Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Cop & Twin Bro “Groom” Victim, 12, Kill Her When She’s Pregnant, Prosecutor

Transcript

Cop & Twin Bro “Groom” Victim, 12, Kill Her When She’s Pregnant, Prosecutor · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Tonight, a Stoughton police officer and his twin brother, also
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: in law enforcement, let that sink in. Two adult identical
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: twin brothers reportedly groom a little girl victim starting age 12,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: then kill her when she becomes pregnant, according to the prosecutor. Repeat.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: A police officer and his twin brother, also an officer,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: groom a little girl starting age 12, then kill her
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: when she becomes pregnant, according to prosecutors. If this is true, repeat,
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: if this is true, may they rot in hell. Good evening.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: thank you for being with us.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Former Stoughton police officer Matthew Farwell met Sandra Birchmore at
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: just 12 years old through a youth mentoring program, allegedly
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: plunging her into a predatory relationship that spanned nearly a decade.
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: When Birchmore, now pregnant, tells Farwell he's the father, the
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: silence that follows is fatal.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: Days later, she's found dead.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: I get a call asking, have I seen Sandra?
• 1:30
  Speaker 4: And no, I haven't seen her yet that day.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Maybe she's not here. Like, no, she hasn't shown up.
• 1:36
  Speaker 5: One of the secretaries kept trying to call her.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: I think it went straight to voicemail.
• 1:40
  Speaker 5: The school resource officer that we worked with, that school
• 1:44
  Speaker 5: resource officer, then tried to get the ball rolling.
• 1:46
  Speaker 6: So the two officers walk in.
• 1:47
  Speaker 7: They later note that they walked through a kitchen that
• 1:50
  Speaker 7: was very untidy.
• 1:50
  Speaker 8: There was no sign of a break-in. And then they
• 1:52
  Speaker 8: make their way into a bedroom.
• 2:03
  Speaker 7: Where there is this young woman. She has the strap
• 2:06
  Speaker 7: of a duffel bag wrapped around her neck. To the
• 2:08
  Speaker 7: responding officers, this just looked like somebody who had taken
• 2:12
  Speaker 7: their own life.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: From our friends at Dateline, started grooming her at age 12,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: mentoring her. Wait, let me understand this too. Vanessa Walzer
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: joining us. She's the star of Unmasked True Crime. This
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: little girl was, let's just say, a crime aficionado. She
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: wanted to grow up to be, you know, like a
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: forensics investigator, something to do with crime. She was obsessed
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: with law enforcement. She's part of some program. Look at her,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: little 12-year-old girl wearing a police badge. Is that how
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: these two identical twin brothers, cops at Stoughton Police, that's
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: how they meet her? Help me.
• 3:00
  Speaker 9: Yes, Nancy.
• 3:01
  Speaker 5: Sandra joined the Police Explorers program when she was just
• 3:04
  Speaker 5: 12 years old.
• 3:05
  Speaker 10: She was struggling in school. She had ADHD. She had
• 3:08
  Speaker 10: trouble making friends.
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: So her mom thought it would be a great idea
• 3:11
  Speaker 5: to enroll her in this program where she could get
• 3:14
  Speaker 5: some guidance and meet some positive role models.
• 3:17
  Speaker 10: And Matthew Farwell.
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: Was one of them.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Sorry, Vanessa. Vanessa.
• 3:20
  Speaker 11: Yes.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: You've got us all drinking from the fire hydrant. Everything
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: that you just said is extremely important. I've got to
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: get my mind off the fact that these two cops
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: are identical twins and they're both in law enforcement, which
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: adds a whole other layer of creepy that they're identical twins,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: plus a lot of evidentiary problems that I can't imagine
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Josh Coles Road isn't going to shove three inches up
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: my tailpipe. But that said, Vanessa, hold on. You said
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: problems in school and you said ADHD. Now, those two
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: can be mutually exclusive. So, Was she really having problems
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: in school? If so, what problems? And were they because
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: of the ADHD or what? Or is it because she
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: couldn't make friends?
• 4:02
  Speaker 10: It was both.
• 4:03
  Speaker 5: It's reported that she did have diagnosed ADHD, that she
• 4:07
  Speaker 5: was in special education, that she was struggling making friends,
• 4:11
  Speaker 5: but she did have the dream of becoming a police
• 4:13
  Speaker 5: officer and she really looked up to police officers. So
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: her mom thought this would be a great opportunity to
• 4:19
  Speaker 5: have her meet some of these role models and get
• 4:23
  Speaker 5: some guidance, and that it would be a great opportunity
• 4:26
  Speaker 5: for her to maybe come out of her shell a
• 4:27
  Speaker 5: little bit. And of course, as we know, that is
• 4:30
  Speaker 5: not perfect.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: Hold on, Vanessa. Hold on. Hold on. I'm going to
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: follow up on what you're saying. And please don't lose
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: your thought. But I got to go straight to Dr.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall on this. Renowned psychoanalyst. You can see her
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: on Bravo, Hulu, Peacock, and I'm sure many other places.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: She's a star on the couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: And you can find her at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany... Why
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: is it always the little girl that's being bullied, the
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: one that doesn't fit in, the one that isn't a
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: classical beauty, a classic beauty? I'm thinking about Nicole Lovell.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Do you remember her? 13 years old. And she was
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: groomed by David Eisenhower, who was valedictorian at his high school,
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: his private high school, goes on making all A's in
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: engineering at a college school. and lures this 13-year-old girl
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: and then kills her so she will not reveal their relationship.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: She didn't fit in. She didn't make friends easily. And
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: she was approached by David Eisenhower and ends up dead
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: with her body wiped down with wet wipes on the
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: side of the road. This little girl, so cute. but
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: whether because of ADHD or some other reason, quote, didn't
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: fit in with the plastics, a.k.a. the populars.
