Latest / Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast / BPS 386: Lighting the Biggest Films of All-Time with Dean Cundey A.S.C

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BPS 386: Lighting the Biggest Films of All-Time with Dean Cundey A.S.C · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more
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  Speaker 1: amazing filmmaking and screenwriting podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, episode number three eighty six.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: For me, the special satisfaction of being a director of photography,
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: you might even call it a private ego trip, is
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: knowing that the work I do will live on after
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: I'm gone.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: Deancundi broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: we really should be working on that next draft. It's
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  Speaker 1: the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business
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  Speaker 1: of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host,
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof Script Coverage.
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: Now.
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  Speaker 2: Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: on the kind of project you are and the goals
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: of the project you are, So we actually break it
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: down by three categories micro budget, indie film, market and
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  Speaker 2: studio film. There's no reason to get coverage from a
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  Speaker 2: reader that's used to reading temp pole movies. When your
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  Speaker 2: by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot com. Now, guys,
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: I have an amazing treat for you today. We have
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: legendary cinematographer Dean Kundy. Now, if you don't know the name,
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: I think you might know some of the titles of
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: the movies he's worked on. So I'm just gonna go
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: off on a little tangent on what he has worked on. You, guys,
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: get a scope of the man that we're talking to today.
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  Speaker 2: He was a director of photography on Halloween, The Fog,
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  Speaker 2: Escape from New York, The Thing, my personal favorite DC
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  Speaker 2: cab Romancing the Stone, Back to the Future one, two
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  Speaker 2: and three, Big Trouble in Little China, who framed Roger
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  Speaker 2: Rabbit Roadhouse Hook Death becomes her Jurassic Park, The Flintstones,
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Apollo thirteen, Flubber, What Women Want, Parent Trap, and the
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: list goes on and on. He essentially lit my childhood,
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: and it's exactly what I told him when we started
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: the conversation, because I mean, he's responsible for so much
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: joy in my life with the films that he has
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  Speaker 2: made and helped make with some amazing filmmakers. And we
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: really have a wonderful conversation about his techniques, his stories
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: from behind the scenes of making Jurassic Park and dealing
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: with that technology, and who framed Roger Rabbit and dealing
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: with that technology, and working with John Carpenter at the
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  Speaker 2: beginning of his career, and so many other things. And
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: we even talk about working on the Book of Boba,
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  Speaker 2: which is the new spinoff series from The Mandalorian, and
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: how he lit the volume and working in the volume
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: and what was it like. And he also mentioned that
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: he was on his way to shoot season three of
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: The Mandalorian right after we were done talking. So it
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  Speaker 2: was just a wonderful, wonderful conversation. So sit back, relax,
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  Speaker 2: and enjoy my conversation with Dean Kandi. I like to
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  Speaker 2: welcome to the show, Dean Kandy.
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  Speaker 3: How you doing, Dean very good?
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: And how are you, ol, I'm doing very good. I
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  Speaker 2: want to thank you so much for coming on the show.
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  Speaker 2: I've I mean you, I'm sure you hear this all
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  Speaker 2: the time, but you've shot my childhood.
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  Speaker 4: Oh well, yeah, you know what it's It's intriguing. Always
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  Speaker 4: I'll go to a convention or I'll meet people and
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  Speaker 4: they'll say, oh, you know, I it was the first
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  Speaker 4: film my father letting me watch or whatever per Jurassic
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  Speaker 4: Park for instance, And you know, it kind of puts
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  Speaker 4: in perspective the fact that that I'm old and what
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  Speaker 4: the and because a lot of the people who say
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  Speaker 4: they love the film say, you know, was from their
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  Speaker 4: childhood or something, and and I, you know, it wasn't
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  Speaker 4: from my childhood. I was I was older by the
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  Speaker 4: time I was shooting those things, so right, But I'm
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  Speaker 4: glad to see that the the audience has u I
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  Speaker 4: didn't know, uh spread to like three generations for a
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  Speaker 4: lot of these, So you know, to know that I've
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  Speaker 4: touched in some way that many people is very satisfying.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: And one film that I'm sure you don't get talked
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  Speaker 2: about a lot, but it is one of I think
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  Speaker 2: the first time I ever saw your work, because when
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  Speaker 2: it when it came out, I saw it, which was
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: a little film called d C. Cab back in the day,
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  Speaker 2: the Mister T movie, the Joel Schumacher film.
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  Speaker 5: I adore that film, you know, I haven't seen it
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  Speaker 5: in so long, and it was it was a lot
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  Speaker 5: of fun working on it because it was an interesting
• 5:47
  Speaker 5: ensemble cast.
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  Speaker 4: Besides your tea, you know, there was there was Bill Maher,
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: you know, very people. Bill Maher has left acting and
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: now is doing a major TV news show where he
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: does a lot of acting.
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  Speaker 3: You know, So.
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  Speaker 2: Can you tell the audience how do you get into
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  Speaker 2: the business.
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  Speaker 4: Well, I wanted to be in the business since I
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  Speaker 4: was like ten years old. I was fascinated by movies,
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  Speaker 4: fascinated by how they could take you on these journeys
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  Speaker 4: to places you can't go on real life.
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  Speaker 3: You know.
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  Speaker 4: But it wasn't just about the stories. It wasn't just
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  Speaker 4: about being a fan. It was about these these people
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  Speaker 4: who were making these films that would fool us, that
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  Speaker 4: made us think we were on this journey, make us
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  Speaker 4: think we were visiting that place or that time.
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  Speaker 3: And I was.
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  Speaker 4: Intrigued by the fact that there were people with these
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  Speaker 4: skills and this artistry that that.
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  Speaker 3: Could do that.
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  Speaker 4: And I, as a kid, I was interested in magic.
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  Speaker 4: I used to do magic shows for kids' birthday parties
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  Speaker 4: and all my relatives and friends. And I think what
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: intrigued me about magic was fooling people into thinking something's
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  Speaker 4: happening that isn't really it. And I was privileged to
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  Speaker 4: be behind the scenes because I was the magician. And
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  Speaker 4: I think I associated that kind of magic with the
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  Speaker 4: magic of film, the magicians of film who were doing,
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  Speaker 4: you know, just regular sort of mechanical things. When it
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  Speaker 4: ended up on the screen, it.
