Latest / 360 with Katie Woolf / Katie Woolf speaks to ICAC Commissioner Ken Flemming

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Katie Woolf speaks to ICAC Commissioner Ken Flemming · 360 with Katie Woolf

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Joining us in the studio right now is the Northern
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Territories KAC Commissioner Ken Fleming.
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: Good morning, morning Katie, and congratulations on your AO.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Thank you very much.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: You cool signed aoo.
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: No, thank you very much. Now now, I was surprised
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: over the Christmas break to see that you've decided that
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  Speaker 1: you're going to retire. What made your decision.
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: I'm seventy five this year and forty four years of practice.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: It's getting towards that time.
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and we all know you as the KAC Commissioner.
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  Speaker 1: But you've got a long and illustrious career in law.
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  Speaker 2: Long career, yeah, very long one, and I've done some
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  Speaker 2: very interesting things. I've had a wonderful career out of
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  Speaker 2: being a barrister in m QC.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah wow. And so seventy five you thought now's the time,
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  Speaker 1: but not quite yet. Six months. You're still here for
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: another six months.
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  Speaker 2: Aren't you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to give the government ample time to find
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: a replacement, yep, because if they're looking for somebody who
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  Speaker 2: is senior, they will have an obligation to unload obligations
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  Speaker 2: that they've already got absolutely before they come.
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  Speaker 1: Now, talk us through how things have been going, obviously
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  Speaker 1: in your time as the IKA Commissioner. Where are things
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  Speaker 1: out sort of at the moment, are you happy with
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  Speaker 1: the progress that the office has made?
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  Speaker 2: Yes, I am. And just a little bit of history.
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  Speaker 2: I started on the first of July twenty eighteen, and
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  Speaker 2: there was just me, and there was just me until
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  Speaker 2: the beginning of two thousand and nineteen, except for three
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  Speaker 2: staff members who came over from the old pid SO,
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  Speaker 2: and that happened in November, the end of November. The
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  Speaker 2: Act commenced at the end of November twenty eighteen, so
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  Speaker 2: we had to set about building a whole office. The
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  Speaker 2: original establishment had about twelve people. In fact, that proved
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  Speaker 2: to be totally inadequate very quickly. And what we had
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  Speaker 2: to do is to establish an office which is now
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  Speaker 2: twenty nine people and we have the capacity to bring
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  Speaker 2: in consultants to help us as well.
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  Speaker 1: And so at the moment, how many I know you
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  Speaker 1: and I have talked numbers on numerous occasions when you've
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  Speaker 1: come into the studio. How many cases is the IKAK
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  Speaker 1: investigating at the moment.
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  Speaker 2: All right, I'll give you a couple of statistics. We
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  Speaker 2: passed one thousand reports yesterday since the beginning of the
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  Speaker 2: Act of that thousand reports two hundred and seventy four
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  Speaker 2: allegations have been taken up by us to investigate in
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  Speaker 2: some form or another. By that, I mean we are
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  Speaker 2: doing some, but we also refer matters back into agencies.
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  Speaker 2: We can refer matters to the police or to any
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  Speaker 2: other investigative body who is somebody we can do, somebody
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  Speaker 2: who's nominated under the Act that we can refer something to.
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  Speaker 1: And so of that two hundred and seventy four, the
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  Speaker 1: ones that you then have referred to other agencies sort
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  Speaker 1: of what happens in those cases very often it seems
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  Speaker 1: like they don't really become public.
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  Speaker 2: Often they don't what we do, and this is something
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  Speaker 2: which gives us a capacity to oversight and keep a
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  Speaker 2: view of what's happening. We can give directions to that
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  Speaker 2: agency on how to investigate, on what to investigate, and
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  Speaker 2: then to report back to us on their findings, and
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  Speaker 2: then what is their intention going forward from there?
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  Speaker 1: And have you been satisfied with their responses as you've
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  Speaker 1: done that, Yes, in.
