Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 770: When Our Body Says No with Christina Kantzavelos

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Episode 770: When Our Body Says No with Christina Kantzavelos · The Trauma Therapist

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Or welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson. My
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mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be human,
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to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer in who
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we are is more important than what we know, and this requires cultivating authenticity,
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genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn more about
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my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com. That's
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the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, all right, So
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five or three two one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast.
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I am very excited to be speaking with Christina Counselvellos. Christina, welcome,
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thank you, thank you so much for having me again. You are welcome.
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So. Christina is a divergent and first generation licensed clinical social worker,
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life coach, writer, and chronic illness warrior. She received both her BA
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and MSW from the University of California, Los Angeles and her MLS from San
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Jose State University. Christina specializes in treating clients with chronic health conditions and trauma.
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Chronic medical conditions often come with significant challenges like fear, anxiety, medical
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PTSD and may interfere with relationships daily function. It's her experience and belief that
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chronic illnesses are often rooted in traumas that can cause a chronic stress, fight
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or flight response, not allowing the body to prioritize healing. Mark Christina,
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welcome back. Before we get going here, share with our listeners where you're
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from originally, and remind everyone where you're currently. Hi. Yeah, again,
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thank you so much for having me, and just a shout out to
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you being an awesome human being. We tried recording this recently, but I
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was in a flare. As is chronic illness. It's such a journey,
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very up and down, and thank you for being willing to re record.
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So Hi everyone. Yeah, my name is Christina and I live in Joshua
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Tree, California. I'm from southern California, but have sort of lived all
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over the state. I mean, well, it's the southern part of the
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state, so yeah, for right now, my home base is in Joshua
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Tree, but I seem to be traveling about half the year, and I'm
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really grateful to have a remote practice that allows me the flexibility to do that.
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So let's remind everyone. Let's start by giving this, giving our listeners
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a kind of a brief overview of what you do and how you got there.
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Sure, yeah, so this was It was not my intention to become
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a therapist who specializes in chronic illness. My past life was in humanitarian work,
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gotten with doctors' up borders and was with other NGOs, and got very
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sick while on contract in Mexico, and I had already had chronic illness the
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majority of my life, however, not to this debilitating degree, and when
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I got back to the States, I was passed around like a hot potato
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before I received proper diagnosis of lime and co infections and mold and so many
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other autoimmune diseases. But it took a while to get properly diagnosed and therefore
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treated, and in the midst of that I was couch bound. I to
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move back in with my parents. I could not physically work. I thought
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I was going to die. It was horrible, and I could not find
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a therapist for the life of me who was doing what I needed. There's
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very few of us specializing in chronic illness. So if you are a therapist
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who has chronic illness, I'm always going to encourage you to consider making this
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your path because so many people need us right now, because mental health is,
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like you mentioned in the bio, you know, in the beginning of
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that bio, it is such it's such a part of this billing process.
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I believe it's part of the reason we get sick, and it's a big
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part of the reason of how we get better. So anyway, yeah,
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I essentially became the therapist I needed at that time, and I love what
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I do. This is that post traumatic growth aspect that so many of us
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talk about. But like, I wouldn't have ended up here without getting sick
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as sick as I did. Rather no, correct me if I'm wrong,
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but because I knew someone who had chronic illness and they didn't know what was
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wrong with her, and oftentimes and correct me I from wrong. Here when
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that happens and there isn't like a diagnosis, people think you're nuts. Oh
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yeah, right, they don't know what's going on. You've got to be
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making it up. Oh, especially because we look okay, right, So
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that's the you know, I mean, apparently you have to have your head,
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you know, your hair comes depletely fallen out to look sick enough to
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carry those diagnoses, and it's just it's very confusing to the to the average
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person because it's it's not linear, right. There will be moments where we
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you know, for all intents and purposes, where we seem okay, and
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then the next moment we're fatigued or experiencing some kind of symptom that doesn't allow
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us to be in the public or to socialize, or to have the capacity
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for anything outside of our room sometimes the hospital. I mean, it's it's
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a bit all over the place. But yeah, so often we hear it's
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all in your head. So many times, right, this is psychosomatic.