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  Speaker 3: Was a whole experience for the viewer.
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  Speaker 4: And I was fascinated by that aspect of the magic
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  Speaker 4: and the storytelling.
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  Speaker 3: So I went to Fellow school. I was fascinated all
• 8:04
  Speaker 3: through high school. So I decided to go to Film
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  Speaker 3: School UCLA.
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  Speaker 4: And then when I graduated, I was, I guess, very
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  Speaker 4: fortunate because I know a lot of my friends who
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: graduated then were scrounging and looking for work. And one
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  Speaker 4: of my friends at UCLA had convinced Roger Corman, the
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  Speaker 4: premise low budget filmmaker, to let them do a motorcycle
• 8:34
  Speaker 4: gang movie. And Bruce was the director. He had the
• 8:45
  Speaker 4: wisdom and and all of that to invite all of
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: his filmmaking fellow students that he could get on the
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  Speaker 4: film into working on it. And one of the last
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  Speaker 4: jobs that was left because I was interested in cinematography.
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  Speaker 3: But.
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  Speaker 4: One of the last jobs left was makeup. And I
• 9:10
  Speaker 4: had done some makeup on a couple of their student films,
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: which is why the may autonomy. So as a result,
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: I was doing makeup on Naked Angels and then after
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  Speaker 4: that film wrapped, Roger Corman called me up and said
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  Speaker 4: he wanted me to do a makeup on a film
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  Speaker 4: he was directing. And I thought, well, this is pretty cool.
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  Speaker 4: You get out of film school and immediately start working
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  Speaker 4: in movies. But after that film it stopped. I faced
• 9:49
  Speaker 4: the reality of having to get another job.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor.
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  Speaker 4: Out back to the show, and so I just began
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  Speaker 4: taking any job I could get. I did some special effects,
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  Speaker 4: I did some second camera operating, I did, you know,
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  Speaker 4: just a whole variety of things that were all all
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  Speaker 4: about making contact with people and getting experience and establishing
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  Speaker 4: a reputation of some kind. So I was lucky at first,
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  Speaker 4: it was very intermittent work. But I didn't have to
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  Speaker 4: go and get a job as a waiter or something
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  Speaker 4: like that, because I've seen people who get diverted, you know.
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  Speaker 4: I know young lady who was a brilliant makeup artist
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  Speaker 4: who who had to get another job because you know,
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  Speaker 4: she was missing a period of time work and now
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  Speaker 4: she's been diverted down this way of working like regular
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  Speaker 4: people do.
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  Speaker 3: M h. I didn't want to do that.
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  Speaker 4: I wanted to stick it out and try to stay
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  Speaker 4: in the film business. And and fortunately I was able
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  Speaker 4: to scrounge enough work to get by, and over a
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  Speaker 4: period of time it grew and grew, and then suddenly
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  Speaker 4: I had a bunch of work.
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  Speaker 3: And and that's the way.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess normally you just don't walk out of
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  Speaker 2: film school and they just hand you jobs. Yeah, even
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  Speaker 2: even in today's world, let alone back then as well.
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  Speaker 4: Well, you know, And and that's that's one of those
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  Speaker 4: things that with real world people, you know, they there's
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  Speaker 4: there's got a lot of people who understand that they
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: get out of school and they and they just want
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  Speaker 4: a job, so they go get one and they're happy.
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  Speaker 4: Others who are who's study of law and accounting, and
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  Speaker 4: they can to entry level.
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  Speaker 3: Job to.
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  Speaker 4: Excuse me, they can do everry level jobs of just
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: pushing paper and filing things and in their their chosen field,
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  Speaker 4: accounting or law or whatever, and as a result, they
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  Speaker 4: can sort of work their way up a ladder, and
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  Speaker 4: film is film is very unusual from that standpoint that
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  Speaker 4: you never know where your next job is coming from,
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  Speaker 4: no matter what what the level you climb to, you know,
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: and the same with everybody in the business. I'm me
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: famous actors you know who don't know what their next
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  Speaker 4: film is going to be because even though they may
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: have offers, who knows if the film is going to
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: fall through and they're not going to get paid their
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: twenty million dollars. So you know, it's an unusual business.
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  Speaker 2: Very much so. Now, you worked with John Carpenter on
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: probably I think five films, and the first one that
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  Speaker 2: you worked with him on, which was Halloween. What did
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  Speaker 2: you think of the fluid prowling camera or the or
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: as we call it now, the steady cam. You were
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: one of the first to really use it, especially in
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  Speaker 2: the way you and John envisioned using it.
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  Speaker 4: What was that like, Well, I'll tell you it was very,
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  Speaker 4: very intriguing, rewarding.
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: The steady cam had sort of just.
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: Been invented and it was being used as as another
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: camera to shoot a shot of, you know, walking through
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: a crowd or something like that, but nobody had seen
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  Speaker 4: it as an entire technique.
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  Speaker 3: And John and I had decided that it could become
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: a character.
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  Speaker 4: It could become the eyes of the audience creeping through
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  Speaker 4: this world. It could be the eyes of Michael Myers.
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: It could be us watching Michael Myers moving, giving the
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: audience more of an immersion into the story and the movie.
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  Speaker 4: And then previously, you know, yeah, they've been using handheld
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: cameras and you put the camera on your shoulder, but
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: as you walk, the camera moves with your body, and it,
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: to me, it's always sort of distracting because that's not
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: how we see the world in real life. Our eye
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  Speaker 4: and our brain cowpensates for all of this body movement,
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: and our impression is smooth and you know, continuous movement
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: through life. I like to point out the fact that
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: our life is one long steady cam shot with no cuts,
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: with the exception of one would go to sleep. But
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: it so John and I thought, what a what an
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: interesting tool because it was not hand held, it did
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: not call attention to the camera. It was smooth, and
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: you really, as an audience member, felt that you were,
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: you know, participant in the scene or the story.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: And it was very eerie.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: It was just kind of this eeriness because there's something
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: you hadn't seen before. I think that I think the
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Rocky had used it, and then obviously Stanley used it
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: as mister Kubrick used it in The Shining to create
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: a veil as well. But you were the first to
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: kind of make it a character, which was again very
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: off putting, especially with his John's music.
