Latest / The Occult Rejects / Richard Kaczynski- Mind Over Magick

Transcript

Richard Kaczynski- Mind Over Magick · The Occult Rejects

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Something's going to happen?
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: What's going to happen?
• 0:12
  Speaker 3: Thank you? What a.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Occult Rejects. This episode, We've got a
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: very special guest, very excited to have him on. We
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: have Richard Kazinski. But before we get to him, we
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: will introduce the other rejects we got on the show.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: And today we got joining with us. We got the
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: lovely Lisa, the Occult of reject a mad scientist to
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: what is going on? Lisa?
• 0:45
  Speaker 4: How are good? Thank you? Good morning here at least,
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: Thank you Nick for inviting me and looking forward to
• 0:52
  Speaker 4: Toctor Kazynski's talk today and to also discussing with Robbie
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: and Jen as well. Thank you. And the only thing
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: I'd like to plug is vehicle researches to dot org
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: check us out.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Awesome. Thank you very much and I really appreciate you
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: joining us with us. And we got my managin the Ninja.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: What is going on?
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: Sir?
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: How are you? What's up? Boss?
• 1:13
  Speaker 5: Thank you so much for having me, and thank you
• 1:15
  Speaker 5: to Lisa and Robbie and of course doctor Kasinski. I'm
• 1:18
  Speaker 5: quite excited for this. I'm not a tall despite the rumors,
• 1:23
  Speaker 5: but I'm quite interested in the neo gnosticism like the
• 1:27
  Speaker 5: broader cosmology and maybe even ontological perspectives within it. And
• 1:32
  Speaker 5: so if you want to check me out, you can
• 1:34
  Speaker 5: follow me at willcong Reborn to w Uko and g
• 1:36
  Speaker 5: Reborn or at Threshold Saints, which is the show account
• 1:40
  Speaker 5: on both Twitter and ig as well as the True
• 1:43
  Speaker 5: Gray Lodge with a v the True Gray Lodge dot
• 1:45
  Speaker 5: com where you can find us. We're doing a Friday
• 1:48
  Speaker 5: Night Gnostic book club tonight instead of Nastic Mass, so
• 1:51
  Speaker 5: we are reading Kenneth Grant's Night Side of Eden Part one,
• 1:57
  Speaker 5: So yeah, check that out if you're interested, and thank
• 2:01
  Speaker 5: you so much, appreciate it.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: And we got the man himself, the storyteller, Robbie Marx.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: What is going on, sir? How are you?
• 2:08
  Speaker 6: Good morning everybody. It's good to see everybody today. I'm
• 2:11
  Speaker 6: glad to be on with such a good crew and
• 2:14
  Speaker 6: excited to hear what Richard has to say and where
• 2:17
  Speaker 6: we go. My name is rob or Robbie or Robert Marx,
• 2:22
  Speaker 6: and I'm an artist illustrator. I'm working on a book
• 2:25
  Speaker 6: right now. But yeah, if you want to check out
• 2:29
  Speaker 6: my various projects and works, you can go to my
• 2:32
  Speaker 6: link tree which is link tree rarx and that'll pull
• 2:37
  Speaker 6: up everything for you. And yeah, thanks for having me on, Nick.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Of course, Robbie, I really appreciate it. I'm glad you
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: made it. And finally to the guest himself, we got
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: Richard Kazinski. He's a scholar and psychologist. He's got a
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: PhD in social psychology and he is a student of
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: THELIMA since the late nineteen seventies. He's an OTO contributor,
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: editor and lecturer on magic. And today we will be
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: talking about Mind over Magic, The Psychology of Ritual Magic,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: which is one of his newer books. And again I'm
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: very excited to have you on. And please, Richard, anything
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: that I left out, Let people know what you want
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: them to know about you and where they can find
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: any of your amazing one.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: All right, well, I'm perhaps best known as the author
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: of the biography of Alistair Crowley called Perdurabo The Life
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: of Alistair Crowley, and I've also written various other books
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: on Western esotericism, including books like Forgotten Templars, The Unknown
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: Origins of Argo Templear Orientis, which does a deep dive
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: into the odd byways of Masonic history, and how all
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: of that fed into OTO, as well as books like
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: The Wiser Concise Guy to Alistair Crowley and recently the
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: critical edition of Alistair Crowley's early work The Sort of Song,
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: which has been put out in a Delexe edition by
• 3:54
  Speaker 3: your Traditions, who also are a publisher of my newest book,
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: Mind Over Magic as You, which hits the stores on
• 4:02
  Speaker 3: October seventh. So I hope, yeah, you're all inspired to
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: check that out when it comes out.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: Oh for sure, for sure.
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Fun fact, it's a little it's almost embarrassing to mention you,
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: but I did read your book on Alistair Crowley in prison.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: I came across that in prison and read it in
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: the so very good work, thank you.
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: It's a lot, a lot of reading, so hopefully had
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: the spare time to dig into it.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you'd be actually surprised how much the li mix
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: stuff was in the Wow there's a lot here actually yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: it was interesting enough. So yeah, mind over Magic. Uh. Well, first, actually,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: if you don't mind what even got you into the
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: occult world? You know, how did you even start off
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: with that? And how did you end up getting into
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: the OTO? If you know my music.
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: Well as far as the occult world goes, I think
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: we're just something about There was like this perfect storm
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: over who I am and times I grew up in
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: because at the time I was growing up, you know,
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: I remember as a as a very small child, is
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: loving Star Trek and then when heard Nimoy wound up
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: hosting this TV show called In Search of which like
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: this week we show that investigated the weird and the unexplained,
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: from you know, Bigfoot to esp and I, as I Treki,
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: of course, had to watch this. But there were like
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: movies coming out, like those Mysterious Monsters and and you
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: can literally go into the grocery store. The other one
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: by my house, you know, had you know, like The
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: Man Myth and Magic magazine that came out, and I
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: actually one week had my mom buy me The Techniques
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: of High Magic by Francis King and Steven Skinner. So
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: it was just like everywhere. One of my favorite memories
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: is that living in Detroit where I grew up, we
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: were close enough to win to get Canadian television and
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: they had a game show called Beyond Reason and it
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: was kind of like a metaphysical what's my line? They
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: had three people in sound group roof booths, and they
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: would bring in a special guest who would be out
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: of sight, and the three panelists would have sixty seconds
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: ask questions. One was a psychic so they had some
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: personal item of the guest, one was an astrologer who
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: had the birth chart, and one was a palm writer
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: who had a photo of a person's hand. And so
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: they had sixty seconds ask the questions and guests who
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: the guest was. And as you can imagine, sometimes it
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: was uncanny. Sometimes it was just off the left field.
• 6:49
  Speaker 3: They weren't even close. But one thing I remember very
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: clearly is this one time astrologer was looking at this
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: person's chart and saying, and this had nothing to do
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: with why they were famous, saying, oh, I see you
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: had an accident evolving falling off a horse and you're
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: seeing like, you know, a split camera thing, to the
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: panelist going wow, yeah, and you were about fourteen years
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: old at the time and you broke your arm. And
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: this person's like going like, how did you know that?
