Latest / The BioHub - by Avetix / Episode 188 - Geert Kersten - CEO of CEL-SCI

Transcript

Episode 188 - Geert Kersten - CEO of CEL-SCI · The BioHub - by Avetix

• 0:06
  So welcome back to another episode of the Biohub and Avetix
• 0:09
  podcast. Today, I'm joined by Gia
• 0:12
  Kirsten, CEO of Sell Sai, A biotech developing innovative
• 0:16
  immunotherapies for cancer. Gia has one of the longest 10
• 0:20
  years of any biotech CEO. He joined Sell Sai back in 1987
• 0:24
  and has led the company since 1995.
• 0:27
  At one point, he was the youngest CEO in the industry.
• 0:30
  So let's get into it. How are you Kia?
• 0:33
  I'm great except I'm now an older CEO.
• 0:37
  Lots of battle scars. Yeah, I'm sure and we'll get
• 0:41
  into it. It's exciting.
• 0:42
  Like I'm I'm really looking forward to this podcast.
• 0:44
  Let's let's start with sell Sai. If we just talk about the
• 0:47
  journey you've been through and and how it's brought to you
• 0:50
  where to where you are today. Everybody who's had cancer among
• 0:54
  friends or family can relate to this one.
• 0:57
  People get treated for their cancer and then the doctor says,
• 1:01
  I think we got it all right. Maybe they add radiation and
• 1:06
  chemo and but that's I think we got it all.
• 1:10
  That always sounds great, but it doesn't turn out so well in many
• 1:13
  cases because then the cancer comes back and generally people
• 1:17
  will die from the cancer at that point in time.
• 1:20
  That's when we use these super expensive, super toxic
• 1:23
  treatments that we read about all the time.
• 1:26
  It's too late for those heroics. We have to make the first cancer
• 1:32
  treatment more successful. So the doctors know that.
• 1:35
  So that's why they're using surgery, radiation and chemo and
• 1:38
  combination. If you use chemo and radiation
• 1:40
  combination, some people even die from the treatments.
• 1:43
  They're horrible, but people want to live, so they accept it.
• 1:48
  Our idea was we, if we're going to get into this business, we
• 1:55
  want to change something and also make a lot of money because
• 2:00
  that by the way, do it by doing the right thing for the
• 2:02
  patients, you will make money. So you think of the.
• 2:05
  Patient SO. We said if surgery, radiation,
• 2:09
  chemo, everything we have cannot eliminate the cancer so that it
• 2:16
  doesn't come back and kill you, then something must be added.
• 2:20
  It's like your car being stuck in the snow and three people
• 2:23
  can't get it out. A fourth person comes along and
• 2:25
  helps you and now the car's free.
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  We said the immune system is the key now.
• 2:30
  Go back in time. When I started, people didn't
• 2:33
  believe in the immune system being a treatment for cancer.
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  Now it is the number one treatment.
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  They the idea that you would put something as a first treatment
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  was crazy in any case, because everybody was treating dying
• 2:48
  cancer patients. Because, you know, then look, if
• 2:51
  your choice is I'm going to die or accept something that may
• 2:54
  kill me but may also help me, it's a much easier proposition
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  to get a cancer drug to the market because compared to a
• 3:04
  certain death, all kinds of horrible things are acceptable.
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  Bottom line is the world has changed.
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  Biotechnology grew up, immunotherapy and cancer became
• 3:17
  the number one focus. And finally now people are
• 3:21
  moving and the direction of what we are doing, which means you
• 3:25
  have to make the first treatment more successful.
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  But they're finding out that it's very, very difficult to do.
• 3:35
  And the reasons it's difficult to do is number 1, you don't
• 3:37
  accept horribly toxic drugs. I mean, let's think about it.
• 3:41
  If your mother had cancer, would you?
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  I mean, if she was dying of cancer, you'd probably take her
• 3:45
  to some crazy clinic in Mexico to save her, right?