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, No. It was.
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: The combination of the music, the camera, the moving the story,
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: the you know, the lurking Michael Myers who never spoke,
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: it's all very you didn't see him as as a person.
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: It was a force and so and I think all
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: of that newness was one of the reasons that the
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: first week it came out it was not like popular,
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: because they didn't have the huge amount of publicity they
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: can invest in a film now.
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  Speaker 3: It just sort of came out and the first week
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  Speaker 3: there were people who came and uh, but not very many.
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  Speaker 4: And everyone thought well, I guess the film is not
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: a success. But the second week more people came, third week,
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: more people. It kept doubling and and I think that
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: was the proof that the the audience appreciated all of
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: this new creepiness that we were able to do with
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: the steady camp. And you know John's music, you know
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: it's off putting five to four meter instead of what
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: you were used to hearing in music. And you know,
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: it was a colbination of all the right things at
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: the right place at the right time.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Now, what were some of your biggest challenges or unexpected
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: surprises when you were filming films like The Thing and
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: Escape from New York.
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: Well, I always look at Escape from New York is
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: one of one of my most intriguing and interesting projects
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: because it was it was It was a world that
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: didn't exist, you know, New York as a prison, and
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: it had its own character, you know, that shabbiness, the
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: desolate you know feeling, and the fact that they had
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: to light things with fires instead of electric lights.
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  Speaker 3: So it was.
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: A creating of an entire world that at the same
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: time was feasible. It was not even though it was
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: in the future, it could be now it could be
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: some parts of a town, you know, so it was
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: unidentifiable in that way for an audience, and yet it
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: was a completely you know, bizarre world. So I think
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: that was a lot of the interest that appealed to
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: it for me, creating that that dystopian world.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: Now, when you worked on what I mean, when you've
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: worked on Back to the Future, how did you pivot
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: your your your technique, your working style when it came to,
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: you know, thesual effects. Because visual effects had just started
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: to really come into their own. And I mean obviously
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: the Star Wars films and other things like that, but
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: Back to the Future had a good amount of visual effects.
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  Speaker 2: How did you approach that was was that kind of
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: your first big visual effects heavy film or was there
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  Speaker 2: one prior to that?
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  Speaker 4: Well, visual effects were creeping in, and early on we
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: were lucky to do one to have the experience of
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: creating some kind of illusion, and then over a period
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: time they became more and more important till now the
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: effects drives the movie all these superhero movies and stuff.
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: But I didn't know.
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: I think that one of the things I always felt
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: was that I didn't want to get Ty into a
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: particular kind of move.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: Be We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: I did want to become the adventure the romantic comedy guy,
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: the whatever. So I deliberately would take different kinds of films,
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: even though I was offered a better job on another
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: horror film.
• 20:26
  Speaker 3: I would look for something different so that I could.
• 20:31
  Speaker 4: Learn, learn and experience different techniques of storytelling, so that
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't be doing the same thing over and over
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: again darkness that is horrifying or whatever. And so I've
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: always looked for different things. And I've always enjoyed, as
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: I say, the magic the creating of different worlds and
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: stories and stuff and uh. And so I've always been
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: drawn to different kinds of films that, you know, that
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: that had interesting potential, new techniques, new visual effects techniques,
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: new storytelling techniques and all of that. It's it's I think,
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: what keeps one alive and fresh in the business as
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: opposed to you know.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: I I know.
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: Friends who have done seven or eight years of the
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: same TV show and they and they say, you know,
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: it was it was great at first, and then and
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: then it became the same thing over and over. But
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: they kept offering me more money or something, and so
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: I caved into it as a job. And I I've
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: always hated to get into that position where you're doing
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: it just as a job. It has to be creatively involving.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Now, you you had a very unique experience with Back
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: to the Future because you got to do something that
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: a lot of cinematographers would love to be able to do,
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: which is sometimes go back six weeks and reshoot things
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: and maybe shoot things differently than you might have shot
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: the first time, because it's you know, obviously the lore
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: is not the lore, but the facts are that they
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: shot six weeks of Back to the Future with Eric
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: Stoltz in the in the starring role, and then Robert
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: and Steven and everyone pulled back and said, no, I
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: think we need Michael J.
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: Fox.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: So you had to go back and shoot a lot
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: of those scenes again. Did you change some of your
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: lighting techniques or lighting style? Did you like take that opportunity?
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: What was that first of all, when they said that
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: to you, what did you say, Well.
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: You know, sometimes we'll go back and reshoot a sane
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: ch I'm lobbie. For a particular ular reason, the director
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: didn't like the performance. The special effect didn't work. They
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: they they've changed the location. It's no longer a factory
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: now it's a you know, somebody's bedroom or whatever.
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: So in those cases.
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: You you do something different. But when we looked at
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: the first six weeks of.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: Back to the Future.
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: And the opportunity was there to reshoot as much of
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: it as I wanted, I said to Stephen, what do
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: you think? And he came to me and he said, listen,
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: I love the way it is and it looks don't
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: change anything. Do it exactly the same way, and we'll
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: just improve certain aspects. So I I was very flattered
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: by that. And so very often we would look at
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: a little clip. We we would have these pieces of
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: film that would be three or four frames.
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: And a little viewer and we could put.
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: The film in there and look at it and and
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: then say, yes, it's okay. We had a light back
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: there with that over there, you know, and and we
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: would recreate it.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: You know, the same way.
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: Because apparently Stephen involved and everybody loved it.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: That's awesome. Now I have to ask you the the fire,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: the fire, the higher fire marks that are left by
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: the dolore, And that was practically shot and compositive afterwards. Correct.
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah, in some cases it was practically shot right at
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: the locate and the the shot upping wall the street
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: in at Universal when when the when Doc is jumping
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: around and.
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: He retried it the.
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: And I think that's one of those things that you know,
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: those of us in the business we can look at
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: and say, oh, look at that they composited the fire
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: in there. It's not very good, or oh they did
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: a great job.
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: Whatever.
