Latest / Cait & Court's Cozy Corner: Romance Readers / Let's Talk About: Cursed City and Half City with author Kate Golden
Transcript
- Cait: Hi. Court: Hi. Cait: Welcome back to season two of Cait and Court's Cozy Corner: Court: Romance Readers. Cait: Where we only talk about books that we love. And we're bringing you all of our favorite romance and romantasy reads because Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: our motto is Court: When people say that you don't need spice to make a book good, well you don't need running shoes to run, but it helps. Caitlin Stryker: And you know the drill, like and subscribe wherever you listen to our podcasts. Cait: Hi, welcome back. Court: Hi, Cait: Today we are so excited. We have Court: Kate. Mm-hmm. Cait: author Kate Golden with us. Say hi, Kate. Court: Yeah. Kate Golden: Hi guys, thank you for having me, I'm so excited. Cait: We're so excited to have you here. So Court: Yes. Cait: Kate is the author of Cursed City and Half City. And I am so thrilled that Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: you agreed to come on and talk with us and that these books came across, like came oh my way through this podcast. I think Court already knew about them because she's our she's our expert and I'm like the Court: Yeah. Cait: newbie here. But I Kate Golden: it. Cait: A am obsessed with romantasy. I love it so much. Kate Golden: same. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: And be reading these books, I was like, this is everything I love. Kate Golden: thank you. thank you. Cait: So much fun. Yeah. Court: So good. And your other series, Donovanics, what's the title of that series? Sacred Stones. Kate Golden: Sacred stones, but a lot of people are just like the dawn of onyx trilogy, so it's whatever it's whatever Court: Yes, but I didn't even connect you as the same author because the covers are such a pivot, Kate Golden: funny. Yes. Court: total different style that it took me a minute and I was reading. Cause you actually have, we'll go into the synopsis, but you have a very specific writing style. And when I started reading, I didn't connect it with you. And then I'm like, wait, I think I've read something from her before. And then I looked up like, it's Donovan. Okay, okay. Totally like get it. Yes, which is so great. but Kate Golden: funny! oh my god yes I love that! Court: yes. Amazing. But now this new series is so excited about it because I didn't realize it was out and I loved it and devoured it and so did Kate. So if you want to tell us Kate Golden: thank you, thank you, thank you. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: what it's about so we can bring everyone else in, that would be great. Kate Golden: Yes, Cait: Yes. Kate Golden: absolutely. so Half City, definitely a turn from, you know, that first book, A Dawn of Onyx, Court: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: and that series is like medieval swords and scales, horseback riding, know, romantic, fey, all that. This is more like... Buffy, supernatural, charmed, vampire, Cait: Yeah. Court: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: don't know why these are all like 2000s TV shows and I'm not using books as examples, like that's what comes to mind when I think about pitching Court: It's real. Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: this book series. It's, know, like urban fantasy set in sort of a version of our world. It's not exactly our world. It's sort of like a reimagined New York City that's called Astera. And the book's called Half City because the city Astera is bisected by this like giant chasm that is actually sort of like a gateway to the underworld, which the average You know, mortal doesn't know, they sort of think it's like a geological wonder, like, you know, Grand Canyon or something. But for those in the know, like our heroine, Viv Abbott, it's sort of the gateway for demons and vampires and werewolves and the like to escape into the city. And she is a hunter and has to hunt these things down to keep people safe. So when we start Half City, She is sort of like a lone wolf. She's, you know, by day trying to be a lot of things for a lot of different people, like a shitty boyfriend, a mom that doesn't understand her, et cetera. And by night, you know, she hunts things, you know, creatures and ghouls and et cetera. Until one day she is found by a like reformed demon. So someone that she probably should, she thinks she's supposed to kill, but he's like, you know, hold your horses. I'm not who you think I am. And he actually is a teacher at a school for people like So a college for hunters called Parker Academy. And he recruits her to come into the school. And of course, when she gets there, everything is not as it seems. And she ends Court: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: up having to in the first book, sort of it's like a mystery, you know, reveals itself that she is uniquely equipped without like spoiling too, too much to solve because she's a hunter, but there's something sort of unique about her. She's like a specific kind of hunter that people long have long since believed to have died out. And so in the first book, she's got to solve this mystery. ends up, you know, having a romantic entanglement with this demon. So you've got the fun twist of like the hunter and the demon falling for one another. And of course he craves her soul and she feels destined to kill him, but they, they fall for one another. And then at the end of the first book, again, without spoiling too, too much, they are separated. And at the beginning of this book that comes out, well, I don't know when this episode will air, but it comes out on September 29th. Okay. Amazing. So this book that. Court: This will air right after after it comes up. Yeah. Yeah. It's out. Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: as you're listening is out now, is Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: called Curse City Court: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: and is the second book she has to team up with his brother who is like as evil and twisted as can be, like not a reformed demon, like a very, very bad demon through and through. she has so, yeah, active, actively, I would say like not even morally gray, like fully immoral. Court: Yeah, active demon. Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Kate Golden: She has to team up with his brother to track down the demon that she loves and save his life. But at the same time, her own life is being threatened. So we've got kind of like a hundred issues she's got to solve and that is fucked up. There you go. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: Yes. that was such a great way to Cait: Nice. Kate Golden: Okay. Court: tip us off. And we will eventually go into spoilers. We're not there yet, so I'll keep it spoiler-free for now. But I love that all I could think when you're explaining the first book was like, right, I love Buffy and Angel. Like once you were saying it, like her and Reed. I'm like, right, it's very much same, obviously. That's why we're here. Yes, of course. Kate Golden: Well, those are oh my favorite shows. Yeah. oh my God. Kinship. Cait: Mm-hmm. same. Yeah. Yeah. Court: and Kate Golden: Thank Court: And then I'm very much like, and like Damon, like I'm just going through like as you said Kate Golden: Yeah, yeah. Court: the ones. I'm like, yeah, totally get this. And I think that's why it's so easy to get pulled into these worlds because you know the zeta. Cait: Yeah, you can really see it. Court: Yeah, but it's so well done. Like from the first, Kate Golden: Thank you. Court: the second, the burning and the the build up between them. I think you did such a great job. And with the separation of the humans and the demon world, Cait: Yeah. Court: And their awareness of it. I really love and I love now with you as a mom, the first scene in the first book now with the stroller and the mom, the first person she Kate Golden: Yeah. Court: saves from the demon trying to like suck the souls of the twins. Cait: yeah. Kate Golden: it's so funny. Like I wrote that before I was even Court: Yeah. Kate Golden: like thinking about having baby by the time I was editing it, I was pregnant. And now when I'm like rereading the books and I have a baby, I'm like, oh my god, there's so much like mother child content in these books. I mean, it really having a baby has really affected even just like the story I ended up telling about our heroine and her mom, because by the time I was writing Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: the third book, I was seeing it from the perspective of a mother and I'm like, Court: Right. Cait: Right. Ha Kate Golden: we gotta overhaul this whole thing. Cause I'm like, Cait: ha yes. Yeah. Kate Golden: understand things on a whole new level now, you know? Court: It's like how you go through Gilmore Girls for us. You were Rory, and then you're suddenly Lorelei, and then like even later, you're Emily. And you're like, God. Right? Kate Golden: Yes. Yes. oh my God. You're gonna make me cry. Yeah, truly. Yeah, truly. Yes. Cait: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Court: It's got that point of view. And it's so, it's so fun. What I love when you dive into your books is the world building. I feel like you do your world building from a really interesting perspective that is different than most romanticies. And I say that because so many romanticies blend together. Kate Golden: Thank you. Court: but they're all fun and different storylines. But this one, like you have a very clear point of view and voice, and it's really Cait: Mm. Kate Golden: Thank you. Court: cool and it like it almost feels like a friend bringing you into the world. That's almost how I would put it. It's like always through the character. Kate Golden: That's like the highest compliment. That's all you could ever want because world building can be so complex and you never want people to open the Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: book and be like, oh my God, I don't know what's going on and just like close it. So that is exactly Court: Yes. Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: that's all you're ever like striving for. Yeah. Thank you so much. Court: well you did it. That's a near goal. Cait: Yeah. totally. Like very Court: Yes. Cait: quickly it was in the world, understood the rules, and and even when they were being explained, I was like, this is fun. okay, this is Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: cool. I get what's going on here. And I love Kate Golden: Cool. Okay. Cait: how you brought in so many different beings and like, you know, yeah. Kate Golden: That's like the most fun. oh my God. That was the most fun part. When you sit down to write it you're like, Hmm, what does she hunt? You're like, what are all the most fun creatures from all the things I've Court: Yes. Kate Golden: read and loved and how can I make, you know, put twists on them so they feel unique to oh my world, but still understandable, you know, for the average Buffy supernatural watcher who's going to be like, I get this. You know, it's like, you want to kind of Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: constantly thread that needle of like, this feels unique and I'm not bored, but also I understand the parameters here because I take in a lot of this media. Court: Yeah. Yeah, you're one of them. I love your Cait: Yes, yeah. Court: descriptions of every male and female character in these books too. They're very high level attractive people, which is super Kate Golden: Thank you. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: fun part. Kate Golden: Yes, Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: that's, you know, that's the, that's the thing. That's part of the fantasy. You know, you're like, everybody's hot. Yeah. Why not? Cait: It is. Yeah. Yes. Court: Right? It it's that Cait: Why not? I don't Court: And it's true, like even Supernatural, as you talked about it. I was on Supernatural, I played a Witch, and I was with both boys for oh my scene to it. Kate Golden: I was gonna say you look familiar, but then I was like I'm not gonna but you were right wait This is so crazy because I watched the whole show. oh my god. Okay to be discussed later, but I was like losing oh my mind Court: Yes. Yeah, yes. I cause Yes. Yes, to to discuss it later. Cait: Yeah. Court: But I was a witch and I remember when both boys, because Jensen was directing, and then both boys were in one of the scenes, they walked in, and I was like, it just is this in real life. Cool. Like it's just like as Kate Golden: Ha ha ha, cool cool cool. Court: attractive Cait: Yeah. Court: and tall and built as it seems on the show. And I was like, okay, this just Cait: Mm. Court: is how you exist. Okay, cool. And I feel like that's Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: in your book too. It's just such like that place of like, yeah. just really hot and that's just the Kate Golden: Yeah. Court: reality of this. Kate Golden: I think also it's like Cait: Totally. Kate Golden: if we can suspend our disbelief for all these other things, like why not? I think also like when you love, don't you find that like when you love people, you're like, you are the most attractive person ever. Like I, I mean, all oh my Cait: Yes. Kate Golden: friends are very gorgeous, but also like the more I like fall in love with oh my girlfriends, I'm like, oh my God, you're a goddess. Like you are the most beautiful Cait: Yes. Kate Golden: person on the planet. And like, I remember seeing all oh my bridesmaids when I was getting married and I was like, how did all these supermodels become oh my friends? And they are very, very beautiful, like even if I didn't love them, but I just mean like when you love people, you see them in this like halo. And so Court: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: like that's Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: how you feel about your characters. You're like, just, you know, flaws Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: and all, like you guys are so, you know, these are characters that I love and I care for so much. They just become like so gorgeous and so beautiful. So I sort of end up always writing characters. I'm like. you know, this person is like so handsome or he walks into a room and everybody turns and I'm like, that's just, know, whether it's like the nerdy guy or it's the really beefy guy or it's the dark, you know, moody guy, Peter. But I'm like, Peter's Court: There Peter Peter Kate Golden: so hot. Peter looks like, you know, Cait: You know. So Kate Golden: Andrew Court: Yeah. Kate Golden: Garfield's Spider-Man to me. You know what I mean? Like they're all gorgeous. Court: Yes. Cait: Ooh yeah. Yeah. Court: Yeah. He's a slutty little glasses guy. For those that need it. You've got Peter in this series. Yeah. Absolutely. You need well, and honestly Kate Golden: Yeah. Correct. Correct. Correct. We need one. You always need one. Of course. Cait: Yeah. You do. Court: you did that with Reed and his brother Deacon to the point of similar to Vampire where you're like, Well, they're both just really hot and Kate Golden: They're both really hot. What can you do? Cait: They are. They are, but okay. I Court: Okay. Cait: feel like we're I mean, A, I love what you said about, you know, the more you like know someone and like someone, the more attractive they become because absolutely and how you connected that too. You love your characters. So then they also, you know, are Court: Mm. Cait: then attractive. and Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: then be you would describe them that way. That's really cool. I've never heard somebody kind of put it in that perspective before as an author. I love that. That's really interesting. Court: Mm-hmm. Yes. Kate Golden: I think also it's like great to feel like there is no set standard for beauty too. Like all these people Court: Yes. Kate Golden: could not look more different and they're all so hot. And I think that is Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: also just like the such a great feeling. Like it doesn't have to be like, well, this is the nerdy girl. So she can't be hot. Like the hot girl. It's like, no, the black Cait: right. Kate Golden: hat girl is hot. The party girl is hot. The like really sweet Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: girl is hot. Everybody's hot. Court: Yeah. Cait: Everyone's hot. Welcome to Kate Golden's Universe. I love it. Kate Golden: Correct. Cait: Okay. But so we're from here on, we're there's gonna be some spoilers. So if if you haven't read these books yet, do yourself a favor, pause, Court: Yes. Cait: go read, and come back and join us. You can Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: stick with us if you want and you don't mind having spoilers, but honestly, these are these books are a really fun ride. Court: Worth reading. Kate Golden: Thank Cait: worth reading, a great time. I am so excited to be talking about it right now. And I'm like kind of sad that I'm done the second book. I'm like, when is the third one? Like I want back in. Court: Yes. Yes. I know. Kate Golden: all of you guys. It's not too far away. Court: J I wanted because honestly, Cait: Okay. Court: jumping into the tune, I'm like, man, I was so close to just like reading this once it was completed had I not known because Cait: Yeah. Court: the cliffhangers, which you're so good at, I'm just like, ugh, Kate Golden: Yes. Court: when do I just Cait: Yes. Court: go back into it? Cause it's so good. Cait: I was, yeah, I was very happy Kate Golden: So. Cait: to be able to finish the first book and dive right into the second one, Court: Me too. Cait: you know, like being like, okay, great, like I don't need to wait. And then, so spoilers will come from here on. You've Court: Yes. Cait: been warned. Let me tell you, we were not that far into the second book. And I was like, Team Deacon. Court: Yep. Yep. Cait: I jumped fucking ships so fast. Kate Golden: You and me both. You're not alone. I'm like thrilled. Cait: God, this is embarrassing. I have like no loyalty to read. And the spice in the first one with him was great, but I was very Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: quickly like bad boy over hot professor every day of the week. End of story. Like Kate Golden: every day of the week. Yeah. Court: It's so hard. I am I I hate triangles myself because I get so attached. I get so attached and I hate triangles. But I did get Cait: thought of you too because you hate triangles. I kind of think I love them. Court: one over by like I knew when I saw Deacon go. Listen, I was never a Damon girl. I still want to sit on by the NFI Timers. But Kate Golden: Fair enough, yes, that's fair. Court: this case, in this case, the way, because so those of you what if you've read it and you know, like when Rude comes back. I think you did a really good job of writing him and his backstory with her that made it okay to justify Deacon. Like I wanted Deacon, but I couldn't until Cait: Yeah. Court: she had that reunion with him and like actually see it. Then Kate Golden: So fair. Court: I was like, okay, let's get rid of him now. Like I was, I, I, Cait: really? you couldn't until then? Court: while I couldn't fully let go of him, I'm still like, what if he's like, I know he wouldn't, because I know how books work. But I needed that Kate Golden: Yeah, he could be yearning. He could be needing her totally. Court: like closure of like, okay. He's never done with him, and now we can be a hundred percent. I want a deacon, but I was still Yeah, I was in that world Kate Golden: You and Viv both. You know, like... Court: of Viv. I get into the main female character's brain of like, but this guy, I went through it. oh my empath self, I can't Kate Golden: Yeah, but the burn is part of it. Like I want them, but I can't. Cait: Yeah, you need that. Court: separate until I get the separation. Kate Golden: Yeah, so fair, totally. It's funny because I also hate a love triangle, hate a love triangle. Court: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: And I think that the... To me, the difference is the love triangle never kind of like absolves you of that feeling. Like a true love triangle like