Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Shocking! Serial killers marry, conceive children behind bars.

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Shocking! Serial killers marry, conceive children behind bars. · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: for letting our listeners listen for free and for being
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Speaker 1: our partner. Done cold killers, many of them serial killers,
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Speaker 1: Lee Boyd, Malvo, Ted Bundy, Yourned Vander Salute, the Evil
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Speaker 1: Menendez Brothers, Richard Ramrez remember the night Stalker. They're all married,
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Speaker 1: they got married. Behind bars Crime Stories with Nancy Greece
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Speaker 1: ten dead bodies that we know of. I remember being
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Speaker 1: in DC at the time of the DCS sniper scare,
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Speaker 1: the whole metro area living in fear. Who would be
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Speaker 1: gunned down next? At the airport, going to home depot,
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Speaker 1: in the parking lot of the grocery store, on the street,
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Speaker 1: in your yard, Who would be next? The sniping murders
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Speaker 1: were calculated but seemingly random. No one knew who would
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Speaker 1: be shot down dead next, mothers, brothers, fathers, sons, daughters
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Speaker 1: dead but at the hands of film. Well, now we know,
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Speaker 1: and the very latest, the d C sniper is enjoying
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Speaker 1: wedded bliss behind bars. I mean, is he grace? This
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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
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Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and series six seven one eleven. Let's
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Speaker 1: go straight out to ABC News correspondent Barry Seraphin. Shooting
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Speaker 1: started yesterday at five twenty pm, a bullet went through
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Speaker 1: a window of this store, narrowly missing a clerk inside.
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Speaker 1: It was the only miss. At six h four pm,
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Speaker 1: a middle aged white man was killed outside of the
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Speaker 1: supermarket this morning. The murders resumed at seven forty one am,
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Speaker 1: another white man mowing his lawn at eight twelve am,
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Speaker 1: an Indian man gassing up his cab. Minutes later at
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Speaker 1: eight thirty seven, and Hispanic woman sitting reading a book
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Speaker 1: on a bench outside of a restaurant. The young lady
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Speaker 1: that just saying about five minutes or ten minutes ago
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Speaker 1: off the bus was laying right then. It was just terrible.
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Speaker 1: Just over an hour later, at nine fifty eight am,
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Speaker 1: another single bullet, another victim, a woman cleaning her car
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Speaker 1: at a gas station. Altogether six shots, five apparently random victims,
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Speaker 1: within sixteen hours. Police are stopped. Nothing like this has
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Speaker 1: ever happened in Montgomery County. This is a very safe community.
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Speaker 1: Al homicide rate just increased by one day. A DC
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Speaker 1: sniper married behind bars. What's next? A family a ranch?
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Speaker 1: I don't get it. I can just see a ranch
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Speaker 1: style home in the DC suburbs. How is this happening?
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Speaker 1: You may wonder why did Barry seraph and keep pointing
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Speaker 1: out the race and the sex of the victims. I'll
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Speaker 1: tell you why, because typically a serial killer kills within
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Speaker 1: their own race. With me an all star panel to
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Speaker 1: break it down and put it back together again. First
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Speaker 1: of all, renowned defense attorney, former prosecutor in the Atlanta jurisdiction,
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Speaker 1: but all across the country. Daryl Cohen, Bruce Johnson, owner
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Speaker 1: ESP Investigations, former sergeant Chicago Metro. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon.
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Speaker 1: Psychoanalyst to the stars, Doctor Bethany Marshall joining us from
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Speaker 1: Beverly Hills. You can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall
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Speaker 1: dot com and Leavipage Crime online dot com. Investigative reporter.
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Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear all the wedding details from
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Speaker 1: DC Sniper to Ted Bundy to the Menendez brothers. They're
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Speaker 1: getting married and even having children from behind bars. But
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Speaker 1: back to the crime. Why is it to doctor Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst,
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Speaker 1: joining me out of Beverly Hills. Why is it that
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Speaker 1: serial killers, particularly and very often killers, murder within their
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Speaker 1: own race. Why is that? I think because they statishize
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Speaker 1: the victims from very early in life, meaning that the
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Speaker 1: preoccupation to kill begins to be fixated on a certain
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Speaker 1: some type. Well, that starts so early in life. That's
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Speaker 1: going to start within their own socioeconomic, ethnic, racial group.
