Latest / Side Note... / Divine Intervention, Recovery & the Gift of Aging with Robin Norwood
Transcript
- Melissa: So if you've listened to my podcast or been in my store, that this is my heart. this is my book, my memoir about my dad, my cowboy dad, who was an alcoholic. And I talk a lot about this. of course, I've written about it and recently adapted it to screenplay. And it's just really given me a lot of opportunity through the years to understand myself. and the relationship patterns that I have gotten myself into. If you know my story, you know that I married my high school sweetheart. I was divorced by my mid-20s and then through the rest of my 20s, 30s, and 40s, really kind of found myself in lots of different relationships and have had the opportunity to go through therapy, psychoanalyze what's going on, looking at the patterns even becoming sober and going into recovery from alcohol myself and really understanding this idea of love addiction and relationship addiction and where it comes from. And so I gotta tell ya, you know, probably 10, 15, 20 years ago, a friend of mine recommended that I read a book. About all of this, and I did, and it resonated. And then several years after that, I actually got to meet the author, and it was another divine intervention for me. so I am so excited to be able to interview today's guest for the episode. Her name is Robin Norwood, and if you're I would say at least 45 or older. You've probably heard of her book called Women Who Love Too Much. And it came out in 1985. It was a New York Times bestseller for a couple of years. it's been printed in several different countries and just way before its time, talking about relationship addiction and love addiction and where that comes from and what that looks like and what that feels like. So I had such a wonderful conversation with Robin and just also talking about her life experience and aging as women. And so I hope you enjoy this interview as much as I did. Welcome to Side Note with Melissa. speaker-0: let's get started I was actually looking at your books here. And you know what's so funny is, do you remember how we met? If you don't, that's okay. speaker-1: What I remember is that I was talking to Rod and he was talking about you. And then the whole thing of recovery came up. Yeah. And that's and then I'm not sure if I remember when we first met face to face though. I don't know if I remember that. speaker-0: I had to look back at my some of my Instagram posts. It was in twenty twenty twenty one. Okay. Mm-hmm. So only about five years ago. It seems like it's longer than that. But yeah. Yeah. And so the story is so divine intervention. Like it gives me goosebumps just even think about it. But I don't know if you remember or not, but so I'd been dating Rod and we Rodrigo and we Had talked about things because we were struggling as a couple and we wanted to work on things. And I had already read Women Who Love Too Much years ago because of my challenges. And we'll get into that. But but I had already read it. And then somebody had recommended to me, have you read Women Who Love Too Much? And the what's this crazy is this is like five years ago. So people were still talking about it. I said, I have read that, but I think I need to reread it because of everything that was going on in my personal life. So I reread it. It was on my mind. I'd started talking to Rodrigo about it. And so we were very he was very open to this idea and you know, counseling and and all the subjects and everything. And so, but I never mentioned to him the book. I mean, like, why would I? It wouldn't necessarily be like, You've got to read this book and it's so good. And then one day in my, this was before I was a full-time lavender farmer. I was still working as a manager of therapists for CADA in Santa Barbara. And he called me. He was with you. And you guys just had that conversation about who I am and my cowboy dad and addiction and all that stuff. And he said he calls me and I'm in my office and he goes, do you know Robin Norwood? Do you know of Robin Norwood? And of course it was fresh in my mind because I just reread the book from myself. I thought he was joking. I go, because it was so random that he would call me at work and ask me this. And I said, You mean the author Robin Norwood? And he goes, He goes, Yeah. I go, Well, of course I do. my gosh, she wrote Women Who Love Too Much. And this is what we've been talking about. And, you know, and I went on and on and on. And then that's when he said, Well, I met her and she's with me today. I freaked out. speaker-1: remember that because I remember sitting on his computer. Yeah. speaker-0: My gosh, Robin, I freaked out. And so then he did something so kind. And because I'd already had your book, by the way. Look at my notes in your book. we're talking, this is insane. I love it so much. So I'd already had your book, but he was so sweet. He ordered me a new one so that you could sign it. And what you signed just gave me goosebumps because I think he'd given you a copy of my book. And so you had signed in here. You said to Melissa, thank God I didn't meet your dad. I could have gotten in so much trouble. I can't wait to meet you. speaker-1: So gorgeous. my god. speaker-0: I know, I know. how divine intervention just holding up these books and the content of them again, it gives me chills because it was such divine intervention. And then I got to meet you and you were just as lovely as I imagined in my head. So let's actually talk about Women who love too much. So in my notes, I had to look that up this morning. It was published in nineteen eighty-five. Nineteen eighty-five. speaker-1: Year I turned 40. speaker-0: my gosh. speaker-1: Yeah, 40. So it's a long, long time ago. And the amazing thing about that book, I mean, talk about having legs. It's still in print all over the world. It's still being published all over the world. When the the Soviet Union was breaking up and those countries were emerging one by one, by one by one, they all wanted the rights to publish Women Who Love Too Much. Which was so thrilling to me, I can't even tell you. So it just keeps going. Just keeps speaker-0: Going. speaker-1: yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: And it was on the bestsellers list too, New York Times bestseller. speaker-1: for two years it was number one. in the self-help section of the the bestsellers, yes. It it was, I think it was number one when it was both paperback and hardcover because they overlapped for a little while. You've got two of the originals, but it's had a lot of incarnation since then. So it's people ask me, they say, Do you think women still love too much? I mean, don't we know better by now? And my My take on it is this. It's worse because now everybody has a cell phone. And when you have a cell phone, it's like if you are a it's as though you were a heroin addict and you've got a fully charged outfit right there to shoot up with any second you want to. That's what a cell phone does for someone who loves too much. It's instant. You can practice that addiction in a moment. We used to have to sit by the phone, you know, and wait for somebody to call us back. Sometimes you would spend years doing that. Not the case anymore. So and and people are so used to having trying to get their way really fast. That's a that's a new thing. it wasn't the way I grew up. You had to wait for things, but now it's like, I want what I want. I want it right now. Why isn't it happening? And I'm gonna dial again or whatever you call it. So yeah, it's worse. Wow. Because those those urges are the same. That that need to be validated as being wanted, being attractive, someone loving us, someone thinking about us. And I think because women and men really are basically very different, I don't think men think about us all the time like we think about them. Yeah. You know, when when we go in the door, say we've