Latest / Reframe First / Marcin Dakowski | The human side of AI: leadership in the age of change

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Marcin Dakowski | The human side of AI: leadership in the age of change · Reframe First

• Oleksij Rak: Hi, my name is Surgiy and I will be hosting today's episode of Reframe First and I have with me Marcin who led teams at Olex Group, Allegro among used to consult Marcin at McKinsey and Kearney, And now you're an coach and advisor to C-level Cool. So listen, when I wanted to make this episode about the human of AI, it was the ⁓ code it's like how AI actually people ⁓ and were first choice, like the obvious choice, right? Because you write and you speak a lot about the human side of things, of leadership, ⁓ of team management and so and so on. And then you agreed. What was the reason that you Apart from being a of mine. ⁓ you yeah, of but like maybe it's ⁓ maybe something you discuss with your clients or you think about the human side of the idea, you know, what's going on actually. ⁓ Marcin Dakowski: like him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we discussed it quite a lot recently. There was this fantasy that I will not have to touch AI at all, but this is of course long, long, and interconnected in many ways actually, even though we don't think about it that much. Cause everyone is talking about AI and prompting and cloud and how to automate all stuff, et cetera, et cetera. And it makes a lot of sense. I do it myself. But I believe that people are spot here. ⁓ don't spend enough time. Even though we understand how much will be changed due to AI, we kind of try to behave like it will not affect us. You know, we selling all this AI tools as a efficiency tool. ⁓ But tools aren't giving us more time or... meaning just give us more work, right? So think that AI has enormous potential to our lives and it has quite enormous potential to destroy it. There is this term which is called anxiety and this is not necessarily about ⁓ losing jobs but this more about losing ⁓ Oleksij Rak: Hmm? Marcin Dakowski: identity to some extent, you know, you were doing something for the last 20 years or so. you finished graduated from studies and you know, you're an expert in something and now you just buy $20 Claude account and is doing it all for you, right? So this is like, I think there's pretty of anxiety in place regarding what will happen to us, but not necessarily that we will lose jobs, which is also part of the story. But also of, I tried to say that we are basing lots of our self-esteem on we doing. When we are meeting people, most of the time, somewhere across first questions, will be asked, what are we doing? Or, where do we work or And now it gets, Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Marcin Dakowski: gets more tricky basically. So I think it's very interesting topic to discuss. Oleksij Rak: We had this lady who was consulting us as a here at Rebix and had like a ⁓ psychology education, right? And used to talk about this like three sides of you. She would draw like three shapes. So there is like me and there is like people I care and there is like what I do and they're... most people they are of equal importance. I'm ⁓ and there is work that I do. And there are people that I care about, are my friends and my family. To me feels like that ⁓ third circle kind of threatened. Is it something? Marcin Dakowski: we do at work is threatened, but also ⁓ we think of ourselves is threatened. ⁓ most when you go to a company and you see that there are some motivational issues around engagement, etc. You basically ask the CEO, what's the purpose of this company? Do people understand this purpose? Oleksij Rak: Mm. Okay, okay. Marcin Dakowski: Most of the time he will tell you or she will tell you that of course everyone understands it. Then I have this really lovely exercise. We take a bunch of A4 sheets of paper and we go around the office and we ask the same questions to everyone. And then we collect the papers and then we sit down back in the board room and you can only imagine, right? Or ⁓ people write there. And second that I ask is like, do people understand ⁓ Oleksij Rak: Yeah, I can't. I can't. Marcin Dakowski: their role in providing the success that we are all aiming at, right? yeah, so we are confused because we don't necessarily what is being from us. When you think of a role of manager, you would expect that manager will of course AI, but he or she will also be very much into combining these new AI skills in the team with the current skills of people and making sure that it cooperates well together. You know, when you think of, you know, recruitment and onboarding, yeah, you need to onboard a new person and it's for this person, but it's also for the team. So the team understands what this person is here for and what this person will be doing with us and what skills it... does have, does have or he does have, right? Not it, because this is AI, right? ⁓ now when you think of AI, ⁓ is a new dude in the room, basically, and