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16 Million Podcast Downloads - Jack Laurence · Books4Guys

0:15
SPEAKER_01: The second person based all out of Australia that I've had on, too.
0:20
SPEAKER_00: So privileged to be here.
0:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm excited to have you on.
0:25
SPEAKER_01: And Jack, we were kind of just talking, man, for before we push record about just all the cool things that you're doing.
0:32
SPEAKER_01: And man, you haven't really been doing it that long in the grand scheme of things, but you have podcasts that are literally at the top of the charts.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: And like I said, I came across your profile and I was like, I gotta get Jack on here.
0:43
SPEAKER_01: He's he's crushing the podcast game.
0:46
SPEAKER_01: And I know you put in a lot of work.
0:48
SPEAKER_01: We were talking about that too.
0:49
SPEAKER_01: You put in so much work to get these to where they're at, and you don't really get a lot of people probably saying, like, hey man, this is great.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just a constant heads down.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: And so I was like, I'm gonna I'm gonna get Jack on here and let him share his story and let him know, you know, there's some people out here cheering you on and noticing all the cool accomplishments that you're doing.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I appreciate it because I generally just read the bad reviews on the podcast, and you know it always goes, right?
1:13
SPEAKER_02: There's there's plenty of those, so don't worry about that, that's for sure.
1:16
SPEAKER_02: That's the thing, the the more people that listen, the the more likely are you are to get criticism.
1:21
SPEAKER_02: And I take all the criticism to heart.
1:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:25
SPEAKER_02: People say don't read.
1:26
SPEAKER_02: I work with uh because I worked in radio for about 15 years here, and I I worked with a couple of people who are quite um well known in the Australian media, uh, and their one rule was never read the comments.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: Um and I can't sometimes I can't help myself because you you your ego goes looking for the the good comments, but then of course, uh undoubtedly you found the find the bad ones and they're the ones that stand out the most.
1:47
SPEAKER_02: Even if there's just one amongst many good ones, it's just that one that you just you you sort of stew on all day long.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
1:54
SPEAKER_01: No, man, I get it.
1:56
SPEAKER_01: It seems to be kind of a common theme, especially around people who are like they're high achievers or they're striving to be the best.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: You know, there there's an aspect of like wanting to make something that everybody loves.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, when you're doing something with hundreds and thousands of people that are following and listening, there's obviously gonna be somebody that doesn't like it or has something to say.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: So you really do have to figure out a way to just not let that knock all of the good comments and all of the, you know, the things that people do love about what you're doing, but I know that's tough.
2:31
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, look, it is tough.
2:32
SPEAKER_02: It is really hard.
2:34
SPEAKER_02: I mean, as they say, you can't please everyone all the time.
2:36
SPEAKER_02: And you know, it and and they also and people also say, look, if you're not if you're not upsetting someone, you're not doing it properly, and all these sorts of things, but that still doesn't.
2:45
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I I had to Spotify does this thing where people can comment um on your episodes, every episode you put out, uh, and you know, obviously you get a notification every time someone's comments.
2:55
SPEAKER_02: And on one of my podcasts, I eventually had to turn it off because I thought it's a good I th initially I thought it was a good thing because people will write reviews on Apple podcasts, and some of them are just so ridiculous, and you just want to respond and go, what are you talking about?
3:08
SPEAKER_02: That's insanity.
3:09
SPEAKER_02: But then so then on Spotify you can reply, but then I found myself just spending too much time responding to people who were obviously didn't like what I did, and I was never gonna convince them otherwise.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: Uh but I couldn't, it's like you know, it's like you're getting into arguments with people on social media, it's pointless.
3:25
SPEAKER_02: It's like, what are you doing with your life?
3:26
SPEAKER_02: You're never gonna change someone's opinion via social media, you're just going to waste your entire day going back and forward with with most of the time a lunatic who you would never talk to in real life, but who you're trying to convince, you know, that you're correct.
3:40
SPEAKER_02: So and then you and then you look back, you know, you take a step back and you look from the outside and you realize that you're also the lunatic because you're right with so much.
3:48
SPEAKER_02: So I had to turn the comments off on Spotify for a little while.
3:51
SPEAKER_02: Not that, you know, I was getting stacks of bad comments, but it just, as I said, one bad comment, and that would be me for the entire day.
3:57
SPEAKER_02: And I overthink things.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: My my wife thinks I've got undiagnosed ADHD because my brain just doesn't stop and doesn't switch off, and I'm constantly overthinking and, you know, catastrophizing, you know, people.
4:08
SPEAKER_02: It's so funny, obviously, you know, I I post all these numbers and stuff on LinkedIn, again, ego-driven.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, just it's nice to get nice comments and likes and stuff like that.
4:16
SPEAKER_02: You know, those dopamine hit that you need uh to keep yourself going.
4:20
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, I so even though you see these numbers and these charts and stuff like that, I still spend my days thinking that tomorrow this is all gonna end and I'm gonna have to go back to getting a real job.
4:30
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I I as I said, I get one bad comment and then I think, well, that's it, the podcast is over, everybody hates it.
4:36
SPEAKER_02: So I I sort of torment myself on a daily basis in regards to all of this stuff.
4:41
SPEAKER_02: So what I'm trying to say is all those fancy chart positions and and all that.
4:44
SPEAKER_02: It's very nice, don't get me wrong, and it and it helps me pay my bills, but it's not like I'm sitting here like I I've won the lottery and I, you know, I've got it all worked out and I know how this works and blah, blah, blah.
4:53
SPEAKER_02: It's uh it's not the case.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
4:55
SPEAKER_01: No, well, I i in a way I think that's a healthy mindset to have because if you're near the top or at the top, well, obviously there's there's others coming for that spot.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: It's hard to hang on to that uh that location uh with your work.
5:09
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, you do have to continue to work.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: You know, you can't make it and then stop.
5:13
SPEAKER_01: It's okay.
5:14
SPEAKER_01: What's next?
5:16
SPEAKER_01: You're young, you got a lot to do.
5:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh you can only be satisfied satisfied for so long.
5:22
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you find a lot of passion in the actual work, in the conversations, and putting everything together, um which is a good thing, man.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: That's actually a good thing.
5:32
SPEAKER_01: That means you'll hopefully be doing this for a long time and be very successful with it.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh and all that to say, man, I w I wanna I wanna dive in because I've been seeing your post, man.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: What I survived is is what's really popping right now.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: Hundreds of thousands of downloads.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: And you you've got season two coming.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: But I want Jack, I'd love for you just kind of start because I want you to talk about all the podcasts you've been been a part of and in creating.
5:58
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, this one is one that you're very proud of right now because of the attention it's getting.
6:02
SPEAKER_01: But you mentioned you know, you spent a lot of time in radio, and then I would love for you to talk about your transition over to podcasts.
6:10
SPEAKER_01: What did that look like?
