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How A TV Scandal Changed Her Life · Mork Unfiltered

• speaker-0: If it's scary, I should be doing it. speaker-1: I'm always fascinated by why people make the career decisions that they make. speaker-0: Yeah, not particularly concerned about fitting in all the time. That's good when you are in HR. speaker-1: So often you run into people where you can see that they're stuck. speaker-0: If you wanna be humble, become a leader. It will humble you mighty quick. speaker-1: You decided to go out and hire a career coach. speaker-0: You do not like respect and they do not like or respect you back. It's definitely time. speaker-1: Was there anything that you could have done differently? Was there any advice you could have given yourself? Welcome back to Mork Unfiltered Folks. What happens when the system you're working inside is designed to make you doubt yourself? Not because you're not good enough, but because the culture around you needs you to feel that way. Today's guest went from law school to corporate law and firms where she was the only African American in the room. Then she found herself in a situation where she was pushed out. Not once, but twice. Had every reason to walk away from corporate life entirely. Instead, she reinvented herself. Pivoted from law into people leadership, and today runs HR for one of the most complex cities in America, the city of Minneapolis, leading over 65 people, 24 unions, and navigating some of the toughest organizational crisis I think any leader has seen in the last 12 months. This is a conversation about resilience, reinvention, and self-awareness, and what it really looks like to be self-aware when the pressure is real. This is Mork Unfiltered, and this is Nikki Odom. Nikki, welcome to the show. It's great to have you. It's great to have you. Nikki, you know, w whenever I I I have the chance to to interview people on the show, I always found like a lot of the decisions that we make and a lot of the person that we become really kind of like starts, you know, when we were kids, right? It really starts with, you know, our parents, the environment that we grew up in, our education, the things that really shaped us. You grew up in Madison, Wisconsin, right? And your your father, if I remember correctly, was in the end speaker-0: Thank you. Thanks for having me. speaker-1: double A C P. What was it like to grow up in that household in that part of the country during those days? speaker-0: was it like? You know, obviously when you're growing up, you don't know anything better or you don't know anything worse. You don't, you know, it is what it is. It was interesting, right? Growing up in Madison, Wisconsin in the 80s, ⁓ as a black woman. ⁓ you know, my as you mentioned, but you know, my dad was a civil rights leader. He was very involved in the community. My my they were my parents met as educators. ⁓ so you have that background and baby boomers who had high expectations. They were southerners. So, you know, that that comes with a certain amount of that's a certain culture, right? That is that, you know, high expectations. You're supposed to look a certain way. You're not supposed to embarrass the family. ⁓ you know, those kinds of things. But it was difficult. I mean, I was one of very few. I think there were there was one girl, other African American girl in my class, and then there was a a boy several grades back. And so, you know, I was called the N word every year that I was in school in elementary school. And so yeah, it's it's tough, but I was very blessed to have parents who were incredibly supportive, a pro incredibly pro black. I always had, you know, black role models, black art, black dolls. And so they really did a good job of instilling a sense of pride ⁓ in me. And, you know, they really did, you know instill in me that I could do whatever. Yeah, I was lucky to be relatively smart. They encouraged those things in me. I was artistic. I started dancing ballet at two. So I was incredibly supported, but you know, you you have to be resilient in those environments. Like I mean, I guess maybe you don't have to, but you learn to be pretty resilient because, you know, you was ⁓ there were so many times when you felt alone or lonely that you felt like you didn't fit. And speaker-1: Yeah, sure. speaker-0: So you have to figure out a through that. There's only that's that's the only way you know, there's no way around it. You just figure out a way through it. And in thinking about it long term, right? ⁓ you know, my my parents were both very nonconformist. So, you know, those are some of the things that I take with me. I'm not particularly concerned about fitting in all the time. I'm not particularly concerned about being liked all the time. And sometimes that's that's good when you are in HR. speaker-1: Yeah, you know, that's it's it's a it's a great point, right? And I think we definitely live in a society today where it is very much characterized by being liked, right? And and you know, being approved and being recognized. You know, I think, you know, when you grow up in a situation like that, I don't think people most people don't have any context of of how challenging some of those times were, right? Where did what was your source of resilience? Like when I when I talk to people who've been through very tough times, I mean, every single person on this show has been through some incredibly difficult times. You know, our last guest. was the CHR of Toshiba, he literally was was scrounging for food and dumpsters as a kid. I and and and then, you know, has risen through the ranks and went through some very, very tough times. People find resilience from different places. Wh where where did you find resilience came from? What what did you lean on to to to be able to bounce forward when things got really tough? speaker-0: I I grew up in a Christian household. I'm still a Christian. I lean on my faith a lot. I think the older you get, the more important that becomes. ⁓ especially when you're on your own. And, you know, I was never really alone. You know, my father passed, but my mother is still alive. So it was never you know, I had family, I I had friends, so you're you know, but that is definitely a source of of resilience for me. And then, you know, I again I My parents were baby boomers. And so there's a there was a kind of certain amount of pick yourself up and keep going. There were that was kind of the expectation I saw it modeled in my house, but that was also the expectation of me. And it and you know, my my dad was very wise. And you know, some of the things that he would say to me are like, you know, give yourself a day to grieve, or give yourself a certain time to grieve, whatever it was, whatever the loss was, the