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It's all in your head. And I like to say, you know,
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a lot of it it's in our It's in our brain. Really, it's
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a lot of it is in our brain. And not to mention the head's
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not separate from the body. It's you know, these are all connected and
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it's important. That's why I am. I consider myself a holistic therapist because
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I am you know, we're biopsychosocial, spiritual beings and we need to look
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at all of those as we treat. Well said, last time we talked,
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you mentioned an experience you had a psychedelic experience you had, and I
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want to talk about that because I think the way you share that, how
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you went about it, and even some preliminary concerns you had were interesting because
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you kind of worked through them and it was, as I recall, a
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pretty significant experience for you. So walk us through how that came about.
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Yeah, So I had been interested in exploring psychedelics for a long long time.
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However, I was so afraid and you know, it's mostly the unknown.
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It's also because I have something called mass cell activation syndrome, where you
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know, at some point I was allergic to most things in the world that
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I needed an EpiPen on me at all times. So, you know,
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be it psilocybin, ak magic mushroom rooms or something like ayahuasca or anything else
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in between. You know, scared me to an extent because I didn't know
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how I was going to, you know, physiologically respond to that. You're
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not not even not even from a mental health psychological standpoint. So you know,
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I started just doing more and more research and talking to folks, and
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I had met so many people in the chronic illness community who felt like psychedelics
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was really a missing link in their healing journey. It really helped them go
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within process let go of disease in their bodies. And you know, based
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on our other conversations, that is always going to be a goal of mine,
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is how to let go of disease in my body so that it does
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not manifest into anything anything else. And so I started inching closer and closer
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to it years ago, and finally was able to sit with psilocybin first and
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had that was its own profound experience. And I was with a good a
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good friend, and I remember seeing this like in that in that entire experience,
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this dark cloud above me, and it was all of the weight of
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the world. I was. I felt responsible for caring. That's not obviously
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the case, right we know, we know that no one's actually responsible for
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the weight of the world, But that's how it felt. And I'm a
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recovering codependent, you know, EmPATH people pleaser, and so you know that
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is that is the reality for some of us that we feel that way.
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So seeing that and actually removing it off for me was I can't even describe
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it. It was amazing. I noticed a change in my symptoms almost immediately
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after having that experience. And that experience then made me more apt and comfortable
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to explore other other psychedelics and been ere a second. So when you did
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that, was that your initial experience? You know, I had I had
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some experiences with with NDMA, but it wasn't in that perfect It wasn't it
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wasn't in that exact way. But m DMA after that totally changed too.
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Because I had a new lens lens on. I tried m d M a
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like in the in the past when I wasn't super I don't know wise to
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what it could do to our brains and to our bodies. So yeah,
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was it Was it a microdose that you did and we're talking about psilocybin,
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Yes, I did a full I did the full dose. Yeah, I
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had actually microdos prior to that, just to sorry, I forgot to mention
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that, just to test it out to make sure my body would do okay,
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and it did. And who were the people that were quote unquote guiding
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you were there with you, So that was not guided by anyone but someone
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who's very familiar with with them. So it was just it was just a
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friend. And you know, of course I'm always going to recommend that you
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do it with someone who can guide you, of course. And now this
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was again many years ago, and now psilocybin is becoming you know, sort
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of more commonplace and conversations, and we're seeing that it's you know, en
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route to becoming legal pretty much in this country. So this dark cloud that
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showed up, I mean, sounds really intense. You also said it was
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kind of moved or you moved it off. How could that happen? It's
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so bizarre to explain, right, because imagine it's like this, you're kind
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of lucid dreaming to some to some extent, But it was for me and
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my experience with all the psychedelics I have been able to sit with so far,
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it has been this. It's been this feeling. I'm not seeing something
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in front of me. It's this feeling and I'm creating almost this image in
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my brain to go with it, if that makes any sense. So it
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was this feeling like, wow, Okay, I've been holding this weight above
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me for so long and it is not mine to carry anymore. And that
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was extremely powerful and empowering at the same time. Well, I think I
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said this last time, I'm want to say it again. Who knows to
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you, man, this stuff scares. I'm scared. Scared. I don't
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like to you know, how did you get up enough courage to do it?