6:12
SPEAKER_01: How did you get started, and really just what that process has looked like to get to where you're at now, which is at the top of the charts.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: I'll try and condense it because it's a it's a it's a fairly long story.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, I spent, as I said, f I spent 15 years working in the Australian radio uh uh industry.
6:29
SPEAKER_02: That kind of happened by accident, getting into that.
6:32
SPEAKER_02: I was 18 and I was working as a as a realtor, a real estate agent selling homes, uh, and I hated that job.
6:38
SPEAKER_02: I sort of bounced, I never had a clear direction when I left school.
6:41
SPEAKER_02: I was never one of these people who knew exactly what I wanted to do.
6:44
SPEAKER_02: Like my brother, from the uh age he could talk, he always wanted to be a cop.
6:47
SPEAKER_02: He wanted to be a police officer, that was it.
6:49
SPEAKER_02: That's all he wanted to do, and and he ended up doing that.
6:51
SPEAKER_02: And but I was different.
6:53
SPEAKER_02: I had no direction, didn't know what I wanted to do.
6:56
SPEAKER_02: I did terribly in school, dropped out of school at 16, went to work with my parents who had their own business, was a fridge mechanic, did all these weird and different jobs.
7:06
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then eventually I was sort of sitting in the car one day listening to a guy talking on the radio, and you went, Oh and I went, you know what?
7:12
SPEAKER_02: I might I I reckon I could do that.
7:14
SPEAKER_02: That sounds like fun.
7:16
SPEAKER_02: And sort of just, you know, found a community radio.
7:19
SPEAKER_02: We have community, I don't know if it's the same in the US, but we have community radio stations where you can go and you don't get paid, you work for free.
7:25
SPEAKER_02: And I did that to sort of get some experience, and that was it, really.
7:28
SPEAKER_02: They're sort of off and running from there and spent 15 years jumping around the country, um, doing different shows, um, working for different, you know, different stations and whatnot.
7:37
SPEAKER_02: And after 15, well, before 15 years, but certainly after 15 years, I'd really hit my sort of like, I'm done with this.
7:43
SPEAKER_02: I probably stayed in that career a little longer than I should have, but that was because of the fear of not knowing what else to do.
7:47
SPEAKER_02: Because I sort of, as I said, had no direction, found radio, and then because I had no qualifications, I'd really done not much else apart from the radio.
7:56
SPEAKER_02: I was like, well, I don't know what I'm gonna do.
7:58
SPEAKER_02: And I was getting paid pretty well in my fine sort of my final position that I was in.
8:03
SPEAKER_02: And I was and the must so the money was good.
8:05
SPEAKER_02: I've got a wife, two kids at this point, and a m you know, a mortgage to pay.
8:09
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and I'm like, well, I just can't just quit my job.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: Or, you know, I need to keep earning.
8:14
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I stayed a bit longer, and then eventually um I I got myself in a position where I was just like depressed, basically.
8:22
SPEAKER_02: I was just, you know, I hate to use the word depressed because I think it gets thrown around thrown around a lot.
8:26
SPEAKER_02: Um I wasn't sort of clinically depressed, but I was definitely, you know, not in a happy place.
8:31
SPEAKER_02: Um and my wife was like, You've got to do something because we can't live like this because I would just be on Sunday, I would just be sort of shut off, staring into the sky, just hating the fact that I had to go to work on Monday.
8:45
SPEAKER_02: And so I was sort of trying to think of a way I could get out of radio.
8:49
SPEAKER_02: How am I gonna get out of here?
8:51
SPEAKER_02: Uh and podcasting came into my mind, but I or or I sort of knew how difficult it was.
8:56
SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of podcasts.
8:57
SPEAKER_02: I was, you know, had this same sort of thought process everyone does.
9:00
SPEAKER_02: Oh, well, everyone's got a podcast, you know.
9:02
SPEAKER_02: I'll never make any money from a podcast.
9:04
SPEAKER_02: And but I thought, well, I I'm not gonna make any money if I don't at least try.
9:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, and sort of four years before all of this, I found a story online.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: Um, I was working on the radio, obviously, and part of my job was to find content to talk about on the radio that day.
9:17
SPEAKER_02: And there'd been a this massive win in the Australian lottery, over a hundred million or something like that, and a crazy win.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: And then so I was reading that story, and then attached to that story was another story about this thing called the lottery curse.
9:29
SPEAKER_02: So there's this notion that people who win the lottery, like 90% of people who win big in the lottery within a year, have no money left, no friends, they go on these big benders and their lives are ruined by the lottery.
9:40
SPEAKER_02: It's called the lottery curse.
9:42
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, this is fascinating.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: Like winning the lottery is the dream for most people.
9:45
SPEAKER_02: So I started doing a bit of research on that, thinking that might make a good idea sort of podcast, you know, investigating the lottery curse.
9:52
SPEAKER_02: And because I found all these stories of people who had lost everything.
9:55
SPEAKER_02: And one of those stories that I found was about a guy called Abraham Lee Shakespeare, who's from Flor who was from Flum from Florida, and he'd won 17 million in the Florida lottery.
10:05
SPEAKER_02: But within a year, he was found deceased and buried in a in a woman's backyard called Dorese Moore.
10:12
SPEAKER_02: And she was arrested, tried, and convicted for them for murder, but always claimed she was innocent of it and she didn't commit the crime.
10:18
SPEAKER_02: So it was a fascinating story, and I thought, well, this will make a great couple of episodes for this lottery podcast if I can get her to talk to me.
10:26
SPEAKER_02: So I wrote her a letter and said, Hey, this is I'm a podcaster, a journalist from Australia.
10:30
SPEAKER_02: Uh, would you tell me your story?
10:32
SPEAKER_02: And she wrote back and said, Yep, I'd love to.
10:34
SPEAKER_02: Um, but then four years passed.
10:36
SPEAKER_02: I did nothing with it for four years.
10:37
SPEAKER_02: I sort of, I sort of put together this lottery or an episode of this lottery podcast.
10:42
SPEAKER_02: But at the end of the day, it sounded more like an ad for the lottery than it did like interesting.
10:48
SPEAKER_02: I hadn't spoken to her yet.
10:49
SPEAKER_02: She was sort of still in the in the background.
10:51
SPEAKER_02: I just started making this lottery podcast.
10:54
SPEAKER_02: And and it was a pain in the backside because I was no one, obviously, people who win a lot of money then lose it all and become, you know, derelict and that funnily enough, don't want to brag about it on a podcast.
11:05
SPEAKER_02: So no one would talk to me.
11:06
SPEAKER_02: And then I sort of thought, well, you know what, let's let me just talk to this lady who was in prison.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: Still a fascinating story.
11:10
SPEAKER_02: I might be able to make something of that.
11:12
SPEAKER_02: And anyway, she was telling me a story and it was really confusing, uh, really convoluted.
11:17
SPEAKER_02: She was going off on tangents because she was obviously it's been her life since she's been incarcerated.