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  Speaker 2: The main, yes, I'm still not satisfied with the reporting
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  Speaker 2: in the first place from all agencies. There are some
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  Speaker 2: and you look at our statistics, and you look at
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  Speaker 2: the source of the reports, and you think, but surely,
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  Speaker 2: surely there would have been some report come to you
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  Speaker 2: of improper conduct estified by the Act.
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  Speaker 1: So do you reckon that there's departments at the moment
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  Speaker 1: that maybe you have turned a blind eye to some
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  Speaker 1: of some of the things that are being reported to
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  Speaker 1: the IKAK.
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  Speaker 2: Now, the i CAK isn't a popular body, and nobody
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  Speaker 2: particularly wants somebody looking over their shoulder. And we're winning,
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  Speaker 2: but there have been people who have been slow to
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  Speaker 2: come on board.
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  Speaker 1: Now there's been some fairly fairly big investigations that you've
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  Speaker 1: obviously that have become quite public. You said, I think
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  Speaker 1: you said that there's two hundred and seventy four allegations
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  Speaker 1: which were taken up and then then going into different areas.
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  Speaker 1: At the moment, are are there major investigations that you've
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  Speaker 1: got underway that the office has got underway?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, we should. I had to leave enough time to
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  Speaker 2: complete matters that I'm looking at as well. That's the
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  Speaker 2: other reason for giving such a long period of time.
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  Speaker 2: There are five reports that we should hand down before
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  Speaker 2: I leave, and there are another three matters which may
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  Speaker 2: be coming close to completion before I leave as well.
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  Speaker 2: Are there matters that we've chosen to make public?
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  Speaker 1: So three that will be made public? Are they quite?
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  Speaker 1: Are they quite? Big? Ones that will garner quite a
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  Speaker 1: bit of public interest?
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  Speaker 2: Five matters will be sorry, and then an additional three.
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  Speaker 2: So yes, the five matters will garner a lot of
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  Speaker 2: public interest.
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  Speaker 1: Now, I know you won't tell me, but I always
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  Speaker 1: ask is there anything you can tell us about those
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  Speaker 1: at the moment? Not yet, Katie, you know I'll always
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  Speaker 1: try so. And you're hoping to have all of those
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  Speaker 1: complete by the time your retirement comes. Now that's in July,
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  Speaker 1: is nation July? Yes, so you are hoping to have
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  Speaker 1: those complete by then. What's going to be the process
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  Speaker 1: in terms of who takes over as the IK commissioner.
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  Speaker 2: That selection process is about to kick off, we're told,
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  Speaker 2: I hope we're consulted about who should be there, because
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  Speaker 2: it's a very unusual position to occupy because the person
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  Speaker 2: has to have a good legal background, a good criminal
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  Speaker 2: law background, and hopefully understand the processes of the courts
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  Speaker 2: and of inquiries. But in addition into that, it's essentially
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  Speaker 2: an investigative body. So the person who takes over should
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  Speaker 2: be a person who understands at least the investigative process.
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  Speaker 2: If they don't know every aspect of it, yep, they
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  Speaker 2: have to be prepared to sit and listen and take
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  Speaker 2: the advice of the investigators.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm assuming it's probably best to get somebody from interstate,
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  Speaker 1: as was the case when you were announced as the commissioner,
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  Speaker 1: because we essentially need somebody who's a little bit removed
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  Speaker 1: I suppose from some of the things that need to
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  Speaker 1: be investigated. Is that sort of a correct assumption.
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  Speaker 2: I agree with that, yes, yeah, is.
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  Speaker 1: It going to be Actually, I suppose What I more
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  Speaker 1: want to know, has there been anything that sort of
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  Speaker 1: surprised you since coming in as the EKAC commissioner in
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  Speaker 1: the Northern Territory? An anything that you maybe weren't expecting.
