Latest / Talking Michigan Transportation / Reprise: After a pandemic spike in crashes, 2025 stats show positive trends

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Reprise: After a pandemic spike in crashes, 2025 stats show positive trends · Talking Michigan Transportation

• 0:06
  Jeff Cranson: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
• 0:10
  Jeff Cranson: I'm Jeff Cranson.
• 0:11
  Jeff Cranson: Annual numbers are out from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, or NHTSA, and the rate of fatal crashes on our nation's roads continued to trend in the right direction in 2025.
• 0:26
  Jeff Cranson: That was true in Michigan as well.
• 0:29
  Jeff Cranson: You recall that the number of fatal crashes spiked in 2020 and 2021 during the earliest months of the pandemic as law enforcement agencies observed people driving at much higher speeds, and many even abandoning their seatbelts.
• 0:44
  Jeff Cranson: Next week I'll talk with some Michigan officials about those trends and what it means.
• 0:49
  Jeff Cranson: But this week I'm reprising an episode from 2021 when experts from Michigan State University and the Washington, D.C.
• 0:57
  Jeff Cranson: based Governor's Highway Safety Administration talked about the disturbing trends then.
• 1:02
  Jeff Cranson: We're focusing again on the disturbing trend that began with the first pandemic lockdowns in spring of 2020 and continued into 2021.
• 1:11
  Jeff Cranson: Fewer vehicles on the road, more people dying in crashes.
• 1:15
  Jeff Cranson: We've talked about this before, and some news outlets have touched on the topic, but we have only theories about the reasons.
• 1:21
  Jeff Cranson: We don't know the whys.
• 1:23
  Jeff Cranson: We'd also heard anecdotally from our colleagues with the Michigan State Police that seatbelt use tapered off during the pandemic.
• 1:29
  Jeff Cranson: And now we have statistics for 2020 that underscore that.
• 1:33
  Jeff Cranson: So our conversation begins this week with Dr.
• 1:36
  Jeff Cranson: Peter Savolainen, who is a Michigan State University Foundation Professor of Civil and Environmental Engineering.
• 1:42
  Jeff Cranson: And later we'll be talking with Jonathan Atkins of the Governor's Highway Safety Association in Washington, D.C.
• 1:48
  Jeff Cranson: And he'll offer a national perspective.
• 1:50
  Jeff Cranson: So once again, as promised, I'm with Dr.
• 1:53
  Jeff Cranson: Peter Savolainen from Michigan State University.
• 1:56
  Jeff Cranson: He is the foundation professor of civil and environmental engineering.
• 2:00
  Jeff Cranson: And his research examines the fundamental nature of road user behavior and how traffic safety and operations are influenced by behavior in consideration of roadway and traffic characteristics.
• 2:12
  Jeff Cranson: So I think his perspective is especially important as we try to find out what's been going on really since the pandemic first took hold in the spring of 2020, and we saw uh a big reduction in vehicles on the road early on, and yet we saw a spike in crash deaths.
• 2:31
  Jeff Cranson: Um we talked about this before.
• 2:33
  Jeff Cranson: Do you do you have any particular theories on this?
• 2:37
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Yeah, thanks, Jeff.
• 2:38
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so I guess from a big picture perspective, when we examine how frequently traffic crashes occur, uh generally speaking, the number of crashes is a function of how much people are driving.
• 2:50
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so I think at the onset of the pandemic, we had speculated that crashes and injuries and fatalities resulting from those crashes would decline.
• 2:59
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Now we did tend to see some declines in overall crashes, which were somewhat in line with the reduction in travel, but we actually saw increases in the most severe, particularly fatal crashes.
• 3:11
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so that was really interesting.
• 3:13
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And I think part of that, there's a few different factors that are potentially at play here.
• 3:18
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: One of those that has been widely speculated on, and there's there's research now that's starting to catch up to try to support that, is that speeds are higher due to the fact that there are fewer vehicles on the road.
• 3:30
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so when crashes do occur, the results tend to be more severe, just given the underlying physics that are involved.
• 3:36
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so I think that's generally supported when we look at the available data.
• 3:41
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Now, interestingly, we're currently doing an evaluation of changes in travel speeds that have occurred since the speed limit increases went into effect back in 2017.
• 3:51
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And when we look at those data, and so this would be vehicles that are free to travel as fast as they would like under uncongested conditions, there really isn't much of any change between 2018, 2019, and 2020, generally speaking.
• 4:06
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: But when we get into the slightly more congested areas and we get into more urban environments as an example, I think that's where we're going to start to see some of the bigger differences.
• 4:17
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So, particularly these higher speeds, as you get into conditions that were, you know, somewhat congested, but not as congested as they were previously.
• 4:25
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: I think that's definitely something that's playing a role here.
• 4:28
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Now, beyond that, and this is where it becomes somewhat more difficult for us to measure, is that the driving population was probably quite a bit different, uh, particularly during the early stages of the pandemic than we would see in normal pre-pandemic years.
• 4:43
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so, to that end, as an example, the people that would tend to travel most frequently would be those who were working in essential jobs or were conducting trips to establishments for some of those essential purposes, um, like grocery stores, uh, you know, medical trips, things of that nature.
• 5:03
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Um, but if you look at that broad cross-section, it definitely is different in various respects from you know normal conditions.
• 5:11
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And I think that the subset we're particularly interested in in there would be the highest risk drivers.
• 5:17
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And by highest risk, we're thinking about things like those who tend to drive excessively fast, those who tend to drink and drive, those who drive unbelted and engage in other types of unsafe behaviors.
• 5:30
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Now, I would suspect that those same individuals would also be less likely to maintain social distancing and stay-at-home orders as an example.
• 5:41
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so I think you probably, if you were to examine it in great detail, would see a higher risk subset of drivers in general, uh, which is probably also playing a role.
• 5:51
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: But it's a bit more challenging for us to get detailed data there because the information we have on how many vehicles are used in the roadway is obtained from sensors, and we really don't have a good sense as to the constituency of that driving population ultimately.
• 6:05
  Jeff Cranson: But you do, right?
