Latest / The Daily Writer / How's the Culture in Your Kingdom? (with Dan Cockerell)

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How's the Culture in Your Kingdom? (with Dan Cockerell) · The Daily Writer

0:06
SPEAKER_00: Hey friends, this is Kent Sanders from Inkwell Ghostwriting.
0:09
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to episode 160 of the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: This is the show that helps you grow your business, amplify your authority, and increase your impact through the power of writing.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me on this episode.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: We normally think of writing as mostly a solitary activity.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: However, even if you're a writer who works alone most of the time, you're still working with lots of other people, including colleagues, clients, contractors, readers, listeners, and many others.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: Or if you're writing as a side hustle and you still have a day job, which by the way, there's nothing wrong with that because I have a day job as well.
0:49
SPEAKER_00: If you're writing as a side hustle, then you're definitely still working with others, whether it's team members, supervisors, owners, or employees.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: Here's the point.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Each of us has our own kingdom or what you might call a sphere of influence.
1:05
SPEAKER_00: And each of those kingdoms has a culture.
1:08
SPEAKER_00: And I'm thrilled that we have a guest today who's here to help us improve the culture in our kingdoms, no matter where we find them.
1:14
SPEAKER_00: His name is Dan Cockerell, and he's the former vice president of the Magic Kingdom at Disney World.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: When he retired a few years ago, he was leading 12,000 cast members and entertained over 20 million guests annually.
1:32
SPEAKER_00: When he retired a few years ago, he was leading 12,000 cast members.
1:37
SPEAKER_00: And he also entertained over 20 million guests annually.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: And that role was the culmination of a long and successful career at Disney where Dan held various executive operations roles over the years, both in the theme parks and the resort hotels.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: Now Dan is a speaker and a coach who focuses on leadership and management practices that draw on his extensive career at Disney.
2:02
SPEAKER_00: I had the privilege of previewing Dan's new book, which is absolutely fantastic.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: It's called How's the Culture in Your Kingdom?
2:09
SPEAKER_00: And as you'll hear in this interview, I really truly did love this book.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: It's filled with tons of fun stories from his time at Disney.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: And it's also filled with examples of how to improve the culture in your personal and work life.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, if you're a regular listener of this podcast, you might recognize the last name, Cockrel, and that's because I interviewed Dan's father, Lee Cockerel, back on episode 146.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: So it was really fun to make this kind of a family affair here on the Smart Business Writing Podcast.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: Well, this episode is all about developing the right kind of culture in our organizations, even if we're an organization of just one person.
2:48
SPEAKER_00: Leadership begins with you and it begins with me.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: And even if you have a day job and you do writing as a side hustle, we all have a culture within our sphere of influence.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: And in this conversation, Dan shares his wisdom on how to improve your health, how to impact others when you're not the leader, how to help our teams take personal responsibility.
3:09
SPEAKER_00: And also how he used podcasting to build the culture within his team at Disney.
3:15
SPEAKER_00: Tons and tons of great stuff in this interview, and I had a blast doing it.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: Make sure to check out the show notes at KentSanders.net slash one six zero.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get to the conversation with Dan Cockrel.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: Dan, thank you so much for being on the podcast this afternoon.
3:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited to have you on and uh really appreciate you making time to do this.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks, Kent.
3:38
SPEAKER_01: I have learned, and my dad taught me when people call, you say yes.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Because uh making connections and opening doors and new opportunities is all around us.
3:49
SPEAKER_01: So I really appreciate you having me on and letting me uh talk to all your listeners today.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: Well, I am a huge Disney fan, and in fact, just read Bob Iger's biography uh a few months ago, and I'm a huge Star Wars nerd and and have loved Disney for my whole life.
4:05
SPEAKER_00: So this conversation could go on for hours and hours and hours, but I want to make the most use of your time and not necessarily get into all the Disney minutiae stuff that that I'm dying to find out about.
4:16
SPEAKER_00: But I do have one question, just from a management perspective, I'm really curious, and then we'll get into stuff that's probably more valuable to the listeners and not just my curiosity.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: But I was looking at your different roles that you had within Disney over the last several years that you were with Disney, and you moved from being the VP of Epcot, then to Hollywood Studios, and then to the Magic Kingdom.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: And I'm just curious, how were each of those parks different in terms of management?
4:42
SPEAKER_00: Is are they different as far as their size and complexity and what's required to lead each of those parks just in terms of the bigness of it?
4:51
SPEAKER_01: Boy, that's an awesome question.
4:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they are they are all different.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, the uh the the Epcot job um was basically when we launched, um, when they we started to work on at the time we called it NGE, Next Generation Experience, which became My Magic Plus, which was the billion-dollar tech uh rollout we did with Magic Bands and all the RFID technology.
5:17
SPEAKER_01: And uh the guy running uh Epcot at the time uh was moved on to that project.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: And that's the only reason that job opened up, and I was kind of on the short list.
5:27
SPEAKER_01: So I was able to go to Epcot as my first VP role.
5:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, that park is half of it is Future World, which we operate, and it would it was the next park to get a lot of investment.
5:38
SPEAKER_01: And the other half of the park is uh uh World Showcase.
5:42
SPEAKER_01: And if anyone's ever been to World Showcase, you know, there's 11 countries around the lagoon there.
5:46
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I love it.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: The cool thing about that, yeah, and the the cool thing about um the World Showcase is first of all, all the employees, or as we call them, cast members working in those pavilions are from those countries.
5:57
SPEAKER_01: That's a requirement, and it's a Disney policy requirement because we want to make sure people have a very authentic experience.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: And so they're all on J1 visas and come over for a year.
6:08
SPEAKER_01: And the other really cool thing about Epcot is uh the World Showcase is um half of the operations there are not run by Disney.
6:15
SPEAKER_01: They're operating participants that were brought in when the park opened because we wanted to deliver authenticity.
6:22
SPEAKER_01: And so um there's and and hopefully if you've been a guest there, you don't know which one is Disney and which one's an operating participant because it should be invisible and seamless to our guests.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: But my the opportunity I had to work with uh Mitsukoshi, which operates the Japanese pavilion, um you know, they opened their department store in the 1400s in Tokyo, and so um, and and and and working with uh Jerome Bokuz, who's the son of Paul Bokuz that runs the French restaurant.
6:48
SPEAKER_01: Um that was really cool because at Disney you're you're pretty insulated and you don't interact with a lot of businesses outside of Disney because we're such a big place.
6:55
SPEAKER_01: So I I met some really, really interesting people and learned a lot about business through how they ran their businesses, and I was able to benchmark them to make our our parks better.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh, studios was a whole nother thing.
7:06
SPEAKER_01: Studios, uh, there was a um a re uh a big relaunch, long time coming, and I I got to participate and work on that with Imagineering early on, and uh we brainstormed all kinds of ideas, and it's pretty cool when you get out a map of a park and you say, Okay, what if we put a land here?
7:25
SPEAKER_01: And what if we move this building and you're talking about big building blocks?
7:28
SPEAKER_01: And obviously, eventually that ended up transitioning into uh Galaxy's Edge, which is now Star Wars Land, and the great movie ride that I think that uh new attraction opened just two days ago, so that that needed a big refresh.
7:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then uh going to Magic Kingdom, that's like the as we talk about the mother of all theme parks.
7:48
SPEAKER_01: Um it does um it does a little less than double all the other parks.
7:54
SPEAKER_01: And it is um, as I used to tell the uh cast members of Magic Kingdom when I became the vice president there, just think about Magic Kingdom, how important our job is, because people that come to Walt Disney World, they either come to our park first or they come to only our park.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: Um that's the first visit for many guests, and if they only come for one day, that's the park they want to go to.
8:14
SPEAKER_01: So our opportunity to kick off their vacation or leave an impression on them, so they want to come back to Walt Disney World rests on the shoulders of the Magic Kingdom.
8:22
SPEAKER_01: And so that was uh the volume there was uh was pretty intimidating.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: But uh I'd worked in a lot of high, high uh volume operations, and so you start to that that job really makes you trust your people and delegate because if you try to put all that all the work on your shoulders, there's no way you can do it.
8:39
SPEAKER_01: 365 days a year, more than 20 million guests a year visiting that park, more than 12,000 employees.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: So you really learn how to count on your team and trust them because you have to, because like I said, there's not enough hours in the day to know about everything that's going on there.
8:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, that's a big responsibility because so many people just dream of going to Disney.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: And I mean, how many times have we seen the commercial?
9:02
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I just won the Super Bowl, where are you going?
9:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to Disney.
9:06
SPEAKER_00: So what is that like waking up in the morning when you're overseeing a place like that, knowing that the place that you're running represents so many people's dreams?