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  Would you ever do that on the first treatment?
• 3:51
  No. Would you ever give something
• 3:53
  horribly toxic that may kill her on the first treatment?
• 3:56
  No. So right then and there, that
• 4:00
  eliminates the great majority of cancer drugs.
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  The second thing is you're not allowed to delay your surgery,
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  radiation and chemo because they have some benefit.
• 4:13
  And if you delay, delay them, you may kill the patient.
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  So you only have three weeks. Tell me the cancer drug that
• 4:21
  works in three weeks because I don't know of any except for
• 4:25
  ours. Generally they requirements.
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  So what we have here is we have a medicine we're developing on
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  the basis of head and neck cancer, which is from here to
• 4:34
  here, sixth biggest cancer in the world.
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  Horrible. They cut your tongue out.
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  Things like they saw through your, your, your, your jaw.
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  I mean, it's like literally what they saw, right?
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  But it is not limited to head and neck cancer and in fact,
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  very soon we're going to be starting up some studies in
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  other cancers also. It is also not toxic.
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  However, then you can say, well, this is phenomenal.
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  You should have all the support in the world.
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  And sometimes we do because we've been a very hot stock in
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  the cold and hot and cold and all of that kind of stuff.
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  But honestly, people are so short term focused these days.
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  I'm focused on what the latest headline is.
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  That's an AI story. You know, people always remember
• 5:27
  the winners. They never forget about, never
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  think of the losers, right? Yeah, it's exciting, right?
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  It's like gambling people. It's.
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  Exactly like that. It's.
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  Exactly like that prediction markets, right.
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  One of the reasons I think why crypto is weak is because the
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  same people used to play crypto are now going after the
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  protection market. So they're the same people who
• 5:53
  used to play biotech. So this is it's a fascinate if
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  you go into the psychology of funding these things, it's not
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  as you think. And so, but the bottom line is
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  if you succeed and we have phenomenally good data like
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  extending survival five years massively, that's that's called
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  it. Most people call that a cure if
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  you're still alive for five years, right, phenomenal data
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  with no toxicity. So therefore, if we're
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  successful in the end of bringing this drug to market in
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  the US and Europe, we should be a 5 to $10 billion company.
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  So the only question is, OK, how do I get from here to there and
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  then once it's on the market, you know people are going to use
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  it and breast cancer and Malanoma etcetera, etcetera.
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  But I won't be involved anymore at that point because a big
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  pharma company will have bought us.
• 6:51
  So that was longer than I intended to give you, but it
• 6:53
  kind of was good on oversight. Yeah.
• 6:57
  Is that a question you get asked often?
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  Sorry, back back to that AI piece, Like how are you
• 7:01
  incorporating AI, for example? Is that something you get from
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  investors? AI is, oh it's a bit like a
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  computer, garbage and garbage upright.
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  So if you don't understand the system in the 1st place, then AI
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  can't figure it out. So do we understand the immune
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  system sufficiently that AI can figure out the answer?
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  I postulate we don't, but in our case it doesn't matter.
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  So I think AI and biotech can be important early on in selecting
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  something that fits together with something else.
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  We're way beyond that. We have finished the largest
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  clinical trial in the world and head and neck cancer from here
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  to there, 6% of all cancers. And we showed massive survival
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  benefit even up to five years. So we're talking here.
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  Control group, 45%, alive with our drug, 73%.
• 8:09
  Wow. Yes, unfortunately, regulators
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  have been becoming more conservative.
• 8:17
  Regulators say they're becoming easier, but you've got to watch
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  what they do and not what they say, OK?
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  It's always the truth, the truth in life.
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  So we have to do another study. Otherwise, I think this would be
• 8:29
  a super, super drug that people would be using all over the
• 8:31
  place. And in fact, I want to come back
• 8:34
  to that. I think there's a good chance
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  that this drug will come available in another country,
• 8:42
  maybe even quite soon. OK, wow.