had a date with somebody, we go in the door, we immediately start thinking about will he call me again and when. I don't think men do that. I don't think they get into their car, drive away, and think, okay, I'm gonna call her in 10 minutes. But we'd take that call if it came in 10 minutes. Yeah. Most of us were just made that way. So we expect them to think and feel the way we do. And that almost never works. Yeah. We're disappointed and sometimes we're angry and resentful and thinking they should change, which isn't gonna happen. speaker-0: Yeah. And that's really, the main message of this book. as writers and book lovers, we talk a lot about how important titles are. And Women Who Love Too Much is so powerful because I think it pierces our heart. It as soon as we read that, we I don't know any woman who can't, you know, relate to this, but tell me a little bit about. what the book is about, because there's, in the last 15 years or so, we've talked about this concept of love addiction and what does that mean and what does that look like? And I think this touches on that. And so back in 1985, you're writing about this. And then also your background, like why did you write this book? speaker-1: Well, I wrote the book because I am a woman who loves too much. And I think I always have been. I think the first boys that I got crushes on from grade school on were probably gonna grow up to be alcoholics because that's what I did. I I just was drawn to alcoholics like a magnet. And the title, I love the title too. I I was driving to work one day and I always worked in the field of addiction. And I remember going up Milpus in Santa Barbara, and this title came into my head, Women Who Love Too Much. And I thought, my gosh, I know the book that goes with that title. And I did. I knew it inside and out. I knew what it was to be a woman who loved too much. And I also knew what was needed to recover, because by then I was learning how to recover from this thing. So it took me three and a half years to write the book. And during those three and a half years, I did not go near a bookstore or a library because I knew if I did, I would think there are too many books out there already. You have you haven't got a chance, Robin. Don't do it. And so I just I just isolated myself from that whole world of books. And I remember a psychic who I used to see, she was very, very gifted. And she said to me before any of this started, she told me that I was going to be on television. I was going to be interviewing people. And then later I would be the one to be interviewed. She said, You're going to write a book. It's going to be really big big. She said, if I told other people this, it would be like it was all made up. But for you, it's all going to happen. And she said, when you write your book, you won't have to thank anybody because you've done this all by yourself. And, you know, in a way that was true. I mean, I had a wonderful editor. But she was wonderful, Laura Golden. But my publisher, he's gone now, so I think I can say this. He never liked the book. In fact, he hated it. He speaker-0: is a speaker-1: it was a he. Okay. He told me the last conversation we had before I went out into the world to promote the book, and he gave me a wonderful send-off as far as promotion goes. He really did the job. Took a full page ad out in the New York Times book review stuff. And the book just soared, absolutely soared. But he didn't like it. He wanted me to change the title. Took me to lunch at a very posh place. His offices were down on Sunset Boulevard. And wanted me to change the title. And I knew where that title came from. I wasn't going to change that title. So I just said, well, maybe we can talk about that later. But there was no way, and I hadn't published anything. But I I couldn't I couldn't wiggle on this. And the last thing he said to me before I was launched out there as an author was, Your book is boring and depressing and nobody's gonna read it. And it was the biggest thing he ever published. ever. And he had some wonderful books that he published. But nothing like Women Who Love Too Much. speaker-0: Did he ever come back and say something to you? speaker-1: No. Of course not. In fact, he took my then husband and I to dinner at another very hosh place in Santa Barbara and tried to talk me into writing a book about men who love too much. And I said, I can't write that book. I don't, I don't have the expertise. I only write about things I understand. And he kept putting pressure on me. And I had to get up and walk out of that restaurant. And I didn't know if my husband would follow me, but I had to get out of there. And this is about the loveliest restaurant in this whole area. in Montecito, I mean, as lush as it gets, and I'm working out, but I had to because I can't do something that isn't true for me. And I think that's why Women Who Love So Much has has worked, because I'm one of these women. I know how it works. I was interviewed one time, I think it was up in San Francisco, and they had a psychologist on with me. And she said, well, let's talk about these women. I I said to her, I said, I am one of these women. She probably is too, because most of the people who go into the field of therapy, that's what we are. Yes. We go, we become nurses or therapists. I mean, many of us, because we want to help. We we want to be good. It's just the way we're built. We look for somebody that needs what we think is going to be helpful and we step right in, whether they've asked us or not. So anyway. that's the story of the beginning of the book. speaker-0: And also if you feel comfortable sharing, how why do you think you were one of the women who loved too much? Like what was your childhood like? when we talk about psychology and attachment theory and all that stuff, was there something in your childhood that that made you attracted to this particular type? speaker-1: Well, of course there was. And I also think that whatever we grow up with, and some people grow up with horrific things that they have to live through, that combines with our character. And I've I just happen to be the kind of person who in a strange sort of way as a loner, I I think for myself. And I don't, I'm not real comfortable joining groups. That didn't work out very well when I was a child. I I think when I was very young, I was admired, but not liked. So, whatever. and then certain things happened, and there were groups I wanted to be in, and I wasn't I wasn't part of that. And I really learned to stand on my own two feet. When I when I wrote Women Who Love Too Much, I actually thought they'd yank my less my license as a marriage and family therapist because when you're licensed in the state of California. You signed something that says you will not criticize your profession. And I was very technical of my profession in the book. Yeah. Because we weren't talking about alcoholism. And I understood why. I didn't understand it either. I was working in the field of addiction and didn't understand that I was marrying alcoholics. I didn't see it. That's what we call denial. But to get back to your question, I grew up in a family where, well, this is maybe too much information, but I was conceived the night my mother and father said goodbye to each other. They were in Hawaii during the Second World War, and she sailed back to the mainland to go back to live with her mother. They had one daughter and she had no idea she was pregnant with me. So I wasn't exactly a wanted child. And she never got back with my father. He came to get her and she wouldn't leave with him. She stayed with her mother and she stayed with her mother through four marriages. The only one that ever lasted was the one where the man was very willing to live on that piece of property with this mother-in-law, and that lasted until she died. so and she didn't like me. My mother did not like me. That's just the way it was. We were