9:16
SPEAKER_00: Do you wake up with an equal amount of joy and pressure, or how does how do those things balance out?
9:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I said, you definitely feel the weight on your shoulders.
9:25
SPEAKER_01: And I found that the the most important job I had at the Magic Kingdom, and I've um, and I'll talk more about the book I wrote, but I'm a big, a big proponent of this, is when you get to a certain level, your your responsibilities become much less technical and much more leadership driven.
9:43
SPEAKER_01: And so I recognized my role at the Magic Kingdom is I had to be in charge of the environment and the culture.
9:49
SPEAKER_01: And I had to create a great culture for our employees to work in because if they worked in a great culture and a great environment to work in, they would deliver great service to our guests and they would deliver that Disney promise we make.
10:00
SPEAKER_01: And I found myself every day reminding everyone, hey guys, I know this we we come here every day and we work really, really hard every day, and we do the same thing every day.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: We open those gates every morning and we open the shops every morning and the attractions, and but this is the first day uh for many of our guests.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: This is the only time they're ever gonna visit Walt Disney World, or they're this is a life moment for them.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: And so don't get caught up in the routine and just remember no one else in the world is doing what we're doing at the volume we're doing it on a daily basis.
10:30
SPEAKER_01: And we work in a really cool special place, and I, you know, I don't care where you work, um, if you when you go every day, it's easy to forget that sometimes.
10:38
SPEAKER_01: And I my job was to remind everyone how great that place was and how big a responsibility we had to make sure we were delivering because uh, you know, that like I said, the guests is coming for the first time.
10:49
SPEAKER_01: They don't know we were open yesterday, they just know they came to see Cinderella's castle today, and everyone needs to be great to them and create magic and create happiness because that's what the that's what our promise is to people.
11:00
SPEAKER_00: Wow, I love that.
11:01
SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad that you mentioned your book because uh, well, first of all, thank you for the opportunity to read that.
11:06
SPEAKER_00: You sent me an advanced copy and really, really enjoyed it, and I cannot wait for that to get out and start impacting people's lives.
11:14
SPEAKER_00: One of the things that was most surprising to me about your book, which is, and I will have already have mentioned this in the intro, by the way, to the episode, but it's called How's the Culture in Your Kingdom for those who are listening?
11:24
SPEAKER_00: And just really, really a wonderful book on so many different topics, but primarily leadership.
11:29
SPEAKER_00: One of the most surprising things to me was that you begin the book talking about leading yourself, particularly talking about our health and even things like sleep and diet and so many of the things that it's easy to ignore.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: So I'd love to dig into that a little bit.
11:44
SPEAKER_00: How did you how did you get a handle on being healthy?
11:47
SPEAKER_00: Because you talk about your journey to better health in the book.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: What was it that that prompted that and how did you make that transition to becoming a healthier person?
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and um, you know, we we try to balance our lives, and that is really hard.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: I mean, my wife and I, you know, we had we we were raising three kids.
12:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, I had a really busy job.
12:09
SPEAKER_01: Now we were we had the luck that she, when with the kids were smaller, she chose to stop working.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: Most, a lot of families don't have that option.
12:17
SPEAKER_01: So it was even, you know, I would say it's harder for a lot of people than it was for us because we had an option that one of us could stay home.
12:24
SPEAKER_01: But it's easy to give up, to give that up because usually we're all giving our all for our family or our jobs.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: And the one thing it's easy not to focus on is exercise.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, we we extend the days by going to bed later or getting up earlier, and that cuts into the sleep we get.
12:41
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's easier to eat out when you're really busy rather than cook in and and and cook healthier.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: So it it can be it can be thrown away pretty quickly.
12:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think um I've had it's been a roller coaster ride.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: There's times in my life I've been really, really fit and really, really healthy, and other times I've let stuff go because I just didn't focus on it.
13:01
SPEAKER_01: And um the as my wife and I talk about in the book, you know, I walked in one day and got on the scale and I was at 226, and I'm like, oh man, this is not it, it kind of snuck as she likes to say, it's it's it's insidious.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: It happens slowly, it's only a pound a year, but all of a sudden when you're 45, 46 years old, the pound a year is a lot of weight.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: And so um, I just what I've found over time is one is um I think people have discovered um getting healthier or or changing their habits, but there's two things either crisis or education.
13:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I think one of the things I used, and really so these are simple tools, but uh you can get any one of many, many, many different apps out there.
13:42
SPEAKER_01: The one I use specifically was called Tap and Track, and I I'm not an owner of that app or have stock in that company, but Tap and Track was great because what it forces you to do is say, okay, I'm gonna input, and it's got a whole database in it.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: You can put calories, you can put products in there.
13:57
SPEAKER_01: And I'd every a few times a year I would use that app and I would just track what I'm eating and get a get a whole handle on what how many calories I was taking in.
14:06
SPEAKER_01: Because you know, I'd I'd go up to Starbucks and grab a scone, and then this was before they posted the calories on there, and I put it in tapping track.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: I was like, hey, this thing's almost 400 calories.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: I was like, whoa, that's like uh that's a quarter of my daily allowance on this one little thing I'm gonna eat.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: So I started to educate myself just about simply about the the calories I was taking in, and uh I started to form habits.
14:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh, when you start to get a habit, when you say, you know what, I'm gonna I'm gonna get up and run every morning, um, you start to, when it becomes a habit, you start to actually, you miss it if you don't do it.
14:38
SPEAKER_01: A lot of people say, well, that's the worst to get up and go do that.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: But when you start to make it a habit, um, it's easier to do.
14:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh the last thing is uh my wife and I went to bed super early.
14:49
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we were in bed by like eight or eight thirty every night.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: And so when people say, What time do you get up?
14:54
SPEAKER_01: I said, I get up at five.
14:55
SPEAKER_01: Wow, that's early.
14:56
SPEAKER_01: I said, Well, I went to bed at eight.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm getting nine hours of sleep getting up at 5 a.m.
15:00
SPEAKER_01: And that's when I found the time to go out and work out and take care of that stuff.
15:05
SPEAKER_01: And some people say, Well, I can't, I can't go to bed that early because I work late or I have kids that I need to help them with their homework.
15:12
SPEAKER_01: And so there's no secret answer to this, but I think if you um really think about your priorities, and I stack them in three things.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: Number one priority in my life was me.
15:23
SPEAKER_01: Number two was my family, number three was my career.
15:25
SPEAKER_01: And so every day I do, I had a little mental scorecard in my mind.
15:29
SPEAKER_01: All right, Dan, how did you do today on taking care of yourself?
15:32
SPEAKER_01: Well, I had to get up early to go to work and I wasn't able to work out this evening, so I get a zero taking care of myself today.
15:39
SPEAKER_01: Well, how'd you do with your family?
15:40
SPEAKER_01: Well, I I did get up early and I emptied the dishwasher before I went to work and I texted my wife during the day and told her I love her.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: Okay, you get you get 0.75 points for that today.
15:50
SPEAKER_01: And how about work?
15:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, I had a decent day at work and I got a presentation done, I got good feedback.
15:55
SPEAKER_01: All right, 1.75 out of three, that's a really good day.
15:58
SPEAKER_01: And and you're always sacrificing something.
16:00
SPEAKER_01: If I got up early to go swim or run, I couldn't go to work early.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: And if I stayed at work late, I couldn't be home to read my kids uh a story.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: And so as long as you're thinking about what your behaviors are and where you're focusing your time and attention, you'll you'll do, you'll be ahead of most people and you'll be doing well for yourself.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: But there's certainly times you're gonna be out of balance.
16:21
SPEAKER_01: And so, like I said, every time I I try to refocus back in, I sold myself, am I taking care of myself?
16:27
SPEAKER_01: Am I taking care of my family and my responsibilities?
16:29
SPEAKER_01: And am I contributing at work?
16:31
SPEAKER_01: And if on balance I was being able to hit all the three of those things consistently, I knew that my life was gonna, you know, be be okay.
16:39
SPEAKER_00: Man, I love that.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: I love that idea of that scorecard.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: In fact, that's something I guess you if you wanted to, you could just carry around in a planner or in your wallet or on your phone or something.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: That's genius.
16:49
SPEAKER_00: So simple, but so effective.
16:51
SPEAKER_00: Now you mentioned that you had a story about something that happened really recently with your health.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: Is that something that you wanted to dive into on this episode?
16:59
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: This is a wake-up call for everybody.
17:01
SPEAKER_01: So let me tell you my story.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm like I said, I exercise a lot.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: I I'll do a uh I'll swim a mile up the YMCA a couple times a week.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh usually go on a four-mile run at home.
17:14
SPEAKER_01: So I average probably five and a half days a week.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: I work out, and it's it's it gets rid of uh stress.
