Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 683: Crash, Boom, Bang! How to Write Action Movies with Michael Lucker

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IFH 683: Crash, Boom, Bang! How to Write Action Movies with Michael Lucker · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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Film Hustle Podcast, Episode number six eighty three. The Secret of getting ahead
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That's film bizbook dot com. Now, guys, today on the show,
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we have Michael Lucker, who is a screenwriter and the author of Crash
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Boom Bang How to Write an Action Movie, And we have not had anybody
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on the show. They're really go into the details of how to write action,
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which is arguably one of the most profitable genres in movie history and if
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you're a writer, probably a good thing to know about how to write a
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good one. And Michael and I get into the deep weeds. We break
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down the craft of action screenwriting in this episode and discuss some of the greatest
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action films ever written, and some we agree on. Some we might have
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a little bit of different opinion on, but generally speaking, we agree on
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most of them. So, without any further ado, please enjoying my conversation
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with Michael Lucker. I'd like to welcome to the show, Michael Lucker Man.
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Thank you so much for being on the show. Brother sure, thank
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you, thank you for having me. So Before we get into how to
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write an insane action movie, let's let's see how how did you get into
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the business in the first place. I started writing song for girls I had
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crushes on in seventh grade that wouldn't give me the time of day. And
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then I graduated to writing from the school paper, and then I wrote a
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play in high school. And then I went off to college and studied writing
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in Boston, and people thought I was happy sentant it. So I got
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to La to try my hand at making my way in the wild world,
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and I landed a gig or two, and I was unhappy with those,
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so I started typing and that made me happy, and I ended up getting
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one script in front of some agents, and they got in front of some
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buyers, and I got an option, and then I got hired, and
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then I got a sell, and then I became a screenwriter. Yeah,
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I'm actually a paid screenwriter, which is a rarity, like a functioning paid
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screenwriter in the industry, which is funny. You said they used to write
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songs. I too, dabbled in in songwriting for a the Hearts of Young
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Ladies back when I was when I was younger, and to try and like
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her and my favorite. Unfortunately, I also sung them, and nobody will
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ever hear those, uh much of a singer either. That's why I migrated
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over to Spring. Yeah, that's not That's not something that anyone will ever
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see because it's in my closet literally. But so your first movie, if
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I'm not mistaken, was Vampire in Brooklyn, right? Or is that the
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first one that you sold? First one? It wasn't the first one that
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got so old or I got hired or write, but it was the first
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one they got made, I believe. Yeah. How many how many scripts
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did you get optioned or hired to do before that first one? Probably five.
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We've got a couple of things going in Disney. It's just a couple
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of things going to pair amount and universal I think another thing or two,
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and then we got um this call on this one and they just kind of
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like to go. So yeah, for people who not they'll remember that vampire
4:53
in Brooklyn started Eddie Murphy and he was still Eddie Murphy. He's always Eddie
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Murphy, and I'm in my world he's always Eddie Murphy. But he was
5:00
at some of the heights of his power back then because he made basically a
5:03
vampire film because he wanted to. He could do whatever he wanted. I
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mean, he was one of my heroes thrown up, I mean forty eight
5:12
hours in Beverly Hills. Coyle was religion to me, and so that for
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me to have a chance as a young man, as a young screenwriter,
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to write a movie for one of mine, you know, all time phase
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it was just black agree gun true. I mean, coming to America.
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I still argue the greatest comedy of all time. I will argue against that,
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but it's one of the at least you're welcome to your opinion. Yeah.
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Um, So, so you wrote a book called Crash Boom. It
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was the title of the Crash Boom Crash Boom Bang. How to write action
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movies exactly. Now, how how how do you write action movies? Because
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you know, because action movies are in today's world, action movies are pretty
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much prevalent in all of Hollywood studio systems. I mean, they're basically action,
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superhero action or fast and furious action, they're all. They're all.
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They're all ip based or franchise based. So having a skill set as at
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writing a good action movie is a good skill set to have in the studio
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system and also outside the studio system because action movies travel fairly well, uh
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internationally as well. So I know it's a very broad question. So what
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are some tips on how to write a good and what makes what makes a
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good action movie? And then we can have a discussion about some good action
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movies. Right, Um, well, I think you know those two questions
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go hand in hand, and what makes a good action movie and how you
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write a good action movie is often based on the same tenants and that makes
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those stories no matter that genre. And it's one of the things that's often
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lost in a lot of shallower you know that bid you know, action films
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that don't have much death through the characters into their journeys to So who are
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writing good stories of any elk. You go back to the hero's journey and
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the principles that have been brought since Aristotle and seeing that range of change in
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the hero, you know, fixing flaws they had at the beginning, and
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going through by going through the adversity that they face along the story, and
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see, you know, how they transform and become you know, stronger wise
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or more courageous, more humble, and more soulful at the end. What
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happens, I think in a lot of action movies is those basic principles are
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lost or they trying to spread it so thin, especially in sort of films
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that have too many primary you know, characters up top. They're trying to
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develop everybody. You don't get to get into anybody in much detail, and
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so we as the audience may not connect with them as deeply or as honestly
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as we could because the studios are trying to give a little something of everybody
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to everybody in the audio. So you know when people say, how do
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you write a great action movie? And I'm like, learn how to write
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a great movie? We learned how to write a great story. So there's
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you, and I see you, and I are from the same vintage,
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if you will, age wise, so we kind of grew up watching it.
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Sounds like we both grew up watching a lot of the same great action
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movies of the day. Um So, I mean, I I personally think
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that the eighties and nineties, but the eighties had a just is a golden
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age for action movies. Yeah, because seventies. I mean, you know,
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we got Smoking the Band into that kind of stuff, but they they
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didn't come into really into their own heavily into the eighties. So I want
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to talk about three movies and I want to hear what you think about them.