like oil and water, we never did. We always repelled each other. And I I've been into astrology. And when you put our charts together, it's like, my God. In fact, that's what convinced me of that astrology worked. When I first tried to compare our charts, it was like vanilla. And I thought, well, this can't be true then because we weren't like vanilla. And then because I can't do numbers very well, I had the date wrong. When I got the right year, my God. It was just And that's exactly how it was. We couldn't be in the same room without our hackles going up. Yes. That's the way it was. So there was a lot of rejection. I was always trying to get approval. And the better I did, and I did pretty well at a lot of things, the less my mother liked me. That's just the way it worked. Uh-huh. So I kind of picked people, I take out the kind of, I picked men who also didn't want me. They didn't want I wanted them. They didn't want me. I wanted them to want me. Yeah. And that's been a theme in my whole life. I'm not sure it's going to change. I'm now 81. I think I would still do it today if I were out there looking for somebody. So yeah, that's where it comes from, I guess. speaker-0: And so also you kind of touched on this a little bit, this idea of not only addiction and alcoholism, but codependence. And in my training, I know we have similar training in addiction. You know, they talk about how codependence is almost harder to deal with than the actual addiction itself. What are your thoughts on codependence in regards to what you're speaking about in your book? speaker-1: When when people are addicted, whether it's to another person, whether it's to a substance, whether it's to a behavior, whether it's to fantasy, I don't care what it's what it's to, that addiction, if it's addiction, it makes the person's life unmanageable and they can't stop on their own. Yeah. If they're not fully addicted, then they may be able to pull back. And I know in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, there are The stories at the beginning of all the stories at the end of the book that talk about they stopped in time. And these are all people who were developing alcoholism, drinking way too much, and were able through self-will to stop. But that's not a true alcoholic. It's not a true addict of any kind. Because if you're really an addict, your self will is powerless over whatever that addiction is. Yeah. You can try to put the brakes on, but sooner or later you're going to indulge in that behavior again. And that's what I was talking about with the cell phone. how tempting is that? Just to see if you can get that reaction you're so craving. Not real different from somebody calling their dealer. Yeah. It's the same. speaker-0: The dopamine hit. speaker-1: Well, yeah, except that drugs and alcohol are so much more dependable than another person. If I want to feel good and I've got to get you to change in order for me to feel good, my chances go way down. If I got a bottle or a drug, it's a lot more likely it's gonna work, at least for a little while. Yeah. So it's it's much harder, I think, to be a relationship addict. Because another part of it is that let's face it, we can live without drugs and alcohol. But it's more like overeating. You've got to develop a relationship with food that works for you. You can't stop or you die. Right. We at some level have to keep on interacting with other people. So we've got to learn how to do that. And it often means such contrary action, not saying the things we want to say, not doing the things we want to do. It's it's just having the brakes on almost all the time. Take every move, every word, and needing a lot of help from something bigger than our personality, because the personality cannot heal the personality, in my opinion. Can't. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. speaker-1: It's part of the problem. So there's got to be something larger, weightier, more powerful than that, that self-will to interrupt that cycle of addiction, whatever it is. speaker-0: And that really is higher power. For some people, that's God. For other people, it's however they want to view higher power. It's knowing that it's outside of you, right? speaker-1: Well, and it can be inside too, but it's bigger than your personality. It's bigger. And it always requires sometimes a tremendous measure of surrender. Yeah. See, we like to do it our way. We like to think we're running the show. And I knew this woman who was an alcoholic, and I she was a recovering alcoholic. I invited her to a play that my daughter was in when she was a little girl in grammar school. And so she shows up at this little lunchroom where they're putting on the play, and I'm telling her where to sit and do and all this stuff. And she says to me, She says, You have a great deal of self will. And I kind of, you know, sort of puffed up and said, Yes, I do. It's gotten me through a lot. And very quietly she said, in the program, we call that a character defect. I had no idea what she was saying, but I never forgot that. And years later I understood. That thing of I can run the show. I I've got the answers. I mean to admit that we don't and that we're powerless. my gosh, that's hard to do. It we have to become so beaten down by whatever that addiction is doing to us before we can admit that. Yes. speaker-0: Yes. Yes. And this whole thing with, you know, this love addiction. I've talked to a lot of people about this. is that like sex addiction? Is it no? They're diff. I mean, it is in that they're both addictions, but it's different. It's that behavior, it's that addiction to relationship. And I've talked with you about this. you know, I've really struggled with this this love addiction, even compared to alcohol. The love addiction is harder for me to handle, I guess. But talk to me a little bit about love addiction, but specifically the withdrawals. Because when I when I try to talk with people about that and what that feels like, they're like, well, that sounds like you know, withdrawals from drugs or alcohol. And I'm like, it is. I mean, it feels so So painful. Can you talk about that a little bit? speaker-1: Well, of course I can. I remember when I was writing Women Who Love Too Much, and I I remember where I sat for the most part when I was writing that book. And there was this night very late, because I usually wrote in the middle of the night, and I was writing about how you feel like the wind there's a hole in you and the wind is blowing through. And I remember tearing up. And that was the only time when I teared up when I was writing that book. But it was such a powerful physical sense of the emptiness, the just this aching, yeah, aching emptiness. And in the programs, all those programs of recovery that are 12-step programs, they refer to that as the God-sized hole. That's the hole that a higher power can fill if you can surrender to it, if you're gonna tell it what to do and what you want, and give it a Christmas list. Know here's what I want, give me that. Yeah, then that's not gonna work. But that's exactly what it is. And I know the last time I was involved with somebody, I knew I needed to end it, and I did, but that didn't mean there weren't those times at the beginning of the end when it was very painful. And I just would offer that up to my higher power and just say, please take this. And I remember it would happen a lot when I was driving. That emptiness would just fill me up with the wind blowing through. And I'd realized that some time had gone by and I didn't feel that way anymore. And I may have had to do that over and over and over again, but every time I did it, it worked. Yeah. I offered it up, it was removed. And the times that I needed to. Became farther and farther apart, and I could breathe more. And then pretty soon I wasn't thinking about that at all. So and I will also say that as the years have gone by, and I have been involved occasionally, very occasionally. I mean, decades have gone by between being involved with somebody and not, the recovery time is so much faster. So much faster. Thank God. You know, yeah. Maybe because I know how to use the tools better. Yes. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Get to surrender really fast because I know nothing else works. Yes. And until you get to that point, there's always another book you can buy and read. I got so many letters from women who've read women who love too much, wanting to know the next thing they should do. Yes. Just wanted to say, could you go back and read it much more slowly? And you've done, you know, take the notes. Practice what's being Offered because it's not something you can get overnight. It, I hate to say it, but it takes years. Yeah. speaker-0: It does. And I agree with you, the recovery time between each one has gotten better. And you've been such a light and so helpful to me in regards to this. But I I think, and I actually have it here, this one here. You mentioned this to me. This is the fact that you could do a follow-up book from women writing letters just proves that it resonates with them so much. I mean, I got teary-eyed when you just talked about the withdrawals because it it it's so true. That's exactly what it feels like. tell me the story if you don't mind. I'll never forget the story when you said that the book was resonating with women so much that not only you wrote a follow up book called Letters from Women, but that you had a hard time going places without women recognizing you. Like, and I could I could understand that because that you know, they're just like, my gosh, like. You have finally put words to feelings and please help me and tell me about those examples that you shared with me. It's crazy to me, but I believe it. speaker-1: Well, I can think of three. So I'll just start with the first one that comes to mind. I was married at the time after the book came out. And that husband and I were sitting outdoors at a little place to eat. And this woman came up, pulled out a chair at our table and said, Do you mind if I join you? I've read your book. And she sat down and started talking about the book and how she related. And, you know. I guess it's a little bit like when people see someone they've watched in a soap opera for years. They think they know that person because that person's been in their living room and they've maybe even talked out loud to that person when they were, you know, doing the drama on TV. And I think people felt that way about me, that I knew them so well, them personally, because I'd somehow reflected what was going on in their life in my book. One time I was with my son, and there was a, there still is a a book, a store called the Yes Store in Santa Barbara that happens at Christmas. And artisans come and bring their wares to sell for the Christmas market there. Every year it's in a different place, and it's kind of speaker-0: I love I love it. speaker-1: Yeah. And I was in there with my son one day, and it was a a stairway, and this woman came running down the stairs and she said, You're Robin Norwood, aren't She said, I read your book. It doesn't apply to me, but and then she just started in with everything that qualified her as a woman who loved too much. My son got so angry. He said after he said, Mom, I don't know why you put up with that. But what can you say to somebody who is, you know, even though she couldn't admit that she was relating, she was relating. I mean, there's no doubt in my mind she was relating. And you don't just cut somebody off. And then the third time I can think of is one time I was in a furniture store and I heard this woman saying, Excuse me, excuse me. And I thought, my God, she's after me. And I just, I just got out the door. I got out the door. I got in my car and I drove away. And I called my daughter afterward. I felt so guilty. And she said, Mom, if that was a guy saying that to you, you wouldn't feel guilty that you walked away and you got in your car and drove away. And I thought, yeah, that's true. And I'd I had enough by then. I was getting tired of people throwing their lasso around me and wanting to tell me their story. So I did. I ran away. speaker-0: my gosh. I love the the content of the book, the the topics. I love to talk about psychology and psychoanalyze and all this stuff. But what I also love is that, you know, I'm a writer and my one of my dreams is to be a New York Times bestseller. You know, and this is shifting a little bit, but It's just so dreamy to me, all the things that come with that, whether it's a house or, being able to be a writer every day of your life and and sharing stories. How did that change your life? I mean, you as an author, a New York Times bestseller, what did that look like? How did that feel? speaker-1: I think I'll tell you the downside of it because granted it was a huge blessing. And I remember when I was still married to that third husband, I asked him one night after the book was out of my hands, was on its way to being in print. I remember where I was in the house and I said, How many copies do you think it'll sell? And he said, 20,000. And I went back up the stairs. And I was up in the bedroom and I was thinking, and I'm very bad with numbers, but I was thinking, well, one out of ten persons is an alcoholic. And for every alcoholic, there are four people whose lives are so impacted by that person's alcoholism that it's almost more of a determining factor than which sex they're born as. And I came back and I said, I think it'll sell two million. And it's probably sold way more than that by now. I don't know. But it was a book and it still is a book that so many the first time the first foreign rights that were sold were sold in Japan. And I remember when my agent told me that, I thought, Japan. That doesn't make sense to me, Japan. Because I felt like the cultures were so different. I think it's still in print in Japan. Yeah. And it's been in print in the most diverse cultures. All over the world. I mean Iceland, Egypt, you name it. It's this book has been printed there. Israel, I mean, all the Latin countries, on and on and on. And I guess the truth is, and I kind of thought it was just sort of a Southern California book, that women have a lot more in common than not. This is the way we think, this is the way we we relate. And I hate to say it, but this is the way we suffer. speaker-0: I think you're a romantic like I am or like I used to be. Do you still believe in love? Like there's a lot of conversation going on right now. Maybe it's just my algorithm on my phone because I'm 51 and single. So I'm getting all kinds of stories about single cat women and how we're thriving. Do you still believe in love? And do you think that marriage or singlehood is better. I know I'm generalizing are better for women. Or what do you think about all that with your wisdom and your experience? speaker-1: Well, my my wisdom and experience come from a lot of failure in that department. I've had three marriages and three divorces. And I guess what I was going to finish up with that story, and I forgot to do it, which is so typical of me at this age, but I had to get a third divorce. I had to. And I didn't know why. I just didn't know why. All I knew was that this marriage wasn't honest, that I was faking it. And this was back in the 80s when we had these answering machines, and somebody would record a message and you come home and you press the button and there would be their voice and whatever. And sometimes you'd leave it on accidentally and it would record the conversation you were having. And I I heard a couple of conversations I had with this man I was married to, and I sounded so fake. And I was so uncomfortable with that. And I actually, and I'm not going to go into the reasons, but I actually didn't understand the reasons why I needed to get