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: So it was always a lot of fun to tune
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: in and check this stuff out. But again, this kind
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: of stuff was just everywhere when I grew up, and
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: it just fascinated me. And again, obviously everyone who grew
• 7:32
  Speaker 3: up at the same time as me did not know
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: glom onto this stuff the way that I did. But
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: it was just, you know, I just kind of felt
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: like all those things in the culture at that time
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: has kind of funneled me into this direction. And one
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: day I discovered there was a metaphysical bookshop. So I
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: got my bicycle and puddled five miles to the store
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: and got to know the owner, and I picked up
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: a copy of Israel regard as the Golden Dawn, and
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: I came back two weeks later. He said, oh, do
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: you like that? If you did, you might be interested
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: in this, and he pulled out Alistair Croway's Magic in
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: Theory and Practice. You know, again, I'm this fourteen year
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: old kid reading this, going I don't know what this means.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was, you said, did you even understand that?
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: I can't understand it now.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: Well, the thing was, there was this end where he
• 8:21
  Speaker 3: like signs with all his magical mottos and grade symbols
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: and all of that, and I was like, I don't know.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: What this is.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: It was it was like a puzzle that that point
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: was a challenge, Like I am going to I'm going
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: to figure this out, and you know, it's that's going
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: on in that direction ever since Nice.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: You know, it's kind of interesting, like you're saying, though
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: at the time you grew up, I even feel like
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: that was like even most of the people in this
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: panel all around the same age. I feel like the
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: time that we grew up, there was like something I
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: don't know if there was, like people are having their
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: own magical experiences and they were creating and putting magic
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: out there themselves. But it's like I feel like certain times,
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: is there certain things going on that like maybe us
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: as kids there was something in the air that we
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: caught onto and it just made us like search for something.
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: You know, we caught we felt that magic, but what
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: is it?
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: And search There were just like dozens and dozens of
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: like UFO books, so you could pick up and just
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: you know, or you know, Belakovski's Worlds in Collision and then
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: those all kinds of stuff. Is you know these mass
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: market paperbacks.
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just as a kid, like the Paranormal got bigger again,
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: UFOs Horror was huge. You know, you just had all
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: these different like to a child, it's just like it's
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: a playground in the imagination.
• 9:36
  Speaker 6: Well, and when I was in I don't know, fourth
• 9:39
  Speaker 6: or fifth grade, at the Scholastic book fair, you know,
• 9:42
  Speaker 6: sponsored by the school. You know, I got one of
• 9:44
  Speaker 6: those books and in it it was talking about the
• 9:47
  Speaker 6: men in black from inside the Hollow Earth. They would
• 9:50
  Speaker 6: come up and watch people and you know, so it's
• 9:53
  Speaker 6: like just and then you got the Twilight Zones and
• 9:56
  Speaker 6: the weird its just it all, It's just gloriferic.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: It was everywhere, you know. Yeah, I remember picking up
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: from the Scholastic book Fair somebody strange and amazing stories
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: talking about it like a woman who allot of an
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: airplane and survived, and the strange parallels between John F.
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: Kennedy and Abraham Lincoln's you know, Life and Deaths and
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: again the Lucknows Monster and all kinds of things Acholastic books.
• 10:25
  Speaker 6: It made the world magical and you wanted to seek
• 10:28
  Speaker 6: out what this strange kind of you know thing was
• 10:32
  Speaker 6: subsiding in this reality.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: You know, absolutely, I think I had this feeling as
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: a kid that you know, we had we had done
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: the moon landing, you know, we were sending you know,
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: the first voyager satellite out into space, and you know,
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: we had mapped the Earth so pretty much, and you know,
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: science was doing all these amazing things, so it seemed
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: like science had discovered everything it was about the world
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: around us, and of course that wasn't true, but kind
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: of as a as a kid, it kind of felt
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: that way because there's this amazing world of science. But
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: then when you start talking about these mysterious things, you know,
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: what what whatever reason of both things? Or what is
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: the astral plane? And what is this magic stuff? And
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: someone becomes this unsharted territory and it and that was
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: also very exciting and enticing.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: Right, that's awesome.
• 11:26
  Speaker 5: I like that.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: I've got the Scholastic I had totally forgot all about that.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: You just took it back around. You know. It's funny.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: A couple of weeks ago I saw a meme about
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: like that, and it was like, yo, like two dollars
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: in the Scholastic book day was like your your life
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: was set, Like that's how simple life was. Give me two.
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: Bucks to this day. Like the Golden Book of Hallucinogenic Plants, which.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: That is awesome. All right, So how about if you
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: don't mind, before we get into the book, how long
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: have you been like I guess to uh you are,
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: remember I was showing over the oto correct, So.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been. I was kind of like a corresponding member,
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: you know, my pre initiated member since about nineteen eighty six,
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: and then I actually initiated in San Francisco in nineteen
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: eighty eight and been remember ever since?
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Oh nice, okay, all right, so that's been a minute. Yeah, yeah,
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: and I see, uh, I had watched one of your
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: interviews recently with David Schoemaker. That was awesome, wasn't it.
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's another person I think has Yeah, Living to Lima.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: I think that's an amazing book. Actually, yeah, yeah, I'd
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: listened to uh, I listened to all his podcasts on
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: that stuff back in the day and everything. Yeah. But uh,
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: all right, yeah, back to you this book. What was
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: the reason you booked this out? What did you think
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: other books were lacking? And this is why you felt
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: the urge to put this out if that's the case,
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: If that's.
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: The topic that people hadn't actually tackled. A lot of
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: times when people talk about psychology and magic, they tend
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: to get into a lot of you know, theoretical stuff
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: that's kind of unprovable. I mean, like you know, for example,
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: Carl Jung is amazing as in terms of a model
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: of how the mind works, and it's a great therapeutic
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: model for dealing with patients and therapy, but none of
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: its assumptions are are testable using modern science. It's one
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: of these It's just kind of like a model that
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: you you work with and then you get the results,
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: but you know, with your patient population, but you can't
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: test it in the scientific way. And other books on
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: the topic tend to like go off into quantum mechanics
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: and things like that, which again is interesting, but it's
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: if you actually talk to a physicist, most of them
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: are going to say, yeah, that's not really how it works.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: And I don't mean to dismiss either of those approaches,
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: but I wanted, you know, my background is in social psychology.
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: It's very much geared to sign tipic research and statistical analysis,
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: and I wanted to bring an actual hard data, hard
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: research that pertain to magic. And while there's there aren't
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: people out there doing research or they are doing a
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: real time brain imaging of someone while they're doing a
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: magic ritual, you know, vanishing or something like that, there's
• 14:20
  Speaker 3: a lot of research in psychology about things that you know,
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: those personality traits and the effects of our environment around
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: us and so on that apply to what magicians do.