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I think they're three of their their top five in my world. Uh
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Diehard, Diehard, Obviously, absolutely, lethal Weapon, Lethal Weapon first one,
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and Predator the first Predators, not like in order. I'm just saying
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that there's other action movies that I enjoy too. I mean, obviously Commandot
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No, I'm joking, but I mean I do love it. For my
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I can't if I watched that movie today, I'm sure I'm gonna go,
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oh, this is horrible, but in my mind it's still pretty awesome.
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But I could watch die Hard. I watch it every year as a Christmas
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movie because I did a whole episode on how it's the greatest Christmas movie of
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all time. Then there's Lethal Weapon, which I could still watch today and
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it holds, and you can watch Predator and it still holds, and at
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least for me. And I was wondering what you think about Well, like
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die Hard, we've talked about a nauseum and we all know that's you know,
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the hero's journey, the everyman. I mean, what do you just
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really quickly, let's go over die Hard real quick, and what makes it
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such an amazing action movie. Well, I'll say this, you're speaking my
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language really, because it puts anything in perspective for you. When I was
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a young man out of film school, coming from the East Coast and I
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landed in North Hollywood and I got my first job. We'll be right back
10:00
after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show. In
10:07
my little hole in the wall apartment, I had UM, you know,
10:11
off Magnolia. I UM had two posters framed on my bedroom wall and they
10:18
were leasing and it was largely because that was just part of you know,
10:24
the lexicon at the time. They kind of helped shape me as a young
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storyteller and filmmaker. When you got great writers like you know, Jeff Stewart,
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Stephen g Seza and Shane Black of cost who remains one of my favorites.
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Um, they did things at the time that revolution a revolution revolutionized,
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yeah, revolutionized making writer. Um, the storytelling was done, and they
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brought heart and soul and pain and um laws to the heroes in a way
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that a lot of traditional action movies had not as much a briar. And
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so we really identified, connected with and shared for those for you know,
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um, John McClain and Martin Riggs and ways that we had not done for
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heroes before that. So those movies, I mean to me, are point
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essential and I encourage all writers who are interested in human action movies too not
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only see those movies instead of those in the movies movie, read the scripts
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and look at how those writers rafted those images and created that tension and scenes
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and created that sort of identification you know, for the audience and you know,
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the leader to have the hero. Yeah, Shane, Shane is Shane
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Black is arguably one of the greater he's he's he's in the top lexicon of
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screenwriters in general. But what he did in some of those early scripts.
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You read the original Last Boy Scout, not what was made, but the
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original Last Boy Scout, longst good Night, Lethal Weapon. I think he
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didn't do Lethal Weapon too. I think he did just a story of Lethal
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Weapon too. But yeah, but that was still also great, a great
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film as well. Lethal Weapon. Um uh, he didn't write you know,
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he wrote the New Predators. He didn't write the Old Predator. But
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um but just watch just watching his descriptions. Yeah, his his his vocabulary
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was so and he breaks rules. He breaks rules left and right. You
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know, the way he writes the description, how he does it. It's
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just like Glein Tarantino. You know when he writes his dialogue. He just
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breaks he breaks rules all the time. But they're masters, They're absolute masters.
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And then you have to you have to read those scripts. Yeah,
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you really do, because like Signal movies is one thing, they're working on
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screen. But you know, even you know, the quantity of sprest to
12:48
consume the studios every year, the scripts that rice to the top you really
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have to stand on their own in order to stand out. And that means
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the words they you you know, the images is that they convey as precisely
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as creatively as they do, puts you in that moment, put you in
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that place, and you really feel like you are, you know, in
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that car chase or you know, scaling down that mountain or being thrown out
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that window. No question. And like when I watched Lethal Weapon, because
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I was during my video store days when I worked at a video store,
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I must have watched Lethal Weapon like twenty thirty times. It was just such
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a in the character of Rigs, his transformation to the end. You just
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didn't see that that was just something that wasn't done in action movies. It
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was so revolutionary. And I mean Diehard took that to another place because as
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well, both of them in their own way, but you're right, it
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was just you felt for the king. So before you would have like you
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would have Schwarzenegger show up and right, you know, Schwarzenegger and Stallone,
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they would just be these hyper real gods basically that could do no wrong and
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they could you know, shoot guns until the cows come home and they never
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get hurt. Oh I got dinged, then I just keep going, don't
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have time to bleed and and all that kind of stuff. But then you
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got something like die Hard where John McClain's character is he's a normal dude going
14:16
through normal stuff, and he doesn't look like an Adonis. And you've got
14:20
Martin Riggs who also doesn't look like an Adonis, and he is a very
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fractured character as a human being. He's on literally on these on the edge
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good Well. One of the things that I think Shane Black did and they
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do and die Hard as well, is the transformation of the hero is represented
14:45
in such a clear and subtle and powerful way that whether we're conscious of that
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as an audience member or unconscious of it, we feel it. And so,
14:54
for example and Lead the weapon. You might remember when we meet Martin
14:58
Riggs, he's got the special silver bullet loaded in his gun and he's got
15:03
it in his mouth and take his own life over the grief he feels over
15:07
the loss of his wife. Right, So that's the opening shot of our
15:13
hero, and for us to see that in the eighties, it's like,
15:16
this is our hero, a guy who's like living in a trailer alone on
15:20
the beach with a gun in his mouth. What happens to the course of
15:26
the movie is he grows and rebuilds the self esteem and and finds a new
15:31
sense of purpose as through his job and through saving Murdog and his family and
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Ulpily others, and by the end of the movie, and this is what
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makes like Shane Black's writing so powerful. The last scene of the movie,
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if you remember, is Riggs walking up to Murktok's house being given him that
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same silver bullet that he was going to use to take his own life as
15:54
a Christmas present when he came for Christmas Center. He goes, it's a
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bullet, and riggs last line of the movie is, yeah, I don't
16:03
need it anymore. It's just it's just so good and the music. Look
16:07
at those little things you know that we try and teach and talk about in
16:12
in you know, in academics, you know um setting or you know,
16:17
in lecture or similars is the kind of stuff that really makes I think movies
16:23
resonate with audiences on you know, a widescale. And I think another movie
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that's not often thrown in that list but should be, in my opinion,
16:33
is the original RoboCop. I completely agree. It's such a good movie and
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at the on the surface it's just a good action movie. But if you
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go back in the layers of onions and what Behoven and the writer are trying
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to talk about in that film. Oh, it's so, I think Michael
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Minor was the writer of that. Yeah, and you and you'll be happy
16:57
to know the die Hard, Lethal Weapon and RoboCop are all three of the
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movies that talk about in my book, as you should, sir, as
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you should, as you as you should, sir. So all right,
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So with every good hero, there has to be a good villain. And
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in so many action movies the villains are horrible. Um, they're just bad.
