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The Startup Freezing Humans For Tomorrow · EU-Startups Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 0: You are now listening to the EU startups podcast.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to this episode of you starts podcast.
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: as always I'm your host Dave Senna Garcia.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: The newsletter here at you start ups.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: if you're a Termini ill would you consider crier preservation?
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: That's the question that Emil Kenziora is looking answer with his startup.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: tomorrow dot bio Now tomorrow dot Bioe isn't interesting company because there really aren't many like it in Europe.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: In fact according him they were the only one There, of course specialist in cryopreservation for both humans and pets.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: And he was able to chat with me over these thirty or forty minutes that we had.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: a conversation about the evolution how they offer what they offer, the intricacies of cost and process.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: And even the forward-looking nature of technology where he hopes that technology will be in five to ten years from now.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Of course it's a very sci-fi sounding prospect but just last year They raised five million in funding so really is moving forward.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: It has legitimate offering.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: I hope you're looking forward for this conversation.
• 1:18
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• 2:35
  Speaker 1: Hello, Meal... ...And welcome to the Eustarps Podcast.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: It is a pleasure to have you on
• 2:39
  Speaker 0: Happy to be here
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, I'm very much looking forward to today's chat.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: it's not really something that we have Very common here on the podcast cryo preservation startup.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: It's not a really anything that we've talked about before.
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: so uh i'm looking forward To this chat with you and i'm sure you have a lot to bring.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: So now before we get started into the combo?
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: I'll just give You chance to present yourself even though i've given A little a little sneak peek as to who you are And what do.
• 3:10
  Speaker 0: Yeah, awesome.
• 3:10
  Speaker 0: I am Neil by training a doctor so i didn't technically start out as an entrepreneur at least not that very traditional path.
• 3:17
  Speaker 0: So I studied medicine to go into research?
• 3:20
  Speaker 0: This was my original plan right then?
• 3:22
  Speaker 0: Research for what now is the longevity field which of course has been kind of like a hype topic over the last couple years.
• 3:30
  Speaker 0: But then after being in research and doing cancer research, I got a bit disillusioned with how fast research is or how slow more precisely.
• 3:40
  Speaker 0: And all my high school friends went either into computer science or into business school right?
• 3:47
  Speaker 0: So since i didn't know what to do ,I started companies with them .
• 3:51
  Speaker 0: I had a small company during med school.
• 3:54
  Speaker 0: It was a really relatively easy jump off point.
• 3:59
  Speaker 0: So we built two companies, one data analysis company and one meta-company but then sold both of them because in the last one like twenty nineteen or so I started thinking about okay now i want to get back.
• 4:14
  Speaker 0: what do you wanna do which is this longevity topic?
• 4:21
  Speaker 0: I left the company at the end of twenty nineteen and then we sold it in early twenty-twenty.
• 4:31
  Speaker 0: And since that, i've been running a cryopreservation company and foundation like multiple things on that field as you mentioned is not an absolute standard topic but its very much moonshot for better or worse.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Yes, well it's definitely is very interesting.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: It obviously would come my eye.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: and What made me interested in having you here?
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: In the first place?
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: so I want to get into kind of the beginnings Of at all.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: So if you've kind of mentioned that a you always had this drive for longevity And Kind of innovation in that field can tell me little bit about why that Is.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: yeah there are personal reason.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: what made you wanna dedicate yourself today?
• 5:15
  Speaker 0: Yeah, so the plan was always to start companies very from very early on right like when I was.
• 5:22
  Speaker 0: I decided to study medicine and take that path When I was Seventeen maybe someone that ballpark.
• 5:28
  Speaker 0: I started at the end of eighteen.
• 5:30
  Speaker 0: I started studying medicine.
• 5:31
  Speaker 0: So I made that decision in the years prior.
• 5:35
  Speaker 0: thought about you know What's the best past too?
• 5:38
  Speaker 0: To do what I want to.
• 5:39
  Speaker 0: So my motivation has never changed since I'm like, you know, I don't know.
• 5:42
  Speaker 0: Seventeen maybe even sixteen or fifteen somewhere in that relatively early teenage years just the path of how i'm going towards what I want to do long term has changed and has adapted over time but The original goal was always To try to figure out How I And others can live as Long As They Would Like.
• 6:05
  Speaker 0: So this has always been my personal motivation.
• 6:09
  Speaker 0: For whatever reason, it's not like any of my parents are still alive or no one... I didn't have a moment at least nothing that i can remember in my teenage years where felt dying is not particularly great idea but for what ever reason came to the conclusion and I still hold that conclusion.
• 6:30
  Speaker 0: so from early early childhood teenage years, I never felt like...I always enjoyed life.
• 6:38
  Speaker 0: Right?
• 6:39
  Speaker 0: We'd really like to see the future!
• 6:42
  Speaker 0: I definitely am very excited about what will be possible from a technology standpoint and social economy economical standpoint and so on.
• 6:51
  Speaker 0: And last but not least i strongly personally prefer being alive To being dead.
• 6:59
  Speaker 0: And right, most people I think.
• 7:01
  Speaker 0: if they think about it there's very few who say hey i'd rather be dead tomorrow than live another day.