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: But one of the things I think is anytime you
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: can do it practically, there's a certain feeling that the
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: audience will have that they're seeing it actually happen, no
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: matter how good the CG animation or whatever. And in
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: the case of the fire tracks, they had built a
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: special advice who was a dolly with two nozzles spaced
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: apart the distance of the tires, and a big tank
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: of flammable fuel and they would push it along and
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: it would lay down these streaks of flammable liquid, and
• 26:13
  Speaker 4: then they would pull the cart out of frame, light
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: the fire and it would burn. And it'd been up
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: and and it was it was awesome to watch, but
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: also we knew that it was going to look like
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: what it was supposed to be, burning pirate tracks. So
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: so sometimes you don't want to do it by the
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: so called easy way, you know, just turning it over
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: to some effects guy who will work on a computer.
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: So you know, sometimes you want to do it as
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: practically as you can and devise.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: A way to do it. And it was an ingenious solution.
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: Did you speed it up in the camera?
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: No, we we thought at regular speed so that it looked,
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: you know, look real. So the flame movement was sir, Yeah.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: I didn't think about it. I was only thinking about
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: the Really, I didn't even think about the flame movement.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: You're absolutely right. Now, another film that you did, who
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: framed Roger Rabbit technically must have been enormous because no
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: one had ever done anything like that before, and not
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: that way, at least not with that many characters and
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: things before. How did you light for a cartoon that
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: wasn't yet drawn into the frame.
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: Well, we were concerned at first because it was cell
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: animated and it was painted on the back, so it's
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: flat characters, and nobody had done three dimensional lighting on
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: flat characters before. It had always been if if you
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: look at Disney films, there's a suggestion of shadows in
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: the paint.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: But it always looks flat.
• 28:16
  Speaker 4: And for that reason, the lighting has to be very
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: flat and even, and the camera work has to be
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: wide in the stationary you're not in those days. You
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: weren't able to pan and follow a composited character. And
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: so when we were hid in the rules, we said, well,
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: those are the rules we were going to break, and.
• 28:40
  Speaker 6: We we devised ways and I lem and Ralston was
• 28:47
  Speaker 6: great in coming up with a technique where they could
• 28:50
  Speaker 6: take the flat animation and then add highlights and shadows
• 28:55
  Speaker 6: that matched the lighting.
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: So I was not restricted to flat lighting, but could
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: do it just in a way that looked, you know, normal,
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: so to speak. And it made it much easier to
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: create this world. And then knowing that they were going
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: to add these characters and so that they they would
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: blend in and it worked very well. One of my
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: favorite projects ever.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I wish they would have made the sequel.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: I wish they would have made the sequel.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: You know, they had tried to.
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: I had ideas for the sequel, but they could never
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: get everyone to.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: Agree unfortunately.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a I mean for everyone listening, if
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: you haven't seen Roger Rabbit. You have to watch it
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: because it's it's unheard of. I mean, Disney, Warner Brothers
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: and a million other companies gave license to their best
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: characters all for one movie. And that's just yeah, it's
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: a miracle that even came, that even happened. We'll be
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: right back after a word from our sponsor. And now
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: back to the show.
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: Well, that famous standing shot where they all burst in
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: from Tunetown into the factory. You look there and there's
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: almost any character that's ever been in an animated cartoon
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: or world, with the exception of one character.
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: Who Popeye.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: You're right, Popeye wasn't in that.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: She that what's her name? Fletcher?
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: Anyway, she would allow Popeye to be used in this
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: movie with all these other people, and as a result,
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: everybody else is famous and worris Popeye, you know, kind
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: of an oversight in my estimation.
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: No, when you when you approach working with the directre
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: what is what is? How do you approach pre production
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: with the director and how should a cinematographer approach pre
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: production with the director?
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: In your opinion, well, I think it all starts with,
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: of course, reading the script, visualizing. In my mind, which
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: is separate from anybody else at that point visualizing what
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: that story looks like. The location can be described on
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: the page, but may not at all be where you're
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: actually shoot it, or what the production designer comes up with,
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: or how the director visualizes it. So I know that
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: early on in my career, when I was doing these
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: low budget shows, I would take the script and I would,
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: you know, make notes on it, and I and the
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: opp sit the facing page, the back of the previous page,
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: which is all black. I would draw a little sketches
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: of how the camera could move, or where the light
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: might come from or something. And then I would be
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: discouraged because as we would then begin preproduction, we would
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: find out that we were being driven to look at
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: the location that was a factory. And I would say, well,
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: let's that's odd. Hearing the script it says restaurant, and
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: I had seen it in the kitchen. Oh no, no, no,
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: they couldn't get the restaurant. But also they thought it
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: would be scarier in the factory, and oh okay. So
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: all my thought process and work and that's a little bit,
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: it was all for naught. So I began to less
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: and less make notes beforehand and learn to absorb, you know,
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: to the director and say, how do you see this
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: scene or this whole movie? Is it bright and cheery,
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: is it dark and gloomy?
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: Is it whatever?
• 33:09
  Speaker 4: And then we would go to locations, and as we
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: found out which location we were actually gonna shoot in,
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: then I could start to visualize the camera and.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: Lighting and all that kind of stuff. So it was
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: an evolving process and it still is. I still I
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: like to give.
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: The production designer of freedom to create, you know, and
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: not go and say make sure that this place has
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: plenty of windows for lighting.
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: Right, So now you're.
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: Imposing something on his creativity. So a lot of times
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: I will I will wait to see what's happening. Look
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: at the production designer's plans. In all bigger shows, they
• 33:58
  Speaker 4: will build a post a model.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: Of the set, you know, out of cardboard, but.
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: Just so you can see the space and so forth.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: And I'd look at them and say, you know, it
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: would be good, is if we could put one more
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: window over here, because then that would light it because
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: the scene is that he goes over to the safe
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: and opens it up and we can light Okay, that's
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: a good idea. So you hope that that everybody will
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: respond to your wishes to the same way that I
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: would respond to everybody else's desires and creative instincts.
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: Now, you were able to shoot two films with mister
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Steven Spielberg. The first one still one of my favorite
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: films of the nineties. Again, one of those films I
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: grew up with and absolutely adored. A Hook that came out.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: It was so beautiful. You know, you go into the
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: world of Hook and you just are lost in this
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: rabbit hole that you kind of go down. How did you.