• 6:07
  Jeff Cranson: For that age and gender, I guess, demographic for the high-risk drivers that you're talking about.
• 6:13
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, even pre-pandemic, right?
• 6:16
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Yeah, certainly.
• 6:17
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So there are there are ways we can we can get into some of those subsets.
• 6:21
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And when we look at some of the information that's recorded on the police crash report and things of that nature, um, I think we'll be able to start to dig into some of these issues in much greater detail.
• 6:31
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so to that end, uh, just recently we now have access to complete crash data from calendar year 2020.
• 6:39
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So among the other delays that were introduced by the pandemic, it took a little bit of time to get all of the crash data processed.
• 6:46
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so we're in the early stages of comparing 2020 profiles to some of the preceding years.
• 6:53
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And I'm expecting we'll see some very interesting results there.
• 6:56
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Now, unfortunately, like I said, we just received access to those data, and so it'll probably be at least a little while until we start to see some rigorous analyses there.
• 7:05
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Um, but I think just at a very high level, if you look at some of the general trends, you know, there are things like seatbelt use is the lowest that it's been among crash-involved occupants in several years now.
• 7:16
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so that gets back to my preceding point about just you know the nature of the people who were driving more or less frequently during the pandemic.
• 7:26
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so there's been other research that's shown you know somewhat disproportionate impacts in terms of crashes, injuries, and fatalities among certain subsets of the driving population.
• 7:39
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so in in urban areas, uh particularly areas that have uh lower income and other socioeconomic differences, you know, that's been an area where there have been some upward trends that are more pronounced uh than otherwise.
• 7:55
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And if you look just generally in terms of how the nature of travel changed over the course of the pandemic, you know, uh, you know, looking at urban versus rural, looking at other nuances, you know, things I'll try not to get political, but if we look at states that have different forms of, you know, stay-at-home orders and travel restrictions, uh, we definitely saw differences in terms of the impacts of those government orders on travel.
• 8:24
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And then from that, I suspect we'll also see some differences in terms of the crash trends across those states.
• 8:30
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And I would be curious to see what lessons we learned from that, because certainly um over time, I think, regardless of where we look geographically, people just there there was so much that that people could take generally.
• 8:45
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And then we started reverting back to our travel behavior.
• 8:47
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And that was true even, you know, three to six months into the pandemic.
• 8:52
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so I think as we look, as we look at trends over the course of the pandemic, I think we'll see much different trends, say, over the first three months to the next three months, or you know, running that all the way through present day.
• 9:04
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Sorry, I cut you off there, Jeff.
• 9:06
  Jeff Cranson: No, that's fine.
• 9:06
  Jeff Cranson: That that will be interesting when we can we can see it, you know, sliced up that way.
• 9:10
  Jeff Cranson: But I think since you touched on seatbelts, that's one of the things I wanted to talk about.
• 9:14
  Jeff Cranson: And we were off, I think, seven or eight percent in terms of the fatal crashes where people were wearing seatbelts between the previous year and and 2020.
• 9:24
  Jeff Cranson: I understand that you don't want this to become a political discussion, but what is your theory as to why that would be?
• 9:31
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So uh again, I think at a high level, my first guess would be simply we're looking at different subsets of drivers who are constituting a larger share of the total travel.
• 9:44
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so I think the people that traveled the least during the pandemic were likely those people who generally tended to be most risk averse.
• 9:53
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Um, you know, so they would tend to drive more cautiously as compared to our quote unquote average driver.
• 10:00
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And then in contrast, the people that would tend to exhibit, you know, lesser degrees um of concern from a risk standpoint might not have changed their travel behavior much, if at all.
• 10:12
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so I think that will help to explain um some of that, I suspect.
• 10:17
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Um but, you know, really, like I said, it's it's difficult until we really get into the data to truly understand what's happening there.
• 10:26
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: But that would be my guess based upon a number of other studies that have been conducted over time that tend to consistently show that the people who tend to drive unbelted will engage in some of these other unsafe behaviors as well.
• 10:40
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so, you know, by and large, for a crash to occur, it's not just one circumstance, it's a combination of circumstances that lead to that crash occurring.
• 10:49
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so, you know, between the lower traffic volumes, the higher speeds, and then potentially a less risk-averse subset of drivers, I think it's really the combination of all those different factors that have led to some of the trends that we've seen in 2020.
• 11:04
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And unfortunately, it looks like we're tracking in the same general direction in 2021.
• 11:09
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So even as travel levels are continuing to rebound, I think we're still seeing some elevated risks for serious and fatal injuries based on the preliminary 2021 data I've seen at this point.
• 11:20
  Jeff Cranson: Well, it's anecdotal, obviously, but uh I don't know what you're seeing on the roads.
• 11:24
  Jeff Cranson: But uh I I feel like I'm seeing on the freeways, especially um higher speeds than there were pre-pandemic, you know, even now as traffic volumes return to what they were.
• 11:35
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Yeah, I guess that's that's probably true.
• 11:38
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: If we look at Michigan as compared to other states, I think we we tend to see you know higher speeds relatively speaking, and that's a function of of a wide variety of different factors, I think.
• 11:50
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: But like I said, we've we've at least looked at some of the data where those speed limit increases have occurred, and we haven't seen as large of an increase there.
• 11:59
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Um now that the area that's missed as a part of those studies are some of the denser urban areas, which is where I suspect those speeds would have gone upwards by a greater amount, um, simply because that's where we'd probably see the largest reductions in travel.
• 12:17
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And as a consequence, you'd see higher than typical speeds, um, particularly if you're looking at you know the larger metropolitan areas, um, you know, around Detroit, Grand Rapids, some of the other larger cities where you do have some freeways that are 55 or even 70 miles per hour where speeds tended to be lower due to congestion.
• 12:36
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And when that congestion was removed, I think speeds went up.
• 12:40
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And then, I mean, again, we're largely speculating here, but it's possible that just some of those higher speeds were then retained moving forward, um, even if as traffic starts to return closer to its normal levels.
• 12:52
  Jeff Cranson: I think that's probably true.