relationship, the friendship, the job you didn't get, you know, or whatever. And then and then you move on. You you you figure out a path forward. So so it was instilled in me. I saw it modeled. I would say, you know, my faith. And then, you know, I think I'm also just driven. I've been lucky enough to to have goals. And so those are also the things that kind of drive you forward. And at a certain point you look at yourself and, you know, you're having that internal dialogue and you say, Well, well, what now? And you know, is this it? And usually the answer is no. I would feel A certain way if I didn't at least keep trying. And if I don't get there, that's one thing, but I think I would feel worse if I didn't continue to try. So I I think that all of those things drive me and keep me moving even on days when I don't feel like it. So I I'm blessed. I have a really I have I'm married, I have a wonderful husband who's very supportive and ⁓ I have a son. And so those those keep me moving as well. Yeah. speaker-1: And so fast forward, so you know, you you decide to go to law school, right? You obviously you came from, as you mentioned, you had educator parents. So you decide to go to law school, you start doing plaintiff's work, you have like an insane amount of cases your first year as an attorney, right? And I think you had something you told me you had like fifty cases or something in your first year, something crazy. Yeah. And the weird thing is what you told me afterwards was you never really wanted to be a partner in a law firm. Which is like So counterintuitive. Like when I, you when you talk to most people who go to law school, they're like, ⁓ yeah, I want to be a partner, right? Or like maybe they want to be a judge, I guess. I don't know. But what were you actually looking for? I mean, when you went into law, what what what were you looking for? speaker-0: Think they probably went in for all the reasons they tell you, don't go in, right? I you know, I love to argue, I love to think on my feet, I love to solve problems. I liked the theater of litigation. ⁓ you know, in high school I had done mock trial and you know, I had also done debate. And so I had I liked all of those things. I was trying to figure it out too. I had taken a class in my senior year of high school called Steps in Starting Your Own Small Business. Okay. And so, you know, I was going down the business route in in college. And but, you know, law school had always kind of just been in the back of my head being a lawyer. And it's funny, if you go back and look at my high school yearbook, my senior yearbook, it says I'm going to be a corporate attorney. And yeah. And so I I I wa I got away from that a little bit and, you know, entered into business school at Merquette. And then my sophomore year, I was watching politically incorrect. Bill Maher show at the time. It was on ABC. I was alone in my dorm room. It was on. I liked the show. And I'm gonna date myself here. But there was a constitutional attorney on talking about the Bill Clinton Monica Winsky stink scandal. Yes. And I I honestly thought what she was saying was idiotic. And I said to myself, Well speaker-1: God, I remember that. speaker-0: She can be a lawyer. I can be a lawyer. And and that I made the decision right there. I was going to law school and that was my sophomore year. And and that's that's what I did. That's so speaker-1: That's that's super that's super interesting because you I I'm always fascinated by why people make the career decisions that they make, right? And then of course, for some people it works out, but for a lot of people it doesn't work out and they end up pivoting and they try different things. And now, you know, when I talk to a lot of young people, a lot of young people are don't seem to know where they're going. And, you know, I guess the question is i is is AI potentially making this worse? But but walk us through a little bit You know, the first couple of years in law firms, right? You were two different law firms, you know, y you had set your sight on being you know, on becoming a corporate lawyer from high school. What what happened there and what did that period do to you? speaker-0: I started at a yeah, like you said, I started out at a plaintiff's firm and I got some great experience. And that was really helpful getting me to the next step. It was, you know, not law firms, at least then, were culturally very difficult. And, you know, I had the unfortunate experience of feeling very isolated and picked on and, you know, not particularly supported. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ and and I don't, you know, but I I think a lot of people who we espe women and people of color will tell you like they were just difficult cultures at the back then. I don't know that they still are you know, I still have a lot of friends that but who are lawyers, but most are not in firms any longer. ⁓ and so and it's it's really dependent on the firm. So I don't want to say that that's that was the culture everywhere. That just happened to be my experience. And yeah, it was really grueling. I mean, you billibor hours and, you know, high expectations and, you know, caring about your wellness and your mental health wasn't a thing back then. And so yeah, it was it was a difficult environment. And yes, you had to really, you know, lean on people. People, you know, lean on your faith and lean on again your resilience. And so and then I again, I think, you know, retrospect, I didn't love it. And so that made it just twelve times harder than it probably would have been for somebody who actually loved the work. I did not. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed, you know, certain people in certain cases, but on the whole, I'd have to say they were hard years. I was not happy. And so yeah. speaker-1: I mean when you when you look back on that, what what advice would you give a younger version of yourself, maybe the version, you know, right before joining one of these law firms? Wha is was there anything that you could have done differently? Was there any advice you could have given yourself? I think speaker-0: You know, traditional wisdom has said, you know, make sure you're not just interviewing for the job, but make sure you are interviewing the job as well. Talking to people and not the people that they give you to talk to, but talking to other people, I think would be helpful. But, you know, I also think culturally at the time, you know, you're just excited. I came out like kind of in the dot com bust era. Mm-hmm. And so, you know, it was there were a lot of people like finding it hard to land somewhere. So sometimes you're just happy to be somewhere. So I mean, I I think I would have said that. I would have said probably like to evaluate