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They're one dimensional, their paper, they're twisting the mustache kind of heroes.
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But in but in, let's just analyze those three movies, RoboCop,
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Lethal Weapon, and die Hard, the villains are almost as memorable, if
17:37
not more memorable, sometimes than the hero itself or on par so with Diehard,
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Hans everyone. I mean, you can't think of McClean without thinking of
17:45
Hans. You can't think of mister Joshua the great Gary Busey right when he
17:51
was great, Um, but he was great. Um. And then in
17:55
RoboCop, the corporate, the corporate CEO, you know, there was just
18:00
so evil we often say in screen arning right that, um, that the
18:07
hero can only be as powerful and strong and their their m victory can only
18:14
be as rewarding as the opponents um merit. So if you have an unformidable
18:22
UM villain, then it's not going to mean much for you know, Luke
18:26
Skywalker to take you know out, you know some you know nebishy little dude
18:33
with as lightsaber. But when Darth Vader is a formidable bad guy, then
18:37
there's something to happen there. So you need in good stories, right,
18:42
whether it's a love story, a drama or a comedy, you need a
18:45
formidable opponent in order for the audience to invest in and feel victory when the
18:51
hero defeats them. Right. So that's one thing about being powerful opponents.
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Um. The other thing to consider is that just as good heroes have strengths
19:03
and weaknesses and have their skills and also have their their flaws, so too
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should good opponents. And that's one of things that happens in all those movies
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is they're not the totally you know, mustache, you know, black hat
19:18
wearing, you know, one note villains. They might be doing horrible things,
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but they have their own justification for doing them, or sometimes they started
19:30
on a path that led to things beyond a way that they ever expected.
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So the trick is the fun of balance in that formidability, right and also
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that human aspect, and even in something like Predator, it's one makes that
19:45
movie resonate with audience because when Schwarzenegger finally has the Predator down, you know,
19:51
and he has you see the humanity really in the monster. We'll be
19:57
right back afterwards, our sponsor, and now back to the show, and
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that's the moment where your hero Schwarzenegger has to make them all choice or whether
20:12
he's going to put a spike through the guy's face, you know, or
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not are we going to rise above you know, the lowness that they leads
20:21
that. So there's two movies that come to mind because I think you're right.
20:25
I absolutely think you're right in regards to having a great you have to
20:27
have a great villain. To have a good hero without one or the other,
20:30
it doesn't work. It's the ying and the yang. But then there's
20:34
movies like blood Sport, which again in my mind fantastic. If I watch
20:41
it today, we'll probably tear it apart. But if I remember correctly,
20:45
the villain wasn't particularly a deep villain, but he was physically a threat,
20:52
and that's why that fight at the end and the whole journey is weak.
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As the story might have been in that movie. That's why you know,
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he was just such a massive man, and they built him up so much
21:06
that it made it made that fight at the end or the whole journey up
21:10
into that fight work to a certain extent. Again, I know blood sports
21:14
shouldn't even be in the same conversation as the movies we've been talking about,
21:17
but just I just want the audience understand the physicality. Now, physicality does
21:22
count for something like darc Vaders like six seven, so he's also a very
21:26
large, large man. But then you look at a movie like Commando,
21:30
which again was not a great film, and I think one of the reasons
21:33
it's not there's many reasons why it's not great. It is great in my
21:37
mind, but not great in the traditional minds is the villain. He looked
21:41
like a Pip squeak next to Arnold. Do you remember, like I even
21:45
as a kid, I'm like, that's not a challenge for art, Like
21:48
Arnold could take that guy in a fight. But when you get to Predator,
21:53
that's a whole other conversation. And the Predator is not a deep character.
21:57
He's a very wonder mentional character who does not change throughout the entire process
22:03
of the film. But his abilities are what are formidable to an entire elite
22:08
crew that make that movie work. I would love to just, you know,
22:11
to hear your thoughts on it. Sure well. I think that those
22:17
movies that you mentioned, the blood Sport and the Commando and the Predator,
22:22
um, they don't have sort of the depth and humanity and and sort of
22:27
you know, dexterity of some of the other villains that we talk about in
22:30
the really good movies. And I think that's a sort of juxtaposition to see,
22:34
you know, in the good movies that are remembered right become iconic.