Vampire Diaries. There are people who still to this day are like, she should have been with Stefan. Stefan was so great for her. Like, here's why they worked. Here's why Damon was not right for her. And then there's like team Damon, same with, you know, whatever, like team Angel, team Spike. You could make a really compelling argument for both. Court: Yeah. Yes. Obviously. Yeah. Cait: I was always Team Angel, which is kind of funny with the comparison with this book. Cause you'd think, Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: you must be a spike girl. And I'm like, No, Angel, a girl. But in this one, Deacon. Kate Golden: Yeah, no, but there's Court: No, I still was team angel too. Kate Golden: some angel in both them. There's some spike in both them. I mean, it's obviously not like a one to one. But I think Cait: Mm-hmm. No, yeah. Kate Golden: that there's also so there's kind of like a real triangle where by the time the whatever the story the show the movie is over, people can still feel like I'm angel or I'm spike through and through. And then there's Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: stuff that's more of like a Tamlin Rysand situation or even like or even Cait: Yeah. Court: Yeah. Well it's very clear. Cait: Very clear. Kate Golden: Yeah, we're just like a character grows out of one relationship and into another one. And by the time the story is done, everybody is on the same page that either the first love interest or the person that sort of briefly pulled them away just like was not the one. And I think that the goal by the time I finished the series, without spoiling anything is that when everybody finishes the third book, I don't think anybody will be on opposing sides. I think it will be like Court: Okay. Kate Golden: very, very clear. this is Court: Good. Kate Golden: her love story, this is who she belongs with. And so to me, it's like, even if you hate love triangles, you don't be afraid to read this series because I think by the time it's done, you won't Cait: Yeah, no. Court: Hundred percent. I agree. You pull yes. Kate Golden: be like, but oh my team, you know, so and so shirt, I guess I have to burn it. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: Even even in this book, by the end of that's what I mean, I was satisfied. Like I totally Kate Golden: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Court: got on Team Deacon for me. If you pivot from there, I don't know what I'm gonna do. But at this point Cait: Yeah. Court: I'm totally Kate Golden: Look, that you're in, you're feeling all the right things. How could I pivot from Deacon at this point? Cait: You know what? I might be yeah, I would probably be like, fuck too. Like if you pivoted from Deacon, I'd like Court: Right? Like I think you I think we've earned the deacon we didn't even get a sextine with them yet. We've only gotten like mental images, so I know. So we we need that. It can't b we need that book three. Kate Golden: He's so... I know, they haven't even kissed. They have not even kissed. Cait: Yeah, but I okay, but it's but like I know they haven't Kate Golden: Yes. Cait: okay, we're in spoilers anyway, so it doesn't matter. Like they haven't even kissed, but then Kate Golden: We're here. Court: I know. We looked at we talked about that because we read the book so close together Cait: like he gave her the demon kiss. You know what I mean? And I'm like Kate Golden: I Court: and we're Kate Golden: Yeah. Court: like, there's actually no spice in this one. Like there is, but not like in the first one. There isn't. It's crazy, but it's so good. Like you're so hooked in anyways. Kate Golden: Yeah, no, but there like isn't. No, there really isn't. Cait: Very little. No. Yeah. Yeah. But it's so so Kate Golden: Okay, good. Cait: hooked in. Kate Golden: I'm glad when I turn this into oh my Cait: And let me tell you. Court: Yes. Kate Golden: editor I was like there's no spice in the book and she was like what I'm like, I'm so sorry There's Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: just none. I didn't know where to put it. It didn't it would have felt not right. She was like, okay here we go Cait: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm usually like, I want to give me more spice. Get it in there early. Like, I don't want the slope or whatever. Kate Golden: Literally. Cait: I was so satisfied with this book. I was like, Court: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: I'm so glad. Cait: I don't need, I don't, I didn't need this, but I just needed to make sure like the Kate Golden: The burn, the yearn. Cait: burn in the urine was so good. And I just needed to make sure that we ended with Deacon. And so then when he was like, Maybe dead for a minute there. I was like, what the fuck am I reading? Court: Yeah. Yes. Kate Golden: I gotta keep you on your toes. Gotta keep you on your toes. Court: Agreed. Agreed. I was like, no, this can't be the end. Like, no, no. Something has to happen here. Cait: know he's coming back somehow, but like he better hurry up. Kate Golden: Please? Yeah, you're like, let's wrap this up. Yeah. Well, here's Court: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well it's big as Kate Golden: the fun. Like by not having any spice, number one, I felt like it's like a three pronged thing. One, I felt like it kept the reader really like what's going to happen. Is this a love story with this guy or is this just like a friendship or setting him up for his Cait: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kate Golden: own thing or he's going to have a big, noble sacrifice at the end, like by not giving them spice, it allowed the reader to really like not know where the relationship was going. At least that was oh my hope. And then by not having Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: spice, the second thing was you're really able to go from like enemies to friends to lovers, which I find so Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: much more satisfying. Like they really built this like begrudging, but very legitimate friendship before, Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: at least for her, she started to feel like, wait, am I like very attracted to him? And then of course Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: the fun is that now, Book three is filled with so much spice, it's out of control. And so that's, get to Court: Yeah. Cait: Yes. Kate Golden: read them all together and end with your big finale of like lots of spice Cait: There you go. Court: Which is a good Kate Golden: in the third. Court: way to do it. I think because we read book one and book two, I think for anyone that's going back to read or going to read book two, like read book one again right into it, because then you do also get the spice and urine of the first book. So then that also carries through in the second one too as well. So you feel it. Kate Golden: And the fun thing about the third one is like book two, the way it picks up like the minute book one ends. Same thing with book three. It picks up like the minute book Cait: Yeah. I mean it's got it. Court: I loved that. I Kate Golden: two ends. I love that too, because like I forget everything. I need to go right back into the attention span for this. Yeah. Court: loved that by the way. Yes. Yeah. Cait: I loved that. Thank you. I forget everything. And then I'll be like, which Court: Yes. Cait: book and world am I in? Cause like I Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: I love romantic. So I'm like, give me it all day, all every day, right? But it does Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: get to a point where like sometimes you use like palette cleanse in between so that you can be like, okay, now I'm going in here. And then so when Court: Yeah. Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: they start and then they're like, or if they start in the past and they bring you to the future, and I'm like, Kate Golden: oh my god. Cait: I fucking don't know who anybody is. Court: I hate that. I can't when Cait: Give me a minute. Like Court: you start a second book in the past all of a sudden, it's just like what the like why? Like get such been waiting. Don't do that. Yes. Well I Kate Golden: Yeah, so tough. Don't make me like go back to the manual and try to figure out. No. Anyway, you Cait: So No. No. Come on. Like this Kate Golden: really could Cait: one. Kate Golden: read this trilogy like one big long book if you wanted to. You could just sit down and, you know, jump right in. Court: Which I love. Yes. I probably will. Yes. Cait: Yeah. yes. the best. And then, you know, the first, and again, too, what's really cool is like your setup of the world and the characters was so good in the first one. And we have the spice and everything. And then we pick up in the second. And I was like, there's a lot of plot that happens in the second book. You know, Kate Golden: Yes. Cait: like there's like Court: Yeah. Cait: a lot. But we had done. all the like all the homework had been done in the first one. It didn't even feel like homework. And then we're into the which is amazing. And then this one we're just like in the story and I was so lost in the plot. And I was so like, okay, where is this going? What's happening? I mean, I knew when was like, Yeah, there's this woman who's trapped. I was like, it's his sister or so. I didn't Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: think it was his mom, but I was like, Court: Is mom? Cait: it's not his lover. Can't be. Cause I w again, I was team deacon like the moment he opened his mouth in the second book. Kate Golden: Yeah, it can't be because you're at level 5. Duh. Duh. Court: Yeah, yes. Cait: And you go along, and I I didn't even realize that there was not really like spice happening until it was almost at the end. And I was like, Yes. Kate Golden: or you were enjoying the emotional space. Cait: And the pl and like figuring out how they were gonna deal with this sabraxa on her back and the thing and who was this strange Kate Golden: Yes, she's got issues. Cait: old woman. And then I was so satisfied when it was her grandma. oh my god. Very, very