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Is the Party Over? The Decline of Northwest Wine & Craft Beer · The PNW Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you are a fan of craft beer, like I have been in the past and still will be from time to time.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you're like me, but I've become a lot more selective.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: There are plenty breweries that I really enjoyed that I will not touch anymore because the quality has gone down so much.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: They don't even taste like they used to.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me understand why there's people out there that'd be like, I had an IPA out in Wisconsin and I almost barfed after one drink.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's because you're getting the big company, the big brewery IPA.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that good.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: They have to spend a little bit more time crafting something special to make it taste the way that I know an IPA to taste, or I know an amber to taste, and you saw that happen a lot, and a lot of these companies have just dipped so much in quality that people just aren't fans anymore.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome in to the PW podcast.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: Marcus and Eugene.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here in Twalleton, just outside of Portland, at the Stafford Hills Club, where I record all of these episodes, and just left the gym over there myself.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: It is a fully remodeled gym over there, Marcus, where they've got all the amenities, and it's not a place where you got a bunch of meat chucks judging you.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: So even if you're at the beginning of your workout journey in the middle, or you just feel like you've already achieved what you need to do, you're left alone to do what you need, and people actually hold doors for you, they smile.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's the kind of place where they actually want you to be there.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas in some gyms, they really want you to get a membership, but then they'd prefer you just stay home and forget about it and continue to pay your dues, but not at Stafford Hills.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: The idea is if you stay happy and healthy, you'll be here for a long time.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: StaffordHills.com.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Tell them Drew sent you for half off your initiation.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: You will not be disappointed.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Marcus, a conversation to jump off on today is reports are out that there is a serious struggle going on in the alcohol industry here in the state of Oregon.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you know, everybody knows that we're kind of like the craft beer place.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of other places outside of the Pacific Northwest, not just in Oregon, kind of copied the whole craft beer operation.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: And business was booming for a long time.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but wine is also a massive thing that we do here with you know, the area out in like Newburgh, Dundee has incredible soil to grow grapes to make amazing wine, Pinot Noir and other varieties.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but that is all in a little bit of a shakeup right now.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oregon's wine grape production fell 23% in 2025.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if you don't think that's a big number, almost one in four or you know, 25, almost 25% is gone.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's a major shakeup.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: Also, wine case sales declined by approximately 16% to 4.9 million cases last year.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think it is, Marcus?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Is it that young people aren't drinking as much wine?
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is it that everything is more expensive or a combination?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that's both of those factors at play, Drew.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I think back to the days when I turned, you know, 21 and those those early 20s to mid-20s days where you're getting out of college, you don't have any money at all, and you're just hoping to be able to afford a six-pack that you can go home and and drink while you watch the football game.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it used to run me, and I know this is gonna date me, but listen, I'll date ever I'll date myself for everybody.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm 42 years old, okay?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we're talking ish 20 years ago.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: We were looking at maybe five to seven bucks for a six-pack of Coors Light or Keystone Light or something like that.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was under that$10 threshold.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: It cost me$15 the other day for a six-pack of white claw at the gas station, Drew.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: I that is such a monumental shift.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: I never would have been the six-pack of beer at home for the football game guy in my 20s if that's how much beer was when I was 20.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a big part of it.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I also really think, Drew, that a lot of people flew way too close to the sun during COVID.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not gonna sit here and act act like I'm better than anybody because I definitely got caught up in that.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was real easy uh when you're sitting at home for months on end, not having to actually go into a job, working from home, sitting there in your robe, and nothing's going on at three o'clock.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Let's crack a beer, man.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Let's have a steak, like let's enjoy this a little bit.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: This might never happen again.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of people got wrapped up in that, probably developed a little bit of a dependency.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: And here, six years down the road, we're seeing the effects of that, as well as a younger generation, like you mentioned, that just isn't as into the alcohol part of the party culture.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's certain aspects of that that scare me a little bit because I think that uh with the advent of fentanyl and how often it's just kind of spilled over into different party drugs and somebody randomly overdoses because they were dosed with something they didn't know of.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: That stuff's happening a lot these days.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: And that's never going to happen uh, you know, when you when you pull a beer out of your own fridge and crack it.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's certain things that may develop here further on down the line, but I can't say I'm surprised.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: And a nice little fact for you just probably 20 miles north of my house is the crow flies here in Lane County.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: It might actually be up into Lynn County, I'm not sure, maybe Benton.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: But there is a hill that is uh owned by, I think it's King Estate, but it might be one of their subsidiaries.