• 7:07
  Speaker 0: Right.
• 7:07
  Speaker 0: and at least If I predict how will feel when i'm in fifteen sixteen seventeen eighty maybe ninety or a hundred?
• 7:15
  Speaker 0: It is going to be unlikely for me that some point im gonna say Hey!
• 7:20
  Speaker 0: I mean you have crazy amounts of pain.
• 7:21
  Speaker 0: okay so sure.
• 7:23
  Speaker 0: Maybe then You might change your mind but everything goes kinda well.
• 7:28
  Speaker 0: I think i will never change my mind.
• 7:30
  Speaker 0: But of course medically, right?
• 7:31
  Speaker 0: And this was kind of the original kind Of.
• 7:34
  Speaker 0: you know The original plan medically.
• 7:37
  Speaker 0: yeah that's not possible like You know and almost everybody in a very very few people Make it to age of ninety.
• 7:46
  Speaker 0: So so this is your original plan at D or other goal.
• 7:50
  Speaker 0: the plan originally was to go into med school do an MD then kind of during half once I'm like add on a PhD program, and do an MD-PhD program.
• 8:01
  Speaker 0: And then have the experience to do the basic science part but also the translational science part.
• 8:07
  Speaker 0: how to implement this stuff that you do in Basic Science How To Implement That Into Clinical Practice?
• 8:15
  Speaker 0: Then build a company around that actually makes it work and then offers the pill, treatment.
• 8:21
  Speaker 0: You name it?
• 8:22
  Speaker 0: I don't know exactly what but offers to think that lets people live how long they would like to
• 8:28
  Speaker 0: live.".
• 8:30
  Speaker 0: That was the original plan.
• 8:32
  Speaker 0: yeah as i said some deviations over time
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: Sure well so you've mentioned that you had experience in other companies both founding an exiting.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: according my notes here there were med lanes on feedback.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: Is that right?
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah,
• 8:48
  Speaker 0: yeah I built a few more companies.
• 8:50
  Speaker 0: so i started early again during med school but those were not startups.
• 8:54
  Speaker 0: they're more like.
• 8:55
  Speaker 0: you know how people start out building webpages later and we did enterprise development.
• 9:00
  Speaker 0: We didn't have an outsourcing company But these are not startups More companies.
• 9:06
  Speaker 0: This was what funded my first startup And then it went on feedback which is the data of this company.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: Okay, so then and I want to quote here that your web page because this line kind of really stood out for me It has to do with what we're talking about.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: Here in the meet-the-team section it says under you He has no intention Of ever starting another company and considers tomorrow dot bio his life's work.
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: That's a quote.
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: So hey You know why is it?
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: They use see This as Your Life's Work Because You've Had experience Building Other Companies And You Know You Have An Act You have an Interest.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: What Makes You Say No This Is It
• 9:41
  Speaker 0: Yeah, so the other companies there were always stepping stones towards that goal.
• 9:45
  Speaker 0: That I just laid out right?
• 9:47
  Speaker 0: So my goal is to figure out how to not die Right um Which of course i'm the first admit it's not an easy problem by any means.
• 10:01
  Speaker 0: The other companies are started because when i was in last year of med school Now I had an understanding of how easy or difficult research is.
• 10:10
  Speaker 0: Right?
• 10:11
  Speaker 0: that I have and we had it still half.
• 10:40
  Speaker 0: So, i started those companies not because I was particularly personally super motivated for data analysis but It wasn't relatively easy point to get into the game To learn how do build company is too you know sure builds skills and so on.
• 10:54
  Speaker 0: And then The next one after.
• 10:56
  Speaker 0: That's a bit of the first one result.
• 10:58
  Speaker 0: two question pro in US Austin Texas Um, the second one.
• 11:02
  Speaker 0: then we started which was this meta tech company or digital health back.
• 11:07
  Speaker 0: Then it wasn't a big topic right to telemedicine and house calls and so on.
• 11:11
  Speaker 0: um my co-founder was computer scientist.
• 11:15
  Speaker 0: I was adopted at that point right?
• 11:16
  Speaker 0: So kind of good connection attempt.
• 11:18
  Speaker 0: We had built companies before together But but again also a mettech company or like a digital health companies Was not necessarily what i wanted to do for very long time.
• 11:26
  Speaker 0: It just felt at that point like, you know this will be the next big thing.
• 11:30
  Speaker 0: and um That will be something if we can then relatively soon.
• 11:33
  Speaker 0: Relatively Sell relatively expensively which met tech The whole field developed significantly slower than we thought back them right?
• 11:42
  Speaker 0: So there's this We still sold it in in twenty-twenty but Not not as uh, it was not as big as we thought Uh I then the reason why am now saying this is a company that i do not want to sell right.
• 12:00
  Speaker 0: it's because its.
• 12:02
  Speaker 0: This is or has become over the last couple of years and have been off course following along gravity field while running these other companies in.
• 12:12
  Speaker 0: this is for four rounds almost ten years no, and for around like six years or so now I'm running this company.
• 12:25
  Speaker 0: And of course, by now I am good friends with basically everybody in longevity from all the biotech companies in
• 12:31
  Speaker 0: U.S.,
• 12:33
  Speaker 0: almost everyone who is involved that feels some capacity...I have not found anything better yet!