fun. Kate Golden: Yeah, fun, right? Love Court: Yes, very much so. Cait: loved the Kate Golden: it. Cait: whole moment of the reveal with her mom down in like like during the wedding stuff. I'm really excited Kate Golden: Ugh. Cait: to see where you take this third book now, especially with your perspective shifted as a mom. I'm like, okay. Yeah. Kate Golden: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, when I Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: was writing, you know, obviously, like, there's a very strong through line in this series of like self love and self acceptance. And like, that was such a big Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: part of the Deacon versus Reed thing that Reed is just like Viv, and they both feel, you know, less than or or there's so much of themselves that they don't like. And Deacon is sort Cait: Mm. Kate Golden: of the opposite in that he's like, embrace your darkness and your flaws and your shit like I think you're great one Cait: Yeah. I love that. Kate Golden: of his favorite things that he says is he's like how do I like you more than you do like even I think that up because like there's the enemies Court: Yes, I loved that. Cait: Yes! I loved that. Kate Golden: but it's so great and so I'm like okay so you know I think when I first started writing the book I was like Self-acceptance is like even if her mom doesn't ever come to understand her She doesn't need her mom's approval and that is obviously that's true And you know for people that I know for like real humans that can be very true You might have family who doesn't understand you and that doesn't mean that you are not wonderful and worth so much love However, now that I'm a mom I was like, no, no, we got to fix this like her this is Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: her baby like she has to apologize and like build, you know, make repair with her daughter because it's just like too tragic otherwise to think that Court: Yes. Kate Golden: like this girl will grow up thinking her mom like never loved her, understood her. So I sort of, that was like post having oh my baby, book three, you know, working on the story between the mom and the daughter was like very important to me. Court: Yes. I love that. Cait: Yeah. Okay, so and then with the self-acceptance theme of the was Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: there did I read a thing, was there like some of that like that's personal with you, with your writing journeys? Kate Golden: Yes. Cait: Can we t can you tell us a bit more about that? Can you fill that in? Kate Golden: Yeah, totally. So when I was, when I started writing, I worked in a different field. I worked in film and television. I'm like from LA and had grown up sort of in the industry because it's like someone said this one, it's like LA is such a company town. It's just like the instead of the mine or like the plant, Court: Yeah. Kate Golden: it's like Hollywood, you And so I went to school to study film and I started working as a studio executive when I graduated or after being an assistant for many years. Court: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: But then I became a studio Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: executive and really was like, did not love oh my job. It's a really tough business. It's a very cruel business. Court: We're both actors, we know. Yeah. Kate Golden: I'm like incredibly, yeah. Well, I was like, Cait: we know. Yeah. Kate Golden: I knew you're both actors. I just didn't realize you had been on Supernatural for what it's worth. Cait: I was on Supernatural twice. I played two different characters on Supernatural. Court: I gonna say Kate also was on supernatural. oh my Kate Golden: Okay, and then Court: husband was on supernatural. Kate Golden: I was like if I say that and then she says no I wasn't that would be so weird So I didn't say anything Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Kate Golden: but I'm like, okay now I feel like I understand what's going on here Cait: yeah, yeah. Kate Golden: Yeah, Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: so you guys get it. So yeah tough business a lot of really nasty people I'm like incredibly Cait: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kate Golden: sensitive I was like probably in the wrong industry But I love storytelling and it was Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: sort of what oh my you know, oh my parents do it's oh my husband's parents do it's actually how we met parents or friends, whatever so I worked in this business and I was very unhappy doing this thing that felt like the thing I was supposed to be doing and that everyone expected me to do and was tied to oh my family life and oh my friend life. I understand that, you know, sometimes when I explain this and like, wow, this really sounds like champagne problems, like, oh my Hollywood job. But I think Cait: no no no. Kate Golden: anyone can relate to like, I fucking hated oh my job. Yeah, that too. Yeah, it's brutal. It's Court: It's very different. Cait: Not f anyone who knows the industry. I'm I feel you. I feel you. Yeah. Kate Golden: brutal. And it's very cruel. And there was just a lot of so that is so well put. Cait: It's very cruel because there's so much ego. There's too much ego in the industry. And so that's why there's so much cruelness because every Kate Golden: Yes. Cait: single person is like narcissistically taking every single element totally personally. You know, and it's Kate Golden: Yes, totally. Court: Yes. Cait: like it's it's business. Like again, like, you know, it's it's not personal, it's business, but everyone in every tier of the industry is taking it personally and then acting like an asshole. Yeah, no. Kate Golden: Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, it's not like here's oh my art. Yes, it's Court: It's personal. Kate Golden: like you are the person. It's like you are the thing the commodity. And also you Court: Yes. Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: have so many it's a very heartbreaking business because you have just so many people that Cait: yeah. Kate Golden: flock to this city that want to be a part of you know, this world Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: and there's just so much rejection. mean, your first job for a lot of people and it was for me, you know, in this industry is working as an assistant at a talent agency. I that is like where dreams go to die. I worked in motion picture talent Cait: Yeah. It really is. Kate Golden: for like a, you know, fancy talent agent and listened to her all day, just be horrible to people. And it sucked. Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: And then I was in the business for another like 10 years after that. So I was in Cait: oh my god. Kate Golden: this world. And then during the pandemic, the studio I was working at was not making movies because obviously no one was making anything. And I was very creatively unsatisfied. And so I, after having, you know, read like every Romantic Under the Sun during the pandemic, I started writing oh my own. And that's how Dawn of Onyx came to be. So flash forward a little bit, had, you know, I write under a pen name. I was still working oh my day job, but then also kind of writing by night. I had done another contract with Berkeley. So I was like really kind of prolifically, you know, I was like editing one book, writing another book, secretly going on tour, Cait: Amazing. Kate Golden: not telling oh my job that I was doing that. And you Cait: Amazing. Kate Golden: know, doing all oh my like podcasts with like the video not on all this stuff. And I felt just like incredibly overwhelmed and burnt out. And like, I really wanted to just write full time and couldn't bring myself to leave this thing that felt like such a big part of oh my identity. So that was a very long-winded way of getting to when I came up with the story for Half City, I really identified with Viv who was sort of like by day trying to be one thing for everybody else and by night doing this thing that felt more true to who she was, but she carried a lot of like shame around. And it's not that I have any shame about writing romantic or writing, you know, in general, Court: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: but it just felt like failure to me to leave this thing that I had basically told everyone like, this is what I do, this is what I've always done. And to say like, actually, I'm gonna leave this business and go write when like there wasn't a single person in oh my life who was in the book world or the publishing world or really anything other than film and television. I remember like, I would have some kind of really crummy day where I worked all day, know, crazy long hours doing something I really hated and then would come home and write until like 430 in the morning. And then when I would go work on, you know, this outline, I was like, well, I'll just make things worse for Viv because like whatever I'm going through, she's got it worse. And that would like make me Cait: yes. Kate Golden: feel better. It like some kind of backwards therapy. I'm like, if I think I'm Court: I love that I love it. Kate Golden: having our time, this girl's like fighting demons in the street and she's late for this birthday dinner. Like her life's falling apart. I don't know. It like was so cathartic. Cait: Yeah. As it should Court: Yes. Kate Golden: Anyway. Cait: be though too. Like that's the beautiful thing with writing. And you know, and it's and it's yours. And you get to you get to Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: decide and you get to tell the story and be in the story as you go along and work through whatever you're working through and all of that. But that's really cool. Thank you. Kate Golden: Yeah, it was subtle. Cait: Thank you for sharing all of that Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: with us. Cause I I read that little snippet and I was like, this is so interesting to me. I wanna know more. Court: Yeah. Kate Golden: Yes, no and by the way, I was really I used to be I think a lot of shame going on here I used to be sort of ashamed to even share that because it did feel very like privileged to be able to say like oh my hollywood job, whatever But I Cait: Mm. Kate Golden: you know, the book community is like so incredibly warm and supportive Court: Yes. Kate Golden: I had multiple Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: events where I would sort of allude to it and I had at one point like a whole group like crowd of people to q a like Encouraging me to quit oh my job and telling me like you can do it. It was so cathartic actually when I quit oh my job I remember posting like this is for that Portland event that like chanted for me to quit oh my job. Like I did this like for you guys, like you gave Cait: Amazing. Kate Golden: me the strength. And I did, I quit oh my job last October and it's been like the greatest thing ever. And I feel very Cait: Amazing. Yeah. Court: That's amazing. Kate Golden: lucky that I was able to do that. So give credit Court: It's Kate Golden: to the readers. Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: I could never have done it if I didn't have oh my readers. So Court: But also like Kate Golden: I'm very, very, Court: everyone knows that feeling. Like you know what Cait: Amazing. Court: it's like when you're spending your day at a job that you hate. and when you have this other creativity like digging Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Everyone knows that feeling. Court: to get out. And so I think Kate Golden: Yes. Court: it's worth championing and celebrating people that get to do it like you, regardless of what the job is too, because Kate Golden: Yeah. Court: it's something that we all kind of hold on to and hope for and wish for to be able to get to that place to be like. Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Court: And you can't do it without working hard and digging. Like it's not like you just walked away. You worked your as off and made these amazing stories and wrote till 4 30 in the morning and like worked super Kate Golden: Thank you. Cait: Yeah. Court: hard for it. Like it's not like you just got this lottery ticket and you're like, okay, peace. Like you worked your ass off to become the successful Kate Golden: Yeah, very true. Cait: Yeah. Court: writer. So you could leave that job. And that should be celebrated. And that's amazing. And good for you for doing it. Cait: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kate Golden: Yeah. thank you so much. That's very encouraging. Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: Yeah, it was definitely a labor of love writing these books while I worked this job and, you know, trying to find weird hours. I mean, I was always like, it's funny, I would always write at like 430, like three in the morning. I'd either like wake up then to start writing or I would write until then and go to sleep. And now, even though that's not even though I don't have to do that anymore, even when I was like pregnant before I oh my baby, that's now just like when oh my brain is like, this is how you feel good writing. Cait: Your schedule. Yeah. Kate Golden: But I could write at 10 a.m. like a normal person. brain's like, Court: Ha ha ha. Kate Golden: nope, this is the muscle Cait: Nope. Kate Golden: you've developed. So Cait: Yeah. That's Kate Golden: that's what I'm writing. Court: That's amazing. So the midnight then midnight feeds, you're just like, okay, time to write. Kate Golden: Yeah, I like by the way, yeah, I'll wake up to theater like four thirds and like, yes, it's time to crack this, you know, plot hole. Thank you. go. Court: Yeah. Cait: That's fun though. That's cool. Plus it'll serve you well as as your don't as your child grows and everything too because, you know, you gotta squeeze it in. Yeah. Court: You gotta squeeze it in. It's every minute. You're just Kate Golden: Yeah, yeah, totally. I know it's like now Court: like, no. Kate Golden: I still have, once again, I have two jobs again, but Court: Yes. Kate Golden: thankfully these I both really love. it's okay. Yeah. Cait: Yeah, you do. Right? It helps when you love both. Yes, yes. It makes a big Court: It does, but it Cait: difference. it's a full time job. Court: is a job. The motherhood is a full time mental Kate Golden: Yes, it is. Court: job that never ends. Cait: Yeah. Court: So you need these escapes Kate Golden: Yeah. Court: when you get them to break it up because there's no clocking Kate Golden: Yeah. Yes. Court: out. So it's it's and I can't wait to see the impact that has on your third book as you've been talking about. Because I think the way you wrote them and also like bringing that in, James, her l boyfriend that she dates, like I was so I Kate Golden: her shitty boyfriend. Yeah. Cait: Ha ha. Court: loved the scene of Dek scene, but Deacon Andrew got that moment with him of like, I hate that Cait: yeah. Court: guy. I love that moment so Kate Golden: Yes, Court: much. Kate Golden: I love that scene so much. I had to bring him back in the third book too, Cait: Was so satisfying. Kate Golden: because I'm like, you're just so Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: funny for everybody to shit on you. And we all Court: Yes. Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: know he's like an amalgam of like a bunch of people oh my friends have dated. Like you're Court: Yeah. Kate Golden: the worst. Cait: Worst. Kate Golden: Everybody has had one friend data James or they have dated Court: he'd yes, and you know that he's Kate Golden: James. Cait: Yes. Court: wants he'd kind of put up with it just because of who her mom is too. Like you know he'd still keep coming back. It's reasonable that Kate Golden: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: he'd still be like, we can make this work because I want the political gain that this relationship Kate Golden: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, Cait: Yeah. Court: is. Kate Golden: I'm gonna get a lot out of this and I don't really care if you do. let's just write that's how that works. Yeah, he's also hot, unfortunately. Cait: Yeah. Court: But yeah, let's brush this aside. I'm gorgeous. Let's make it work. And I loved Penny. He is hot, Cait: Hello. Court: which it actually makes it better. Because then I'm like, okay, at least like it really does. for her putting up with it. Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: It kind of does. Yeah. Kate Golden: Yeah. Otherwise you're like, Viv, what are you doing? Court: Yes. And Penny, and I love Penny's reaction of like, I'm so glad you're not dating oh my brother. Kate Golden: Love, honey. Court: which Penny was oh my other Cait: Huh? Court: girl's name if I'd had another girl too. So I also Kate Golden: I also love the name Penny. Love the name Penny. Cait: I love Penny. Court: it was oh my yeah, I loved that for her. Cait: I do too. Ours was Aspen, then we would we would call her Penny, you know? Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah. 'Cause Kate Golden: I love that Aspen and that's so cute. oh my God. Yeah. Cait: I'm a big I shorten every name, like oh my which Court: Yes. Cait: I got from oh my mother. So I'm always like, This is your birth certificate, but I'm actually gonna call you. You know like I'm Kate Golden: Yeah, we have a lot of names like that. So do you call? I don't know if you say your children's name. yes. yeah. OK. love, Bex. That's so cute. Yeah. Cait: No, I do, yeah. Beck it, I call Beck's. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Yeah, he's always back. Yeah. Yeah. And so it's really it's Cait: Yeah. Yeah. And I knew that. Court: going but Cait: I was like, what's the short version? Can it be? Like Bex. Bex is cool. Yeah. Kate Golden: Yeah, we had a lot of meetings. Court: Yeah, I always think that through. You need like I was always like I need the name for like if they have a doctor's office and want something like super professional and then the like casual version with like I Kate Golden: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Court: always played through Kate Golden: Well, that's another thing that I love doing in. Court: for boys. Kate Golden: knew that when I wrote this, the before I had always I always sort of knew her name was going to be Vivian and then she would go by Viv. But it was very important to me that Deacon was always going to call her Vivian, because then eventually when he called her Viv, it was going to like hit so hard. But then I love Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: that also he calls Penny Penelope. He's like, I love when Penny is like, actually, I might go by Penny and it's like, don't even. even try. Like he's, he's not gonna call you Penny. Court: Yeah. Which Penny Cait: Just it's not. Court: and Ward. Is it Ward with Penny? I loved that so much. I want so much more of that. I just love Kate Golden: Yeah. Ugh. I love it so much. Cait: yeah. Really loving that. Court: it. Blondie. Is that what he calls it? Am I remembering this right now? Yes. Buttercup, thank you. Buttercup. Ugh so cute those two. And his th like his thing, why is she here? Like, I just loved his protectiveness. Cait: Mm hmm. Yeah. Kate Golden: Yes, buttercup. Yeah, love them. So cute. So cute. Well, it's like I also I just Cait: Yeah. Right. Kate Golden: love the like, you know, the the the guy who doesn't even understand what he's feeling like I think there's a moment where Cait: Yeah. Court: Yes. Kate Golden: he's like worried and she hugs him and Viv is like hug her back you idiot. What are doing? He's like doesn't even Cait: Yes. Court: Yeah. He's so confused. Kate Golden: He's like overwhelmed by these feelings that he has like never experienced before. they're so Cait: Yeah. Court: Yes. Kate Golden: cute. Court: They're so and her first mental breakdown with him, when she's like, Well, this is happening. And he's like, Okay. Kate Golden: I really ship them. Yes. Yes. Of course. Cait: Yeah, I know that was the best. Yeah. Kate Golden: oh my God. So cute. I love them. Yeah, I have them. Court: I do love them. Kate Golden: Well, I guess it will be too late now. But the well, no, because I'll put it on oh my I sometimes