22:41
You know, there are great heroes who are saddled, you know, an
22:44
extraordinary situation against formidal villains with death. And when you don't have it,
22:51
then no matter how cool, sexy, smart and creative your hero is,
22:56
it doesn't really carry as much. Much. So you're telling me that splits
23:00
aren't gonna make it the story better, not like yeah, yeah, I
23:10
still I still try to do it and it doesn't work. I don't know
23:11
how John Claude does it. I mean he made an entire career off that
23:15
damn split. I remember that every movie because I was a huge I mean
23:18
I was a kid. So when he was those movies were coming out.
23:22
Every movie, they'd work a split it somewhere like in the weirdest place.
23:29
But I I just I saw a Mission Impossible too, was on TV last
23:33
night, and I was walking a little bit, and I love Mission Impossible
23:34
and I'm a big Tom Cruise fan. But Tom Cruise was doing his un
23:38
essential sprint. Yeah. I just see those YouTube videos that he's just running.
23:45
I think it's in this contract he must run at least one hundred yards
23:48
at full tilt in every movie. That's something that studios have identified, you
23:53
know, in in films like you know, you know, we wanted audience.
23:59
I don't want to see Bread take his shirt off, and audiences want
24:02
to see you know, Tom Cruise. You know. So I think the
24:06
sprints and the splits were those contractual problems. And Tom is one of those
24:12
Thomas. You know, talking about these old action movies, I mean,
24:17
these were these were movie stars, you know, these guys were movie stars,
24:21
and nowadays there aren't as many movie stars anymore. The movie star power
24:25
is gone. Where before a Commando would be made purely on the on the
24:29
strength of Arnold, A movie like that would never be made without movie star
24:34
power behind it. Even today's where we'll talk about today's world in a second,
24:40
I think, I mean, you're bringing it up. So I think
24:41
I think it's a combination of the nature of the marketplace right because of proliferation
24:47
of digital media and the fact that anybody can sit on their couch, you
24:51
know, in their din and turn on a thousand channels, you know,
24:56
um and have that if they're becking call to watch whatever one. It needs
25:00
to be something special to get them off the couch to come into him dark
25:07
beat or to sit a stranger say fifteen about the pop to get in the
25:10
door, let alone ken about for So in order to do that, it
25:15
needs to be a big spectacle, and big spectacle sposs money, and you
25:19
got to have a big movie star in the respectacles, you know, justify
25:25
the expense. But would you agree though that, um that Chris Evans is
25:32
in a movie star but Captain America is. I think that's a great example
25:37
because I saw Chris Evans in an action movie before he was known. Yeah,
25:41
he's a he's a good actor, and he's done a bunch of stuff.
25:45
Good actor, and he's done a bunch of stuff. And then I
25:47
remember, um, this Captain America movie came out, and I was like,
25:52
who's this guy. Who's gonna go and watch this guy do anything?
25:56
And I think he's fantastic in the role. Oh but he and he's a
26:02
great actor. But you're right, there's a difference between between being a great
26:06
actor and being a movie star. And some of those things are you know,
26:11
energetic and soulful and undescribable. You know, some people have it,
26:15
and some people, as talented as they are just may not. And also,
26:22
and also the other thing is that, and I think this is important
26:25
for screenwriters listening, is that a lot of times they think, if I
26:27
could just get like my screenplay to Chris Evans. And I'm not picking up
26:30
Chris, but basically, just if I could get it to Chris Evans,
26:33
or I can get it to Daniel Craig, or if I can get it
26:37
to you know, one of those characters, one of those actors who play
26:41
those big roles, either James Bond or Spider man or something like that.
26:45
They don't outside the suit, outside the character, they don't have the markability.
26:51
They're good, they're huge stars. But you look at Robert Downey.
26:52
He just came out with Doctor Doolittle and it tanked and right and Robert and
26:57
Robert Downey Jr. Is probably one of them famous actors in the world.
27:00
He's one of the most talented actors of his generation. He's I mean,
27:07
he's amazing. But yet Doctor It did not drive sales to Doctor Doola.
27:11
But the only thing outside of Marvel that's had any sort of successes to Sherlock
27:15
Holmes movies, and that's a one officer. So he hasn't been able to
27:18
like unlike Arnold or Stallone that he would. They would just pump out because
27:22
they were movie stars in an age of movie stars where I think the age
27:26
of movie stars is kind of over for the most part. There are certain
27:30
like the Rock is the closest thing I think we have. Yeah, and
27:34
even then, if he's not in the right movie you put you put the
27:37
Rock in a drama, it's not gonna work right. Well, it's it's
27:42
a good point. I think that you know, times are changing and it's
27:45
one thing to remember is that you know, you said there are no movie
27:48
stars now or not what they once were, And I would just qualify that
27:52
by saying, maybe there's not as many as there were, and there's not
27:56
as many right now, but it doesn't mean the landscape is going to change,
28:00
because even though we're in the wild glass with a thousand channels and a
28:04
digital platforms, yeah, things continue to evolve. Oh yeah, gollmakers and
28:11
brilliant studio bosses are continually um trying to ride those ways and oftentimes surprised by
28:18
by what they find. So I think, you know, we are in
28:22
the middle of sort of a renaissance of sorts to where things are changing and
28:26
everybody's trying to figure it out. Nobody knows anything. Every I mean like
28:30
everyone's still exactly nobody knows nothing. And but I think I think that Disney
28:38
is probably one of the only companies out there who really got it early on.
28:42
They're like, you know, what's going to come IP, we need
28:45
to buy as much IP as we can, and that's what they did.
