Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 732: From Special Operations to Healing with Psychedelics with Neil Markey

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Episode 732: From Special Operations to Healing with Psychedelics with Neil Markey · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:10
  Are welcome back to the Trauma Divers Podcast. My name is Gaming Person.
• 0:14
  My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible cells, to be human,
• 0:19
  to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in
• 0:23
  who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating
• 0:27
  authenticity, genuineness and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more about
• 0:33
  my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. That's
• 0:37
  the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started. So five four,
• 0:44
  three, two and one. Our folks, welcome back to the Trauma Divers
• 0:49
  Podcast. Very excited to have them, I guess today. Neil Marquis Neil
• 0:53
  welcome. Hey guys, thank you for having me. You are welcome.
• 0:58
  So. As a captain in the US Armies Operations Second Range Battalion, Neil
• 1:02
  was deployed once to Iraq and twice to Afghanistan. After as an mba am
• 1:07
  I a master student at Columbia University, he suffered from depression and PTSD.
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  This led him to alternative well being practices and mark the start roundhilling journey with
• 1:19
  mindfulness and psychedelics. Now as a co founder and CEO of Beckley Retreats.
• 1:23
  He's passionate about sharing the science back benefits of psychedelics in conjunction with the contemplative
• 1:30
  practices that support holistic well being. At BR, He's dedicated to building a
• 1:36
  business that operates with the utmost integrity, both internally and across the many communities
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  it will touch. Neil, welcome, Thank you for having me. So
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  let's start off well, Before we start off here, share the listeners.
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  Where you're from originally and where you are currently. I grew up in a
• 1:53
  small town in Maryland called Frederick. It's about an hour north of DC.
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  And right now I'm in Mexico and a small town an hour north of Portavarta.
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  Winter nice. So let's get into it here. How the heck did
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  all this start for you? Yeah, it's been a it's been a windy
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  road. I was doing my undergrad excuse me, at University of Maryland,
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  and I was studying math, and I thought I was going to go do
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  something with the intelligence agencies and do crypto. They hire a lot of math
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  graduates from Maryland. It's right down the street. And I had a bit
• 2:29
  of the gift in math. I really loved it. And then September eleventh
• 2:32
  happened, and long story short, I ended up in the service. I
• 2:37
  really thought that the country was at risk and I wanted to kind of serve
• 2:39
  and do my part. And then, I mean, the interesting thing was,
• 2:45
  by the time I got through all the training and got to Iraq,
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  you know, we had learned that the weapons of mass destruction narrative was wildly
• 2:53
  wrong and that we were arguably making the worst foreign policy mistake in the history
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  of the United States by being there. Um, so it was challenging,
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  to say the least. And then yeah, it got the opportunity to serve
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  in the Ranger Regiment, and yeah, it was. It was really exciting.
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  I really looked up to the guys that were there, the real operators,
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  you know. I was more of a support guy, but I did
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  my part. You know, Obama was talking about the missions these guys were
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  doing on the news. Leroy Petrie was a soldier there that got the Medal
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  of Honor when I was there. So it was this kind of larger than
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  lifetime, but it was it was. It was incredibly traumatic. I mean,
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  there was trauma everywhere and it was actually in I mean, it was
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  in the organization. You know, like when I did my first deployment,
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  a lot of those guys had done ten you know, they had been deploying
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  nonstoff since September eleventh, and so I mean, it just it leaves marks
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  on you know, it gets your central nervous system. You get into this
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  fight or flight state, you know, when you walk around with your fists
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  clenched for so many years, and it's hard to it's hard to wind out
• 4:00
  out. It's really hard to wind out. It takes a lot of work.
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  Well, I think that they're in lies the entree to this discussion here,
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  When and how and why did you get out? Well, I mean
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  I was a bit smoked, you know. And again I can't even imagine
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  the guys that were like even more in it and had done many more deployments.
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  But I was exhausted, you know. I had a head injury and
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  had some issues with that from an airplane jump and in the range of Regiment's
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  interesting if you're if you're an officer, you can't kind of move up.
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  You have to go back into the regular army first and then move up the
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  chain and then apply to come back in. So for the captains at the
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  time. The decision was get out or go back to the regular army.