17:21
SPEAKER_01: I feel better.
17:23
SPEAKER_01: It's just, it's it's kind of like my it's it's everything for me.
17:26
SPEAKER_01: So starting um, and I used to, when I was at Disney as an executive, you know, we had a great uh health program and I'd go and get my stress test uh every year.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: So the last stress test I did was two and a half years ago, and uh I have I run high in cholesterol that runs in my family, it's genetic, um, and so we we track it.
17:43
SPEAKER_01: But I've always my wife has uh, you know, she's she cooks very um very um healthy.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: We eat healthy, we live a pretty healthy lifestyle, and so uh I the past month and a half, two months, I've been running, but I was kind of getting out of breath, and I just my my stamina wasn't there.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: And then two weeks ago I went for a run.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: I ran about a mile and I had some um pain in my chest and my left arm a little radiating and a little numbness.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: So I said, well, maybe it's a cramp.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: Um so I took a week and a half off, and then just last week we were at a uh we were doing a speech over in Clearwater.
18:20
SPEAKER_01: I got up in the morning and swam, and on my 20th lap, that feeling came back in my chest and my arm again.
18:26
SPEAKER_01: So I said to my wife, Well, I I made a doctor's appointment for Tuesday.
18:30
SPEAKER_01: She said, No, you make a doctor's appointment for tomorrow.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: So I went in to Guidewell, it's a clinic here, and they looked at me and they they'd uh um kind of said that we want you to see a cardiologist tomorrow.
18:43
SPEAKER_01: I went and saw the cardiologist um on Friday, so three days ago.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: Uh he said, uh, I want you to do a stress test.
18:51
SPEAKER_01: I did a stress test um the day before yesterday, and the stress test I got up to about 130.
18:57
SPEAKER_01: I need to get to 142 for my heart rate.
19:00
SPEAKER_01: I got about to 130 and I got that pain in my chest again.
19:03
SPEAKER_01: So he came back in, he looked at the EKG, and he goes, Yeah, this this it's not as flat as it should be.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: There's a little anomaly here, plus with your symptoms, I want you to go get uh arterial uh catheterization.
19:16
SPEAKER_01: Basically, they go in through your wrist with this incredible technology and they run the wire up through your wrist, through the artery, into your heart, and then they can look and see what's going on.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: And they they look to me and they said, Well, look, you you're you're an athlete, you're in good shape, you eat right, um, we're just gonna do this as a preventative measure.
19:36
SPEAKER_01: So yesterday I I go in for the uh procedure, and ironically, I'm I'm awake for most of it.
19:42
SPEAKER_01: They don't put you under.
19:43
SPEAKER_01: So wow.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I guess if you freak out, they can put you under.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: But I was you know there, and she said, Yeah, it's probably a false.
19:50
SPEAKER_01: She didn't say probably.
19:51
SPEAKER_01: She said, We have a lot of false positives, but it's always good to take a look.
19:55
SPEAKER_01: Well, during the surgery, I came out and uh they said your um you they call it your lad, your left anterior descending artery, which is called the widowmaker artery.
20:06
SPEAKER_01: They said it was 90 to 95 percent blocked.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Whoa, whoa.
20:11
SPEAKER_01: And uh that's not good.
20:13
SPEAKER_01: It's the it's the artery that kind of gives it it feeds blood directly to your heart muscle to keep it pumping.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, talk about dodging a bullet.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: And my you know, my my uh in-laws in France, my wife's from France, they couldn't believe it.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: They're like, well, how could how could that happen?
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Dan's in great shape.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: He's you know, he runs, he swims.
20:32
SPEAKER_01: And I I I I think back to watching that commercial, it's always what's your number?
20:36
SPEAKER_01: Because people think from a lifestyle perspective, if they're all healthy, then they can't this can't happen.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: And uh I it happened, and they put a the stent in, and I mean the it's a miracle because I was you know, I was out of the hospital, and this morning I told the doctor, Well, when can I run?
20:50
SPEAKER_01: He goes, You can run tomorrow if you want.
20:52
SPEAKER_01: He said, just you know, you take care of the wrist where you're we went through that artery, but you know, maybe rest for eight hours, but you're good to go again.
20:58
SPEAKER_01: So, anyway, I think this is just um people got to keep an eye on the stuff.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: And I'm gonna be talking a lot about this because I felt great.
21:05
SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I've been running and up until two weeks ago, I had no pain.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: And when I told the doctor, I said, Well, I said, I'm pretty lucky.
21:12
SPEAKER_01: He goes, Well, the fact you're working out every day, you were doing a stress test every day on yourself.
21:17
SPEAKER_01: The fact you started to feel the symptoms was why you're here.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of people, if they don't exercise, they never get that pain.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: And one day they just drop dead.
21:26
SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to be dramatic, but that's what happened.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: So um, anyway, the message is um, you know, take care of your health.
21:33
SPEAKER_01: Because I would I could have been the classic 50 51-year-old, really healthy guy that dropped dead during a keynote speech.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: It would have been a dramatic story, but not a great one for my wife to have to tell.
21:44
SPEAKER_01: Not a story that you want to tell.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
21:46
SPEAKER_01: Anyway, we we won't dwell on that, but uh take care of your health.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: See, that's a really important message, though, especially for this audience.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: You know, this is a show for writers, and writing by definition is kind of a sedentary, it's a sedentary.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: Activity and a lot of writers are not healthy and don't pay a lot of attention to that.
22:04
SPEAKER_00: So I'm actually really glad you told that story because I mean I'm 45.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: I'll be 46 this summer.
22:09
SPEAKER_00: So I'm I'm right there.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: I need to drop a few pounds and I run and but I don't do it as consistently as I should.
22:17
SPEAKER_00: So thanks for that wake up call.
22:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, the interesting thing is people usually who are not in in great health don't feel bad.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, they don't have any symptoms, they feel okay.
22:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, it's it's it's when you start working out you and it makes you feel you're like, oh God, I'm out of breath, I feel sick.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: Well, good.
22:34
SPEAKER_01: That means that you're you're you're stressing your body in a good way.
22:38
SPEAKER_01: And so uh, and for me, it's just about, you know, A, how long do you want to live?
22:43
SPEAKER_01: Are you thinking about your family?
22:44
SPEAKER_01: And B, what kind of quality of life do you want to have?
22:46
SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, medicine and everything can keep us alive a long time today, but it's not really about how long you go.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: It's like, what's your quality of life?
22:53
SPEAKER_01: And then are you active and are you able to do all the stuff you want to do into the later years?
22:57
SPEAKER_01: But it's easy, it's hard to think about that.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: It's like planning for retirement when you're 22.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't, it seems like years and years off, and you're like, well, that's forever.
23:05
SPEAKER_01: I don't have to worry about that.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: But then you blink and you're 51, you're like, wow, I'm glad I started planning a long time ago around this because it eventually comes.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
23:15
SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm so glad you started out the book with that topic because so often that is a topic that just gets passed over on any books about leadership or organizations or influence.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: I do want to dig into some of the other topics that you talked about because, man, there's this again, this is such a great book, and I can't wait for people to get their hands on it.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: So, again, in our audience, we have a lot of writers, people who have their a solo business, they have a freelance business, but also people who are perhaps working for an organization or working for someone else.
23:45
SPEAKER_00: Can you talk a bit about how to impact the culture of your organization?
23:51
SPEAKER_00: Number one, if you are not the boss.
23:53
SPEAKER_00: But then number two, what if you're an organization of one person?
23:57
SPEAKER_00: What does that mean?
23:58
SPEAKER_00: And how could that person implement some of the principles that you're talking about in your book as far as having a great culture?
24:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
24:06
SPEAKER_01: And I I think the way I like to think about this is the the what the book talks about is it can it's it's very broad and it goes way out into everything.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't have to be at work, it can be in your home, it can be at your church, in your community.
24:20
SPEAKER_01: Whatever, whenever you're spending time with people, you have an opportunity to help influence the culture of that uh interaction or that group.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: And uh, I'm a strong believer that everybody is a leader, everybody can be a leader.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, if you're willing to speak up in a meeting, you are a leader.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: If you're willing to give people your uh honest opinion, even though it may not jibe with what they um want, you are a leader.
24:50
SPEAKER_01: Uh and so you know this idea of uh people look at hierarchy and they look at titles.
24:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, there are people at Disney, and I learned over the years when I worked in a park or resort hotel, I tried to find out quickly who are the opinion leaders among our frontline cast members because there's always a group of people who are natural leaders.
25:08
SPEAKER_01: They may not be in leadership positions by name, but everyone listens to them.
25:12
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's the union representatives, sometimes it's a person that's been there for 25 years.
25:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh, often it's the person who just is has a lot of charisma and people listen to.