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: That there's only two hills that get the type of sunlight and the amount of sunlight that that hillside gets in the world, and the other one is in France, where you know they do wine pretty well.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a scary thing thing for a place like Oregon because we do have the uh the ecosystem to really grow some hot grapes here and and also grow a lot of hops, too, Drew, here along the I-5 corridor.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's hop farms all over the place.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: So um not liking what this is saying about the overall economy for Oregon.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be a hit and things aren't good as we stand right now.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I think there are a couple of things at play.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, first of all, you listen to some of these stats.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oregon ended last year with 33 fewer wineries.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: So the mom and pops, the people who took a leap of faith and put everything into this are going belly up.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And in a in a couple of minutes, we'll get into the craft brewing situation because it's really not all that different.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's just less people are drinking wine, and wine is something that's a little bit more of an expensive taste.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And for those of us who could go to a Trader Joe's or whatever and get a cheaper bottle of wine, you could kind of I for lack of a better term, you could play house and you you're drinking decent wine.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: But now that those prices are going up across the board, it's tough.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and you mentioned the white claw, that entire aisle has become out of control.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: Unless you're drinking Bush Light, which is still three times the price it was when I was in college, for four dollars when I was in college, the Alder Street Market, which no longer exists, uh, when Peace Health took it away right there at 11th and Alder by campus in Eugene,$4, six pack of tall cans, bush light.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: I still remember Sue.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: She owned the place, and you'd go in there and she'd say, Ha, honey, and she'd sell you some bush light.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure she always checked the ID, but she would get you dialed in for four bucks because that's what I had.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: But now the prices are crazy.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: You go down the aisle at a safe way, let's say, and if something isn't red tag, the red tag means it's like killer deal, we're trying to liquidate, and you can sometimes get a deal there.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Six pack of I used to drink hard cider.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness, it's like$14 or$15 for six hard ciders.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: You you would never dream of paying that unless you were in a bar or a restaurant in your life.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm saying.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's bar and restaurant prices.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like we're and and so what does that mean that it's gone up to at the bar or the restaurant?
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's gonna cost me 50 bucks to buy six of them at the restaurant or the bar at this point in time.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, thank God for dollar beers at Taylor's on Wednesdays when we were young, Drew, because uh I'd be broke right now if it wasn't for those kind of deals.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: And dollar wells on Tuesdays.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that kept me in it.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think you're seeing a cultural shift here.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the other thing that's uh is an interesting part of this is this during this exact same time, cannabis has become legal in so many more states for recreational use, and it's become legal for medical use in a lot of states that haven't quite got that far yet.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: But you remember and I remember, all you had to do was go in and be like, Doc, my back is really killing me, and I'll tell you what else is a nice fat blunt.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: And he'd write you a card.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't have to have like a big excuse.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that in the medical states and also the recreational states, you're going to see people pull back from alcohol because maybe for them the cannabis is less addictive, maybe it's uh uh not as bad on your health, maybe uh you've just found that you enjoy the way it makes you feel more.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: But that's another thing, and uh it's a big competitor right now, and drinks, like cannabis drinks, are starting to really kind of come on the market.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I tried one over the weekend, Drew.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was two milligrams of THC and 10 milligrams of CBD, and it was probably the closest thing that I've had as a as a feeling to just a beer or two, and it was really nice, you know.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: But given that's probably an eight dollar can and I ain't paying those hyper prices for that buzz.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's beyond just the pot.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean that's that's obviously a big part of it now that you can walk into a store just like you would a liquor store and you can buy that.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and I do, and I've always been on the record with this that that you know alcohol hurts more people than pot does.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not for everyone, but it's the selection for young people has changed so much.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's I think it's twofold.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, a lot along the lines of what you're talking about, um, but it's not just pot, it's kava drinks.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, it's um it and that's become a huge thing.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's synthetic and actual psychedelic mushrooms have become a big thing where people are ordering them directly to their house.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: They can eat one of these gummies, have no hangover, and go about their day the next day without an apology to her.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think that is something that young people see as rather than spending a bunch of money at the grocery store, they can buy something else that's an alternative, still have a good time.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: They can even hold a drink, just like your CBD THC drink, where they don't feel left out, they're still having a good time.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: We come from a different time where it was like, okay, well, you drink your beers until you're buzzed, and then everybody's everyone's got that same buzz.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so it was just the norm.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's also comes down to well, I guess it's gonna be three things.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: The second one is price, price point is crazy.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: I cannot afford to go to a bar and like buy people drinks.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like it used to be like, hey, get a shot for these three guys.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, what now that that's aggressive?