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: First of all, no, that was that was Alice in Wonderland.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: No, I know, I know, I know, I don't I know.
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: I'm mixing.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: I'm mixing my my favorite Yes, but how did you
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: approach lighting such a massive set? Because it was like
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: I remember seeing behind the scenes that I talked to
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Jim Hart who's been on the show, and everybody was
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: visiting that set. It was like what it was the
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: place to visit. It was like the tourist attraction of
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Hollywood at the time. Everybody wanted to see this massive set.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: How did you approach these large, wide shot, you know,
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: action sequences with that massive set.
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: Well, you know what it was. It's one of those
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: things because I had people come to the dp's who
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: looked at it and said, oh my gosh, Hugh, I
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: would have no idea how to light this.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: I believether did I.
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: But I didn't want I didn't want anyone to know
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: that because you know, you it's like painting. Painting with
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: the light is the cliche metaphor. And so you say, well, okay,
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: here's the big giant set with the pirate ship and
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: the towel and everything.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: How would I light it?
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: And you don't look at it from an overall standpoint,
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: You say, well, okay, it's some overall light to from
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: the overhead butt that surface back there looks really interesting.
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: Where can I put a light out of frame that
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: will light that? Well, those windows are really interesting. So
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: it's a bits and pieces and bits and pieces. And
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: I would go and look at this at and make notes,
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: you know, before it was finished, so that when it
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: came time to break the lighting, you know, there was
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: at least some kind of a plan.
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: But and and a lot of it was.
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: Stylistic from the standpoint of what Stephen wanted originally never Land,
• 37:23
  Speaker 4: and the island was supposed to be shot. They were
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: thinking in the Caribbean, somewhere ye Real Island, or maybe Hawaii.
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: But then Stevens started to think, no, the film really
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: should be more theatrical. It shouldn't look too real. If
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: it looks real, it's going to take away from the imagination.
• 37:56
  Speaker 4: And so he opted to do everything on sets that
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: were constructed, some of them at MGM or or Sony,
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: someone at Universal. And the thing that came out of
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: that was how to you know, give a sense of
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: reality but also a little bit of a theatrical feeling
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: and imagination. And so he and I began looking at
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: various movies that were jungles, that were lit, locations that
• 38:40
  Speaker 4: were artificial, and as we looked there were particular ones.
• 38:48
  Speaker 4: I think it was Tarzan, the early version of first one,
• 38:54
  Speaker 4: where it was obvious that it was lit. And he said,
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: notice how it's all hot back light just hitting the leaves,
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: but the front is always no matter which way you look,
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: the front is always pleasant. So maybe we can do something.
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: I said, yeah, it's perfect. So that's what we did.
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: We would, you know, create overexposed light so that it
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: didn't look too controlled.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: On the jungle, but then.
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: Properly light our heroes, and it gave that theatrical sort
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: of feeling to it.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Now I have to ask you, what is it like
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: collaborating with Steven Spielberg as a director and director of photography,
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Because I know you'd worked with him on other projects
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: that he had produced, Back to the Future and so on,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: but this was your first time working with him in
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: that creative you know, relationship. What was that like?
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: Well, I'd always appreciated Steven from the first things we
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: saw at Johns and so forth.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 40:10
  Speaker 4: The fact that he was great and still is a
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: great visual storyteller. He knows how to use the camera
• 40:20
  Speaker 4: and also stage actors stage action so that it tells
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: you exactly what you want to know or need to
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: feel at any particular.
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: Moment in the film.
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: So I had always appreciated that about him and was
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: just delighted when I had the opportunity to work with
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: him and the experience first hand his amazing talent for
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: doing that visual storytelling and.
• 40:53
  Speaker 3: So in Hook I.
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: Because I think that was always my approach, even from
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: low budget days. I would try to talk directors into
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: some kind of interesting angle that would combine elements of
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: action or whatever. And it was frustrating because many of
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: them thought of of the camera as a device for
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: recording actors talking.
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: And then the explosion.
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: And and it was it was because of that frustration
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: that I, you know, I was delighted when I had
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: a chance to work with Stephen and and give me
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: had a chance to work with Stephen and experienced his creativity,
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: but also realized that I was encouraged to add to
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: it a suggestion of embellishment, you know, a little different something.
• 42:07
  Speaker 4: And so I very much appreciated that opportunity to work
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: with it, and was delighted when I was invited to
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: do Jurassic Park, which is.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: One of the one of the you know.
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: His most successful movies, but also one of the most
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: eventually stimulating.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: I think, yeah, without question, I was going to get
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: to next was going to be Jurassic Park. I mean,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: there's you know, the story goes that the fild Tippet
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: was going to do a stop motion originally for the dinosaurs,
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: and they had gone down that path quite a bit
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: until Ilm, some ruffians over at ILM said hey, wait
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: a minute we could do something, and they showed it,
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: and then Steven said we're going to go this way.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: When he had that comment cause that this is such
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: a pivotal moment in film history. This is the first
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: time a Digitt character is is inserted into a film
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: in a massive way, not one little character like they
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: did in Young Sherlock Holmes.
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: I remember, very realistic way, which was the challenge. Obviously,
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: nobody's really all of our images of dinosaurs are you know,
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: skeletons and museums and artists, right, and so the fact
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: that we were going to try to create these dinosaurs
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: that that that had a realistic look that you could
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: believe they were actually existing in the world of the characters.
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: So that was that was a great deal of challenge,
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: but satisfaction and and it was it was fascinating because
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: I had started on the film prepping when when it
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: was going to be the top motion, and then at
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: a meeting right in the beginning, in the middle of
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: prep did Ennis Mirror and from il M came to
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: the meeting and said, you know, we think we can
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: create these creatures in the computer and Steven said, fabulous, Liver,
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: show me, show me where you got and they said, well,
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: we don't have anything yet. Well we're working on it.
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: I'll be right back. And he came back a week
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: later and said, well, here's what we have, and it
• 44:38
  Speaker 4: showed the famous walking t WREXH skeleton that was very
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: convincing because it had a sense of weight, you know,
• 44:48
  Speaker 4: because of Phil Tippet's great animation, the tail move meant,
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: the the way the.
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: Head bob do.