25:22
SPEAKER_01: And I learned over time you really need to uh hook those people in and make sure they're on board with whatever you're trying to get done.
25:29
SPEAKER_01: Because if they don't agree with what you're doing, you may never know it, but they won't, they won't pull their, put their full support behind whatever initiative or whatever you're trying to get done.
25:39
SPEAKER_01: And if you can make them partners, you can get anything done.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: And so a lot of times at Disney, I learned find the people who maybe are not as supportive of you and engage them and take them out to lunch and talk with them.
25:51
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean you're gonna connect and you're gonna be like be best friends forever, but if you can show them a sign of respect in the fact you're listening to them, you're more likely to be able to influence them.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: And we usually do the opposite.
26:01
SPEAKER_01: When someone is combative or maybe is aloof, we tend not to engage them.
26:06
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a mistake in leadership.
26:08
SPEAKER_01: But um, when it comes to culture, the big thing for me is what if you ask people who you interact with how to describe you and and their experience with you, what are they gonna say?
26:20
SPEAKER_01: And that's that's a real easy one.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: So when I when I was at Disney, I thought about the fact I want people to describe me as being accessible and approachable.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: I wanted people to know if they needed to talk to me, they could get to me.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: Um, I didn't want to be the end-all be-all of solving every problem at the Magic Kingdom because I couldn't, but I wanted to um let people know if you we have a big organization, we have a big hierarchy, and if you think if you have a problem, please go see your leader.
26:48
SPEAKER_01: If either your leader isn't following through on something you think is important or you don't feel comfortable talking to your leader, you call me directly, I'll give you a confidential voicemail number, and I will talk to you.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: And if you want to keep our conversation confidential, that's fine.
27:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, but I I'll talk to you about that.
27:04
SPEAKER_01: And I would get out in the park every day.
27:05
SPEAKER_01: I'd block time in my calendar to walk the park to make sure I was out there.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: And I parked in the cast parking lot a few times a month, and I would come in the guest entrance uh once a month as a as a guest, and I'd go to the employee cafeteria regularly and just have lunch, no entourage.
27:21
SPEAKER_01: I would just show up by myself, sit down with some cast members and chat.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: And so after a while, people thought it was a trick or a trap, or and then finally they realized I was just interested in talking to them.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: And so, over time, if you do certain things, you'll get a certain reputation, and that's what people will base what they talk to you on.
27:36
SPEAKER_01: So if you are an author and you are a freelancer, every time you get on the phone with someone, you should answer it with enthusiasm.
27:44
SPEAKER_01: Now, you don't want to be fake, you want to be authentic, but you want to let people know you're excited to talk to them, you have energy.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: I always talked about the fact that the Magic Kingdom, every leader brings energy into a room or takes energy from a room.
27:56
SPEAKER_01: That's good.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: You want to be that person that's giving, uh making people things just feel better when you show up before you even say anything.
28:04
SPEAKER_01: And if you can think about your mindset and how you're um translating that into your behaviors, that's how you can influence culture, whether it's with your kids, your spouse, your partner, your peers at work, your, like you said, your community.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: If you're working with someone who is on your team and you would describe them or you would think of them as a low energy person, what are some ways that that you have worked with those low energy people to try and help them to be more positive, more engaged, more energetic, more enthusiastic?
28:33
SPEAKER_00: Are there some specific strategies that we could use with people on our teams to help raise them up in that regard?
28:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, that that that's a good question.
28:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, I guess my first response to that is um hire people who are already that way.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a I learned at Disney and I had many uh hard um lessons that I early in my career I thought you could hire people who are on the border and change them.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: And you really can't change people.
28:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think everyone is a kind of a set thermostat.
29:03
SPEAKER_01: They're kind of the way they are, and they can move up or down a few degrees, but they won't change dramatically over time.
29:08
SPEAKER_01: So, what I found at Disney is the probably one of the most important things of being successful in leadership is just hiring the right people.
29:15
SPEAKER_01: It's probably not the fun, exciting part of leadership, but when you find people who are um, I call it um, and in you know, psychology research has looked at this, when you find people that are internally motivated, right, they they are motivated just by the fact of who they are.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't matter what you pay them, it doesn't matter how much you recognize them, they will find a way to get the job done and they will bring a positive impact.
29:38
SPEAKER_01: They will always find solutions, they're always out there pushing themselves, not trying to prove themselves anyone else.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: They just have a personal pride and a personal drive.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: People who are externally motivated, they are going to say, Well, I do more, but I'm not being paid enough, or I do that, but it's too hard, or I don't have the authority to do that, or I'm not allowed to do that, or I don't have the right title.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: And a lot of people are externally motivated, will come up with excuses of not getting something done because they find an external reason for that.
30:07
SPEAKER_01: And so I would just tell you, if you can more and more you can find people who are internally motivated, you won't have to motivate them.
30:12
SPEAKER_01: You won't have to try to get them to have more energy because they'll already be that way.
30:17
SPEAKER_01: And depending on what you um your your uh environment is, um, I found at Disney, people who didn't have that a lot of times would self-select out because they were around so many people who are so extroverted and so talented, they would just realize, man, I I don't feel comfortable here and I can't keep up here, and I'll just go work someplace else, maybe that doesn't demand the same.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: But that's the great thing about culture is the more you hire people like that, the more you attract people who are like that.
30:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, so um, like I said, I'm not saying you can't motivate people, but it's pretty limited.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: Um, I think you got to hire the right people along the way or put them in roles that they're not gonna have to interact with people as much.
30:54
SPEAKER_01: You know, we have a lot of roles at Disney that are not guest-facing.
30:57
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't mean they don't interact with other cast members, and that's important.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: But um if you want it, you figure out what the skill set and the success is for every job and hire people that fit that.
31:08
SPEAKER_01: And if you need some people that are high energy, hire hire high energy people.
31:12
SPEAKER_00: Wow, that that is so great.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: That's really great.
31:15
SPEAKER_00: One of my favorite stories from your book, and there are so many great stories, and I just have to compliment you on your level of storytelling and the amount of stories in the book.
31:24
SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of business books are are just kind of dry and boring, but I just I just breeze through this because it's so fun and so engaging.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: And anybody who loves Disney is gonna love it even more.
31:35
SPEAKER_00: And one of my favorite stories was when you were serving at the Disney All-Star Resort and you talked about being in housekeeping for two weeks just to figure out how that operation ran.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: And you were working with a housekeeper who gave you a little bit of correction, and that was such a fun story.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: And I wanted to see if you could share that with us and what you learned from that experience.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Well, one of the things that's very common in the Disney culture, uh, when leaders go to new areas of responsibility, they spend time we call in-costume training.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: So, as a general man, for example, as a general manager of the All-Star Resort, uh, it was expected of me, and I expected to do this, is get get spend time in every part of the resort.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: Uh, spending a couple mornings with the uh recreational team to see how they uh treat the pools and make sure the recreation area was ready, spend time in food and beverage and watch how the food is made and work on the register, uh, work at the front desk and learn how to check a guest in.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: You wouldn't become an expert in it, but the more you could spend time out there, A, you would learn what the technical part of the job is, but B, and much more importantly, there's the respect level and the credibility you would get from your employees by working side by side with them and having them teach you the business was invaluable.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: And so I would just highly recommend people out there, if you are out in a job somewhere, get out and work side by side with your people, whether you're in a call center, wherever you are, people just are really um, they think it's really fun that the you know the general manager or the manager will come and work with them.
33:10
SPEAKER_01: Um and they and the and the fun part is they love coaching them because just because you're in a in a role like that doesn't mean you're good at it.
33:16
SPEAKER_01: And uh I spent two weeks in housekeeping, and boy, that was a I mean, I was every day that the at the All-Star housekeepers have to clean 18 rooms a day.
33:27
SPEAKER_01: And some of them are checkouts and some of them are stayovers, but you learn um um how to how to clean a room, how to look for what cleanliness needs to look like, how to be really efficient.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: You know, we we train all our housekeepers at Disney to make the full side of the bed on one side and then make the other the rest of it on the other side.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: Because every time you have to go back and forth, like most of us do in our regular beds uh to make them every day, you waste time.
33:52
SPEAKER_01: And so I got trained on all of that.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: And my my uh trainer Blanca, she uh had me for that time.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: And uh eventually she would let me do my own rooms and then come inspect them.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: And uh she came in one day and she went into the, she looked around and she's giving me the white glove treatment, and uh she went in the bathroom and she came out and she said, Hey Dan, did you clean the bathtub?
34:15
SPEAKER_01: And I said, uh, well, the bathtub's clean.
34:19
SPEAKER_01: And she said, Yeah, but did you clean it?
34:21
SPEAKER_01: And I finally fessed up.