• 5:55
  Speaker 12: You know, Nancy, predators pick on these types of children
• 5:58
  Speaker 12: simply because they do not have friends. They're not going
• 6:01
  Speaker 12: to tell on anybody. They do have attentional difficulties, and
• 6:05
  Speaker 12: because of that, they want to just soak in the
• 6:07
  Speaker 12: love of any adult who shows them attention. But I
• 6:11
  Speaker 12: have another idea about this, Nancy, which is that trauma...
• 6:15
  Speaker 12: can also create an ADHD type picture. A lot of
• 6:19
  Speaker 12: times when we have adults who come to therapy who
• 6:21
  Speaker 12: present with poor attentional abilities are being predated upon, are
• 6:25
  Speaker 12: being molested, do have a trauma history in their life. Also,
• 6:30
  Speaker 12: predators isolate their prey, their victims from other people. So
• 6:35
  Speaker 12: whatever she came into these predatory relationships with, they just
• 6:39
  Speaker 12: exacerbated the problem. The mother wanted her to make friends
• 6:43
  Speaker 12: and excel And these twins took her symptom, twisted the knife,
• 6:50
  Speaker 12: exacerbated it, and made everything that was going on in
• 6:53
  Speaker 12: her life even worse.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: Okay, before we move one step further, I've just got
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: to show you, I've got a stack full of texts
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: between the little girl and the cops. This says it all.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Hope you're sitting down, Colesrood. From Sandra. I had butterflies
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: so bad the day you took my virginity. Response from
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: the cop. Me too. It was such a big day.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Still know the date to this day. That's a date
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: I'll never forget. April 10, 2013. Best day of my life.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: Smiley face. Me too. Put up Colesrood. Colesrood. Josh Colesrood.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: Veteran defense attorney. founder of Colesrood Law Offices. He knows
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: better because he was a former assistant U.S. attorney and
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: he's got a new book, The Criminal Lawyer's Guide to
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: Immigration Law. Colesrood, did you see the text?
• 7:56
  Speaker 13: Yes.
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: Me too.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: She says, I'll never forget. He says, me too. I
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: bet he won't because now it's in writing.
• 8:04
  Speaker 6: It's certainly damning evidence to say the least about, you know,
• 8:09
  Speaker 6: a an inappropriate relationship to say the least between an
• 8:14
  Speaker 6: adult and a minor child. And it wasn't just between Matt,
• 8:20
  Speaker 6: the defendant, it was also with his twin brother. And
• 8:23
  Speaker 6: that kind of gives the prosecution some trouble here, because
• 8:26
  Speaker 6: if you remember in the prosecution's opening statement, they did
• 8:30
  Speaker 6: something they're not supposed to do, which is they over-promised.
• 8:34
  Speaker 6: And they over-promised about what their evidence means. Specifically, the
• 8:39
  Speaker 6: DNA evidence. They said that Matt's DNA was found on
• 8:44
  Speaker 6: the ligature around her neck and also her underwear. But
• 8:48
  Speaker 6: as we all know, especially because we watch your show,
• 8:51
  Speaker 6: that identical twins have the same exact DNA and it's.
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: Indistinguishable for those tests.
• 8:58
  Speaker 6: And what makes this even more difficult, Nancy, is that
• 9:02
  Speaker 6: the DNA that was identified as Matt's per the prosecution
• 9:06
  Speaker 6: is was discovered through what's called YSTR DNA, which is
• 9:10
  Speaker 6: a little bit less precise than other tests because it
• 9:13
  Speaker 6: only identifies people that are related.
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: Genetically with their father's line.
• 9:19
  Speaker 6: And here, even if it was a fraternal brother, you
• 9:22
  Speaker 6: can't distinguish brothers on a YSTR DNA test. And this
• 9:27
  Speaker 6: case has huge holes in it. And that's not even
• 9:29
  Speaker 6: to talk about what the law is. So this isn't
• 9:32
  Speaker 6: an ordinary murder case. So, you know, for those who
• 9:35
  Speaker 6: don't know, this is a federal case. And, you know,
• 9:38
  Speaker 6: in federal law, there isn't just an ordinary murder statute.
• 9:42
  Speaker 6: You have to add a twist to it to make
• 9:45
  Speaker 6: it a federal case. Otherwise, this would be a state case.
• 9:48
  Speaker 6: So here the prosecution is saying, well, this person was
• 9:51
  Speaker 6: murdered because the intent was to prevent.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm sorry. Are you still talking about DNA? Because
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: I've got texts. You just go on. and you tell
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: that jury, guess what? They're identical twins, so we don't
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: really know whose DNA it was. How about this? Try
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: this on, Colesrood. How far are you? Regardless of how far,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: we're keeping it but three and a half weeks, which
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: means I can see this month. Uh, okay, we'll need
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: to talk then. Response, that's obvious, and the birth certificate
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: is being signed. Okay, so, you know, you can drone
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: on all you want to, Colesrood. And yes, you're right.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: I had the same exact problem in a case I prosecuted.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Three co-defendants, one tall guy, 14, 6'6, Breaks into a
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: pawn shop. Gets a handful of dope ropes, gold chains. Actually,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: he was 13 when he did it. He turned 14
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: while I was trying him. Shot one guy dead. Shot
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: another lady she lived. Shot another guy. Put him in
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: a wheelchair with a colostomy bag for the rest of
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: his life. And his co-defendants were two little bitty identical twins.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: I think they were Aaron and Arthur. Can I tell you?