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Quite frankly, Quite frankly, I you know, it's one of those
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who just kind of got to jump and trust and really trust that there's you
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know, no such thing as quote unquote a bad trip. That's what I
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kept reading over and over again. No matter what kind of trip you have,
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what kind of journey you have, there's going to be wisdom gained from
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it. And that's that's exactly it. It definitely you know, I can't
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promise anything to anyone, and I have to say that, you know,
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always check in with your practitioners before you consider sitting with anything. And I'm
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always going to recommend sitting with someone who is knowledgeable and understands this. But
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I, yeah, it wasn't as bad as I assumed it was going to
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be. Right. I made it out to be something so much, so
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much more terrible and scary. And ultimately, this is just our sub it's
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our subconscious asking us to process things in a way that feels so much more
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gentle and understanding. It gives you this objective lens that looking at previous traumas
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and things that are essentially holding me back in life, things that you didn't
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realize you're you're caring. Literally, Yeah, so this is interesting. So
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we have here your own experience and how it impacted you and also how it
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informed your practice as a therapist. And also too, this was kind of
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like a preliminary experience to what a more intense guided session. Yeah, I
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event like I said, eventually it allowed for me to sort of to sit
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with Ayahuasco, which was that was the one I was most afraid of,
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right because we're not just hearing of people having hallucinations. We're hearing of people
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having GI concerns, vomiting and diarrhea and so forth. And you're like,
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Okay, wow, this is going to be awful. It's gonna be a
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horrendous experience. But you're also hearing about people coming, you know, coming
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out of it feeling like a different literally a different person. And you know,
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I heard enough of those stories. Those are the stories I focused on,
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you know, who who benefited from this and how and also just understanding.
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There's various podcasts on there explaining the science behind you know, psilocybin and
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ayahuasca, and that was important. It was important for me to listen to
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that as well to understand exactly what it was doing to my brain and my
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body. It's you know, it's allowing for various parts of my brain that
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aren't usually that active to communicate with one another. And it's allowing me again,
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same thing, to process things from the past in a way, in
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a much more objective manner, understanding it from a different lens, and I
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mean the most wild part, right, there's more, There needs to be
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more research around this. Of course, is that my diagnosis of PTSD I
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no longer met criteria for after sitting with ayahuasca. My anxiety disorder and my
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panic disorder are inexistent at this point. Yeah, it's wow, it's wild,
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it is. I didn't know I could feel this way afterwards. Yeah,
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oh no, it's the That's what I want to you know, share
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if it's you know, if it's in alignment, and of course, again,
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if your practitioners give you the green light and it's okay, I mean
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I went, you know, I went somewhere where you know, it's legal,
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and there are practitioners who've been doing this for many, many, many
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years and could walk me, could walk me through the entire process of sitting
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with that. You know, there are Native American churches in the US where
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it's legal to sit with ayahuasca, and you know, if you're going to
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do that, just make sure you do your due diligence, your research,
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that you feel comfortable with whoever you sit with, and that you know a
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big part and this is you know, part of the work I do is
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integration, a psychedelic integration, So prepping and then and then working to integrate
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what wisdom we received, what information received, and how we can apply it
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to our daily life. Sometimes it's so profound and it makes so much sense
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at the moment, and then we get back to the real world and we're
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like, wait, how how do these two things fit right? Because it's
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too as you know, it's essentially we're lifting the veil, and it's two
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different worlds, two different dimensions. So, you know, being able to
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sit with you know, my own my own therapist and some of the people
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from the retreat was extremely helpful in processing and understanding what I went through.