34:22
SPEAKER_01: I said, Well, no, but it's clean.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: And she said, and I said, Why are you giving me a hard time about this?
34:27
SPEAKER_01: We'd become pretty good friends by that.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Why are you giving me a hard time?
34:30
SPEAKER_01: She said, You know when the best time to clean a clean bathtub is?
34:33
SPEAKER_01: It's when it's already clean.
34:35
SPEAKER_01: Because by the if you don't clean it by the time the mold shows up, it's too late.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: So you clean a clean bathtub.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: And I said, Blanca, where did you learn that?
34:43
SPEAKER_01: She said, My mother taught me that.
34:45
SPEAKER_01: And um, so for her, I thought these jobs, these housekeeping jobs, were gonna be miserable jobs where people were just miserable because it's such a hard job.
34:53
SPEAKER_01: And I discovered, I had this great discovery that the really good housekeepers loved what they did.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: They it was her room, she referred it to as her guests, and it was personal to her.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: And she would um take care of the room, she would fold the towels in a certain way, a lot of the housekeepers there and animals, because she knew she was there to create these excellent magical experiences for guests, and that's a very um intimate part of their experience, is the hotel room.
35:18
SPEAKER_01: You know, you're you're uh you're in the bathroom, you're sleeping in the bed, it has to be perfect.
35:23
SPEAKER_01: And uh she um she gave me the the what for for uh not not cleaning the and she taught me a lot about that, but I learned about this pride they have, and I'd go walk rooms every day or every week at the All-Star, I'd be inspecting rooms, and it wasn't because I was seeing if they're clean or not, because there's 6,000 rooms there, and I can't get to all the rooms, but I needed to show that clean rooms were important.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: And as a leader, if you don't show up and look at things that are important, then people will assume they're not important.
35:49
SPEAKER_01: And uh that's what Blanca taught me about professionalism and kind of passion, and I took that, took that to heart.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: Man, I love that lesson, particularly for for all of us who have clients and we're serving well, everybody has clients and customers on some level, but particularly if you know I think of writers who are serving people through freelance writing or ghostwriting or copywriting or something else.
36:12
SPEAKER_00: And sometimes it's easy to have this distance from people, particularly when you're working with those who who you're not physically around.
36:18
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they live in a different state or a country or something.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: But I love this idea of taking personal responsibility for it and saying it's just this isn't just a project I'm working on, but this is, you know, like like Blanca said, these are my guests, and I'm taking ownership and responsibility for this.
36:35
SPEAKER_00: And almost like I want to ensure personally that they have a great experience because it's something personal I'm doing for them.
36:42
SPEAKER_00: I'm not just doing some random job.
36:45
SPEAKER_00: That's really great.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: And I just on that note, uh, Ken, I would say, you know, those people are out there, um, you know, ghostwriting or freelancer, I think if you have a client, and this is what my wife Valer and I have discovered over the past couple of years, you got to tell people the truth.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of consultants, it's easy to come in and tell them what they want to hear, and they still pay you and you walk away.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: But if you don't make them better, you haven't done your job.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: And so I've really been, when I've hired people to help me, um, you know, at uh Morgan James, who's publishing my book, they told me, you know, as we got the title ready, they said, Dan, we love your title, which was previously, How's the Weather in Your Kingdom?
37:23
SPEAKER_01: They said, but that's not, that's gonna confuse your consumers and people aren't gonna understand what that means.
37:28
SPEAKER_01: And we strongly um recommend you change that to culture.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: And that was stinging.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: I'd been, I've been thinking about that title for like a year and a half.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: And but I knew they were right.
37:37
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm so glad they told me their honest opinion on it.
37:40
SPEAKER_01: It would have been easy just to leave it and say, well, we won't mess with the title.
37:43
SPEAKER_01: He's really passionate about it.
37:45
SPEAKER_01: So I would just tell you, as a as a consult, if you're doing any consulting out there, anyone's hiring you, tell them up front that you're gonna be highly candid and you're gonna give them your point of view, and you want them to know that in advance.
37:56
SPEAKER_01: And as Valer says, Um, you know, when we go work with people, we're not here to make you happy, we're here to make you better.
38:02
SPEAKER_01: And uh sometimes I've given some some executives some very uh direct feedback and said, look, um, here's what you can do, but here's what you personally, in my opinion, you personally need to do to improve this organization.
38:15
SPEAKER_01: And uh it stings.
38:16
SPEAKER_01: And uh so far no one's fired us yet early on our contract, but uh they were close.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that's what people ultimately want.
38:23
SPEAKER_00: They want the truth, and at least hopefully they want the truth.
38:27
SPEAKER_00: I think most people do want that.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, here's a little here's a little thing on that.
38:30
SPEAKER_01: They may, they may want it or they may need it, but they may not want it.
38:34
SPEAKER_01: Yes, sometimes give people don't give people what they want, give them what they need.
38:39
SPEAKER_00: Now, one thing I do want to ask about, um, I guess as we start to wind this down, there's so many other other questions I have.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: I've got a couple more things.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: One thing that you talk about in the book is communicating purpose to your team.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: And you had several ways that you did that at the Magic Kingdom.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: One of the ways that you talked about is producing a weekly podcast of your priorities and sending that out to your team.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: Can you talk a bit about that and how you used podcasting specifically to impact the culture of the Magic Kingdom?
39:08
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
39:09
SPEAKER_01: The uh it was funny.
39:11
SPEAKER_01: When I got to Magic Kingdom, I I realized I was now in an environment where I could not personally talk to everybody.
39:18
SPEAKER_01: Um Epcot and Studios were smaller properties.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: I couldn't necessarily talk to everybody, but I could get around the park.
39:24
SPEAKER_01: And when I got to Magic Kingdom, you know, it's open, I don't know, 17, 16, 17 hours a day.
39:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's 365 days a year, 12,000 cast members.
39:33
SPEAKER_01: So I started to realize I needed a new approach.
39:37
SPEAKER_01: And so my communication manager and I sat down and we started chatting about um how we could take care of this.
39:43
SPEAKER_01: And one idea she came up with was called, we called it Insta Dan.
39:47
SPEAKER_01: She could, you know, she was like in her, I don't know, maybe early 30s.
39:51
SPEAKER_01: She said, Have you ever heard of Instagram?
39:53
SPEAKER_01: I said, Oh, come on, Lindsay.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm old, but I I know what Instagram is.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: She's not that old.
39:59
SPEAKER_01: Well, we're gonna do Insta Dam.
40:00
SPEAKER_01: So you're gonna go, you're gonna walk the park, and when you see a cast member doing a great job, you're gonna take a selfie with them.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: And then we're gonna write a little who it is, and you're gonna write a little thing about where they work and what how they what they did and what the example was of you noticing their performance.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: And we're gonna post it around the Magic Kingdom and the tunnel and the backstage areas and the break rooms.
40:19
SPEAKER_01: And I thought that at first I said, no one wants, you know, that's gonna look kind of uh like I have a lot of vanity here, wanting to be all these selfies.
40:26
SPEAKER_01: She said, No, it's not about you, it's about them being the picture with you and you praising what they're doing, and you're gonna reinforce the behaviors.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: And so we started doing that, and it was very successful.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: And like you said, the podcast was another big one.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: And when I say podcast, this wasn't in a recording booth with a producer and a script and everything.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: It was me on my uh iPhone wherever I was, whether I was in the park or if I was on vacation, I remember I did one at the Denver airport.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: It was me hitting play and recording four or five minutes of me sharing my thoughts with the team.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: Hey, team, this is Dan.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: We had a great week last week.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we hit our we hit our budget on our attendance um and we had uh um a near-miss accident in an area.
41:09
SPEAKER_01: I want to remind everyone how important it is to not text and walk because you can trip and and hurt yourself.
41:15
SPEAKER_01: Um I also want to call out Cosmic Rays and the team there.
41:18
SPEAKER_01: They've come up with a new magical moment where they um they put a brand on the the buns uh with a buzz light year branding now that's really cool and guests are loving it.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: So if you have any ideas and innovative ideas, please you know tell your leader about it and let me know.
41:33
SPEAKER_01: And that was the end of it.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: And it was always in one take.
41:36
SPEAKER_01: I would always do it, even if I made a mistake, I'd say, oh, that I was wrong, this is what that actually is.
41:40
SPEAKER_01: And then we'd email that file out to everyone.
41:43
SPEAKER_01: They'd put a little jingle at the beginning, like we do for podcasts, and uh they'd send and Lindsay would send it out every week.
41:49
SPEAKER_01: So it doesn't have to be high tech and it doesn't have to be expensive, but I wanted to make sure people heard my authentic voice every week.
41:55
SPEAKER_01: Because like I said, that place is a big place.