• 12:41
  Speaker 0: Anything better towards actually living significantly longer?
• 12:46
  Speaker 0: There's stuff that might make you live healthy And there's definitely stuff that, you know where we can might still have a higher chance of being able to run a marathon when your seventy five.
• 12:57
  Speaker 0: But this I have not found anything that has a good chance of making you live longer or allowing you two with longer.
• 13:05
  Speaker 0: so cryopreservation and what i'm doing it tomorrow by was the is the best bet in that regard.
• 13:09
  Speaker 0: So um It's another company that i'm running because i want to sell it off and make a buck like whatever right?
• 13:15
  Speaker 0: This Is A Company Where I'm interested in the mission, and it's a personal intrinsic deep-intrinsic motivation to make this company work.
• 13:24
  Speaker 0: To be fair once that company works... And if that company worked?
• 13:29
  Speaker 0: It's going to be really big business at the same time.
• 13:32
  Speaker 0: but what i am not gonna do there you know is someone comes around offers me fifty million for their company.
• 13:38
  Speaker 0: then im gonna say yeah thankyou no thanks Yeah, so that's kind of the difference.
• 13:47
  Speaker 0: This is not a company I want to quickly sell and have an exit or whatever.
• 13:52
  Speaker 0: this for all intents and purposes do-or die companies both for their mission from financial standpoint.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: Okay, so there's a lot of questions I have from everything you've said and i'm gonna kind of jump the gun on one that stands out to me most even though it would be jumping forward in conversation where we'd naturally get.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: But do want ask isn't all still theory?
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Because this is going too big when works but... How will we know
• 14:22
  Speaker 0: when
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: it works, right?
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Because you've cryopreserved patients and imagine terminally ill people.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: So there must be... so do you have a checklist?
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: or I'd say okay We Have Advancements in Cancer that says It Will Cure This One.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: Oh!
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: We Have A Patient Who Was Terminally Ill From This Great.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Let's Address Us Now.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: You Know How In The Near Future Is That What Will Be able to See It?
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Do You Think
• 14:49
  Speaker 0: So?
• 14:49
  Speaker 0: so from a company prospectus there, I would say that currently they're three types of it works.
• 14:55
  Speaker 0: One is from the financial standpoint right?
• 14:57
  Speaker 0: From a unique economic stand points cryopreservation.
• 15:00
  Speaker 0: It's good to okay two really good business Right.
• 15:03
  Speaker 0: So once we have you know, I don't know ten twenty thirty forty fifty maybe a hundred thousand people sign up for cryoproservation It becomes really good businesses from a from a unique economics.
• 15:14
  Speaker 0: then For that, we technically don't need to even have any... It doesn't need work.
• 15:21
  Speaker 0: yet as in we can revive anybody.
• 15:24
  Speaker 0: And for those of you who might not be super deep into cryopreservation the idea of cryoproservation is basically stuff from science fiction movies where if you want to fly another star and freeze down Even though it's not freezing You put them into cryostasis Right?
• 15:37
  Speaker 0: Then you wake up once your reach other stars In our world.
• 15:42
  Speaker 0: here this isn't space travel prime space travel primarily, even though this might be a use case down the line.
• 15:47
  Speaker 0: It's more so if people when you're forty or fifty get terminal cancer that doctors tell them they have six months to live and then can choose either you want to be cremated or buried?
• 15:56
  Speaker 0: Or do you wanna be
• 15:58
  Speaker 0: cryopreserved?".
• 15:59
  Speaker 0: Then one more person would say I'd rather be cryo-preserved for the chance medical technology in future has advanced enough.
• 16:09
  Speaker 0: So that just as a short side note, the second it works is once it starts working on animals.
• 16:18
  Speaker 0: Once we can cry or preserve a rat or mouse like you know?
• 16:24
  Speaker 0: That's normally how biotech research has been done right.
• 16:26
  Speaker 0: You do with the research in mice and at some point It works And then you go into clinical trials.
• 16:31
  Speaker 0: At that point it would probably be big business In regards to investors who join early Can do good secondaries.
• 16:38
  Speaker 0: We will still not sell the company.
• 16:40
  Speaker 0: But at that point, once you can do this in mice, cryopreservation has the unique advantage against other biotech companies.
• 16:49
  Speaker 0: That if it works in reds or mice, its probably very easy to scale up to humans at that time.
• 16:55
  Speaker 0: so... Very easily!
• 16:56
  Speaker 0: You know?
• 16:57
  Speaker 0: In relative terms.
• 16:59
  Speaker 0: So but once- Once that works.. You could have good secondary opportunities and then really work mean means you put someone into a cryostasis.
• 17:08
  Speaker 0: you can resuscitate, revive them from cryostasis.
• 17:11
  Speaker 0: To be fair that might be decades out and I'm not making claims if it's like two decades or eight decades.
• 17:19
  Speaker 0: this is not easy by any means does very difficult.
• 17:25
  Speaker 0: we usually have investors invested in us who has a significantly longer you know, investment horizon than typical VC funds.