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  And then you also said as part of your first answer that from
• 8:52
  now to approval to $10 billion plus company or acquisition by
• 8:58
  Big Pharma, you know, there's, there's a lot to do Ju just talk
• 9:01
  us through like what that future journey looks like.
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  FDA told us we have to do one final study, OK.
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  And the last study, basically what we saw make it simple.
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  The standard of care here gives you, we give our drug for three
• 9:15
  weeks right after diagnosis, right?
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  So you just diagnosed, you went to the dentist, they find a
• 9:20
  tumor in your mouth, they sent you to the surgeon while you're
• 9:23
  being set up for surgery. They allow a three-week
• 9:27
  treatment. They are not, don't allow more
• 9:29
  than three weeks because it constitutes a delay, which is
• 9:33
  not acceptable. In the UK you would have more
• 9:36
  time, but in the US they only give you 3 weeks.
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  So then you do your normal treatments, you do the surgery.
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  After the surgery, they determine whether you should get
• 9:45
  only radiotherapy or radio plus chemo.
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  And that's normal in cancer. That's based on pathology.
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  What we saw is the people who had only radiotherapy after the
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  surgery had massively improved survival, meeting all of these
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  statistical requirements. However, the other half of the
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  study where chemo was added, the chemo was countering the effect
• 10:06
  of the immune system program. OK.
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  So this is the complete unmet medical need.
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  No one has improved the survival of these patients in decades.
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  The drug is completely safe. We thought we could get a
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  limited approval for the people who are not getting the chemo.
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  We were told otherwise. We were told to have to do a
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  study. It's not a big study.
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  It's 212 patients and everything is ready for it to go.
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  We have the drug made. We have a validated
• 10:37
  manufacturing facility FDA. We worked through the protocol
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  with FDAFDA, asked us to submit it for their final approval,
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  which we did and they did. And so everything is ready to go
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  for this study. And then we have to do the
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  study. It's a registration study.
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  So the risk here is that the study won't work, but you don't
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  have to repeat 73% survival. You only have to be instead of
• 11:11
  4555%, we have a hazard ratio of .34, which literally is one of
• 11:20
  the best hazard ratios. It basically means that you have
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  a a 66% improvement in overall survival, right?
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  Not not improvement, it's, it's a smaller chance of dying I
• 11:34
  think is the terminology there. So it's a big deal in an area
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  where no one can help you live longer and it comes with no
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  toxicity. That's why I'm saying, I mean,
• 11:49
  look, even cancer drugs that don't have survival are end up
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  being worth 5, ten, $15 billion. If you have one that extends
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  survival, which is what patients look for.
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  They're always worth a lot. So we need to do that study.
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  That study can then give us that kind of valuation because then
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  we'd be approved. That's all worked out with FDA.
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  Wow. Exciting.
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  Incredible, right? Very, it's, it's very exciting
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  and it's all ready to go here basically.
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  Yeah. And then before we, we started
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  recording, we were actually talking about this.
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  It hasn't been an easy ride. And we're also talking
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  particularly over this last five years or so, where, where the
• 12:32
  market is. And it's no secret, right?
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  The market is just not being what, what it needed to be.
• 12:37
  Umm, just talk us through the, the, those struggles last five
• 12:42
  years and, and how it's got to hit.
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  Let's make it simple. You have this amazing race car,
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  OK, and you're no race and just just not enough gas around.
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  That's a problem, OK? I mean, unless it's electric,
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  OK, But I haven't seen any Formula One electric cars yet,
• 13:03
  so never know these days. But you run out of gas, it's a
• 13:09
  serious problem, OK, so you might say if it's a good
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  science, money will come to you. That's not true.
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  That is utopic thinking. It doesn't work.
• 13:22
  People, and more so these days, are chasing the latest fad.
• 13:27
  OK, Everybody wishes they had invested in NVIDIA 3 years ago.
• 13:35
  I'm sure you have thought about it, right?