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Get a shot for these three guys uh and put it on his tap.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: In the bars, I'm surprised bars can stay open and and they're shuddering like crazy, too.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: But the third thing is the screen time that that people, the younger generation, are so obsessed with their phone and staring at the idiot box than actually going out and meeting somebody in public.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, back in the day you didn't have 10 dating apps and hookup sites and all these different variations where you could basically stay home.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And they're not even, and here's the wild part, Marcus, they're not even like itching to go like hook up with each other.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Normally, like a 20-something is like they're like chomping at the bit to find somebody of the opposite sex to hang out with, and now we're so desensitized, you'd rather just kind of doom scroll than to go out and make yourself broke because other than your internet plan and the price of your iPhone, it it's free to do scroll.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's very expensive to go to the bar.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I realize when I talk about the the dollar beers on Wednesdays and the dollar wells on Tuesdays, it makes me sound like just a raging alcoholic from the age of 21 on.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think an important caveat is something you just mentioned there.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Is drinking wasn't the activity.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: We were going to the salt mines to find a woman.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we were at the bar.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: You would and and you saw there it ran every gamut.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: You had what the one guy that would stand next to the door, and every woman that walked in, what's up, baby?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: What's up, girl?
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, what's up, baby?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: And he would just shoot his shot at every single one that came in in hopes that sooner or later it was going to be a fishing with dynamite moment and he was gonna catch one.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the point.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: You you drank while you did the activity of socializing because it was, as we've called it for years, a social lubricant.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think that that chatting with people online that is sort of already inherently there because you notice people will say almost anything online.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: When they're not right there in person with you, they get a lot more bold, they get a lot more brave.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe if they're meeting their friends online and that's their social environment, they don't need the social lubricant that people need when they're standing face to face to loosen them up a little bit and make them less anxious.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that the doom scrolling makes you any less anxious.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that staring at a screen all day makes you less anxious, but I do understand why maybe uh the the drinking overall kind of goes down across the society because listen, if you're doom scrolling and just sitting there pounding booze by yourself, then I think almost everybody in the room would say uh you might have a problem.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, nobody wants that stigma, so they're not doing it or they're not telling their friends about it.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really interesting, man.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: The world is changing and it's changing in front of my eyes, and I'm old now and I don't like it, and it's something that I haven't learned to cope with yet, uh, but I'm working on it.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's concerning for wine country.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the price of the dirt out there has skyrocketed rocketed in the last couple of years, and I wonder what's gonna happen.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Has it hit a ceiling and is it gonna go down?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Because we've got a grape surplus here now.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Exports to Canada, Canada have plummeted because their young people are doing the same thing.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: There's just so many options to chase a buzz that isn't alcohol.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, alcohol all the time has major effects on your health and negative implications from top to bottom.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a hard nut to crack because you know, we used it for social lubricant to, you know, qu without a better term, to hook up with the opposite sex.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: But now it's different because even if you and say you and a girl, you're in your 20s or sitting on a couch, you know what used to lead to hooking up?