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  And frankly, I didn't have a really good experience in the regular army all
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  so I followed what a lot of the guys that were a few years in
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  front of me were done. Wards was going going back to school. And
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  yeah, I applied to a few programs. I got accepted into Columbia when
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  I was in Afghanistan, and yeah, and just I needed a break,
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  you know, I just I really needed a break. And when did you
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  begin experiencing symptoms? How did that unfold for you? I mean it started,
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  you know, it starts early, right, there's like the big tea
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  traumas and the loyal tea traumas, the big teas or these like intensive events.
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  You know, I had a couple close calls in Iraq and then you're
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  just in these you know, we pick up on each other's central nervous systems.
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  So when you're around a lot of people that have central nervous systems that
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  are in fight or flight, you know, it just becomes the new norm.
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  And so I mean I was having symptoms midway through my my service time,
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  and then they got I would say, progressively worse. So it's like
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  sleeplessness. You know, relationship and ships struggle because you know, you you
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  you become mechanized, you know, you become you train to be able to
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  be able to do hard things, and then it's hard to go home to
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  your friends and family and be a warm, empathetic connected individually. I mean,
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  the folks that can do it, it's miraculous to me. And so,
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  you know, I was having some of those issues. And alcoholism is
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  rampant in the service because people are trying to numb and I didn't have the
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  best relationship with alcohol preer period of time. And then I think when I
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  got to grad school, um, I mean I was a fish out of
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  water. You know. I had been in the living a whole different life,
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  and then I'm in New York City, um, and just around a
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  completely different mindset and and and then the mission was gone, the brotherhood was
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  gone. Kind of what I knew was gone. And then that's when I
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  think things kind of like got kind of got a bit scary for me,
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  But it was it was interesting because I was doing very well professionally. I
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  had one side of my life I was able to really keep together, you
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  know, I was at a really good school. I'd been a highly ranked
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  officer, and I was getting job offers at these really prestigious companies. But
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  I was I was spiraling, you know. And then that's when, Um,
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  yeah, I mean I tried a lot of different things. I tried
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  SSRIs and anti anxiety medications and they'd work for period, and then they wouldn't
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  work, or the symptoms were worse than the or the side effects were worse
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  than the original symptoms. And I got connected to a guy at Columbia who
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  was teaching a mindfulness course, and that kind of started me on this path.
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  Meditation was kind of my first entry into this new world of non traditional.
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  Um, I guess non Western traditional. You know, it's actually very
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  traditional with we forgot about them in our societies. And what was your experience
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  with meditation? Meditation was was interesting? Um. I just had this like
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  deep, kind of embodied intuitive knowing this that I needed it. It was
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  super hard for me because when your bodies in that fight or flight, many
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  of us are in it. It's a spectrum, you know what I mean,
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  so many of us are kind of chronically in it. But when you
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  try and meditate, you know, the mind, the central nervous systems really
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  activated, and the mind is really activated because it's essentially looking for threats,
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  you know, So when you try and get it to settle down and stay
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  in one place for a period of time, it's hard. And I remember,
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  you know, doing the exercises and I couldn't count to two, you
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  know, before my mind would jump what's next, what's next? Painting?
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  But I had like, you know, I guess this like the soldier's discipline,
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  and I was like, I'm gonna sit and I'm just I just knew
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  I needed it and it and over time, you know, it gets easier
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  and then you start to have some of the benefits, but it takes a
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  lot of work, you know, And I think that's where psychedelics can come
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  into me. They you know, they should be used with the foundation of
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  meditation, and they can be used to accelerate the benefits of meditation, but
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  they need to be used really wisy. So how did you get to the
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  point where you were introduced to psychedelics and as we can kind of kind of
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  move into, uh the founding of Beckley Retreats here, But how did that
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  unfold for you? Yeah, it was through that kind of same network of
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  meditators that I had the opportunity to do a psilocybin experience with some doctors that
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  were interested in treating veterans. And then that was a big opening for me.
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  I mean it was it was profound. Um. And then that kind
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  of started me on this multi year journey when I was in grad school where
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  I was researching this a lot myself, you know, and studying and doing
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  meditation program and experimenting the psychedelics that I could get my hands on. UM.
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  Well, if I may, um one second here, so I want
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  to if we can put a little a magnifying glass around that experience for you,
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  that was so profound. We'll talk about that more if you if you
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  could. UM yeah, I just you know, it was a mid dose
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  uh Coubenes's psilocybin. Um. I did it in a home an upstate New
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  York and with a couple facilitators and um had music, and it was you
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  know, had intention and the right kind of approach to it. And I
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  did the you know, the standard blindfold and lay there for a while and
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  UM yeah. I mean it's hard to articulate or describe it, but you
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  you enter into some different consciousness you know that you've never been before, and
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  you just you get some clarity around things, things surface, you know,
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  I was crying, um, and yeah it was pretty it was pretty intense.