• 13:37
  Of course, yeah. Exactly.
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  It's true. And they are looking for that
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  one. And how is our mind shaped by
• 13:44
  looking at the news mostly on the Internet these days.
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  And if you look, it is not about biotechnology or cancer drugs,
• 13:52
  it's about the latest AI thing. And the stock moved up 20%.
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  That stock moved up 50% and they blocked out the ones where they
• 14:02
  fell 50%, OK. That is what what has happened
• 14:08
  from that and higher interest rates didn't help is and then we
• 14:12
  have an FDA that is not helpful right now because they let me
• 14:18
  put it this way, I think in our division we've had in one Year 5
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  leaders in one Year 5 new leaders.
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  So they each have their own priorities, right?
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  Their own rules. So investors don't like a lack
• 14:34
  of clarity. What that means is for five
• 14:38
  years, longest time ever, biotechnology has not had the
• 14:44
  IPOs that requires a Ted has only and the only last fall did
• 14:50
  the big farmers start buying companies again.
• 14:53
  For years they didn't because they are under attack. 2 So it's
• 14:58
  been difficult, however, and every difficulty lies a silver
• 15:04
  lining. The greatest comebacks are in
• 15:09
  the areas most beaten up, right? So we're starting to see signs
• 15:15
  that things are turning right. A year ago, all that people
• 15:20
  wanted to invest in was NVIDIA. Now they're investing in all
• 15:23
  areas. Energy mining, Those were dead.
• 15:28
  They're running and we're starting to see those first
• 15:31
  life, science of life and biotechnology.
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  It just needs to trickle down from the very big guys to the
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  smaller ones. So that's a good thing.
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  But as ACEO, you cannot count on that.
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  You have to make your own luck. So I my first thing is we have
• 15:54
  to raise capital in our business.
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  We have to make sure that our capital structure stays clean.
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  We have no debt. We have no convertibles, no
• 16:05
  preferred, no warrants, no nothing, which in fact is why
• 16:10
  our stock last year and three months went up 600% because we
• 16:16
  had a good story there and there was nothing in the way of the
• 16:20
  stock. No, no overhang, whatever that
• 16:24
  is. You've got to stay clean, find
• 16:29
  an angle that investors like, and in the end, the closer you
• 16:35
  get to the finish line, the more investors will like you.
• 16:37
  It's always been that way. So this reminds me of it was
• 16:42
  about 7 years ago. Our stock was so beaten up.
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  I actually bought at that time. I always buy our stock.
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  I bought $200,000 worth of our stock in January.
• 16:53
  I never sell. OK.
• 16:55
  I would have made a fortune if I could if if I did, I just just
• 16:59
  as a leader, I think I'm held to a higher standard.
• 17:01
  Our stock was at $0.82. Within three years, it was at 3
• 17:06
  1/2 years, it was at 25. And then one day we traded over
• 17:10
  a billion dollars, went to 41 dollars.
• 17:13
  Wow. Exactly.
• 17:16
  Wow. Right.
• 17:18
  We are now seeing the opposite of that.
• 17:21
  You know, as you've seen it in life, certain things go very,
• 17:25
  very well, then afterwards they don't do so well.
• 17:27
  The UPS and the downs. We now have an exaggerated down
• 17:32
  movement, but I think it's starting to turn up.
• 17:35
  So therefore it's not, you know, it's not a huge endeavour We
• 17:41
  have to do. We have to do a study of 212
• 17:44
  patients. We have our manufacturing
• 17:45
  facility in place. It has been validated.
• 17:48
  We have partners around the world.
• 17:51
  The study is ready to go. There are certain things
• 17:55
  happening in the market that I think will will allow for this
• 17:58
  to happen rapidly. But this is our special angle.
• 18:06
  Saudi Arabia, you might say, Saudi Arabia biotech, you just
• 18:10
  say, OK, are you dreaming? Hey, I'm dreaming every day
• 18:16
  because you have to think outside the box, OK?