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: And by magician, I'd use that term very broadly anyone
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: who engages in any kind of spiritual practice. So I
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: don't mean to exclude, you know, people who might call
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: themselves a wicked instead of a magician or whatever. I mean,
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: we're all doing those people are all doing magic, and
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: that's sometimes using this in a very broad and inclusive way.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: I use the magician in the same way. I feel
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: like it just includes everybody. No, I think that's great though.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: That's one thing that thought was like impressive about having
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: you on, and I think I you know, I guess
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: shoemaker would be the same thing. But there's that too
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: many people in my opinion, that are actually trying to
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: bring like academic science into a cult or not enough,
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: I don't think, And I think there is a lot.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: I think if ocultists and scientists were to maybe just
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: put their differences aside and actually talk to each other,
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: they'd make so much progress, that's my opinion. That's the
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: thing to like.
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: Another thing that a lot of the people who write
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: on magic and psychology do is they'll they'll lean into
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: parapsychology research, which is fascinating and I'm very intrigued by that,
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: but I also get this field. Once you start talking
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: about that, there's like a whole swath of people who
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: automatically dismiss that because there are skeptics and they aren't
• 15:45
  Speaker 3: accept the possibility that that stuff could exist. And another
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: part of my rationale with this book was, now want
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: to I want to focus on solid, peer reviewed research
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: about psychology, not you know, not psychological theories or models,
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: not necessarily parent psychology. And you know, there's plenty of
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: books about that stuff that people can go and read
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: if they want to pursue those avenues. But I have
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: like a very specific focus on evidence based approaches that
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: you know, and it may be naive, but hopefully not
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: that would allow that reaching across the aisle for practitioners
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: and scientists to actually find that common ground.
• 16:32
  Speaker 6: Well, go ahead, I was going to say, I think
• 16:35
  Speaker 6: it's interesting when you look at the idea of science
• 16:40
  Speaker 6: versus the paranormal, getting into all the quote unquote woo woo.
• 16:46
  Speaker 6: It's like science the way it's set up it's only
• 16:50
  Speaker 6: it's only able to test certain means that are repeatable
• 16:56
  Speaker 6: within the physical matrix. Anything be beyond that that becomes mental,
• 17:02
  Speaker 6: that becomes vibration, that becomes you know, higher forms of
• 17:06
  Speaker 6: etheric unders it just doesn't have the tools, so you
• 17:10
  Speaker 6: know it. Then it becomes the individual body and the
• 17:14
  Speaker 6: repeatable phenomena and these things. So can you kind of
• 17:18
  Speaker 6: get into some of these ways that we can with
• 17:23
  Speaker 6: repeatable means be able to kind of draw out some
• 17:27
  Speaker 6: of these you know, higher kind of forms that are
• 17:31
  Speaker 6: above and beyond the physical matrix.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Actually, what we were saying, right, And we have
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: a couple of interesting things, one of which is this
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: idea of repeatability and Dean Reading in his early book
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: The Conscious Universe kind of talks about this. Dean Reading
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: is a is a you know, a parapsychologist. But he
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: talks about how this issue, this issue that's scientists, particularly
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: skeptical scientists, expect certain phenomenon to be repeated and replicated
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: in the in the lab one hundred percent of the time,
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: you know, with with this with high degree of reliability.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: And he points out that we will pay some millions
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: of dollars who can hit a ball with a stick
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: one time out of three. And so this idea that
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: you know, we can accept, you know, the the idea
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: that a baseball player is not perfect, but I can't
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: accept the idea that some of these states of consciousness
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: that happen don't necessarily happen on demand in a laboratory setting.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I'm sorry, I think I'm talking. I lost
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: track to what you're asking.
• 18:50
  Speaker 6: Well, just in regard to how do we test these
• 18:53
  Speaker 6: outer limits, Yeah, and be able to have you know,
• 18:59
  Speaker 6: verifiable kind of for those that you know, refuse to
• 19:06
  Speaker 6: believe in these further kind of proceedings.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: Right right, Well, and I'm reminded of I believe this
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: is Bill Moyer's. He was the guy that ran that series,
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: The on Myth with Joseph Campbell, I think yet like
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: a separate series, but he remember him in they showed
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: coming up with this example about how a dog's nose
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: is an amazing device. I mean, it can smell. Also,
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: he can smell, you know, the scent of its owners.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: It can go out and sniff hydrants and things like
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: that until who's been there before. And through that mechanism,
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: a dog can learn a lot about the world. But
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: Bill Moyer says, you know that the sniff test is
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: not a way of finding out about God. And in
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: the same way, and you could say that science is
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: good at a lot of things, but there are certain
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: things that not good at right, and you've got to
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: use the right tool for the right job. And for
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: me and my approach to this book, I'm not again
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: trying to explain everything that happens to people when they're
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: doing magic, whatever their practice may be. As all psychology,
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: it's I think Alistair Crowley talks about magic being the
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: art and science of causing change occur in confirmity will.
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: So science is only part of that. There's also art,
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: and so my approach is kind of like, okay, let's
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: talk about the science part. But there's also a thing
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: that we really can't talk about in science. There's that subjective,
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: unique experience that people will have, and that's kind of
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: another realm, and I'll I'll allow people to interpret that
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: as they will. But one of the things I do
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: in Mind over Magic is in the last chapter, I
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: try to take you know, a semester course and research
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: design methodology and back into one kind of short chapter
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: about what is the scientific method, how can you like
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: test your own magical work for yourself. So if you're
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: doing some you know, magical operation for this outcome, you know,
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: you kind of walk through the steps of how you
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: would develop a hypothesis, how you might go about collecting
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: your data, how you might control for other things, and
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: how you can critically evaluate whether your experiment worked or not.
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: And that I think arms readers with a toolbox to
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: try to apply this method to their spiritual work, because
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: some of this process may be this trial and error
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: of finding a system that works for you. And again,
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: you can't tell what works for you until unless you
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: can tell what works.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: But there are common repeatable phenomena that are occurrences. Otherwise
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: this this whole idea of you know magic or the
• 22:08
  Speaker 6: magi or going back into all these ancient practices, it
• 22:12
  Speaker 6: wouldn't have persisted in Risen and come about because there
• 22:17
  Speaker 6: are common repeatable you know, people get an effect when
• 22:21
  Speaker 6: they participate.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the that's the whole mind of like a
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: lot of these these schools, they they'll say, hey, here's
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: these techniques. Here these tools you can use, you know,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: do this lesser manage ritual the pentagram or do this,
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: you know, calling of the watch towers or what have you,
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: and or even let's let's do this, you know, let's
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: do this Catholic mass, you know, and van transubstantiate.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, one thing I did want to ask you about,
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: you know, just real quick and it's kind of guess,
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: like a random question. I try to ask some people
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: that are into a flame or Crowley and this question
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: if I can you mentioned science, So this is I'm
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: gonna try to throw it in this way, and this
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: might sound off the wall, but it's just my belief.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: It's our theory of mine. Do you think at any
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: point else the Crowley actually points at the eyeballs in
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: the brain in some of his stuff.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna try to follow it doesn't.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I actually think there's certain certain times where
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: he does actually depict like the function like what your
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: eyeball and your brain's doing phenomena. Yeah, during a magical experience.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: That's just my theory. I was just wondering, since you
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: mentioned science, if you've ever come across that it sounds
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: crazy or yeah, artwork or just even ways of like
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: expressing certain things and archetypes. I do you think he
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: might be expressing like the pupil dilating and changing inside
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: the eye and how the light goes up into the
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: brain through the optic nerve as crazy as that's a.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: Couple of people who have explored Crowley's writings from the
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: angle of psychedelics, and I find that to be kind
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: of interesting because because Crole did use psychedelics, you don't
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: he didn't necessarily say hey, I was dripping balls when
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: I did everything, But yeah, sometimes you kind of say that.