out of that marriage for years afterward. But what I did know was I felt the most horrible shame that I'd written this book, that I told women I had the answer, that I really believed that, and I was getting my third divorce. And frankly, I wanted to die. And I came very close to dying. I got very, very sick. And I had some surgery that saved my life. And when I woke up in the hospital, and the nurses had all read my book. they're nurses, right? They're all women who love too much. So this nurse came in in the night, they wake you up in the middle of the night after my surgery, and she said, She said, All of us in the in the operating room were praying for you. And I remember thinking, why didn't you mind your own business? Because I really wanted out. I just wanted to die. I felt like I'd said my last word on relationship addiction. I'd written letters. I'd answered everybody's questions. And I was done. I was done. And I thought it was the end. I just wanted to pull the ground over myself. What I and it took seven years for me to turn that around and come back out into the world, which is when I wrote my last book, which is Why Me, Why This Why Now? And I love that. speaker-0: I remember you saying that. And I let me just show it. I've got it right here. And I've got notes in this one too. speaker-1: It's a very different kind of book and it's not for everyone. I remember sitting in my favorite restaurant in Santa Barbara and looking around when it was raining. And I was thinking, okay, how many women in here would benefit from women who love too much? And I thought, probably most of them. And then I looked around and thought, how many would read why and get something out of it? And I thought, probably nobody in this room. It's kind of a self-selected audience, but that's okay. It's what it is, that book. But let's see, your question was about whether I believe in love. Yes. Of course I do. I also think that a good marriage is extremely rare. And what I believe is that what is required in a in a really good marriage are common interests, common goals, common values, and A really strong sexual attraction. And without all those bases covered, it gets rough. It gets uncomfortable. And I the woman that told me that first three, the common interests, common values, and common goals, she had one of the two best marriages I've ever seen. The other one is my first ex-husband and his present wife. They have wonderful, wonderful marriage. They have so much in common. They laugh all the time. They are so supportive of one another. And this woman who told me that about the common interests, common values, and common goals, she and her husband are both marine biologists. And she told me when she we were talking about this, and this was decades ago, she said, when we aren't getting along as husband and wife, we can just be biologists together. We can go off and take trips and study whatever we're looking at in the ocean. And we have that in common. And then one day we'll kind of look at each other and go, hi, hi there. And it comes together. Yeah. If you don't have that, then it just gets to be a bigger and bigger divide. And I think sometimes when people celebrate like a 50-year anniversary, they're not celebrating 50 years of marriage. They're celebrating maybe 45 or 40 years of endurance. And I'm not sure that's worth celebrating. Yeah. Yeah. I had a neighbor when I lived in Solvang, and she and her husband were putting together this big celebration for her parents' 50th anniversary. And her grandfather, or her father rather, he said, I'm not coming. just a lot he wasn't happy yeah and he didn't want to party saying he was speaker-0: Exactly. But good for him for being true to himself. speaker-1: Right. My gosh. So marriage and love and all that, rare, rare, yeah, and wonderful when it happens. But most of us, in my opinion, have lessons to learn and we learn them through things not going so well. Yeah. Yeah. Things pushing at us, making us uncomfortable, bringing us to that surrender, maybe over and over again. husbands, wives, whatever, parents, lessons. I don't think they really come here to be comfortable. I'm here to wake up and to become more inclusive in what we understand and what we have compassion for. Yeah. And those lessons come through pain. They don't come through everything going well. Yeah. I think when everything goes well, we just get a little bit more selfish. Yes. We want more. Yes. Because I think we deserve it. Because everything's, that's us. We get to have a good life. Well, sooner or later something's gonna not go well. Exactly. speaker-0: Yes. Yeah. And I really relate to that because of course being a daughter of an alcoholic, my dad being the cowboy, but you know, in high school you talk about psychology and the attachment theories, the anx I'm I tend to be anxious attachment and I tend to attract avoidant, you know, these alcoholic cowboy types. And so in high school it was, you know, really kind of finding a father figure replacement, which is why I got married young and then divorced young. But kind of what I've noticed through the years and and being attractive, attracted to these types of men, is that, you know, there of course there are lovely things about it, but As I've gotten older, especially the last relationship, I really struggled with for various reasons, but as far as my part, I just felt like I was consumed by it so much. I loved it so much. But I realized when I get out of relationships, I tend to be more of a better human, just like more productive. You know, I'm not so distracted by the relationships. And so that's just something I've noticed with myself. when I'm single, I tend to be more of service to others. but it's tricky because I do have those love addiction tendencies. And so when I am in relationship, it just it feels so good. You know, it feels so good. I want to pivot a little bit because I want to get to some other things. I'm just looking at my notes here. I want to talk about so you've had such a beautiful life as a therapist and an author and a writer, and but you are doing new things now in your life and you're so open to aging, to the the topic of aging and talking about it instead of being afraid of it. And I was just telling somebody in my store the other day, and I I love so much all the women that come into my store. Okay, great. You you buy a bottle of lotion. This helps me pay my bills. But I love the conversations that happen in my store, and it's always with women. And we were talking about age the other day, and I said, I'm 51 now. And of course I love it when somebody says, 51, my gosh, you look great for your age. I'll you know, that's never gonna get old, right? But I I I love that. But lately I've been feeling like, okay, thank you. And what else? Like, let's talk about something else. because I know it's not always gonna be like that. And I just really appreciate some of the things that you're doing. So The first one is you came up with a product line a few years ago called Sensationally Silver. Tell me about that pivot because a lot of my podcast is about reinvention. And man, and again, I just got goosebumps when we talk about your past and your success and your wisdom and going through all of that. And then you're like, you know what? I think I want to do this. I think I want to come up with some products. And tell me about that. speaker-1: Well, what started it was the same thing that started Women Who Love Too Much. I got this name in my hand. Sensation. I was sitting out on my back porch. I don't know what I was thinking about otherwise, but suddenly I got this phrase, sensationally silver. And I thought, my gosh, that is the perfect name for hair care products for women with gray hair. And I had let myself go gray at 40. I love my gray hair. Used to be kind of salt and pepper. I had Great gray hair from the beginning. I mean, I spent, I think, a year going like