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KOHBERGER TRIAL DATE SET AUGUST 2025 · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: On the evening of November twelfth and into the early
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: morning hours of November thirteenth. Kaylee and Madison arrived home
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: at approximately one forty five am after visiting a local
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: bar and a street food vendor. Ethan and Xana were
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: also at in the community at Sigma Chai, and they
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  Speaker 2: arrived home at approximately one forty five am. Two surviving
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  Speaker 2: roommates who were also at in the community arrived home
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  Speaker 2: at approximately one am. Later on the morning of November thirteenth,
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: at eleven fifty eight am, a nine on one.
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  Speaker 3: Call was placed.
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  Speaker 2: The call reported an unconscious person. The call originated from
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: inside the residence and a surviving roommate's cell phone was used.
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: During that call, the dispatcher spoke to multiple people who
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: were on scene. Moscow Police officers responded and found two victims,
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  Speaker 2: two on the second floor and two on the third
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  Speaker 2: floor of eleven twenty two King Road. The results of
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  Speaker 2: autopsies indicated that the four were stabbed multiple times and
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: were likely asleep during the attack. Some had defensive wounds
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  Speaker 2: and there was no sign of sexual assault.
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  Speaker 4: You are hearing Police Captain Roger Lanier there in Moscow,
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  Speaker 4: detailing what happened the morning the murders were reported to
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  Speaker 4: nine to one one in the last hours Bob Shell
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: in the courtroom, Ryan Coberger announced this his formal alibi,
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: that he was quote out watching the moon and the
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  Speaker 4: stars around three to four a m.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: The night of the murders. Hold that thought. Also in
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: the middle of all of this, let me throw this
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: in the pot to stew. We are now learning.
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  Speaker 4: Contrary to many earlier reports that there was no stalking,
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  Speaker 4: Brian Coburger reportedly stalked no one.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: This is a torpedo to the state's case.
• 2:20
  Speaker 5: Listen, Brian Coberger tried to message one of the female
• 2:24
  Speaker 5: victims of the Idaho murders. That's reportedly what an unidentified
• 2:28
  Speaker 5: police source told People Magazine. The source said, weeks before
• 2:33
  Speaker 5: the murder's direct messages were repeatedly sent to one of
• 2:36
  Speaker 5: the women over Instagram. The source said there was no reply.
• 2:41
  Speaker 5: Reports early on from an anonymous source revealed that there
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: were pictures of at least one of the victims in
• 2:47
  Speaker 5: Brian Cooberger's photo role. Steve and Christy Gonsovs also shared
• 2:51
  Speaker 5: screenshots with CBS News purportedly showing an Instagram account belonging
• 2:56
  Speaker 5: to Brian Coburger, and it had interacted with and followed
• 3:00
  Speaker 5: Matty Mogen and Kaylee. Gonzalve was on the social media platform.
• 3:05
  Speaker 5: Christy Gonsalves said that Coburger had liked pictures on Matti
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: Mogan's account. The account that Gonsalves referred to was not
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  Speaker 5: authenticated as belonging to Coberger.
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  Speaker 1: Then who wasn't.
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  Speaker 4: Well, that's what we've been told all along, right, all wrong.
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  Speaker 1: There was a serious blow up in court.
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  Speaker 6: Listen, you acknowledged false the mister Choberger alleged we stalked
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  Speaker 6: one of the victims. That's false.
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  Speaker 3: You know that to be fault? Which one did? Miss
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  Speaker 3: Coberger allegend we stalked one of the victims. I was
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  Speaker 3: trying not to say.
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  Speaker 7: That because you knew you knew.
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  Speaker 3: That was false. I did it.
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  Speaker 8: Yes, And so you have now for anybody who had
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  Speaker 8: never heard that before, that question is now planted in
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  Speaker 8: to them unqualified representation that mister Coberger stalked one of
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  Speaker 8: the witnesses.
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  Speaker 3: And that's false, that's false.
• 3:59
  Speaker 8: Yes, yes, okay, thank you, thank you.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, what in the world you are hearing? The prosecutor
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: that is Bill Thompson the lot of County prosecutor dreaming
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  Speaker 4: technical legal term doctor Edelman for the defense, and the
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  Speaker 4: prosecutor is grilling him on claims that he made two
• 4:24
  Speaker 4: potential jurors about stalking in this case. Joining me an
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  Speaker 4: all star panel to make sense of everything that's going
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  Speaker 4: on in that courtroom, and.
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  Speaker 1: There is a lot.
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  Speaker 4: But first to Kaitlin Hornick, joining us editor at the
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: US Sun, Caitlin, thank you for being with us. I'm
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  Speaker 4: going to get to the moon of the stars, all right.
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  Speaker 4: I've already researched the whole thing on the Farmer's Almanac, Caitlin,
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  Speaker 4: What is this about no stalking?
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  Speaker 1: Are we losing motive for murder?
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  Speaker 9: You know, Nancy, I think there are a lot of
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  Speaker 9: things still play that this jury ultimately will have to uncover.