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: But people have had these experiences kind of read some
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: of his stuff, like the Vision and the Voice and say, wow,
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: that stuff really sounds very much like a classic, you know,
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: psychedelic experience. And I think that's very fascinating because I,
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: you know, we all comment can come on any any
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: bit of data from different angles, and you know, approaching
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: curly from the from the angle of psychedelics isn't necessarily
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: something I would kind of I was kind of sticking
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: to you, sticking to the facts, you know, but having
• 24:56
  Speaker 3: someone with was knowledgeable in this to kind of take
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: this up and now this is actually very classic stuff
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: was a neat theory, you know. It's so it's interesting
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: to hear these different.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Tapes yeah, yes, I have to throw like away when
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I actually I was.
• 25:11
  Speaker 7: Just wonder, I'm gonna I'm going to piggyback on the
• 25:14
  Speaker 7: next stuff that because I did a little bit of
• 25:17
  Speaker 7: equity on the vision and the voice, and in some
• 25:20
  Speaker 7: of his writing is very analogous to physiology of ot
• 25:27
  Speaker 7: anatomy as well as brain anatomy, and that it all
• 25:30
  Speaker 7: functions together.
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: And even when you start to dissect some of the
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: numerology that he hints to you, you look at some
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: of the development fetal embryonic with eye physiology, brain physiology,
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: and it almost mirrors it. And so it's almost like
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: you almost wonder, did you take a crash course in
• 25:49
  Speaker 4: physiology embryology and you know I anatomy brain anatomy because
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: it mirrors it a lot, and so I think one
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: there's there's almost a pause to wonder. Maybe he was
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: a secret and atomists, secret artist.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean Croly was a voracious reader. But when
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: he went to university, he started he was going to
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: study in the form of a diplomatic service, but then
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: kind of focused mostly in like the humanities. You know,
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: his his mentor was a Greek you know, literature professor
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: and Arthur Willgallar Virol and.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: So well.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: While he may have had some courses, that wasn't really
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: the focus of his education. Again cruel. He wrote a lot,
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: and I think there is a lot of mysticism connected
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: with sensory input. I mean I think it like go
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: Is writing about color theory and things like that. But
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: Got was also very much of a mystic as well,
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: and so I think there there is a strand of
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: that in Western missourisism.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, I appreciate that. All right, Enough
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: about back to Richard? All right, so it is his time.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: Uh with your book? Do you go into I could
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: be making a stretch, but do you happen to go
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: into like maybe the psychology behind like maybe like the
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: whole robes, investments and all the stuff you use on
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: your altar? Is there anything?
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: Absolutely? Just to give you a couple of examples, there
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: is a lot of research done in I believe it
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: or not marketing psychology that talks about how our identity
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: and our personality is wrapped up in our possessions and
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: so the things that we own are in a way
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: extensions of ourselves. And that absolutely applies to you know,
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: a magician, if you think about like the magician, the Heiro.
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: He has you know, the the the four weapons of
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: the suits of the Tiro on this altar, you know,
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: the disc, the wand the cup and the dagger, and
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: in ceremonial traditions, you know, these things are like the
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: dagger is you know, the the cutting incisiveness of your mind,
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: and the wond is the force of will, and the
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: cup is the seat of emotions and so on, and
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: so these are literally meant to be external representations of
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: our state of mind, and marketing psychology of all things
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: kind of confirm that is, in fact, how we treat
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: our possessions. And so if we have these special magical
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: items that we have consecrated and treat with, you know, reverence,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: that's going to that that that assertion and in magical
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: spaces is absolutely true. Similarly, there are studies in psychology
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: that deal with how we dress and how that affects
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: our state of mind. I wanted to include in the book, okay,
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: a picture from an old bugs Bunny cartoon, but I
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: couldn't get the permission. I'm really sad about that. But
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: there's this old bugs bunny cartoon called Bugs's Bonnets and
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: in this In this episode, it's it's set up like
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: a mock you know, psychology documentary. And what happens is
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: this truck with a hat shop is going down the
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: road and it hits a bump in the back of
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: the truck opens up and all these hats go floating
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: out and as they land on Bugs Bunny's head or
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: Elmer Fudd's head, they take on the personality associated with
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: the hat, which I think is pretty funny, but there's
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: actually something to that. Psychologists have done studies in clothing
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: being being in a room with a lab coat, you know,
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: can affect how you how you respond to your environment,
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: maybe ease these environmental cues. But more than that, putting
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: on the lab coat will actually make the person we'll
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: change state of mind, will actually make them smarter and
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: change their personality subtly. So there are studies that have
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: compared you know, where people are at before you put
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: on this lab coat and afterwards you put on if
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: you put on glasses, feel smarter, right, and as art
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: this is this is a repeatable and demonstrable psychological phenomenon.
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: So if those things again change your consciousness or even
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: your ability, you know, your your your your actual intelligence
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: has boosted a little bit. Again, doing this in a
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: very meaningful sort of way, not in some abstract psychological study,
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: but in a temple where you're putting on of a
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: special consecrated robe, or or you know, or if you're
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: your practice a skyclad if you're you're removing all your
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: mundane clothes and going into this sacred sort of space,
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: that that will also change your state of mind. And
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: I think the idea here is that these things don't
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: make the magic happen, but they alter your consciousness, and
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: it's that altered consciousness that allows the magic, the personal
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: transformation to occur.
• 31:11
  Speaker 6: And I would think also is a part of the magic,
• 31:14
  Speaker 6: just in the sense of because you know, you are
• 31:17
  Speaker 6: essentially working to change your consciousness, elevate enter into states
• 31:24
  Speaker 6: of someonond you know, you're seeking certain mental states in
• 31:27
  Speaker 6: a lot of these cases, you know, to participate, and
• 31:30
  Speaker 6: then you add the sympathetic magic on top of that,
• 31:33
  Speaker 6: and it compiles essentially.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And actually in the book, I do talk a
• 31:38
  Speaker 3: little bit about, you know, the psychology of being like
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: in the zone as they call it, and how this
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: is something that's really hard to just I'm going to
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: go into the zone, and it doesn't work that way,
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: but that research has shown that there's ways again of
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: training yourself to more readily go into that space where
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: everything just kind of flows naturally, whether you're you know,
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: a shund'ering athlete or whatever. Again, most of these studies
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: aren't focused on magicians, but the flow state certainly does apply, right,
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: and the lessons learned where where like athletes can train
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: themselves get into the flow state. Literally, the exercises they
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: talk about are like straight out of you know, the
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: basics of you know, ceremonial man of practice, keep a diary, meditate,
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: you know, just it's it's pretty uncanny to read the
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: recommendations and in sports medicine for getting into the zone.