this in front of the mirror to see if I had enough because have to have enough gray for it to look good. Otherwise, it just looks like you can't afford to go to the hairdresser. Yes. And then of course, with COVID, so many people chose to go gray because they couldn't go to the hairdresser. So that was a big shift for a lot of people. And I know a lot of women really struggled. My daughter struggled so much. She works for me in my company. And somebody said to her, Well, I noticed you don't have gray hair. And she felt like she needed to go gray, to be honest. But my gosh, that transition for her, you just felt like she was digging the hole, jumping in and pulling the dirt over. I mean, life was over. She has the most gorgeous gray hair. It's gorgeous. And she gets compliments constantly. And like me. neither of us went through life getting complimented on our brown hair. Nobody ever stopped me in the streets, my God, I love your hair. Yeah. Which happens all the time now. So there's that, you know, there's that whole thing. I got the night, the name. I actually got someone to come over to the farm and talk to me. He made quite a big line of shampoo, and they had created one for gray hair that had a different name. And I was trying to pitch him. Sensationally silver because his was not a very flattering name. And when I looked at his shampoo, see, it's like when the electric car first came out. Car companies didn't want people buying electric cars. They were very discouraging of that market. It was the same thing. This I hate to be graphic, but this shampoo was about the color of bird poop. I mean, it was this bird gray. Yeah. And it was the ugliest color. And okay. And usually they s sold it for blondes who were tending their hair blonde, which of course gets brassy unless you do something to tone that brassiness down. And that's a legitimate thing for shampoo for gray hair, is to also use it with blonde hair. But I wanted something that celebrates getting older because as Claire all used to say, you're not getting older, you're getting better. Yes, we get more wrinkled. Yes, things hurt more, all of that stuff. We can't, we're not as strong, we can't move as well. We literally use lose our grip. I can't grip anymore. But on the other hand, we have all this in the bank. This wisdom, this experience, these things that are of value. We've learned a lot from living a long time. So if we pay attention to that, how Life has mellowed us and Just opened us up in ways that we never could have imagined. That's the gift of aging. Yeah. Now we can't always impart that. And we certainly can't choose to whom we're going to impart it. We can use it for our own, our own comfort, our own solace. We can share it with others who are our peers. And once in a while, somebody younger will say, Tell me about da-da-da. And we get to, you know, we get to be, we get to. Plun our our depths and offer that to someone else, our wisdom, whatever. I like to think of myself as like a classic car. The value is in the age, but I take a lot of maintenance to keep running. So there you are, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't go back to being 14 for anything. I remember what 14 was like. It was punishing. Yeah. The self-consciousness. I was the best I was ever going to look in my life. And I was the most miserable, most fourteen year old. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: So speaker-0: But your hair is beautiful. my gosh. It but I love that you gave that example of that you never got compliments on your brunette hair. It's crazy. But speaker-1: Didn't not once. No. Wow. speaker-0: you're right. Not all women are as lucky as you with that color. I mean it's speaker-1: A lot of gorgeous gray hair out there. and sometimes, my gosh, I am out in the world and there's so many of us who are gray haired now. And I think, you need my products because it's a little yellow, it's a little dull, or a good haircut. you know, yes, haircut. Yes. And then we can make the most of ourselves. I I'm very saddened by anybody giving up as they get older and just deciding it doesn't matter how they look because How we feel about ourselves is how we live our life. And a lot of how we feel about ourselves has to do with how we carry ourselves in the world. We stand up as straight as we can and we walk proudly and we feel like we have presence with my products. And I have a podcast, which is also called Sensationally Silver. I'm offering, I hope. Information, inspiration, and validation to persons of age. And I love that phrase, persons of age, because it's like persons of color. It means you have this quality. This is yours. It's something that's right in you. Our age is in us. We wear it inside and outside. And it's something to be very, very proud of. And I want everybody to be proud. I don't, I don't want us to treat ourselves. The way often younger people treat us, which is like we don't exist, we're invisible. Go over in the corner and shut up, and just I don't know, live out your time, but don't make waves. No. This is the time to take all the breaks off. As many as you can take off. Because what's to lose? Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: And people have said this before, but I'll say it again, and that is not everybody is gifted with a long life. I I've my best friend passed away in her early 30s. we just don't know. So if we get to age, it's such a beautiful thing. And and like you said, it doesn't come without challenges, but it's it's such a beautiful gift, I think. You mentioned your podcast. So I love that that you have women on your podcast and You openly ask their age and they openly share and they talk about their life experiences. Tell me a little bit more about your podcast. speaker-1: Well, it's for men and women because men get old too. And I do like to have my guests be 60 or over. And I like to ask them that right at the beginning of the podcast because they have to qualify for this thing. Sometimes I have experts in fields that I really feel need to share their expertise with older people. And they're the best people I can find. So come on on, you know. one of the things that I love exploring. Is death and dying. For older people, that's the next major thing that's going to happen. And I was talking to one of my guests recently, and I told him that this thought had occurred to me before we had our interview that for persons of age, dying is like going to the prom when we're younger. It's this, it's this thing that celebrates what we've been up to now. And then there's this transition into a whole different way of being in the world. And I go to meetings here in Santa Barbara. We have a chapter of what's called the International Association of Near Death Experiences, INS. And people come and talk about their near-death experiences. They talk about what happened when they were out of the body, sometimes for a long time. Yeah. And then back in. What that whole experience was like, how it's changed the way they do life. And almost everyone talks about an expansion of love, this sense of putting in a state of love. And that includes gratitude, it includes compassion, it shifts the perspective from what we don't have or what we've lost or whatever. And and some of these people are very young when these things happen. Yeah. It shifts it from that, from I wish I had da-da-da, to I am so blessed. I'm so blessed to carry this forward into this level of experience to bring that here, to bring it home. And it isn't always about that sort of thing. Sometimes it's about planning your own funeral. We had one with a lovely, lovely woman who's a funeral director. And we called it planning your exit party. And some people doing their celebrations before they die. all kinds of things that have to do with that transition and accepting that this isn't something to be resisted, it gives a deeper meaning to our existence. And and