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Common Tax Mistakes You Could be Making · Retire and Thrive

• 0:00
  Taxes do make a big big difference and a little bit of
• 0:02
  pre planning prior to retirement can make a difference.
• 0:05
  When should you start that planning?
• 0:06
  I've got 3 kids that are 30 and under and we've already had that
• 0:10
  discussion. Do you?
• 0:11
  Have any basic advice when it comes to looking at taxes?
• 0:14
  Having the ability to tap into tax free money or after tax
• 0:18
  money basically allows you to control some of the tax bracket
• 0:21
  that you're in. Welcome back to another edition
• 0:24
  of Retire and Thrive podcast where we help you live your life
• 0:28
  with purpose, wealth, and confidence.
• 0:30
  I'm Cammy alongside Dan. We are so thankful that you're
• 0:33
  joining us today and we are wrapping up our series that
• 0:37
  we've been discussing, talking a lot about taxes.
• 0:40
  And today we're touching one final time on the freedom of tax
• 0:44
  planning and some of the steps that most retirees miss or maybe
• 0:48
  don't think about when it comes to that time.
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  How are you by the way? Everything's good, Yeah.
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  And you? I'm doing well.
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  I mean, the leaves are turning, but yet you still have that
• 0:56
  golden tan going. I find ways to vacation Dan, I
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  always do. So it's not always in Minnesota
• 1:02
  in the fall for you. No, not really.
• 1:04
  No. Sometimes just depends.
• 1:05
  I have, I have weddings and all this like we all do.
• 1:08
  So yeah, it's been good. It's.
• 1:09
  Been good? No, it's been, it's been a good
• 1:11
  fall. We talked about this on episodes
• 1:14
  before, but Midwest, it's challenging golfing with all the
• 1:17
  leaves, but I use that as my crutch.
• 1:19
  You use that as as a way to thrive.
• 1:21
  I don't really do the indoor golf as much as I feel like I
• 1:24
  should. Do you ever do that?
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  Just the other day I went to Top Golf.
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  I happen to be in. Arizona.
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  And I will admit I don't know if it was just an excuse, but
• 1:33
  hitting off the mats is not the same for me so.
• 1:36
  Top Golf is good though. It's for people of all ages and
• 1:39
  all golf abilities. So that's fun.
• 1:41
  Let's touch on taxes. Where should we start here?
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  We're talking about some of the things that people don't think
• 1:46
  about when they are heading into retirement, and they might panic
• 1:49
  when they think about taxes. Yeah.
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  I think taxes are kind of that big uncertainty that we all
• 1:56
  struggle with. And again, I know we've talked
• 1:57
  about this on the previous two episodes as it pertains to
• 2:00
  taxes, but I feel like when we're younger, we're just taught
• 2:05
  to save and save and save and save and not really focus out,
• 2:08
  you know, kind of on 510 even 40 years later when you're younger.
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  And so we run across a lot of people as they approach
• 2:15
  retirement that they don't realize the implication that
• 2:18
  those taxes are going to have on their overall portfolio.
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  And then we get into the withdrawals.
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  And I know today we're going to touch on kind of a last few
• 2:24
  strategies that that may be beneficial.
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  So. OK, where would you like to
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  begin? Well, I think first, often times
• 2:32
  I'm asked, does taxes really have that big of an impact at
• 2:34
  retirement? And so if I can just touch on
• 2:36
  that, because I would say, Cammy, that's probably one of
• 2:39
  the number one questions that I get asked.
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  And again, I look at it as an you got three different buckets.
• 2:44
  You've got the pre tax money, that's money that has never been
• 2:47
  taxed. And then you have after tax
• 2:49
  money. And that would be just an
• 2:51
  accounts that's just in your name or a joint account.
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  We call it after tax or some people call it non qualified
• 2:58
  accounts and then we have what's called tax free money or what's
• 3:01
  called Roth money. And so does that matter?
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  Absolutely. It makes a big, big, big
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  difference. And I know I'd mentioned it on
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  the previous episode, but if you've got a big majority of
• 3:13
  your money that's sitting in pre tax accounts and you are subject
• 3:19
  to future tax rates, then at the end of the day, you're basically
• 3:22
  your backs against the wall. And we kind of use the analogy.