• 17:33
  Speaker 0: So it's more like family offices evergreen farms with your high net worth people billionaires and so on.
• 17:38
  Speaker 0: yeah um but these are the kind of three steps.
• 17:42
  Speaker 0: how works financially if a lot of people sign up from a biotech standpoint in front of traditional bio tech can have?
• 17:49
  Speaker 0: How projects progress?
• 17:51
  Speaker 0: If you can do it in red or mice And then humans would be off course to holy grail.
• 17:58
  Speaker 0: And then once you can bring people back from the debt, it's going to be probably a trillion dollar company at that point.
• 18:05
  Speaker 0: Because they should actually revive someone right?
• 18:07
  Speaker 0: But again I'm making no claim of if that has got any time soon.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Okay and what kind of assurances are there for customers in terms... The reason why i heard about you was last year five million that you raised.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: And I covered and said, oh it's such an interesting company we should maybe think about... So your obviously getting funding right?
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: In terms of people who are....I have here twenty CryoPreserve patients.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: by now
• 18:40
  Speaker 0: its like thirty something but yes it is not hundreds yet.
• 18:44
  Speaker 0: so more than a thousand Right?
• 18:47
  Speaker 0: Each cryo preservation is two hundred thousand euros.
• 18:49
  Speaker 0: So that's, you know a bit north of two hundred million in contract volume and then in actually cryopreservation.
• 18:56
  Speaker 0: yeah it's thirty something right now.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, so then what kind of guarantees do you have to these people?
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: Because you are a company and God forbid maybe it buss.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: And you don't get enough funding or whatever... You can convince people to sign up Whatever the reason.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: one guarantees are there to somebody who's going to be cryopters within your facilities organization.
• 19:19
  Speaker 0: Yeah So all people who are in long-term cryostasis with us.
• 19:23
  Speaker 0: they're legally not with the company anymore There with a non-profit foundation in Switzerland.
• 19:29
  Speaker 0: And there's like a foundation structure, but within asset management Foundation and a nonprofit foundation which I also started.
• 19:39
  Speaker 0: so i'm on the board of both of them.
• 19:41
  Speaker 0: So it's not
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: random
• 19:42
  Speaker 0: for European
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Biosdasis Foundation?
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah
• 19:44
  Speaker 0: one is the European Bio Stasis Foundation.
• 19:46
  Speaker 0: The other called is called the Patient Care Foundation.
• 19:50
  Speaker 0: These are custom designed foundations for the purpose of keeping people in cryostasis long term.
• 19:58
  Speaker 0: Legally, these or one of those, The Patient Care Foundation is the legal guardian over the people who are in cryo-stasis.
• 20:06
  Speaker 0: Nevertheless, cryo preservation is not a guarantee.
• 20:11
  Speaker 0: it's neither a guarantee from medical standpoint.
• 20:16
  Speaker 0: currently you cannot revive someone from cryo stasis right?
• 20:19
  Speaker 0: It's impossible to do that.
• 20:21
  Speaker 0: It relies on future technology, it is of course possible whatever.
• 20:26
  Speaker 0: if there are nuclear war in the future who knows then if the facility and Switzerland stays around?
• 20:34
  Speaker 0: If you think about cryo-preservation as a guarantee this kind of wrong approach should take it.
• 20:40
  Speaker 0: so I think better approach for thinking about depending your personal world view philosophy.
• 20:49
  Speaker 0: If I'm being cremated or buried, there is no coming back from that.
• 20:54
  Speaker 0: the chance to be revived and brought back form from cremation it's zero.
• 20:59
  Speaker 0: well at least as close as you can beat two zero right a theoretical zero Right?
• 21:05
  Speaker 0: At The very least cryoproservation gives You A better Chance!
• 21:10
  Speaker 0: And now It's an.
• 21:11
  Speaker 0: I Can't Tell You How High That Chances But i am Very Happy To Defend That Its Better.
• 21:19
  Speaker 0: you're the deck in your favor with research, with better governance.
• 21:23
  Speaker 0: With checks and balances like prudent long-term financial planning... ...with governance structures that are built to last for argument sake decades if not centuries.
• 21:38
  Speaker 0: so by and large it is stacking the deck into a favor but NOT a guarantee because again guaranteed, because of course I do not know how the world will look in twenty years and thirty years or fifty maybe one hundred years.
• 21:54
  Speaker 0: But that chance is better.
• 21:55
  Speaker 0: like basically it's a question you have a terminal disease right?
• 21:59
  Speaker 0: And someone comes to you says hey i had this new clinical trial which might give your chance.
• 22:05
  Speaker 0: now can say Do You Want To Be In The Placebo Group Or Do You Wanna Be In Intervention Group?
• 22:14
  Speaker 0: is on a plane and the plane is crashing.
• 22:19
  Speaker 0: It's definitely hitting the ground, someone comes to you says listen hey I have this very experimental parachute here has never been tried we don't know but do you want one?
• 22:32
  Speaker 0: And then i'm definitely taking it right.
• 22:36
  Speaker 0: so its more so again depending on personal world view.
• 22:40
  Speaker 0: if you wanna go for clear doom or take that chance I think, and then again i can't tell you how high the chances but it is better.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Okay okay!