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  Speaker 9: The thing that's really sticking out to me is the
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  Speaker 9: you know, the back and forth with the stocking. I
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  Speaker 9: don't know how you can go from saying that there
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  Speaker 9: were these messages exchanged on Instagram and that the photos
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  Speaker 9: on the camera roll to saying, oh no, wait, that's
• 5:18
  Speaker 9: that's not true. That's actually not true. You know, I
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  Speaker 9: think there are a lot of things that the prosecutors
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  Speaker 9: need to be honest about and that they need to
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  Speaker 9: lay out in plane terms facts about what actually went on. Personally,
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  Speaker 9: I think the fact that his that Coburger's prosecutors doubled
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  Speaker 9: down on his alibi is equal parts shocking and you know,
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  Speaker 9: just kind of crazy when you think about it.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm thinking about that well, watching the Moon and
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  Speaker 4: Stars aspect of this. Let me go to high profile
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  Speaker 4: lawyer joining us from this jurisdiction, Tara Malik, partner at
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: Smith and Malik in former state and federal prosecutor. Tara,
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  Speaker 4: thank you for being with us. Do you remember, of
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  Speaker 4: course you do the famous If it doesn't fit, you
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  Speaker 4: must acquit. Well, I feel like I'm getting bit in
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  Speaker 4: the neck with this thing. But all along we have
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  Speaker 4: heard police stating we don't have evidence of stalking.
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  Speaker 1: We've heard that from the get go.
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  Speaker 4: But yet we've seen screens and heard evidence that there
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  Speaker 4: was stalking by Coburger on at least one of the victims,
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  Speaker 4: if not more. So are we going to have a
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  Speaker 4: Johnny cochrane asque defense, No stalking, no murder, no motive.
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  Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, its certainly doesn't help the States case.
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  Speaker 10: Motive is not something that they have to prove. It's
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  Speaker 10: not like you know, an element of the charges. But
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  Speaker 10: what it does is explain the why behind the crimes,
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  Speaker 10: and jurors always want to know why why did this happen?
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  Speaker 1: Guys.
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  Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, it goes way back. Take
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  Speaker 4: a listen to Police Captain Roger Lanier.
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  Speaker 2: We have heard mentioned that Kaylee stated she may have
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  Speaker 2: had a stalker. Detectives have been looking into that and
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  Speaker 2: to this point have been unable to corroborate the statement.
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  Speaker 2: Although we continue to seek information and tips regarding that report,
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  Speaker 2: no suspects have been named or arrested, and we continue
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  Speaker 2: looking for what we will leave to be a fixed
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  Speaker 2: blade knife used in the murders.
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  Speaker 4: That knife never found and neither has there been found
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  Speaker 4: evidence of stalking. Again, I can hear it ringing in
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  Speaker 4: my ears right now.
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  Speaker 1: No motive, no murder.
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  Speaker 4: Joining me as I said an All Star panel to
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: Chris mcdunna, joining US director Cold Case Foundation, former homicide
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  Speaker 4: detective on the interview.
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  Speaker 1: Room on YouTube.
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  Speaker 4: Chris mcdonna, of course, the state, as you know from
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  Speaker 4: handling so many homicides, never has to prove motive. But
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  Speaker 4: in many people's minds, there should be a motive presented
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  Speaker 4: to a jury, because how could a jury believe that
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  Speaker 4: someone that doesn't know these four victims would just randomly
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  Speaker 4: choose them and murder them.
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: To quote, see what it feels like.
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  Speaker 4: That's going to be a tough sell, especially now that
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  Speaker 4: we find out the state has also learned the defenses,
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  Speaker 4: bringing on cell phone and radio frequency data to refute
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  Speaker 4: claims Coburger was in the area of the murders at
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  Speaker 4: the time of the murders. The state is getting torpedoed
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  Speaker 4: left and right. Now we've lost motive.
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  Speaker 11: The stalking, Yeah, Natcy, I mean, one of the most
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  Speaker 11: interesting things, and it may just be semantics, is when
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  Speaker 11: Thompson was arguing with the expert witness of the defense
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  Speaker 11: put on, he mentioned that there's no evidence of witnesses.
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  Speaker 3: Being stalked. I thought that was a very interesting choice
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  Speaker 3: of words versus victims. This may be a cover play
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  Speaker 3: as well by the state, because you know, you've got
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  Speaker 3: to now think about we've got some amateur, you know,
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  Speaker 3: astronomer I e. Koberger, you know, exercising in the middle
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  Speaker 3: of the night. Yet his cell phone shows up twelve
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  Speaker 3: separate times around the crime scene.
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  Speaker 4: This as we were learning and correct me if I'm wrong.
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  Speaker 4: Caitlin Hornick joining us from the US SUN. But the polster,
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  Speaker 4: the surveyor that was hired by the defense to call
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  Speaker 4: at least four hundred prospective gurrrs, asked the gurrrs about stalking,
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  Speaker 4: and we heard Prosecutor Bill.
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  Speaker 1: Thompson say, you knew that wasn't true, and you.