like my sense of happiness more often than I actually did. I was kind of consumed by the grind and didn't take time to really step back and say, like, well, is it how am I feeling? And, you know, am I more stressed than not? speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: And there's a good stress and a bad stress, right? Is it good stress like, you know, I'm I'm cooking and I'm, you know, doing all the things and I have a lot on my plate, but generally speaking, like this this work fulfills me. That's a kind of good stress, I think, versus I don't want to go to work stressed. So I think, you know, taking time intermittently to really look at, you know, is it how is my health doing? Am I checking in on myself? Like, is this the does this feel right? I would encourage younger folks to do. And then maybe just to leave a lot earlier than I did. I think I stuck around places longer than I than I should have, especially once I realized that I wasn't happy. But I you know, you know, those I don't know. Part of it's just part of, you know, learning it all in your twenties. speaker-1: No, sure. Sure. But it it's it's also part of it is it seems that, you know, as we get older and we take more knocks on the head, you know, we build more self awareness of what really matters to us ⁓ and the things that we're willing to tolerate and the things that we're not willing to tolerate. I mean, I I understand what you're saying. I mean, definitely in the context of the dot com bust, I I like a lot of people lost my job ⁓ and you end up being fortunate that you just find something, right? And it's good to feel wanted. So sometimes we kind of ignore that. speaker-0: It is. I would also say ⁓ sorry. Go. speaker-1: No, go ahead, go ahead. speaker-0: Yeah, I I I would also say that, you know, I really admire this the the younger generations and that they have said I there, you know, I want work life balance and I'm not willing to not have it in my life. It really really come you know, that really wasn't a thing. I was speaker-1: Yeah. You couldn't have that conversation back then. speaker-0: No, it was you would be laughed out of the room. So it was, you know, it was a real it was a grind culture. So I really appreciate the the younger generation and in saying, you know, what they want and what they need and and not being willing to compromise on for values to get those things. So I think in that way they are ahead of of some of us. speaker-1: How do you know when something's not working? And at what point do you decide that it's painful enough that you have to make a change? speaker-0: you know pretty quickly when something isn't working. I think the hard part is figuring out is this a season I'm going through? Will it be better? You know, if I if 'cause you know, Boston's come and go, I've had that situation happen. If I go work for somebody else, am I, you know, is that better? So, you know, when I was in the law firms, right, different partners had yeah, working for different partners was very different. And so Some folks it was great and you had a wonderful working relationship, others not so great. And so, you know, having a couple of assignments with a not so great partner, but on the whole, having assignments with other people that so I think the hard part is is that second question is like, is it time to go? Because, you know, you can have a bad day, you can have a bad month, you can even have a bad year. And that doesn't necessarily mean that the whole employment experience was bad overall. So, you know, but I think, you know, when you're when you are laying in bed in the morning and you're like, I really don't want to do this. And you know, there are different reasons why that could be, right? But I think when you're starting to have those kinds of things, when you're starting to feel more anxiety than anything else when you do not like or do not get along with your boss, ⁓ I think that's a one of the lessons I I was literally just talking to a good friend of mine who's also an employee employer about that. That like, you know. That's might not change. And so if you do not like respect and they do not like or respect you back, it's definitely time to go. speaker-1: Yeah, I can understand that. I can understand. speaker-0: So I think it's the second part that's that's harder because I you know, I've had situations where things start wonderful and then, you know, you get a new manager and then things go downhill. So it's not and so you're just kind of waiting to figure out, well, is this how it's always gonna be, or is it just, you know, a bad year or a bad month? And so I I just think you have to sometimes get quiet with yourself and be honest with yourself and take stock and not be afraid of pivoting. I think that's the other thing that I would say to younger folks is there's a lot of value in the pivot. You can learn a lot. Sometimes the next great thing is in that pivot. So not being afraid of just taking that step or asking that question or taking the assignment that's not necessarily in your job spec or doing a complete 180 and in deciding like this isn't it. I'm going that way. So yeah, I would say, you know, And that's not to say you should, you know, be changing every job every six months or every year. Because sometimes it does get better. But I think you ⁓ you do need to take some real stock and figure out if this is bad for my mental health, then I need to to rethink it. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's interesting because, you know, you went through two difficult experiences, two different firms. There were issues at at both firms, you know, and then it doesn't work out. And then it seems that it doesn't work out a second time. But then, you know, one of the things I like I like about your story, which we discussed last time, is you you did something that very few people do, which which I thought was very smart on your part and showed us a lot of self awareness, which is, you know, you you decided to go out and hire a career coach, right? Walk us through a little bit Why you know, what was that process like? Why did you decide to get help? And and and what kind of help did you find you got from working with this person? speaker-0: I do want to clarify something quickly. ⁓ you know, my experience at the firms that I was at was not everybody's experience and was not the experience of, you know, all African Americans. So I do want to make that clear. You know, it's funny. I I was lucky enough, and again, I think that this is, you know, my dad was my hero and you know, he was really good at figuring out what he was good at and what he wasn't. And, you know, we in my family culture, they were they would tell me if they didn't like something, didn't approve of something, didn't think