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: Boredom.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Boredom.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: The TV was on, but it was just, I I mean, I even remember when I first started dating my wife.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like you'd sit there and you'd be like, Well, I hope, you know, like a creeping hand works here, or you know, that they'll just want to do this.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now, even though even when the person loves you and is like, you know, committed to you and said for you're my forever, you're both on your phones.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: We're not that much better.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're falling down the same well.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: We have some of the old habits still.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: We still like to do the things that we remember were awesome.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: But if you and if you don't make extra, extra, extra effort, you're likely going to get blocked on all of that stuff by a cell phone.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's different.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how we're how it's gonna change because we're we're doom scrolling more by the day.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you don't realize it in yourself until it kind of slaps you in the face.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and an example that happened to me just earlier this week, Drew, is Monday night.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I was on dinner duty, I made dinner.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Ashley was sitting there in her chair and she was working, you know, she she pretty much works around the clock.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: She gets uh requests that come in, emails that come in all day and night, and she's sitting there doing something on her phone.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: I can't see what it is.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it was doom scrolling, but I said, Hey, babe, dinner's ready.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it was just silence.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, come fix your plate, you know, a little bit more.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then the third time I'm like, it's gonna be cold.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, I'm sorry.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: And she put down her and she came and she got and then, you know, just the next night, Drew, she was on dinner duty, and I'm sitting there in the easy chair, and I was doom scrolling, just fantasy football all day.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And she, sure enough, three different times she had to tell me to come fix my plate for dinner, and I would sat back and realized, like, I had no business being mad at her last night if I'm going to do the same dumb shit tonight.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing how you don't really have that self-awareness just built in because this is all new.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we're evolving as we speak, and I just don't think the human race is quite there yet because I was mad less than 24 hours earlier, and then I went and did the exact same thing.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's yeah, that's just that's bonkers behavior.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: And it's unintentional.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's the scary part, is it's like, oh, well, these are our behaviors.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: We're like, well, I don't want to be like that.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we are, because they've figured out a way to basically brainwash us into wanting one more video.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Just get, oh, well, and and the attention span is so short all of a sudden.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I I understand how people get couch locked and how you know they're as entertained there as they would be at the at the bar.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if I go into a campus bar at the University of Oregon that I used to know so well, if I walked into Renny's tomorrow and it's it's one of the discount drink nights, how many people are A, there and B staring at their phone rather than socializing or meeting someone new or or something along those lines?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: It used to be circle tables of conversation at the bar, and that's what made it kind of cool.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now, Rennie's a little more sophisticated than Taylor's, which was more like uh uh, but it still had the same basic premise.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: But now I just don't know.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: I I fear for those friends of ours who we have who own bars and have seen great success over time, whether that's going to fade away, or is is this a trend?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is this gonna be something that kind of flows up and down where it's like, well, we miss socializing.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: We're uh we're bored of the cell phone and we're gonna go back to it.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you said we're evolving, I think we're devolving into just a lump.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the world is definitely so much smaller than it used to be.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: We're all very interconnected now, and that kind of kills the need to get out and socialize, right?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: I've talked to my buddies, I've talked to my friends, even my buddies over in New York, talk to him a few times a week.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: Don't ever get to see him, but feel like we're still really well acquainted, and that's part of the world shrinking because of the advent of technology.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, it scares me, Drew, because I was just thinking about it.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: You start talking about Renny's again.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: I start thinking about cheesy bacon fries and a pitcher of light beer.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if I went down there today and ordered a pitcher of light beer and my plate of cheesy bacon fries, when I sat down and waited for that stuff to get delivered to me, what do you think I'm gonna do?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Pull my phone out of my pocket and occupy myself while I wait.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: We used to have to stare at the wall or play some pool or throw some darts or do anything other than scroll on the phone because back then we had snake and T9 texting, and that both of those things took too long.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's it's just uh and devolving probably is the word for it, devolving socially for sure, or or turning into something different.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I was back to the wine thing for a second.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think that it really is in trouble.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: A buddy of mine works for a wine distributor, and that's the a number one conversation is the decline in wine sales.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: And sadly for us, it's not just wine, and one of the other things we're known for in the Northwest, we're known for what good wine, food, and craft beer.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna take a quick break, and when we come back, the craft beer industry might even be more on the ropes than wine.