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: And uh...you mentioned the price point there?
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: And i think that's an interesting topic conversation too because from what i saw so whole body preservation for members is two hundred thousand.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: just brain is seventy five in the non-members is a hundred.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: no two hundred thirty thousand and then one hundred fifteen thousand for brain for non-member.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: So that's an obvious wealth barrier, of course.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: You know and it's understandable It's a new technology its experimental technology.
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: Would you want to see if all the sudden?
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: It becomes a truly darn company like you're saying.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: would you want this kind of Expanded and that wealth gap kind of reduced?
• 23:31
  Speaker 0: Absolutely in fact is one of three golds off the company.
• 23:33
  Speaker 0: so We have we've three goals making cryopreservation better from equality standpoint Making more accessible and make it more affordable.
• 23:42
  Speaker 0: Luckily, all the costs of cryopreservation are... They scale down with a economy of scale tremendously.
• 23:50
  Speaker 0: The problem or why cryoproservation is currently so expensive it's because there're more super yachts in world than people signed up for cryopresentation.
• 24:01
  Speaker 0: So it is currently, if you want to be on the absolute forefront of the avant-garde or bleeding edge of technology then just get a cryo perdition contract.
• 24:11
  Speaker 0: And so very few people currently decide for cryostasis because its relatively new topic and not many know about that actually can't be done.
• 24:22
  Speaker 0: Nevertheless cost CAN go down once more.
• 24:26
  Speaker 0: people do to at least somewhere in the, you know, twenty five thousand range.
• 24:32
  Speaker 0: Initially we started out just doing whole body cryopreservation.
• 24:36
  Speaker 0: We added on brain cryoproservation even though we would always recommend whole-body... ...we add it on brain crying preservation because It is currently The only way how we can make it significantly more affordable without jeopardizing quality.
• 24:50
  Speaker 0: Nevertheless down the line my hope would be that we could offer this significantly More affordable.
• 24:56
  Speaker 0: and The three main costs that we have, which is equipment and cryoprotective agents long-term storage.
• 25:03
  Speaker 0: And personnel all of them goes down significantly once more.
• 25:07
  Speaker 0: people do it because currently I have medical teams doctors perfusionists and so on.
• 25:11
  Speaker 0: i have them standing around for like I don't know a hundred days A year in quotation marks.
• 25:15
  Speaker 0: they just keep up and train whatever right?
• 25:18
  Speaker 0: Because not many People Do It!
• 25:21
  Speaker 0: Of course if you can split the cost over More People cost would go down, same for liquid nitrogen consumption.
• 25:27
  Speaker 0: It's basically a factor of how much surface area do you have to volume?
• 25:31
  Speaker 0: And if you increase the location where these low temperature storage is being done and the consumption goes down by surface area but volume then allows it to store much more and you'll have less consumption.
• 25:47
  Speaker 0: so long term we can offer this as much affordable currently still relatively expensive.
• 25:53
  Speaker 0: Nevertheless, it's also important for me to say that people don't pay.
• 25:57
  Speaker 0: usually at least they don't Pay the money out of pocket.
• 26:01
  Speaker 0: We work with large life insurance providers So in almost all cases People take our life insurance and then we are the beneficiary of their life insurance policy Right?
• 26:12
  Speaker 0: And so you can you can fund cryopreservation in that way.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Okay What see what's the benefit of only crowd preserving your brain?
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Is that also for some future technology where you could input a brain into robot or humanoid, what's the idea there?
• 26:32
  Speaker 0: Pretty much.
• 26:33
  Speaker 0: Again I try to never make any definitive statements about the far future because like What do i know right Like whats gonna be possible in fifties?
• 26:42
  Speaker 0: but The fundamental logic here is as much as we currently understand everything That We value personality, identity consciousness.
• 26:53
  Speaker 0: Everything that makes me-me and make you-you is in our
• 26:57
  Speaker 0: brains.".
• 26:59
  Speaker 0: We ran a big study awhile ago where we asked like a lot of neuroscientists And the overwhelming majority is yes That's the case.
• 27:07
  Speaker 0: So...and Of course we kind of know this Like hearts can be transplanted Lungs Can Be Transplanted You can switch out A LOT OF THE BODY PORTS Where as The brain just conceptually You can't Switch it Out.
• 27:20
  Speaker 0: So, as long you have the brain for all intents and purposes.
• 27:23
  Speaker 0: You have the parts that are unique And now at least it is imaginable That in future will be able to three different organs and potentially rest of body.
• 27:34
  Speaker 0: Again I strongly would suggest whole-body.
• 27:38
  Speaker 0: The only reason why we do brain Is give people an option if they say I cannot afford a whole body The choice.
• 27:46
  Speaker 0: basically i don't do anything go cremation or burial or I do brain-only.
• 27:52
  Speaker 0: In that case, it makes a lot of sense to do brain only because at least conceptually we have ideas how our body could be three D printed right?
• 28:00
  Speaker 0: That's not going to be super soon but once you have enough time and i'm not seeing any fundamental reason why this should not be possible At some point.