• 12:54
  Jeff Cranson: Um, you probably saw yesterday also that the Washington Post had a story about a study showing that that you know, black residents were more likely to die in crashes during that period.
• 13:06
  Jeff Cranson: And I think that fits with the other things that you've said about the urban areas and the people who probably needed to be on the road during the pandemic.
• 13:14
  Jeff Cranson: But I mean, should this be an all-hands-on-deck warning to all the various traffic safety advocacy agencies that are out there about education and and what they should be doing to talk about, you know, speeds and seat belts and all these things?
• 13:29
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, it just seems like this is crying out for some attention.
• 13:32
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Yeah, and I think to that point, Jeff, there has been, you know, a huge amount of discussion nationally um in terms of trying to understand the nature of these increases.
• 13:44
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And again, uh everybody keeps talking about speed, and I think that that certainly plays a part in it.
• 13:50
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Um, but in addition to that, I think some of the other high-risk behaviors, to my preceding point, like we've done regular studies on seatbelt use as well as distracted driving and cell phone use.
• 14:04
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so those areas um, you know, they've they've somewhat tapered off, I think.
• 14:10
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so, for example, we already talked about how seat belt rates had gone down.
• 14:15
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Um, cell phone use rates um are have remained relatively stable, and we might have even seen some some increases in some areas there as well.
• 14:23
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So I think a lot of it, people are are driving or behaving as as they would normally, but they're at a, I guess, have been somewhat less uh risk averse, I guess, to that same point.
• 14:34
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so as we talk about some of those communities that have been particularly affected, again, I think some of that is due to this just differences in terms of who has had to travel as a consequence.
• 14:47
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So some of those groups that were cited, I know the study that you're referring to specifically has shown that there's some African American populations that have seen a disproportionate share of the increase in fatalities.
• 14:58
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Um, Native Americans um and some other areas have also been affected for some different reasons there.
• 15:07
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And again, a lot of that I think just relates to um the reasons why people travel.
• 15:13
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And then there's a whole lot of information that's kind of correlated, you know, with some of those regional factors and the socioeconomic conditions.
• 15:22
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So it's you know, it's it's tough to say that it's any one thing specifically.
• 15:28
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And now as we look at solutions, I know nationally there's been a lot of talk about these same issues, but it's it's really been we've been talking about these same issues for for years now.
• 15:37
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: You know, it's it's speeds, it's alcohol use, it's distracted driving.
• 15:43
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And all of these are just underlying problems with driver behavior that have been increasingly difficult to try to address.
• 15:52
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And I think you know, that's true in the US and then also nationally and internationally as well.
• 15:58
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Um, there's certain groups of drivers that have just been hard to reach, and the safety message hasn't really resonated with those communities per se.
• 16:06
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so I think that's one of the really big challenges because there's, you know, there's some things we can do from an engineering perspective in trying to make the roadway environment safer, trying to minimize the potential for crashes.
• 16:19
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Uh, but ultimately, you know, nearly all of these crashes are occurring for one reason or another, due to due to some type of error on the part of the drivers.
• 16:27
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so those errors, you know, become more problematic at higher speed and when drivers are distracted.
• 16:34
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so um, if you've got an idea for that golden bullet or that silver bullet that will help to address these issues, I'd very much appreciate that.
• 16:42
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: But it's really this small subset of drivers, I think, that are disproportionately represented, particularly in the fatal crashes, that we've really been trying to hit with some of these behaviorally focused campaigns, enforcement campaigns, et cetera, over the past, you know, decades now at this point.
• 16:59
  Jeff Cranson: Well, it's not a silver bullet, but I think it a very good start is framing these as crashes, which you obviously are, um, and putting the focus on driver behavior and drivers making mistakes because that's clearly what this is all about.
• 17:13
  Jeff Cranson: They're not accidents, they're not things that just happen.
• 17:16
  Jeff Cranson: So talk a little bit because you mentioned distracted driving, and you know, we have to believe that hands-free use of cell phones has gone up as more and more cars are equipped with that and the technology becomes more readily available.
• 17:29
  Jeff Cranson: Do you have any any research or do you anything that has helped you draw conclusions about whether or not you are less distracted if you're using a hands-free device, if you're using Bluetooth through your car as opposed to holding on to the phone?
• 17:45
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So if we look generally at the research on driver behavior, there's three types or classes of distractions that are of particular concern to us.
• 17:55
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So one of those would be a manual distraction.
• 17:58
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So something that requires you to take your hands off of the steering wheel, and that could be using a handheld cell phone or tuning your car stereo or whatever the case may be.
• 18:08
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Um, secondly, the visual distraction.
• 18:10
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So anything that's requiring you to take your attention off of the driving environment.
• 18:15
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And that would be you know looking at objects inside or outside of the vehicle, but not directly in front of you in the roadway.
• 18:22
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And then thirdly, and uh of a particular concern across the board, is any type of cognitive distraction.
• 18:28
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So if you're thinking about anything other than the driving task, that's also taking your attention away.
• 18:33
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so as we look at hands-free versus hands-handheld cell phone use, you know, we do potentially do away with the manual distraction there to a degree.
• 18:43
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Now, you may have to push a button in order to accept or dial the call in some of these instances, but you're at least still keeping your eyes on the road, but that cognitive distraction is still present.
• 18:55
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so if you look at the literature, we might see some uh one of a lesser risk in hands-free versus handheld cell phone use, but it's certainly not as if your driving is normal there because you're not paying your full attention towards the primary driving task.
• 19:11
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And I think if you look at the general statistics, um comparing states that have different levels of restrictions on phone use, um, we hadn't seen quite the decline we would hope when you look at bans on handheld phone use.
• 19:26
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: So I think hands-free is probably better, but it's s certainly not equivalent to not being distracted by the by the cell phone.
• 19:35
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And more broadly than that, we've got some ongoing research that's looked at other types of distractions and just simple things like talking to a passenger in your vehicle are things that we do regularly, you know, similar in many respects to talking on the cell phone, that that also takes attention away from the driving task.
• 19:53
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And we have seen increases in crash risk under those more subtle types of distractions as well.