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  And had you ever done that before? Not in that way? No,
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  not in that way. Okay, not in that way recreationally, you
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  know, but not it's very different, as I know, you know that,
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  h you know, the intention matters to set, and setting matters,
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  the dose matters, the facilitation matters, that lead up matters, the afterwork
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  matters. You know. All the psychonauts of Tim Learys and and the gurus
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  of the of last century, you know, they'd say that the compound is
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  less than fifty percent of the equation. You know, it's all the other
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  things that that really matter, you know, and you've got to get those
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  right. So you walked away from that feeling thinking, what with regards to
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  your own healing? Keep going, keep going? Yeah, keep going?
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  Yeah. I mean the deeper the trauma, the more times it needs to
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  be let go, you know. And so you know it's not a one
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  and done thing. I mean, you can get some you can definitely get
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  some relief, you know for sure, but the you know, the traumas
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  in the body, and it's in the neural pathways, it's in the subconscious,
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  and it's deep. You know. If it's childhood, it's even deeper.
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  You know, it's it's just and if it's extended periods of time,
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  it's deeper. Your your body has become a customed in this way of being,
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  and so it takes a lot of it takes a lot of work.
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  You know. It's when you've been wound as tight as I had been wound.
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  All right, let's just pause here for a second to thank our sponsors.
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  All Right, we are back now. I'm curious about you know,
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  you talked a little bit about being in the service and then coming out and
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  the expectations and how challenging it is to shift. How what was your own
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  experience in terms of recognizing your own trauma, your own well being? You
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  know, was how was that challenging for you to to even admit that you've
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  been traumatized? Yeah? I think so for sure. And I think there's
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  this weird thing that happens in the veteran community too. It's a weird thing
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  when you start measuring trauma, you know, and you start comparing trauma because
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  it's all relative, right, it's all individual. But I think for folks
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  like myself that didn't have it near as bad as guys that you know,
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  had limbs lost. And you know, I mean mine is so minor compared
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  to so many um that you you almost there and then you know that you
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  kind of get trained. There's this um the service kind of trains you to
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  suck it up and drive on right, you know, time to do that
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  stuff. You know, so you gotta and and so that just becomes habit,
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  and it's hard to pause and and and and make change. You know,
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  how did you get to the point where you were like, Okay,
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  I want to start, you know, I'm on this healing journey. I
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  want to start teaching or working with other people. Yeah, I mean over
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  in grad school I started, I mean I was getting really involved in meditation.
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  I was kind of co facilitating some of these meditation classes at Columbia University
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  and was experimenting myself and you know, learning more about spirituality. And also
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  I love looking at the physics side of this work, right, and like
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  the nature of things and if you dig in there deep enough, you get
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  to the same thing that a lot of the organized religions are pointing at you
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  know, it's just you got to take the time to get to a level
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  of understanding. And then I graduated school and I did teacher certification and meditation
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  in Jefferson University, and then I started kind of teaching it more formally.
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  I was teaching veterans and intelligence community guys and business leaders, and I was
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  doing I was doing a lot better. I was actually in a good place.
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  I moved back home. I was working on a small local business with
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  my brother. I had good community, I had good practices. I was
• 14:54
  in nature a lot, and you know, everything kind of life is in
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  his heart. When you're taking care of yourself, things fall into place,
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  things are syncing up. There's a serendipity. And then I had been deferring
• 15:05
  this job offer with McKinsey and Company, which is this, you know,
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  prestigious company that the business world kind of puts on a pedestal to some extent.