• 28:11
  Speaker 0: And the trick with cryopreservation is Once your at these cryogenic temperatures Time doesn't matter anymore.
• 28:17
  Speaker 0: You can wait.
• 28:19
  Speaker 0: If it's ten years, fine.
• 28:20
  Speaker 0: If you need to wait fifty that is also okay if it takes two hundred.
• 28:23
  Speaker 0: no worms in theory can stay at temperature and cryogenic temperatures for thousands of years.
• 28:29
  Speaker 0: nothing happens.
• 28:31
  Speaker 0: so just waited out until future technology has caught up.
• 28:35
  Speaker 0: nevertheless we would always recommend whole body.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: Well, previously you mentioned that uh... You're involved in founding the European Ballastasis Foundation and all these initiatives within Europe.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: I know that i've previously read they used to be signed up with The American Offering which is at Alcor.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: yeah so why did you see the need for a european version if If you already felt there was an american one And it seemed interesting enough For you to initially be involved?
• 29:05
  Speaker 0: two main reasons for that.
• 29:06
  Speaker 0: So I mean, about just their customer right?
• 29:08
  Speaker 0: So it was not really super involved as a customer but nevertheless, cryopreservation is like an easy topic where you could make way more money somewhere else.
• 29:17
  Speaker 0: so there's this too many reasons.
• 29:23
  Speaker 0: one is cryo preservation from medical infrastructure standpoint needs to be done quickly.
• 29:30
  Speaker 0: if something would happen At some point, once I start all signed up with them.
• 29:36
  Speaker 0: Like how does this work?
• 29:39
  Speaker 0: And the answer is kind of like yeah don't worry about it.
• 29:43
  Speaker 0: and at some point i felt there's definitely something to worry about.
• 29:45
  Speaker 0: in fact they don't have medical teams right so There's no way for them being able to do that procedure quickly if needed.
• 29:53
  Speaker 0: That one reason.
• 29:56
  Speaker 0: by now Of course All the other cryopreservation organizations that are relevant in the world, they have been around for fifty plus years.
• 30:06
  Speaker 0: So this is not a new topic by any means and I think the best way to kind of think about it is.
• 30:13
  Speaker 0: you know taxis Have been around very long time before Uber came round And now technically could say well uber taxes You know same thing same value proposition.
• 30:25
  Speaker 0: what's the difference?
• 30:26
  Speaker 0: But then again i don't remember when used at taxi last I think a lot of people who are more app-based and whatever, there is significant difference in the experience.
• 30:40
  Speaker 0: And by now that's also significantly, at least on our case but not as a significant different than quality preservation.
• 30:47
  Speaker 0: so we do much better quality checks both top end on average show much better qualities then other organizations too.
• 31:00
  Speaker 0: So by now, I don't think like these legacy organizations you know.
• 31:07
  Speaker 0: Like to be fair i don't even really consider them a competitor anymore.
• 31:11
  Speaker 0: we grow twenty times first than they do.
• 31:15
  Speaker 0: They have a fifty head start but from a growth trajectory From quality standpoint it's not the same ballpark any more.
• 31:28
  Speaker 0: Again, we have significantly better quality.
• 31:31
  Speaker 0: We grow twenty times faster than they do and so on.
• 31:35
  Speaker 0: So I think my decision was mostly if personally it was more so accessibility of medical teams And quality of preservation.
• 31:45
  Speaker 0: why i felt like maybe there needs to be a new player in the field?
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: I Think you're right that You've done work.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: I thinking kind of making it serious again because, you know when I first came across the story it just seemed like Walt Disney atomic age thing where its absurd really.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: No i don't
• 32:06
  Speaker 0: think even Walt Disney is even cryo for this!
• 32:12
  Speaker 0: We had a blog post in our very beginning on our blog and this was most clicked web page of everything but secret, whatever under Disneyland or whatever.
• 32:24
  Speaker 0: But I think it's an urban legend.
• 32:26
  Speaker 0: but of course you're right.
• 32:27
  Speaker 0: like this cryopreservation was always a topic on the edge between science fiction and science.
• 32:34
  Speaker 0: Like we have now moved to... And also sometimes at least in the past contentiously discussed.
• 32:45
  Speaker 0: Now, you know since we've been around and some new organizations starting up it has been moved significantly more into.
• 32:54
  Speaker 0: This is an option that people can seriously consider And then make up their mind if this Is something they want to do?
• 32:59
  Speaker 0: Some people might say no.
• 33:00
  Speaker 0: This is not Something what but I wanna doing.
• 33:02
  Speaker 0: That's of course also totally fine.
• 33:04
  Speaker 0: But in other People might Say well Why why Not right?
• 33:09
  Speaker 0: this is not something You Do early.
• 33:10
  Speaker 0: you do It once all the Other medical Interventions Have Failed.
• 33:14
  Speaker 0: Right, no one needs to say tomorrow I want a big cryoplasm.
• 33:16
  Speaker 0: No you try everything else and then only once the doctor says we have tried everything your cancer is still incurable And in fact that people had their doctors have pronounced You like that?
• 33:26
  Speaker 0: Then we immediately take over right.