41:58
SPEAKER_01: And I wanted them to know, even if I don't know you personally, I want you to hear my voice and hear what I'm talking about and hear what I value.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: And I the things I talked about were the things we valued safety, courtesy, show, and efficiency, which are our four quality standards at Disney.
42:11
SPEAKER_01: And maybe we can do a whole episode next time on that.
42:14
SPEAKER_01: But um, they get you need to talk about the things that are important all the time and never get tired of it.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: Because when you once you get tired of talking about it, people are just starting to listen.
42:23
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and that's what we do.
42:24
SPEAKER_01: We create those experiences for people, so you got to be talking about them all the time, and that's how you get people excited about what they're doing every day and not get caught up in the monotony of you know the same job every day.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: Keep it exciting.
42:36
SPEAKER_00: Wow, I love that.
42:39
SPEAKER_00: If there's slight pauses in the conversation, it's because I'm furiously taking notes on what you said, because it's such good stuff.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Now, one final question that I want to throw out there, and I hope I phrased this correctly, but there, and this is only going to apply to probably a segment of this audience, but it's something that really struck me.
42:58
SPEAKER_00: So I interviewed your dad, uh and for those who are listening, Dan's dad is Lee Cockrel, who I interviewed on the show just a few weeks ago, who of course uh had a very successful and long career with Disney as well.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: I'm wondering if you can speak to what it's like to be, and I don't want to, I don't want to use the phrase in the shadow of your dad or in someone else's shadow.
43:18
SPEAKER_00: That's not really what I mean.
43:19
SPEAKER_00: But when you are, when you're you're in a work environment or when you're in a career or vocation where you've had somebody who has come before you and a lot of people know who that person is, whether it's uh a supervisor or a boss who is very influential.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: In my case, I've got an older brother who's five years older who uh we've always been in the same circles, and I've always been known as, you know, my his name is Don, as Don's brother.
43:45
SPEAKER_00: For those who are in those situations, how do you how do you operate in an environment and truly make your own mark on that place uh while at the same time honoring the person who helped to get you in that environment and help introduce you?
44:00
SPEAKER_00: I hope that my question is making sense.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
44:04
SPEAKER_01: I have a few good stories around that.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: I think the first one is you know, when I was um we used to do something at Disney called um uh feedback and action planning sessions and new leader transitions.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: And basically the idea was after you I had arrived at it or the leader had arrived into a new role, you'd wait two or three months and then you do like a half day work session with your direct reports.
44:28
SPEAKER_01: The idea was okay, now that we've worked together for a few months, let's take some time outside of the business and let's talk about how things are going.
44:37
SPEAKER_01: Let me tell you as a leader what I expect from everybody and what my observations are so far, and let me hear from you on what I need to be improving upon.
44:47
SPEAKER_01: Because when you go into a new operation as a new leader, um you're changing a lot of things without even knowing it because you're the only thing that's changed is you and you weren't there before.
44:56
SPEAKER_01: And so um, I would leave the room uh for an hour and a half and I would let the team write all the questions they had that they didn't feel comfortable to ask directly, but they felt comfortable to ask as a group.
45:07
SPEAKER_01: And then we did something called stop, start, continue.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: And they would write up on a flip chart what what are all the things we want Dan to stop doing, start doing, continue doing?
45:15
SPEAKER_01: And then they'd prioritize it.
45:17
SPEAKER_01: And so then you'd come back in.
45:18
SPEAKER_01: And if it's scary, the first time you do it, you just don't know what people are gonna talk about.
45:22
SPEAKER_01: Like we we wish you would stop being our boss.
45:25
SPEAKER_01: Like we we wish you would start going to a different job because we don't like working with you.
45:29
SPEAKER_01: You never know what they're gonna say.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: That's scary.
45:31
SPEAKER_01: And um, you come back and uh and it's it's it's it's really scary as a leader, but when you can make yourself that vulnerable, you learn so much.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: And if you could open up and know that you always have something to improve upon, um, because if the team can give you feedback to become better, you lead them better, they do a better job, and you get the credit for that.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: So it's it all you know, it all makes sense.
45:51
SPEAKER_01: But one of the big questions they used to ask me in my first six or seven leadership roles I had is Did your dad help you get into the job you're in?
45:59
SPEAKER_01: Are you are you in the job you're in today because your dad?
46:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because everyone because he was in a very high profile role.
46:05
SPEAKER_01: And so um, you know, I'd always tell him, Well, look, I worked here in college before he worked for Disney, and I worked in France, and I'd give him sort of all the reasons that I didn't get help from him, and I was my own man.
46:15
SPEAKER_01: And I talked to a guy one day, and his uncle ran hit the company he worked in outside of Disney in a different place.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: And I told him, he said, How do you handle that?
46:23
SPEAKER_01: I told him, he said, Dan, do you think they really believe that?
46:26
SPEAKER_01: And I said, What do you mean?
46:27
SPEAKER_01: He goes, You don't think you're wearing you day because your dad?
46:30
SPEAKER_01: I said, What do you mean?
46:31
SPEAKER_01: He goes, Did he he raised you, right?
46:33
SPEAKER_01: I said, Yeah.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: Did he give you advice along the way?
46:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
46:36
SPEAKER_01: Did he give you, um, did he get you into the Dort casting when Disneyland Paris was opening and they gave you a chance?
46:42
SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah.
46:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, of course he helped you.
46:45
SPEAKER_01: And so the next time I joined a team, I told them that, and they're like, Well, all the drama's gone now.
46:50
SPEAKER_01: You admitted it.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
46:53
SPEAKER_01: We're all we're all where we are because lots of people have helped us before.
46:56
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I know we get caught up in that idea of nepotism and things.
47:00
SPEAKER_01: And um, it's, I think you, and I tell college program kids now when I talk to them, use every connection you have.
47:07
SPEAKER_01: I don't care if it's your uncle, your parent, your friends, the world works on relationships.
47:11
SPEAKER_01: Now, A, once you get into that job, you better do a great job because you know, that was the risk me joining Disney.
47:18
SPEAKER_01: Anything I did would reflect back on him and vice versa.
47:20
SPEAKER_01: And all three of our kids worked there in college and had various jobs.
47:24
SPEAKER_01: We always told them, remember, you have that name, you're carrying our sort of legacy with you.
47:28
SPEAKER_01: So if you don't want to work there, that's fine.
47:31
SPEAKER_01: But if you are gonna work there, you got to be really good at what you do.
47:34
SPEAKER_01: And I don't mean perfect, but I mean be on time, don't call in sick, all the basics, don't steal anything.
47:39
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so uh I think over time I realized, you know what?
47:43
SPEAKER_01: If this was big, a big enough deal for me that I I I felt like I wasn't getting a fair opportunity or I was getting too much, I I I couldn't handle that.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: I could go work for lots of other companies.
47:53
SPEAKER_01: But I love Disney so much, my dad loved working there, it was worth it.
47:57
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, you have to manage it because always people always are worried if I tell you something or you can tell him, and I said, look, we came up with a deal a long time ago.
48:04
SPEAKER_01: We don't talk about work when we get together because that's not gonna do anything for anybody.
48:08
SPEAKER_01: Um and I I would just tell people out there, um, use your relationships.
48:13
SPEAKER_01: There that that idea that people say, well, it's not fair, you know, it may be fair or not fair, but the reality is when you know people, um, you you you're gonna get at least you're gonna get your resume on the top of a pile and at least get a look.
48:27
SPEAKER_01: And then from there, if you have the right qualifications and you can do the job, uh you'll see what happens.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: And at Disney, it was a highly measured environment, and uh it was clear pretty quickly if you couldn't do the job.
48:38
SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, he was taking a risk and I was taking a risk, but we both loved it, and I learned over time when people anyone asked me about him, I said he is great, he taught me everything I know about leadership, and vice versa.
48:49
SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a lot to be said for supporting each other rather than making excuses for yourself of why you got somewhere.
48:55
SPEAKER_01: And now I feel the responsibility.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: I feel responsibility for people I talk to.
49:00
SPEAKER_01: It's pay it forward.
49:01
SPEAKER_01: I anyone calls me, I have a conversation with them, I'll get on the phone with anybody and give them some advice or talk to them because I got lots of leaders in my life, including my dad, that helped me along the way.
49:11
SPEAKER_01: And now that I've made it to where I am, it's up to me to help the new the future leaders come through.
49:15
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's just good karma.
49:17
SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's so easy today to connect with almost anybody.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's so so much easier than it was when we when we grew up as kids.
49:24
SPEAKER_00: There was no social media, there was no Facebook, there was no email when I was a kid.
49:29
SPEAKER_00: And it's so easy just to at least build some type of connection with somebody.