something was a good idea, didn't think something was worth my time. And so I think kind of those things together, you know, my dad, my dad knew like, you know, I'm good at these things and I'm not so good at these things. And so if I'm not so good at these things, then I'm going to, you know, ask somebody else to do them for me, hire somebody else to do them for me, or get help with them, whatever. And so I kind of grew up watching that. speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: And, you know, my parents were public, you know, my mother was a public servant servant for her whole career. She was a teacher. And my dad, ⁓ you know, started out as a teacher, then went to public administration and then pivoted completely and was like, I can't work for people and hung out his own shingle. And so he was an entrepreneur. They couldn't really shepherd me through law firms or legal culture or even corporate culture. And so I was I knew what I didn't know. And I knew that like I you know, I don't know how to do this. I I and my and you know, my parents could give me generalized advice. Yeah, sure. But they couldn't shepherd me through this particular challenge. And so and even just like having somebody to talk to about it, right? And you're feeling when you're feeling alone and isolated and, you know, you feel like you have, you know, three thousand pounds on your shoulders, just being able to talk through that. ⁓ and have somebody speak to you and tell you like you know, you're smart, you're capable, you know, this is just a season, you will get through this was helpful. ⁓ but actually, and you know, for a types like me, and just knowing, okay, here's the steps, right? Right. And I think that just getting on the path is invaluable. And so because you do not know what doors are going to open once you start taking the steps. And exactly that I think was what was so helpful in having a career coach. So I think I just just being like, I can't, I can't do this. I don't know what to do. Right. ⁓ and so it helps me get out of my head and talk with somebody through a plan. And even now I have an executive coach. So, you know, I think it's important to have somebody who's seen things who is not as close to the situation as you are. Be objective and and in and speak speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah. speaker-0: you know, life into you. You know, even now people are like, ⁓ well, you haven't been in HR your whole career. So you can't do we're we don't want you for whatever. And, you know, they have a career coach be like, No, actually you have a pretty great background. Like sometimes you need to just hear that. So speaker-1: Yeah. Makes perfect it makes perfect sense. So what I'm hearing you say is kinda like on the one hand, the career coach kinda helps us, you know, see perhaps certain doors that we don't see, right? Certain options that we don't necessarily see or are conscious of. On the other hand, they they can be a cheerleader, right? When we're down, you know, our parents and our and our family are always gonna support us, right? But but they love us, right? So it's not It's not exactly the same. And on the other hand, you know, I and I look, I I wholeheartedly agree with you. I mean, that's that's why I've done the work that I've been doing for the last eight years. And, you know, I worked with a career coach as well when I when I left tech. You know, I think they can also they can also kind of help us with decision making and be an accountability partner because some of these decisions, like making a career pivot, is hard, right? And and it's it's scary. And so I I I wanna kind of dig in a little bit and and understand from you how did you overcome that fear? I mean, you invested all this time, all your education into getting into law. You know, your high school yearbook picture is all about, you know, you being a corporate lawyer. Then all of a sudden you start to do this pivot. How did you get over the fear and the uncertainty to do something like that? speaker-0: It wasn't all of a sudden. Right. I had been thinking about for years and years. I I probably at least a decade I was thinking about it. Like a maybe. And then, you know, you have doubts. Do you think through, you know, this is the thing that I know. This is the experience I have. And although it was a career pivot, it wasn't so radical. Right. I was doing employment law my whole life. Right. My clients and the people I was talking to on a regular basis were HR people. So so not. Totally radical. So I I think, you know, again, you know, a friend of mine was just like, you've been talking about this for forever. Well, what's what's stopping you? Why don't you? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And and so, and same with, you know, it's funny, like, so you know, same with getting locks. I I talked about a scoreboard before I actually I usually did. St. Bratton, like, why don't you just do that? speaker-1: Why don't you just do it already? Complain. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then when you do it they like you all celebrate together. It's like, ⁓ yeah, finally, you know, exactly. speaker-0: But you know, honestly, it really took, you know, my father passing and me just being like, What am I like, I'm unhappy. I've been unhappy. I've had, you know, various variations of this job ⁓ for, you know, years. And so what if I do something else? And then and you know, I think that I had an opportunity at my before I made the pivot to to do some things that I really loved to do. I had raised my hand for a promotion. I was denied the promotion, but I but they I there was this sense of I think wanting to keep me engaged, maybe. And so, you know, I had some opportunities to actually like do some some recruiting type things and to think through how should we be looking at recruiting and how should we be looking at our talent pool? And it was four lawyers, but I loved it. I loved it. And so, you know, doing research about well, what what are people doing and what's what are these trends and you know, what tools are people using? And, you know, and so yeah, I I I was like, this is actually I really do enjoy this research. I like this research a lot more than I like wheel research. And so so I think, you know, in coming out of post COVID, I think everybody was kind of rethinking everything. So I think it was several things merging together that finally got me moving. speaker-1: Now it's interesting because it's like, you know, one of the things I've found with people, which I've which is so on the one hand, it's frustrating to see people go through this. On the other hand, it's also very sad. Is, you know, I talked to a young woman, I think a year and a half ago who had been let go at Google. She