11:21
SPEAKER_02: So she was jumping off here and there, and I was like, How am I gonna make any sense of this?
11:24
SPEAKER_02: I didn't know anything about American law.
11:27
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I said to her, look, I was actually, so she said to me one day, she said, Do you want to speak to my law clerk who's helping me get back into court?
11:34
SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, Yeah, sure.
11:35
SPEAKER_02: I said, give me her number and I'll give her a call.
11:37
SPEAKER_02: And she said, No, no, no, I can arrange it from here.
11:39
SPEAKER_02: I said, What do you mean?
11:40
SPEAKER_02: She goes, She's in prison with me.
11:44
SPEAKER_02: And so, and at this point, I was very naive to the prison system in America and I didn't realize that law clerks are a thing.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: There are prisoners who are incarcerated who become sort of these, I suppose, not lawyers, but they they study and they learn the law and they help others with their cases.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: And but I was just like, this is fascinating.
12:01
SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, yeah, I'd love to talk to her.
12:03
SPEAKER_02: And so she said, okay.
12:04
SPEAKER_02: And so then this other lady, Kimberly Boone, called me and I said, Look, Kim, before we start talking about Doris's story, can you tell me a little bit about your background and how you ended up where you are?
12:14
SPEAKER_02: And she taught, she then proceeded to tell me that she'd been arrested, tried, and convicted, not once, but twice for the attempted murder of her husband.
12:21
SPEAKER_02: Once for shooting him, but she was acquitted of that.
12:24
SPEAKER_02: And then the second one was for setting this house fire with him inside.
12:28
SPEAKER_02: And it was a wild story as well.
12:29
SPEAKER_02: So then I had this sort of light bulb moment where I'm like, this is this is the podcast.
12:34
SPEAKER_02: I need to talk to prisoners and hear these insane stories.
12:38
SPEAKER_02: So I went back to Doris and and all the while doing all this, I'm still working at the radio while I'm doing all this.
12:43
SPEAKER_02: So and I went back to Doree's, I said, Hey, I've got a new idea.
12:46
SPEAKER_02: I want to tell the stories of people who are incarcerated.
12:49
SPEAKER_02: Because then I started thinking about, you know, documentaries and stuff you watch about crime and stuff, because I was a massive crime documentary lover.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: I loved all that stuff.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: And I sort of realized you don't generally hear from the people who've been arrested.
12:59
SPEAKER_02: You always hear from the, you know, judges, police, all those people when they're telling a crime story.
13:04
SPEAKER_02: You don't usually hear from people who've been arrested.
13:06
SPEAKER_02: And also when you're arrested, you're told to shut up, don't talk to police, let your lawyer talk.
13:10
SPEAKER_02: When you go to trial, you're told by your attorney, sit down, shut up, don't say a word.
13:14
SPEAKER_02: You very rarely ever get up in your own defense.
13:18
SPEAKER_02: So you never talk really.
13:20
SPEAKER_02: And then you, if you're found guilty, you're then sent to prison.
13:22
SPEAKER_02: And no one wants to hear your story because, in the eyes of everyone, you're all guilty.
13:26
SPEAKER_02: And uh, so I was like, This is what I'm gonna do.
13:28
SPEAKER_02: I said, Do you think you'll be able to help me find anyone else to talk to?
13:30
SPEAKER_02: And she said, I'm sure I could find a few people.
13:33
SPEAKER_02: And that's when my first ever podcast was well, not first, I did create a podcast a long time ago, but it was terrible.
13:38
SPEAKER_02: And that was uh that was my show called One Minute Remaining: Stories from the Inmates.
13:41
SPEAKER_02: Uh, I created that show, and that was my very first podcast.
13:44
SPEAKER_02: And so what was happening because of the time difference, obviously, like I'm talking to you now, it's it's 6 a.m.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: here.
13:49
SPEAKER_02: So I was talking to these prisoners, you know, at sort of four in the morning, five in the morning, recording those calls, trying to edit as much as I could, then go to work, come home, do the kids' stuff, get them to bed, back into my kids' toy room.
14:03
SPEAKER_02: I was doing it in my kids' toy room at the time.
14:05
SPEAKER_02: Going in there, editing, cutting it all up, building da-da-da, and then rinse and repeat the next day.
14:10
SPEAKER_02: And I was going into the office and people were running up to me asking me because they knew what I was doing.
14:14
SPEAKER_02: And then people are fascinated, oh, what happened today?
14:16
SPEAKER_02: And ask me questions.
14:17
SPEAKER_02: So that kind of was like, oh, well, that's interesting.
14:19
SPEAKER_02: These people are like super fascinated with what I'm doing, and they're just like hounding me every day for more stories.
14:25
SPEAKER_02: So this sounds like this could actually do quite well.
14:28
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I eventually said to my wife, like, I said, Look, I can't keep doing this, these hours.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm gonna I'm just I if I'm gonna do this, I think I need to just go all in.
14:36
SPEAKER_02: I need to quit my job and just just have a crack and just see if this will work.
14:42
SPEAKER_02: Um, and at that point, we borrowed some money from the bank to do some renovations on our house.
14:46
SPEAKER_02: So it's like we could use that money instead to just pay the mortgage while I try and make this a business or you know, my try and make this make money.
14:55
SPEAKER_02: Uh and she said, Look, you've got three months.
14:58
SPEAKER_02: Three months to make money from your podcast, otherwise, you're gonna need to go back and start looking for a job.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: She works full-time as well, so it's not like she didn't work, she she was sort of covering a lot of the bills as well.
15:09
SPEAKER_02: Um that seems very fair though.
15:10
SPEAKER_01: That's like that's pretty great support.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: Great wife.
15:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
15:13
SPEAKER_02: I totally, I mean, look, without her, I there's no way I would have been able to do it.
15:16
SPEAKER_02: She's supported me with my career throughout entire.
15:18
SPEAKER_02: She's the she's my best friend and just an absolute amazing human being.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: And she supported the family while I went off and built this podcast stuff.
15:24
SPEAKER_02: But as you know, like making money on podcasts is not an easy thing at all.
15:29
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, most people don't make money on podcasts.
15:32
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it just that's why it frustrates me when people complain about ads in podcasts.
15:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, it's free content.
15:37
SPEAKER_02: Like, how else do you think we're gonna make our money?
15:39
SPEAKER_02: And then when I explained to people like how many downloads you actually have to get in order to make like$12, it's like they're like, oh wow.
15:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, yes, it's not easy.
15:48
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, so I joined ACast, the sort of distribution, podcast distribution company, put my show in there.
15:54
SPEAKER_02: But I was doing to start with maybe 500 downloads a week, which is pretty good for a new podcast.
16:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
16:00
SPEAKER_02: But at nowhere near where I needed to be to make any money.
16:03
SPEAKER_02: Like 500 a week, you're making nothing, basically, you're not making any money.
16:06
SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, how am I gonna get this rolling?
16:09
SPEAKER_02: And so I just this is where my sort of I think my undiagnosed ADHD comes into play because when I get on something, I become hyper focused.