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  It's like having a big mortgage against your largest asset,
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  which a lot of times is a four O 3B or A4O1K.
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  So taxes do make a big big difference and a little bit of
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  pre planning prior to retirement can make a difference.
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  When should you start that planning?
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  I will tell you that I've got 3 kids that are 30 and under and
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  we've already had that discussion because again, it's
• 3:45
  kind of that whole compound effect if you start early.
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  And so I think it's, it's a balance.
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  And, and let me just kind of clarify that, if I may.
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  So often times people say, well, I want as much as I can into tax
• 3:55
  free. Well, I, I think a big part of
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  that is it depends on what other income sources you have.
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  It depends on your overall net worth.
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  And So what I mean by that is if I'm retired and I've got rental
• 4:10
  properties, I've got a pension, I've got Social Security, having
• 4:14
  some additional income that's tax free can make a big
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  difference. But if all I have is Social
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  Security and I don't have those other sources of income, maybe
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  it doesn't make sense to have as much as you can into a Roth
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  account as and, and really what it boils down to, Cammy is
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  trying to stay within those tax brackets.
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  In other words, some people will say if I have $1,000,000, how
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  much of it should be in a Roth? And, and I know I've used this
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  phrase a lot, but I say it depends.
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  And it depends on not only those other sources of income, but
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  what is it that you're wanting to do in retirement.
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  In other words, if you have a desire to spend down that
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  retirement account and you're in those lower brackets, there's no
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  reason to have money into a Roth.
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  And I think that's something that frightens people maybe a
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  little bit. Maybe it shouldn't, maybe it it
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  should, but it's always the IT depends.
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  There's no specific blueprint for everyone.
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  Everyone is unique with where they have their money and how
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  they're handling it. So I do think that might
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  frighten the younger generation as well as people that are
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  closer to that retirement age. So what advice do you have to
• 5:14
  those folks that are maybe joining the podcast that are
• 5:17
  looking for, they might be looking for a bit of a
• 5:20
  blueprint. Do you have any basic advice
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  when it comes to looking at taxes?
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  Yeah. And I, I think that's a great
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  question. And, and it is very, very
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  difficult to answer because everyone's financial picture is
• 5:31
  different. But I remember I had met with,
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  with a doctor last year at, at a, at a local hospital and made
• 5:39
  a very, very high income. And I looked at him and I said,
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  you know, I know your income level is very high.
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  You're in the top marginal bracket, which in this case at
• 5:47
  the federal level is 37%. And he said, I'm maxing out my 4
• 5:51
  O one or four O 3 because it was through the hospital.
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  And I said, you may want to consider putting some of that
• 5:55
  into a Roth. And he said, why would I do that
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  when I'm getting a massive tax break?
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  And at that time, I, I would anticipate he was around 40
• 6:02
  years old. And I said, because we don't
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  know when you go to retire, be at 60 or 65 years old, what tax
• 6:08
  rates will be. Who's to say the tax rates might
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  not be at 45 or 50% And then all of a sudden you're in a point
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  where you save some money now, but down the road you're going
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  to end up paying? And the other thing is what I
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  find is when people are retired, they have choices of what to do
• 6:26
  with that money. But if they want to buy one off
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  expenses, let's say they want to buy a second home or they want
• 6:31
  to buy a motor home or whatever it might be, having money in tax
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  free or after tax gives them choices.
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  In other words, if I've got 80% of my net worth that's tied into
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  a pre tax that's never been taxed and I want to buy a big
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  ticket item that's again a motorhome for 100,000 or or a
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  second home or condo for 3 or 400,000 and I have to pull money
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  out. What that does, Cammy, it
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  automatically pushes you into that next bracket depending on
• 6:57
  the amount you pull out. But having the ability to tap
• 7:01
  into tax free money or after tax money basically allows you to
• 7:04
  control some of the tax bracket that you're in.