28:48
And now they just made what I think it was ten billion gross this year
28:52
at the box office, so they basically were out of every you know.
28:56
I mean they just have five to six seven movies that broke a billion dollars.
29:00
They figured something out where I think the rest of the studios are trying
29:02
to trying to find, Like you know, Harry Potter's gone unless until they
29:07
reboot it, you know, Fast and Furious only has how many more those
29:11
things? You have to credit them for having the vision or thought, you
29:18
know, Iger and the rest of them. Yeah, Eisner days, oh
29:22
no, he built, he started it. As they all recognized the power
29:26
of you know, owning you know, property that not only would reach audiences
29:32
going forward in masses, but also had reached audience and mass fire to that.
29:40
And they were willing to spend a few extra bucks and outbid others in
29:45
order to hold on to that thing, knowing that they could take a Star
29:48
Wars and turn out a Mandalorian and a Solo and everything else out of the
29:53
brand that they own. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
30:02
and now back to the show, because as we all know, as
30:07
writers studios on it, they get to do whatever they wanted, for better
30:11
or for worse, for better or for worse. Now that brings up a
30:18
good point as writers you know, as screenwriters coming up in the world,
30:21
because I know when you started and when I started, it was a completely
30:23
different landscape, completely different way of doing business. There was a much less
30:27
competition, even though it's still a brutal time as far as competition. But
30:32
now there's there's a lot more opportunity, but there's a lot more competition.
30:36
Where do you think a screenwriter should focus on if they're going to write an
30:40
action movie? Because I know the last screenwriter will write these giant, tent
30:44
pole action movies and that are not based on IP their originals, And I'm
30:47
like, did you if you want it as a as a as a writing
30:49
sample, fantastic, But the chances of the studio putting one hundred million dollars
30:56
or plus in a non IP action movie is going to be different unless you're
31:02
James Cameron and you come up with Avatar, And that's a different conversation.
31:04
But where do you think they should focus you? They show focus on the
31:07
lower budget action movies, which there's still a lot of you know, fifteen
31:11
twenty million and below kind of things that are done for international, the Nicolas
31:15
Cage movies, the you know, those kind of films that I still have
31:21
a marketplace for them. It's a little bit easier to get into that.
31:23
I'm just curious where you where you stand on that. What do you think?
31:27
Well, I think you're right that the expansion of opportunities based on you
31:33
know, the elevation and technology is jointed more chances for more writers to do
31:41
more things. At the same time, the money may not be as much
31:48
as it was, but there may be more opportunities. So, you know,
31:52
all my writer friends I know are writing everything they can, you know,
31:57
and that means they're writing features, and they're writing television, and they
32:01
might be writing you know, commercial copy as well, because they're writers and
32:07
they love to write, and it's part of their soul. And that's why
32:09
people should write, is the tell good stories and and help, you know,
32:15
change the world ideally make it a better place, you know, and
32:20
lift lift spirits and you know, um warm hearts and all those things.
32:23
And if you get into the writing business for the wrong reasons, because you're
32:29
trying to make a million dollars, or you're trying to prove to your high
32:34
school principle that you could amount to something one day, or you know,
32:39
proved to the girlfriend that jaded you and elementary school. Then then you're doing
32:44
it for the wrong reason. It's going to be a long, rocky road.
32:46
So I think you know the bottom line is right everything you can and
32:51
do it because you know you love it, and kind of let the universe
32:54
sort of support you in that path because it's hard to controls. Once preach,
33:04
my friend preach. Now. I've heard many times before from other screenwriting
33:12
gurus or people that are in the screenwriting educational space, and also from screenwriters
33:16
in general, that studios look for a certain amount of action sequences spread out
33:22
through your as you could literally count them, like there's an action sequence eight
33:27
minutes later, another action eight minutes later, or ten minutes later in your
33:30
experience. What's your school of thought on that? Well, it's interesting,
33:35
it's a great question. You know, we all kind of understand an inherent
33:39
react structure, right, And Joel silver Preacer at Leave the Weapon die Hard
33:44
incidentally came along with what I believe he termed the Whammo chart, and it
33:50
was like something significant needs to happen and surprisingly audience every ten pages. So
33:55
if you're looking at a two hour movie or a twenty pages you're looking at
34:00
basically eleven significant surprises along the way, So you can kind of extrapolate that
34:07
in some ways and apply it to content of any length. But at the
34:12
same time you better remember it that audiences today are different from audiences that you
34:20
know grew up on Lethal Weapon and ihard like you and I did, right,
34:22
and they're used to not only seeing things much faster, but they're also
34:27
used to watching three or four screens at the same time. So you almost
34:31
needed, I think, in some ways increase the quantity of surprises as long
34:37
as they're germane to the story and organic character so that you are keeping you
34:42
know, the add and ADHD, you know, generation from changing the channel
34:47
when they're sitting at home on accouch, or from getting up and going for
34:52
gummy bears at the theater and not coming back. Do you remember the indie
34:55
movie Run Lolo Run. I know of it, don't remember the movie itself.
35:00
I remember that it was literally NonStop tension or action the entire like it
35:06
was just like just it didn't stop, and I found it exhausting, Like
35:10
so it's dangerous. It is dangerous, And I learned that lesson the hardaway.