• 33:28
  Speaker 0: so uh...and again for lot of People even though two hundred K Is A good chunk Of money For a significant part of population if they really Want To do it They're able to fund It And then it only comes down if this is something you want to do.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Okay, well we're on the topic here of Europe and moving that forward within this continent.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: I had a quick look.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: obviously i can't really compare you to any other companies using these podcasts.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah,
• 34:00
  Speaker 0: I could say oh
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: well there's these other companies and how do you feel about the competition?
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: I can't really ask that here but what i can ask you.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: And I think it's important is that... Well for some background we tracked in terms of a kind of health optimization company which is I guess The Broad or Umbrella I Can Fit You In.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: We tracked-in this past year.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: we've seen around thirty four million euros come and go in terms Of funding For These kinds of initiatives.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: So does being one of these select few companies that do what you do, is it a plus for you?
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Or would like to see more companies enter the landscape and enter the broader European biostasis foundation.
• 34:41
  Speaker 0: Yeah no question.
• 34:43
  Speaker 0: so we don't have a competitor problem right?
• 34:46
  Speaker 0: in fact there's zero companies at.
• 34:48
  Speaker 0: We Are Aware Of all of Europe That Do What We Do Worldwide A Couple New Ones Starting Out.
• 34:57
  Speaker 0: But it's so.
• 34:59
  Speaker 0: our problem is not competition.
• 35:00
  Speaker 0: Our problems market education and you know, market penetration in all of that.
• 35:06
  Speaker 0: So I would have a strong preference for couple of organizations that start in the field, right?
• 35:12
  Speaker 0: That will help to build and make it more serious.
• 35:16
  Speaker 0: In fact we're supporting smaller companies like I usually don't do angel tickets but rather start companies which are sometimes on weekends at the site.
• 35:24
  Speaker 0: But yeah you know...I'd definitely love having more companies You know, and from a... So since we're of course if you take longevity because it's that health optimization field right?
• 35:44
  Speaker 0: Longevity has become very broad spectrum.
• 35:47
  Speaker 0: From supplements to skin lotions towards biotech then somewhere on the other side of the spectrum.
• 35:54
  Speaker 0: That is where we are.
• 35:58
  Speaker 0: so usually when we meet investors The conversation either I'm in or out This is not like yeah, you know but who's the competition and whatever right?
• 36:07
  Speaker 0: It's it's more almost a binary decision.
• 36:10
  Speaker 0: This is something I want to do.
• 36:11
  Speaker 0: this Is something I feel like as cool.
• 36:14
  Speaker 0: um i might even wanna Do it myself right or i'm definitely gonna do it myself uh.
• 36:18
  Speaker 0: And then i mean Um unfortunately Yeah our competitor slide is Not if not an extensive slide into its There isn't unfortunate there isn't much.
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: So then is there kind of niche areas that maybe you'd like to see more explored within cryopreservation?
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, because the pets thing stood out for me.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: That was interesting as I saw.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: yet and again these might be old numbers but it's ten pets, cryo-preserved right!
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: And we've mentioned how... You begin with animals and move them into humans so they're maybe a niche area in there.
• 36:50
  Speaker 0: We started sorry.. The other way around.
• 36:51
  Speaker 0: We start at humans and moved to pets.
• 36:53
  Speaker 0: There is one organization where there are meaningful startups in US pet cryopreservation, pure pet cryo-preservation.
• 37:01
  Speaker 0: But good friends of us so we'll collaborate with them on a variety of topics.
• 37:08
  Speaker 0: So you could... There's there is a good amount of angles that you can take in cryoproservation.
• 37:14
  Speaker 0: You can take the organ biobanking angle right make organs available or research how to cryo preserve organs.
• 37:25
  Speaker 0: It's of course a bit different biotech play but it might be very interesting.
• 37:31
  Speaker 0: You can take the pet angle, go for pets and there are people who after having lived with their pet for ten or fifteen years consider that pet part of family so they may consider cryopreservation.
• 37:45
  Speaker 0: The human cryoproservation angle is probably the most difficult one at least for me, it's also the most exciting one.
• 37:53
  Speaker 0: You can take an angle that comes from cells like just doing cell cryopreservation all of which we will only do if our research teams find something interesting.
• 38:04
  Speaker 0: We would always try to spin them out as a separate company.
• 38:08
  Speaker 0: So we're hardcore mission-aligned moonshot mission driven organization and not pivot.
• 38:17
  Speaker 0: so tell us about investors.
• 38:18
  Speaker 0: Listen!
• 38:20
  Speaker 0: Like if I'm sitting around here in a few years with like two people on the team because no one wants to invest into this organization for whatever reason, cause now it's not another cool topic anymore.
• 38:30
  Speaker 0: So be it!
• 38:30
  Speaker 0: I sit around with those two people and wait out until we can raise more money over them.
• 38:35
  Speaker 0: right so but If you find something interesting that is kind of adjacent You would spin about all these fields?
• 38:45
  Speaker 0: Okay.
• 38:46
  Speaker 0: I
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: have to ask then, if you were faced with a terminal illness would you sign up for what your offering here?
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Would that be something interesting?
• 38:56
  Speaker 0: Not without second thought like it's not even the question from me.