• 44:56
  Speaker 4: All of that was was something that was a result
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: of the work you could do on the computer. You
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: with stop motion, you have to photograph it and then
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: you look at the film and say, oh, the head
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: didn't bob write or look kirky, or it turn too
• 45:14
  Speaker 4: quickly over it and it doesn't look like it has weight.
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: And you know, with a computer you can do the
• 45:21
  Speaker 4: animation and then look at it immediately and say, oh, yeah,
• 45:24
  Speaker 4: the head movement is too fast, and you can go
• 45:29
  Speaker 4: back and slow it down, and then you can fix
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: the way the tail is moving, and then the way
• 45:34
  Speaker 4: the body moves up and down, and you know, and
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: it's a process of being able to develop and refine
• 45:40
  Speaker 4: the animation as it's being done, and it's it's been
• 45:46
  Speaker 4: one of the greatest sort of unseen aspects of computer
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: animation is you know, as an audience, you see it
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: when it's finished, but when you are, you know, making it,
• 46:02
  Speaker 4: you look at shots and scenes and say, oh, yeah
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: that works, oh that doesn't, and and you can fix it.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: How did you how did were you a part of
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: lighting it digitally because that was the first time you
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: were there was even digital lighting, like when they were
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: lighting so because the t rex has to match your
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: lighting on set and so on, right.
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: Lighting in the computer is a completely different technology technique.
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: We deal with physical lights that produce a certain amount
• 46:37
  Speaker 4: of light and a certain spread.
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: And distance, and.
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: And they can create light that doesn't doesn't obey.
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: The rules of physics. So what what I did was.
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: Anytime there's going to be a computer animated Dinostaur, we
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: took one of the animatronic ones of one of the
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: puppets and put it in that place, and I would
• 47:06
  Speaker 4: light it and then they would replicate that look in
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: the computer. So I was lighting the computer stuff practically
• 47:17
  Speaker 4: on the set and they were, you know, making that
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: happen in the computer.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Were they using the reflector balls at that point? Yet,
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: like that big ball that reflects all the lights so
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: they can have kind of reference of where the lights
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: are coming from at that point, and not yet.
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: It was sort of being developed at the time, and
• 47:41
  Speaker 4: you know, when they first brought it out, I thought, well,
• 47:46
  Speaker 4: what's this all about? And then it became evident, Yo, yes,
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: I see they're using a way to capture the information
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: about where the lights are coming from and so forth,
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: not just the intensity. And they're not just painting with
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: the u with the light like you might do and
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: photoshop or something.
• 48:11
  Speaker 7: They were in fact finding where to put their lights,
• 48:17
  Speaker 7: even though their digital lights and don't exist, finding ways
• 48:21
  Speaker 7: to replicate.
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: What we were doing. Now.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: You also shot a film called Apollo thirteen, which is
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: another one of my favorites, Ron Howard's masterpiece film of
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: some very interesting cinematography techniques in that film, because you
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: guys were wanted to get weightlessness in a way that
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: no one had ever shot it before. And from what
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: I seen this and seen behind the scenes, there was
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: something called the vomit comet where they would take the actors.
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: They built a set on inside of an airplane and
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: would go up and down in that little moment when
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: they would drop. You would have like forty five seconds
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: or a minute or something like that of weightlessness.
• 48:59
  Speaker 4: Breaking twenty three seconds?
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: So were you were you on that vombit comet?
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: No, sadly I went on another one later.
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so I've experienced weightlessness without spending the billion dollars
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: and Jeff made those says, yes, done for his four
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: minutes of weightless. I've I'd experienced it for free. But
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: but it was I'd look at Apollo thirteen as an
• 49:35
  Speaker 4: opportunity because Ron Howard came to me and said, you know,
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: I've never done special effects, so I'll.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: Be looking for guidance and stuff.
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: And so we we watched actual weightless footage that had
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: been done in the early.
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: Moon attempts.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: Will be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: and now back to the.
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: Show, and said, well, what are the characteristics that make
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: it look real? And it was things like the the
• 50:18
  Speaker 4: the capsule would always rotate in space slowly, so that
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: the sunlight wasn't always on one side. It would evenly
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: heat and in the cool because the extremes from the
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: sunside to the shadow side were extreme, and so there
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: would be this capsule rotation. The there was the wait list,
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: the the fact that our perception of people watching on
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: TV was the fact that the camera, which was a
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: video camera, was really just floating itself.
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: And there was a little movement in it. So we
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: looked for those kinds.
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: Of of artifacts, you might say, and then I said, well,
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: how can I replicate that? So the capsule we had
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: was stationary on a stage. So I devised this way
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: with a moving light on the end of a crane
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: arm and it would move slowly around the capsule, but
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: we would always keep the light aimed into the window.
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: We're using this rock and roll light, and in that way,
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: the lighting inside the capsule was always sort of moving.
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: And you know, it was a case of trying to
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: coordinate that with each set up so that it kind
• 51:56
  Speaker 4: of matched. But it was a subtle, subtle way of
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: saying this capsule was, you know, somewhere else, and the
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: same with you know, various other things we we we
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: created what we called teeter totters. There were a seat
• 52:18
  Speaker 4: on this arm that would move just like a teeter totter.
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: It could's playground thing.
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: And then I had them build the capsules so it
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: could be rotated and hung in any position. So the
• 52:35
  Speaker 4: bottom of the floor was on the but and then
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: the floor would be on the top. And then so
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: what that did was it gave us a chance to
• 52:44
  Speaker 4: move people on these teeter totters in in amongst the
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: seats and they could you know, rise up to the ceiling,
• 52:54
  Speaker 4: touch it and push themselves down and you know a
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: little subtle things like that.
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: That uh, you know, we're not.
• 53:02
  Speaker 4: Big story moments, but they were just the ways the
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: guys had to react. And then we shot a lot
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: of that then with the full figure weightless stuff that
• 53:16
  Speaker 4: they shot going through the tunnel, you know, various little
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: things like that, and the fact that the there's a
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: sequence where they broadcast back to Earth all of the
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: things that they're doing and the problems they're confronting and on,
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: and that was a way of creating this full figured
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: weightlessness and artifacts and the moving light and all that
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: just became secondary second nature to all of the the
• 53:53
  Speaker 4: story and the characters later and in a way that
• 53:58
  Speaker 4: you know, the audience believed they so I'll waitless all
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: the time.