I also, I'm just going to tack this on. I also believe that often the suffering at the end of life helps us to let go of this physical body. It's just a vehicle. It's a vehicle that we that we use to get around on this dense earth plane. And there comes a point where we don't need it anymore. We have a lot of pain. It helps us become willing to let go of that vehicle. Let it go. Go get out of it. Yeah. So that's my little mini lecture on that whole thing. But I love doing this. I I think that death is the last taboo. Almost nothing is against the rules anymore. But when you start talking about being old and dying, yeah, there's a especially from younger people, it's like, don't talk about that. I'm gonna catch it from you. And I get it. I was a young person once too, and I wasn't interested in any of this. I was kind of repelled by it. But I find speaker-0: Well, and we do have to talk about these are the things that people don't want to talk about. But I love that you said it's that death is the last taboo. But it's like reminding people of the obvious. Like we don't get to stay here. Like we have to talk about this and and to embrace that. And I think the near-death experiences I recently read some books by I think it was Laura Laura Lynn Jackson. her name. She's I think she's a medium. She talks to people on the other side. And just having, you know, my dad who passed away when I was 34 and he was only 54, I've definitely had experiences where I knew that there was something higher than me. There was, it was either him or somebody else that was comforting me or sending me some sort of a message or something. There are so many people who are still afraid of dying. I mean, not only do they not want to talk about it, I mean it's it's something that they're actually afraid of. so I really I appreciate that insight because I think that that needs to be talked about more. is there anybody on your podcast that really stood out, like a favorite guest or somebody that you're hoping to have on your podcast? speaker-1: recently interviewed a man whom I heard in the ions meeting and I am so impressed with him. His name is Dr. Adam. I've got to get his last name right because I kept getting it wrong. I kept putting a consonant in there that wasn't right. It's Risbee, Risbee. Risbee. I kept putting a K in there. Adam Risby. And he is a neurologist. He works in intensive care with people who are in the last stages of life. His wife is also what he refers to as an intensivist. What an incredible word. An intensivist. And when he came to speak to us, he said, he asked us this audience that was in front of him. He said, I want to ask you some questions. And he asked about people's near-death experiences, how many, how many have had unusual and all these hands went up? He I'm going to change what I was going to say to you. I had this whole thing planned, but now I'm going to do something different. I'm just going to tell you stories. And he was wonderful. And when I interviewed him, my gosh, he was wonderful, wonderful man. He has been at the the deathbeds of so many people and watched what happens in families. It's not always pretty. Sometimes things come out that have been stuffed down a whole lifetime and they come erupting out when the person is taking practically their last breath, all sorts of stuff. And I remember when he spoke in front of all of us in this, in this auditorium, actually it was in a church. someone asked, What do you do to help the family with that? And there was this pause. And the way he answered was so beautiful. There wasn't one. Drop of reproof in his answer. He said, I don't see that as my task there. I'm just there to hold a space where people can be as they need to be. Yeah. So he wasn't, he wasn't trying to fix anything. And me, former therapists, I'm always thinking I need to fix something. But what a revolutionary idea. And that acceptance, that complete acceptance. And not thinking, it's gonna be too late in a minute, you've got to do something different, but just this is part of what needs to unfold. Yeah. There's an infinity of time. And everything is allowed. Yeah. All allowed. I was so impressed with him. I and I speaker-0: You have already interviewed him on your podcast? speaker-1: have okay that's going to be available very soon as you know our podcasts are speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: still getting a little bit of editing but by the time this comes out you can watch Adam okay okay good and he's so worth so worth seeing speaker-0: What you said though about how he says that's not my job. My job is just to keep this space. What a testimony to recovery of wanting to fix people. speaker-1: He said that another one of his colleagues refers to what he does as radical acceptance. Uh-huh. And I love that phrase because acceptance at any level is radical. Yeah. But there are degrees of acceptance. And when things look so critical and so chaotic, most of us want to come in, you know, with the fire hose to put the fire out or whatever. I mean, it's like, my God, fix this thing. And His job as he sees it is just to hold the space in which everything is accepted. Everything's part of the picture. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: That's I see that as a very high calling. Yeah. I'm speaker-0: Cannot wait to watch that. Can't wait to watch it. I want to respect your time. I have, I think we have about 10 minutes left. I have a few more questions just to to finish up. I do want to go back though, just to mention this really quickly, because I remember when you told me about this book and you said it's not for everybody. And but there was something that resonated with me about you saying that. But then also when I read it, I feel like, aside from the psychology, I feel like For writers and authors that I've heard being interviewed, you know, that there's this pressure. You know, they had this New York Times bestselling book, or maybe it was made into a movie, and now everybody thinks, like, what's coming next? And what they do next is oftentimes their favorite thing, but it's not the one that sold so many copies. And I feel like that's kind of what you had shared with me about this. it's called Why Me, Why This, Why Now. But you can see you said it doesn't resonate with everybody, but I I think you and I are connected in some way, Robin, because this spoke to me in ways not like women who love too much. It was just different. And I actually had, I'd have to look through my notes, and that's another conversation, but I actually had some psychic, bizarre, psychic moments when I read that book. I'll have to tell you about another time, but I was like, okay, now for me at this age, I pay attention to those moments. You know, I go, okay, God, what what are you telling me? I'm I'm listening. And so, as random as it was when you told me about this book, I started reading it. And at first, I could say I was like, this is a little bit different and challenging, but I kept reading it. And there were some psychic moments that I had when I read it, and I thought, my goodness. So I still encourage this book. My question for you is do you feel like you'll be writing any other books? speaker-1: I have no idea. I am not somebody who's in love with writing. Some writers are. Yeah. They have to write. They love the process of writing. They don't feel really alive unless they're writing. I only write when I feel like I want to grab people up by the shirt and say, You need to understand this thing. So I wanted all the women who were in relationships with alcoholics and didn't know it. I wanted them to read Women Who Love Too Much. See if I'd put alcoholism in the t title. Those women wouldn't have touched it just like I wouldn't have years ago. Yes. It was like, that's not me. That that's not my problem. So I wanted to lure them in and get them to look at the dynamics of what happens when you're