• 19:59
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so I think that's, you know, we keep talking about how self-driving vehicles are going to solve a lot of these problems potentially, but um in the in the near term, you know, this is a problem we'll continue to have to address is how to help to minimize the frequency with which drivers engage in these types of distractions.
• 20:17
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And again, that's that's been a real challenge because when we look at crash and near crash events, we see you know upwards of 60% of those drivers are involved in some type of distraction, not necessarily phone use, but there's something, not just the driving task.
• 20:33
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And I mean, that that's natural because if we think about the driving task, it can be somewhat monotonous and it's unreasonable to expect that it would have our entire focus 100% of the time that we're driving.
• 20:44
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: But I think as we look at the challenges that are present in some of these different environments, there are circumstances where those distractions are going to be more severe from a safety standpoint.
• 20:55
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And that gets back to where we had started this discussion when we talk about higher speeds and some of these other differences that have emerged over the course of the pandemic as well.
• 21:04
  Jeff Cranson: So yeah, well, you hit on a key point there.
• 21:06
  Jeff Cranson: And I think that uh eventually all the people that are frightened now of the automated technology, you know, the incremental gains that we've already made with, you know, auto braking and lane assist and all those things.
• 21:20
  Jeff Cranson: Uh, one at a time, I think people are accepting of those.
• 21:23
  Jeff Cranson: But then when you say, we're gonna put all that together and your car is gonna be fully automated, then they think, oh no, I'm not ready for that.
• 21:29
  Jeff Cranson: So I think it's gonna happen and people aren't gonna realize how it kind of cropped up on them, but it is a good thing.
• 21:34
  Jeff Cranson: And sorry, but the computer is a better driver than you are.
• 21:37
  Jeff Cranson: That's just a fact.
• 21:38
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Yeah, that's that's certainly true.
• 21:39
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And we've we've got some ongoing work actually that's evaluating some of those technologies like automatic emergency braking and adaptive cruise control, is one that I I love personally.
• 21:49
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: It's just amazing how much that technology has advanced over the past few years.
• 21:53
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so, you know, a lot of this it's gradual integration into the vehicle fleet, and we're talking deck.
• 21:59
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Decades, not just years here to get to a real saturation point there.
• 22:03
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: But um really interested to see what happens uh in the near term.
• 22:07
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Because I think if if we're to think of a silver bullet, I think everyone thinks that self-driving vehicles may be it.
• 22:12
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: But there are you know a myriad of uh political, social, privacy related challenges that we need to overcome.
• 22:20
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: But even some of these lower level uh driver assistance features, I think, could potentially have some really big impacts in trying to address some of the issues we're talking about here today.
• 22:28
  Jeff Cranson: Well, the bottom line is, and I know this is settled out almost to the point that it's become cliche, but if we accept 35 to 40,000 deaths on our roads every year, and if we had that many deaths, 100, 200 at a time in air traffic crashes, that would not be acceptable.
• 22:46
  Jeff Cranson: We have to try to square that, I think.
• 22:48
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Yeah, and I I guess that kind of continuing on the discussion of self-driving vehicles, you know, you see one fatality in driving a self-driving vehicle, and that's in the news for days, if not weeks, but we have hundreds that are are losing their lives on a you know daily or weekly basis here.
• 23:06
  Jeff Cranson: Um and almost every time there was a crash involving a self-driving vehicle, it turned out that it was the driven vehicle that was the cause of the crash.
• 23:14
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Yeah, yeah, that's that's that's true.
• 23:15
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: If you look at the rates of crash involvement, uh crashes that are the fault of the self-driving vehicle, those rates are much, much, much lower.
• 23:23
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: But crashes involving other, oftentimes uh less patient uh human drivers.
• 23:28
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Um, and and that gets back to some of the practical issues.
• 23:31
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Those self-driving vehicles are typically driving the speed limit and engaging in other more safe driving practices, and in part because of liability concerns.
• 23:40
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: Um, but I think this kind of circles back again to those more aggressive drivers who tend to be more likely to be crash involved.
• 23:48
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: They don't have the patience to wait for those self-driving vehicles.
• 23:51
  Dr. Peter Savolainen: And so I think we're probably talking a few years down the road here now, Jeff, but I'd be really interested to only see a fairly large mix of these self-driving vehicles to see how these other drivers tend to adapt.
• 24:01
  Jeff Cranson: So we'll be very interesting to watch.
• 24:04
  Jeff Cranson: Well, thank you again, Peter, for taking the time to do this.
• 24:07
  Jeff Cranson: And I'm sure we'll be talking about it again in the future because it's uh it's a really important topic.
• 24:12
  Jeff Cranson: All right.
• 24:12
  Jeff Cranson: Thank you very much, Jeff.
• 24:13
  Jeff Cranson: Please stay tuned.
• 24:15
  Jeff Cranson: We'll be back with more talking Michigan transportation right after this.
• 24:23
  MDOT Message: Even with the best planning, backups and traffic congestion can occur during road construction.
• 24:29
  MDOT Message: This can pose hazardous situations for both motorists and construction workers, particularly when drivers are distracted.
• 24:36
  MDOT Message: Motorists are more likely than workers to be killed or injured in work zone-related incidents.
• 24:42
  MDOT Message: Additionally, the leading causes of all work zone-related crashes are distracted driving and speeding.
• 24:48
  MDOT Message: So it's crucial to do your part in ensuring the safety of both drivers and focusing on your most important task, safe driving.
• 24:56
  MDOT Message: Slow down and stay focused.
• 25:00
  Jeff Cranson: Okay, we're back.
• 25:01
  Jeff Cranson: And as promised, we have Jonathan Atkins, who is the executive director of the Governor's Highway Safety Association based in Washington.
• 25:10
  Jeff Cranson: Um, Jonathan, first of all, thanks for being a repeat guest on the podcast.
• 25:15
  Jeff Cranson: I appreciate it.
• 25:16
  Jeff Cranson: Repeat offender, thank you.
• 25:18
  Jeff Cranson: So I talked earlier with Peter Savolainen, who is uh a prof civil engineering at Michigan State University and studies driver behavior and traffic safety.