will write like bonus scenes when I like ship oh my own characters. And I'm like, I'm gonna I just have something that needs to come out. And I put them all Cait: Yes. Kate Golden: on oh my website and then you can like get the password through oh my newsletter, whatever. They're all there for people to find. Court: Yes. Kate Golden: And so for the UK pre-order incentive that we did through Saucy Books, which is a bookstore in London, they were like, let's do a bonus scene. So when people pre-order, they'll get this bonus scene. And I was like, I'm sure people want Viv and Deacon, but I just want to write about Penny and Ward. So I just wrote a little Cait: Yeah Kate Golden: bonus scene for the two of them. And so that obviously is available if people ordered through the UK, but I will put it eventually on oh my website and people will be able to read it. Court: Right, after the yes, Cait: that's so Court: after it's out. I can't wait. They are, they are Cait: fun. yay. I can't same. They're such Kate Golden: Yeah, because they're just such cuties. Yeah. Cait: cuties. They're so fun. Okay, I want to jump into name again. Name again though, too. Name and Kate Golden: Yes. Cait: romantic comedies. So there was a thing going on here. I was like, wait, Viv, Vivian. And I was like, pretty woman. Is that are we drawing from there? And then Kate Golden: I wish I could say yes, but no, but I do love Pretty Wommie. Obsessed. Cait: I mean I'm obsessed. But then I also Court: yeah. Cait: love that Deacon was like And you know, he's showing her like his like secret room of his thing. And so often in these books it's a library and in this one it's a movie theater. And I was like, and he's a movie buff, which Kate Golden: Yeah. Court: Yes, I did love that. Cait: I feel like hits cause since you were a studio deck and you're an LA like, Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: you know, company Court: Movie back. Cait: town girl. And I was like, Okay, I'm seeing that connection. And then I've just loved all of the like ways that he would refer to things like, yeah, she's gonna and I was like, how to lose a guy in ten days. And I like kept being like, this is that movie, this is that movie. You like wouldn't say the title, but you'd be Kate Golden: Totally, totally, oh my god. Cait: like, This is a plot line. It was very fun as the reader. I really enjoyed that. Court: It was, it was. I Kate Golden: That makes Court: loved that. Kate Golden: me so happy. Well, here's the thing, the irony. Well, I don't know if irony is the word, but like I love movies. I went into Cait: Mm. Kate Golden: film because I love movies. I love TV shows. Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: I love books, like storytelling as a whole. And unfortunately, like working in the business, like really kind of killed movies for me for a while. Like oh my husband Cait: Mm. Kate Golden: who loves movies would be like, let's go see a movie. And for truly like six or seven years, like I did not go see movies in theaters because you would go and Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: you'd be like, why didn't I read this spec script? Or like, had I called that agent or like Cait: Yeah. Court: Right. Kate Golden: that? or was a jerk to me and whatever. So you would just kind Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: of feel like, it's killed. felt like work. And so Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: it was also very cathartic in writing this story to be like, okay, I'm gonna write a character that like loves movies the way I used to love movies before it was oh my job. Because it's like Cait: Mm. Yeah. Kate Golden: amazing storytelling. And like I have, you know, movies that are nostalgic that have changed oh my life, whatever. So it was so fun to like write in oh my little like Andy Anderson nod or like, you know, the how he's the guy in 10 Cait: Totally. Kate Golden: days. I love that. And now I'm happy to report since quitting oh my job, we go see movies all the time. And I'm like, is this Court: Yeah. Cait: Yay. Kate Golden: what it feels like to go see a movie and just enjoy it as like a patron? It was, yeah, it's been a very healthy, Cait: Yeah. Yeah. Right? Kate Golden: healthy new development. Yes, for sure. Cait: Amazing. I love that. So is that French film the one that he was obsessed with? Is it not a real movie? I should have Googled it, but Court: Mm, yeah. Kate Golden: It is not a real movie. was like, if I'm Cait: okay. Kate Golden: going to bring this up so many times, I pro and I'm going to say like Deacon has said, this is the best movie of all time. I didn't want to pick Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: something that was real and have readers be like, but I hated that movie. It's like now I'm put off, you know, whatever. But Court: There. Mm-hmm. Cait: Fair. Kate Golden: it's kind of like a mush of like a handful of like great, like old French, like a dark, like 1960s films or Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: like movies that I saw in like, you know, international film classes that are, you know, devastating and heartbreaking and just like stick with you. It's like a mush. It's a mush of things. Cait: Yeah. Okay. I was wondering, because I mean, having seen like a bunch of those, you know, films and everything myself, I was like, Kate Golden: Yeah, the ones that are kind of like referenced. Cait: I I kept thinking the I was like, as you were describing that movie, I was like, I haven't seen this one. And I was like, gosh, I gotta look it up. I should watch it. I wonder. You know, and then I was like, when I'm in Kate Golden: You're like, you click Google? Ugh. Court: Yeah, I meant to look it up too. Cait: the mood for a classic, I'll, you know, I'll check that one out. Yeah. Kate Golden: Yeah, when I want to cry. Yeah, sorry, not real. Court: Yeah. Cait: Okay. All right. Court: No, but I think that's smart Kate Golden: Tragically. Court: because I think you're right. I think it's it has if you do make it something real, then you have that natural backlash that can come when someone disagrees. So I think Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: Yeah, like Court: that was a good angle in it. Yeah. Kate Golden: had I been like, it's Casablanca. Someone might have been like, Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: that reminds me of oh my uncle and I hate him and I hate this character now. And you're like, shoot. So Cait: Right. Kate Golden: I was like, I'm just gonna, you know, whatever, Court: Yeah. Kate Golden: make it something that no one can actually have any personal connection to. Cait: Right. And then, okay, so the self and then I love the way that Deacon again, you already said it, but when he's like, How do I love you more than you do? You know, like that hit. That hit that moment. I think because everyone has issues with like shame and self-acceptance and all of that Kate Golden: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: stuff, right? and there was just something. So freeing about yes, he's totally immoral. He's not even morally gray, all that, but there's something Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: really fucking freeing about that. And her starting to be like, but I do like killing. You know what I mean? I do like and just like embracing Court: Yes. Cait: and not as she's and he encourages her, just like just do, just like let your freak fly fly. Be be you. Like, let's Court: Mm. Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: first get you to being you and then. Kate Golden: Yes. Cait: Worry about where we need to maybe like be socialized, you know, like instead of being overly socialized. So I'm excited Kate Golden: Yeah, I love the way you put that. Yes, 100%. Yeah. Court: Right. Yes. Cait: to see what happens now in book three, because they're in hell and she's a demon. And I'm Kate Golden: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cait: like, Court: Yes, that whole change, like it took oh my brain as I reread it, I think like three times of like, wait, what? And like going Kate Golden: yeah. I know. Court: back and like, oh my gosh, what is this gonna mean? What is that gonna look like? What did he are they like I just Cait: I know. And also, they haven't kissed, but he gave her the demon kiss. And I'm like, so he took her Kate Golden: Yeah, it took our soul. That's like Cait: soul, but they're Court: Yes. Cait: but also like they're not mated. You know what I mean? Like this isn't that kind of thing. They like, but it's like Kate Golden: No, they're not even, yeah. Court: They're not anything. And then he followed her, which he also didn't have to. Like all of that goes through oh my head. Cause I Kate Golden: Yeah, correct. Court: was like, what is he putting into at first I thought he was giving her some kind of essay? I don't know. I didn't think. And then I'm like, wait, right. Of course. This is what we've like Cait: Tim? Court: understood for this whole book. But I was just so Cait: Yes. Court: like caught up in it. And Peter, Peter had just gone in. Kate Golden: I know. Cait: I'm very sad about Peter. Court: I was emotionally a wreck at that moment. So it took me a second to process what was happening. And then Kate Golden: Yeah. You and everybody, Cait: Ha ha Kate Golden: everybody was processing this processing deacons processing. Everyone's like, wait, what the fuck is going on? Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Court: And then I was just like, oh my gosh. And then I'm like, oh my God, this is just coming out. Now I have to wait. Kate Golden: You Court: that was like oh my Cait: Right? Court: emotional roller coaster of that book, which also, like, one Cait: Yes. Court: thing I didn't expect. I just want to make between the two books a big twist I didn't expect was the sister's wife being the teacher and being her boss. I did not see that. Yes, Fiona Lissette, I did not see coming. Kate Golden: Yeah. Yeah, the Fiona Lisette thing is so funny. Cait: Yeah. Fiona that was fun. I didn't Kate Golden: love that. Well, that was the kind of thing Cait: see it coming either. Kate Golden: where I was like when I was writing the first book, I was really this is okay. This is the fun thing about writing because you just like make all your own rules because I was like, I love Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: this character that is the teacher. She's kind of like, like, you know, seems like a hard ass but is really looking out for the kids, whatever. But then I also really love this like kind of cute, like big glasses wearing sweet but like very intelligent museum curator and they're both kind of maternal figures. and it's kind of a hat on a hat. Like you don't need both of them, but I don't want to give them up. And then I was like, you know what? I'm a writer. It's up to me. They're the same person. There you go. It's a magic world. Like you can like do whatever you want to do. Court: solved like how is she actually getting away with all these lies. It actually fully Kate Golden: Totally. That's, yeah. Court: solved that 'cause there was a part I'm like, well wouldn't her sister know from the like there'd be a cross communication. So it made sense that way too. Kate Golden: Yes. Well, that's the great thing. It's like one of the Cait: Mm. Kate Golden: most amazing things about writing that I discovered and actually a much more successful like big world building author was the person who said this to me very early in oh my writing career. She was like, if you are really putting time and effort into crafting your characters in your world, you will find that actually like plot holes answer themselves because like you've built a groundwork that exists and I kind of didn't know it meant until things like that happen where like at one point in outlining I had the same thought where I'm like, this is too convenient. Like how is she working in Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: the museum? The museum happens to be there at school is the you know, people don't seem to notice that she's you know, missing this and showing up for that. This is going to feel like convenient to readers. Court: Yeah. Kate Golden: How do I answer this? And then I was like, wait, if Fiona and Lysette are the same person, like the lore actually already existed. And I as the author just had to like Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: look a little closer. That happens all Court: That's amazing. Kate Golden: the time where I'm like, wait, I have Cait: Yeah, nice. Kate Golden: a plot hole. And if I go back and reread something from the first book, I'm like, it had solved itself just from the world. It's a very cool thing when that happens. Yeah, it's awesome and very relieving. And then sometimes that doesn't happen Court: That's amazing. Cait: Yeah, that's so cool. Yeah Kate Golden: and you have to work for like hours and hours and weeks and weeks and months and months to fix something. So, you know, it's a graph show. You know, it's you win some, lose some. Cait: Yeah. Court: There's those. But it's still like Cait: Yeah. Court: how Kate Golden: Yeah. Court: how your first books were were independently published and then you went and got traditionally published, right? Kate Golden: The first book was independently published, yes, but then after being out for I think like a month or so, it was preempted by oh my current publisher, Berklee. So Court: Okay. Kate Golden: then it got taken off of Amazon and like Kindle Unlimited and then they kind of redid the cover and then we traditionally published it, think like, whatever, that was February, it's like October of that year. This was 2023, I wanna say. and then the rest of the series was traditionally published. So only that first one was indie published Court: Okay. Kate Golden: for like a month. Court: Did you have to like catch up to the timelines that that created? Kate Golden: Yes, a little well, yeah, because I guess when I published it you mean like with the rest of the books coming out Court: Yeah, like when you can kinda publish on your own timeline with indie and it's up to and then all of a sudden you're like, Okay, now I have this deadline and I have this to owe and this thing. Kate Golden: Yes. Court: Yeah. Kate Golden: If anything, actually, because like I'm, don't know, very type A and like overzealous, I was like, I'm gonna publish these every six months because like, I know what it felt like as a reader to wait for a book forever Cait: yeah. Kate Golden: and to be frustrated by that. So by the time I released A Dawn of Onyx, I was working on the second one, A Promise of Peridot, and I had planned to release it six months after. So that would have been around June. And then I actually felt really terrible. telling oh my readers like, it's not gonna come out till next April because now it's on this traditional publishing schedule. So I actually felt like the harder thing was slowing down, not like now Court: Okay. Cait: Mm. Kate Golden: beholden to deadlines, but I was very lucky that Berkeley was willing to still do six months every book, just so like it republished the first one in October and then it came out April and then the next next October. So it actually ended up all shing out and these books. Feel like we can all do the mental math of like the time between half city and curse city. It's like probably the same amount of time between curse city and the third one. So they're not too long in between all the bucks. Court: Okay, that makes me feel a bit better. But I was like, Yes, when is the third one coming out? Kate Golden: Everyone's like quickly going to the calendar. Cait: Yeah, same. We're like, Kate Golden: Yeah. It's not too Court: that's what we want to know, because we're hanging on a cliff. Cait: We we need to know how we're gonna run the gauntlet. How are we getting out of hell? And you also have promised us a lot of spice. Yeah. And you've promised us a lot of spice and we're definitely ready for that. I mean, now we get to have demon Kate Golden: long. It's not too long. Yeah. How are we getting out of hell? Such a good question. Yeah. Where's the spice? This girl's a demon. What are we going to do about that? That was the other thing too. Court: Yeah. Cait: demon sex and I'm really excited for Court: Yes. Also that. We don't even know what the other version. Yeah. Kate Golden: It's who knows, but it's looking that way. Yeah. Cait: Vem? Vem? Kate Golden: I was going to say also, it's like to your point about sort of like her becoming demon and like things escalating and the self acceptance thing. Like I was like, OK, this is a series about somebody who really starts the book with all the self loathing and is going to end the series like having really come to love herself. And then by the time I finished writing book two, I was like, I think she really likes herself. She's met this guy. She's come to understand. Like, how do I where do I build from here? So like, well, now she's gotta, we gotta up the stakes. Like now she's Court: Yeah. Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: a demon. So we're gonna have all kinds of new problems to deal with. Like Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: again, you're like, I just get to make the rules. I'm just gonna give this girl more problems. Am I Court: Yeah. Yeah. Kate Golden: like a sadist? I don't know. I hope not. Court: No, I think it's exactly what we want, what we're all craving. And you also solved the dilemma. Honestly, I have to say with the Angel Buffy Spike thing, I think if Spike no offense to James Marson, but if Spike had been hotter, I might have been more on board on that ship. And you solved that Kate Golden: You know, you're not alone. Cait: oh my god, you said it! You said it. I was thinking it and I was like, maybe I won't say it, but it's true. Kate Golden: You're not alone. That's a fair. That is a fair. Court: Yeah. Kate Golden: Look, it's hard to be David Boreans. He's like. Court: Right, and the height and the build. And I think you did that with Deacon, so I think we solved that angel problem that everyone's had. So Cait: Yeah. Yeah. We solved it. We solved it. We solved it. Kate Golden: We solved it. I'm happy to help. Happy to take one with the team. Cait: We solved it. I mean you guys like when Deacon's working out in the middle of the night, she's got her eyes on him. Stop. Kate Golden: oh my God, with the table. Come Court: Just lifting up a table like just Yes. Kate Golden: on. Yeah. You know Cait: You know. Kate Golden: what, by the way, I hope this isn't like too much of a peek behind the curtain, but I stole that from the Incredibles. Cause I remember that I thought it was Court: Yes. Kate Golden: very hot that Mr. Incredible like works out with the trains. Do you remember that? I'm like, he's too strong Cait: Yes, of course! Kate Golden: for weightlifting. So was like, what's oh my version of that? Cause there's no way Deacon gets any, any like strength training from lifting a dumbbell. Like he needs a stone Court: Yeah, exactly. Cait: Now Kate Golden: dining table. Cait: Yes. Court: I love that so Kate Golden: Yeah, Court: much. And I also Kate Golden: these are the things we get inspiration from. Court: that scene where we did because of spice that's not really in this book, as we've said, this book Cait: Mm-hmm. Court: is probably like a two pumpkin on our spice meter Kate. If we were talking. It's like it's a two. It's a two. What's more what's in Cait: Yeah. Yep. Yep. Agreed. Agreed. It's a two. Can you believe that? oh my God. I can't believe it. Yeah. Kate Golden: Sure. Crazy. Court: the book. But that scene when she has to tell him she finds him attractive, when that's like the payment and his thing after, was any of it true? Like that. Part there was just so like it just Kate Golden: I would die for them. I'm obsessed with them. I love it. Cait: Yeah. Uh-huh. Obsessed. Court: yeah, yeah, it was so good. Kate Golden: It's so fun to see him falter. Yeah. Cait: And I could just keep seeing him. Ugh what? Court: Yes. Kate Golden: Well, I was gonna say it's like Cait: He's like Kate Golden: so fun to see him like he's so in command all the time and he has this like swagger Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: and this charisma. So when there are moments where he's kind of like she trips him up a little bit, it's like so endlessly satisfying at least to me as you know, the writer. Cait: It's so good. Yeah. Court: I love it. Like if Kate you threw in as a bonus thing for book three a POV from Deacon, I wouldn't be mad. I'm just saying. I'm just like just throwing that out there if we got a little Cait: Yeah. Court: insight to his mind in those moments. Kate Golden: Well, I will say this. So the Fairy Loot edition of Half City came with a bonus scene and it was the first time they ever meet from Deacon's POV. And that is on oh my website. And it is one Court: Okay, I have to go find it. Kate Golden: of oh my favorite like little like snippet things because like, oh my God, he was down bad from the beginning. Court: So okay, Kate Golden: Down bad but also like wanted to kill her. It's confusing for him. It's confusing for him. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Court: I'm gonna I'm immediately going to read it. yes. It was hard. He's he's morally black. It's like, you know, you gotta Cait: Right? Black. It's just bad. Is there something that's Kate Golden: He's morally like way over. Yeah, he is. lost him. He's gone. But but he like, yeah. Cait: it's so fun though, getting to read these books and like be in this fantasy world and like root for and totally fall in love with the bad guy? Cause you can't in real life. Like you actually fuck Court: Yes. Yeah. Kate Golden: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: your life up if you do that in real life. You know what I mean? Like really badly. So we've all we we learned, yeah, that Court: Yeah, we we've learned that lesson. Yes. Kate Golden: Correct. Cait: it's a no, it's an it's a hard no. God, I really love living out that fantasy, reading a book. So thank you. Yeah. Court: Yeah. Yeah. Kate Golden: Yeah, you and me both. Yeah. I mean, the thing is also like he is I think that what was so fun, like for for me when I wrote oh my first series, I was like very much coming off of the Akatara hangover. That was like it really was honestly Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: like a version of just Sarah Mass in general fan fiction. I just loved that everything I had read of her so much that when I Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: started writing, never thinking I was going to publish this, I was just like, I just want to write oh my own version of this because I loved it so much. And Cait: Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: they're, you know, the, the RySand thing is, I know it's re-sand, it's RySand to me. I read it in oh my head that way. I'll never be able to change it. Court: I know we all talk about that. Cait: Listen, Court: What it is in your head is their name. That's our rule. Cait: the moment you read it, whatever, it sticks. Yeah. You Kate Golden: Yeah, it has to stick. Cait: decide the pronunciation, and that's the pronunciation. And that's Court: Yes. Kate Golden: You're right. Cait: it for the rest of the series. And Court and I have even like had conversations on here. She's like, I pronounce it this way. And I'm like, I pronounced it this way. And we're like, cool, you have yours, I have mine. We're both everyone's right. Yeah. No. Mm-hmm. Kate Golden: You're both right. Yeah. No one's wrong. Yeah, exactly. He exists in your imagination. Court: I don't need to know I don't need to know the right way, honestly. I'm good. It's in oh my head. Kate Golden: But when I was writing, Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: when I was writing Donavonix, I was like, I loved so much that, that Ry Sand was like, you think he's this big scary guy and then you peel back the curtain and he's like the most lovely, conscientious, thoughtful, selfless, optimistic Court: Yes. Kate Golden: guy. And you're like, Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: but you look like a monster, but inside you're like as good as a human man can be. And so when I wrote a Donavonix, I was like, That's the archetype. That's what I love. He seems big and scary, but as soon as you meet him, like actually deep down, he's all these wonderful things. By the time I had written a whole trilogy of that main character, I was like, I want to write someone so evil, so fucked up. Look Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: inside and it's worse than you thought it was gonna be. Like I was just Court: Yes, yes. Cait: Ha ha ha! Kate Golden: so excited about that. And I was like, and then we make that the law of interest. Like how, how can we Cait: Yeah. Kate Golden: do that? It was such a fun, like almost creative writing challenge. And then I felt really in love with him. So, know, what can you do? Cait: Right. Court: Love that so much. That was very I it happened to me Cait: That's cool. Court: when I read Fourth Wing, and I was so upset. And I read it so early on that I was stuck on that cliff forever. and obsessed. And so Kate Golden: Ugh, painful. Court: I that was oh my first version of that. I just wrote oh my own Van Vic of like, this is how I hope this goes, just so I could like get it out of oh my head. Cause I was just like needing to be fed, and I was like, I just need to know Kate Golden: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Cait: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Court: something that happens with them. So I totally get that from the Sarah J masked one, too: of like, what is this? Where's this going? Yeah. Kate Golden: It's such a cathartic feeling. Yeah. How do I, how do I get this out of me? Yeah, totally. Cait: Ugh, so fun. I love that though. I love that. I love how like it makes it draws out like more creativity and creates more. I think it's so cool. That's so cool. Kate, this has been so awesome Court: Yeah, yes. Cait: talking to you about these books. Kate Golden: So awesome. So fun. Cait: We're so thrilled that you pivoted away and became a writer instead of a studio exec because thank you for these books. I now am like, I need to go read Donovan's. Court: Yes. We're all benefiting. Kate Golden: Me too. Me too, Cait: Like I also am a huge actar fan. So I'm like, I no, nothing. Nothing is spoiled. Court: Yes. Such a good series. No no. So good. Kate Golden: I hope I didn't spoil anything for you. Cait: I just want to go and get all the details. You know? Like I like I Court: Yes. Cait: need more. Yeah. Yeah. Kate Golden: I'm so excited for you. I love those characters so much too, so I hope you enjoy it. Cait: Amazing. All right. Court: Yes. Cait: Well, Cursed City, Half City. Also, I feel like cause this is dropping in October. This is the time to read these books. Like it's so like, Court: Yes. Cait: not that you need a season for romantic ever, but I just read these and I'm like, oof, it's so nice to read it right on time. Kate Golden: No, but it's spooky season, it's fall. They literally have a bar that is like around the year Halloween themes that they go to. It's like. Court: Yes, it's perfect this time of year. Cait: Yeah. Court: But also your covers are Cait: Come on. Court: such a pivot this time like the look of them compared Kate Golden: Yeah. Court: to like the traditional romantic scene. I just wanted that quick question, like, is that a style thing that is also feels like it's trending that way in a series, or is that just like a taste thing that you had with like Kate Golden: I honestly all credit Court: your artists? Kate Golden: due to oh my, like the art director at Berkeley who designs the covers, they were like, let's do something totally different, honestly, so more readers would have the experience that you had court of like, picking up the book and not even knowing it was the same, like really just a big separation to Cait: Mm. Kate Golden: be like, this is Court: Okay. Kate Golden: urban fantasy and that was romance. And like, this is a whole Cait: Qual Kate Golden: new world, a whole new thing. I think we really just wanted it to feel different from the first series and whatever I write next, I think we'll make another, we'll just like keep pivoting. it really feels clear that everything I write is its own little kind of like microcosm. But that was all, that's all Berkeley. I'm just along for the ride. I'm like, whatever you guys think, and then they give me the most beautiful Court: Okay. Kate Golden: covers, and I'm like, incredible, what have I done to deserve this? So yeah, that's all that. Court: Amazing. Cait: I love that. Okay. Very cool. Court: Yeah. Yeah. Cait: All right. Well, that is Kate Golden: Yeah. Cait: all the time we have for today. We could talk forever and ever. It was awesome. Kate Golden: This was so great. I know. I'm so Court: I know. Kate Golden: grateful that you guys had me on. This was so much fun and thank you for all the like incredibly kind things you said about oh my books. I'm like gonna be writing this high all day long. Court: Ugh. We're going to your website. We're reading it. We'll talk to you in six months when the third book, six to eight months, when Cait: Yay! Woo! Yeah, we are. Yeah. Kate Golden: Yes. Court: the third book comes out, we'll dive back into it again and continue it up. Kate Golden: Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly. I can't wait. yeah, it would be Cait: Mm-hmm. oh my gosh, Kate Golden: fun to come back and be Cait: same. Kate Golden: able to wrap it all up. Court: A hundred percent. Cait: oh my gosh, absolutely. Okay, we're scheduling. We're penciling it in. All right, Kate Golden, Kate Golden: Amazing. Yes. Court: Yes. Cait: Cursed City, Half City, you gotta read it. Thank you so much for Court: Mm-hmm. Cait: joining us. Kate Golden: Thank you guys. Cait: That is it for today's episode of Kate and Court's Cozy Court: Yeah. Cait: Corner. Bye. Kate Golden: See you guys later. Caitlin Stryker: You know the drill. Be sure to like and subscribe wherever you listen to our podcast. Courtney: Thanks for tuning in to Cait and Court's Cozy Corner Romance Readers. Caitlin Stryker: Executive producers and hosts, Caitlin Stryker and Courtney Richter, Producers, Canasia Ngo and Hollie Lobosky. Original music, Cassie De Silva.