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Speaker 1: It doesn't change over time. And that's why the DC
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Speaker 1: snipers were so unusual because they went outside that small
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Speaker 1: group in which they were raised. But remember they also
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Speaker 1: were from another country, right, so they came here from
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Speaker 1: another country and they couldn't stick within that specific group
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Speaker 1: because they were immigrants and they were sort of like
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Speaker 1: they were more like a thrill kill three killers, so
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Speaker 1: they just aimed and shot at everyone. You know, that's
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Speaker 1: a really good point that they had immigrated sometime back,
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Speaker 1: and had they had immigrated and then integrated within their community.
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Speaker 1: And you heard them say, this white male was cutting
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Speaker 1: his grass, this Hispanic lady was just sitting there reading
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Speaker 1: a book outdoors. It went on and on and on,
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Speaker 1: and that's typically is it not, dude just just got
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Speaker 1: more Again. One of the ways that criminologist and prosecutors
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Speaker 1: like myself and others profile the killer, and that's a
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Speaker 1: very important Like, for instance, in this case, I can
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Speaker 1: tell you day one it was a man, but because
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Speaker 1: of the mixture of gender and races, it was very
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Speaker 1: hard to pinpoint the profile of a suspect. Joe Scott. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: it is very difficult. And I even remember back in
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Speaker 1: tom when Chief Moose if you remember that name. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: he held a press conference at one point in time
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Speaker 1: and said that they were specifically looking for a white
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Speaker 1: male driving a white panel then, and he made some
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Speaker 1: very tad about any number of crimes though, right, Joe Scott,
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Speaker 1: it's always a freaky white male and a white van. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And do you realize and I know that you do.
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Speaker 1: The times I've been to DC, I think about that,
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Speaker 1: and I think about all the white panel vans that
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Speaker 1: are everywhere. It created an absolute nightmare for our friends
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Speaker 1: in Virginia, Maryland and the DC area because they were
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Speaker 1: going around stopping these vans, trying to determine who on them,
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Speaker 1: what their purpose was out there. People were in utter terror.
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Speaker 1: I remember, and Daryl Cohen, living in New York, I
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Speaker 1: would travel to DC, believe it or not, almost every
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Speaker 1: weekday as soon as I got off Court TV. Because
8:27
Speaker 1: little known fact, most of Larry King's sarry was typically
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Speaker 1: in California. He had a skeleton crew in New York,
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Speaker 1: but the bulk of his staff was in DC. So
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Speaker 1: when I would guest host for Larry. I would fly
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Speaker 1: every day. I remember trying to get to the airport
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Speaker 1: after I got off Court TV, get to LaGuardia and
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Speaker 1: get to DC and I would step out of that
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Speaker 1: airport and look around and think, Oh, dear Lord in heaven.
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Speaker 1: During the sniper crisis, here's my question to you, Daryl
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Speaker 1: Coe and former prosecutor now defense attorney. Have you ever
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Speaker 1: had a serial killer that you prosecuted or defended that
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Speaker 1: killed outside their race. I don't mean a one off,
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Speaker 1: one murder. I mean somebody. Yes. I don't need a shrink, sorry,
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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany or let me say, a profiler to tell
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Speaker 1: me that, because I just know it because of all
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Speaker 1: the cases we've handled. No, Nancy, I haven't. And let
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Speaker 1: me say this. I think profilers are wonderful, and you
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Speaker 1: guys do a great yar but you need eyewitnesses, you
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Speaker 1: need snitches, you need all sorts of people to help
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Speaker 1: you locate and arrest the killer. And that's really primary,
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Speaker 1: regardless of anything else, because as long as he is
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Speaker 1: out there and shooting randomly, and at the time everyone
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Speaker 1: thought it was random. Had a friend that worked for
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Speaker 1: TV station. She was petrified, petrified, and so no I've
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Speaker 1: never seen other than him someone what appeared to be
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Speaker 1: random because they all use their own race because they
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Speaker 1: for whatever reason. I don't know why. I just know
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Speaker 1: that it's true. I don't really understand exactly how the
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Speaker 1: phone or the TV or the wireless works, but I
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Speaker 1: know that it works. Just like I know serial killers
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Speaker 1: and very often serial rapists. But typically serial killers kill
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Speaker 1: within their owner. That's not even the bottleshell. The bottleshell
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Speaker 1: is this guy is now married, what are they planning
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Speaker 1: a family? But more insight into who the DC sniper
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Speaker 1: is take a listen again to ABC's Barry Seraphin. Law
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Speaker 1: enforcement sources say the weapon was a high power rifle
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Speaker 1: fired in some cases at least from a distance. We
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Speaker 1: feel like we probably have a skill shooter, and that
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Speaker 1: does heighten our concern. Police have had little to go on,
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Speaker 1: only one witness's description of two people in a white
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Speaker 1: truck speeding away from one murder scene. Police are stopping
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Speaker 1: white trucks and vans but have not found any suspects.