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  And again, we don't probably get into a lot of detail about the
• 7:10
  the marginal tax brackets, but you know, it starts out at 10%
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  and then it goes to 12 and then there's a big jump from 12% all
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  the way up to 22%. And then we go from 22 to 24,
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  which isn't a big jump, but then you go from 24 to 32.
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  Could the average person monitor this on their own?
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  A financial advisor is obviously extremely helpful, but if I'm
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  sitting at home and I'm trying to figure it out by myself, is
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  that something I could do? It, it does get complicated.
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  And part of the reason it gets complicated is if you look at
• 7:37
  your paycheck, if you're still working and you're looking at
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  your paycheck, you might look at your total income or your gross
• 7:43
  income. But at the end of the day, what
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  those tax brackets are based on is what your taxable income is.
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  So in other words, if you have an income of $75,000, you're
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  filing a single tax return that puts you in the 22% bracket.
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  You may look at a chart that says hey to the next, you know,
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  I need to get my income down to 40, some thousand to be in that
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  12% bracket. But you don't know what you've
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  got for deductions in your four O 3B.
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  You don't know what your health insurance.
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  So it definitely helps to have someone guide you.
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  But I do want to make one point here because sometimes this
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  isn't clear. So if the tax brackets jump from
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  12% to 22% based on different tiers, whether you're finding an
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  individual return or a joint return, it's only the dollars in
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  excess into the next level that's taxed at those high
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  rates, not all of your income. So it's not if you ended up
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  having three or $4000 taxed at a 22% rate versus 12%, it's OK
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  because it's only about only the amount in excess of that
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  bracket, if that makes sense. Sure.
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  OK. What's the difference between
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  tax prep and tax strategy? Yeah.
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  So that that's really talking about an accountant, right.
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  And so the majority of Americans have their taxes just prepared
• 8:54
  for them. So that's what's called tax
• 8:55
  prep. We don't do that at our firm.
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  We don't do any tax preparation, which is basically filing your
• 9:01
  tax returns. And for for a good majority of
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  Americans, that's great. You just go to ACPA or an
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  accounting firm, have your taxes prepared, but tax strategy or
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  having a strategist actually looks at the big picture and
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  they're planning in advance. So when you go to an accountant
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  or a tax preparer, doesn't necessarily have to be ACPA, But
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  if you went to your tax preparer every March or April or whenever
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  it is and they prepare your tax return, that's kind of a
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  reactive approach. It's like, OK, Cammy, here's the
• 9:34
  income that you made last year, here's what you owe.
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  Tax strategist would be more along the lines that would sit
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  down with you and maybe maybe midway through the year would
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  say, OK, Cami, let's take a look at your income and we can see
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  that based on your projections for the rest of this year,
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  you're going to move into that next bracket.
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  Maybe you should bump up your 4O1K contribution to reduce that
• 9:55
  income. So that would be more of a tax
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  strategist that would kind of help along.
• 9:59
  The way, sure, this is a little off topic, but you are so well
• 10:04
  educated on this. How can you explain to the
• 10:07
  viewers how did you learn so much?
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  I know you've been doing this for years and years and it's
• 10:10
  your profession, but you just know everything right off the
• 10:13
  Dome when it comes to taxes. And that's impressive.
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  And I think a lot of us wish we could do that or even have half
• 10:19
  of your knowledge. Where'd you get all this
• 10:20
  education and learn all of this? Yes, you're kind of embarrassing
• 10:24
  me. Yeah, well.
• 10:24
  Seriously, you're very well versed on all of this and I'm
• 10:27
  just like Oh my. Goodness, it's it's and I'm
• 10:30
  going to, I'm going to kind of throw the boomerang back at you
• 10:32
  to embarrass you. I've been doing this longer than
• 10:34
  you probably probably been on Earth.
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  So, so a lot of it is just over time you learn a lot of things.
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  And and I, I look at it as you know, I'm a student of the
• 10:42
  business and so I'm constantly learning.
• 10:44
  Same thing with our other advisors, whether it's getting
• 10:46
  designations of CFP or we just had one get an RICP which is
• 10:50
  focused just on income strategies at retirement.