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How did how long ago was that for you? The ayahuasco So the first
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time was in January, and then I did a three nights day on a
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farm in Costa Rica in uh It was February, so the first time I
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sat with it was again too. It was more like I'm gonna They allowed
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me to microdose, which was so amazing to just initially see how my body
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responded to it. And I also wanted to be somewhere where, you know,
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I was in the States. There's a hospital nearby. God forbid.
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I don't respond well because but the fear is real, the fear like what
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you're describing. I mean, I've been with that fear for so long,
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and I remember that that, you know, eventually, I think an hour
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into the microdose, I want to say that's when I took the rest of
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the cup because I realized I actually was fine. I felt I felt calm.
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But by the end of it, I just remember thinking, Wow,
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I wish I would have done this when I was so much younger because of
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what I was able to process. I also remember saying aloud, this was
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equivalent to ten years of therapy in one sitting. And I don't say that
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lightly. And I've talked to numerous people who would you know who also share
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the same sentiment with their experience, just so much process, so much understood.
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It was profound. Did how had these experiences informed the work you're doing?
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So the big you know, in gaining this new lens and understanding,
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like, Okay, I'm going to go a little bit all over the place.
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That's maybe I've read it, but I sat I did the Pasha retreat.
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For those who aren't familiar, that's a ten day silent meditation retreat.
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They're donation based, they're all over the world. They're amazing. I remember
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when I was first learning about the pashna and ayahuasca. I was maybe I
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don't know, nineteen at the time or something, and I knew I had
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numerous people who knew numerous people who had done both. And I remember on
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Wikipedia learning about the dark Knight of the soul and two ways to get to
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that are through the pashna and through ayahuasca. And I just thought, Okay,
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I'm going to try I'm going to try the passa first. That sounds
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a lot less scary, which is ironic because some people would argue ten days
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of silence is a lot scarier, and so so in Vipasta, I mean,
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I learned so much about myself. I gained so much understanding that was
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also profound in its own way. However, with ayahuasca, I really it's
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like someone bestowed this new perspective onto me, like I was given new glasses,
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if you will to understand that. And this may sound woo woo,
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and that's okay, this is my this is how I'm relating to now.
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But what I'm saying is everything is divine, and everything happens for us,
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not to us, and we don't understand often at the time what that means.
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And I'm not trying to use toxic positivity in this. Something can can
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suck and be divine at the same time. That's ultimately what I realized.
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Like I'm still moving through life with chronic illness. Like like we said last
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time, we you know, we didn't get to air that because I was
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just I knew I was out of it. My brain fog was immense,
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and some days are hard for me, they're really challenging, but I understand
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there's wisdom in my challenging hours and my challenging days. Whereas before it was
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just like this, not entirely, but there was more of a like victim
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mentality that I sort of went through the world with it to a degree,
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and I see that that's that's gone. Now, that's that's entirely I will
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not give chronic illness or anything else power over my life. And how I
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go about it, I refuse. It's not like this is this is my
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life. I'm responsible for it, and I love it, and I'm so
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grateful that I even exist. Yeah, let me just pause here for a
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moment to bankers. We're speaking with Christina Cancelbelos back in a few seconds.
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The thing that really strikes me about you, Christina, and it has in
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our previous conversation. You have this very, uh kind of grounded, empowering
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presence. You know, you're not sugar coating anything. There's an acceptance of
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challenges of life, but also an ability to uh look at it for what
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it is. And I would imagine that that is very empowering for a lot
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of your clients. Yeah, I hope, I hope so. And you
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know what I was, you know, I hope to bring that that wisdom
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to every session, right, And I also realize the deeper I go within
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and consistently like I'm doing work on myself, the further I can I can
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take my clients right into their bodies, into their psyche, into their minds,
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into so me doing this work is imperative I believe in being a successful
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therapist. I'm going to kind of put you on the spot here. Can
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you give us an example? And granted everyone's different, but sure, the
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clients who come to you with chronic illness, why are they showing up?
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Give us an example of why someone might show up to work with you.