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: And I do kind of think that one of the
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: things that the mechanisms that this again my own perfect
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: theory of the mechanisms of ritual, is that practitioners spend
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: a lot of time learning these elaborate correspondences. You know
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: that you know, the the these colors represent, you know,
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: this characteristic, this astrological sign, this planetary ruler, these Greek gods,
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: Roman god's, Egyptian gods, what have you. You know that
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: whatever pantheon you you subscribe to. There's all these things
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: that kind of all interlock and correspond sense and colors
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: and sounds that. Yeah, so that when you're in the ritual,
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: you're engaging all of those senses and kind of tying
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: up you know, your rational thinky bits, you know. But
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: there's that other part of your mind though, that that
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: kind of clears the field and it's like, oh, I'm
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: busy thinking about all these correspondences and your intuitive part
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: doesn't really care about that kind of stuff can kind
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: of bubble to the surface.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Do you think the the incense might even be helping
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: with memory memories or you know, smell can actually really
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: affect affect the mind.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they say, they say that smell is actually
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: the most potent memory trigger. It's and I think that's
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: part of this process as well, because you are, through
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: your practice and through like memorizing these correspondences, you are
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: in fact training you know, these associations over a long
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: period of time so that when you finally do encounter
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: them in in a ritual or in ceremony, that's again
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: they're triggering these these memories or the responses that you
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: have been kind of coding into yourself, you know, over weeks, months, years,
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: because I.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: Know recently I was just doing stuff on Jeodn Bruno.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: I remember, correct. I think he's anastic scene. I mean
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: he's got what the memory of art and of the
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: art of the memory, yeah, and all those. He was
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: heavy into the idea of memory, that's wheel he had
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: and everything. I was like, yo, I gotta get my
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: hands on that thing, you know. Yeah. So I was
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: just wondering if incense because of the whole of memory.
• 35:05
  Speaker 6: Well, it's part of it, and I think incense also
• 35:08
  Speaker 6: when you look at incense, there's certain chemical compounds that
• 35:11
  Speaker 6: are in different incenses that have a tendency to affect
• 35:15
  Speaker 6: different neural train like the vegan receptors, Like what is it,
• 35:19
  Speaker 6: Frankincense actually has cannabinoids in it, So when they're burning
• 35:24
  Speaker 6: that at the church and the people are you know,
• 35:26
  Speaker 6: inhaling that they're getting a subtle dose of mild cannabinoid
• 35:31
  Speaker 6: that affects the mind state. So there are things you know,
• 35:34
  Speaker 6: physical as far as the smell, but also physiological as
• 35:38
  Speaker 6: far as the you know, the system itself.
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: Actually is a really good question for one of the studies.
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: Are some of the studies I look at in the
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: book is that people have tried to look at incense
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: and how they affect people's moods or state of mind.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: And one of the problems that research researchers have run
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: into is that there are so many any different kinds
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: of incense that you can't systematically say, you know, make
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: a general staying about all of them. And even if
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: you say something like sandal would, there are so many
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: different varieties and formulations of sandalwood incense and identifying what
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: that active ingredient might be that that's.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: What.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: And again, these recary studies have found a certain sense
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: they are associated with certain sorts of emotional or reactions.
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: But at the same time, I recognize it's very limited
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: because the number of possibilities and combinations there is just
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: you know, off the charts, that is true.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I've actually mind fucked sandal would before I understand
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: how many different variations there is. Yeah, I looked into
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: getting I was like, well, which one should I be using.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: If I don't use the right one, this isn't gonna work. Yeah. Yeah,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: that's very interesting about the whole Yeah, I think there's
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: a lot of with the mind connections and memories within
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: the ritual garbs and the robes and all that stuff.
• 37:06
  Speaker 5: There is a Sorry, Nick, I just want to jump
• 37:08
  Speaker 5: in and say one thing really quickly, is that there
• 37:10
  Speaker 5: is an interesting idea in Tontra that you actually use
• 37:13
  Speaker 5: those things so exactly like what all of you are
• 37:15
  Speaker 5: talking about. You use those things, but then you let
• 37:17
  Speaker 5: them go sort of return to sort of that rigplus state,
• 37:21
  Speaker 5: that sort of fifth primordial consciousness, that flow state maybe
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: but without sort of it's like more nebulous than intention.
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: It's more nebulous than well, there's it's more it's like
• 37:32
  Speaker 5: that waking consciousness from dreaming consciousness. So you're not necessarily
• 37:36
  Speaker 5: doing anything, but you're just really in the in that
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: you could say death, that consciousness almost like you're just
• 37:42
  Speaker 5: in true knowledge. So I do think it's interesting about
• 37:46
  Speaker 5: the incense though, because that is clearly true, like the
• 37:49
  Speaker 5: amount of compounding in TNTRA specifically, but also in all esoteratricians.
• 37:56
  Speaker 5: I think the plants are well, many people will say
• 38:00
  Speaker 5: that the plants are actually our closest relatives. So I've
• 38:03
  Speaker 5: heard a lot of you know, people talking about like
• 38:06
  Speaker 5: geoontologies in the last few years and like sort of
• 38:08
  Speaker 5: like the indigenous ways of relating to the land around us,
• 38:11
  Speaker 5: and I think that that relationship is sort of best
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: exemplified in plants. And I think this is also why,
• 38:17
  Speaker 5: like you see a lot of both contemporary and medieval
• 38:21
  Speaker 5: cultists like so into botanicals and so into their properties,
• 38:25
  Speaker 5: and not just in the biomedical terms, but also in
• 38:29
  Speaker 5: maybe the biospiritual terms. Right.
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: I think of something like Agrippa and his books of
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: a cult philosophy, and there's just all sections dealing with
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: minerals and plants, and you're like, what does this got
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: to do with magic? But yeah, does.
• 38:49
  Speaker 6: Elements?
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Again, I think the the idea there is, you know,
• 38:55
  Speaker 3: is so general, was saying that these as tools, the
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: robes and the implements and all of that isn't necessary
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: to get into these states of consciousness, and with practice
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: one can do without those things. I think it's more
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: idea that these are facilitators, right, They just they help
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: you get there.
• 39:19
  Speaker 6: Well, And that's the idea of Alvius Huxley with the
• 39:22
  Speaker 6: doors of consciousness. He talks about you have to facilitate
• 39:26
  Speaker 6: being able to open these doors, but once the doors
• 39:29
  Speaker 6: are open, then they maintain you know that passageway. It's
• 39:33
  Speaker 6: just a matter of learning the psychology of how to
• 39:37
  Speaker 6: take your brain to the point of being able to
• 39:40
  Speaker 6: enter into those states.
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: Sorry, I'm just going to say one more thing.
• 39:47
  Speaker 5: What you're saying is really interesting, Robbie, and also doctor Kasinski,
• 39:50
  Speaker 5: because really I know that you were saying. I think
• 39:53
  Speaker 5: pre recording that you would teach classes on talk tech
• 39:57
  Speaker 5: and pop culture and have a co host from the
• 40:01
  Speaker 5: Gray Lodge, Matt Mura, who's been on the show a
• 40:03
  Speaker 5: couple of times.