• 10:54
  But yeah, I, I think a lot of it is just doing it for 3536 years
• 10:59
  now. You do take in a lot and try to
• 11:02
  stay current on the current laws and regulations and just we we
• 11:06
  continue to try and learn and and be better at it than than we
• 11:09
  were the year before. Yeah.
• 11:11
  Is it continuing education or you go to a lot of seminars,
• 11:13
  things like that? Yeah, great question.
• 11:14
  A lot of conferences, a lot of continuing education.
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  And again, in Full disclosure, I do feel like after 35 years, I
• 11:22
  do have a lot of knowledge when it comes to finances, But don't
• 11:25
  ask me any questions about history, don't ask me any
• 11:27
  questions about the twins or or who's who's being substituted.
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  That's just not, I mean, I do narrowly focus in on it.
• 11:33
  I enjoy it. And I think my, again, not to
• 11:37
  get off two topic here with, with the taxes, but probably my
• 11:40
  biggest joy is when we meet with people and they're about ready
• 11:44
  to retire and we build out this plan for them.
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  And it just, they can kind of see it come alive with, you
• 11:49
  know, kind of what it's going to look like in the next 5 years,
• 11:51
  10 years. And often times we get the call,
• 11:53
  well, can we afford to get that cabin or can we afford to buy a
• 11:56
  home down South? And just to see the kind of the
• 11:59
  release or the Peace of Mind that people have once we build
• 12:03
  out a plan, it's very satisfying.
• 12:05
  Yeah, yeah, I'm sure it is. So on that note, let's touch on
• 12:08
  that. How can tax preparing your taxes
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  properly planning things out help people actually really
• 12:14
  enjoy their retirement? I, I think to answer that
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  question, I think it mainly stems from knowing that you're,
• 12:24
  I don't want this to come across the wrong way, but knowing that
• 12:27
  you're, I don't want to say paying the least amount of taxes
• 12:29
  possible, but you're not overpaying for your taxes.
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  And I think without any type of strategy if you're just going at
• 12:36
  it haphazardly. And I know in Lesson 5, we
• 12:40
  talked about Social Security and when should we take Social
• 12:42
  Security in the taxability of Social Security?
• 12:44
  And is there any penalties if we pull it about, you know, or to
• 12:47
  start taking Social Security too early?
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  I mean, all of that kind of ties in together.
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  And it's the same thing with taxes.
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  It's like, does it make sense to take Social Security and add
• 12:56
  that additional income if I'm getting a pension and if I have
• 12:59
  all this passive income from real estate?
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  And there's so many factors that go into that.
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  But to answer your question, I think if you have a well laid
• 13:09
  out plan from a tax perspective about where the money is coming
• 13:13
  from and how do I maximize those brackets.
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  And we tend to get pretty deep and heavy into it because we
• 13:18
  have software we can analyze different tax scenarios.
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  But let's just assume that you could have an additional $10,000
• 13:27
  worth of income and you're 70 years old and you're still going
• 13:30
  to be in that lower 12% bracket. And if you do nothing and also
• 13:35
  in January rolls around, you've now missed that year's
• 13:38
  opportunity to pull out 12 or $10,000 from your retirement
• 13:42
  account and pay lower taxes. And so at the end of the day,
• 13:46
  knowing that you're maximizing your taxes to to minimize them
• 13:50
  and using the best strategies possible, I think just gives a
• 13:53
  lot of people that we work with retirees, you know, Peace of
• 13:56
  Mind knowing that we're proactively looking at their tax
• 13:58
  scenario. Right.
• 13:59
  A little bit of relief. And for you, it has to be a
• 14:01
  little gratifying to play around with that software and look at
• 14:03
  some of the scenarios and see what you can do for your
• 14:07
  clients. It's been game changing for us
• 14:09
  quite frankly and it's not just somebody who's retired.
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  How much can we continue to pull out and not run out of money but
• 14:17
  or not moving to the next bracket.
• 14:18
  But what else is gratifying is what we call Roth conversions.