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Speaker 1: That has made the community nervous. One hundred forty thousand
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Speaker 1: school children in Montgomery County were kept indoors through the
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Speaker 1: day and police were on hand when schools let out.
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Speaker 1: The massive man hunt continues, but Peter police admit they
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Speaker 1: don't know who are, what they're dealing with, or what
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Speaker 1: they're motive might be. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. Take
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Speaker 1: a listen to our friend Tim Williams at thirteen w
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Speaker 1: j Z, the man serving a life sentence in prison
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Speaker 1: for his role in the two thousand who Snipers Free
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Speaker 1: that terrorized Washington, DC, is now a married man. Officials
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Speaker 1: confirmed Lee Boyd Malvo married a woman earlier this month
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Speaker 1: at red Onion State Prison in Virginia. The bride has
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Speaker 1: not been identified. Rules in Virginia regulate inmate weddings. Witnesses
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Speaker 1: and guests are restricted to a maximum of six and
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Speaker 1: refreshments must be from the prison vending machines. Boo, who
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Speaker 1: why they have to get their refreshments from the vending machine?
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Speaker 1: Why are they allowed to get married? Levi page Climb
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Speaker 1: Online investigative reporter Levi how many people did the DC
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Speaker 1: sniper's kill but Nancy? He killed ten people. There were
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Speaker 1: two of them, and they injured three people and Nancy
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Speaker 1: even an FBI agent was killed. An FBI agent was
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Speaker 1: killed near their home in Falls Church Virginia. So there
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Speaker 1: were all sorts of people killed. One woman was killed
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Speaker 1: loading groceries into her van, another one was killed walking
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Speaker 1: across a parking lot. A man was killed outside of
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Speaker 1: a steakhouse. And this went on for about a month
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Speaker 1: from October second until October twenty fourth. In twenty two
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Speaker 1: thousand and two, when Mohammed and Malvo were arrested. You
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Speaker 1: just start to memory with me. I'm a lot of
13:27
Speaker 1: you remember my dad Mac, and he worked for the railroad,
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Speaker 1: and he would do all tricks and so what he
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Speaker 1: called him. Sometimes he'd be on the night shift. Sometimes
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Speaker 1: he'd be early morning shift. But one night, two nights
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Speaker 1: a week, he would be gone till seven or eight
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Speaker 1: o'clock in the morning, and my mother and my sister
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Speaker 1: Jennie and I Big Deal would go to ponder rosa steakhouse.
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Speaker 1: Do you remember those, Jackie, And you could get okay,
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Speaker 1: just go with me a bilet, a salad and baked
13:59
Speaker 1: tato for I think it was five ninety nine. Woo okay.
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Speaker 1: So we would do that when my dad was gone,
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Speaker 1: and it was a steakhouse, and the three of us
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Speaker 1: would just walk out to our car, thinking nothing of it,
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Speaker 1: and go back home. I'm just thinking about this guy
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Speaker 1: walking out of a steakhouse and the one woman sitting
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Speaker 1: outside reading a book just gunned down for no with
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Speaker 1: no rhyme or reason. And now this guy is married
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Speaker 1: behind bars and to our leavi page climb online dot
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Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter, the woman the DC sniper marries is
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Speaker 1: a wealthy quote trust fund baby, an activist who has
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Speaker 1: to Bernie Sanders. Now what I don't care about Bernie
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Speaker 1: Sanders or Biden or a Trump. To me, they're all lying.
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Speaker 1: I hate to tell you that it's true. They're all lying.