you have no clue. You don't know, like, he today he knows much more than he used to know yesterday. He just learned overnight so many things, or you just ask him to, you know, You just build an agent in five minutes and you just ask him to, know, take insights from this expert, that expert and five other experts. And you create a board of your marketing experts that support you. And are lost because this is some, you know, I recently had a lovely coffee with a ⁓ coffee a friend of mine who is a marketing strategist. And he says that work that he used to do in one month now he can do in one day. This is, this is pretty frightened. I've recently set up my own website. and, and previously I would need to call some ⁓ right? Do it for me. ⁓ it is like, long as we are in this moment that AI helps me and I don't need people that much anymore. It's probably quite good for me, but it's not quite good for these people. Right. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, tech person. Marcin Dakowski: And quite soon, you know, it would be naive to think, oh, it will, I will never be in the place. Most probably I'll be in the place, you know, it's like, unless I do something extraordinary in some extraordinary way, I'll probably to some extent be replaced by AI quite soon. And if I learned over years to build all my position, what I... tell myself about me, I position myself against others, et cetera. If I based it all on my education, which can be replaced right now by AI that could ⁓ over, you know this Alpha Go, right? This computer who won in this which is called Go or Go, I don't know how it's called. Yeah, so this ⁓ famous number of. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, it's from a while ago. Marcin Dakowski: 37 or something, which is like this, this Alpha Go machine has done something that probably no human would ever do, even if was allowed, you know, it was one of possibilities, but you know, it was like, ⁓ you know, it's just, and you are like this go master for the last 20 years or whatever. And there is this machine that, you know, at the beginning, even you didn't really even need ⁓ Oleksij Rak: Hmm? Marcin Dakowski: teach this machine how to play this goal. It's not because like previously what they were doing, they were like, I'm not, you know, technical as you know, but they were like kind of introducing all the knowledge, how to play goal, like lots of cases, et cetera. And now what they do, they just tell goal, hey, start playing and let's see what happens. And they're like strengthening all the good moves and they're like, you know, punishing all the bad guys. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, you have rewards for good moves and you have the punishment for bad moves. Marcin Dakowski: To build this program, don't even need to have a goal, experience or expertise yourself, you know. So it's like, and, and. I think it's, think it's, difficult. think ⁓ going to be difficult for everyone. think it's difficult for everyone already, or like for many people, it's getting quite difficult. And the question is, what do we do about it? But like my, my experience most the time is that we do nothing about it. Like I friends who are loving this AI. Oleksij Rak: Hmm? Marcin Dakowski: a company, there plenty of these companies right now, but basically just introduce AI to different companies. And we are recently talking about adding this module of like psychological safety to the teaching of AI because idea that you will only give AI and it's all and cons, that's basically not true. Oleksij Rak: Okay. Okay, I understand. I honestly don't think the future is as gloomy as we kind of probably painted it here a bit. I think like it's not the topic of this particular conversation, but I've seen it a lot. I know that it's kind of frightening the changes and so on, but usually whenever there was some kind of technological breakthrough, you know, it... It meant that people just have to adapt, have to change whatever they do. Like ⁓ software engineers, just, you know, it just the job kind of the job definition changes or maybe the job changes for some people. But I understand how, you know, how it feels, you know, ⁓ people, how it feels gloomy because of, you know, of job security. And probably not only that, there is also like, there is a, I try to kind of go. Marcin Dakowski: Any, any. Yeah. Oleksij Rak: a bit from the security to what I feel like another thing that is going on, which I call the cognitive overload. You probably have a better term, you know, but there is running that Marcin Dakowski: They call it AI brain fry now. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, I it's better. ⁓ fry is better. I like this term, it's more Gen Z oriented. Anyways, are things that are going on in my opinion. First is there is this running joke that to ⁓ kind of what happened in the AI world yesterday you have to take like a week long vacation just to catch up. And there is the kind of the speed of your work, you mentioned that you yourself of try to automate whatever you do, it's tough you, it's tough on your brain. Like for me, also, can do more now because I kind of this ⁓ like mechanical ⁓ stuff whatever is, know, less creative or less strategic, whatever. But then you kind of have to juggle in your head, have to juggle many things that you do and the load on your brain kind of, you know, gotten bigger. ⁓ do see this problem? Like, is it something? Marcin Dakowski: Yeah, it's funny enough, it's connected to the previous subject, right? Because it's like feeling overwhelmed can contribute to your anxiety. So I'm not just telling you to the previous thing just for two minutes. I'm not saying it will get that gloomy. Like, honestly, I don't know, will it get that gloomy or not? Some people say it will be very gloomy. But you know, like 89 % of workers are concerned about job security due to AI. Oleksij Rak: Mm. Okay, yeah. Marcin Dakowski: Over 40%, as far as I remember, know someone who has lost job because of AI. There are like over 50 % of people who say that their employer only somewhat explains to them what's happening with AI plans, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, it's not really about is it gloomy or it's not gloomy. It's about what people believe about it. Oleksij Rak: Okay, okay. Marcin Dakowski: what they think about it. And honestly, our anxieties are quite often not very rational, right? But this is not the nature of anxiety, is it? still something is happening, something new is happening. And you know, like when work in organizations, you know that every change, any change brings lots of trouble and it brings lots of resistance. So believing that this change of AI for some magical reason will not bring any resistance. It's just stupid because the change is much more, you know, vivid and than any other change that you have. It's quite a big change, you know, it's like if half the things that I used to do now are just done by my cloth called ⁓ agents, know, it's like, it's quite a big change. So it will bring lots of benefits, but also it will bring Oleksij Rak: It's a big change, can agree that it's a huge change, Marcin Dakowski: anxiety, will bring some ambivalence, right? It bring some good things and some bad things. And the only thing I'm saying, I'm not saying AI is bad, I actually quite love it and it's very helpful. And, you know, I don't need, you know, not great to but I don't need so many people to work with because, know, like this. But we should kind of close our eyes towards the anxiety it creates, right? We should be aware of fact that it is... ⁓ It is happening. people, you know, we have this you know, this Institute, are like doing lots of research, but they're also researching the motivation and engagement. And now the engagement of people around the world is around 20%, which is really rubbish, you know, managers were over 30 % quite recently. And now there are nine percentage points down in the last few years or so. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Marcin Dakowski: So if we believe that AI will not affect these numbers even more, it means that we are blind. So this is we should discuss and also bring this additional factor to the discussion about AI, believe. Oleksij Rak: Okay, it's a lot. I feel like have brain fry. ⁓ it's a bad thing. I'm nodding, but also have to process all this information, right? ⁓ Marcin Dakowski: Ha Brain fight, brain fight. Yeah, know, brain fry is something that, especially now, right, because you need to process much more. Brain fry is something I actually, I've started to feel because before someone told me there is this password of brain fry. So sometimes I'm like sitting in the evening and I just, I've done so, don't want to show off, right, but I've done so ⁓ work during this day, so you know. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Marcin Dakowski: And my brain is just jumping through tens of different. And I also have to be a bit, you know, working with Claude Cote. I need to be a bit more technical than I actually am. So, you know, there is components of this technicality. Let's call it way. ⁓ I kind of, you know, it's like all the, all this efficiency or productivity tools. Like I'm not talking only about AI, but you know, like. calendars and asanas and Mondays of this world. They were supposed to free up our time towards doing things. When I work with, when I work with C-level people, almost everyone is sick this running the time. We kind of ⁓ build value on fast can run. And the capacity, you know, the power of a good manager is someone who can like... Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. can sit down and it's... yeah... reflect. Marcin Dakowski: But, but you can also, you need to also sit down and reflect and see what's happening. What's happening to my team. Do they know what they are doing? Do they understand what they are doing? They understand the why behind, do they understand the how? Do they, you know, it's like, do they understand how they personally should contribute to it? Because if I'm running all the time, it's like, and, and, you know, only if we used AI that way, that would be awesome because we are doing lots of rubbish. Oleksij Rak: and Marcin Dakowski: every day, and we could actually spend this time for reflection. And maybe maybe I'm just having this hypothesis right now that maybe there is something good about this brain fry. Because maybe we are getting to some cognitive limits of we can do with our brains. And we should understand that that's not the way we should go into just adding, adding, adding, adding, adding. It's not about more and more and more. Sometimes it's about less sometimes about Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Marcin Dakowski: more breath and just, you know, connecting to, you know, yourself, your emotions and just feeling what, what decisions you should take. so maybe there are some, you know, good, good sides of, of, of, of this brain fry, whatever. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, but what I think is like we are fortunate enough we manage our own right? ⁓ And the fry we can ⁓ for the part we can pick and choose what we outsource to AI, what ⁓ we don't. What see from team, for example, is they... Well, for the most they can't, right? there is this what people call expectation because we're talking that we should do more of this and less of that. And for the part, what's going on inside from my perspective, maybe you have other perspectives that your bosses just expect more of you. They expect you have this awesome AI tools, you can more code or you can do whatever other tasks. you had to do this integration with that partner in two weeks, can you do it in two days now? so on and so on. So I'm to go into the area, like what do we actually do with that? Because we kind of, I think we shaped the problematic, know, like, well, most of it, ⁓ I'm sure is more, but there is this side of things. And honestly, I... I don't know what's the correct way. As a manager, the job is to help team navigate the uncertainty, help them. I used to think that the job of managers is to remove the obstacles so that the team performs. Marcin Dakowski: And you don't think it anymore? Oleksij Rak: I don't know, I feel a brain fry myself, sometimes I'm myself and if you don't know how to deal with it, how do you actually help the team? it's not that gloomy again. But yeah, I'm ⁓ kind of fishing answers from you, So, with all the job the overload and maybe like... gap in understanding or expectations that your bosses expect you to just deliver more now or do more now and so on. So what we actually do with that? Marcin Dakowski: Yeah, there is this I'm sure. I think it's Marshall Goldsmiths. But I'm not sure. We just called ⁓ What You Here, What Got You There. Oleksij Rak: Okay. I think you suggested this book to me ⁓ like a month when we met or because I this book like yeah. Marcin Dakowski: huh. Yeah, okay. So basically the idea of the book is that you need some sort of skills or capabilities to get to point B from point A, but using the same skills or capabilities to move to point C will actually never happen. Once you got there, it's like a new stage of the game, you may call it, and you need something else to basically make it happen. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Marcin Dakowski: And I believe this is kind of similar with and managers. Basically, when you're a specialist, it's about people telling you what to do and you should do it. And honestly, is not too much, you know, rocket science about it. You just do it and you just do it as quickly as possible, as reliable as possible, as flawless possible. And people are happy, you know, and one you become a manager because you were the best specialist in your team. they thought, you'll be a good manager, which is of course rubbish, but you didn't. ⁓ Oleksij Rak: That's how it happens, yeah, it's not probably not the most correct way, but it's how it goes. Marcin Dakowski: Yeah, it's probably not too much we can do with it. So you just became a manager and I think that it gets more and more important what you want to do with your time. This is, you know, this is a case of successful entrepreneurs. They just, there is a lot of noise around and lots of people tell them what to do, how to do, blah, blah, But they have this ability to just focus on the signal, you may call it, right? Just focus on what's really important rather than just focusing on else. So of there will be like a huge, huge push towards doing But do we really believe, you know, it's like some, I'll give you an example. There is someone coming for a session with me, like a CEO of a big company. Let's say it this way. And he say, oh, I have these five problems that I need to solve today. And he starts to run. He's just like, what to do with this problem? What to do with this problem? We have one hour, you know, so we are running. And I just spent the time for the one, know, as many problems, you know, I didn't talk to you in one month because I was waiting until I have many problems