had spent seven or eight years, ⁓ Indian, incredibly talented, just super smart, very capable. And it was clear that, you know, she'd been let go and she was going through this period where she was really struggling to figure out what was next, right? And yet so often you run into people where you can see that they're stuck and you can see that they are not figuring out and that for some reason they refuse to do what you did, which is to get help, to to to get, you know, professional to help you. What would you say to people out there who are feeling stuck but feeling that for some reason they don't want to quote kind of like have the expense of getting a coach to help them figure it out? What what would you tell those people? speaker-0: You don't have to have a coach, like a formal coach. There are a lot of people who are probably willing to coach you for free, right? There are mentors and things. Sure. But I think the one thing we forget all the time is we've got more information at our fingertips than we ever have in in any era before. And now with AI, you know, you can get suggestions. It's even better. Instead of just Google searches, they can there are suggestions and steps to take and and so you know, there is a quote that I like a lot by W. H. Murray on, you know, taking the next step. And it says, until one is committed, there is hesitancy, the chance to draw back, always ineffectiveness. Concerning all acts of initiative, there is one elementary truth, the ignorance which kills mo k kills countless ideas and splendid plans. That moment one definitely commits oneself. then providence moves too. You will meet people who will take you to the next thing or open the next door or get you to the next connection or the next opportunity. And I think that's what's important. To me, it's not so much about having a coach. Right. I do think it's good to ask for help, but you know, that can come in a lot of different, different avenues and a lot of different methods. I think the important thing is taking that step forward. And that was my experience. I'd been thinking about it, thinking about it, thinking about it. And then when I really got serious and started networking intentionally for this thing to make this pivot, it was less than six months when I had the opportunity that came my way that I ended up eventually taking. And and there were opportunities that came before the opportunity that I took that, you know, didn't pan out. But again, opened doors got me in front of people, got me talking to folks, got me thinking. And I think to me, that is the most important thing. Like it is easy to get stuck. We all do. And sometimes it's okay to be stuck for a minute because sometimes you you need to sit with yourself and figure out what it is you really want. And I think that is, you know, one of the things that's nice about having a coach is that they will force you, ask you, encourage you to take out the fluff and figure out what you really value. And so you can take intentional steps forward. But to me, just moving when you're right, but being intentional about those moves and and actually doing it is what really is going to set you apart. Cause there are so many people who speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Get stuck and then stay stuck. speaker-1: Yeah, it's like paralysis analysis, right? And it's ⁓ that like they they overthink things so much. And it's weird because it's sometimes you know, you almost have a feeling like people who are highly intelligent and highly accomplished suffer even more because they get into their own head and it's like this loop that they're like, Well, I could do this, but then this is gonna happen, or I could go off and do this, but the risk is this. And so they just get into a loop and they just stay there, right? And so I I think you're absolutely right. I think being intentional And taking even if it's small steps, right? It's like baby steps, you just keep moving forward, that creates momentum. You know, w one of the things that I thought, you know, was was very interesting. Yeah, of course. speaker-0: I would also say, you know, two things. Do the thing you don't want to do. The networking thing that you don't feel like going to go for an out. The call that you don't want to make, make it. What's the worst happens? And you know, the worst thing that happens is you don't get a call back, right? Do that. And one of the things I think that has been a philosophy of mine is is I like, I don't like, but I do the thing that scares me. If it's scary, I should be doing it. speaker-1: Why do you do that? speaker-0: Why do I do that? It's usually because it's something I I ultimately want or it will bring me to the thing that I ultimately want. And I'm, you know, a lot of it's, you know, self-doubt. And so, you know, kind of pushing through that. Because the only way you figure out if you're made for it or if it makes you happy is to do it. At a certain point you just have to try. And, you know, the the bigger the opportunity, the scary it. scarier it will be. So yes, I do push my look, and you know, I think again, that's part of my past a little bit, right? You know, as a dancer, as somebody who did theater, right? You there's that day when you're in front of an audience. And sometimes it does go all the way wrong. But but you know, 98% of the time it goes perfectly. And so, you know, I I've told this story several times in the last few weeks, but I have a speaker-1: Yeah, sometimes. speaker-0: I work out at a gym and they have trainers that help us through these various workouts. And one of my favorite trainers s recently left and she was a former cheerleader. And so she as we walk into the gym, she would write things in chalk, like, you know, sayings to kind of get us going and and encourage us. And so one of the ones she always wrote, you know, in the gym on whiteboards was you can do hard things. And so I find myself saying that to myself often now. You you can do hard things and the only way to know you can is to to do hard things. So speaker-1: No, it's fascinating that you say that, ⁓ Nikki, because you know, the the other thing that, you know, most people don't realize is that the neuroscience backs up what you just said, right? The neuroscience now shows us that our brain actually rewires itself when we do hard things. And so we become more resilient, right? It's it's it's funny because like, you know, I I do a lot of public speaking, we're right, which is one of those things that terrifies the vast majority of people are like You know, they'd rather die than be on stage, right? And I Friday I was in stage in front of like seven hundred people in San Diego when I was talking about this. And, you know, it it's it's people I think these days are afraid