35:15
I was at a pitch at DreamWorks with Jeffrey Cassonburg and I was pitching
35:21
to him an action movie, and I remember saying something along ridiculous along the
35:24
lines of, you know, it's going to be NonStop action. It's gonna
35:29
be you know, on the it's gonna be a fantastic action movie. And
35:31
he, very simply and bluntly, as he's known to do, goes,
35:36
Michael, you it can't be all action. I was like, lines,
35:38
an action movie, come on, it'll be great. He's like, no,
35:43
you have to have those walls, those moments of reflection, those moments
35:46
of recovery, you know, in order there to be a little bit of
35:51
um juxtaposition and diversity in terms of the story flow and in terms of the
35:57
audience's journey. And if you don't have those things, not only chance for
36:00
the hero to rest and recover and reflect, the account for the audience too,
36:06
then you're really missing out on the opportunity to surprise number elevate them,
36:10
you know, on the roller coaster ride of ups and downs on the next
36:15
turn. That's why the roller coaster is not all the way up for a
36:19
mile and then all the way down for a mile. That's why there's ups
36:21
and downs because if not, you couldn't handle it. And the same thing
36:23
goes for like tension, like if you watch a Hitchcock film, he's such
36:28
a master at it him. He just he would just play the audience like
36:30
a like a fiddle, and he'd go up and you go down, and
36:34
he go up. But if you hold it too long, you hold that
36:36
note too long, just like in a song, you're going to lose the
36:38
audience. The interesting thing about a hit Scot that always really impressed me was
36:46
how he not only would he manage tension, but he would manage the audience's
36:50
allegiance with characters. Oh yeah, sharing for the hero for eight minutes,
36:55
and then we'll go through a door and we'll be on the other side of
36:59
the door with the and stuck in a situation, and we'll be rooting for
37:02
the villain, waiting for him to be you know, I worried about him
37:06
getting caught by the cop that we were just cheering four a minute ago.
37:08
And he would take our emotions and put them back and forth like nobody had
37:14
ever seen since. Right, Yeah, I mean, and let's not even
37:16
get into psycho, I mean killing off. I mean, sorry, spoiler
37:20
alert everyone killing off the main movie star in the first act, just like
37:24
what can you imagine in nineteen sixty doing that, like it's all yeah,
37:31
it was insane. I think it's one of the things that made Game of
37:36
Throne so successful until the end was that until the end, we never knew
37:43
whose head was going to get shopped off, right or what other body part
37:46
might get shopped off. You know, we were always surprised, and they
37:51
kept us, you know, Benny off and wise kept us on the edge
37:53
of our seats. You know, every every night we caned in. Did
37:57
you are you a fan of Walking Dead? Um? No, it is
38:02
the quick answer to it. So, uh, you know, I live
38:06
in Atlanta now, and so it is a part of you know, the
38:09
Atlantic culture and certainly with the proliferation of film production in Georgia now. UM
38:16
Walking Dead and Vampire Diaries are two of these series in recent years that help
38:22
stand as a healthy foundation to build much of this UM, you know,
38:27
production infrastructure. So it's big worldwide. I think it's recognized as being a
38:34
one of the if not the most successful television show UM in in history,
38:39
right UM broadcasts or otherwise UM, and I was just never a big fan
38:45
of zombies and people will come to be and it's all about the characters,
38:50
it is, And I get it, and I've seen a few episodes,
38:53
but this was never my jam. And when you guys would come, you
38:58
know, urging out of the shadows, you know, with their faces feeling
39:01
off and their eyes falling out, you know, the same goal of eating
39:06
our hero, I, um, it just didn't grab It didn't grab me,
39:10
you know, um whether it grabbed any other people, it just feels
39:15
a show you can't please all the people all the time. You have to
39:17
m fell the store the best you can, or you know, the market
39:22
you hope to achieve. Yeah, I mean I was a fan of that
39:24
show for probably about five or six seasons. But then there was a major
39:28
There's a main character that a villain that came in and he just kept beating.
39:32
Are the characters I've loved so much that there was no break. So
39:37
the villain Degan, which just he was just it was just like a punch.
39:42
But normally when you have a villain that's like that powerful, you gotta
39:45
get a couple of licks in. But they just kept beating to the point
39:49
where I just got tired of watching my characters that I had fallen in love
39:52
with get beaten so much. I'm like, I'm out, I can't.
39:54
I just can't deal with this anymore. And it turned me off personally.
39:59
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back to
40:06
the show. And the ratings did eventually go down. I think they had
40:12
been going down a little bit. They're still super popular, um, but
40:15
that was that was a mistake that I saw. It was like, I
40:16
can never do that with a character of mine, where if you have an
40:20
imagine if Darth Vader never he just kept pounding on Luke to the point where
40:24
Luke just could never get up. What's the point. What's the point?
40:29
Yeah, you're right, we don't want to see that we're investing in those
40:31
characters. And if it makes you feel any better, I m You know,
40:35
I'm teaching screenwriting at university here and I often take a temperature read on
40:42
what's happening in culture and the zeit guys based on my nineteen twenty twenty one
40:46
year old you know, students in the program, and I had them watched
40:50
Walking Dead a couple of weeks ago, talking about how you know, film
40:52
production and television production is you know, increased in the state. And I
40:59
asked why they lost interest and they said the exact same thing, really characters,
41:05
because somebody identified with this character, identified with that character. And in
41:09
general, the answer was because they kept killing off the people that we love.