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Sure, so, one reason would be they don't have to give me subtitles
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on what they're going through. That's a big one. So even when I
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was really moving through some of the hardest parts of my own chronic illness,
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the therapist I was finding, I would say like a fourth and sometimes more
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than that would be spent with me explaining a symptom or a diagnosis or literally
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having to google it for them so they could understand, and even then they
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couldn't really get it. Not that I would ever want or wish anyone to
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understand this or get this, but the fact that my clients can just jump
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into things with me, we don't have to stop for them to explain anything,
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just makes therapy, in my opinion, that much more effective, it's
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like and that's and I've heard that time and time again. So just having
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that understanding, like, oh, she's not just chronic illness literate, she's
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she's an actual like warrior, spoony advocate if you will. And so that's
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that's a big part of the reason people find me. The other thing is
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that I really try to get to the root cause again of disease, and
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I am trum Yeah, so I'm traum informed, I'm trauma trained, em
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DR constructed awareness, various modalities, but at the end of the day,
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you know, we're here to go within to understand when and why the body
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began saying no and processing and understanding that in addition, understanding why they've been
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in fight or flight for a majority of their lives, because I get like,
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I've yet to have anyone come to with chronic illness who's not in a
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stuck in a stress response or fight or flight response. And again those other
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f's are freeze response and a fawning response. People pleasing, overachieving, overworking,
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being being the person that takes care of everything all of the time,
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giving one hundred and ten percent at work and in their families and everywhere else.
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So it's it's understanding why, why why these are trauma responses. And
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the other thing is I really focus on neural retraining, so again based on
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neuroplasticity, just as psychedelics are also you know, you know, the reason
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they affect us in this positive way is because they allow our brains to become
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more plastic and more yeah, so that we can that we can understand and
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take take on more right essentially without having having that fear trauma response, that
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we can look at things a bit more objectively. Same with neural retraining,
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it's basically convincing our brains that we are indeed safe, there's no tiger running
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after us. And so for me working with clients, that's the most important
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thing we have to take care of first getting them into a state of homeostasis
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so then we can bring in those trauma modalities, because the last thing I
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want to do is further disregulate them. The goal in all, at least
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therapy for me and my clients is it's returning back to yourself because so many
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of us have been outside of our bodies. Our bodies have been really scary.
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They have a lot of scary symptoms and they've landed us in the hospital
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and they've made us feel really weird and bad and YadA YadA YadA. So
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how can we safely return back to the body so that we can now process
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what got us out of the body in the first place. Yeah, man,
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I love that, and I really like the way you but you know,
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you said kind of uncovering, we're discovering when the body said no,
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We're started to say, that's a realiant, I think a profound statement.
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Say more about that. Yeah, so when we're not like, there's so
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much to say about it, but essentially when we have been in a trauma
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response, right, So let's just say like we were the parentified child,
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we had to take care of things in the home, or at least felt
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the pressure and the responsibility too, and that was that's how we survived.
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We or maybe we didn't want to ruffle any feathers so we got the best
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grades, or we were so well behaved. I mean, there's that there's
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a you know, a million ways this could have played out for someone.
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I'm just giving. I'm just giving an example of the child who said said
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yes to everything and kept their guardians as happy as possible and continue to do
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that through life, never actually really checking in with themselves to see, hey,
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is this something I want to do? And even if they did check
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in with themselves, you know, that was really scary because if I say
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no to this, Am I going to get in trouble? Am I not
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going to get invited again somewhere? And the list goes on and on.
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So ultimately, when we're constantly saying yes when it's really a no, our
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bodies, like, let's just say we're in a really toxic relationship or toxic
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work environment. I know I was, our bodies will start saying no for
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because they're trying to get us into a safe place where we can heal.
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So I always tell my clients, like, the goal is that your body
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never has to say no for you again, that you are always a step
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ahead of it, that you can say no first. And that's a really
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scary thing, including again including for myself something I'm recovering from because that was
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my trauma response and that's how I'm so grateful that I survived because of it,
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but I'm not thriving with it in adulthood. So it's something we have
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to unlearn. I feel like I don't know about you, Like so much
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of therapy is really unlearning than it is and it is learning from your experience.