• 18:20
  I'm interested. I mean, I've heard a few people
• 18:22
  say this, but no one's actioning, at least from what I
• 18:26
  can see. I think we'll be the first.
• 18:30
  This is what happened. So we have Saudi Arabia has your
• 18:35
  Vision 2030 plan. Part of that plan obviously is
• 18:39
  to build an AI hub and this and that.
• 18:42
  And here there they want to diversify the economy and they
• 18:45
  want to become a biotech hub. In the past, Saudi Arabia just
• 18:51
  simply approved the drugs that were approved in the UK, in
• 18:54
  Europe or in the US. It was simple.
• 18:59
  Now they want companies coming to Saudi Arabia and help build
• 19:04
  the biotech scene in Saudi Arabia.
• 19:06
  And in return for that, they are willing to take more risk.
• 19:12
  So if you have a really good drug and it has to be super
• 19:16
  safe, which ours is, and we have great results overall survival
• 19:20
  doesn't get better on that in cancer, right?
• 19:22
  For serious disease, they are willing to give you it's they
• 19:28
  call it breakthrough, but it's kind of a limited approval to
• 19:31
  sell the drug while you collect more data.
• 19:35
  Interesting. Yeah.
• 19:37
  Exactly. So.
• 19:39
  And we're talking including expats, about 51 million people.
• 19:44
  And I've been told that if you're clear there to sell drug,
• 19:49
  then many other countries will follow.
• 19:51
  Like in the GCC, you also have medical tourism, people go
• 19:56
  there. I've learned that a lot of the
• 19:58
  focus of Saudi Arabia appears to be to the east, not so much to
• 20:03
  our part of the world. I, you know, I thought it would
• 20:06
  be more to our side, but India, China and that kind of stuff.
• 20:10
  So we met with the FDA, they invited us to apply.
• 20:18
  Upon reviewing the data, we did apply.
• 20:22
  And we think from everything that we've seen with the
• 20:26
  meetings we've had that we've answered all of their scientific
• 20:28
  questions. And then we also with them, we
• 20:33
  were asked about economic questions, what will you do for
• 20:36
  Saudi Arabia? Because I mean, that's what the
• 20:38
  whole thing is, is about, right? They, they want you to work with
• 20:42
  Saudis locally. They want you to, to, to teach
• 20:45
  them, they want you to give them the possibility of publishing.
• 20:49
  And just that's how you build the ecosystem.
• 20:52
  You involve them, you teach them, you're maybe you build a
• 20:56
  facility there, etcetera. So we proposed all of that and
• 21:00
  that from everything I can tell was accepted to and then they
• 21:03
  went quiet. It's like really what's going
• 21:06
  on? They went quiet.
• 21:08
  Nothing. We haven't heard anything yet.
• 21:09
  Just hesitation or you don't know.
• 21:12
  I will not speak as to why or how because I don't know and but
• 21:19
  let me put it this way. I think in Saudi Arabia you need
• 21:24
  local help because it is we're Western and we are Western
• 21:29
  thinkers. Their country is things work
• 21:34
  differently there. And so I've talked to a lot of
• 21:37
  people and they've all said you won't succeed unless you have a
• 21:41
  really strong local partner. Interesting.
• 21:45
  Yeah. So we think we're at the finish
• 21:48
  line. And now what I'm hopefully going
• 21:52
  to be able to show our investors soon is a major local partner
• 21:58
  joining us, which I think should tell people that, you know,
• 22:03
  obviously they've seen what what we have, etcetera.
• 22:06
  Why would they join us if they didn't think the drug could be,
• 22:12
  let's call it approved for sale? OK.
• 22:14
  It's, it's not a full approval, but it's, it's the you wouldn't
• 22:17
  be allowed to sell the drug. Yeah.
• 22:20
  And when you say partner, you're talking a company already on the
• 22:24
  ground or an individual already on the ground or.