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  Speaker 2: You can accept intellectually two things, and I was told
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  Speaker 2: that there are two things about the terrory that I
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: had to understand. One was the remoteness of the territory,
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  Speaker 2: and two was the one degree of separation. You can
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  Speaker 2: accept that intellectually, but it's not until you're actually on
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  Speaker 2: the ground that you can see the absolute remoteness and
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  Speaker 2: the complexities that that creates in terms of conflict of interest.
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  Speaker 2: I note that the most significant reports that we've had,
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  Speaker 2: almost about one hundred and thirty eight reports that we've had,
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  Speaker 2: are about conflict of interest. Now, that surprised me, and
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  Speaker 2: it also surprised me of the quality of people that
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  Speaker 2: there are here, and we've managed to put together quite
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  Speaker 2: an extraordinary team of people. People have wanted to come
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  Speaker 2: to us. They have almost unanimously said that they've been
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  Speaker 2: waiting for an integrity agency. They want to work for us,
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  Speaker 2: and they're very, very high quality people. So I was
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  Speaker 2: surprised that I needed to go to the size of
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  Speaker 2: the organization, and then I was surprised that the quality
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  Speaker 2: of the people were here. Actually, and that's a bit
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  Speaker 2: ignorant of me to say, because there are wonderful and
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  Speaker 2: highly qualified people in the territory. Shouldn't have surprised me.
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  Speaker 1: Now, has there been any sort of low lights for
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  Speaker 1: you since being the IKA Commissioner.
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  Speaker 2: Some of the battles that we've had to face, as
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  Speaker 2: I've said already this morning somewhere else, some of them
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  Speaker 2: are my doing. Because being a barrister and sole practice
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  Speaker 2: doesn't equip you to become part of bureaucracy. So that
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  Speaker 2: required a lot of understanding on my part, and I've
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  Speaker 2: made mistakes in some of those areas. I didn't realize
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  Speaker 2: how significant policy was. We've got fifty or sixty policies
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  Speaker 2: in place that we had to write about different aspects
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  Speaker 2: of a functioning agency, and I should have perhaps known
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  Speaker 2: that there would be such things. But those things have
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  Speaker 2: been a surprise. They've taken up much time and resources
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  Speaker 2: to get those things going, which has interfered with the
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  Speaker 2: day to day activities that we should be doing the investigations. However,
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  Speaker 2: it's now at a point where those things are all
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  Speaker 2: in place, a budget is in place, a highly efficient
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  Speaker 2: and functioning offices in place, and a future budget is
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  Speaker 2: in place as well.
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  Speaker 1: One of the things that you did cop some criticism
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  Speaker 1: about was speaking at a rally in Alice Springs. Regret
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  Speaker 1: doing that, Katie.
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  Speaker 2: Can I say this, that's still the subject of a
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  Speaker 2: matter in court, and I won't say anything about that,
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  Speaker 2: at least until after a court case has been heard.
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  Speaker 2: A person is entitled to go to court unencumbered by
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  Speaker 2: extraneous comments made. For example, now.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, fair enough, well, Ken, we really appreciate the time
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  Speaker 1: that you've given us as the KA Commissioner, but I
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  Speaker 1: reckon we'll be seeing you again anyway over the next
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  Speaker 1: six months.
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  Speaker 2: You will again. As I have said somewhere else this morning,
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  Speaker 2: the press, the media has been a very important part
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  Speaker 2: of my function, because very early on in the act
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  Speaker 2: it says part of my function is educational, and I
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  Speaker 2: consider this no better educational process than coming and talking
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  Speaker 2: with you and being quizzed. So thank you as well well.
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  Speaker 1: We appreciate the time you've given us, and we will
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  Speaker 1: talk to you again in the very near future. Ken Fleming,
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  Speaker 1: the YKAT Commissioner here in the Northern Territory, thank you
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  Speaker 1: for your time.
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  Speaker 2: Thanks Gedding