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: How much I learned about identical twin DNA that I
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: never wanted to know during that trial. Of course, they
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: were severed. But that said, you're right about DNA. There
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: is a DNA problem when you've got identical twins. But
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: not when you're identical twins. Adult male cup identical twins.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: Law enforcement leave a written trail of what they're doing.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: And you start this off saying, An inappropriate relationship. My
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: rear end, inappropriate.
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: There's another angle here, Nancy.
• 11:52
  Speaker 6: And that is, you know, we have to look into
• 11:54
  Speaker 6: the window of who this victim was.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: And let's be frank. I'm sorry.
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: You made me choke on my hot tea. Are we
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: victim shaming? The then 12-year-old little girl?
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: No, we're talking about suicide.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: What?
• 12:09
  Speaker 6: Is this a suicide case or is this a murder case?
• 12:13
  Speaker 6: And you have to look at, you know, who this
• 12:15
  Speaker 6: person was on the day that she died.
• 12:17
  Speaker 3: You know, was she a happy.
• 12:20
  Speaker 6: Person looking forward to the rest of her life, like
• 12:22
  Speaker 6: the prosecution says, or was she a very troubled young
• 12:26
  Speaker 6: lady who had suicidal tendencies that came to fruition?
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: So here's what we know.
• 12:33
  Speaker 6: That she coerced the defendant into having sex with her.
• 12:38
  Speaker 6: She coerced him into impregnating her. And coercive sex in
• 12:42
  Speaker 6: most jurisdictions... I'm sorry.
• 12:44
  Speaker 9: Hold on.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Hold on. Wait, wait, wait, wait. I zoned out one moment.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: I was reading the text when he, the cop, is saying,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: you are truly the worst person on the face of
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: the earth.
• 12:53
  Speaker 10: I have.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: This is the adult bent over backwards for you. Now
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: you want to act like this was some free will decision.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: You've threatened me from the word go. If I didn't
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: do and give you what you wanted, you would ruin me.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: I made a deal with you and you change the
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: terms at every turn. We will deal with this tomorrow.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: And guess what? She ends up dead. I was reading that. Now,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: what were you saying about the bad character of the
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: 12 year old?
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: She desperately wanted to have a baby. And that's not
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: normal behavior.
• 13:24
  Speaker 6: That's behavior of somebody who has a very troubled life,
• 13:27
  Speaker 6: a very troubled past. And she had suicidal ideations on
• 13:31
  Speaker 6: the day that she died. And the prosecution, unfortunately, said
• 13:35
  Speaker 6: that she didn't. And when a prosecutor says something that
• 13:38
  Speaker 6: we all know is not true, you better watch your.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: Wallets because they're trying to sell you something. Better watch
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: your wallets?
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Okay. This is more than about money, Colesrood. More than
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: about money.
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: You know what?
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: We have jumped so far ahead. Let's go back in
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: chronological order about what happened, and I will deal with
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: everything you just said, Colesrood. But you can't fight. Unless
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: you want to challenge these texts somehow, and you know
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: how to do it, you tried a lot of cases,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: and keep them out of evidence, and there are ways
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: to do that, then he's... Technical legal term, screwed. Screwed. Okay,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: back to Vanessa Walsh. Vanessa, sorry about that little detour
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: with Coles Road. It's totally my fault, but I'm pleading
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: the fifth. Vanessa, pick it up from where the 12-year-old
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: little girl was a law enforcement crime aficionado. She gets
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: into some mentoring program. Her mom thought it would help
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: her make friends, and she made two very unwanted friends,
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: two adult male identical twin police officers. Yes.
• 14:47
  Speaker 5: So after she joined the Explorer program, of course, Matthew
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: Farwell was one of the officers and an instructor in
• 14:53
  Speaker 5: the program, and he started grooming her. It started with
• 14:56
  Speaker 5: him reaching out to her on Facebook, and then he
• 15:00
  Speaker 5: would meet her at the library under the guise of
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: helping her with her homework. And from there, prosecutors say
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: it escalated to statutory rape. And as disturbing as the
• 15:09
  Speaker 5: text message you just showed are, it actually is much
• 15:12
  Speaker 5: darker than that. Because Matthew Farwell would threaten Sandra with
• 15:17
  Speaker 5: sexual violence and sexual punishment if she didn't comply with
• 15:20
  Speaker 5: what he wanted her to do and follow his rules.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Hold on, Vanessa. What specifically were the threats?
• 15:29
  Speaker 10: So let me give you an example.
• 15:31
  Speaker 14: If Sandra would get bad grades, if she would refuse
• 15:35
  Speaker 14: to share her location, which is something that Matthew Farwell
• 15:39
  Speaker 14: required her to do, he would actually threaten her with
• 15:42
  Speaker 14: forced violence.
• 15:43
  Speaker 10: Very degrading sexual acts.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm sorry, Vanessa. Could you just look around? Look around.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Are you in pre-K? Are you in kindergarten? No, you're
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: on Crime Stories. What degrading acts? Be specific.