for one hour, right? And then quite often I would tell him, look, we can spend, you know, he's so into these problems that you can barely... Oleksij Rak: You Marcin Dakowski: stop him. But I say, OK, we can do it, but only on the grounds that the last 20 minutes of the session will do it my way. And only then we can just sit down and say, OK, what this problem tell you? What's beneath these problems? How these problems are linked, right? Because it's not about doing more, more, more, and more. And this is the same with AI. At some point, Oleksij Rak: Hmm? Marcin Dakowski: You know, this ability to run and do lots of things is very important in business. But so is the ability to, you know, to get off of this bike or however you call it and just sit down and think. you know, so it's like, it's, it's, I don't really expect that people will stop pushing themselves towards doing more because if we have, if we freed 50 % of our time, maybe it makes sense that we do something more, I'll just ask everyone for more balance, right? And common sense and just like, see, okay, maybe we can do something more, but maybe we can have a bit better discussion because like, know, most the companies that I'm working with, there are two terms which are being confused. And one is productivity and the second is busyness. ⁓ People believe that when they're busy, they're productive. That's not true. I call it the, you know, a headless chicken problem. You know, like everyone is running and they don't know what's, what's happening. You just go around the office. You just give people this A4 sheets of paper to write down the goal of the company. They have no clue. So they are just running and there are, and then we believe that there are not enough people who are running. So we should enlarge our team. We should have 10 people more. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Marcin Dakowski: So there will be 10 more headless chickens running So AI definitely space to start more the that we didn't have time for before. But will it happen? I don't know, like with the companies that I work with, we try to make it happen. I think that most of the companies don't think about it at all. They just, you know, it's, it's, it's basically a nature of capitalism, isn't it? Like, you know, you just want more, more at bar. And, know, thinking isn't like very much of cool value. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. It could be capitalism. could be again, could be again fear, right? Because my competitors will use AI, they will have less whatever burn then I will lose because of margins. Marcin Dakowski: I don't want to sound too philosophical, but think that Capricallity is about fear a lot. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, it's probably a discussion we're gonna have over beers someday. So I'll steer it back. Marcin Dakowski: Yeah, we want more and we are afraid that if we don't do as much as the other company and we don't squeeze this AI as much as the other company will probably die. And, know, there is a lot of this pressure and stuff. we know it from the times before AI and it will be after AI. I think that AI has just ability to make it a bit stronger. So this will create the brain fry and this can... Oleksij Rak: Hmm? Mm-hmm. Marcin Dakowski: killed the engagement in companies, which is already very low. And the reason why it's low is because managers don't spend enough time talking to the people and just making sure that we are aligned and we took all these obstacles we talked about. And now we use AI towards having more time for that. But will we use it? Again, I don't know. I hope so. I don't think so. Oleksij Rak: Some people do. I have a friend, I won't name his name, he works at completely another company, but the company is really slow into AI and he's software engineer and there is a team of, I don't know, 10 or 20 people. And I call him often because I called him often last week because we had to prepare for something and he was always in the car, was like... When do you work? He says I only work for like few hours a day because the company is so slow and then he uses AI a lot and so has more time. I guess you ⁓ just to, yeah, to have another side of how, yeah. ⁓ Marcin Dakowski: Yeah, definitely a good thing is that I spent two to three hours every single day walking right now. I'm not, I'm not spending that much time in front of the computer. I, yeah, yeah. And I talked to Claude and either I do it in English because this is what he understands, or I use whisper flow and I can do it in Polish. You know, it's just like, but Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. And you talk to Claude? ⁓ huh. Mm-hmm. Marcin Dakowski: just works. recently looked at my computer, is here on my right hand side, and I just realized that most probably my next computer won't have a keyboard. It absolutely doesn't make any sense. This whisper flow thing or whatever you use, ⁓ not an agent of the company, but ⁓ it's ⁓ It's great. I dictate all my... Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Marcin Dakowski: all my emails, all my Slack messages towards my communities. And I write to my clients and write with I can just go to the forest 10 minutes, road my house, drive from my house. And ⁓ I just walk in the park and I can work, which is like a big, big change for me. there are definitely, you know, it's like, Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Marcin Dakowski: You know, it's like with everything probably, maybe it's, but it is, right? Some people will it for their better lives. Like I said this ⁓ in the beginning, right? That it has great potential to improve our lives and it has great potential to destroy them. I think that some people will improve their lives vastly. I think that there will be people who will destroy their lives vastly. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, it's how it is with all the big changes that we had previously. I guess you just have to adapt. Let me try to steer it because I tried to fish out some kind of wisdom of you, like if somebody would be watching it and to come out with some actually... Marcin Dakowski: Yeah, whatever. Oleksij Rak: maybe some actionable advisors. I'll give you this example. I will again not name the company, but I know some people from the company. So the new CEO comes in and he announces that there will be like big changes in the company. The CEO was hired for a reason to make the company more AI. AI whatever, I will not repeat the... the he kind of ⁓ announces to the companies that, you know, your job is at risk and you're all to lose it. you know, so there's a lot of fear, more hearing and so on and so on and so on, which is probably a good thing. this few seconds ago, discussed about the good parts of AI. Whenever I to push AI within, you know, my company, team, I try to share Like how it works for me, some, you know, some kind of good parts and kind of try to advise to use it, you know, ⁓ share stories. That's kind of my way of being maybe less obstrusive or intrusive into people and kind of push the AI because I think it's kind of inevitable. What are like, are other recipes? do you advise? So I don't know. a leader or C level, whoever comes to you and says, Marcin, I need more company, my company to use more AI. want to kind of roll it out and need you to advise me on how to make it less bad for people because I've seen a lot of bad examples, right? I've seen like... Marcin Dakowski: Yeah, this is about AI, but I think it's about mostly everything. Oleksij Rak: And right, the good example? Marcin Dakowski: people do things because they have reasons to do things, right? And they also... stop doing things because they are just engaged in something because they have some reason or they don't engage because they have some reason. And quite often we just close in our caves or in our rooms and we just start thinking or we call this advisors and we ask them what should I do in this case so they don't behave this way blah blah blah. And most of the time I would just say why don't you ask them. And honestly, I think this is best solution. if you create this quite healthy and safe atmosphere in your organization, people will tell you what bothers them. And rather than just trying to find magically what can you say or how you should behave, that they be less frightened. You need to understand why they are frightened. And of course, someone will say, ⁓ it's like, It's not a kindergarten. I don't care if they are frightened. Actually, you do know, like this is exactly why they don't do the things you want them to do because they are frightened because of something. They are frightened that they will lose the job or that AI will take the job from the maybe about something else. Or maybe they don't understand what that next move. And I think it's a job of manager leader just to deep dive a bit. It's not about, you know, psychotherapy. You don't need to spend Oleksij Rak: Hmm. Marcin Dakowski: 10 hours every week trying to understand it. It's not about it, but just, you know, just talk to these people. Just ask, you know, how do you feel about it? I see that your adoption of AI smaller than of the other people. What can I do? want it to be bigger or you don't want it to be bigger? You know, just, you know, what can I do to help you with making it bigger? It's just like having this normal conversation. Sometimes we just try to, you know, overcomplicate things and think of some strategies and are like this circuit. are these five things that you should do for your people to adopt AI better. Now you should basically start talking to them and start to understand what's stopping them because only when you kind of understand the pain point, you can kind of address it. The pain point will be different for most of the people. So there are not necessarily some universal solutions. Of course, when you are saying that, I try to show them how I benefited from, yeah, fair enough. Probably, I think I would do as well. If I have my assistant, would just every week show him, look, I've