41:15
So if you're doing that, and the Game of Thrones credit what they
41:20
did do was if they killed off somebody, they were bringing somebody in the
41:23
bringing somebody, they will bring somebody there, and so that there was constantly
41:29
rebirth while there was death. Yeah, and that was one of the big
41:35
problems, like I was walking dead in generals, like they would kill off
41:38
I mean that was kind of the exciting thing that you never knew who There
41:42
was no one safe really except for maybe a couple of top guys that you
41:45
knew they're not going to kill off. And you were like, no,
41:47
is this the week? No, don't don't Why did you get rid of
41:51
them? And that's always a rough it's a rough situation. And even though
41:54
they brought new guys it, but then they would kill them off. It
41:57
was just like, emotionally, it's a bit much. I wonder if in
42:02
the old day before social media allowed everybody to event and talk about everything that
42:07
was happening. If that was a more insular experience and also a more secretive
42:15
experience. Now, if somebody dies in an episode, everybody's going to know
42:20
about it within ninety seconds of it happened, because it's all over social media,
42:24
and so for those who haven't seen it yet, it's ruining the surprise
42:29
of the filmmakers or show creators have worked so hard to create, oftentimes over
42:35
many episodes or even many seasons. Yeah, and it's it's it's it's look,
42:38
it's storytelling in general. From the times when we were coming up to
42:43
the now, the audience is so much more savvy, so much more educated.
42:47
They understand terminology like plot points, like the hero's journey, like you
42:52
know, the point of no return. These are things that a lot of
42:55
audience members, even if they might not know the articulation of it, they
43:00
can recognize it because they've been Like there's generations who've just been raised Like I
43:06
was a TV guy. I'm sure you were. We watched TVs and movies
43:07
constantly growing up. VHSS came up, and that was the first time we
43:12
could just watch anything and everything all the time. But now take that and
43:16
put it on steroids, and now it's everything's instant ever made. It allows
43:22
us to do now with storytellers, And what I encourage my students to do
43:28
is to take the sort of paradigms that were used to that they're used to
43:34
and manipulate it in fresh new ways. And I think it's one of the
43:37
reasons, you know, Christopher Nolan's work has meant such popularity is because he's
43:43
twisting and turning at such a rate and surprising us in such a way nowadays
43:47
that even those you do know about block points and character arts are seeing those
43:54
things turned on their ear and that is refreshing and that is exciting. Same
44:00
thing with Tarantino's work. You know, there's there's certain but the guys you're
44:06
talking just putting those two in the same sense as like they're they're absolute masters,
44:09
right, And this is part of what I preached too, is their
44:14
masters because they understand the foundations of the genre and foundations of the medium first
44:21
and foremost of those things better than anybody, which allows them the healthy footing
44:29
to take it and mix it all up and do it in a whole new
44:32
way. Yeah, it's but you need you're right. It's kind of like
44:36
being a master baker and you know every element of the ingredients and what those
44:40
ingredients can do. And now I'm gonna I'm gonna do something that you've never
44:44
seen before. But I understand if you need me to make a chocolate cake,
44:46
I'll make your chocolate cake. It's gonna blow your mind. Right,
44:49
But my chocolate cake now is going to explode and you're gonna love it.
44:52
Have a vocado in it world, and it's like avocado chocolate cake. What?
44:59
And then you take like, how have I not thought of this before?
45:01
And that's like watching a Tarantino Loland movie. Um. And now,
45:07
one thing you talk about in your book sneaky transitions? Can you can you
45:10
elaborate about that a little bit? Um? Sure? So, speaking of
45:16
old action movies, do you remember Highlander? Of course? It should could
45:21
be only one, right, it should be it. Actually, I wouldn't
45:23
mind a reboot of that. I would love to see, like a good
45:25
one. That would be a good reboot. Yeah. So one of the
45:30
things that I loved about that movie, um, is that the transitions were
45:37
so clever and subtle, taking us not only from one scene to the next,
45:43
but oftentimes from one time period to another time period, and it made
45:50
the storytelling creative, creative and effortless, and and those transitions were part of
45:57
the story, so it wasn't like a ring departure, a jarring transition.
46:02
When when those transitions can be part of the story and help push story forward,
46:07
or help reveal character some way, or help elevate, you know,
46:12
the overall theme of the story. That's when I think the movies are working
46:15
on all cylinders, because not only is character right and stories right and actions
46:20
right, but also going from one scene to the next just keeps us on
46:25
an even keel, moving without stopping to realize that we're actually in a movie.
46:32
And that's something that drives me crazy in movies is that when we get
46:37
pushed and pulled out of the film, it it removes us from sort of
46:45
the emotional connection we have with the hero. My students love dead Pool,
46:50
and I can appreciate the masterful filmmaking and the incredibly brilliant acting and the wittiful,
46:58
you know dialogue. I I are all that, but I'm constantly being
47:01
pulled out of that story because of its metas and reminds me I'm watching a
47:07
story, and so I am partially because I grew up on you know,
47:12
old films. So I don't want people to keep jumping in and reminding me
47:15
that, you know, we're watching a movie. I want to be lost
47:19
in it and feeling it, you know, And I think smooth transitions allow
47:23
us to be that. And of course the soundtrack of Queen, I mean
47:27
that also helped that movie. And Rhapsody a little bit. That was so
47:32
amazing. That's such a it's such a great film. Um. Now I'm
47:37
gonna ask you a few questions. I ask all of my guests, what
47:39
advice would you give a screenwriter wanting to break into the business today. Um,
47:45
we've already been hidden this a little bit, but learned the craft.