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  Speaker 4: Asked people, you put it out there in the ether
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  Speaker 4: that there was stalking. And the guy responds, I don't
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  Speaker 4: care if it's true or false.
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  Speaker 1: He actually said that in a court of law. Did
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  Speaker 1: that happen?
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  Speaker 9: Caitlin, You know, I think one of the biggest things
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  Speaker 9: at play here that the whole the prosecution that Coburger,
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  Speaker 9: that everyone involved is struggling with is misinformation. You know,
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  Speaker 9: we've seen that from the beginning with the stalker not
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  Speaker 9: stalker bit. You know, there's so many inconsistencies that I
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  Speaker 9: think are still being investigated.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, question, I'm asking you about the surveyor, the surveyor
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  Speaker 4: that sent out called to at least four.
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  Speaker 1: Hundred potential Coburger yourrs.
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  Speaker 4: And in that phone survey, the surveyor asked about Coburger
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  Speaker 4: stalking the victims and you know what played again? Was
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  Speaker 4: it's cut twenty Bill Thompson, the Lotta County prosecutor grilling
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  Speaker 4: doctor Edelman who took part in this survey.
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  Speaker 1: Listen, you're done.
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  Speaker 3: With fault that mister Coberger alleged we stalked one of
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  Speaker 3: the victims.
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  Speaker 8: That's false, you know that to popl which one did
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  Speaker 8: miss Coberger allegend we stalked one.
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  Speaker 3: Of the victims. I was trying not to say that.
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  Speaker 8: Because you knew you knew that was false. I did, yes,
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  Speaker 8: And so you have now for anybody who had never
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  Speaker 8: heard that before, that question is now planted in to
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  Speaker 8: them unqualified representation that mister Coberger stalked one of the witnesses.
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  Speaker 3: And that's false, that's false.
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  Speaker 8: Yes, yes, okay, thank you, thank you.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, all right, So Caitlyn Hornick, explain who is doctor Edelman?
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  Speaker 10: You know he's a polster.
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  Speaker 9: We why he was making these phone calls and kind
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  Speaker 9: of you know, planting this information remains to be seen.
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  Speaker 9: You know why he went so far and you know
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  Speaker 9: to say that there was stalking and you know, but
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  Speaker 9: these false claims, it doesn't make sense.
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  Speaker 1: Details matter.
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  Speaker 4: Now we are about the weather conditions, the night for
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  Speaker 4: University Idaho students murdered. As prime suspect Brian Coberger claims
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  Speaker 4: he was out alone watching the moon at stars at
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  Speaker 4: four am. To Joe Scott Morgan, how difficult is it
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  Speaker 4: to pull that up? Because I found it pretty quickly
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  Speaker 4: the night sky at eleven fifty pm November twelve, throughout
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  Speaker 4: the morning was basically very low visibility. And Joe Scott,
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  Speaker 4: before you answer that, I'm looking throughout the night three
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  Speaker 4: seventeen am overcast, three fifty three am. That's the time
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  Speaker 4: of the murders, ice and fog. Four fifty three overcast,
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  Speaker 4: five fifty three overcast, six fifty three overcast.
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  Speaker 1: So what's he looking at?
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  Speaker 7: Nothing? I mean, how can he see? You know, unless
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  Speaker 7: he has some kind of special ability, how are you
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  Speaker 7: going to be able to go out and appreciate this?
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  Speaker 7: And you're talking about a layer fog nancy as well,
• 13:01
  Speaker 7: because that's going to settle between your view of the
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  Speaker 7: sky and yourself your position relative to the sky, all right,
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  Speaker 7: So it's not just simply that it's overcast. It's like
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  Speaker 7: you begin to think about fog that's perhaps over there.
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  Speaker 7: It's kind of you know, how they use the term Nancy,
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  Speaker 7: a blanket of fog. You begin to think about that,
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  Speaker 7: So that's even going to further obscure your view.
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  Speaker 4: So I'm looking at this the cloud cover on Saturday,
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  Speaker 4: November twelve, twenty twenty two, in Moscow, Idaho, cloud coverage,
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  Speaker 4: the height of dominant cloud layer very very thick and
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: overcast that night. There is not only overcast, but ice
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  Speaker 4: and fog. And you know what I think would be
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  Speaker 4: a fantastic courtroom demonstration, And of course, Tara Malek, Tara Malic,
• 13:51
  Speaker 4: high profile lawyer joining US side of this jurisdiction. Tara,
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  Speaker 4: wouldn't it be a great demonstration to turn off all
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: the lights in the courtroom and try to recreate the conditions,
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: maybe with possibly an overhead projector of some sort of
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  Speaker 4: the stars.
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  Speaker 1: In the moon.
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  Speaker 4: How little you could see that night. That would be
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  Speaker 4: tough to do. Maybe there's some sort of a satellite
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: picture from that night. I bet there is that could
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: be achieved by the stake to show the jury, maybe
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: from the US Weather Service, how overcast it really was
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: that night.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: And for him to be out at four a m.
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: Stargazing what a SACA Let me just say bs technical
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: legal term.