16:16
SPEAKER_02: And I'm just like, I just zone in and like that is all that's happening right now until you know.
16:22
SPEAKER_02: So I just zoned in and I'm like, someone, uh a friend of mine at the time um on bags said to me, Hey, the best way to find new audience is to get on other podcasts who have got audience.
16:35
SPEAKER_02: Um, so I just started handing other shows about, hey, this is what I do.
16:39
SPEAKER_02: And I had a pretty good headline to my email.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: It's like I quit my radio career 15 years to talk to convicted murderers.
16:45
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it's a pretty good headline to send through to people.
16:49
SPEAKER_02: And I was really lucky to jag three shows.
16:52
SPEAKER_02: Like we went on a show called the Alpha Blokes, which is huge in over here in Australia, massive, massive show.
16:58
SPEAKER_02: Not not my not really crime audience.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: Like they're they're very male-dominated, you know.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: So I but I went on that show.
17:04
SPEAKER_02: They do crazy numbers.
17:05
SPEAKER_02: I don't know the exact numbers, but it's a couple hundred thousand a week in downloads.
17:09
SPEAKER_02: You've got um Australian True Crime, which is a show that's been around for a very, very long time over here, which is also a massive show in Australia, and then True Crime Conversations, another big show.
17:19
SPEAKER_02: So I contacted those three, told them what I did, and they all were like, Yeah, come on, we'd love to talk to you.
17:23
SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, every podcaster is looking for their next episode.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: So I gave them that.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: Uh and it was around Christmas time as well, which was a good time to hit shows because most people are going on holiday and they want to record ahead to you know put content out so they can take a break.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: Anyway, they had me on.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: I was going overseas that year.
17:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh my father-in-law lives in Bali, so we went to Bali to see him.
17:42
SPEAKER_02: I took all my recording equipment with me, um, which I've done in the last four years.
17:46
SPEAKER_02: My my wife kind of regrets, you know, this whole thing because I spend my holidays now just talking to prisoners, but just in different sunny locations.
17:53
SPEAKER_02: And but these interviews with these shows kind of dropped almost every uh one after the other.
18:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, and I went from that 500 downloads a week to 100,000 downloads a week.
18:06
SPEAKER_02: Like almost, almost overnight.
18:08
SPEAKER_02: Like you can see it on the graph, it sort of just suddenly shoots up.
18:12
SPEAKER_02: Um and that was it.
18:13
SPEAKER_02: The b the ball was rolling then, and and off and away we went.
18:16
SPEAKER_02: And and since then I I've launched so I think because I was like, you know, one minute remaining is great, but I need I'm not gonna be able to this longevity-wise, I need more than one minute remaining.
18:26
SPEAKER_02: And then I saw then I came up with a show called Crime at Bedtime, which is just basically me reading crime stories to people as they fall asleep at night.
18:33
SPEAKER_02: Because and that was born because someone said, I listen to you one minute remaining as I'm going to sleep at night, it puts me to sleep.
18:39
SPEAKER_02: I can either take that, take offense to that, or I could come up with an idea and say, hey, how about I create a show dedicated to those people?
18:46
SPEAKER_02: Because uh, there's a huge audience.
18:48
SPEAKER_02: People like to listen to crime stories to fall asleep at night.
18:51
SPEAKER_02: And crime at bedtime actually overtook one minute remaining in downloads very, very quickly.
18:55
SPEAKER_02: Uh so that that show was born, and then off the back of that, I created the second sleep podcast, which was called Mysteries at Bedtime.
19:03
SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then I created actually the first that actually the second show I created was called Wanted, but that was a mini-series, it was just a 12-episode mini-series uh interviewing people who um are wanted by authorities or have been wanted by authorities.
19:16
SPEAKER_02: So uh that was born just because people kept tagging me in crime stuff, and then someone tagged me in a show, a guy on TikTok who was calling himself the TikTok fugitive, he was wanted by the FBI, and he was he was sort of just posting videos from um Barbados in the Caribbean, and I contacted him.
19:31
SPEAKER_02: Now, all of my podcasts seem to be born because I have a true fascination in people's lives and stories, and I love to sit and listen to people's stories.
19:38
SPEAKER_02: And I'll hear a really cool story and I'll be like, I want to interview you, and then I'll interview them and I'll go, hold on a second, I don't have a podcast for that.
19:44
SPEAKER_02: So then I'm like, well, I can't just have this interview sitting here doing nothing, I've got to do something with it.
19:49
SPEAKER_02: So then I build another show.
19:50
SPEAKER_02: Like, that's how What I Survived was created.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: That's how that was created.
19:54
SPEAKER_02: Because I uh I watched the guy's story about being shipwrecked for you know three months in the middle of the ocean in the Pacific Ocean with his family in the 1970s after you know three killer whales struck their boat and it sank.
20:07
SPEAKER_02: Um and I was watching, I was just listening to his story.
20:09
SPEAKER_02: I'm going, this is fascinating.
20:11
SPEAKER_02: And the way I build shows is a bit different, like it's not just me and a person talking for you know half an hour or whatever.
20:18
SPEAKER_02: I I sort of build, and it's it sounds a bit you know, wanky, but I I call them audio documentaries.
20:24
SPEAKER_02: So I put in music, sound effects, weather needed, narration, and interview, and sort of build this whole sort of and that comes from like that's my audio background from radio as well.
20:33
SPEAKER_02: There, like, you know, you know, always have something to support the audio.
20:37
SPEAKER_02: And I love music and I love finding the music and building that and make building tension and and all this sort of stuff.
20:43
SPEAKER_02: So I heard this story and I was him telling it.
20:46
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, there's so much more we could do with this story.
20:48
SPEAKER_02: Like there's this, this, this, the ocean, you know, the sounds of the waves and the striking of the boat.
20:53
SPEAKER_02: And I was like hearing this whole theater in my head, again, probably the ADHD kicking in.
20:57
SPEAKER_02: So I just contacted him.
20:58
SPEAKER_02: I was like, Oh, I'd love to interview you.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: And he's like, Okay.
21:00
SPEAKER_02: So I did the interview, and I'm like, Well, I don't have a podcast for this.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: So then I had to go, then I went searching for other people's stories of survival and and what I survived.
21:10
SPEAKER_02: And the funny thing was, I've I've had six interviews for that.
21:13
SPEAKER_02: Hell I held on to it for a year.
21:15
SPEAKER_02: I did nothing with it for a year.
21:16
SPEAKER_02: Because that's again ADHD brain, trying not trying to focus on one thing.
21:21
SPEAKER_02: So I had all these interviews and no no show, and I went back to my other shows because I'm like, well, I've got to keep these going.
21:26
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, well, I don't have time to build these, you know.
21:28
SPEAKER_02: I'd love to do something with them, but I don't have the time.
21:30
SPEAKER_02: And then last Christmas I got really ahead with one minute remaining, like I was two months ahead.