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Are most of the clients you see how they experienced trauma? Is that
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at the root cause of this disease we're talking about here. I have yet
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to have someone with chronic illness that I know on a personal level or professionally
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who does not have an experience with trauma. And you know, we think
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of I just want to say, like, we think of traumas right for
29:08
anyone listening, and I'm sure you know you've explained this before, but we
29:11
think of those big tea traumas and we forget like the big ones, right,
29:17
war I think is one of those bigs on when we think of childhood
29:19
traumas sexual, physical abuse, not having enough food on the table, like
29:25
things that are more on a physical level. But there's also those those little
29:30
tea traumas that add up as well, like not making a sports team or
29:34
a dance team, or not getting invited to a birthday party. Like to
29:40
us as adults that may not seem like a big deal, but as kids
29:44
that can be really traumatizing because you are not part of the you're not being
29:49
invited to a party, you're not part of the pack. That means that
29:52
your survival maybe on the line. I mean that's how a child's brain literally
29:56
interprets a situation like that. So again, as adults looking back that you
30:02
know, we I wasn't invited a birthday, part of that may not seem
30:03
like a big deal. However, it likely was traumatic in the body and
30:07
if you didn't have a parent or guardian really helping you understand or process that,
30:14
that may remain in the body as disease. Yeah. Yeah, well
30:18
really well said there. So all right, how are you working with with
30:26
your clients now? Is it? Is it online? Are you offering exclusively
30:30
private therapy, group stuff, trainings, et cetera. What, Yeah,
30:33
there's sure. I am doing one on one therapy. I do facilitate a
30:40
free Chronic Illness Lime Disease circle once a month that's open to the community.
30:45
Anyone. Anyone can intend and it's levely It's an empowerment circle. So I'm
30:49
a very solution focused therapist. And that's how this group is too because and
30:56
I say that because anyone listening with chronic illness go on to a lot of
31:00
these Facebook groups, and they're very problem focused, like what is going wrong
31:04
versus you know, I like my clients to focus on what is working,
31:07
what is going right, you know, reading success stories of people who have
31:11
healed and you know, yeah, radical remission stories, and that's what this
31:15
empowerment group is. I do intend in the near future to add more groups.
31:22
I've also been, yeah, been encouraged to create a course for other
31:26
therapists and I'm not sure if and one I'll have capacity for that, but
31:30
I would absolutely love to. And then I have I have the Journal.
31:34
I have a begin Within Journal, which is a way to track your mental,
31:38
physical, and spiritual help. And that is now an app that's available
31:44
on the App Store called Yeah did you create that? I did? Yeah,
31:49
jesus, how did you do that? I don't know it needed to
31:52
happen, No, but it's free. It's free on the app Store for
31:56
right now, so if you want to access it, it's definitely there.
31:59
Yeah. Yeah, it's very simple. It's very simple. But I just
32:01
wanted a way for folks to track their health and yeah, awesome feels aligned.
32:08
Well, Christina, Look, I'm I'm so glad we got you back
32:14
on here. It's always a not just a pleasure, but you're so freakin
32:17
inspiring and empowering and I can't wait to get this out there so our listeners
32:25
kids here, Oh, thank you and thank you again for giving me another
32:30
chance to record this like you are just a stand up human being. No,
32:34
seriously, I could cry like thank you so much, like certainly welcome
32:38
and certainly welcome back anytime. Share with the listeners. The best way to
32:44
get in contact with you, sure I can. You can find me at
32:47
begin within today dot com and Instagram, Facebook everywhere is begin within Today.
32:54
Okay, we'll have that linked up here at the show notes page at the
32:58
Traumatiss podcast dot com. Christina, awesome, you are awesome and uh love
33:04
for having you on here. Thank you so much, thank you, thank
33:06
you, thank you, thank you. Have a great listen to today.
33:07
Thanks for listening to everyone,