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Speaker 1: You're just gonna have to hold your nerves and get
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Speaker 1: in the voting booth and pick somebody who is the
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Speaker 1: least disturbing. So it's not about Sanders, It's not about politics.
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Speaker 1: What I'm saying is, this is a woman who married
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Speaker 1: Lee Boyd Malvo, the DC Sniper, and she's clearly had
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Speaker 1: every advantage money, well education could buy her. What is
15:29
Speaker 1: wrong with her? Dodger Bethany Marshall. You know, Nancy, I'm
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Speaker 1: going to quote my favorite researcher, Read Malloy once again,
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Speaker 1: because he has a whole chapter in his book Violent
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Speaker 1: Attachments that addresses this issue of women who fall in
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Speaker 1: love with men behind you say read Malloy R E D.
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Speaker 1: Malloy m E l O y he I'll send you
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Speaker 1: his book as violent Attachments. It's four different violent attachment
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Speaker 1: styles between women and the perpetrators, and one is women
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Speaker 1: who fall in love with men behind bars and his theory.
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Speaker 1: He has a couple. One is their refusal to put
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Speaker 1: their thoughts together about the nature of the crimes of
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Speaker 1: the man we saw this was Richard Richard Ramirez and
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Speaker 1: n I Stalker's wife said that he did not commit
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Speaker 1: the crimes. The second is that they some of them
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Speaker 1: grew up in violent households where violence and love were
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Speaker 1: fused and they were seen as one and the same.
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Speaker 1: But this woman defies both of those theories. She seems
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Speaker 1: like she grew up in an affluent family. She has resources,
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Speaker 1: she has her mental health such to the extent that
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Speaker 1: she can try to contribute to society. So I would
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Speaker 1: say she's one of those outliers who just wants somebody
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Speaker 1: who's behind bars because she can track him and know
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Speaker 1: where he is at all times. You know, some people
16:54
Speaker 1: are profoundly insecure, and the idea of marrying somebody or
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Speaker 1: connecting with somebody, free to roam the world and have
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Speaker 1: friends and be their own person. It's just that they can't.
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Speaker 1: Can I just say, I wait a minute, Daryl, I
17:12
Speaker 1: was about to give love advice. Okay, he just put
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Speaker 1: a pin in at one moment, because doctor Bethany, you're
17:19
Speaker 1: the shrink. I'm just a jd. Okay. But if you
17:23
Speaker 1: have to worry about where your husband or boyfriend is,
17:27
Speaker 1: then that's the wrong guy for you, and you're not wrong.
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Speaker 1: He or she has probably given you a reason to think, Wow,
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Speaker 1: are they really at work? Are they somewhere else? Are
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Speaker 1: they shacked up at a hotel? Or they at somebody's apartment.
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Speaker 1: If you think that you have the wrong guy, I'm
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Speaker 1: just telling you, and it's not necessarily your fault. You're
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Speaker 1: not being suspicious and crazy. Something has made you think that.
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Speaker 1: So if you have to have a guy bucked up
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Speaker 1: in jail to feel good about it, crazy talk. Okay, Daryl,
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Speaker 1: you're quite the Lefario in your earlier days before. You're
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Speaker 1: very happy marriage. Right now. I think that we're looking
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Speaker 1: at cultult cult and charisma, and there are people who want,
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Speaker 1: for whatever reason, they want to be part of this cult,
18:21
Speaker 1: whether it was Manson, whether it was Bundy, and they
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Speaker 1: acquire that is, the people incarcerated for murder of acquired