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  Speaker 1: I mean Is this really happening.
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  Speaker 10: Tara, Yeah, I mean again, this is a weak alibi
• 14:52
  Speaker 10: that's being put forward, and I agree if there's a
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  Speaker 10: way to demonstrate or show a picture about what the
• 14:57
  Speaker 10: sky looked like that night, I would I certainly think
• 15:00
  Speaker 10: that would help the prosecution's case in poking holes in
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  Speaker 10: this alibi defense.
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  Speaker 4: I'm wondering if they're going to use cell phone data
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: to suggest Coburger was elsewhere at the time of the
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: murders looking at the stars, because that elsewhere is out
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  Speaker 4: in the middle of nowhere.
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  Speaker 10: Yeah, it seems like that they're going to rely on
• 15:21
  Speaker 10: cell phone data to say he was out at a
• 15:24
  Speaker 10: park's stargazing. But you know, again, where is this park
• 15:29
  Speaker 10: and is the park within the route of you know,
• 15:32
  Speaker 10: the secuitas kind of route that we've already know and
• 15:35
  Speaker 10: talked about that he took to get over to the victims' homes.
• 15:41
  Speaker 10: So there's a lot to be seen here. And it
• 15:44
  Speaker 10: seems like the defense is also saying we still don't
• 15:47
  Speaker 10: have the discovery that we need to get all this
• 15:51
  Speaker 10: information out and to support our alibi.
• 15:54
  Speaker 6: I ve justifying you don't care if the information that
• 15:57
  Speaker 6: you're put in your specific questions to other people getting surveyors.
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: Correct.
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  Speaker 3: You said that in you right.
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  Speaker 8: I don't know what you mean by correct, true or false.
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: I care about whether or not I's proliferated by the media.
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  Speaker 6: You don't care if it's true.
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: No, I don't. I know everybody's aid prejudiction.
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  Speaker 6: So it's okay to taint people who have never heard
• 16:17
  Speaker 6: that information for for the end result of identifying others
• 16:24
  Speaker 6: who have who might have bias.
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  Speaker 12: I'm going to object to the questions he's he's a badgery.
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: So why is it that the only corroboration Mark Taye
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: that Bilburger is.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Bringing on is a set of cell phone paings.
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  Speaker 13: But there's nothing wrong with that. The prosecution has indicated
• 16:43
  Speaker 13: they're going to rely on cell phone pings. And the
• 16:46
  Speaker 13: rule the law about Alibi and Idah who is anytime
• 16:50
  Speaker 13: after arraignment you're allowed to tell the defendants tell the
• 16:53
  Speaker 13: prosecutors rather that you're going to rely on Alibi and
• 16:56
  Speaker 13: you have to disclose your witnesses. However, here the witnesses
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  Speaker 13: are cell phone pings, just like the prosecutions relying on
• 17:04
  Speaker 13: cell phone pings. So is the defendant rely allowed to
• 17:07
  Speaker 13: rely as well? Now of course that's going to be
• 17:10
  Speaker 13: put in front of a jury, just like issues about
• 17:12
  Speaker 13: whether he wore gloves and how strange that is. All
• 17:15
  Speaker 13: of that will be admitted by witnesses, all of whom
• 17:18
  Speaker 13: are subject to a sifting cross examination. And so now
• 17:22
  Speaker 13: the prosecution knows there's going to be an alibi defense,
• 17:26
  Speaker 13: and when there is, it has to be supported by
• 17:28
  Speaker 13: admissible evidence. And so with each witness comes the chance
• 17:31
  Speaker 13: you're reading the.
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: Criminal Code on evidence to me, I got it.
• 17:37
  Speaker 13: So that's what the defense has to do. That's what
• 17:40
  Speaker 13: they have to do.
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: Let's give Mark, you have to hold the prosecutions.
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  Speaker 13: Well, what is it you're going to wear gloves?
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: Cell phone pings?
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: I've got a pair here for you, but maybe you
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: could borrow Koburger's.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Oh wait, no, they're an evidence joining me.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: Chris McDonough, you were talking about the pings and you
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: didn't get to say it on air. But Tate is
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: all about, Oh, the pings are going to help exonerate him.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: Wait a minute, Okay, he's at home to forty two,
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: he's at hum back at home at five point twenty seven.
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: He's at home at not ninety thirty two am. But
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: wait a minute four point fifty phone ping four forty eight,
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: phone turned back on Wait two forty seven am, right
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: before the murders, in the middle of the night, while
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: he's out stargazing, he decides to turn his phone off
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: from two forty seven to four forty eight. Wow, Chris mcdonne,
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: isn't that exactly when the time the murders occurred?
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, Nancy. And what's interesting at that and you
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: pointed it out. You know, the one thing we learned
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: about this alibi as well is all four of the
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: victims are sound asleep. And you know, the twelve other
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: times that he was seen around that neighborhood, they were
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: also asleep. But in this particular case, you have the
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: phone things that get up to the point where they
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: turn off and then all of a sudden, the video
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: picks it back up in the neighborhood, i e. The car.