21:35
SPEAKER_02: Prime of bedtime, I got really ahead because my audio guy who helps me uh was going on holidays had to get ahead for him.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: So I then I was super ahead and I'm like, Well, I could now build this other show I was thinking about called Bonnet Survived.
21:48
SPEAKER_02: So I built that and then put that out and and yeah, luckily the the team in the at at Apple in the United States sort of found it because I didn't pitch it to them.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: I've I've pitched Apple podcasts like over The last four years so many times, and I've not got really didddly squat.
22:04
SPEAKER_02: They haven't responded to me at all.
22:06
SPEAKER_02: And then this one I didn't even pitch, and then all of a sudden I get an email one morning saying, Hey, congratulations, your show is being featured uh on the US front page of Apple, which is a really nice, exciting email to wake up to.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like what I survived has been the most successful launch of a show that I've done in the last four years.
22:24
SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's uh it's sort of what 50 days in and we're already at half a million downloads.
22:28
SPEAKER_02: And my biggest audience my biggest audience is the United States.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: And and funnily enough, I've spent my entire podcasting career to date telling mainly United States stories, like that's how it was all born.
22:39
SPEAKER_02: But a very minimal audience in the US.
22:41
SPEAKER_02: Whereas what I survived is actually, I don't think I've spoken to an American person for what I survived, yet that one's the one that sort of shot up the charts and became the sort of number one documentary podcast in a s in America um in the space of a week.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: So that was a um and and a lot of my a lot of my, you know, I say in air quotes success, and and it's annoying to say it for most people, but it's been a lot of luck.
23:04
SPEAKER_02: Um I mean, don't get me wrong, I I I work really hard.
23:08
SPEAKER_02: Like I get up every morning at four in the morning and I work all day long.
23:12
SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, and I I and I've sort of I ha I still hound people, you know.
23:16
SPEAKER_02: That's the other thing about doing a podcast.
23:17
SPEAKER_02: You are a one-stop shop for everything, you know, you've got to market it, you've got to, you know, it's everything, and and it's the and it is exhausting.
23:24
SPEAKER_02: And don't get me wrong, I'm not, you know, it's not exhausting in the sense of working on the tools or you know, doing a manual labor job, which a lot of people do have to do, but it is mentally exhausting, a lot long hours and whatnot.
23:35
SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of hard work in it, but there has been a hell of a lot of good luck as well.
23:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
23:40
SPEAKER_02: You know, had had Apple not promoted what I survived, it would be doing okay, I'm sure, because I've already built a nice audience who, you know, who support me now and are really great.
23:48
SPEAKER_02: They're fantastic.
23:49
SPEAKER_02: Everything I put out, they support.
23:51
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it certainly wouldn't be doing half a million downloads in in the space of you know less than two months if it wasn't for the Apple feature.
23:58
SPEAKER_02: So I'm very, very grateful for that.
23:59
SPEAKER_02: That was a real stroke of luck.
24:01
SPEAKER_02: But anyway, that verbal diarrhea that I've just given you is kind of my trajectory uh and career so far.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: So it's it's been an it's been an interesting nearly four years.
24:11
SPEAKER_02: But I mean, again, again, I still spend my days panicking that you know I don't have enough downloads.
24:16
SPEAKER_02: Like I I we I just really I released season two of What I Survived This Morning.
24:20
SPEAKER_02: I released it early because ACAR said to me, Oh, I think you should we you should probably release it early.
24:24
SPEAKER_02: So I okay.
24:25
SPEAKER_02: And I'll spend all day now just looking at the numbers, going, no, not really, not really where they should be.
24:31
SPEAKER_02: And it's the thing, I I set myself these, I set myself these targets, and then I'm very lucky to hit these targets, but then I'm like, okay, what's next?
24:38
SPEAKER_02: What's next?
24:38
SPEAKER_02: What's next?
24:39
SPEAKER_02: What's next?
24:39
SPEAKER_02: And my wife said, You're never going to be happy.
24:41
SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, probably not, because you know, just my my main goal was to hit 10,000 downloads a week, and then I hit obviously that 100,000 in the week, but then that's a peak, obviously, because everyone comes across to try it, and not everyone will stick around.
24:55
SPEAKER_02: And you know, those numbers start to slide.
24:57
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I look at one minute remaining now, one minute one minute remaining is actually one of the least uh sort of not successful because it's done very well, it's nearly at 10 million downloads.
25:08
SPEAKER_02: But I as a as a weekly figure, it's sort of actually towards the bottom now, whereas the other shows are at the top.
25:14
SPEAKER_02: So then, and that's still my baby.
25:16
SPEAKER_02: I still that's still my my joy and my love.
25:18
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I've made a lot of friends who are incarcerated who I don't believe should be incarcerated, and I'm trying to help those people.
25:24
SPEAKER_02: And you know, someone said to me the other day, like I explained, like, I watched an interview with someone who was in a Marvel movie, I can't remember um who it is, but they also do all these other sort of like boutique y type films, and they say I do the Marvel movies so I can keep doing the movies that I want to do.
25:39
SPEAKER_02: So for me, the Crime at Bedtime, Mysteries at Bedtime, that those are my Marvel.
25:44
SPEAKER_02: Uh and my one minute remaining is my passion and and what I survived as well, uh, although not as much as one minute remaining, because one minute remaining for me is that's where I hope to make my mark and and help people.
25:55
SPEAKER_02: You know, the show the show has seen the exoneration of a number of people from prison who shouldn't have been in prison.
26:00
SPEAKER_02: And to me, that is that's what I want my legacy to be, that show and and helping people.
26:04
SPEAKER_02: And the other shows are there to enable me to be able to do that, basically.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's cool.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: I it's it's cool to have that purpose behind that too, because that is probably driving why well, it is, it's driving why you want these others to be so successful because you've got a bigger why over here that you need these to funnel so you can you can obtain, you know, really what you're working on here, which is very cool because I just think I isn't it just cool how things can happen organically like this, you know.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: Like you you five years ago, if someone would have told you this is this is where you'd be, here's the laugh.
26:38
SPEAKER_02: You'd be like, Yeah, we have yeah.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: Me and my audio, I laugh all the time because I in the early days when I first started, because the goal was to hit 10,000 downloads a week so we could start, we just so we could turn the ads on so that we could get them started.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: Like I was told, like 10 hit 10,000 a week, we'll turn the ads on and you can start making an income.
26:55
SPEAKER_02: And I I've got uh you know, I we I had a phone call with my audio guy saying, mate, I just don't know how we're ever gonna hit this number.
27:03
SPEAKER_02: I just cannot see us ever hitting this number ever.
27:05
SPEAKER_02: You know, and fast forward forward three and a half years just last week.
27:08
SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, uh currently sitting at 206,000 downloads in the last week, you know, and and that to me is just like wild.
27:15
SPEAKER_02: Like I just don't understand that.