• 16:01
  Speaker 5: Okay, so specifically, he would threaten her for forced sex
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: if she did not comply with his demands.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: Okay, Vanessa, we'll probably have to beat what you just said,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: but I think everyone gets the gist of what, with
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: what this child was threatened. David Sarney joining us, former
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: NYPD detective, 27 years, professor, John Jay College, criminal justice, Insta,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: DS on the media. David Sarney, whenever I hear about
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: law enforcement's misdeeds, that's certainly putting perfume on the pig.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: doing something wrong, it's like a kick in the teeth
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: to me because we are supposed to be beyond reproach.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Our whole family is supposed to be beyond reproach. They're
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: not supposed to ever do anything wrong, right? Because you
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: are held to a higher standard and you accept that.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: Does it hurt you more when a member of law
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: enforcement does something despicable?
• 17:10
  Speaker 15: Well, as this investigation has gone, I was a teacher
• 17:13
  Speaker 15: before I became a cop. And 27 years on the job,
• 17:17
  Speaker 15: seven or eight years as a teacher, it disgusts me
• 17:20
  Speaker 15: personally on seeing somebody taking their role as a leader
• 17:25
  Speaker 15: and a mentor to do what they did to a child.
• 17:28
  Speaker 16: And reality is there's no force that she is doing.
• 17:31
  Speaker 16: She is underage. She cannot consent due to age. That's
• 17:35
  Speaker 16: the one thing. When you do this and you see
• 17:38
  Speaker 16: this happen as a law enforcement officer, retired or not,
• 17:42
  Speaker 16: you're disgusted by the behavior. It's embarrassing that this person
• 17:46
  Speaker 16: ever held a shield, swore an oath to uphold the law.
• 17:51
  Speaker 16: I am beyond, when I read this case and going
• 17:54
  Speaker 16: through it, it disgusts me on every level possible.
• 17:58
  Speaker 12: But what the.
• 17:59
  Speaker 16: Problem is about this case is the initial response and
• 18:03
  Speaker 16: the investigation that started this You're dealing with the girl
• 18:06
  Speaker 16: who was part of your police department as an explorer.
• 18:09
  Speaker 16: The investigation could have been better handled. I think there
• 18:14
  Speaker 16: was a lot of confirmation bias. And as the investigation turned,
• 18:19
  Speaker 16: it should have been moved off of the police department
• 18:22
  Speaker 16: and gone to this, you know, go another route to
• 18:25
  Speaker 16: another department.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: To Vanessa Walzer joining us, she's the star of Unmasked
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: True Crime. Vanessa. Vanessa. What happens next? So they're mentoring her.
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: Her mom probably has no idea what's going on. And
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: what happens next? How does the identical twin brother get involved?
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: So Matthew's twin brother, William, also admitted to having a
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: two-year sexual relationship with Sandra as when she was an adult.
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: They had multiple sexual encounters when he was on the
• 19:01
  Speaker 5: job as well, exchanged explicit text messages.
• 19:05
  Speaker 10: And also photos. So her and Matthew would go kind
• 19:10
  Speaker 10: of on and off, I guess.
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: And it was well known and documented that Matthew would
• 19:16
  Speaker 5: push her off on his friends, including his brother, and
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: encourage her to be with other people as well.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: What do you mean push her off on his friends?
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Do you mean pass her around for sex? Is that
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: what you're trying to say?
• 19:28
  Speaker 10: Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to say.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: Okay. I'm having a hard time queuing and aying with myself, Vanessa. Okay,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: back to the facts. To Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us,
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: the chief medical examiner out of Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: That's not an easy position to obtain. He's a star
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: of Mayhem in the Morgue on YouTube. He is an
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: and has performed over 10,000 autopsies and physical exams. Dr.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Kendall Crowns, there's no way at this juncture to tell
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: if she had been raped, is there?
• 20:10
  Speaker 8: You can do the examination of the body and you
• 20:12
  Speaker 8: can tell evidence of sexual activity. Whether it is from
• 20:16
  Speaker 8: a sexual assault or consensual sex is difficult to say
• 20:20
  Speaker 8: because there can be changes seen in both that mimic
• 20:25
  Speaker 8: each other. So to say that she was sexually assaulted
• 20:28
  Speaker 8: is difficult to say from just evaluating the autopsy. She
• 20:32
  Speaker 8: could have had consensual sex and still had injuries from it.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: So at this juncture... That likely cannot be proven post-mortem,
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: but since we have a baby in utero and we
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: have these texts and we know her age, that in
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: itself could establish sex with an underage child. Now, I
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: want to get to the death. You heard Josh Colesrood,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: veteran defense attorney, Ray suspect her that she wasn't killed,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: that she committed suicide.
• 21:13
  Speaker 7: So the two officers walk in. They later note that
• 21:16
  Speaker 7: they walked through a kitchen that was very untidy. There
• 21:19
  Speaker 7: was no sign of a break-in. And then they make
• 21:21
  Speaker 7: their way into a bedroom where there is this young woman.
• 21:25
  Speaker 7: She has the strap of a duffel bag wrapped around
• 21:27
  Speaker 7: her neck. To the responding officers, this just looked like
• 21:30
  Speaker 7: somebody who had taken their own life.
• 21:32
  Speaker 15: Did she seem in any way she would ever inflict
• 21:36
  Speaker 15: self-harm again?
• 21:37
  Speaker 9: Absolutely not. She was excited and thrilled about the baby.
• 21:42
  Speaker 9: She was going to go to nursing school. She was
• 21:45
  Speaker 9: ready to move on. And she wanted that baby. And
• 21:49
  Speaker 9: she wanted to make a life for that baby.
• 21:51
  Speaker 11: They knew that she was excited about having this baby.
• 21:55
  Speaker 11: She was just over the top. To think that she
• 21:58
  Speaker 11: committed suicide at that point in her life is just,
• 22:03
  Speaker 11: it was unbelievable to me and to her family.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: From Dateline, CBS, WCVB. So according to witnesses, she was
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: not suicidal. To Dave Mack, Crime Stories investigative reporter on
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: the case from the get-go, what suggests it was or
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: was not suicide?