• 39:00
  Speaker 0: Like my world view in mine If i die right...I do not have any evidence To believe That there is anything but nothing Right and again do enjoy living much more than I would enjoy being dead.
• 39:23
  Speaker 0: And i definitely want to see tomorrow, and I definitely wanna see in ten years until maybe also a hundred years right?
• 39:28
  Speaker 0: At least...I always have the optionality of saying that you'd like another day!
• 39:32
  Speaker 0: If I'm diagnosed with terminal condition it is curable inevitably will lead my death.
• 39:43
  Speaker 0: It's a binary choice.
• 39:44
  Speaker 0: Do You Want To Be Cremated Or Buried or Do You Wanna Be Cryer Preserved?
• 39:47
  Speaker 0: you need to, unfortunately.
• 39:50
  Speaker 0: You need to choose one of those two things and my choice is it's a hundred percent clear.
• 39:55
  Speaker 0: I will always get cryo preservation before i go for cremation right?
• 40:01
  Speaker 0: And yeah...I mean otherwise to be fair I wouldn't run this organization again.
• 40:05
  Speaker 0: there would be more money to be made somewhere else that would be easier somewhere else so on.
• 40:09
  Speaker 0: So I think there's a good amount of intrinsic motivation required.
• 40:13
  Speaker 0: if you want do If you want to do startups in the first place, but then especially if you wanna do a startup that is another company.
• 40:20
  Speaker 0: That's one of these more moonshotty fields.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Okay well we're approaching final question here and I'll let you go with it too best.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: We've talked so much about being on fringe of every kind, you know medical science and how what?
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: You want to work towards pushing that more to the center And getting more people to know about it get more people To sign up in your opinion.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: What needs to happen on that level?
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: is It just more people knowing about it or does there need to be certain Medical milestones I need to reach for this to be seriously taken as a serious option?
• 41:03
  Speaker 0: Yeah so By the way, everything that's interesting is slightly on the end of the spectrum.
• 41:09
  Speaker 0: The moonshots.
• 41:10
  Speaker 0: I would not want to run normal companies anymore right?
• 41:13
  Speaker 0: I wanna do stuff that is pushing boundaries in a positive sense and the moon shots are stuff that really what have high impact.
• 41:23
  Speaker 0: so it's a combination.
• 41:25
  Speaker 0: So get two.
• 41:27
  Speaker 0: let say hundred thousand or so people signed up.
• 41:31
  Speaker 0: If a hundred thousand people pay you two hundred thousand euros, it's already good business at that point and fifty bucks per month as the subscription fee in addition.
• 41:40
  Speaker 0: So to get there is probably only figuring out how to communicate this topic where more people say I want do this now because when we ask people like large studies of course they always need to be taken with grain of salt but around twenty percent in Europe and the US says this is my end of life choice.
• 42:02
  Speaker 0: Given the options, I'd rather do it than the
• 42:04
  Speaker 0: alternatives.".
• 42:06
  Speaker 0: Of course, twenty percent population... It's way above a hundred K people that i just mentioned!
• 42:12
  Speaker 0: So to go significantly higher- And so why we also do research?
• 42:18
  Speaker 0: If you can show us how it works with mice or more data probably helps even though Unfortunately, I think usually most people don't make decisions that much on what does the scientific literature say?
• 42:33
  Speaker 0: What paper has been published.
• 42:35
  Speaker 0: So i think it's more communication than... It kind of like a bit off everything once it becomes self-fulfilling or flywheel thing.
• 42:43
  Speaker 0: Once there is more data More people talk about it.
• 42:47
  Speaker 0: There are key opinion leaders from research and medicine involved in it.
• 42:53
  Speaker 0: I think Paris Hilton said that she definitely wants to sign up for cryopreservation, right?
• 42:58
  Speaker 0: We'll have
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: her on next then.
• 43:00
  Speaker 0: Please do it and let me know what he says!
• 43:03
  Speaker 0: No like once more of that group of people than you know celebrities and stars sign-up And then they kind of get this flywheel where more people say listen Why
• 43:14
  Speaker 0: not?!
• 43:14
  Speaker 0: Like What's the downside?
• 43:16
  Speaker 0: The downside is if we pay two hundred thousand euros.
• 43:17
  Speaker 0: but apart from that If doesn't work nothing You don't have any disadvantage.
• 43:24
  Speaker 0: You would like to see the future.
• 43:25
  Speaker 0: then you definitely have a big advantage.
• 43:29
  Speaker 0: In my mind it's every day of week.
• 43:32
  Speaker 0: I'd rather do cryopreservation than cremation.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you very much Emil.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure to have you on.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: I could keep chatting.
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: II want I wanted To give my video editor and I don't wanna make his day bad by turning into two-hour.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: But but do I am quite enjoying the conversation there.
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: so much of chat about And uh i'm sure we're gonna be seeing more view.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: You know if you've your raising funding?
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: He did so good last year.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: We'll be looking forward to any new advancements from
• 44:02
  Speaker 0: me.
• 44:02
  Speaker 0: awesome Thank you so much.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's been a pleasure chatting.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Talk soon!
• 44:07
  Speaker 0: Thank you.