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: He talks about pop kabala.
• 40:06
  Speaker 5: I call it k pod with obviously parentheses around it.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: He ever came about it.
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: That's great, right, And so there's so much of if
• 40:14
  Speaker 5: you want to call it kabala or you want to
• 40:15
  Speaker 5: call it like magical coding in popular culture. Like it's
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: just saturated, like the colors, the sounds, the densities, you know, everything,
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: the archetypes, it's all there. And so I feel like,
• 40:27
  Speaker 5: in a strange way, we're at a prespice where people's
• 40:30
  Speaker 5: consciousness are strangely both prepared and perhaps very aggregated both
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: at the same time. But they're prepared to sort of
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: have higher experiences, but maybe they cannot, for their own reasons,
• 40:42
  Speaker 5: recognize what those experiences really are. So I don't know,
• 40:46
  Speaker 5: just an interesting idea I just thought to throw out there.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: Well, as far as pop Kabala goes, one thing I'm
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: kind of excited about is I'm again from childhood, just
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: a comic book nerd and I all read so much
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: these days, but when I was a kid, I read
• 41:01
  Speaker 3: like everything. But in December there Marvel Comics is launching
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: this mini series about the character Wicken, who is you know,
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: one of the children of you know, the Scarlet Witch
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: in the Marvel comics. And the first issue one of
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: the variant covers as the guy in like a superhero
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: outfit that's kind of reminiscent of the seventies, but been blazing.
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: The cross his chest is the conbalistic Tree of Life,
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: and I'm just like, I've got to pick this up.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: There's got to be some stuff in here for sure.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:38
  Speaker 6: Well, and I was going to say, in regard to
• 41:40
  Speaker 6: Jin talking about people their their mental faculties are at
• 41:43
  Speaker 6: the point where they're ready to experience these higher elevated
• 41:46
  Speaker 6: forms of consciousness. It kind of makes me think of
• 41:50
  Speaker 6: all these kids going to see Taylor Swift and having
• 41:55
  Speaker 6: these ecstatic experiences while they're there, and then when they
• 41:58
  Speaker 6: leave they use their memory, which.
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: Actually talk about that so interesting like post concert on
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: the show, right, But.
• 42:13
  Speaker 6: They're going into states of consciousness that they haven't experienced before,
• 42:17
  Speaker 6: and they're they're having these you know, higher form ecstatic
• 42:21
  Speaker 6: kind of you know feelings, and then when they leave,
• 42:25
  Speaker 6: they they just tabula, you know, it just is wiped
• 42:28
  Speaker 6: because I don't know, maybe they didn't enter like knowingly,
• 42:35
  Speaker 6: they intered accidentally and therefore they don't have the tool
• 42:40
  Speaker 6: to maintain the facility something along those lines.
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really an interesting, uh take on that too,
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: because you know, when I've heard people on the radio
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: talking about this when I'm because it was just like
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: all overd pop culture. You now during the Era's tour
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: and the Expert Summer, you are like, well, you know,
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: if you're like at a concert and you're focused on,
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: you know, taking selfies or shooting video, you're not really
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: in the moment. You're not being you're not actually present.
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: And to the extent to which that is true, I
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: would agree that any any spiritual work you are doing
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: does require you being present in the moment. And whether
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: it's an overwhelming moment like being in a Taylor Swift
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: concert or just you know, saying saying words over your
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: meal before you eat the food. You know, I mean,
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: if you you know, if you if you have a
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: practice where you say words over a meal and then
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: you just kind of inhale your McDonald's French prize and
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: you don't really think about it. You're not really present.
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: You're just kind of on an autopilot. And to get
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: the most out of that experience, you you want to
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: immerse yourself in it. You want, if you're in the
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: say words or food, then you should pause and enjoy
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: the taste of that food, you know. And same thing
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: with Taylor Swift. If you're gonna you're going to go
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: to a concert, you know, whoever you're seeing, you know,
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: Terror Swift became Alco whatever, go all in, you know,
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: I mean, absorb that experience. B be present, be there
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: in the moment.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: That's funny, that's interesting. Thank you. It's well that you
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: have to even have an idea that interesting. I know
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: in your book, Uh you happen to get into like
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: I guess, like the psychology of initiation and stuff.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I got a whole chapter on an initiation.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you, I know, you listen. You
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: want people to read the book and pick it up.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: So if there's anything you want to talk about that
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: you don't mind a little teaser on that maybe.
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: Well, I think with most initiation ceremonies ideas, you know,
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: the person going through it is going through some sort
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: of a you know, dramatic sort of re enactments or
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: a sacred drama of some sort, and they are playing
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: eight parts in this experience. And I tim there are
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: various things happen to you to a person psychologically when
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: when we're going through an initiation. One of these is
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: this whole fight or flight response or you know, which
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: has various other you know, components added on to it,
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: you know, friend or attend and befriend and things like that.
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: But being in this sort of physiologically and psychologically aroused
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: state makes you very receptive to the information around you
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: because you're trying to evaluate your situation for you know,
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: is a safe you know as my mind danger And
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: while in an initiation you're really not in any danger,
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: you're still going to be anxious and nervous about it.
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: But that also puts you in this very attentive and
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: receptive state of mind where the source of lessons that
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: are often part of initiation are able to be communicated
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: more effectively. And that you know that if you're a tradition,
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: you know, like like a Masonic sort of thing where
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: you're taking oaths, you know, and you're doing this in
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: front of your your comrades, you know, you're not just
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: saying something to yourself, like your New Year's resolution, which
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: you can just kind of blow off after a couple
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: of weeks. You've now like made a statement in front
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: of other people. And and so that aspect of it,
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: as well of publicly stating something, also has this this
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: effect on you that can be connected to various you know,
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: against psychological phenomenon. You know that you that you want
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: your behavior to match what you've said, and that's a
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: again a great way of creating behavior change, which again
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: results in that interior sort of change, which is the
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: goal of initiation. So yeah, there's a there's a whole
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: lot I could say about this, Like it's end the
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: entire hour to talking about that. That's kind of the
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: big overview of it.
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: That's interesting. I think a way I want to try
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: to explain this, but I I want to put you
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: on the spot. Either, Like let's say, in an initiation,
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: if somehow certain things might like parts of your body
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: might be touched or slapped that's near a chakra, could
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: that start maybe affecting your experience during the situation the initiation.
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: Potentially? I think that's one of those things that goes
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: outside the realm of sciences I know about scientists would
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: to recognize the idea of a chakra. But certainly in
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: our East meets West sort of fusion of scientific or
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: scientific of esoteric thinking of magical thinking, that those those
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: sorts of ideas of chakras and kundolini and so on
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: have been connected with magical practice. So to the extent
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: to which you know the chakras actually exist, then these
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: rituals or practice, you know, individual practices certainly have that
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: potential to you know, trigger or invoke those energies.
• 48:27
  Speaker 4: Would it be similar to like the muscle mind connection.