done this with AI, this and this way, you can do it next time, this and this way. And he's excited and we are just, you know. Oleksij Rak: Hmm Mm-hmm. Marcin Dakowski: But honestly, I believe that we are still in this kind of pattern that we are managers, so we should know. People have some problems and we should, maybe we should, I don't know, solve them or help solving them, but we don't need to do it by ourselves. And hopefully there are more and more managers in the world right now who understand that the role is not to be the most, you know, perfect and knowledgeable, which actually getting to AI, it will be more and more difficult to play such a role, right? Because it was this boss and we went to the boss and he said something, something, and he definitely is right. And most of the time he may been right or may have not been right. Doesn't matter, but he was right. You know, there was no way to check it. And now he's just, you know, Oleksij Rak: Yeah. Marcin Dakowski: going back the corridor from his office, you just ask Claude, hey, he said this is this, and he will tell you the five arguments where they're rubbish. So leaders, also it will be another force that will push leaders towards being different leaders. I hope, there is, you know, there is a way I can imagine AI will push us towards being better leaders. And, you know, we said before, there is potential to make it happen. There is potential not to make it happen. like only advice I would have to everyone who's introducing AI to their companies is just to ⁓ give a thought. You know, just like, it's like the same with the goal. Sometimes it's quite difficult to establish a goal for a particular company because of different reasons and... People end up with these financial goals, which of course don't motivate anyone apart from the boss who gets money out of it, right? But it doesn't make too much sense. already discussion about the goal is valuable. So I don't know if we know exactly what to do to have... as little adverse effects of AI as possible. But I truly hope that even if you start the discussion and you talk to people and you want to, you you use a bit of this time, which is free right now towards this goal, it makes a lot of sense. So I would just, you know, it's, you know, it's, it's there, you know, it's in, in, some subconscious level, it's already in your organization. So you can either behave like it's not there, which is stupid. Or you can just push it towards more conscious level and have a discussion about it, which may be difficult or uncomfortable, but you know, good things are quite difficult and uncomfortable, you know, so it's like... Oleksij Rak: You're saying the job doesn't really change, right? there is no... There is no silver bullet, you... there is no silver bullet and the job doesn't change. know. I wanted to some kind of outcome out of this and I, yeah, I don't have more. I wanted to summarize what you said and I can't. Marcin Dakowski: don't know. ⁓ No, no, honestly, I'm not the one to say is there a bullet or not. probably don't know yet bullet myself. So ⁓ you listen to other podcasts and have better guests and know, someone with that idea. I don't that most of the it's not about finding bullets, like building a team which is engaged, motivated and successful. Oleksij Rak: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marcin Dakowski: It's rarely about finding a bullet. It's not something that you will do one day and it will work. And from now on it will work. It's more like a marathon that you do every week, sprint by sprint. You talk to the team, you check what works, what doesn't work, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So honestly, I'm not advocating anything for AI that I'm not advocating for any other aspect of managerial work. What I'm advocating is just to be close to your team and just check with them what's happening. This is a big change that is happening right now and it will affect them. matter how much you want not to affect them, but you know, it will. So you can either take care of it or just pretend it doesn't happen. And, ⁓ know, of there are plenty of managers all around the globe who just pretend quite a lot. that things are not happening and they are still managers and they are quite successful. And that's the way to do it as well. But you know, ⁓ you ask me, I'll say, you know, spent more time checking how feel about this AI thing, because it will be good if people start using AI more, but if they get more disengaged that they are right now, ⁓ we start to have an even bigger problem. Oleksij Rak: sense to me. Marcin Dakowski: last sentence, like the big change is happening and over over again, we believe that we don't need to address this change. We should address this change. It's like we should address this change. We shouldn't behave like it's not that. Oleksij Rak: Yeah, we should. Thanks so much, Marcin. It was, as always, good to you. Yeah, thanks. Cheers. ⁓ Marcin Dakowski: Thank you very much. Thank you for listening. Bye guys.