• 25:31
  Jeff Cranson: And he's one of our state's foremost experts.
• 25:33
  Jeff Cranson: Uh-huh.
• 25:34
  Jeff Cranson: And as you would guess, he's kind of scratching his head and disturbed about uh the trends that we're seeing here and elsewhere in the country.
• 25:41
  Jeff Cranson: Um, you and I last talked about this a few months back.
• 25:43
  Jeff Cranson: With some e time to absorb more and look at more research.
• 25:47
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, what do you think is the reason?
• 25:49
  Jeff Cranson: Is it as simple as uh fewer drivers on the road?
• 25:53
  Jeff Cranson: So people started driving faster and they just kept driving faster.
• 25:56
  Jeff Cranson: Or, you know, what what do you account the the spike in crash deaths, not a spike in crashes, but crash deaths?
• 26:02
  Jeff Cranson: Well, what would you blame that on?
• 26:04
  Jonathon Atkins: It's no with traffic safety, unfortunately, it's never just one factor, but we think speed is certainly a big factor.
• 26:10
  Jonathon Atkins: We now have uh preliminary data from the full year of 2020, and uh overall uh fatalities are up 7 uh percent.
• 26:20
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh and that's not a rate, Jeff.
• 26:22
  Jonathon Atkins: That's actual actual deaths.
• 26:24
  Jonathon Atkins: So think to think about that.
• 26:26
  Jonathon Atkins: We had so many few people on the roads.
• 26:28
  Jonathon Atkins: Many of us were privileged and able to work from home and stay home for much of 2020, yet overall traffic deaths are up and they're up significantly.
• 26:37
  Jonathon Atkins: Um speeding related deaths are up, uh, according to the federal government, about 11%.
• 26:42
  Jonathon Atkins: We think that's probably an underestimate.
• 26:45
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, when officers um investigate crashes, uh, they don't necessarily always um attribute them to speed.
• 26:53
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh, they may be attributed to other things.
• 26:55
  Jonathon Atkins: So if the federal government data says it's up 11%, uh, that's speeding related crashes, probably up a lot more than that.
• 27:01
  Jonathon Atkins: And unfortunately, uh, we're hearing from governors' highway safety offices that 2021 uh so far hasn't been any better.
• 27:09
  Jonathon Atkins: And so this isn't just a blip of a few months.
• 27:12
  Jonathon Atkins: This isn't, you know, we're starting to talk about really a year and a half now of crashes spiking.
• 27:17
  Jonathon Atkins: So it's pretty concerning.
• 27:19
  Jeff Cranson: So it kind of created a habit, is what it sounds like.
• 27:21
  Jeff Cranson: Um, people got used to driving fast when the roads were open and um keeping though the the traffic is back and we're seeing congestion again.
• 27:28
  Jeff Cranson: People are still driving fast.
• 27:30
  Jonathon Atkins: They got used to driving fast, and they also started to notice that, oh wow, I can go above the speed limit and I can get away with it.
• 27:37
  Jonathon Atkins: And uh, guess right, people are unfortunately are correct.
• 27:40
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh early on in the pandemic, law enforcement was uh understandably hesitant to make stops because of COVID concerns.
• 27:48
  Jonathon Atkins: You compound that with the national discussion we're having about the role of uh law enforcement and traffic safety and public safety, and we're seeing a lot less stops across the country.
• 27:59
  Jonathon Atkins: So the public is able to get away with um with speeding.
• 28:02
  Jonathon Atkins: And we're not talking about you know going 27 and a 25 mile an hour speed limit.
• 28:07
  Jonathon Atkins: We're talking about you know big interstate speeds, sometimes of 90, 100 miles an hour.
• 28:12
  Jonathon Atkins: We had one in Missouri that was 140 miles an hour.
• 28:16
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, if you're in a crash and you're driving 90, 100 miles an hour, you're not going to survive.
• 28:21
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh, I don't care what kind of vehicle you have.
• 28:24
  Jeff Cranson: When you think about the advocacy and what you do and what your organization does, beyond enforcement, which you only have so much control over, you can advocate for better enforcement, you know, more targeted enforcement.
• 28:36
  Jeff Cranson: Is it really about education?
• 28:38
  Jeff Cranson: And I guess how challenging is that?
• 28:41
  Jonathon Atkins: It's more than education.
• 28:43
  Jonathon Atkins: Engineering has to play a key role, uh, particularly in urban and suburban areas.
• 28:47
  Jonathon Atkins: Our roads are built for speed, they're not built for safety.
• 28:51
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh, we have a lot more pedestrians out, we have a lot more bicyclists out.
• 28:55
  Jonathon Atkins: And so um engineering is really at the top of the list of solutions.
• 29:00
  Jonathon Atkins: But I don't want to gloss over enforcement.
• 29:02
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, enforcement is one of the most effective things um that we can do uh to address driver behavior.
• 29:09
  Jonathon Atkins: If if we're drivers and we think we might get a ticket, that that slows us down.
• 29:14
  Jonathon Atkins: And if if we do get a ticket, you know what happens?
• 29:17
  Jonathon Atkins: We go on Facebook and Twitter and tell all of our friends and neighbors, man, I just got a ticket.
• 29:21
  Jonathon Atkins: Somebody says, where was it?
• 29:23
  Jonathon Atkins: Oh, okay, I'm gonna slow down there.
• 29:24
  Jonathon Atkins: Thank you for the alert.
• 29:25
  Jonathon Atkins: Um enforcement isn't about just gotcha and giving people tickets, it's about changing behavior.
• 29:32
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, click it or ticket is really one of the most successful public health programs uh in our country's history.
• 29:39
  Jonathon Atkins: So um these calls to move away from enforcement uh really concern the Governor's Highway Safety Association because when we when we defund the police, we're really defunding traffic safety and making our roads less safe.
• 29:52
  Jeff Cranson: So since you mentioned click-it or ticket, uh the the Michigan stats are in, and I'm guessing this is probably going to be mirrored in other states.