• 22:22
  Speaker 17: It became apparent that it just wasn't the way this was.
• 22:27
  Speaker 17: death would occur as a suicide she had a buckle
• 22:31
  Speaker 17: mark in her chest nancy and it was the buckle
• 22:35
  Speaker 17: mark that was from the strap on the bag that
• 22:39
  Speaker 17: was around her neck so that was one of the
• 22:42
  Speaker 17: biggest things right off the bat because that couldn't happen
• 22:45
  Speaker 17: there wouldn't be this belt mark in her middle of
• 22:48
  Speaker 17: her chest and with that same strap wrapped around her
• 22:51
  Speaker 17: neck as a means of dying. So that was one
• 22:55
  Speaker 17: of the first things that jumped right out of the investigation.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: Could you explain that more carefully for me, Vanessa Walsh?
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: I think he's right. There was the buckle imprint on
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: her chest. Explain that, please.
• 23:10
  Speaker 5: There was a contusion on her chest that was a
• 23:13
  Speaker 5: patterned injury. And they suggested that that matched the buckle
• 23:17
  Speaker 5: on the strap that was around her neck. And what's
• 23:19
  Speaker 5: interesting about that is that when she was found, that
• 23:22
  Speaker 5: buckle was up near her right ear. So the question was,
• 23:27
  Speaker 5: how would she have that imprint down on her chest
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: if she was found where it was up by her ear?
• 23:33
  Speaker 5: And that also went for the abrasions on her face.
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: And there was also a broken necklace that had a
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: clump of her hair tangled in it that was found
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: on the bedroom floor.
• 23:44
  Speaker 6: Mr.
• 23:44
  Speaker 18: Farwell, it is alleged in these court papers, started to
• 23:46
  Speaker 18: lose his patience, lose his temper, and the 6-foot-4-inch Mr.
• 23:51
  Speaker 18: Farwell started to be physically violent with 4-foot-10-inch Senator Birchmore.
• 23:57
  Speaker 18: And Senator Birchmore told her friends that Mr. Farwell had
• 24:01
  Speaker 18: pushed her and shoved her and put her in a chokehold.
• 24:05
  Speaker 18: She was scared. And during that same time, Mr. Farwell
• 24:10
  Speaker 18: was allegedly planning Senator Birchmore's murder. For the first time,
• 24:14
  Speaker 18: he requested a key to her apartment. And she told
• 24:17
  Speaker 18: friends that he was oddly inspecting the apartment and looking
• 24:21
  Speaker 18: at the closet, including the closet that she was found
• 24:23
  Speaker 18: dead in front of. We allege that Sandra Birchmore survived
• 24:28
  Speaker 18: years of grooming, statutory rape, and then sexual violence, all
• 24:33
  Speaker 18: at the hands of Matthew Farwell, who was employed throughout
• 24:36
  Speaker 18: their relationship as an officer and then detective for the
• 24:40
  Speaker 18: Stoughton Police Department. And when it became clear to Mr.
• 24:43
  Speaker 18: Farwell that he could no longer control Sandra Birchmore, he
• 24:47
  Speaker 18: allegedly silenced her permanently. Then it all came to a
• 24:51
  Speaker 18: head on February 1st, 2021.
• 24:53
  Speaker 14: Mr.
• 24:53
  Speaker 18: Farwell went over to her apartment that evening and he
• 24:56
  Speaker 18: strangled Sandra Birchmore to death. That's the allegation in this case.
• 25:02
  Speaker 18: And he used his knowledge and experience as a law
• 25:04
  Speaker 18: enforcement officer to stage her death to look like a suicide.
• 25:10
  Speaker 18: He allegedly attempted to cover his tracks to literally try
• 25:14
  Speaker 18: and get away with murder.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: That is the U.S. Attorney Joshua Levy to Dr. Kendall
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: Crowns joining us, the Chief Medical Examiner, Tarrant County. What
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: would you be looking for to determine if it was
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: suicide or murder?
• 25:32
  Speaker 8: So the main thing is looking at the ligature impression
• 25:34
  Speaker 8: around the neck with a hanging leg. Typically, what you'll
• 25:38
  Speaker 8: see is a upward V-shaped structure because it goes to
• 25:43
  Speaker 8: a suspension point. It's around the neck. So you'll get
• 25:46
  Speaker 8: this kind of upward V look to the ligature. With
• 25:50
  Speaker 8: a strangulation, you don't see that. It's usually kind of
• 25:53
  Speaker 8: straight across the back. It'll pull into the hair and
• 25:56
  Speaker 8: things of that nature. Also, with the description of other injuries,
• 26:00
  Speaker 8: a bruise on the chest that looks like a belt buckle,
• 26:03
  Speaker 8: abrasions on the face, A necklace that has hair in
• 26:07
  Speaker 8: it that could have been pulled off. You have signs
• 26:10
  Speaker 8: of a potential struggle at the scene as well. So
• 26:13
  Speaker 8: you want to take into context to the scene findings.
• 26:16
  Speaker 8: Does it look like there was a fight? Chairs overturned,
• 26:18
  Speaker 8: things of that nature. And then look at the actual
• 26:21
  Speaker 8: injury itself. Does it match the ligature that's present about
• 26:26
  Speaker 8: the neck? Does it have this upward V shape or
• 26:29
  Speaker 8: is it going straight back? Does it involve the hair?