• 48:32
  Speaker 4: Like you spoke about athletes, and like when athletes train,
• 48:37
  Speaker 4: they train with certain music, they put on certain socks,
• 48:40
  Speaker 4: especially like the baseball players are very uh what is
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: it called dishes that they will wear the same socks
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: over and over and over end of you know, achieving.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Still just think they'll play their friends out of the
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: locker room over those things.
• 48:55
  Speaker 8: It's giving, right you you kind of glimpse into like
• 48:59
  Speaker 8: with some of these documentaries of some of these accomplished athletes,
• 49:03
  Speaker 8: in that they get into the same exactly, they eat
• 49:06
  Speaker 8: the same thing, they wake up at the same time,
• 49:08
  Speaker 8: they wear the same outfit, they place themselves in the
• 49:11
  Speaker 8: same position of a room, and then they go through
• 49:13
  Speaker 8: the entire training over and over and over.
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: It's almost like while they're working on their it's a
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: ritual itself and they have the same garb, they have
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: the same music, they have the same whatever it is,
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: and it's almost ritualistic. And when you're talking about like
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: if you hit a certain area, it's almost like the
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: mind muscle connection and that if you're working on the bicep,
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: you're thinking, bicep grow, bicep grow, like I'm feeling the
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: contraction and feeling the teary. They have seen in studies
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: where you when you have that mind muscle connection, that
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: the actual muscle will respond and grow. You have more
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: hypertrophy than in others it did not, or muscle mind connection.
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: And then with the ritual itself, it's almost like whether
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: it is the color or it is the garments or
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: whatever it's I think the ritual itself is like affirming
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: to our consciousness that you're like not only pursuing it physically,
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: but you're pursuing it spiritually. And it's that connection of
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: no longer muscle, but the connection of mind soul, you know,
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: and you're bridging that gap or and you like with
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: the tailor swift, it's almost like I don't remember it,
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: but maybe because you were not here like you you
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: had transcended. All you was in complete agreeance. You know,
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: your mind, muscle, I'm sorry, not muscle, your mind, soul
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: and body. We're in agreement for the first time and
• 50:46
  Speaker 4: you've transcended into your higher realm and everything you said
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: just connected right now when you said that.
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: So I can remember a book called The Magician's Training
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: and Work Work, and this is when I read very
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: early on and my my studies, and one recommendation that
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: he has is that you should have a special ring
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: that you put on only when you're doing magic, that
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: when you put this ring on, you try to enter
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: that sort of identity or that state of mind of
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: I am now the magic, I'm now a magician, and
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: you take it off like, oh I am you know,
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: I am just me, I'm a magician, you know. And
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: but I think it's it's tying into a lot of
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: those things that you're saying, the idea that you're you're
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: making these associations that when when you put on that
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: that ring, when you put on your magic socks, you know,
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: or whatever, that you're entering that that you're you're recalling
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: that muscle memory, that state of mind. And and you're
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: absolutely right. It is kind of a ritual. And as
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: I mentioned earlier, you know, the training for athletes to
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: get into that flow state again the very similar sort
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: of thing. It's taking advantage of all those associations and
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: basically trying to create this ritual or who what are
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: your ritual that athletes can go through to help them
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: get into that state of mind because of like forming
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: those associations.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: You know what's really interesting as you guys are talking
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: about this, Richard, I don't know if this was something
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: that you have done in the past. I've done it
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: a few times many moons ago, where it's almost like
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: kind of like taking on the god form. You know,
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: like if I'm working with with like Totha t Hoodi,
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe at some point I'll meditate and try
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: to like like take on the idea of to HOODI
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: and almost like or it's just like like you know,
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: or in some way it's like you know, where the
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: where the star in our video right now? That's going
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: on in our head, you know, like I'm Rocky right now,
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. And then you start to
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: take on this role of this image that you want,
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: you know, you want to portray, and it's gonna get
• 52:57
  Speaker 2: you what you want to need. And it's kind of
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: like I'm thinking, like taking on the god form. Sometimes
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: when you're working with certainities, it's almost like it was there.
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: Something ahead. I was going to say that there is
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: again a lot of psychology around role play and then
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: again it runs a gamut, and I talked about the
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: SELSA in the book that you know, role play has
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: been used in with with children to you know, combat racism.
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: But also there's a lot of interesting phenomenon about role
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: play amongst actors and how getting into the very character
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: and whatever they speak about their character in the first
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: person versus the third person speaks of identification. There's great
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: interview with the The The Star Blue Velvet where she
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: kind of talks about how, even when you're doing a
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: table reading of the script just kind of goes sitting
• 54:04
  Speaker 3: around for kind of reading the script, that she had
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: to have the fingernail polish on, that she had to
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: be able to look down her hands and see that
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: that fingernail polish of the character and are actually inhabit
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: that role and do the table reading. And again, it's
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: not necessarily magic, but it kind of is, you know,
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: And that certainly dovetails into the sorts of things we're
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: talking about.
• 54:27
  Speaker 6: Well, and I was going to mention there's a whole
• 54:29
  Speaker 6: school of actors that they as far as the meditation,
• 54:34
  Speaker 6: they become that person and then they maintain that that
• 54:39
  Speaker 6: personification through the entire shoot, even when they're not on set.
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 54:45
  Speaker 6: So this is a form of magic as well as
• 54:48
  Speaker 6: far as you know, taking it like you were talking
• 54:51
  Speaker 6: about taking on the god form, taking on these different
• 54:54
  Speaker 6: personifications that actually you know, change the consciousness and manifest
• 55:00
  Speaker 6: different realities and basically precipitate magical function.
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, and I know sometimes you know, again I don't
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: really make a big study of this in the book,
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: but I've anecdotally there have been actors who have had
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: like a hard time getting like out of character after
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: they've kind of immersed themselves in a while. Maybe maybe
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: a vanishing ritual would be helpful or something. We had
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: some tools and the magic Toolkit that that could help
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: with that.
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think I even heard a story of like
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: Walking Phoenix, Like what do you put himself through to
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: play that Joker role? It was like ridiculous. Yeah, it's
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: like you hear some actors and either way and all
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: that stuff. Yeah, and like some of the like the
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: most you know, biggest roles or you know, most well
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: known things. It's like that actor actually took on that
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: character months probably for the movie. If you look at
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: like how much they put into it, it's like, wow,
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: that's why it was so good. Yeah.
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but so many things, even even the actors have
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: to like undergo weeks and months so i know, die,
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: physical training, martial arts, you know, sort fighting whatever to
• 56:05
  Speaker 3: do the roles that they're portraying. I mean it's you know,
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: don't just walk into the set and do these things.
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: There's just walking.
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: Stuff for a lot of prep.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Is there anything else in the book that
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: you would like to maybe mention a touch on that's
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: in there to entice people or anything, give them a
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: better idea, like maybe just even some of the chapter
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: names or anything. Just let people know what's up with it. Gosh,
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: let's put you on the spot. He's like, oh, yeah, I.
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: Kind of feel like we we really touch on a
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: lot of It's like, oh, I talked about that, yeah,
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: but just you know, I can read you the table
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: of contents we've got, you know, had like a whole
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: the psychology of connecting the dots and seeing the big picture.