• 22:26
  It's, it's yes, uh huh. And so, so many people say, oh,
• 22:30
  you have to hire one of the Princess.
• 22:33
  I, I don't think that's how it works.
• 22:35
  I don't know, right. Maybe if you hire the right
• 22:37
  Prince. I don't know.
• 22:39
  There is a wide disparity of willingness to take risk, a wide
• 22:47
  disparity in responsiveness. We have met some of the, I mean,
• 22:53
  some wonderful, wonderful, highly competent people.
• 22:57
  And I think you've got to make sure you go with the right
• 23:00
  people who are. And look, it's not just Saudi
• 23:07
  Arabia, right? You need local.
• 23:10
  They don't trust us as foreigners.
• 23:13
  Yeah, well, I mean, that's perfectly good reason.
• 23:15
  Westerners have been screwing them for decades, right?
• 23:20
  They get their money from them and suddenly they disappear.
• 23:25
  So I can tell you I'm not that way, right?
• 23:28
  I work with people over a long, long, long, long time.
• 23:31
  But then why would they trust me?
• 23:35
  So the goal for us is to get that permission to sell the
• 23:40
  drug, to work with Saudi Arabia, help Saudi Arabia and return.
• 23:45
  Because if people do nice things for us, obviously I'm going to
• 23:47
  go out of my way to do nice things for them.
• 23:49
  That's simply how I that's how I built.
• 23:51
  OK, then we do the study for FDA.
• 23:56
  That study is overall survival, two groups.
• 24:01
  I cannot imagine that any regulator would have a problem
• 24:04
  with it because literally it's the most conservative way of
• 24:07
  looking at it. Along the way, we have clearly
• 24:12
  shown that if so, we're only allowed to treat for three
• 24:14
  weeks, right? So you come into the door, you
• 24:16
  know, find out you have a tumor before, as you're being
• 24:20
  scheduled for surgery, you're waiting around.
• 24:22
  But if you get our drug, you get our drug, and in some cases the
• 24:26
  tumors completely disappear. Wow.
• 24:29
  And we're copying nasty tumors like on your tongue.
• 24:32
  Gone in other cases they only shrink, but they have to more
• 24:36
  than shrink the more than 30% in three weeks, which is incredibly
• 24:39
  fast. OK to be counted.
• 24:42
  What we've shown is that if your tumor is gone or shrinks more
• 24:44
  than 30% by it's literally one in 10 billion chance, you can't
• 24:50
  have better statistics. It predicts your survival.
• 24:58
  So if you have these too much shrinkages, we know you are
• 25:01
  going to live much, much longer, which is the goal of a cancer
• 25:06
  drug, by the way, with no toxicities.
• 25:09
  So step one, seek to get that permission to sell in Saudi
• 25:15
  Arabia. And by the way, we've been told
• 25:18
  that there are a lot of investors who are interested in
• 25:23
  US once that has been achieved. That makes sense.
• 25:27
  Exactly. It makes sense.
• 25:28
  Yeah, also Saudi investors, right?
• 25:31
  It, it changes the character of the company, right.
• 25:34
  Second thing is do that study and roll it and then you have a
• 25:38
  very good shot of getting an early approval in the US and or
• 25:42
  Europe. OK.
• 25:45
  Yep, third one, that's the what I call the $10 billion goal.
• 25:50
  You wait for the end of the study, you see the survival.
• 25:54
  Given the fact that we're currently $40 million, you know,
• 25:58
  there is a lot of range in there.
• 26:01
  And the the great thing about it is, first of all, we've been
• 26:04
  around forever. So hopefully we'll we will not
• 26:08
  fade away. OK #2 We have phenomenal data on
• 26:12
  a massive number of patients. So you shouldn't have any safety
• 26:17
  risks. You already know that even if
• 26:19
  there's a deviation from the past data, if I can jump over a
• 26:23
  big table and now I need to jump over a baby chair, chances are
• 26:29
  that I will be successful and jumping over the much, much
• 26:32
  smaller chair, right? So that's essentially what we're
• 26:37
  asked to do. And then, you know, it's always
• 26:40
  the same. The moment you're successful,
• 26:44
  everybody loves you, not just the stock investors.