• 21:48
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• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we talked about wine and its decline.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: I feel bad for CJ McCullum, who just bought, he's just opened a massive winery out there in wine country, the X Trailblazer.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, wine isn't gonna go away entirely.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Going wine tasting is incredibly fun when you and a group of buddies say get in a limo and go place to place.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: I will say the last time I went, I had to apologize to everyone afterwards because I don't remember much of it, but they let me off.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but wine is on the decline.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: But craft beer might be worse.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: The production has declined nationally.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: A big name that also is down where you are in Eugene, Marcus, and up here, Oakshire Brewing has gone out of business altogether.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And with breweries facing the rising costs and changing consumer preferences, like we're talking about, they're being forced to pivot.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my little brother, he worked at Deschutes Brewery for many years, and some of the different products that they have kind of worked their way into NA beers, shandies that have less alcohol or just non-alcoholic non-beers have been an attempt to pivot and to survive.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: And Deschutes is one of the big ones.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that's one that really has staying power in the market.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: But if we're losing all of those places, do you think this is just the beginning of the end of the craft beer era?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do really think so, Drew.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll tell you why I think that that is the case.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's because it it went away from being craft brew anymore.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: It became so popular in these places like Deschutes and Ten Barrel and some of the other big ones that have come right here out of our home state of Oregon, they got so big that the guys that made that beer company all bought yachts and sold out and they were done with it.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: And the people that took over had a mind for the bottom line and not for the product anymore.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are a fan of craft beer, like I have been in the past and still will be from time to time, um, I don't know if you're like me, but I've become a lot more selective.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: There are plenty breweries that I really enjoyed that I will not touch anymore because the quality has gone down so much.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: They don't even taste like they used to.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me understand why there's people out there that be like, I had an IPA out in Wisconsin and I almost barfed after one drink.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: That's because you're getting the big, the like the big company, the big brewery IPA.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that good.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: They have to spend a little bit more time crafting something special to make it taste the way that I know an IPA to taste or I know an amber to taste.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And um you saw that happen a lot, and a lot of these companies have just dipped so much in quality that people just aren't fans anymore.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing is if we are dealing with a a society, Drew, that's drinking less, well, uh one can of IPA is like eating a pork chop when it comes to calories, and it's like eight, seven, eight, six percent, you know.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: Some of I mean there's a there's a an IPA I used to drink, Drew.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: I used to get like one of them for the weekend, and it was normally for like a home ducks football game, and I would drink it out at the tailgate.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: 10 point something percent of uh in in a beer.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you might as well be drinking wine at that point and and drinking 22 ounces of it.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's hard to do.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like you, I can't at 42, I can't just pound IPAs all day like I did when I was in my mid-20s.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And also I think people are trying to get a little bit healthier.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said, it's like a pork chop's worth of calories, man.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: You got to think about that stuff in your 40s.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: You're so right.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, a lot of the people that I know, including my own family members who used to rock IPAs.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if you're like, hey, do you want a beer?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I don't drink beer myself.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: I have a after a surgery that I had years ago, I can't have the hops.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: But I always keep some beers in the fridge for guests.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll be like, hey, do you want a beer?
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'll go, yeah, sure, what do you got?