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: Whenever you hear a defense attorney shay, you know, the
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: public has a right to know, and there's a gag order,
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: that's usually a clue that there's something coming.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: Chief suspect Brian Coburger says he's out alone driving in
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: the late night and early morning hours November twelve and thirteen,
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: but the trial judge doubles down on Coburger's defense team,
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: insisting you've got to hand over a witness other than the.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: Moon and the stars.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: The defense likely to rely on cell phone data to
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: try and place Brian Coburger somewhere anywhere there than the
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: King Roade address. The judge says he was out driving
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: during the late night and early morning hours November twelve
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: to thirteen, twenty twenty two.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: That's his alibi.
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: The judge doubled down on Coburger in court in the
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: last hour, saying, you've got to give us a witness
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: or the evidence you're bringing on to corroborate this.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: What do I think It is no witness at all.
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: It's going to be cell phone data, The defense claims
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: places Coburger somewhere entirely different than the King Wrote address.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Let's see the.
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: Timeline, isn't it true, Caitlin Hornick that Coburger we can
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: prove turned his phone off and on the night of
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: the murders.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Just to yes, no, yes, absolutely, two forty two. His
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: phone is on at his apartment in Pullman. I went there.
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: It's about an eight minute drive from the murder scene
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: eight to twelve minutes to forty seven, he turns his
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: phone off. Who on this panel turns your phone off
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: when you're going driving in the middle of the night.
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: I would keep mine on just in case I had
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: a nine to one one. Anyway, he turns his off.
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: We know that, and that is irrefutable. I'm gonna circle
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: back in a moment to Bill Slater, who says, you
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: gotta take your battery out of your phone to be
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: untraceable just turning it off. Hey, we know you're doing that.
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: Two forty seven. This guy is up and about turning
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: his phone off. Three point twenty nine. Not cell phone,
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: but video surveillance from a nearby home a residence shows
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: a white Saedan passing the King Road address that looks
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: oops just like his white Elantra.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: For zero four.
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: The sedan returns and stops in front of the King
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: Road address four twenty Sixteen minutes later, the white Sadan
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: scratches off off, taking off like a bat out of
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: Hell at a high speed, leaving the King Road address.
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: And then twenty eight minutes later and for me, it
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: was about an hour drive four forty eight a m
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: twenty eight minutes later, that phone is turned back on
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: and it's pinging south of Moscow, Idaho State Highway ninety five.
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: I took that drive to Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: a hit series, Body Bags, and most important for me
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: right now, for expert and death investigator Just Scott. He's
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: between a rock and a hard spot. I want you
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: to analyze everything Slater.
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: Has told us, but also we are.
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: Poking a little bit of fun at the moon and
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: the stargazing alibi.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: But think about it, what else is Ann Taylor, the
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: defense lawyer, going to say he was the party with
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: all of his friends. That ain't happening.
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: They got to come up with something to make sense
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: to a jury why he may have been out driving around.
• 23:17
  Speaker 4: The only thing they can do is refute the cell
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: phone data because that videos.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's got its car.
• 23:24
  Speaker 7: Tag, No it doesn't. But that's all they can do, Nancy,
• 23:28
  Speaker 7: isn't it You know, when you begin to think about it,
• 23:31
  Speaker 7: they can. They're muddy in the waters with all of
• 23:34
  Speaker 7: this digital back and forth. Here's the one thing that
• 23:39
  Speaker 7: they cannot overcome. Get this number in your mind, five
• 23:45
  Speaker 7: point three seven optilion that goes to his DNA profile.
• 23:53
  Speaker 7: That means that the chances that it was somebody else
• 23:57
  Speaker 7: are at that range. It's amazing. And look look what
• 24:01
  Speaker 7: I have here. See it came off the snap, Nancy.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Again, because that's exactly where the DNA was found.
• 24:12
  Speaker 7: Yeah, and I don't think that he was necessarily, you know,
• 24:17
  Speaker 7: planning on this. But listen, I don't know if you
• 24:21
  Speaker 7: could hear that, but this has got and I'm fascinated
• 24:24
  Speaker 7: by this. I have been since the case. This little
• 24:28
  Speaker 7: ring right here where the snap actually actuates, it's a ridge,
• 24:32
  Speaker 7: and so if you're actuating it with your thumb and
• 24:36
  Speaker 7: you drag your thumb across it, anything can be collected
• 24:39
  Speaker 7: in here. We think about touch DNA. If he's got sweat,
• 24:43
  Speaker 7: you know, that's coming off of his hand, it could
• 24:46
  Speaker 7: be deposited there. Both are sources for DNA, ones richer
• 24:50
  Speaker 7: than the other. But you know, when you begin to
• 24:52
  Speaker 7: think about these numbers, Nancy, and just to put it
• 24:54
  Speaker 7: in perspective, I'm not a real fine math guy, but
• 24:59
  Speaker 7: that's twenty twenty seven zero's Nancy. That's an amazing number.