• 29:59
  Jeff Cranson: It looks like uh seatbelt usage, at least according to uh what they tracked on fatal crashes and the number of people who were wearing seatbelts that were involved in fatal crashes, seatbelt use was down 78% in Michigan last year.
• 30:13
  Jonathon Atkins: I hope that's a blip, but we are hearing it in other states.
• 30:17
  Jonathon Atkins: Perhaps during the pandemic, um people had other things on their mind.
• 30:21
  Jonathon Atkins: Um they again, they thought they weren't going to be stopped, um, and they weren't gonna get a ticket.
• 30:25
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, I'm hoping long term that um, you know, seatbelt use will remain high.
• 30:30
  Jonathon Atkins: About you, we've had about 90% of the country uh regularly buckling up, and that's been tremendously successful.
• 30:37
  Jonathon Atkins: And that's you know, a seatbelt continues to be your best defense against a drunk driver or an aggressive driver.
• 30:43
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, so I'm hopeful um that we're gonna see some better numbers um coming out um around seatbelt use in the near future.
• 30:52
  Jeff Cranson: My theory on that, I think last year when when we talked and I spoke with you and and some troopers, is that part of that was just a reaction to all the various executive orders and people just being tired of being told what to do.
• 31:06
  Jeff Cranson: And the same people that said, you know, nowhere are you gonna make me wear a mask, suddenly decided, nowhere are you gonna make me wear a seatbelt.
• 31:12
  Jeff Cranson: Uh, Dr.
• 31:12
  Jeff Cranson: Savolainen at Michigan State theorized that it probably was kind of a self-selecting group, the people who still had to be on the road uh because they were essential workers and for other reasons, and because they were willing to go out and do things even when, you know, we were told not to, would also have been the type of people who weren't wearing seatbelts.
• 31:32
  Jeff Cranson: So it might not have been that more people weren't wearing them, but they were just the people on the roads.
• 31:36
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh, it sounds very logical, and it probably also applies to speeding.
• 31:40
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh, risk takers were out and about.
• 31:42
  Jonathon Atkins: People, some of us were not listening to the to the guidance.
• 31:46
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, but you know, I do see um drivers um, particularly during the high height of the pandemic, that you know, may have their mask on in their vehicle, but driving very quickly.
• 31:56
  Jonathon Atkins: And so uh we we've got a lot of work to do here.
• 32:00
  Jonathon Atkins: Um you think how ironic and how bitterly ironic it is to have done all the right things, to survive COVID, and then as soon as you get back to work or as soon as you start to go visit family, you get in a traffic crash and you get injured or worse die.
• 32:14
  Jonathon Atkins: We don't want to uh, you know, just as we start to have some positive momentum in this country, having traffic crashes go up significantly.
• 32:23
  Jonathon Atkins: And we're talking about 40,000 people dying every year um is really significant.
• 32:28
  Jonathon Atkins: We need this same level of energy and commitment that we've had to address COVID, um, to address traffic crashes, because uh 40,000 of our friends and neighbors continue to die every year.
• 32:39
  Jonathon Atkins: And uh we find that unacceptable.
• 32:42
  Jeff Cranson: Well, yeah, and if we had, you know, 400, 100 passenger airliners go down, uh they would be huge stories, each of them.
• 32:49
  Jeff Cranson: And so I I wonder if some of this is the creativity of the media to put that 40,000 number in context and perspective.
• 32:56
  Jeff Cranson: And you know, I say this as a person who spent most of my career in media, but it's easy to take it for granted when they happen one at a time, I think.
• 33:05
  Jonathon Atkins: We need the media to help.
• 33:06
  Jonathon Atkins: It's challenging with the issue of speeding in particular because we all do it.
• 33:11
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, we're all guilty of speeding, even and the same with distracted driving.
• 33:16
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, media are some of the ones who are most guilty of that because they're always on deadline, they're always covering the story.
• 33:22
  Jonathon Atkins: But we need our we need our media partners to draw um attention to this.
• 33:27
  Jonathon Atkins: Um we need victim advocates.
• 33:29
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, those are some of the most effective um people we have to advocate for traffic safety.
• 33:35
  Jonathon Atkins: We really need a mad for speeding, um, because most of us don't see speeding as a as a safety issue.
• 33:42
  Jonathon Atkins: If you're out at a party and you tell somebody now that we can be out at parties again, you tell somebody that you're driving drunk the other night, they're gonna look at you like you're nuts.
• 33:51
  Jonathon Atkins: But if you say, oh, I got here quickly because I went 90 miles an hour, most people are not gonna look at you funny.
• 33:57
  Jonathon Atkins: They just may roll their eyes.
• 33:58
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, so what we need to do is really um build a culture that doesn't um support speeding and that sees um speeding, particularly excessive speeding, uh, as a true safety issue.
• 34:10
  Jeff Cranson: I think you're right.
• 34:11
  Jeff Cranson: Most people um probably aren't gonna look at you funny unless you happen to hang out with a lot of traffic safety engineers.
• 34:16
  Jeff Cranson: But you're you're absolutely right.
• 34:18
  Jeff Cranson: Well, there's a party.
• 34:19
  Jeff Cranson: Well, speaking of that, because you and I are both strict adherents to crash, not accident.
• 34:27
  Jeff Cranson: Uh, do you feel like uh are you a buzzkill sometimes at parties when you you correct family and friends who who say accident?
• 34:35
  Jonathon Atkins: I probably I think people are always surprised that those of us uh in traffic safety, some of us are social drinkers as an example.
• 34:43
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, I'm always the first one to say, how are you gonna get how are you getting home?
• 34:47
  Jonathon Atkins: Do you know about Uber and Lyft?
• 34:49
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, and so it can be a little bit of a buzzkill.
• 34:52
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, but that's okay.
• 34:53
  Jonathon Atkins: If our friends and neighbors and family get home safely, um, I don't mind doing that.
• 34:57
  Jonathon Atkins: You don't find yourself off the invite list because of that?
• 35:00
  Jonathon Atkins: No, so for so far I haven't, you know, sometimes I uh also know where the uh uh sobriety checkpoints are.