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: I name the IPA, and almost every time they call it off like it's the wrong pitch.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like, oh, what else do you got in there?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then you say, like, oh, I got a pilsner, I'll take a pilsner.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so the craft brew in that.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now there are mom and pops who make a great pilsner too, but it just shows kind of the writing on the wall that people realize not only health-wise, hangover-wise, you're you're really eating that on the back end.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: I've always said this, uh, actually, not always.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: I drank, did a bunch of stupid drinking things, but over the course of the last handful of years, the lighter the alcohol in color, the less of a hangover you're going to get.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: And people try and fight back on this with me and be like, no, whiskey that sits in the barrel, it becomes, you know, it's actually not that bad compared to the quick distilling of vodka.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I disagree.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think that anything that is dark and heavy is going to attack you more.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: If I were to drink white claws during an event, like say a party or a Christmas, and that's it, you feel completely different than you do if you have IPAs and whiskey.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's a you wake up with an ice pick behind your eyeball.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's totally different.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: I just don't I don't understand exactly where they're gonna go with it to survive long term because now it's unhealthy, it makes you super full, it makes you super hungover, and craft beer is so expensive.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just insane.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, you look back, and I don't blame those who sold their companies.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, I don't either.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Especially now that it's declining, they sold it at the peak.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we know the guys who created Hop Valley, it's a and it's grew into a massive brand.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's all over the country, started right there in Eugene, Oregon, by some great guys.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: But when the dollar signs are just it's that number is so big, you have to take it.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, it's it's like, no, I'm doing it for the love of the game.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I believe Ninkazi, another beer down there in Eugene, still privately owned, but he's had to shuck off all kinds of offers.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, maybe he did let somebody in eventually, but Hop Valley is not owned by the same people I know who started it.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I know that that that worked out pretty well financially for them.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I don't, I when I said that earlier, it's more of a point that because the people that had the love of the game aren't involved anymore, that's why you see the quality dip, and and that's just unfortunate.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: But I would do the same thing, bro.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: I want a yacht.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I, you know, I want the private jets, I want all that stuff.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_00: So I can't fault them because that's why you start a business, right?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: You start a business to make money.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: You might have also started that business because you love making beer, but once you're uh a nationwide or a worldwide brand, you're not just making beer anymore.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: You are you are running an empire and there's other people making beer.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it stands to reason that maybe even if you do have that love for the game, you're gonna get out of it and take the, you know, 10, 12 figure check.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: I would do the same thing.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I got an idea here for him, Drew, because everybody in business, you have to be uh fluid.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be able to pivot.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: You things work in business until they don't.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not about what you do and how you whine about how it's not working anymore.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's about how you pivot onto something that does work.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: And there's one thing that I never thought I would see in myself and in many of my beer drinking buddies.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're all a lot like you, and I know you're you had the surgical reason, obviously, but a lot of us are off beers for the most part and on to seltzer because we can deal with it a little bit better.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: We can drink a few more of them at a football tailgate and not feel like we would rather go blind than wake up the next day.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, maybe some of these giant corporations should look at the seltzer market right now and realize it's 15 bucks for a six-pack of white claw.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you could bring that down a little bit and carve out a segment of the market where you're selling something on the little bit more on the budget side, and you're probably gonna get a lot of people because they don't want the heavy carbonation in the hops of beer anymore.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: But a seltzer is something that they can wrap their mind around, or a cider or something like that.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Some of these lower um, lower ABVs uh options that you were talking about.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Excuse me.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, just try, right?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: You better try something because your your deep reds and your your uh northwest IPAs, uh listen, man, I love uh again, I love a good hazy IPA.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: I've come to the point in my life now where I can have one hazy or else my stomach will be absolutely in knots and I will be like physically sick.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's just I think probably flew too close to the sun.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's probably part of it.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: But also, like your body's just not built to handle that stuff for 20 plus years, especially if you're doing it with any kind of volume.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, pivot, try something else.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: Get us some more cheap seltzer on the lot or on the uh on the lane.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: I would definitely try it out.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've I picked up some the other day called like happy dad seltzer, and it wasn't great, but it was a couple bucks cheaper, and that felt good enough for me to walk home with it.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, food for thought there for some of these guys that are struggling right now.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that struggle in this industry is a bit different than others, but I'd like to see some more options and I'd like to see prices come down, Drew, if I'm all if I'm at all honest with you.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I feel like white claw has survived the stigma.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I say white claw, I mean all hard seltzer.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: It used to be like you're a wuss for drinking it.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: And yep, I used to pride myself on laughing at that.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean, because all you really have to do is point to the can, and almost all hard seltzers are right around five percent, which is still a pretty decent amount of alcohol in a drink.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a hard water, but that's exactly what it is.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard water, like so, where could that where could that big price come from that it's so expensive?