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  And I asked them for another deferral because I kind of like what I
• 15:20
  was doing, you know, kind of hobbying around, and they were like,
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  no, we're not going to be your permanent backup plan. And so
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  I ended up going. I wanted to see what was behind the curtain,
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  and I went there and that and that was kind of this period of I
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  would say misalignment in terms of who I want to be in the world and
• 15:43
  my values and the work I was doing in the environment that I was operating
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  in. And so then my mental health kind of went the wrong way for
• 15:50
  a handful of years, and then I hit a little another mini rock bottom,
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  you know, after five years in there and then in private equity and
• 15:58
  doing these restricturing work and then reset and then that was like three years ago,
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  and you know, and then this thing with Beckley and this kind of
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  new path for me kind of came quite organically, and I think, you
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  know, this is it. This is what I'm supposed to be doing,
• 16:14
  This is this is the stuff. I love it. You know, I've
• 16:15
  been fascinated by it. It's it's um you know, I know that we're
• 16:22
  doing meaningful work and helping people, and that's how I want to spend my
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  time. You know, I don't want to chase money and live a hyper
• 16:29
  materialistic life. It's it's just a fool's errand you know, it's just the
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  why that we've alved told how did your idea of you know, who you
• 16:37
  wanted to be shift once you got out of the service. Well, what
• 16:42
  was your idea when you got out of the service, What was your idea
• 16:45
  of who you wanted to be and what you wanted to do? Well,
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  I mean, there's just so much cultural pressure and momentum around us. You
• 16:55
  know, I don't know if I when I was in grad school, if
• 16:56
  I stopped to think about at and like, you know, and I think
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  I got bit called up in the ego chasing money and the prestige of some
• 17:06
  of these fancy jobs. And and you know, I don't come from a
• 17:14
  prestigious background, you know, I'm like a lower middle class kid from Frederick,
• 17:17
  Maryland. But so all those those industries and those jobs like they're they're
• 17:22
  shiny, you know, and then you get them and then you realize that
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  it's like a complete mismatch. And so it was over that period of time
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  when I started having more and more money, and more and more career progression
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  and more and more things, but more and more stress, and then more
• 17:41
  and more unhappiness. And then I got to this point where I was like
• 17:45
  I've like made it, you know, I was the youngest executive at this
• 17:48
  half billion dollar company by sixteen years in my mid thirties. But I was
• 17:52
  I was miserable, you know, and I had a lot of things,
• 17:56
  but my relationships were struggling, and I wasn't doing well, you know.
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  So it was like, what are you my doing? You know, like
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  this is just not this is just pointless. And I'm looking around at all
• 18:08
  my peers, who many of them are quite fortunate and well educated, and
• 18:15
  I mean, you know, some of them were doing kind of really hell
• 18:18
  really well emotionally and from kind of a well being perspective, but a lot
• 18:22
  of them were super stressed out and addicts, right, and I mean alcohol
• 18:29
  or prescription pills and uppers in the morning and downers in the evening. I
• 18:33
  mean it's everywhere. It's crazy how pervasive it is in the United States.
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  And yeah, I mean I just got to another I just got to a
• 18:41
  point where I was like, I'm just kind of fed up, you know,
• 18:44
  I was just a bit disgusted with myself and I just just reset,
• 18:48
  just hard reset. So let me just remind everyone. Speaking with Neil Marky,
• 18:55
  he's co founder and CEO of Beckley Retreats. So what does Becky retreats
• 19:02
  do. What do you folks do? Yeah, we run integrative well being
• 19:07
  programs using psychedelics as a tool. And so our programs there are eleven weeks
• 19:14
  long, that's four weeks of digital preparation where we teach some of these basic
• 19:18
  well being practices again, meditations, foundation, all presence practice is foundational.
• 19:25
  You know. We do these programs in groups because I believe that's how we're
• 19:29
  meant to do this work, how we're supposed to heal. We're supposed to
• 19:30
  heal in community, We're supposed to heal in nature. We're not just supposed
• 19:36
  to take a pill and thinks it's going to fix us. So we teach
• 19:37
  these these practices at the beginning, and then we bring people down on a
• 19:41
  six day intensive where we do those practices together, but it's a digital detox.
• 19:45
  We create space around the experiences. This is really important. And we
• 19:49
  do two mid to high dose psilocybin sessions in a group with like very high
• 19:55
  caliber facilitation, and then on the back end we have six weeks of digital
• 20:00
  integration. And this is this is a huge part of it. You know,
• 20:03
  like from a neuroscience perspective, it looks like what the high dose psychedelic
• 20:07
  compounds do is they put the brain into a more malleable state or a more
• 20:11
  neuroplastic state. They open up potentiality and then you can do something with it.
• 20:15
  But if you don't, you know, what's the problem right now with
• 20:18
  a lot of the US is just people just take it and then they go
• 20:21
  back to their old lives. Well, the brain is going to collapse back
• 20:23
  to the way it was. That's what it knows. But if you're if
• 20:26
  you consciously make effort, you know, you've got this window where you can
• 20:30
  you can make some real change. So this might seem like an obvious question.