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: It was a wonderful trick. Like you said, you were
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: a magician, and you and Ron working together got that.
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: I didn't think I didn't know about the teeter toatter,
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: that teeter totter, Yeah, because I just thought everything was
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: shot in the vomit comet. I'm like, my god, those
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: poor guys.
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I would have been very aptly name for all
• 54:22
  Speaker 4: of the cruise reaction vomiting all the time.
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: Now, you you recently worked on a new show that's
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: coming out, and I guess I think it's coming out
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: in the in December sometime, which is the Book of
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: Boba Fetu. And I know you can you can't say
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: anything about story, of course, but you got to very quiet.
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: I know that everyone dies at the and I understand,
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: But how did you approach lighting in the volume? Because
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: that's such a new technology. I haven't had a chance
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: to speak to anyone who's actually lit in that volume
• 54:57
  Speaker 2: in where they shot Mandalorian and things. How do you
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: approach lighting in that world?
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: So well, I'm going back Monday to the next season
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: of The Mandalorian Nice and I guess, I guess I'll
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: find out how I did it. But it's it's interesting
• 55:21
  Speaker 4: because the volume is this stage that has a giant
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: dire rum all around it of led screen, a giant
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: TV screen that's twenty five feet high. By seventy five
• 55:36
  Speaker 4: feet across and it wraps around it completely. And so
• 55:41
  Speaker 4: there it brings its own rules how close you can
• 55:45
  Speaker 4: get the camera, how you how you can move it
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: and all. So you have to learn those rules. And
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: then the lighting. You know, you're typically you're lighting a
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: small area in the middle of the stage that is
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: the that that is the the fire lit desert that
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: they're sitting in and tying, or the we have the.
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: One desk inside the.
• 56:10
  Speaker 4: Giant palace that surrounds you that it's on the screen.
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: Uh So it takes a.
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: It takes some real good thought.
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: And I was fortunate to have a crew that had
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: been doing that for a little while who point out,
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: you know, hints and techniques and pre light things. And
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: but they were good because if you go into a
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: situation like that, the high tech, you know, your medialy
• 56:46
  Speaker 4: start looking for how to use it, but how to
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: embellish it, how to find a new technique, you know,
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: And that was that was one of my great challenges,
• 56:56
  Speaker 4: was finding ways to use technology and push it, you know,
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: the next step or in the next quarter of a step,
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: because there are always baby steps in this kind of thing.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: But so so you're lighting basically the center of the
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: of the scene. But when you're so, do you get
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: you are lighting from the actual volume itself, the environment,
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: Like if there's a sunlight there is in the background
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: in the in the volume, there is light coming off
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: there that you get those reflections on the helmets and
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: and things like that correct exactly.
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: And then then you find ways to.
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: Embellish that add a little more sunlight overall. And on
• 57:42
  Speaker 4: the particular this particular volume media you can go up
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: into the rafters the attic of the stage and add
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: lights that will light down and you know, you can
• 57:55
  Speaker 4: put lights off to the side, out of frame of
• 57:59
  Speaker 4: the camera and use that to light the character.
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: So it's it's a very much.
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: This cheeksaw puzzle of every every shot is complicated by
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: the the technology.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: Did you enjoy shooting it? Did you enjoy shooting in
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: the volume?
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, And which is one of the reasons I'm I'm
• 58:27
  Speaker 4: going back is to well, you know.
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: Experience and and follow along as they embellish and improve
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: the system.
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's it's from from season one to mandalorienton
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: now season two and then now a Book of Boba,
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: and now they're going into a third season. I'm assuming
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: their technology is getting better and better and they're learning,
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: you think, because it's it's literally at the it's an
• 58:50
  Speaker 2: infancy essentially, it is.
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 58:54
  Speaker 4: They they started realizing with these big l ed screens
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: they'd been developing for like billboards and displays and rock
• 59:04
  Speaker 4: and roll shows, that you know, there was a use
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: in film, and uh, you know a lot of car
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: driving sequences now are done not by putting a car
• 59:19
  Speaker 4: on a trailer and driving them through town, but by
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: putting led screens, even small portable ones around the stage
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: where the car is and and projecting or rear projecting
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: the the moving environment. So we're now taking it to
• 59:41
  Speaker 4: a big giant leap quite literally into a full stage
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: of that and and finding.
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: Ways to do it.
• 59:53
  Speaker 4: And I as if every time I come back I
• 59:58
  Speaker 4: and I visited.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: Recently, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: They the guys are very excited.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 4: They come up and say, look what we can do now,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: and and you know, and they'll demonstrate some new amazing
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: technique because their their world is all about you know,
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: using and embelloping and improving this this technique of the volume,
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: as it's called, so that there's always something new that
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: can be done, so we're always challenged to learn what
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 4: it is these guys are developing now.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 2: Is there a piece of business advice that you would
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: that you would give up and coming cinematographers that you
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: wish you would have heard early in your career.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: Yes, take up the law.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 4: Interesting, it's easier.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 4: I don't know if it's easier. Yeah, you know what
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 4: I The advice I give a lot of yell filmmakers
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 4: and film students and all.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: Is that that.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 4: There's there's kind of two layers of what we do.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 4: You know, people look at the cinematographer, the director of
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 4: photography as as the person who uses all of this
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 4: technology to create visual imagery on the screen that moves
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 4: an audience to emotional things than.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: Blah blah blah.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 4: But there's also the other side of it, which is
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 4: the what would you call it the management running a crew?
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 4: How do you get the best out of out of
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 4: a crew? How do you involve them? How do you
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 4: make them feel that they're contributing so that they don't
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: just say, oh, well, he didn't like that idea so
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 4: I'm I'm just gonna sit here and wait until he
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 4: tells me what to do. You know, what you want
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 4: is people involved in the in the process so that
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 4: they bring the best of their talents and skills to
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: a pend you can. I always say that that one
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 4: of the things that I try to do is I
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 4: listen to all of these comments. I'll solicit ideas from
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: the crew members and then I just steal the.