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and I feel like White Claw and Truly have just had an easy ride here because they really haven't, you know.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: You look at the beer industry, you can go, you know, and Bush or Budweiser or Coors or Molson, Foster's, you can just go on and on and on about the options.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's still 75% of the beer aisle, but where is, like you said, that budget version?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: Now, for me, I prefer the taste of the Kirkland ones.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm a Costco guy, Kirkland, Washington, but they taste better.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And the price point for a case is$22 for a case, not for that six-pack that cost you$15 or 16.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: A convenience store, like four-pack of white claws, is obnoxious.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's so bad.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's completely unfair.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, if if they're gonna try and cancel their own industry, keep the prices where they are because it's what's turning away the young people.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we have a whole generation who have already basically been told that you're not gonna be able to afford a house if you're not somebody's boss.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Are you gonna have money to buy alcohol when you already have your habits changing?
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're seeing these declines in both craft beer and wine while the older generation is still drinking.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: But you bring in these young bloods and it's gonna be different.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh listen, I think that maybe the white claws and trulys of the world are going the wrong way because we've all seen the white claw surge, which is like 8% in its ulcer.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, no thanks, that's malt liquor.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: I can taste that.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: I drank enough Big Bear as a 21-year-old to know what malt liquor tastes like, and I I will say no thank you.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I'll tell you what I would try if they came out with a white claw light that was the same A B V as a Coors light, which is somewhere in that 3.5%, 3.6, 3.9%, I'd definitely buy that, Drew.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: And if it was a little bit cheaper, I'd buy a lot of it because I don't necessarily I'm not doing it for the ABV.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not doing it because I know a certain number of these is going to get me where I want to be.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: I like the taste.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: I like the fact that it doesn't make me feel like I've eaten seven pork chops today.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I like the fact that I can largely, if I'm responsible, wake up in the morning and function as an adult.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe try something like that.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, would you go, would you try a white claw light or a Kirkland light?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_01: For sure.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't mind the 5%.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot better than these 8%, the surge, or you know, truly doesn't even hide it.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: They call it truly unruly.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I I learned firsthand, I didn't buy it, but it was supplied to me as we went to a duck game.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: And here's the problem unless you have a drinking issue where you have to be so hammered or your body doesn't do anything unless X amount of alcohol enters it, it is not social lubricant, it's a social disaster.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you drink 8% instead of 5%, it doesn't sound like a lot more, but you go downhill quickly, you lose your sense of you on accident.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember being at the tailgate and I went and I ordered water, and it's like, I'm gonna need some water.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: They're like, but we just got going here.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I know these it's unruly.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's nothing normal about this.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I like in a group setting is something to where you know everyone feels more comfortable with something in their hand.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's why my friends and your friends who don't drink, they have an NA, they at least maybe they've got a koozie over a sparkling water, just so they have something to hold.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: Half of it's that for me.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, your talking awkward moment comes up, you don't know what to say.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Sip, sip.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not just me.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's most people.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't need to go into this.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're not buying mad dogs here.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Don't treat my social experience like mad dog 2020.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, we always used to joke in college if you drink mad dog, somebody's getting naked or someone's getting hit.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have two options.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, the naked guy might hit someone.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: These all th all these things could happen.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know, but something will happen for sure.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: But something does need to give because craft beer on the ropes.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I don't know if it's gonna turn around.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_01: The younger generation isn't feeling alcohol the way that they used to.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: And will bars be allowed to have these alternative drinks?