• 26:32
  Speaker 8: There's a number of things that you're wanting to look
• 26:34
  Speaker 8: for to differentiate between a suicide and a homicide.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: It's interesting that the MOD, manner of death, was changed
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: from suicide. Now, at the beginning, the police force automatically
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: on the scene said this is a suicide. What do
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: you believe went into the medical examiner's decision to change
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: the MOD from suicide?
• 27:00
  Speaker 8: So the problem is, is medical examiners are often reliant
• 27:04
  Speaker 8: on the police force to help with the investigation and
• 27:07
  Speaker 8: gather scene evidence to make the determination of manner of death.
• 27:11
  Speaker 8: So with all this information coming out that the police
• 27:13
  Speaker 8: were involved with her extensively and may have altered the
• 27:18
  Speaker 8: scene or given misinformation, I'm sure the medical examiner has
• 27:21
  Speaker 8: re-evaluated everything after their initial information and now has come
• 27:26
  Speaker 8: out with this new determination.
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: Well, how often... does a medical examiner change their MOD
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: mode of death?
• 27:37
  Speaker 8: Manner of death, not very often. You usually will have
• 27:41
  Speaker 8: the information you need and you can determine manner of
• 27:44
  Speaker 8: death at that time. And very rarely does new information
• 27:48
  Speaker 8: come to light that makes you change the manner of death.
• 27:51
  Speaker 8: It's not a very common occurrence.
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: To Vanessa Walsh, I want you to hear this, Dr. Kendall-Crowns.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: What led to the determination by the feds. And I'm
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: interested why the feds have to take this case. Would
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: nobody local take the case? They couldn't bring in independent
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: prosecutors to handle it? Or did they just not want
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: to prosecute their own? That said, what leads federal prosecutors
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: to state that this was a homicide, not a suicide?
• 28:21
  Speaker 5: Federal investigators came into this case in 2023. And they
• 28:25
  Speaker 5: went back and went through all of the text messages
• 28:28
  Speaker 5: that were on Sandra's devices that clearly illustrated that there
• 28:33
  Speaker 5: was an eight-year sexual relationship or sexual contact between Matthew
• 28:39
  Speaker 5: Farwell and Sandra. They also interviewed witnesses. And obviously, when
• 28:44
  Speaker 5: they were done conducting their investigation, they came to a
• 28:47
  Speaker 5: very different conclusion than the state.
• 28:53
  Speaker 13: Did. Dr.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: Kendall Crowns. What else, in your opinion, as a chief
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: medical examiner, would lend toward homicide versus suicide?
• 29:08
  Speaker 8: So one of the main things is the fact that
• 29:10
  Speaker 8: it's a backpack strap. So it's a wide surface area
• 29:13
  Speaker 8: across the neck. So that means the force is distributed
• 29:17
  Speaker 8: more evenly. And she has a hyoid bone fracture, which
• 29:21
  Speaker 8: is a U-shaped bone in your neck. That commonly is
• 29:25
  Speaker 8: infractured in non-suspension type suicides. She's seated, so she's not
• 29:31
  Speaker 8: hanging with her feet dangling. So there's not all this
• 29:33
  Speaker 8: pressure going into her neck, potentially snapping her hyoid bone. Also,
• 29:37
  Speaker 8: she's young. The hyoid bone is very cartilaginous. at her
• 29:41
  Speaker 8: age so it's very rubbery and usually doesn't snap so
• 29:44
  Speaker 8: when we see it broken in this situation she's sitting
• 29:48
  Speaker 8: down a big strap hanging not suspension broken hyoid bone
• 29:54
  Speaker 8: it makes you think of potentially a manual strangulation or
• 29:57
  Speaker 8: a ligature strangulation where there's an intense amount of pressure
• 30:00
  Speaker 8: put on her neck and it would break her hyoid bone. Again,
• 30:04
  Speaker 8: she's very young, so it's very odd that her hyoid
• 30:07
  Speaker 8: bone is broken. And to me, that really points towards
• 30:10
  Speaker 8: more of a ligature strangulation or potentially a manual strangulation.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: What about the fact that her necklace was broken during
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: her death and was found hanging down on her chest
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: and that her hair was was all twisted up in
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: the necklace. What, if anything, does that mean?
• 30:29
  Speaker 8: Again, that's very odd that her necklace is broken and
• 30:32
  Speaker 8: torn off her body with the hair stuck in it.
• 30:35
  Speaker 8: Because usually in a hanging, it's just you lean into the,
• 30:38
  Speaker 8: especially when you're sitting, you lean into that ligature. It
• 30:42
  Speaker 8: pulls up, clips off the jugular and carotid and kills you.
• 30:46
  Speaker 8: It's not very active. And that jewelry being ripped with
• 30:51
  Speaker 8: the hair matted in it, to me, makes it sound
• 30:54
  Speaker 8: very much like there was some sort of active movement
• 30:56
  Speaker 8: going on that caused her to have the jewelry torn
• 31:00
  Speaker 8: off her neck.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Not only that, Dr. Kendall Crowns, I know this is
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: outside your belly wick, but I'm sure you've heard these
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: arguments made. Not only the physicalities of her death, but
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: her emotional state just before her strangulation, asphyxiation, death, suggests
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: she was not suicidal. Ms.
• 31:21
  Speaker 6: Birchmore?
• 31:22
  Speaker 18: Was very excited about becoming a mother, buying baby clothes
• 31:27
  Speaker 18: and other items, taking precautions to ensure the health of
• 31:30
  Speaker 18: her new child. Santa Birchmore had good friends, she had
• 31:35
  Speaker 18: a good job, she had dreams of becoming a nurse,
• 31:38
  Speaker 18: and she had a child on the way.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: But Mr.