• 20:37
  But who who's coming to you? Yeah, it's it's it's quite diverse
• 20:42
  groups. I mean, I love the diversity. It's we had a program
• 20:47
  with a seventy two year old and a twenty four year old. UM,
• 20:51
  I would think there's some there is some clustering around kind of white collar professionals
• 20:55
  right now because I think because of my background and some of the team's background,
• 21:00
  and a lot of it's been word of mouth, and white collar professionals
• 21:03
  are burnt out and tired of the rat race and want to make change,
• 21:07
  you know, so, um, you know, but we're seeing a lot
• 21:12
  of folks from different backgrounds show interest. I think that you know, in
• 21:17
  the last two years, it went from completely taboo too near mainstream. I
• 21:22
  mean you got Prince Harry talking about it, you got Deepak Choper talking about
• 21:26
  it. I mean, it's it's everywhere. You know, It's in Forbes,
• 21:29
  it's in the Economists. So it's even folks that were highly skeptical.
• 21:33
  It's getting to the point where it's like hard to deny that there's something here,
• 21:37
  you know, and more people are saying, Okay, as long as
• 21:40
  I can make sure it's safe and people know what they're doing, I'm I'm
• 21:42
  going to give it a give it a shot, right right. So you
• 21:45
  mentioned mid to high dosing, and there's been a lot of talk of microdosing.
• 21:52
  So help us explains, aside from just the quantity aspect of it,
• 22:00
  what's the difference in terms of, uh, you know, the healing,
• 22:03
  with the journey, etc. In those doses. Yeah, you know,
• 22:10
  it's different approaches for different people. You know, the high doses it is
• 22:14
  obviously it's more intense. It's a more spiritual or you know, consciousness expanding
• 22:23
  kind of boom happens right there in those six hours. You know, people
• 22:27
  come sometimes come out of those and they're just like wow, Like you know
• 22:32
  where microdosing is. Technically, you know, it's a non perceptible dose,
• 22:37
  so it's in the background. You might notice colors a bit brighter. You
• 22:41
  might notice that you're not as reactive, that you're able to kind of like
• 22:45
  stay in the in between a little bit better. And I think both are
• 22:48
  good, you know, but both are you know, I don't think we
• 22:52
  you know, we want to use them as tools and then transition to the
• 22:56
  meditation as the foundation and use pounds from time to time. Um, but
• 23:03
  with within reason and safely and thoughtfully. You can also use psychedelicis as escape.
• 23:08
  You know, if you don't use them the right way, they can
• 23:11
  they can. You know, they create potentiality, so it's not necessarily always
• 23:17
  good. And the mindset matters. You know that we're dealing with consciousness shifts,
• 23:22
  so like where what their intention and what you're doing, why you're doing
• 23:26
  it, you know, has a very significant impact on outcomes during your your
• 23:33
  own healing journey. My guess, as you had seen a therapist of some
• 23:38
  kind, what was you experienced different times. Yeah, what was your experienced
• 23:42
  with that? Like m hm, you know, mixed? Yeah, I
• 23:48
  mean I think I made some progress. I mean I had some good therapists
• 23:52
  and I had some I would say therapist that. And also therapy is kind
• 23:56
  of a fit thing. You know, you got to find something as anate
• 24:00
  with that can understand you and you're on the same plane and um. So
• 24:07
  yeah, it has a lot to do with just the fit. But yeah,
• 24:11
  I think it's good. I mean, you know, the reality is
• 24:14
  we talk about psychedelics a lot, but all the research is on psychedelic assisted
• 24:18
  therapy. You know, it's psychedelic assisted therapy. Therapy is the key word.
• 24:23
  Um. And so you know, we've got to change the conversation and
• 24:27
  you know, get get off this idea that psychedelics are this like magic pill
• 24:30
  that's going to fix everything for us. It's like they're a tool. They're
• 24:33
  a really powerful tool. Um. But they you know, they need to
• 24:37
  be used in conjunction with a program or some professional help or you know.