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Will the government come in to regulate them more?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_01: Because right now it's the Wild West online, whereas someone can order these kava drinks, or they can order these gummies that just show up to their house with synthetic versions of the drug or or whatever or the plant that is not regulated at this point.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: But without regulation, it's it's run rampant.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: But will bars survive by offering those types of things instead of alcohol?
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think there's a chance that one day they're gonna look at us and think that we're dinosaurs that we ever drank this stuff in the first place?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm sure of it.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure of it.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a big part of the industry that has to catch up first.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: And getting these synthetics out of it is one thing.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, I've tried kava.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Drew, the first time I ever, or the only time I ever tried kava was at a music festival in a farm field out of a five-gallon bucket from a dude that I would not have taken anything else from.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: If he didn't tell, if I didn't watch him make that from like a plant root and pour it into an old dirty bucket, no way I ever would have tried it.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: But it it made my lips numb and it kind of made my tongue numb, and that was it, and it was largely not enjoyable.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you make that an enjoyable experience, you clean up the process a little bit.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing we do know about regulation, Drew, is they think that people are going to lose their shit collectively all the time.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's why you can't smoke a joint out in front of a bar, even in a place where it's legal.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: They just won't let you do it because it's a lot like the places, uh, the states that have strip clubs that if they serve alcohol, the girls have to leave their bottoms on.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: These things aren't mutually exclusive.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh they're not ubiquitous among each other, where it's like if she takes her pants off and I've had a shot of whiskey, I can't control myself.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a wild animal.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, give us give us a little bit of slack.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_00: We are all adults here.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: We're supposed to know how to handle ourselves.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: I hope we see the industry catch up and maybe bars are more of an all-inclusive social environment, Drew, rather than just come here and drink alcohol.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and one other thing that I'll say about it before we got to go is, you know, think about liquor store versus dispensary.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: This is uh this is something that blows my mind.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the other day I it came to front of mine because I was going to the gas station, which is next door to a dispensary, and I could hear kids crying in a car.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I kind of walked by it and I realized that you know, two kids were in the backseat of this car and the mom was in the dispensary, which seems like bad parenting for sure.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: But look at the contrast here.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because alcohol is grandfathered in, if I go to buy alcohol, say I want to handle a T DOS, I can walk in with my 11-year-old, I can walk in with a nine-year-old, I can walk in with a three-year-old.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: As long as they're with a parent, they can come with you.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_01: No minor ever is allowed into a pot shop.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if you are a parent, if you are a single parent where your kids aren't in school yet or whatever, that mom who went in there, even though we just immediately judged her, they haven't given her a lane to choose an alternative.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because if she brings her kid in, you're 86.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: So if she doesn't want to drink and she feels like she's a better mom if she has a little pot rather than nine drinks, she doesn't even have access to that building because of the way we've set up the rules.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's messed up.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and what are her kids gonna do if they go in there?
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna go, it stinks in here, mom, and they're just gonna want to leave.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: I promise you.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: I've worked in one of those places for a long time.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're right, and and that's the part of the stigma, is like, and and the glacial pace that we move at when it comes to legislation in this country, Drew.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the people making these laws are making them right now, today, for people 20 years from now, and they can't actually see what it's gonna be like.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: They never will.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're always going to be behind the eight ball with that.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, I would just like to see it speed up a little bit.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think we've proven in the state of Oregon, Washington, California, people aren't gonna lose their mind if you give them a little weed.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get let's get with the times here a little bit.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: They definitely didn't run into a whole bunch more crime.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's like gangs are running rampant now.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: None of that stuff.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it's price, it's the way we've changed socially, it's the stigma.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but things are changing.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Craft, beer, and wine in trouble in the great northwest.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining me, Marcus.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: Doing my part to keep those industries alive, Drew.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, hopefully we'll see you next week.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: Go get 'em.