27:16
SPEAKER_02: And I'm so lucky to be in that position and to be, you know, and to have those numbers and be able to call this my job.
27:22
SPEAKER_02: Um, but as I said, like I I don't take the foot off the gas and go, okay, well, I can I can stop now.
27:27
SPEAKER_02: I'm this is I'm like, I've got to keep that going because at the end of the day, also this is what helps me pay the bills.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, if I'm not if I'm not making, you know, if I if that if that starts to to drop, yeah, then you know, I start to panic and go, well, you know.
27:41
SPEAKER_02: But that's the thing though.
27:42
SPEAKER_02: Now now that I'm doing 200,000 in in the last week, I'm like, okay, well, that's great, but what's next?
27:48
SPEAKER_02: You know, I've got to find you're always fighting to find new audience, you know, with podcasting, as you, as you know, like the biggest and hardest thing to do is find audience.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:58
SPEAKER_02: And you can find audience, but then obviously that audience is fickle and they listen and they might binge.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: That's the other thing.
28:04
SPEAKER_02: I get people who find one minute remaining, which has got nearly 400 episodes, and they'll binge it and smash the whole thing, but then obviously it finishes, and they're like, Oh, okay, well, I've got to wait week to week now.
28:14
SPEAKER_02: Well, I'll go and find something else, and then they'll disappear.
28:16
SPEAKER_02: And so your numbers then obviously there's a lot of people, and that they start to dip.
28:19
SPEAKER_02: So then you've got to find new audience who'll come in and binge what you've done.
28:22
SPEAKER_02: It's just this never-ending cycle of having to find more non-stop.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: Well, you can look at it as most most jobs, there's there's a what's next.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: There is no like finite ending to anything you do.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: What's cool is you're doing something you love to do, then hopefully you can continue to chip away and do it, do it for a long time.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: But you're right.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: It is funny you say that.
28:43
SPEAKER_01: There, there's I get asked all the time, like, how do you find how do you find your guests?
28:46
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, that's actually not the hard part at all.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: Right.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: You reach out to people, and most people are like, Yeah, I would love to come on and talk.
28:53
SPEAKER_02: I mean, people I very rarely I've got a I've got a no.
28:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:56
SPEAKER_02: Like, I mean, very rarely.
28:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, what I survived.
28:59
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'll just I I literally I've I mean I find those guests I've I I steal them from other podcasts.
29:05
SPEAKER_02: It's so easy to find them.
29:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:07
SPEAKER_02: And you just reach out and everyone like because uh um ultimately people love to talk about themselves, I think mostly.
29:12
SPEAKER_02: I think most people are quite happy to to talk about themselves, especially if they've got a really interesting story to tell.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: Yep.
29:17
SPEAKER_02: Some people get sick of it and don't want to tell the story anymore.
29:20
SPEAKER_02: Like I've had, you know, maybe the odd person just go, oh, look, you know, I'm a bit exhausted from that.
29:24
SPEAKER_02: But but that's also why I try and go from another angle.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: So what I survived, obviously, it's not not a new concept.
29:29
SPEAKER_02: It's not like, you know, and none of my none of my shows are really new concepts.
29:32
SPEAKER_02: Like one minute remaining is, I suppose, a little bit different.
29:35
SPEAKER_02: But you had serial that told the story of Adnan Said, and he told his story from prison.
29:40
SPEAKER_02: So it's not like I'm coming up with unique ideas.
29:42
SPEAKER_02: I try and just put a bit of a spin on them.
29:44
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, telling stories for people to sleep at night, even crime stories for bedtime is not a new concept, but I just changed it slightly by because I listened to those shows.
29:54
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, okay, I I see what they're doing.
29:56
SPEAKER_02: All I did was add in a a one-minute sort of breathing exercise prior to the story to help people sort of I I sort of did a beast bit of research.
30:07
SPEAKER_02: It's actually, I think it's like an uh an American army technique or something that I found that soldiers use in the battlefield because they just obviously can't shut their brains off or the adrenaline and whatnot.
30:18
SPEAKER_02: And so I found this technique and I was like, okay, we'll do that.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: So I'll tell a little bit of the story to sort of hook people in, then we'll do this breathing exercise and then we'll jump into it.
30:26
SPEAKER_02: You know, something and what I survived, I try and focus a little bit more on the after, like, you know, how people come back from these stories.
30:32
SPEAKER_02: So we obviously still tell that story and the bit that everyone wants to hear, the exciting bit.
30:37
SPEAKER_02: But then we also, because there's so then when I'm approaching someone and saying, look, I want you to tell your story again, but I really want to focus on how you came back from it.
30:45
SPEAKER_02: We'll talk about PTSD and you know, talking to psychiatrists and and how they came back to their life after all of that happened.
30:53
SPEAKER_02: And a lot of people, when I've reached out to them, said I was actually going to say no to you, but I really like the focus that you're you're dealing with and going with the after because people don't want to hear about that usually.
31:03
SPEAKER_02: They just want the cool story of, you know, how I nearly died.
31:06
SPEAKER_02: And then we say, Well, thanks very much.
31:08
SPEAKER_02: Here's my book, you know, bye-bye.
31:10
SPEAKER_02: Whereas I'm like, well, no.
31:12
SPEAKER_02: And I also want to hear the beginning as well.
31:13
SPEAKER_02: Like I we I want to hear the whole story.
31:15
SPEAKER_02: We talk about where they were born, you know, which at the end of the day creates for me a nightmare with editing.
31:20
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, I like to hear people's stories.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: And that's the same with the the one minute remaining.
31:24
SPEAKER_02: I think why that's been quite successful is because I don't just go, you know, tell me about this gruesome murder.
31:29
SPEAKER_02: I want to hear, you know, the full details.
31:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, well, no, tell me about your life.
31:33
SPEAKER_02: How the hell did you even get to this point?
31:35
SPEAKER_02: How did you end up here?
31:36
SPEAKER_02: So we talk about their childhood and all that sort of stuff, and then we get to the the crime bit, the bit that everyone's kind of fascinated with.
31:42
SPEAKER_02: And then we talk about the case against them and and that sort of stuff.
31:45
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's just finding, I think, those differences.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
31:50
SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's, you know, because I'm not I'm not reinventing the wheel.
31:53
SPEAKER_02: I'm just trying to add something shiny onto it.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
31:56
SPEAKER_01: No, and like then that's a good thing, though.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: We're talking about, you know, trying to to find your audience.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: It's it's the the guest and the stories are there, which is a good thing.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh it hopefully they're just they're they're new enough where you know people haven't heard them.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, man, we're fascinated with with crime and and the jail system and I and all of that.
32:16
SPEAKER_01: So I mean, uh I that's the I got into podcasts because I listened to uh Up and Vanished from Payne Lindsey.
32:23
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, that was the first one I got introduced to, and then now I'm like hooked on them, and then yours is one I've I've downloaded now and subscribed to, so that'll be another one I follow.