• 24:45
  Okay, so as we kind of get ready to wind down here, who
• 24:49
  should come to see you guys? Yeah? So, I mean our programs
• 24:56
  are non medical, right, So we screen out severe medical indications. It's
• 25:00
  partially because of the legal frameworks in which we're operating in Jamaica and the Netherlands,
• 25:03
  and it's just kind of the approach that we're taking. I mean,
• 25:07
  we see a lot of benefit and the betterment of the well. Right,
• 25:10
  So taking healthy normals and getting them more happy, more empathetic, more connected,
• 25:15
  more creative. You can do a lot of these things, you know,
• 25:17
  with the narrow plasticity of the mind, you know, through psychedelics.
• 25:21
  And I would say there's a few categories of people, you know. One
• 25:25
  is folks will come down and they'll say something like I'm just stuck. This
• 25:29
  is the white collar professionals. There's just like I'm in my job, I
• 25:30
  don't like my job, I can't make a change. I don't know.
• 25:33
  I've just thought that the train is running down the track and they have not
• 25:37
  been able to make a meaningful change, and they just want to have some
• 25:41
  opportunity to do so. This is these programs are very good for that,
• 25:44
  Like they can they can be a kind of hard reset. We have folks
• 25:48
  come down that will experience experience some recent loss, so like a loss of
• 25:52
  the job or a loved one and they want to like pay it the reverence
• 25:59
  that it deserves and like you know, confront it, but like move on
• 26:03
  from it, you know, like you know, get on with life.
• 26:07
  And so I think again, these programs can be really helpful for that.
• 26:11
  And then we have folks that come down that are just adventurers and spiritual seekers
• 26:17
  and long term meditators and they want to just try psychedelics in a controlled manner.
• 26:22
  But it's really just like for personal exploration and growth, and you know,
• 26:26
  it's it's great for that. You know, it can be UM,
• 26:29
  it doesn't have to be you don't have to be broken to benefit, you
• 26:32
  know, like not far from that. You can be actually highly functioning and
• 26:36
  get you know, even more connected right where you just feel this piece more
• 26:40
  often, You feel more in tune with things right, You feel more gratitude
• 26:45
  right and actually see what most of our lives are UM is like these really
• 26:51
  beautiful, unique flowerings of the universe. You know, instead of being in
• 26:56
  these mental loops around it could be better know what was me? You know,
• 27:02
  like you can you can minimize that. And you talked about you know,
• 27:07
  uh, loss of a job, but which can be traumatizing what about
• 27:11
  those people who have been experienced trauma PTSD or complex trauma. Yeah, I
• 27:18
  mean we look at kind of the whole. You know, we have a
• 27:21
  pretty robust um screening form, and you know, we look at those on
• 27:26
  a case by case basis. It's really like, you know, if someone
• 27:30
  has complex PTSD from the past, um, but they have all of the
• 27:34
  other things in place, like, they have good support systems, they've been
• 27:38
  doing the work for some time, and this is just the next logical step.
• 27:42
  Then there's an opportunity potentially for them to come on the program. If
• 27:45
  they're on high levels of meds, you know, addictions bad like they're they're
• 27:51
  you know, really in a bad shape. Our programs aren't a good fit,
• 27:55
  and we point those folks towards more kind of clinical medical applications where they
• 27:59
  can get help and get up to a certain standard. Yeah, got it,
• 28:03
  awesome, Arniel. What's the best way for people to get in contact
• 28:06
  with you and learn about what you got going on? Yeah, I mean
• 28:10
  Beckley Retreats UM. If you just google it, it will come up Beckley
• 28:14
  retreats dot com. You know, fill out the form you can join.
• 28:18
  We have a webinar every other week you can boobok on on one call and
• 28:23
  yeah, I think that. You know, we've got really a beautiful program
• 28:27
  and a really incredible team, and you know, this is we didn't really
• 28:30
  get to touch on this, but this is the continuation of Amanda Fielding's vision
• 28:33
  with the Beckley Foundation that she ran for you know, it's been running for
• 28:37
  twenty five years. She's kind of one of the really iconic leaders in this
• 28:41
  space. And now you know, the mission is to get it to more
• 28:45
  people, get it out of the labs, and get it to people safely.
• 28:48
  So it's a it's an inspiring, inspiring time to be involved. Awesome,
• 28:53
  awesome brother. All right, man, thanks so much for being here.
• 28:56
  Appreciate you coming on here and share your experience and your perspective. Excited
• 29:03
  to get it out there. Thank you, guys. Appreciate man. Thank
• 29:06
  you. Have a good n see. Yeah,