49:34
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we wouldn't we wouldn't be talking on this podcast interview right now if it wasn't for Jody Mayberry.
49:39
SPEAKER_00: And I wouldn't have gotten connected with Jody if if it wasn't for well, I don't remember who connected me with Jody.
49:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, you you kind of forget sometimes like how you connect with people, but you're wired that way.
49:50
SPEAKER_01: You know that uh you you can't go into these relationships networking about thinking about what's in it for you.
49:56
SPEAKER_01: You have to go into it saying, I want to connect because I I may be able to help this person and they may be able to help me, and maybe not, but you can't you can't base it on that.
50:05
SPEAKER_01: You have to base it on goodwill, and that's that's something I've been really impressed with in my new lifestyle as being an entrepreneur, how open and generous people have been with their time and their knowledge.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: And you know, at Disney, everything is intellectual property and everything's confidential and everything's proprietary.
50:22
SPEAKER_01: And when I got out in the real world, there's so many people who just opened up and said, Yeah, I'll help you do whatever you want to do, and I I help them, and it's a win-win for everyone.
50:30
SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes people just don't have the confidence just to ask, send the email.
50:36
SPEAKER_01: And a quick story on that.
50:37
SPEAKER_01: When I wrote my book, um, I sent an email to Mary Barra.
50:42
SPEAKER_01: She's the CEO of General Motors, and I had met her briefly three years ago.
50:47
SPEAKER_01: Her and her family were at the Magic Kingdom, and I gave them a tour of the tunnel, and uh I hadn't talked with her since.
50:54
SPEAKER_01: And I sent and I just said, Well, what the heck?
50:56
SPEAKER_01: I sent her an email.
50:57
SPEAKER_01: I said, Good good morning, Mary.
50:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we met a few years ago with your husband and your son and your daughter, and I just wrote a book, and I'm looking for someone to do the forward, and here's what it's about.
51:07
SPEAKER_01: And I was wondering if you're interested.
51:09
SPEAKER_01: And the next morning, within less than 24 hours later, now I don't know if she wrote the email, but Dan, good to hear from you again.
51:17
SPEAKER_01: Um uh uh congratulations on your book.
51:20
SPEAKER_01: I know that's a lot of work.
51:21
SPEAKER_01: I'm really busy right now, won't be able to do that, but I wish you the best of luck.
51:25
SPEAKER_01: And it's the best rejection note I've ever gotten.
51:28
SPEAKER_01: Um and it once again, that role modeling.
51:31
SPEAKER_01: She was role modeling, like if the CEO of General Motors either can respond to an email, and this was like the unions were going on strike and all this stuff.
51:40
SPEAKER_01: So either she responded or had someone on her team, but the fact that she responded at all for me made me say, you know what, it's that's that's just basic courtesy.
51:48
SPEAKER_01: And I think um I asked, she didn't end up doing what I was hoping she would do.
51:54
SPEAKER_01: And I got uh General Lloyd Austin, who's a four-star general, to do it for me.
51:57
SPEAKER_01: I found someone eventually.
51:59
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
51:59
SPEAKER_01: But but uh she is uh that's that's pretty cool.
52:02
SPEAKER_01: So I just tell people don't assume that just because people are in certain positions, they're not accessible to you.
52:09
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, they may not respond, they may say no, but I think uh there's no reason not to take those chances and go meet people.
52:15
SPEAKER_01: And you you open one door and 10 more doors open.
52:17
SPEAKER_01: That you create your own luck that way.
52:19
SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
52:20
SPEAKER_00: I I couldn't agree more.
52:22
SPEAKER_00: Well, Dan, this has been a blast.
52:23
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I could talk to you for hours and hours and hours just about all things Disney and culture and leadership, because I just love all this stuff.
52:30
SPEAKER_00: How can people connect with you and find out more about your work and also your upcoming book?
52:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so everything you need to know about me is at dancockrell.com.
52:40
SPEAKER_01: Uh d-a-n-c-o-c-e-r-e-l-l.com.
52:45
SPEAKER_01: And if you want to hear a little more about what my dad's doing, it's leecockrel.com.
52:50
SPEAKER_01: You know, we don't we make things very simple.
52:53
SPEAKER_01: And uh my wife and I are really starting to work together much more.
52:56
SPEAKER_01: Um, as I joke, halfway joke, we've been married for almost 27 years and we've successfully figured that out.
53:02
SPEAKER_01: But boy, it took us a year and a half to figure out how to work together.
53:05
SPEAKER_01: That's a whole different dynamic.
53:06
SPEAKER_01: But we're working closely together now, and soon to be launching in the next few months will be cockerelconsulting.com.
53:12
SPEAKER_01: But uh Valerie's featured on my website, and I'm on there.
53:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh, you can sign up for my article of the week.
53:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, I uh uh on that page, I send out an article every uh Friday morning.
53:22
SPEAKER_01: I've been doing that for 24 years now, sending an article to my team.
53:26
SPEAKER_01: And when I left Disney, I decided to continue to do that.
53:28
SPEAKER_01: That's a free article.
53:30
SPEAKER_01: I I collect articles that I think are very insightful and send them out.
53:33
SPEAKER_01: Um, I have a podcast called Come Rain or Shine.
53:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh Jody and I have done a little over 80 episodes now, and that's on iTunes or wherever you listen to your podcasts.
53:43
SPEAKER_01: And uh and you can see all my information there.
53:45
SPEAKER_01: My cell phone number is on my website and my email.
53:48
SPEAKER_01: And if people want to connect with me, uh they can and they'll see my uh book details, and uh, I'll keep everything updated on the uh on the website about where the book is and the release date is August 11th of this year, and hopefully I'll have some author books in hand sooner available for uh people who want to get that sooner.
54:05
SPEAKER_00: Very cool.
54:06
SPEAKER_00: Man, you've got a lot of stuff going on, so I'm so excited about your book coming out and all the things that you're gonna be launching in the next year or so.
54:13
SPEAKER_00: Dan, thanks again for being on the show today.
54:15
SPEAKER_00: This has been great.
54:16
SPEAKER_00: I really appreciate your time.
54:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks for having me, and I hope everyone enjoyed it, and thanks for uh spending time with us.
54:22
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
54:22
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.
54:25
SPEAKER_00: Hey, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Dan.
54:28
SPEAKER_00: I want to share three big takeaways from this conversation.
54:32
SPEAKER_00: Number one is the importance of your health.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: Now, as I'm recording this, I am 46 years old, and I'm at that stage of life where men start to oftentimes have a major crisis with their health.
54:45
SPEAKER_00: And I have to tell you, this point of health and energy really hit home with me.
54:50
SPEAKER_00: I have, just to be totally transparent with you, I've struggled with my eating and my exercise and to some degree my weight for probably 15 years or so.
54:59
SPEAKER_00: And as I say that, it sounds like I'm in a state of denial.
55:03
SPEAKER_00: You know, I've struggled with my weight to some degree.
55:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, the point is that I weigh too much and I need to lose some weight.
55:10
SPEAKER_00: Um that just there's no other way to slice it except to just say that outright.
55:15
SPEAKER_00: At times I've made some good progress, but it's been an ongoing issue.
55:18
SPEAKER_00: I can be very disciplined in other areas of my life, but when it comes to my eating and exercise and all that stuff, I really wrestle and I struggle with it because I mean, let's face it, McDonald's tastes really good.
55:29
SPEAKER_00: Ice cream and pizza taste really good, but it also can give you a heart attack that can end your life, which is not good.
55:35
SPEAKER_00: And and of course, Dan talked about that on this episode.
55:38
SPEAKER_00: So if you struggle with this with if you struggle in this area as I do, so if you struggle in this area as I do, then let's take note of what Dan said and make our health more of a priority.
55:51
SPEAKER_00: Or we might find ourselves in a crisis.
55:54
SPEAKER_00: I'm taking steps to do this, and I hope I I'm taking I'm taking steps to do this, and I hope that you do as well.
56:04
SPEAKER_00: Takeaway number two, everyone brings a certain type of energy to the room.
56:11
SPEAKER_00: Now, this was an insight that I had never heard before, and when he said this, I thought this was really profound.
56:18
SPEAKER_00: But yet it's it's such an obvious insight.
56:23
SPEAKER_00: Takeaway number two, everyone brings a certain type of energy to the room.
56:28
SPEAKER_00: Now, this was an insight that I had honestly never heard before and never really thought about, and it's really profound.
56:35
SPEAKER_00: As I think about my experience in different settings and workplaces over the years, it's really, really true.
56:41
SPEAKER_00: I have worked with people who, whenever they walk into a room, they bring a positive, friendly energy that lifts up everybody else and they immediately make things better.
56:52
SPEAKER_00: And I have also worked with people who bring a negative energy to the room as soon as they walk in.