18:30
Speaker 1: the charisma after the cult. And I think that these
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Speaker 1: women part of their psychic and I wish I was
18:38
Speaker 1: smart enough and educated enough on the psychological side, But
18:42
Speaker 1: I think from the logical side, from what we can see,
18:46
Speaker 1: they are looking for their place in history. Well, they
18:49
Speaker 1: certainly had to disagree with you from a from a
18:52
Speaker 1: logical perspective, you're probably a thousand percent right from the
18:56
Speaker 1: other side. But you just had to just throw that in,
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Speaker 1: just like I had to throw this worry about the steakhouse. Okay,
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Speaker 1: it happens, and isn't it true? Bruce Johnson, owner ESP Investigations,
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Speaker 1: former Master Sergeant Chicago Metro Area Police. When you're sitting
19:12
Speaker 1: around the table or in the break room, I don't
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Speaker 1: remember us having a break room, but I do remember
19:18
Speaker 1: sitting around the research table upon the what was at
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Speaker 1: ninth floor, Daryl where appeals was a talking about cafeteria. Yes,
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Speaker 1: that that would be our table, and talking This is
19:32
Speaker 1: exactly what it's like when you dissect the case. You
19:35
Speaker 1: end up talking about trust fund babies and steakhouses used
19:39
Speaker 1: to go to twenty years ago. Bruce Johnson. At the
19:43
Speaker 1: end of all the talking and theorizing, you end up
19:47
Speaker 1: with a theory on the case. But I still don't
19:49
Speaker 1: understand this woman rich, educated, the works marrying a guy
19:55
Speaker 1: in ps Bruce Johnson, I hope you're sitting down. He's
19:59
Speaker 1: eligible for parole in less than two years, twenty twenty
20:03
Speaker 1: ten dead people. He's up for parole twenty twenty. What
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Speaker 1: about Abrie Shaws. Well, again, it's socializing. They want to
20:09
Speaker 1: they want that popularity, they want to be linked to
20:13
Speaker 1: a celebrity. You know, in in Illinois, we had the
20:16
Speaker 1: same thing with Drew Peterson. He had I want to say,
20:20
Speaker 1: three or four girlfriends and he got married in jail
20:22
Speaker 1: that he couldn't get the women to not come to
20:25
Speaker 1: the cell. So for whatever reason that it is, it's
20:28
Speaker 1: that social stagmatism that they want that celebrity status. They
20:32
Speaker 1: want to be linked to that person for whatever, and
20:34
Speaker 1: they don't really care about the crime. But as far
20:37
Speaker 1: as the other stuff with the incarceration, you know, we've
20:39
Speaker 1: been talking about this. You had a couple of series
20:43
Speaker 1: on it with the no Cash fail and that's where
20:45
Speaker 1: this is going. All this stuff is inside system and
20:49
Speaker 1: socializing the justice system. That's where it's going. Crime stories
21:02
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Guys, how do serial killers end up
21:08
Speaker 1: getting married and planning families from behind bars? I don't
21:13
Speaker 1: get it. But it's not just the DC sniper uh Malvo,
21:17
Speaker 1: who is set to be released in twenty twenty and
21:20
Speaker 1: less than two years. Take a listen to this nine
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Speaker 1: one one call, what's the problem? Twelve shots in the
21:35
Speaker 1: middle of Beverly Hills on a Sunday night, and no
21:38
Speaker 1: one calls. The police were waiting at the house, no
21:40
Speaker 1: one chose him, and I still can't believe it. I'm
21:45
Speaker 1: sitting on the stairs afterwards, thinking the police are going
21:48
Speaker 1: to be there in seconds. I think a roving patrol
21:50
Speaker 1: and people, many, many people didn't hear the shots. Many
21:53
Speaker 1: neighbors came in and said they heard all these shots,
21:55
Speaker 1: but nobody called. Because I just figured this is Beverly Hills.
21:59
Speaker 1: This doesn't happen in Hills. You were hearing a snippet
22:03
Speaker 1: of the nine one one call the Knight of Menendez
22:05
Speaker 1: and let me know who that was speaking, Jackie, because
22:09
Speaker 1: they really hit the nail on the head. LEVI page now,
22:13
Speaker 1: the Menendez brothers also married behind bars, but just refresh
22:18
Speaker 1: my recollection on the Menandez brothers crimes. Murdered their dad
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Speaker 1: and their mom, Kitty. Yeah, so the Memendez brothers were
22:26
Speaker 1: very wealthy and they barged into their parents Beverly Hills
22:30
Speaker 1: men WHOA wait a minute, they weren't wealthy. Their parents
22:34
Speaker 1: were wealthy. And you know why their parents were wealthy
22:37
Speaker 1: because they worked like dogs to amass money for the
22:42
Speaker 1: Menendez brothers to run through as soon as they murdered
22:46
Speaker 1: their parents, you're correct, And they busted into the mansion
22:50
Speaker 1: with the twelve gage shotgun and killed Jose and Kitty
22:53
Speaker 1: Memendez and then went on a spending spree with their
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Speaker 1: money after the murder. And lyle and As he's been
23:00
Speaker 1: behind bars for thirty one years, and he is on
23:05
Speaker 1: wife number two. He was married for sixteen years, and
23:11
Speaker 1: I had a woman that visited him every weekend in prison.