• 25:05
  Speaker 7: And so the reason I'm saying this is that I
• 25:08
  Speaker 7: don't think they have anything else. And they can parade
• 25:11
  Speaker 7: all of the experts up there that they want to,
• 25:13
  Speaker 7: but the one thing you can't get away from at
• 25:16
  Speaker 7: the end of the day. Yeah, they don't have the knife,
• 25:18
  Speaker 7: but they've got this sheath and his DNA is on it,
• 25:23
  Speaker 7: and that's a heck of a mountain for them to
• 25:25
  Speaker 7: have to climb. This was not murder. This was pure
• 25:29
  Speaker 7: on butchery using this combat knife. This is a k bar.
• 25:36
  Speaker 7: This is something that our troopers have used since just
• 25:40
  Speaker 7: prior to World War Two. Marines are famous for it.
• 25:42
  Speaker 7: It's a combat knife, it's a fighting knife. When all
• 25:45
  Speaker 7: of that is said and done and we see the
• 25:49
  Speaker 7: interior of that house and we see what kind of
• 25:52
  Speaker 7: butchery was perpetrated on these poor kids, they better damn
• 25:57
  Speaker 7: well have something else because that dog gonna hunt, because
• 26:01
  Speaker 7: the jury is going to be put into position to
• 26:04
  Speaker 7: observe all of this, and then you're going to get
• 26:06
  Speaker 7: somebody with a PhD in DNA sciences and they're going
• 26:10
  Speaker 7: to put them up on the stand and I don't know,
• 26:13
  Speaker 7: I don't know what the defense can put up there
• 26:17
  Speaker 7: that can thwart that particular attack on the part of
• 26:21
  Speaker 7: the defense.
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: Hey Scott, You've testified it in so many cases. And
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: when I would prepare cases for trial, I'll get my
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: own case ready rock solid.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Right then I.
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: Would think about what they were going to do and
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: how I could fight it. Do you remember under Reagan
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: he came up with the Star Wars defense. We were
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: going to shoot down missiles before they ever hit our homeland,
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: the US, right right, Yeah, that's what I try to do.
• 26:47
  Speaker 4: So I'm thinking what are they going to do and
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: how can I destroy it? They are going to attack
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: the DNA, the science itself.
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: Which you know, five point three seven octillion.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: I think is more war people that have ever in
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: history that we have lived on Earth. Okay, so it's him,
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: But what they could do is attack DNA science in general.
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: But they could attack chain of custody of the DNA.
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: They are likely to pull an OJ claiming that O. J.
• 27:20
  Speaker 4: Simpson claiming that the cops wanted a defendant so badly
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: they decided depending on Coburger, but also the placement of
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: the knife and the genesis of the knife, Joe Scott.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: They could claim, Hey, yeah, I went to a gun
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: and knife show and hipped up a knife like that,
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: and I tested it and I put it back, and
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: some other dude, I always used the sod defense.
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: Some other dude did it. Must have used that knife.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: That's where they're going to go. I think, yeah, I.
• 27:50
  Speaker 7: Agree with you, and I've thought. I've put a lot
• 27:52
  Speaker 7: of thought into that relative to gun and knife shows,
• 27:55
  Speaker 7: you know, and the idea that he would randomly, you know,
• 28:00
  Speaker 7: you guys in law use this term reasonableness. Is that reasonable.
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: Crime stories? With Nancy Grace.
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: While Brian Coburger's defense team tries their best to alibi him,
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: to place him anywhere other than the crime scene, damning
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: video emerges of a white Elantra identical to coburgers near
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: the King wrote address.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: That's the crime scene.
• 28:36
  Speaker 12: Part of the hearing on the fourteenth is to talk
• 28:38
  Speaker 12: about the different parts of that video that we've received
• 28:42
  Speaker 12: and how we need the whole contacts. This is the
• 28:45
  Speaker 12: video that they say places this car near the residents.
• 28:49
  Speaker 12: We've received little tiny pieces of that. We think Brian's
• 28:54
  Speaker 12: right to a fair trial means the public needs to
• 28:58
  Speaker 12: know that they've withheld the audio from a great portion
• 29:02
  Speaker 12: of that. And then it starts a long time before
• 29:04
  Speaker 12: the little clip that we've received.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Man, is she burying the lead?
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: She's complaining about the audio not being attached to the video.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: Here's the bombshell.
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: There you are hearing the defense attorney for Brian Koburger
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: and Taylor talking about the existence of video that places
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: Coburger's car, the white Elantra, near the crime scene.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the big deal.
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: We believe that there's gonna be two different video clips
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: shown to the jury, one near the home and one
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: near the gas station there at the corner. And I'm
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: gonna let Chris mcdonnet describe the gas station video what
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: he believes it will portray, and what the video at
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: the home we believe is going to portray. Guys with me,
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: an all star panel makes sense of what we.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Know right now.
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: Oh you know what, I was just having my tea
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: and I don't want to leave fingerprints on the cup,
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: so I just thought I would use these. Okay, but
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: that said, go hey, Chris McDonald everybody, take off your gloves.
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: I promise not to collect your DNA, well not during
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: the show anyway.