56:57
SPEAKER_00: And maybe they constantly frown or they complain all the time, but the point is that they bring a negative energy into that environment.
57:04
SPEAKER_00: At the college where I work, we once had a staff person who was always mad about something.
57:09
SPEAKER_00: They were always irritated.
57:11
SPEAKER_00: And even if this person wore a smile, you could tell there was anger always bubbling just underneath the surface.
57:18
SPEAKER_00: And every time this person walked into a room, the tension level immediately went up and they they made everybody kind of uncomfortable.
57:26
SPEAKER_00: So one way that we can evaluate people and whether they're a good fit for our team is by asking what kind of energy do they bring to the room?
57:34
SPEAKER_00: And Dan says that when it comes to hiring, that we should hire people who are already bringing a positive energy into the room.
57:42
SPEAKER_00: Because in reality, and this is what my experience says, and probably what your experience says also, is that people fundamentally don't change in terms of the type of energy that they bring.
57:54
SPEAKER_00: If someone as a younger person has a negative disposition, it's going to be really tough to change that.
58:00
SPEAKER_00: They're probably going to have that disposition their entire life.
58:03
SPEAKER_00: If someone basically has a sunny positive disposition, probably they're going to maintain that same kind of disposition their whole life.
58:11
SPEAKER_00: So, in other words, we shouldn't hire people thinking, oh, they're kind of negative right now, they're kind of a complainer, they're kind of bitter and irritable.
58:20
SPEAKER_00: But we'll change them.
58:21
SPEAKER_00: The reality is that you probably will not change them.
58:24
SPEAKER_00: And this really goes back to the whole issue of emotional intelligence and hiring people who know that it's not just about their talents and skills, it's also about their ability to work with people and to get along with people and who see it as their responsibility to bring a positive energy to their team and to their environment.
58:43
SPEAKER_00: Now, before I move on to the third takeaway, let me speak for a second to the introverts who are listening.
58:50
SPEAKER_00: I'm an introvert, absolutely, but listen to me, my fellow introverts.
58:55
SPEAKER_00: Please hear me out on this.
58:57
SPEAKER_00: We cannot let our personalities hold us back and have a negative impact on people.
59:02
SPEAKER_00: So many of us introverts, we automatically blame a lack of progress in our lives.
59:08
SPEAKER_00: We blame that on social anxiety, we blame it on being an introvert, or we blame it on something else that's associated with our personality.
59:15
SPEAKER_00: But we cannot let that be an excuse.
59:17
SPEAKER_00: We cannot let that hold us back.
59:20
SPEAKER_00: Yes, it does take extra emotional energy for us to engage with people.
59:24
SPEAKER_00: That is a fact.
59:25
SPEAKER_00: That's just a cold hard fact of how we are wired.
59:28
SPEAKER_00: That's a fact of our personalities.
59:31
SPEAKER_00: But here's here's also a cold hard fact.
59:34
SPEAKER_00: We're not going to have a successful business if we can't engage positively with people.
59:40
SPEAKER_00: We're not going to have a successful business if we can't learn to love people more and have more empathy and more kindness and you know, if we can't learn to get out of our own heads and smile and engage proactively and in a healthy way with people.
59:54
SPEAKER_00: Many introverts feel emotionally exhausted all the time because they're not doing work they love and they're not hanging out with people who energize them.
1:00:02
SPEAKER_00: So I don't think the issue is always the fact that we're in is the fact that we're introverts.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_00: I think the issue for introverts many times is that they're just not doing things that that energize them and that they're not hanging out with people who energize them and who are taking them to a higher level.
1:00:16
SPEAKER_00: So I think sometimes if we feel like we're not succeeding and we feel like we're not making progress, let's not just blame our personalities and act like we're victims and martyrs of our own psychology.
1:00:28
SPEAKER_00: I think it's much more a matter of saying, hey, yes, I'm an introvert, but am I doing work that really energizes me?
1:00:34
SPEAKER_00: Am I doing something that brings joy and positive energy into my life?
1:00:38
SPEAKER_00: Am I hanging around people?
1:00:39
SPEAKER_00: Am I spending time around people who are positive?
1:00:43
SPEAKER_00: Or am I spending time around people who are kind of negative and complainers?
1:00:46
SPEAKER_00: Because if we are, then man, the that's only going to feed into our perception that something else is holding us back.
1:00:54
SPEAKER_00: So my encouragement to myself and to all the introverts listening is don't let your personality be an excuse that holds back your success.
1:01:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's move on to takeaway number three.
1:01:06
SPEAKER_00: As you can tell, I'm passionate about that topic.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_00: Obviously.
1:01:11
SPEAKER_00: Takeaway number three is tell clients the truth.
1:01:14
SPEAKER_00: Now, this was an interesting observation that really made an impact on me.
1:01:18
SPEAKER_00: Dan said that our job with clients is to tell them the truth, and our job is to make them better.
1:01:24
SPEAKER_00: Whenever we work with clients, we must tell them that we're going to be candid with them.
1:01:28
SPEAKER_00: We must tell them that we're not there to make them happy, but but we're there to make them better.
1:01:33
SPEAKER_00: And that really stuck out with me because I'm working with clients and I I can't recall my ever having said that directly to a client, but now I'm going to start really communicating that much better.
1:01:44
SPEAKER_00: Um, that I want the best for them and and sometimes that involves pointing out something that needs corrected or that needs fixing.
1:01:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, otherwise they wouldn't need me in their life if everything was great, but I I'm there to help add value to them in some way.
1:01:59
SPEAKER_00: People appreciate that.
1:02:00
SPEAKER_00: People appreciate knowing that we care about them and that we want the best for them.
1:02:04
SPEAKER_00: And if we do this, they will know that we have their best interest in mind.
1:02:10
SPEAKER_00: Now, again, part of this goes back to the whole introvert thing.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_00: You know, I'm a person who uh who hates conflict.
1:02:17
SPEAKER_00: Like when I was growing up, the worst thing in the world for me was to have conflict with somebody.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_00: I hated it whenever people were fighting or arguing.
1:02:24
SPEAKER_00: I still hate it.
1:02:25
SPEAKER_00: Like it just I just bristle at the idea of tension between people.
1:02:29
SPEAKER_00: But the fact of the matter is that if we're going to be successful with our clients, if we're going to have a successful business, there is going to be tension.
1:02:36
SPEAKER_00: And at times we're going to have to say things that make people unhappy because that is what's required for improvement.
1:02:43
SPEAKER_00: It truly is.
1:02:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that that's just how relationships and psychology work.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_00: Is that sometimes we need to be told the uncomfortable truth if we're going to be better.
1:02:52
SPEAKER_00: And we have to be willing to tell people the truth if we want to help them to be better as well.
1:02:58
SPEAKER_00: So lots of lots of stuff to think about in this episode.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's why I really want to encourage you to to get Dan's book whenever it comes out in August, because it's just it's full of this kind of kind of it's full of this kind of really great insights about human nature and relationships and work and all this really, really good stuff.
1:03:18
SPEAKER_00: So don't let the fact that that kind of the the surface topic is Disney, don't let that fool you.
1:03:23
SPEAKER_00: We think of Disney as, you know, kind of fun and uh you know, lightheartedness and movies and stories and things like that.
1:03:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, but this is a very it's actually a very deep leadership book.
1:03:36
SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of really, really good stuff there.
1:03:38
SPEAKER_00: And uh I can't wait for you to get it into your hands when it uh I can't wait for you to get it whenever it's released uh later this summer.
1:03:45
SPEAKER_00: All right, friends, this was a great episode.
1:03:48
SPEAKER_00: I I absolutely love talking with Dan.
1:03:50
SPEAKER_00: And I want to thank Dan for taking time out of his schedule to share with us on this episode.
1:03:56
SPEAKER_00: Make sure and check out his site, dancockerell.com, where you'll also find a link to his new book that I've mentioned a couple times.
1:04:04
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, check out his podcast.
1:04:05
SPEAKER_00: It's called Come, Rain, or Shine.
1:04:07
SPEAKER_00: He co-hosts it with Jody Mayberry, uh, who was actually on the show a little while back.
1:04:12
SPEAKER_00: So check that out as well.
1:04:13
SPEAKER_00: Lots of lots of good stuff that uh Dan's got for us.
1:04:16
SPEAKER_00: And by the way, thank you for listening to the show.
1:04:18
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate your time and attention.
1:04:21
SPEAKER_00: As always, remember that you can find lots more resources for writers, creatives, and business people at KentSanders.net.
1:04:28
SPEAKER_00: And until next time, remember that your writing has the power to change people's lives.
1:04:33
SPEAKER_00: I'll see you in the next episode.