• 14:23
  So you know, again, we we touched on this before on the
• 14:27
  whole Roth conversion thing, but a lot of people think, well, I
• 14:30
  would only do it if I'm younger and I have a lot of time for me
• 14:34
  to compound that, that conversion moving money from IRA
• 14:38
  to Roth and paying the taxes now and then having to be tax free.
• 14:41
  But we've got clients that are in their mid 70s that have done
• 14:43
  very aggressive Roth conversions just because they're in a lower
• 14:47
  bracket than what their kids are currently in.
• 14:50
  Maybe they're professionals, they're in a higher bracket.
• 14:53
  So it's not that they're going to use that money, it's more
• 14:56
  about do we want to pay taxes at my rate or at my kids when
• 15:00
  they've, you know, come in to inherit that down the road.
• 15:04
  So I think for us it's really, you know, we can create all
• 15:08
  different kinds of scenarios. You know, what's your tax
• 15:10
  implication if you converted X amount of dollars?
• 15:12
  What's your tax implication if you put another 2% in your Roth
• 15:16
  component? I mean, we can play with those
• 15:18
  numbers. In fact, the software's gotten
• 15:20
  so sophisticated now we can run side by side scenarios with a
• 15:24
  $20,000 Roth conversion versus $50,000 Roth conversion.
• 15:29
  And we can actually split the difference and we can show write
• 15:32
  down the columns dollar for dollar how much it's going to
• 15:36
  cost additional both in terms of the federal tax and then also
• 15:39
  the state tax. Yeah, so and people and it's eye
• 15:42
  opening. People are like, wow, so I can
• 15:43
  convert an extra $30,000 and it's only gonna cost me 5700
• 15:46
  bucks. So at least they can visually
• 15:48
  see what the difference. Is yeah, it's part of the
• 15:50
  transparency and then actually seeing what could happen or what
• 15:54
  they want to do. You have so many clients, you
• 15:57
  probably have hundreds, thousands of stories to share
• 16:00
  with us in regards to taxes alone, probably.
• 16:02
  Do you have any specific story, a client's story that you can
• 16:05
  tell us about where a client, maybe he and his wife or maybe
• 16:09
  it's a solo person, started rethinking their taxes and found
• 16:13
  new freedom as they headed into retirement.
• 16:15
  Or maybe we're already there. I'm.
• 16:17
  Thinking about this couple who were in their early, early 40s,
• 16:20
  I think they were 4445 and he was a retired, he worked at a
• 16:25
  school district and then left the school district after 20
• 16:29
  some years. And he had an opportunity to
• 16:33
  take his PRA in his 40s or he could wait until take it in the
• 16:38
  60s. It wasn't big money.
• 16:39
  It was like 600 and some dollars a month at age 44.
• 16:43
  And if he waited till 65, it was going to be like 600 and some or
• 16:47
  700 and some. So it wasn't a big difference.
• 16:49
  And we did the math and it's like, you know what the, the
• 16:52
  increase every year is only like 3%.
• 16:54
  I think you could invest that and do better.
• 16:56
  So we took that money from his retirement pension.
• 17:00
  He was working another full time job at another company putting
• 17:02
  into his 401K both pre tax and raw.
• 17:06
  But I told him, I said, you know, the challenge is, is that
• 17:09
  you're maxing out your 4O1K and the majority of your money is
• 17:12
  pre tax. What if we just took that 650
• 17:15
  bucks or whatever the dollar amount was for the next 15 years
• 17:18
  and we just set that aside and open up a Roth account and you
• 17:21
  contributed that amount between you and your wife.
• 17:24
  And so they did that. And Fast forward to I think they
• 17:28
  retired a 6263. This was about four years ago
• 17:32
  and their whole picture used to be 90 to 93% pre tax.
• 17:36
  And then when they retired, just because he continued to
• 17:38
  contribute, contribute, contribute for both his wife and
• 17:42
  and himself from that pera monthly teachers pension.