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: Go ahead.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so Nancy loved the gloves. Right next to the
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: murder scene, there's a house right on the corner there,
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: and outside in the light socket for the front porch
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: was an active surveillance camera. I believe that the evidence
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: will show that that car comes up that street multiple times,
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: and those are the clips that they're holding back, as
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: well as the additional piece of evidence that they're going
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: to show is away from the scene. They're going to
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: show that that vehicle was either a coming into the
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: crime scene area and or be leaving. And I don't
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: know if they're going to be able to correlate that
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: in a relationship to some of the phone things, because
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: remember he turned his phone off, so that und of itself,
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: it's going to be interesting.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: Guys.
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: I want to hear exactly what the defense attorney and
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: Taylor said and interwhining about the video.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: What are we learning? Listen.
• 31:25
  Speaker 12: Part of the hearing on the fourteenth is to talk
• 31:27
  Speaker 12: about the different parts of that video that we've received
• 31:31
  Speaker 12: and how we need the whole contacts. This is the
• 31:34
  Speaker 12: video that they say places this car near the residents.
• 31:38
  Speaker 12: We've received little tiny pieces of that. We think Brian's
• 31:43
  Speaker 12: right to a fair trial means the public needs to
• 31:46
  Speaker 12: know that they've withheld the audio from a great portion
• 31:51
  Speaker 12: of that and that it starts a long time before
• 31:53
  Speaker 12: the little clip that we've received.
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: To Essin Scott Morgan, forensic expert and professor at Jacksonville
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: State University, I was listening to every word she says.
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: And Taylor is complaining about little tiny pieces of the
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: video placing the car near the residents, according to police, and.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: She doesn't like that, and she thinks that's not fair.
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: But what it is is different video cameras picking him
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: up along the way.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: Did you decide for that? Am I feeding you? Spoon
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: feeding you?
• 32:24
  Speaker 10: Now?
• 32:25
  Speaker 7: Here's the thing, you know, these ring cams and these
• 32:28
  Speaker 7: CCTV obviously they're more prevalent today than at any other
• 32:33
  Speaker 7: point in time in history, and so we don't necessarily
• 32:36
  Speaker 7: know about where all of these clips are coming from.
• 32:40
  Speaker 7: We do know the area that he was in, allegedly,
• 32:43
  Speaker 7: this car moving back and forth is going to be
• 32:45
  Speaker 7: the most densely populated area in this geographic location. You know,
• 32:50
  Speaker 7: you get out in these areas that are far flung.
• 32:52
  Speaker 7: Remember the loop that they talk about that where they
• 32:55
  Speaker 7: collected they were trying to collect images off of these
• 32:58
  Speaker 7: gas station cams and wherever where else the car may
• 33:00
  Speaker 7: have passed, this is going to be the target rich
• 33:02
  Speaker 7: area though around that residence at that point in time.
• 33:07
  Speaker 7: Did they shake the bushes enough to collect enough of
• 33:09
  Speaker 7: this data out there to piece the sin completely together?
• 33:12
  Speaker 7: Apparently she thinks they may have.
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: Idaho murder suspect Brian Koberger gets pulled over by law
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: enforcement two times, not just in one day, but actually
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: within minutes of each other, on his way for Thanksgiving
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: break to his parents' home, and ne'ar the Pocono's.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: I just got to say, two times within minutes. That's
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: no coincidence.
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: How y'all doing today?
• 33:38
  Speaker 5: Good good?
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: Take a look at your driver's lines and real quick,
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: if I could.
• 33:43
  Speaker 6: See, is right up on that man?
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: Man?
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: You right up on the back end of that man
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: old job for tailgating?
• 33:51
  Speaker 13: Is this your car?
• 33:53
  Speaker 6: Okay?
• 33:54
  Speaker 13: Cool?
• 33:55
  Speaker 6: Where you headed?
• 33:57
  Speaker 7: Actually, well, we're coming from WSU.
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: Where are you headed? He later says, we're going for
• 34:07
  Speaker 4: tie food. And the dad's like what you are seeing?
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: Bodycam video when a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriff's Department bodycam
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: when they pull them over and ask to see Coburger's
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: driver's license. Now, it was argued back and forth, and
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: I claimed vehemently that this was no coincidence because there
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: were two pullovers by local l E law enforcement in
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: one trip home. When does that happen? How often do
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: you get pulled over? I rarely get pulled over. So
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: you get pulled over twice and you never even get
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: a ticket. Oh no, that's stunt to high heaven with
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: me right now. Howard Bloom, author of a brand new book,
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: When the Night Comes Falling a requiem for the ITO
• 34:59
  Speaker 4: student murders, which is amazing, and in his book he
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: outlines how these two pullovers nearly costs the FBI their investigation,
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: or so they thought.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: Take a listen to more of the pullover. What's w
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: s U.
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's burdens.
• 35:26
  Speaker 7: That is SWAT team area.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: So we're okay, I have a hard time hearing you
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: because of the traffic.
• 35:33
  Speaker 13: So you're coming from Washington State University and you're going where?