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 3: Best ones and and that.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: Way, you know, you can you can get credit for
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 4: being brilliant. But no, I'm of course kidding maybe that
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: that you know, it's such a creative process and there
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: are so many skills, unique skills that don't exist in
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 4: the real world of working in factories and and and
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 4: being an accountant in or whatever. Very unique skills that
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 4: the grips have, and the lighting people have, and and
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: the special effects people have and all that are very
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 4: unique to the film industry, and they are always taking
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 4: ideas from the outside and adapting them to our very
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: unique needs. So one of my bits of advice.
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: Is is to learn to.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 4: Learn to help the project by listening to all of
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: the experts who have these skills, who have ideas, creative
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 4: solutions and present them in a way that they can
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 4: they can become involved, you know, say, you know what
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: what I was hoping to do is get the camera
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: to do this, and the guy moves through this shadow,
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 4: but I see that area where the light would be.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 3: What should we do?
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 4: And you know, it starts somebody thinking, well, I guess
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 4: maybe we could hide it a light, you know, or
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 4: maybe how about if he turns here, you know, and
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 4: it becomes a process of finding the best solution.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: To the storytelling.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 4: You know, it's always about the audience. You can't lose
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 4: side of that. It can't be about you know, I'm
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 4: going to do the coolest thing ever that nobody has
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 4: ever seen before, which might intrigue some of the crew
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 4: around you. But is it the best thing for the
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 4: story we're telling the audience? Is it the best thing
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 4: for the director? Is it trying to inspire him to
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 4: do something or will it restrict him from doing something?
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 4: Or you know, So it's it's about soliciting contribution.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: Being a manager.
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 4: Of of not just people but ideas and inspiration and
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 4: manage creativity and all of that, and being able to
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 4: be able to interpret the story, interpret what the audience
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 4: needs to see at any particular moment, and how do
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 4: you give that to him? And uh, you know a
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: lot of times did. The director becomes a great source
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 4: so that. But I've also worked on shows where you
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 4: know the director wants to dumb it down because they
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 4: understand it easier that way. And the challenge then becomes
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 4: how do you how do you talk the director into
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: doing something that's better for him or her?
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: How how do you.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 4: Convince the actor by standing over here, you're not restricting
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 4: his performance, You're giving his character a certain you know,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 4: whatever it's needed. So it's it's it's about it's about
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 4: learning how to coordinate so much of the stuff towards
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 4: you know, if it's easy to look at the cinematography
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 4: the way. I heard a Universal executive one day describing
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: someone said, well, what's the cinematographer?
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: What's he do?
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 4: And the executive said, well, he's the guy who lights
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 4: the set. M Well, that's like a fraction of it,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: because you have crew people who light the set. So
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 4: many some of the gaffers I've worked with, in particular
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 4: on The Mandalorian, are brilliant at lighting the set. I
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: could just describe sort of what it should look like
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 4: and walk away and I'll come back and that's what
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: it'll look like. So it's it's not just about lighting
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 4: the set or the guy who operates the camera, because
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 4: we actually have camera operators. It's not not about you know,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: any number of these technical things. It's it's really about
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 4: storytelling and how do you capture the story on film
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 4: in the old dyes and a video now so that
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 4: the audience can experience the story properly.
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: That's an amazing answer to that question, sir, Thank you.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: And I just have a few questions. Ask all of
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: my guests, what is the most fun you've ever had
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 2: on set?
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 4: Oh? I try to have fun all the time. I
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: try to keep it light, you know. It's it's sort
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 4: of paraphrasing that old package that this business is too
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 4: serious to be taken seriously, and and so a lot
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 4: of it is just finding the fun wherever you are.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: Sometimes it's because you're.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 4: Lucky to have a fun crew and you can all
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 4: enjoy doing something exceptional. Other times it's you have to
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 4: try to create the fun because everybody is being beaten
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 4: down by a director or a producer or someone who
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 4: takes it too seriously because they think that's what it
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: should be. It makes them more important. And so it's
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 4: all about trying to have fun. So finding a particular
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 4: film that was well, you know, Ronjo Rapp had great
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 4: deal of that because it was first of all a
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 4: fun movie. Bob Hostin's the actor was exceptionally fun, Mexican,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 4: all of the people were fun.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: And that all enterprises are creating new.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 4: Technology, new storytelling.
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 4: Was a great deal. So I look at Roger Rabbit
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: as being something. Then I was in London for a year.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 4: My favorite sitting in the world. The environment was it
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 4: was like we were in the sticky jungles with.
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: Mister Yeah, like in Jurassic Part Now, Now, what is
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: the lesson that took you the longest to learn, whether
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: in the film industry or in life.
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 3: And I don't know if it took me long.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 4: I was fortunate when I was a kid that raised
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 4: by parents who who got uh but all about doing
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 4: the fun. And then I said that, you know, I
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 4: think fighting the fun and what I do is day
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 4: you know, I mean through this life once so while
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 4: I make miserable and while I listen to miserable people.
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: Uh, you know, I try to you know how.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: Something that can be arc and dreary by finding little fondand.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: That sounds good. Dean, thank you so much for coming
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: on the show. I truly appreciate you taking the time,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: and and thank you for for shooting my childhood. I
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: truly appreciate everything you've done, my friend.
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 4: Well, you know what I've always felt, any time I
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 4: can pass it on or be part of passing it on,
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 4: it's good. So talking to your you know, your participants
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 4: and providing them with insights is It's something that's always
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 4: been very important to me.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: Well, my friend, I truly appreciate you, and I cannot
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: wait to see the Book of Boba Fett. And now
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: now that I know that you're doing the Mandalorian, I
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 2: can't wait to see that season as well. So thank
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: you again, my friend, and safe travels.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 3: Thank you very much. Same to you all right, bybye.
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: I want to thank Dean so much for coming on
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: the show and sharing his journey and dropping his knowledge
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: bombs on the Tribe today. Thank you so much, Dean.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 2: If you want to get links to anything we spoke
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 2: about in this episode, head over to the show notes
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: at Bulletproofscreenwriting dot TV. Forward slash three eighty six. Thank
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: you so much for listening. Guys, as always, keep on
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 2: writing no matter what. I'll talk to you soon.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at bulletproof
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: Screenwriting dot tv.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: The h