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: Rigamarole models daily magical practices, so kind of what I
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: do here as I progress from like the starting place,
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: taking now like some sort of regular daily or just
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: a regular in some other way practice, and then kind
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: of advancing from there into more involved practices. So in
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: addition to the daily magical practice, there's a separate chapter
• 57:19
  Speaker 3: called Think Better of the Magic of Yoga and Meditations.
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: That's just there's a lot of literature and that they
• 57:24
  Speaker 3: get into the idea of greater and lesser magical retirements.
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: This is when you sequester yourself to try and prepare
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: yourself to do a larger, more ambitious undertaking than just
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: your daily sort of practice. Hold that thought. Ritual implements,
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: as we talked about earlier, sacred headspace temples and what
• 57:45
  Speaker 3: we do in them. So that kind of gets into
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: the psychology of the space in which we do magic,
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: significant others, encountering the divine invocation, evocation, and some more
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: sorts of things. Full circle group ritual because once you know,
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: getting together with other people and doing magic because in
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: the natural next step a lot of people, then there's
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: initiation changing your mind. Touched on that, and then the
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: method of science and you so how you can actually
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: apply the scientific method to critically evaluating whether your your
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: work is doing what you think it is.
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: Very nice. That's a lot. Well, thank you, thank you
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: for reading off the chapters. That's what. So there was
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: one thing you mentioned, and you know, I meant to
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: mention it before, and you know, the thought lost me.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: We're talking or something was brought up about rituals and
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: you just mentioned something about meditation. I think at one
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: point I had even seen James Wasserman even say that,
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: you know, rituals could even be like a physical meditation
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: in a certain way. But besides that, maybe before we
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: wrap it up. I think even David Schumaker said it
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: like this one time in his Living with the Lima
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: or when he I think he said guests, like, you know,
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: a regiment for magicians. It does not sound glory, you know,
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: exciting or crazy, but you're going to have to learn
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: to meditate. May sound boring, just like damn, I don't
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: want to do that doesn't sound fun, But I do think,
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: in my opinion, I think meditation is the key part
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: of it. Do you think, you know, could you maybe
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: add a little bit more on how important you think
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: meditation is within having maybe a magical experience?
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think the best example I could
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: give to address that question is when Aleister Crowley was
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: writing his book for you know, his his Magnalopus on
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: doing Magic, first part or book one, you know, the
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: four parts was dedicated to yoga, and it was part
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: two that he actually gets into the magic implements and
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: actually doing ritual. So I think the fact that you
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: put yoga first says it all. I mean that the
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: disciplines of of you know, the the eight limbs of
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: yoga are baked into at least Crowley system, but you know,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: with the advent of the Theosophical Society, and so I'm
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: kind of promoting a lot of these eastering thoughts that's
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: also kind of worked its way into the Golden Dawn
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: and a lot of other traditions and the extent to
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: which magic is meant to kind of evolve us and
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: to make us into the best version of ourselves. You know,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: those tools of meditation, of being able to calm your mind,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: still your mind, introspects, and even attained these states of
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: you know, Diana and Samadhi are are are key. You know,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: it's it's it's like we're talking earlier about, you know,
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: just hus of the doors of perceptions, like well, yeah,
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: you know, you you take one hit and you see
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: the path, but you know these other these other techniques
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: you can get there for meditation and explore if once
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: you see that path and you had those glimpses of
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: some out here, you know where to find that. You
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: know what you're looking for, what you're shooting for, and
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: that will make you a more effective magician.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: Very very well, said Richard beautifully said, thank you very
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: much for that. A little bit on meditation. It was
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: an amazing guest for real, Richard. I'm really glad I
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: finally got you on. Yeah. I would love to get
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: you back on in the future if we have a
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: good talk about great conversation. Yeah, and all this was
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: like really fun. It was great to It was great
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: to have a conversation with you. Before we wrap this up,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 2: I will let the other rejects plug themselves again and
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: let everybody know where they can find their work. Lisa,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 2: please call reject bad Scientists. Let everybody know what's up
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 2: with you.
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 4: Josha Kasinsky. This was an amazing lecture. Thank you so
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 4: much for sharing your knowledge, your research, your your insights
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 4: on this and entertaining our questions. I very much enjoyed
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: the discussion, and as well with Robbie Engine that's always
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: fun to hear their take on things as well. Thank
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: you Nick for inviting it be on. And the only
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: thing I'd like to plug is a cool research institute
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 4: dot org. Some of our fellow rejects have contributed literarily
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: to the site. If you'd like to consume that content
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: that way, please checks out on a Cool research Institute
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: dot org.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Lisa, and I really appreciate you
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: coming on and contributing, and we got my manage in
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: the ninja what is going on with?
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 5: Thank you so much, and thank you to doctor Kasinski
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 5: for you know, tolerating my questions and inquiries into this
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 5: and as a not a not at all night but
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 5: I'm very interested and of course if you're if you
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 5: want to follow me on Twitter x at willcomra Born,
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 5: w uk O, n G Reborn, the Threshold Saints on
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 5: ig and Twitter, as well as the True Gray Lodge
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 5: dot com with a V and tonight we are doing
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 5: Friday Night and I'll stick book up nights out of Eden,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 5: so we'll be discussing it at my favorite obviously nicklesis
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 5: he's me but my favorite excellent or my I guess
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 5: he's a tall.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: Man too by Freder Chad.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 5: So we'll be discussing it a little bit about that
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 5: night because it comes up in the book right away.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: So thank you so much, Thank you, Jed, I appreciate it.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: It was always great to have you. And finally we
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: got Robbie Marks.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: What is going on sir? Oh you muted it again,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: my man? Sorry, sorry about that. Yeah, I just want
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: to say thanks to everybody. Thank you Richard for your time.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate it, and it's always such a good
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: group as far as a different insight we have from
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 1: our different perspectives. If anybody wants to check out my work,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: you can go to my link tree which is our
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: M A r X and that'll pull up everything for you.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: And yeah, thanks for everything, Nick, thanks for bringing this
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: all together.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, thank you, I had it again. This
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: was a great discussion and real quick again, Richard, please
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: let everybody know where they can find and your stuff
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: and your books.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 3: All right, Well, again, thank you all for this amazing conversation.
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 3: It was a great deal of fun. And if you
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: want to keep up on what I'm doing, you can
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: find me on social media. I'm on Facebook, Instagram, Threads,
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: and Blue Sky and I also have a website at
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: Richard dash Kachinski dot com to so just take my
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 3: name there on the screen. They had to put a
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: hyphe in there. And if you enjoyed the conversation, do
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 3: pick up mind Over Magic coming out October seventh.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: Awesome. Yes, uh yes, and that is I guess the
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: end of another occult rejects. Thank you everybody in the chat,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: and that's what's up. I really appreciate and it was
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: a little early, but we had some of the regulars
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: here and they're here from the beginning to the end.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: I really appreciate that, and I appreciate all your comments.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: That's why we go live. And until the next one,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: everybody be well. Lada