• 17:46
  They ended up with their whole balance sheet or their portfolio
• 17:50
  where they ended up having about 35% of their money that was tax
• 17:53
  free just from almost 15 years of putting money away every
• 17:58
  single month. And it's all, and the reason
• 18:00
  it's significant is this because he was able to have, and I don't
• 18:04
  remember the exact numbers now, but let's just say it was 200
• 18:06
  and some $1000 in the Roth. And maybe he had, you know,
• 18:09
  $600,000 in the pre tax. So combine, say 800,000.
• 18:12
  But I'll never forget this. He, he came about two years
• 18:15
  later, retired about two years later.
• 18:16
  They had a cabin up north and he said and and we were kicking out
• 18:20
  money every single month from his four O 1K that was rolled to
• 18:23
  an IRA. So every month we were kicking
• 18:25
  out a dollar amount plus he had his Social Security, his wife
• 18:28
  took her pension and so they had good income and they were able
• 18:32
  to make it. And so his retirement, both his
• 18:35
  IRA pretax and the Roth just kept growing.
• 18:39
  And he came after about two years and he said, we've decided
• 18:42
  that for the cabin, we've got grandkids and kids that come up.
• 18:45
  We would like to get an ATV just because they're out in the woods
• 18:49
  and they're doing things. And he said, and also we're
• 18:51
  looking at this Lunn boat that was just so beautiful.
• 18:54
  And I said, what, what, what are we looking at?
• 18:56
  And he said all in, we're probably close to $55,000 for
• 18:59
  all of that. And I said, that's great.
• 19:02
  We looked at his his income between his monthly withdrawals
• 19:07
  from his pre tax IRA. We looked at both him and his
• 19:09
  wife's Social Security and her pension and I said here's the
• 19:12
  challenge. If we pull out $55,000, the 1st
• 19:17
  20,000, is it 20% or is it 12% but everything else is going to
• 19:21
  be taxed at 22%. And he asked what those numbers
• 19:25
  are. We ran those numbers and in a
• 19:26
  nutshell, we ended up pulling out the 20,000 out of the IRA
• 19:30
  and then the remaining amount we pulled all out of the Roth 0
• 19:33
  tax. That's what I'm referring to, a
• 19:36
  being able to control the tax bracket you're in.
• 19:38
  So when you have Roth accounts and you can basically, I hate to
• 19:42
  use the word control, but when you can basically pull money out
• 19:46
  of pre tax, take you to that bracket and then have
• 19:49
  opportunities to pull tax free money, it does give you complete
• 19:52
  freedom all. Right.
• 19:54
  Yeah, that's a good story. Happy for those two, that's for
• 19:57
  sure. Finally here, one final question
• 20:00
  for you, Dan. What is one thing that our
• 20:02
  viewers, listeners can take away today that can help them take
• 20:07
  control of their tax future? I think if I were, if I, if I
• 20:11
  were, you know, that's hard. I'll think I'll, I'll just give
• 20:13
  one. I, I think if, if the one thing
• 20:16
  that they could do is I would say be proactive.
• 20:21
  In other words, don't get all of your 1090 nines and W twos and
• 20:26
  go to your accountant or CPA in March and say, what do I owe?
• 20:31
  Have a little bit of strategy and it could be in June or it
• 20:34
  could be in September of the current year.
• 20:37
  Pick up the phone, shoot your accountant e-mail, meet with
• 20:40
  them in person and just say based on where we're at and
• 20:43
  where we're projected, is there anything we should be doing that
• 20:46
  we're not? And it could be something as
• 20:48
  simple as just modifying what you're contributing to your
• 20:51
  4O1K. If you're self-employed, it
• 20:53
  could mean, you know, maybe buying that new piece of
• 20:57
  equipment that might bring your income down.
• 20:59
  But talk to them and just try to be a little bit more
• 21:01
  intentional, a little more proactive, all.
• 21:03
  Right. Tax planning, great.
• 21:04
  Tax strategy, really great. That's what I'm learning.
• 21:08
  All right, Dan, that's all from us.
• 21:09
  Thanks so much for joining us and wherever you're listening.
• 21:12
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• 21:15
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• 21:18
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• 21:21
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• 21:23
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• 21:26
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• 21:28
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• 21:31
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• 21:36
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