• 35:07
  Jonathon Atkins: So um people think I might be able to help them with that.
• 35:10
  Jonathon Atkins: And uh I tell them if they're they're worried about getting stopped, let's let's just get them home safely so they don't get that ticket.
• 35:16
  Jeff Cranson: Good advice.
• 35:16
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah.
• 35:17
  Jeff Cranson: So Waze and Google obviously uh will alert you to uh speak traps.
• 35:22
  Jeff Cranson: And I don't know if that's you know counterproductive or not.
• 35:25
  Jeff Cranson: Maybe some police would say as long as people think they're out there, you know, maybe that creates an awareness overall.
• 35:31
  Jeff Cranson: And some other people would say, well, that defeats the purpose if they just feel like they can, you know, dodge them.
• 35:35
  Jeff Cranson: And I suppose it's the same with sobriety checkpoints.
• 35:37
  Jonathon Atkins: Yeah, they're they're different there are different opinions on that.
• 35:40
  Jonathon Atkins: I always say that just, you know, if you know about one checkpoint, there are probably a couple others you don't know about.
• 35:46
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, but again, you know, the the success with enforcement is that high visibility.
• 35:50
  Jonathon Atkins: It's not necessarily writing tickets, it's that that law enforcement are out there.
• 35:54
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, that slows everybody down, that changes behavior.
• 35:57
  Jonathon Atkins: And so the more of that we can do, uh, and the more of it we can do um with community support and community buy-in um is really important.
• 36:06
  Jeff Cranson: Well, you made a point last time we talked, and I think it's relevant to what you said earlier about people getting used to driving faster, and that's the 85th percentile.
• 36:16
  Jeff Cranson: There are still a number of people.
• 36:18
  Jeff Cranson: Um, I see these bills, you know, sponsored in Michigan to raise more speed limits, especially on rural two lanes.
• 36:25
  Jeff Cranson: And so many people have bought into this idea that the 85th percentile um is the benchmark, and that's really all you need to look at.
• 36:33
  Jeff Cranson: And I think what you said earlier about people's speeds creeping up and staying there just proves the the problems, you know, the flaws in using the 85th percentile.
• 36:43
  Jonathon Atkins: I think there's movement finally away from that.
• 36:45
  Jonathon Atkins: And we are seeing some discussions in state legislatures um when speed limit increases are discussed about the impact um uh uh on public safety.
• 36:54
  Jonathon Atkins: And so I think I think the tide is beginning to turn.
• 36:57
  Jonathon Atkins: I think more of us are out walking and biking, and that changes our perspective sometimes a little bit.
• 37:03
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, we don't have the the lens of a motorist, but we have then the lens of a of a of a road user.
• 37:08
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh most of us bike, many of us uh, or most of us walk rather, many of us bike.
• 37:13
  Jonathon Atkins: Um that changes your perspective a little bit.
• 37:16
  Jeff Cranson: Well, yeah, and I was talking to your friend and mine, Lloyd Brown at Ashto, about that um just earlier this morning because of uh, I don't know if you saw a hack on a dynamic message sign in Brooklyn that uh got a lot of Twitter traction, not just because it was funny, but because of the messages about how cars kill people and you know our roads aren't safe for pedestrians and cyclists.
• 37:40
  Jeff Cranson: And it's it's it's scrolled through a lot of these these kinds of messages.
• 37:43
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, really, here we are more than 100 years since vehicles, motor vehicles first took to the roads and and were in fact mowing down pedestrians and and cyclists.
• 37:54
  Jeff Cranson: And we still haven't come far enough in terms of how we all get along, whether that's planning and engineering and design and awareness, I guess all those things.
• 38:04
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, are are you hopeful that with this administration and with Secretary Buddha judge that we're gonna make real strides in that area?
• 38:11
  Jonathon Atkins: Well, certainly having uh having a secretary who's um biking to work is is exciting for for many of us.
• 38:17
  Jonathon Atkins: We've got a lot of work to do.
• 38:19
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, I think that one of the good things that come out of the pandemic is that we're particularly in the urban areas, we're looking at at how we use streets um a little bit differently, thinking about you know, streeteries and and and making sure that public spaces are accessible um to all.
• 38:35
  Jonathon Atkins: So I am hopeful.
• 38:36
  Jonathon Atkins: Um we have to learn to get along.
• 38:38
  Jonathon Atkins: And um just because I'm a pedestrian and a bicyclist doesn't mean I don't have a car as well, and then I, or that I hate people with cars.
• 38:46
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, I like to remind people that Twitter is not life.
• 38:50
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh, most of us um bike and walk and drive, and we do want to uh be able to get along with each other.
• 38:56
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, I think that's important.
• 38:58
  Jeff Cranson: Well, there's a understood resentment, I think, by some people who, you know, need a car to survive.
• 39:04
  Jeff Cranson: And it's it's just the opposite of some people who take public transportation because they can't afford a vehicle.
• 39:09
  Jeff Cranson: There are some people who can afford to not have a vehicle, depending on the expensive urban area you live in and what's available to you in terms of other transportation options and the fact that maybe you can just afford Uber when you need it.
• 39:19
  Jeff Cranson: Right.
• 39:20
  Jonathon Atkins: And those about I'm from West Virginia, and um I always sort of chuckle when people say, Well, why don't you just take the subway or or use Uber or Lyft?
• 39:28
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, a lot of areas in the country don't have those options.
• 39:31
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, and so we have to make sure that um we're not thinking of this purely from an urban lens.
• 39:38
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah.
• 39:38
  Jeff Cranson: So let's talk a little bit about something that I know you touted on on your website in the Washington Post did a pretty thorough story about, and that's uh the data that shows that the minorities, um blacks, uh uh American Indians, uh Latinums suffered greatly or more or more greatly, I guess, because of crashes during the pandemic.
• 40:01
  Jeff Cranson: Um what what do you think that tells us?
• 40:03
  Jonathon Atkins: Yeah, the Governor's Highway Safety Association looked at um data from uh 2015 to 2019 and confirmed really what we already knew uh is that traffic crashes impact minority communities um at a much greater uh rate and level than um those those uh other communities.