• 31:40
  Speaker 18: Farwell did not share in that excitement.
• 31:42
  Speaker 3: It's alleged that Mr.
• 31:43
  Speaker 18: Farwell reacted quite negatively to the news that Santa Birchmore
• 31:48
  Speaker 18: was pregnant with his child. And he acted angrily it
• 31:52
  Speaker 18: is alleged, and Santa Birchmore started making requests of Mr.
• 31:54
  Speaker 18: Farwell around doctor's appointments and ultrasounds and what information would
• 31:59
  Speaker 18: be on the birth certificate.
• 32:00
  Speaker 7: Mr.
• 32:00
  Speaker 18: Farwell was losing control in late 2020, early 2021, and
• 32:04
  Speaker 18: the information that Santa Birchmore possessed about his illegal conduct
• 32:09
  Speaker 18: was in danger of slipping out. In fact, word started
• 32:12
  Speaker 18: to get out about their relationship. Less than two weeks
• 32:16
  Speaker 18: before she was found dead, someone called the Stoughton Police
• 32:19
  Speaker 18: Department and disclosed that Matthew Farwell had had a relationship
• 32:23
  Speaker 18: with Sandra Birchmore.
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: And when Mr.
• 32:25
  Speaker 18: Farwell learned about that, that call, he became visibly angry.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: Dr. Bethany Marshall, she was reportedly excited about having the
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: baby and looking forward to having the baby. And when
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: she was texting the officer, the defendant in this case,
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: along with his twin brother, whole other layer of disgusting,
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: there was never a discussion ever about her self-harming.
• 32:52
  Speaker 12: No, Nancy. I think if we go way back when
• 32:55
  Speaker 12: she was 12 years old and being groomed, she probably
• 32:58
  Speaker 12: was laboring under the misconception that this could be a
• 33:01
  Speaker 12: true relationship. So when she becomes pregnant, her attachment shifts
• 33:07
  Speaker 12: from the perpetrator, Matthew, to the baby. Now she's excited.
• 33:12
  Speaker 12: She's thinking about a life with this baby. According to
• 33:14
  Speaker 12: one report, she told about 80 people. So His control
• 33:20
  Speaker 12: was slipping, Nancy. And we know that women who are
• 33:22
  Speaker 12: who are pregnant are at a greater risk for homicide
• 33:25
  Speaker 12: because often the fathers do not want to take up
• 33:28
  Speaker 12: the responsibility of paternity. His cover was going to be blown.
• 33:32
  Speaker 12: I mean, Nancy, for him, she was out of control.
• 33:36
  Speaker 11: Right.
• 33:37
  Speaker 12: He was losing control. And remember, he's married. He has
• 33:40
  Speaker 12: three children. He has a job. I think at this point,
• 33:44
  Speaker 12: he just really wanted her out of the way. But Nancy,
• 33:47
  Speaker 12: back to suicidal ideation, you're not going to be suicidal
• 33:51
  Speaker 12: if you're planning to go to nursing school, if you're
• 33:53
  Speaker 12: planning to have a baby, if you're planning like baby showers,
• 33:57
  Speaker 12: things like that. That's really believing in a bright and
• 34:00
  Speaker 12: optimistic future, which is correlated with happiness. That's one of
• 34:04
  Speaker 12: the six traits of indicators of happiness, is believing in
• 34:08
  Speaker 12: a bright and optimistic future, which gave me hope that
• 34:11
  Speaker 12: she was going to recover from this horrible situation, that
• 34:14
  Speaker 12: she had resiliency. But then he cut her life short
• 34:17
  Speaker 12: once again.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Another disgusting reality is it's not just the one police
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: officer and his twin brother, but it's their friend. There
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: are three adult males that we know of, allegedly, having
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: sex with the minor, now dead.
• 34:37
  Speaker 19: All three men, the Fawa brothers and Devine, violated their
• 34:43
  Speaker 19: oaths of office and should never have the privilege of
• 34:49
  Speaker 19: serving any community as a police officer. Through a sustained
• 34:55
  Speaker 19: and deliberate combination of lies, deceit, and treachery, they violated
• 35:03
  Speaker 19: the policies and the core values of the Stoughton Police Department.
• 35:09
  Speaker 19: Not to mention human decency.
• 35:12
  Speaker 4: Nancy, we need to be clear that in the Sandra
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: Birchmore case, all three former Stoughton Police Department officers, Matthew Farwell,
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: his twin brother William Farwell, and Robert C. Devine, who
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: was chief deputy, they've all left the department. And there
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: is an important distinction. Matthew and William resigned. Devine retired.
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: Matthew Farwell resigned while he was on paid administrative leave.
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: His twin brother William resigned while an internal investigation was underway.
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: He denied the allegations of misconduct. Meanwhile, Robert Devine, he
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: retired from the department and is denied having a personal
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: relationship with Birchmore. The departures occurred during, in the midst of,
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: an internal investigation into the officer's relationships with Sandra Birchmore,
• 35:59
  Speaker 4: who they had all known through the Explorer Post. A
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: department report that was released in September of 2022 found
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: that all three men had engaged in inappropriate relationships with
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: Birchmore and criticized their conduct. The men disputed the allegations
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: of wrongdoing. Matthew Farwell later charged federally with Birchmore's murder.
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: He's on trial now. William Farwell admitted to having a
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: sexual relationship with Birchmore after she reached the age of consent.
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: This is according to reporting on the case. He has
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: not been charged. with a crime in connection with her death.