32:31
SPEAKER_02: And so I think I don't get a chance to listen to podcasts anymore.
32:34
SPEAKER_02: I used to sort of, you know, because I I don't I work from home now, uh, so I don't drive anywhere, but I used to or commute.
32:40
SPEAKER_02: But obviously commuting to work, I was listening to so many, like so many incredible podcasts.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: And that's when it came to me making my podcasts, I just made podcasts that I would like to listen to.
32:50
SPEAKER_02: So shows that I've heard and I go, wow, this soundscape, it's amazing.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: You know, I love this bit and this bit.
32:55
SPEAKER_02: And I've kind of just picked bits from the shows that I've really enjoyed and created podcasts based on that.
33:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I used to consume so many podcasts, and now I actually I've tried and I just can't seem to well it's I would assume it's extremely hard for you because number one, you've got multiple that you're editing and scheduling and trying to keep up with.
33:17
SPEAKER_01: It's hard for me, and I just have one.
33:18
SPEAKER_01: But I do I'm pretty intentional about it to make myself listen to some of the ones I follow.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: There's like some entrepreneur business ones I like, just because it keeps my juices flowing of, oh, that's a good idea, like I should try that, or you know, it just keeps the entrepreneurial spirit of this, what I'm building up.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's a little bit motivating.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: And then there's a couple others that I listen to just for entertainment.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: So, like yours um and some others that I like if I'm on the treadmill or if I'm walking, I try to catch up on.
33:46
SPEAKER_01: But you're right, I used to listen to so many when I commuted to work, and now those kind of get pushed to when I'm on like a long vacation drive, or I'm like, yes, I get to catch up on you know these podcasts because I got nine hours, and that's really when I get the chance to do it.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: But when you're working on your own, we talked a lot about this.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: People don't realize, I don't think, how long it takes to edit and put these together and structure them to where they sound and flow correctly, and then you've got to get them all posted and then marketed, and then you're answering emails, and they're like you said, you're a one-stop shop, and I'm sure it's 10, 100,000 X what I experience, but I'm like you.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: I get up at 4:35, I work before my regular job, and then at night I'm editing and trying to do right by everyone I have on as a guest, too, because I want their episodes to come out within a good time frame, they're looking forward to it, and so there is so much work, and I have a whole new appreciation for it, which is again why I wanted to talk with you, just because of what you're accomplishing.
34:44
SPEAKER_01: It's not easy, and uh, I don't want people to think it is just because they see your your podcast on the top of the charts.
34:52
SPEAKER_01: There's a whole engine of work behind it to get it there, and so I just I want I wanted you to share that in your story because I think it's important for people to know that.
35:02
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, look, I mean it it is it is a lot of work, and I but I wouldn't be doing anything else.
35:07
SPEAKER_02: And I have days where I'm just like, I I how am I gonna keep doing this?
35:10
SPEAKER_02: And then I just think, well, what's the alternative?
35:12
SPEAKER_02: Like, you want to go back to working for a you know a big organization that couldn't care less about you, and you know, if you as I watched a video the other day, it's like never forget that if you die tomorrow, your job will be advertised the following day.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, maybe sooner.
35:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
35:27
SPEAKER_02: And it's and it's so true.
35:28
SPEAKER_02: It's just and uh you know, I my um my old man, he um he owned his own businesses for for basically most of his, I think all of his life he went for one person.
35:37
SPEAKER_02: He always used to say to me, You'll you'll never you'll never truly make it, mate, until you work for yourself.
35:42
SPEAKER_02: And I was always like, Yeah, whatever.
35:43
SPEAKER_02: You know, I like the security of having a a wage every week and know it's gonna be there.
35:46
SPEAKER_02: But then I got made redundant, you know, during my career and just like that, you know, it was gone.
35:51
SPEAKER_02: And they said, sorry, but thanks very much for your time, see you later.
35:54
SPEAKER_02: And and sort of that made me sort of got me thinking, it's like, wow, I'm I'm really just expendable.
35:58
SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's just nice now that I I I'm so privileged now to be able to work for myself and because simple things like you know, my kids, they're only they're still young, they're they're five and seven, and you know, my daughter is always doing something at school and says, I've got this coming up, and I don't have to ask anyone for permission, you know, I don't have to say, Oh boss, can I my daughter's got this thing on, you know, and then be made feel to feel guilty because I'm not at work, you know.
36:22
SPEAKER_02: I used to get that all the time, you know, you sort of be sick, and I I never took sick days when I worked.
36:26
SPEAKER_02: Like I worked, you know, I was just not one person.
36:28
SPEAKER_02: Or even to go to a doctor's appointment, a dentist feel like wrong for Twitter, awful.
36:34
SPEAKER_02: And then I'd like to have a sick day, and I really would be sick, but then I'd be at home feeling guilty that I'm not at work because other people are having to find someone to fill in, you know, because I worked on the radio.
36:42
SPEAKER_02: So if I'm not on, they need to find someone to go on the radio.
36:44
SPEAKER_02: And yeah, and I just but I don't have that anymore.
36:47
SPEAKER_02: You know, I don't have I I I f I still feel guilty if I'm not working because it's then I'm like, oh, well, I need to get this episode out or I need to do this interview and blah, blah, blah.
36:54
SPEAKER_02: But, you know, I still I just the fact of not having to ask for permission for me that these days is a nice little thing.
37:00
SPEAKER_02: I I like to, you know, yeah, not feel because I and then if something goes wrong as well in the radio, I used to you used to feel like a child when you were sort of berated by someone because something went wrong on the radio and you were looked at, you know, you felt this big and you're just like, and now if something goes wrong, uh yes, I'm annoyed, but it's whatever, it's not the end of the world.
37:19
SPEAKER_02: Like you know, I'm my attention to the detail, it's not great.
37:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:23
SPEAKER_02: Um, like I I big I'm big picture, not little picture, um, which is why it drives my wife nuts because I've got currently um 46 messages that I haven't read, 20 missed calls, 20 uh and 81 emails, gone like 12, 1200 WhatsApp messages.
37:40
unknown: Yeah.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: And when you're when you're like locked in though, it it's hard to keep up with stuff, you know?
37:46
SPEAKER_01: It it really is.
37:47
SPEAKER_01: I I'm the same way.
37:48
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm very organized.
37:50
SPEAKER_01: I love things a certain way.
37:52
SPEAKER_01: But when you get locked in and you're trying to get stuff done, like it's easy to forget to text back or to answer an email.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: It's very I have to structure that on my calendar too, like, hey, answer these and improve them to the next day.
38:06
SPEAKER_02: I just hope one day I get to the point where I'm earning enough money where I can hire someone to do, you know, because I'm certainly not the point where I'm sort of hiring people, you know, but I you know I look forward to the day where I can hire someone to say, look, hey, can you just go through my emails, please?
38:19
SPEAKER_02: I can't, my head just can't handle that.