with an alcoholic. Obviously, the book is about other kinds of relationships as well. But that was my primary motive to catch all those women, because there are so many of us who are in relationships with alcoholics, don't know it, and Nothing is going to get better until they understand that that's what you call this thing. It's having diabetes. You can have lots of well-meaning people saying, take care of yourself and get rest. If you don't treat the diabetes the way it needs to be treated, you're not going to get better and you may die. And they say about alcoholism, it's the only disease that you can die of even if you don't have it. And it's true. Lots and lots of people who love alcoholics. die way before the alcoholic does. Yeah. So there's all that. Yes. This book speaker-0: Cha. speaker-1: I had to change in order to write this book. And that took seven years. I had a seven-year period where I didn't really do anything. I hardly left the house. I every time I did, I'd end up back in the hospital. And I'd never been in the hospital over and over and over again. I get kept getting stopped by life. But my life was taking this big turn. And that Is why why got written. I couldn't write a sent. I had the title for years and I couldn't write a paragraph. I couldn't really even write a sentence until the seven years was up. And then it just came pouring out. And it came out very quickly. And it's a very dense book. it's like when they pack, you know, they they talk about like something you're gonna wash your clothes with it, that's all packed with whatever. the way this book is. It's pretty dense, but it's it's still stories because I think how we learn is from stories. Yeah. The theories just whatever, they go away. The stories stick. speaker-0: it's a guide to answering life's toughest questions. So that's pretty broad. speaker-1: Well, it's about why things happen to us that we wish weren't happening. Uh-huh. Why we have to be uncomfortable, why the pressures happen in our life. And they're always for us to begin to change, to open to something, to say yes to something we've said no to. Yeah. We tend we human beings tend to paint ourselves in corners. We say, I will never do this, I will always do that. Because once upon a time that seemed like what was comfortable. Yeah. Life doesn't stay the same. If you're a parent, when you learn how to parent a two-year-old, they're not two anymore. Now they're four. Whole different thing. And then pretty soon they're 14. my gosh. Whole different thing. And then they're 28. I mean, it's like, yeah. And that's the way all of life is. Our body keeps changing. This world I'm living in is so different from the one I grew up with. my gosh, it's so different. It's unrecognizable. So that's life. Yeah. And the pressure is to let go of what we think makes us comfortable and be open to letting life teach us and change us and grow us into a more complete human being. Always challenge. speaker-0: Think I need to reread that one too. I have one more question. you had mentioned at at the beginning of our call, just that I look happy and and my question to you is about aging and your advice and what you recommend, and just looking back on your life, just any feedback that you have. Because for me, my experience has been. I've always tried to choose the path of of things that just bring me so much joy. And and that has meant giving up a lot in certain respects. So when I moved to California in my early twenties, it I didn't realize it at the time, but it was the cost of living was so high there. I often tell people I felt like I had a love affair with California because and it was out of my league because Eventually I got it, but but I still chose it because I loved it so much, the beauty that surrounded me. I'd always wanted to live there, all of that stuff. And even though some things happened that were so extremely challenging and and traumatic, that brought me joy. And I feel like that that has kept me young through the years. And now that I'm in Texas. I'm in a place where I never thought I would be, as you were saying. you know, I thought I would always stay in California. I loved it so much, and I still do. But now that I'm in Texas, I mean I'm closer with family, but the it just there's so many things about it that I love, and I feel like that's what keeps me looking young, is because I feel less stressed, I feel more relaxed, I have this. concept of slow living. And I'm doing that pretty well, and I've got good boundaries and still things that I'm working on, but I feel like that's what keeps me younger, looking and feeling. But in this time of aging, what what would you tell people or what would you tell your younger self or anything that you want to share about this this aging? We're all aging. From the moment we're born, we're we're getting older. speaker-1: I don't know if my younger self would have listened. Probably not. But what I would say is respect every part of your life and avoid calling anything a mistake. I don't believe in mistakes anymore. I believe that there's a tapestry to life and it's woven, and you don't want to pull any thread of that tapestry and say, this shouldn't have happened, because that creates. A vacuum that that means some part of that weave doesn't work. It's all necessary. The things that were this this is really the core of what I'm trying to say. The things that I would have done the most to avoid, that were the most painful, the most just horrific to live through, have always been the most valuable, the most important, the things that. Have changed my life in the most positive ways. Ultimately, it's like a spiritual alchemy. It takes the things that are that are just awful and turns them into gold, pure gold. And that gold is something I can share with other people. It becomes my experience, strength, and hope that I can offer to someone if they're going through something that I understand because I've been through it. So The book is an example of that. Everything I've ever written has been an example of that. And I like to think of my daily life as an example of that as well. I keep drawing on these things that once upon a time just made me hurt, cringe, whatever. They're all so valuable today. And that's a perspective that comes from age. I think sometimes you have to live a lot of years to be able to look back and say, my gosh, there's a pattern here. There was a I was on and I didn't see it for a long time. But sure enough, step by step, this thing was developing into this life that I've been experiencing and that I've been completing step by step. So yeah, that's how I see it. No mistakes. I I heard a woman I know, what did she call them? She said blessings. That was her word, blessings. Blessings and lessons. Yeah. So much lovelier than mistakes, which sounds like you should have done it lessons. Yes. speaker-0: Yeah. Well, speaker-1: Well speaker-0: I just have to say we talk a lot about in psychology modeling behavior. But I just think that you have modeled the behavior for not just women for everybody, but just the life that you've lived and how you look at it and reflect on it and your gratitude. Robin, really, I'm so blessed that I. divine intervention, came into the picture and I got to meet you. And sometimes I reflect on my relationships and that one in particular. And I think maybe that was the only reason that I dated him because I got to meet you. speaker-1: I don't think so, I know. speaker-0: I think there are other reasons, good ones, very good ones. But that's at the top. That that's at the top. I mean, it's so it's so obvious. so I just thank you for your contributions and everything you're doing that you have done, that you continue to do. And you're just a blessing to me and somebody I look up to. speaker-1: Melissa, thank you. That's so kind. So kind. Gratitude's the key to everything. It is the key to having a good day every day.