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: And Robert Devine, the former deputy chief, retired and subsequently
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: faced separate professional disciplinary proceedings over alleged misconduct. He denies
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: those allegations.
• 36:43
  Speaker 13: These men knew who they were dealing with, an innocent
• 36:47
  Speaker 13: girl who was just looking for love and attention. And
• 36:50
  Speaker 13: she didn't have an appropriate male figure in her life
• 36:52
  Speaker 13: because her father wasn't in her life. So these guys
• 36:54
  Speaker 13: became that, but they groomed her and they used that
• 36:56
  Speaker 13: to their advantage.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: CBS Boston and WCVB. Okay, Josh Koolsrud, let's hear your defense.
• 37:08
  Speaker 6: Well, you know, what happened to her was horrible. You know,
• 37:13
  Speaker 6: there's no excuse for any type of sexual exploitation. But
• 37:18
  Speaker 6: you have to look at the facts here that, you know,
• 37:21
  Speaker 6: the defendant in this case is not charged with sexual abuse.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: He's not.
• 37:27
  Speaker 6: He's charged with murdering a witness or victim. So she
• 37:32
  Speaker 6: couldn't testify against him basically. And that's, that's a tough
• 37:37
  Speaker 6: sell because the prosecution has to prove that not only
• 37:43
  Speaker 6: did Matt murder her, but that he did so to
• 37:48
  Speaker 6: prevent her from going to not only law enforcement, but
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: federal law enforcement. So, She wasn't charged, or sorry, he
• 37:58
  Speaker 6: wasn't charged for murder or a state crime. And let's
• 38:01
  Speaker 6: also not forget that only two pathologists looked at her
• 38:07
  Speaker 6: autopsy reports, only two. And both of them concluded at
• 38:10
  Speaker 6: some point that this was a suicide. So three years
• 38:15
  Speaker 6: after the state looked at this case, the FBI took
• 38:19
  Speaker 6: it to their own pathologist who declared that the suicide
• 38:24
  Speaker 6: case was a just and reasonable conclusion.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Hold on just a moment. Let me just throw something
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: to you very quickly as you are going on and
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: on about reasonable conclusions. Let's see that video, please, Control Room.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: Did you know that Farwell's wife gave birth... Oh, there
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: he is. There he is. Oh, it looks like he's
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: trying to cover his face. Hey, COVID's over, buddy. Matthew
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: Farwell's wife gives birth to their baby... just hours after
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Birchmore's death, and observe he's wearing the same clothes, leaving
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: the apartment, leaving Birchmore's apartment, and entering the hospital for
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: birth of his baby with his wife. So, I guess,
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: let's just keep looking at that. He goes in, she's alive.
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: The next time she's seen, she's dead. And he leaves
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: there with her talking about her pregnancy and goes to
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: his wife in the day. room. What a fine fellow
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: he is. So I guess, Coldrood, you just want me
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: to think it's all just a big coinkydink?
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: Well, his story is that he went there and broke
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: up with her.
• 39:44
  Speaker 6: And when you're dealing with somebody who is unstable and
• 39:47
  Speaker 6: you shatter their reality, they can make impulsive decisions, especially
• 39:54
  Speaker 6: when they are a high risk factor for suicide. And
• 39:57
  Speaker 6: we know that she had previous suicidal ideations. We know
• 40:02
  Speaker 6: that the police have come to her house before because
• 40:04
  Speaker 6: she threatened suicide. We know that she was looking up
• 40:08
  Speaker 6: suicidal things on the Internet on the day that she died.
• 40:12
  Speaker 6: So to just push this away and say that suicide
• 40:15
  Speaker 6: was never an option here is not being genuine to
• 40:18
  Speaker 6: the facts of the case.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: So to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall, this is starting when
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: she's 12, a little girl that's now having sex with
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: three adult men all on the police force.
• 40:31
  Speaker 9: Yes.
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't be surprised if she had had suicidal ideation before.
• 40:37
  Speaker 12: Of course, Nancy. You know, she lost her mother when
• 40:40
  Speaker 12: she was 18 years old and her grandmother soon after. She's,
• 40:45
  Speaker 12: from her own subjective experience, in love with a man
• 40:48
  Speaker 12: who's passing her around like a candy bowl to other men.
• 40:51
  Speaker 12: She's in love with a man who is married, has
• 40:54
  Speaker 12: three other children, and a wife in labor in the hospital.
• 40:58
  Speaker 12: I mean, I would be suicidal too. I mean, honestly, probably.
• 41:02
  Speaker 12: she oscillated between feeling like, oh, this is going to
• 41:05
  Speaker 12: be great. I'm going to have the baby. Maybe he'll
• 41:08
  Speaker 12: finally make a commitment to me, to talking to friends
• 41:12
  Speaker 12: who maybe at that point said to her, wow, this
• 41:14
  Speaker 12: is wrong. You have to break away from this guy.
• 41:18
  Speaker 12: She was probably oscillating through all kinds of self-states that
• 41:23
  Speaker 12: were different at different times.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: It's all going to boil down to the physical evidence
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: at trial. If you know or think you know anything
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: regarding this case, please dial 857-386-2000. We remember American hero,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: firefighter Adam Fenseth, Burnsville Fire Department, Minnesota, shot and killed
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: in the line of duty, leaving behind a wife, now widow, Tara,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: and children Liam and Nora. American hero, firefighter Adam Fenseth.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you to our guests, but especially to you for
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: being with us tonight. Nancy Grace signing off for tonight,
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: but I'll see you tomorrow night. And until then, good night, friend.