38:21
SPEAKER_02: Just just go through and get rid of the stuff.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: I'm not there yet.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: That maybe that will be because I always wonder myself, like, at what point will I consider myself quote unquote successful?
38:29
SPEAKER_02: I mean, what does success look like?
38:30
SPEAKER_02: I was asked that once on a business podcast, what does success look like to you?
38:33
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I don't, I don't know.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: I have no idea.
38:36
SPEAKER_02: And maybe that's success to me, having someone to check my emails for me.
38:39
SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's what success look like.
38:41
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
38:41
SPEAKER_01: It would be nice.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm the same way.
38:42
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, man, it would be so nice if someone could help me do all this stuff that I'm not the best at.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: But in a in a certain way too, I I appreciate the learning aspect of it.
38:52
SPEAKER_01: Just just being able to do things you never thought were possible, you never saw yourself doing.
38:56
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure that you have tons of that, you know, learning along the way and just hiccups.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: And but it it makes you such a better for for your craft, podcaster and storyteller and editor and the stuff you're putting out there.
39:08
SPEAKER_01: If you don't know how to do it and you're just sending it to someone else, you know, and a virtual assistant or hiring somebody, you just don't I don't know if you'll have the would have the appreciation for for what you're building and and all of that.
39:20
SPEAKER_01: So I think that's just a part of the process, it's part of the journey that that you get to look back on and say, like, yeah, I worked really hard to do that and look, look at this, look what's coming from it.
39:29
SPEAKER_01: It's just a really cool thing to experience and a good feeling, I think.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: But no, Jack, man, this has been so cool, man.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: I've been I've been looking forward to just talking with you about this and and better understanding your journey and your story because seeing it from afar, obviously, like I know what the time it's taken just from my own experiences, but to hear you talk about just the journey of radio and just your life, and then now having these podcasts that are getting hundreds and thousands of downloads.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: It's just dude, for someone like me, I just love hearing those stories.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: I and for someone to just say, like, hey man, I'm just I'm just doing my best, and here's what's coming from it.
40:04
SPEAKER_01: And I think people need to know that.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: Like, hey, just chip away every day, keep working at it.
40:09
SPEAKER_01: Who knows where it can lead?
40:10
SPEAKER_01: It can lead to unimaginable places.
40:13
SPEAKER_00: Just just keep just chip away at it.
40:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I say to people all the time when they say, like, how do I do it?
40:18
SPEAKER_02: I'm like, honestly, and I and again, this is I know this is annoying to say because everyone says it, but if I can do it, you you know, anyone can do it.
40:25
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not special, you know, I'm not not again reinventing the wheel.
40:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, it's just you put in the work.
40:32
SPEAKER_02: I've got this thing stuck up on my wall in front of me.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: It's a picture of two people sort of chipping away uh through a mining thing, uh, and one guy's given up, like, and he's sort of minuscule close to to hitting all these diamonds, yeah, and he's just given up and walked away, whereas the other guy is not stopping.
40:48
SPEAKER_02: Uh and that's a real great visual for me.
40:50
SPEAKER_02: It's just like the only time you fail is when you decide, when you quit.
40:54
SPEAKER_02: And I spent my life quitting a lot of things.
40:56
SPEAKER_02: Like, don't get me wrong, this it's not like I'm some sort of like, you know, a success junkie.
41:00
SPEAKER_02: Like I I I you asked my wife, I've started so many different things and quit along the way because I'm like, uh, no.
41:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, and and this one is just one where I've gone and I gave myself that whole ultimatum of like quitting my job.
41:14
SPEAKER_02: I think that was the catalyst for me was like making sure there was no plan B, because I think we spend our lives, you know, being told, hey, always have a backup plan.
41:24
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, I know when I was growing up, my mum was like, you need to learn a trade, so you've got a backup plan, you know, always have a backup plan.
41:29
SPEAKER_02: And if I was talking about leaving a job, mum was like, you know, never leave a job until you've got one to go to.
41:33
SPEAKER_02: And you know, always this backup plan, backup plan, backup plan.
41:36
SPEAKER_02: And I think that can be this, yes, that's that's sensible, but also I think it can be a crutch and it can make it easier to quit things because you go, Oh, well, it's all right, I've still got this, I'll just fall back onto this.
41:46
SPEAKER_02: You know, when I was working in radio and I'm gonna uh do a dirty name drop here, but I was interviewing Ed Sheeran, the uh musician.
41:54
SPEAKER_02: Uh you may have heard of him.
41:55
SPEAKER_02: Um and I said to him, I I said to him, I was like, what was your plan B if if music didn't work out?
42:00
SPEAKER_02: And he went, There was never a plan B.
42:01
SPEAKER_02: He said, like, you know, there's uh seven, eight billion people in the world.
42:05
SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, I I knew that, you know, hopefully some of them would enjoy my music.
42:10
SPEAKER_02: He said, somehow I was going to make money from music, whether it was just playing in bars for the rest of my life or doing what I'm doing now.
42:16
SPEAKER_02: Um, but there was never a plan B.
42:18
SPEAKER_02: And so when I quit my job and there was no plan B, because for me, the idea of going back to radio was just not an option.
42:25
SPEAKER_02: Because for me that would be failure and also embarrassing, you know, to sort of, you know, make this exit from radio and then come sort of crawling back, as it were, with my tail between my legs, going, Oh, well, it didn't work out.
42:36
SPEAKER_02: I'm back now.
42:37
SPEAKER_02: And for me, that was not an option.
42:38
SPEAKER_02: So I gave myself uh there was no plan B.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: This had to work.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: And for it to, for it to work, I had to work my ass off.
42:45
SPEAKER_02: Um, excuse my language.
42:47
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I and that's that's what I did, and that's what I continue to do every single day because I'm terrified of the ultimatum of actually having to go back and and go to work.
42:54
SPEAKER_02: So I will keep releasing more and more podcasts until either I put myself in an early grave or I can somehow, you know, make enough money to to not have to worry.
43:03
SPEAKER_02: But it's certainly not at that point yet.
43:05
SPEAKER_02: Don't worry about that.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: No, I love it, man.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: You had you had three months to get it done and and you did it, and you are doing it.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: So, man, Jack, this means more than you know, man.
43:15
SPEAKER_01: Thank you for taking the time to come on here.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: And we'll certainly share your podcast links with with our audience.
43:21
SPEAKER_01: So for those who haven't found it yet, we'll try to contribute to your numbers so you can get those as high as possible.
43:28
SPEAKER_01: And uh, but no, man, you've got our support and and thank you again for taking the time to do this.
43:33
SPEAKER_01: This was a really cool conversation.
43:35
SPEAKER_02: No, not at all.
43:36
SPEAKER_02: Honestly, thank you very much indeed for having me.
43:37
SPEAKER_02: It's always uh, you know, it's I've always feel very chuffed when people ask me to come in and talk.
43:41
SPEAKER_02: It's uh it's a it's a a privilege and a pleasure, that's for sure.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Jack.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: Legend.