• 40:23
  Jonathon Atkins: And so, you know, it's a really a reminder that we need to think about transportation broadly.
• 40:28
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh, we need to make sure that um all communities have uh uh safe and accessible um bicyclist uh paths and safe places to walk.
• 40:39
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh we need to look at emergency vehicles and emergency response times.
• 40:44
  Jonathon Atkins: Sometimes communities uh that have a higher percentage of uh people of color uh may not have access to the to the um best emergency medical equipment.
• 40:54
  Jonathon Atkins: It may take longer to to get to some of those neighborhoods, so the response times uh can go down.
• 41:00
  Jonathon Atkins: We also have to look at how we uh how we engage these communities and how we message to them.
• 41:06
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh we need to make sure that people that are uh advocating for traffic safety and thought leaders um represent and look like the communities that that they that they serve.
• 41:15
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh that's really important for law enforcement.
• 41:18
  Jonathon Atkins: We need to have uh law enforcement leaders that are people that are people that are persons of color that are female, that again live in the in the in diverse communities.
• 41:28
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, there's a lot that has to be done on that.
• 41:30
  Jonathon Atkins: And and uh the study from GHSA reinforces that.
• 41:33
  Jonathon Atkins: And then we have new data uh that you referenced from NHTSA that showed um black individuals uh significantly more impacted by traffic crashes um in 2020.
• 41:44
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh non-Hispanic black people deaths were up uh 23%.
• 41:48
  Jonathon Atkins: Uh that's huge.
• 41:49
  Jonathon Atkins: Think about 23%.
• 41:51
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, a lot of different um thoughts on why that may be.
• 41:55
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, some folks who are smarter than I am have said that it may be that uh minorities and and lower income people uh were the ones that had to be on the roads in 2020 because of um they didn't have the privilege uh that some of us have had to work from home, thinking about uh restaurant workers and hotel workers and others.
• 42:14
  Jeff Cranson: Absolutely.
• 42:14
  Jeff Cranson: That absolutely had to be at least part of it.
• 42:16
  Jeff Cranson: I mean, going to where you started, there's no single one reason, but that has to be a factor.
• 42:22
  Jonathon Atkins: Yeah, and and we we just have we have to do better and we have to commit to do better.
• 42:26
  Jonathon Atkins: And it can't be just something that we talk about um, you know, equity has to be an ongoing effort um by highway safety offices, by state DOTs and others.
• 42:36
  Jonathon Atkins: Um it's never, you know, it can always be better.
• 42:39
  Jonathon Atkins: Some states are probably better than others, some communities are better than others, but it can't just be a buzzword that we talk about because there's a new president.
• 42:46
  Jonathon Atkins: Um it has to be um really a factor in all the work that we do.
• 42:51
  Jonathon Atkins: Um even for organizations like like the DOT or GHSA, we need to look at how we recruit staff people.
• 42:58
  Jonathon Atkins: Are we are we um posting jobs at um institutions uh that are that are diverse?
• 43:04
  Jonathon Atkins: Are we or are we just posting them in our own social network sometimes?
• 43:08
  Jonathon Atkins: That that doesn't give you a broad applicant pool.
• 43:11
  Jonathon Atkins: We really have to have bring in people from the communities we serve and that look like uh the communities we serve.
• 43:18
  Jeff Cranson: Well, amen.
• 43:18
  Jeff Cranson: Um you you said that well, and I think that uh you're right that we need the the offices of highway safety planning and all the advocates for traffic safety to factor that in.
• 43:27
  Jeff Cranson: But I also think that it has to just be part of all the broader equity discussions and that that this specific topic what we're talking about and the victims of crashes needs to be treated like uh you know other public health issues that disproportionately affect minorities.
• 43:43
  Jonathon Atkins: Absolutely.
• 43:43
  Jonathon Atkins: And thinking about law enforcement, um a lot of the defunding efforts across the country um are hurting minority communities more so than uh other communities.
• 43:53
  Jonathon Atkins: We've had um leaders in the minority community and in New York City and others uh make that point.
• 43:59
  Jonathon Atkins: So instead Of defunding the police, maybe we need to refund the police, but do it differently this time, have better training, have better um education, make sure that uh we're reaching a lot of different communities that we're recruiting law enforcement from a broad spectrum of the population.
• 44:15
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, there are ways to do this, it's not impossible.
• 44:18
  Jeff Cranson: Yeah, I think that uh, you know, the the way that I I've heard it phrased that makes a lot of sense to look at it is adequately fund, but also rethink.
• 44:26
  Jeff Cranson: That's what we should be talking about.
• 44:28
  Jonathon Atkins: Rethink, um accountability, transparency.
• 44:31
  Jonathon Atkins: Um, there are ways to do this.
• 44:33
  Jonathon Atkins: And um, I'm I'm I'm always optimistic and I'm optimistic that long-term uh public safety and policing uh will be a lot better in this country as a result of the difficult conversations we are have having right now.
• 44:45
  Jeff Cranson: Well, now you've given me an excuse to link in the show notes to you know what the president has spoken about the last couple of days in terms of of committing more funding and resources to policing.
• 44:55
  Jeff Cranson: So thanks for that.
• 44:57
  Jeff Cranson: Sure.
• 44:58
  Jeff Cranson: Okay, Jonathan.
• 44:59
  Jeff Cranson: This is this is great as always.
• 45:00
  Jeff Cranson: Um maybe we can revisit this again in a few months and see if, you know, hopefully we're still emerging from the pandemic and uh, you know, more people are on the roads yet that we're also seeing uh better results.
• 45:13
  Jeff Cranson: So thanks again for taking time to do this.
• 45:16
  Jeff Cranson: Sure, appreciate your time, Jeff.
• 45:17
  Jeff Cranson: I'd like to thank you once more for tuning in to Talk in Michigan Transportation.
• 45:21
  Jeff Cranson: You can find show notes and more on Apple Podcasts or BuzzSprout.
• 45:25
  Jeff Cranson: I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Deber, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, and Jackie Salinas, who posts the podcast to various platforms and transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.