• 35:40
  Speaker 14: Oh you going back to Okay, Yeah, we're a little light.
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: To Howard Bloom, I'm gonna circle back to the fact that, unasked,
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: he starts talking about talking about SWAT's team, SWAT Team
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: swarming the area. Methink, thou dost tests too much in
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: the immortal words of William Shakespeare. Nobody asked, nobody asked
• 36:06
  Speaker 4: about the Idaho murders. Yet he's dead. He's just regurgitating,
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: vomiting the information.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: When nobody asked.
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: But I want to circle back to the so called
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: hat box operation that you described so well in your
• 36:21
  Speaker 4: book When the Night Comes Falling.
• 36:23
  Speaker 15: Explain and why did the FBI, who absolutely was following
• 36:28
  Speaker 15: Coburger as seen his dad across the country, thought that
• 36:33
  Speaker 15: their entire operation may go up in flames.
• 36:36
  Speaker 14: Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Coburger
• 36:40
  Speaker 14: was a person of interest. They decided this earlier, before
• 36:45
  Speaker 14: they even told the Moscow Tesk Force. They kept this
• 36:48
  Speaker 14: to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first
• 36:52
  Speaker 14: reason was that it was the identification was based on
• 36:56
  Speaker 14: the genealogy genetics investigative genetic geneality, and they thought that
• 37:00
  Speaker 14: wouldn't hold up in court. Or a much more cynical
• 37:05
  Speaker 14: explanation would be that the FBI didn't want to share
• 37:08
  Speaker 14: the credit for Coburg's arrest with anyone else.
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: So they go off and follow him.
• 37:14
  Speaker 14: And they have cars, they have a plane in the
• 37:17
  Speaker 14: air that's following his route, and suddenly they see Coburger
• 37:22
  Speaker 14: being stopped, and they don't know what's going on, and
• 37:24
  Speaker 14: they don't know what to do. Had they think a
• 37:28
  Speaker 14: local cop, a local sheriff had seen the be on
• 37:32
  Speaker 14: the lookout for notice and swooped in on this Hondai
• 37:35
  Speaker 14: a Lantra, or they're also wondering how is Coburger going
• 37:40
  Speaker 14: to react he is a suspect in a quadruple homicide.
• 37:45
  Speaker 14: Is he going to get on the put his foot
• 37:47
  Speaker 14: on the accelerator and tear out, or perhaps he's going
• 37:50
  Speaker 14: to shoot anything as possible of the officer who's coming
• 37:56
  Speaker 14: in to give him this traffic ticket.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: Then nine minutes later.
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: It's almost laughable, Howard, because the FBI actually has a
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: bird in the air watching. They see one pullover by
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: the Hancock Keunty sheriffs, and Coburger goes on his way.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: And then there's another pullover.
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: Don't you know they're like, what is happening down there?
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: Why are they pulling over our quadruple murders suspect. I'm
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: sure they were just and they couldn't say anything. And
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: they're watching from a bird right.
• 38:33
  Speaker 14: Yes, they have assess and they're flying overhead. You know,
• 38:35
  Speaker 14: it's a hawk, waiting to swoop down in case anything happens.
• 38:38
  Speaker 14: In effect, and they've been building this case for six
• 38:41
  Speaker 14: weeks and they're finally getting closer, and they think the
• 38:44
  Speaker 14: whole case is going to be blown apart before they've
• 38:47
  Speaker 14: connected all the dots, and they are filled with a
• 38:51
  Speaker 14: sense of panic.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: But discipline what Howard.
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: They were right and this is no offense to Indiana
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: at all. But I understand where the FBI is coming from,
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: and you know how much I hate the Feds.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: But that said Chris.
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: Mcdonnald joining me, Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: and star of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, if
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: they had stopped Coburger and he nutted up and they
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: arrested him or sped off, anything could have happened. Because
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: we can't we can't predict what Coburger is going to do.
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: Just like his father, he had no idea what his
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: son might do. We would never have gotten the evidence
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: that we got. When they finally got home to the
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: Pocono area, remember they were surveilled. They went in finally
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: or in the early morning hours, they catch him I
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: think in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: separating his trash from everybody else's trash, and they see
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: him go throwing trash in the neighbor's receptacle. None of
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: that would have happened if local authorities had arrested Coburger
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: or for a traffic violation, or if Kyburger spun out
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: and brought about his own arrest.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: So I understand why they were worried.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and absolutely, and not only that. If you remember,
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: this officer is leaning in, so if he would have
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: seen anything in plane view, you know what Doc Morgan
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: was talking about, you know, any blood transfer or anything
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: like that. Well, the clock starts ticking right then and there.
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: If this officer starts diving into this traffic stop, that
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: you may have this fugitive task for surveillance team, you know,
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: overhead and behind him going hey, what the heck is
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: going on here? So, and quite frankly, I hate to
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: say it, but I've seen this as well as many others,
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: numerous at times where you know, this thing could have
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: gone south really fast. But fortunately they cut him loose
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: and they were able to connect those stocks.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off, good
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: bye friend,