of doing hard things, right? Because they're afraid of failing. But the reality is kind of like if you succeed, it's awesome because you you reach a whole new level for yourself. But if you fail, it's also kind of awesome because that's where all the learning is. Right. So anytime we try something that's hard, we're kind of kind of We're kind of gonna win either way, and then our brain kind of rewires itself so that the next time we try something hard, it's like, Well, I already did this other thing and that was pretty hard. So how much harder could this be kind of thing, right? speaker-0: Yes. And you're you know, I mean, if you didn't die, right? I didn't die. Exactly. speaker-1: That's so true. That's so true. So, you know, one of the things I wanted to touch on, which I which you mentioned, and you you talked about your your father with this, which I thought, you know, obviously it sounds like your your father was, you know, you were very close to your father. You know, you you learned a lot from him. So he was a source of inspiration. He was an entrepreneur. He he he went his own way. One of the things that struck me about the way you talked about him was his level of self-awareness, right? Like you said that he knew the things that he was good at and he knew the things that he was not good at. Right. And and so there's a magic there, which I think is very underappreciated oftentimes. And and so I'm curious, how important do you believe self-awareness is generally when it comes to making career decisions? And and and on top of that, what can people do to become more self-aware? Like be more like your dad and really understand what am I good at and what should I stay away from? The the first question is, you know, how how how important is self-awareness when you're trying to figure out speaker-0: What was the first question? speaker-1: You know, your career path. speaker-0: It's really important ultimately. You know, I think it's maybe a little less important when you're ⁓ just starting out and you could go several different places because you don't know what you don't know and you don't even know what you like. And you know, sometimes in your twenties you don't even know who you are. You know, that hasn't even really been cemented yet. So, you know, just making sure you're trying a bunch of things is good. And, you know, you'll you'll at a certain point you'll take stock and say this was really fun and this wasn't and whatever. I think the further you get along in your career, I do think it's very important because if you don't have self-awareness, it's hard to pinpoint what you value. And if it's hard to pinpoint what you value, then it's hard to know where you're going to either be happiest or make the most impact or make, you know, whatever is most important to you. Right. I think a lot of us get caught up in title or money or and sometimes that's enough. Sometimes that is the thing that you value. or a person values and that's that is what they are going to chase. Great. But, you know, I think there are a lot of things you need to think about. And you what is it flexibility? Is it, you know, it you know, is it are you mentally safe? Right? Are you yeah psychologically safe? Right. You know, it are do you need your do you need to be able to get accolades? Do you need to be recognized? What are those things? And then It's easier, I think, to figure out what those intentional steps are. And when you get into an environment that doesn't have whatever or someplace that doesn't align with your values, it's easier to say, okay, I need to figure this change or pivot or move or whatever. So I do think it is very important the further you get along in your speaker-1: Yeah. I agree with you a hundred percent. I mean, I am floored by the number of people that think they are self aware, but then they are really not. Right. It's like one of the exercises I do whenever I work with a client is I'll have them go through a leadership assessment of themselves and then I'll have the team assess them with exactly the same questions. And then we sit down and we look at the delta between the two. Right. So it'll be like, How in how much of an assertive communicator am I? Right. And the person will be like, ⁓ I'm an eight out of ten. And the team will be like, No, you're a four. And I remember I had a client who got so depressed when she saw her results because there were some major gaps. And they were and you know, she was very smart. It was, you know, it was a it was a European woman. She she was a CEO running a big retail operation in South America, you know, had a degree from a top school. And when she saw the results, she literally broke down because she's like, ⁓ my God, I I never realized people saw me like this. I always thought I was over here. speaker-0: Yeah, if you want to be humble, become a leader. Or do a three sixty. It will humble you mighty quick. speaker-1: ⁓ boy. No, it it's it's it's so true. It's so true. speaker-0: I think that's one of the things you can certainly do, right? To to get some self awareness. ⁓ but you know, it's also you gotta have that friend or that family member or that whomever who no matter how big you are is gonna tell you the truth. Yep. speaker-1: Yeah, agree with you. I I think I think, you know, taking diagnostics, there are plenty of online tests. You know, I I recently have been building one just because it's so easy to build stuff on cloud code now that I started building a a values assessment at work, believe it or not. You know, what are my core values at work? And but there's a there's a bunch, whether it's like free personality assessments or or or or limiting beliefs assessments or whatever. But I think you you you point out something really, really important, which I don't think enough people realize, which is having somebody who's neutral, who's gonna tell it the way it is. as opposed to sugarcoating it and telling you what you want to hear, right? speaker-0: Yep, yep. speaker-1: And then you're gonna just switch menu. ⁓ go sorry. speaker-0: say and then just being willing open and willing to just hear, hear it. I I don't think you necessarily have to take it in and ingest it all the time, but sometimes sometimes just being willing to stop and think through and hear, truly hear and listen something that is opposite of what you think about yourself. And then think about like why it is people believe that. And even if it's not true, just why do people feel that way? It's a hard exercise, but worth it. speaker-1: No, I ⁓ absolutely. I know I I think a lot more people need to spend time kind of really understanding themselves better because I think if they had more self awareness, they might get a clearer idea of w you know, which careers to follow and which not, or