47:47
I mean a lot of people have great ideas and they crank them out on
47:52
topdown apkins or paper towels, right, Um. But taking them from great
47:55
ideas to um, great screen takes an understanding, you know, of the
48:01
way movies are will len in the way stories are told. And so whether
48:06
it's taking seminars, taking workshops, taking classes, reading scripts, watching movies,
48:12
all those things are going to help educate you in a way or you
48:16
to develop your own style. I think a lot of students, you know,
48:21
and you know workshop attendees or potential students, and you know attendees have
48:28
reservations thinking that understanding the way what they term formula or template or structure is
48:34
going to impede their creative process, and I say, it does not help
48:37
you. So I think that is the first thing. And also knowing that,
48:43
like, if you write a great script, I think, and you
48:49
get it in the hands of people that recognize great scripts, the universe is
48:54
going to conspire support you. Right, So it's like you don't have to
48:59
think you're out. You know everything, But the hardest thing to figure out
49:04
is how to write great screenplays. And I've had a number of students over
49:07
the years in workshops or otherwise that when they wrote great scripts, they consistently
49:15
would win a screencraft festival and slam Dance and Nashville and Austin and Atlanta because
49:22
those independent festival channels of judges that we're looking at great screenplays, that we're
49:29
looking at eight hundred here, twelve hundred there, two thousand there all recognized
49:34
that great writing. So really the key is write a great script and then
49:37
get it into the hands of people that recognize great scripts excellent advice. Sir,
49:44
What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, Whether in
49:46
the film industry or in life. The answer to both is saying, and
49:53
it's listen better. Yes, We'll be right back after a word from our
50:01
sponsor, and now back to the show. You know, um, I
50:12
think you know oftentimes you know, we writers are communicators, and we are
50:16
expressive, and we are when given the opportunity or not given the opportunity,
50:22
we want to impose our opinions, our values, our beliefs, our thoughts.
50:27
And you know, I'm as a teacher in me that wants to help
50:30
teach, right, So you're constantly expressing the problem is, if you're constantly
50:36
you know, yeah, Ben, then there's no room for you to really
50:43
learn. And I think you know it's in teaching that something along the lines
50:46
of you know, um, you know this, to speak the wise our
50:55
silence basically, and those who are unwise are the properts. So I think
51:00
the more you can listen to feedback you're given from those you're working with in
51:06
a creative setting and those in your personal lines as well, I think it
51:13
u will help make you a better writer and a better bit. What is
51:17
the biggest fear you had to overcome when you was writing your first script?
51:24
Wow, the biggest fear, Oh, I want to remember. It probably
51:29
wasn't the first script, it was the second script. But I was so
51:32
caught up in trying to double to double cross and triple cross and quadruple cross
51:38
the audience to make it the coolest clever attorney clever and that I could that
51:45
I got so lost in it that I couldn't find my way out of it.
51:51
And it's because I didn't have a foundational understanding it the time. I
51:54
learned a lot of doing it, but because I was so caught up in
51:59
the maelstrum, the storm of all those double crosses, I literally couldn't,
52:02
you know, find a clear road to finishing. And it took me a
52:07
long time. Like you know, contractually now as writers with the w GA,
52:10
if we're hired to write an original screenplay, we get twelve weeks and
52:14
we have to deliver in twelve weeks. You don't get six months, for
52:20
eight months or two years, you know, and so um, and that
52:23
can happen if you don't have a clear roadmap and that's where a clear understanding
52:29
of storytelling and structure helps, because you don't get lost, you don't get
52:35
stuck, you know. And three of your favorite films of all time?
52:40
Wow, we talked about two of them probably okay, so Die Hardened alital
52:45
and Die Harder definitely up there on all time, you know. And I
52:49
got to say, the one movie that was the movie that led me to
52:54
realize as a young punk that I wanted to become a filmmaker was Writers The
53:00
Lost Are So good. So when I was a young man Atlanta, Georgia.
53:05
In Atlanta, Georgia, I stumbled out of the theater and I remember
53:08
looking up at the stars after the movie, thinking that's what I want to
53:13
do with my life. And when I was twenty one and I landed in
53:17
Los Angeles as a young man, you know, my first you know,
53:21
year out of phone school, the job I landed was working for Steven Spielberg
53:27
on Indiana Jones and The Last Crusade. Also, my life became full circle
53:34
in the ways that in a way that you know a few people that's a
53:37
good fortune of Well, we'll have to do another episode in the Last Crusade
53:40
Adventures because I'd love to know how that was. That set was like,
53:45
yeah, yeah, Now what can people find you and your book and everything
53:51
about what you're doing. Sure? So my book Price Boom Bang How to
53:54
Write Action Movies is available you know, in Barnes and Noble if there's any
53:59
of those, and on Amazon, And my publisher's website was at w MWP
54:06
dot com. UM and my t screen running workshops usually housed at Immer University
54:13
in Atlanta a few times a year and let's screenwriter School dot com. UM.
54:19
And they can follow us UM for tidbits and tricks on screenwriting on Facebook
54:27
UM. And they can email me anytime if they wish at Michael at Screenwriter
54:30
School dot com. Be careful what you wish for. You might get a
54:34
couple of emails. So look to Michael. Thank you so much for coming
54:38
on Man and then dropping the knowledge bombs on the on the Tribe today.
54:40
So thank you again, Man, thank you. I want to thank Michael
54:45
so much for being on the show and dropping his knowledge bombs on the Tribe.
54:50
I am a big fan of action movies obviously. Again, look we
54:53
said in the show, I don't I don't want to watch Commando again because
54:58
in my mind it's perfect. Some films age better than others, but I
55:04
hope you got something out of this episode. Thank you so much. If
55:07
you want to get a link to anything we talked about in this episode,
55:09
please head over the show notes at Indie film huscle dot com Forward slash six
55:14
eighty three, and if you have it already, please head over to Filmmaking
55:17
podcast dot com. Subscribe and leave a good review for the show. It
55:22
really helps us out a lot, guys. Thank you again so much for
55:24
listening to guys. As always, keep that hustle going, keep that dream
55:28
alive, stay safe out there, and I'll talk to you soon. Thanks
55:30
for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at Indie film Hustle dot com.
55:36
That's I N D I E F I L M hustl dot com.