• 26:48
  But then farmer comes knocking on the door.
• 26:50
  Right now they're sniffing around.
• 26:53
  Hello, we would like to buy you. It's.
• 26:58
  You would think that these people would show up when your
• 27:01
  stock is down, but it's exactly like investors.
• 27:04
  Most investors don't buy stock when it's down.
• 27:08
  They wait for it to go up 100% or 500%, and then they all pile
• 27:12
  on. Yeah, it is human psychology.
• 27:15
  It's fascinating, but you have you have to be.
• 27:19
  It's annoying at times, but you can also use it to your benefit.
• 27:24
  And that's so again, like I told you, our stock went from $0.82
• 27:28
  to $41.00 and 3 1/2 years. It's incredible, yeah.
• 27:33
  If you have that happen once in your lifetime, you know, and
• 27:37
  then sell the right time, It's it's phenomenal.
• 27:40
  Yeah. This is what I believe is going
• 27:42
  to happen. I think we'll be successful with
• 27:45
  this. I think we will get help from a
• 27:48
  general renaissance and the biotechnology market.
• 27:53
  We're now seeing a wider distribution of capital.
• 27:57
  I think more will come to biotech and when that happens,
• 28:08
  I, I think I'm pretty good in predicting certain things and
• 28:11
  sock movements. That's in fact, I'm not taking a
• 28:14
  salary. So that's, that's how I'm able
• 28:16
  to, to live because but I've never been able to tell you when
• 28:22
  biotech will suddenly run. You will wake up 1 morning and
• 28:26
  you will say what's going on and that week is going to be
• 28:30
  unbelievable and it's not going to be in sell side only.
• 28:36
  It's going to be in others also. They will.
• 28:39
  It's like someone turned on the light switch and you know it's
• 28:43
  going to happen because it always has happened before.
• 28:47
  We need the industry. People are greedy and it's way
• 28:54
  overdue because usually these downturns happen in 1 1/2 to two
• 28:58
  years. Now it's been five years.
• 29:00
  Yeah, I agree. That's similar to to what I've
• 29:03
  said. And where, which way are we
• 29:05
  going to go? But, umm, look, it's been a
• 29:08
  pleasure having you on, umm, I think what you guys are doing
• 29:11
  is, is amazing. I love the way you think, the
• 29:14
  way you talk about things. It's awesome.
• 29:16
  We just have one last question, which to get a question I ask
• 29:20
  every guest who comes on the podcast, and I apologize if I
• 29:23
  haven't given you a heads up on this.
• 29:26
  Yeah. So this will be authentic in the
• 29:29
  way you answer, but it's if you could have dinner with any
• 29:32
  scientist or innovator, past or present, who would it be and
• 29:37
  why? Madame Julie, I mean, that
• 29:40
  woman, first of all, as a woman, she pushed forward, right.
• 29:45
  And you know how chauvinistic men can be today.
• 29:48
  And you can assume that they were much more chauvinist in
• 29:51
  those days. She just made it happen.
• 29:54
  Yeah. I have much high respect for for
• 29:56
  smart people, but smart people who push things through things
• 30:00
  and women for them for for them are tighter.
• 30:02
  And then by the way, she died of radiation poisoning.
• 30:05
  She really put herself at risk. Yeah.
• 30:08
  So she she lived the idea all the way.
• 30:13
  I love that answer. Thank you so much for coming on
• 30:16
  Gear, it's been a pleasure. Max, thank you so much also and
• 30:19
  all the best to you and your your guys there you.
• 30:22
  Too And look everyone please like and subscribe to the bio
• 30:25
  hub and and thank you so much for getting gear.