which c which company culture is gonna work with them and and which which company culture is is not gonna work with them. You know, given your role and given what you're doing, you know, and the city that you're working in, you know, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask this question. But I mean, when you look back through this past year, right? What you guys went through from December to February, you know, Operation Metro Surge, very difficult part, very difficult time for the city of Minneapolis, for the police, for the people, for everybody, you know, for people, for those of us watching this on television. You know, the question to I have to you as the HR person is where did you get your resilience to get through that? And and also I'd be curious to know, you know, what did you learn about yourself as a leader going through those months? speaker-0: Obviously I'm speaking for myself and you know, not for the state. I think this is when it's important to know your why. Yeah. ⁓ you know, I never saw myself as a public servant. I didn't go out to become a public servant, but it is a huge bonus of working for, you know, a governmental entity or a municipality, right? ⁓ you're supporting the people who save lives, right? Who make people's lives better. hopefully, right, who are there on people's worst days. And so that is what I like about HR. And that is what I can focus on. Right. There are so many things that I am never going to have control over. So what can I do? And so, you know, ensuring our folks had the mental health services that they needed, ensuring that we have a robust benefits, you know, system that allows for people to get those mental health resources. You know, shout out to the benefits team. You know, they had some wonderful things in place before I ever got there, you know, including, you know, 10 free mental health sessions. And you could see any counsel that you want if you're on our our medical insurance. So those are the kind of innovative things that I think people overlook. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: But that are so important. And so being able to just figure out what your why is and mine was, you know, how can we support our employees going through this? You know, for those employees who, you know, were were encountering so many difficulties, whether that was fear or, you know, they're literally having physical encounters, you know, with whomever, just making sure that they knew what the resources were that existed. ⁓ you know, we worked with some other departments to ensure that we were getting people information that they needed, whether that was for them or family members. So I think it's just, you know, my goal was to support the people who are doing the hard work in the field. And so that was incredibly rewarding. And that is what I could focus on and that's what I could do. speaker-1: What w you know, when you when you experience something like that, because every organization goes through a crisis, right? I mean, you guys had the surge, you know, with businesses getting shut down and violence and the media and everything that it was. You know, we're now going through a period where I don't think we've ever seen this level of change, right? At a societal level, at a global level, you know, we've got we've got wars, we've got conflicts, we've got political divides. ⁓ and then on top of it, now we've got AI and technology that is, you know, threatening to change everything. Right. And so there's another element of change, which, you know, human beings don't like change, right? You and I both know that. We push through it and we figure out ⁓ the you know a series of tools and and whether it's faith, which which I love, I share that with you. I'm I'm I'm Christian as well. And and you know, it's it's really helped me enormously just to be grateful and to believe in something greater than myself. But as a as a leader, how do you how can you what can you do to instill that resilience in others? Right, 'cause one thing is like I'm able to get through this, I'm able to r be resilient, you know, I have my faith, I have other things. But what can you do as a leader to help people understand that they can get speaker-0: I think saying that to people is just, you know, step one. Making sure people do feel supported. Right. ⁓ you know, from an HR perspective, making sure people know what resources are available for them. I think, you know, trying to build a culture where people feel okay to try something new, trying to meet people where they're at. So maybe it's not a wholesale change, but maybe you're just speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: piloting a program and seeing how that goes. And then when people can experience it, it's easier to buy in on the on the end. So, but I mean, you know, building resilience, I think, you know, I think it's it's, you know, it's difficult because that looks different for everyone everyone, right? But I think trying to be of service and I think, you know, kind of articulating those things to people and then allowing people to make mistakes. Right. That I think that that's the other thing that's really hard, especially in some cultures, is, you know, if you are so fearful of of making mistake, then yes, you're gonna stick to the thing that you know because you know how to do that. And so trying to allow a culture where it's okay to make a mistake and allowing people to be empowered to make certain decisions. And even if it's within certain parameters, giving people the freedom to do that, whatever the decision is, and then supporting that decision instead of coming, you know, back circling around and being like, no. Now it doesn't always work out that way, you know, because there are there are sometimes things bigger than that particular situation. But, you know, I I personally as a leader enjoy being able to give people free range and, you know, you know, check in. But like that, those are the situations where I'm the happiest too. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: where I'm just allowed to be creative and be innovative and come up with ideas and come up with suggestions and then execute and see how it goes. So I think it's it's just kind of about meeting people where they are again, articulating your support. And then you actually have to do the things to show that you're supportive. speaker-1: Yeah, I I agree with you. I I think, you know, people look to leaders as role models, right? So if a leader talks openly about failure and about setbacks, about things that didn't work out, they're gonna feel they can have that conversation too, right? If a if a leader tells them it's okay it's okay to fail, let's sit down and talk about what happened and what we learned, then you know, that that's like you said, you know, it's it that builds psychological safety. And I think a lot of organizations struggle with that. I think men seem to struggle with that more than women. You know, we have these these big egos often and we th we think we're al always supposed to get things right or we're afraid about talking about things that don't work out. Right. But that's been fascinating. So, you know, listen, I think before before we we move to our lightning round of questions, which is like three short questions, three short answers. Yeah. On the topic of, you know, resilience and supporting employees and stuff and AI, what have you seen and what are your thoughts about, you know, AI's role in helping people through difficult transitions like the ones that we're going to, whether it's, you know, I don't know, AI's role as a coach or, you know, AI's role as, you know, as as a mental health practitioner. What what what have you seen and where do you think technology can help us get through some of these changes that we need to make? speaker-0: You know, it's interesting, you know, we're still very early on in our AI journey. And I think, you know, some some companies because I you know, they've been talking about AI at conferences and seminars that I've been going to for the last several years. And so there are some organizations that are very far along and other organizations that are still trying to figure it out. Personally, you know, I love better, faster, easier, simpler. And so, you know, something that and and I also like having an easy place to start, right? That this this is not, and that's kind of how I think about it right now. This, you know, AI is not necessarily the end, right? It's just a decent beginning, right? A way to gather information that would maybe would have taken me longer or gather a way of thinking about it or have, you know, a counterpoint that I might not may things that I might not have missed ⁓ or might have missed. So I mean, look, I think it certainly is the future. I I I don't think you can say anything else. I think if done well, I hope that it will improve work and that it will improve our lives, right? That, you know, there will be less mistakes made in surgeries and you know, there will be less, you know, people having, you know, horrible reactions to medications or cross medications, right? Because there will be something that can look at a lot of data. And give us better answers than we have. I do I worry about the future ⁓ in terms of especially, you know, I have a son, yeah, I worry about kids and teenagers and young adults not making not being able to make good decisions alone, not have good discernment because they're so relying on something else to think for them or to make a choice for them. That scares me. And even with employees too, right? speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: So I think it has it definitely has a role. I think it has a place. I think we have to be smart about it. And I think again, the hard part right now is that so many different organizations and people are in so many different places in terms of their willingness to adopt it, their interest in engaging with it, how much they are are not. And so, you know, those are the things that I think are are really going to be difficult. But I think again it kind of goes back to organizational values. Yeah. And so, you know, how one organization uses it and implements it is going to be very different and should be, because different organizations and cultures are going to be ⁓ you know, different are going to be driven by different values. So yeah. That's I guess we'll we'll I'll see. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, we you know, we will see. I mean, it's a crazy time. I'm excited about it, but I understand people's fears. You it's it's we o we always get we're always a little bit afraid of what we don't understand. And definitely when you when you see news like we did last week of like, you know, models breaking out of their containers and hacking into, you know, other company systems, that's that's a concern, right? But ⁓ but humanity has an amazing amount of resilience and and we are able to get through things. So ⁓ I guess we just gotta trust we're we're gonna get through this. On to our lightning round of questions. Three quick questions, three quick answers, super fast. Question number one for you. If you could have one superpower, what would you choose? speaker-0: I'd be able to read thoughts. I'd be I'd be able to speaker-1: Mind reader. Love it. Love it. Love it. Very cool. All right. Question number two. If you could have dinner with anyone in history, alive or dead, who would it be? speaker-0: You know, I'd have to say Barack Obama Obama. I've I've I've met him briefly. Okay. Hit his charisma and he just he seems like he would be a that'd be a good time. So and I have a lot of questions. So many speaker-1: I think we all have a lot of questions. He is a fascinating person. I won't hide it. I'm I'm a big fan of his. So yeah, he he'd be a great person to have to have dinner with. Definitely very interesting conversations. Absolutely. And last but not least, if you could give one piece of advice to a young person looking for a career of meaning and purpose, what would you tell them? speaker-0: Follow your heart and don't be afraid to pivot. speaker-1: I like that. Very, very well said. Well, Licky, look, this has been ⁓ an a really awesome episode. Thank you so much for your time. ⁓ thank you so much for being like super honest, super generous. You know, I think, you know, the combination of honesty and and and grit and fight given everything you've been through, you know, the the environments that were that were difficult and really challenging and and you didn't just survive them. You know, you you you thrived and you got out the other end and you know, you were brave and you made these pivots. And it it sounds like the pivots that you're made as difficult as they were. really got you into a very good place where you're certainly having a lot of impact and and and you know really helping others, right? And God knows, you know, the city of Minneapolis has really benefited from from your help over the last year. So thank you so much for your time and generosity and your openness for everybody listening. If this conversation hit home, you know, if you learned something, if you took away something, subscribe, you know, follow us on the channel, leave a couple of comments, ask some questions, whatever you want to do, share this with somebody who maybe really needs to hear Nikki's story and her advice. And that's it from us here at Mork Unfiltered. We're signing off now. We will see you on the next episode. Thank you very much and God bless.