23:15
Speaker 1: Her name was Rebecca. And he told People magazine in
23:19
Speaker 1: twenty seventeen that he and his wife probably have better
23:23
Speaker 1: conversations than most married couples do because it's just the
23:27
Speaker 1: two of them and there's no distractions when they get
23:30
Speaker 1: to visit each other and he's on wife number two
23:34
Speaker 1: in Oh, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Bethany, Bethany Marshall,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall, did you hear that these guys gunned
23:42
Speaker 1: down their mom and dad as they're sitting there watching TV,
23:45
Speaker 1: eating ice cream? Carry on, cry to the police. Then
23:50
Speaker 1: they run out by sports cars, get a private tennis coach,
23:55
Speaker 1: by expensive watches, jewelry clothes. Immediately after their parents are
23:59
Speaker 1: gunned down, dad they claimed their dad molested them. That
24:04
Speaker 1: still doesn't explain even if it were true, doesn't explain
24:09
Speaker 1: murdering your mother in cold blood. And by the way, Bethany,
24:13
Speaker 1: she was crawling up the hallway trying to get away
24:18
Speaker 1: from her sons, and they followed her and gunned her
24:22
Speaker 1: down as she tried to crawl away. It's my understanding
24:25
Speaker 1: based on the forensics. To Joe Scott Morgan, how the
24:28
Speaker 1: heck could they tell that based on the forensics at
24:30
Speaker 1: the home? Well, obviously, if she was in fact crawling away,
24:35
Speaker 1: then she would leave traces of herself behind, whatever that
24:39
Speaker 1: might comprise of, say, for instance, like blood, there would
24:42
Speaker 1: be a blood trail that would be leading to the
24:44
Speaker 1: body as she is attempting to get away from where
24:48
Speaker 1: the event actually occurred. Let's keep in mind the husband,
24:51
Speaker 1: Jose was literally gunned down on his sofa with a
24:56
Speaker 1: shotgun blast to the head. That's what makes this so gruesome,
25:00
Speaker 1: the fact that they could actually do this to their parents,
25:04
Speaker 1: and that tells you a lot about the individual that
25:06
Speaker 1: might want to engage with these individuals at a personal level. So, Joe,
25:10
Speaker 1: are you read titling your book to Blood Beneath my knees? Well,
25:15
Speaker 1: I mean, based on where her body was found and
25:18
Speaker 1: bloodshow and forensics ricocheting bullets, they could tell what happened.
25:22
Speaker 1: I'll take a listen to our friends at NBC Dateline
25:25
Speaker 1: interviewing Tammy Menendez. I didn't set out to have a
25:29
Speaker 1: relationship with Eric, but it's something that happened. And you know,
25:34
Speaker 1: I wrote one letter to him and he wrote back,
25:38
Speaker 1: and I went to visit him in prison, and our
25:40
Speaker 1: relationship developed. And in fact, in one of his letters
25:43
Speaker 1: he had written and said that he had a girlfriend
25:45
Speaker 1: for a couple of years, and I kind of said,
25:48
Speaker 1: it's so sad that he thinks he has a girlfriend.
25:50
Speaker 1: So I understand where the public's view is coming from,
25:54
Speaker 1: but I do get emotional support from Eric. He's my
25:57
Speaker 1: best friend. You'd be surprised how well you can get
26:02
Speaker 1: to know somebody through letters. He became a really good
26:05
Speaker 1: friend of mine. And then after I met him, things,
26:08
Speaker 1: you know, got more and more intense. And you know what, Jackie.
26:11
Speaker 1: Let's hear again from Timmy Menendez speaking to ABC's Barbara Walters.
26:20
Speaker 1: I'm not a killer. I never was. It's not who
26:23
Speaker 1: I am. But you killed your parents, That's that's true.
26:26
Speaker 1: But I'm not a murderer. It troubles me. But I
26:29
Speaker 1: do know the person that Eric is I and I
26:32
Speaker 1: know his heart, I know his soul, and I do
26:35
Speaker 1: know what happened that night, and I do understand. I
26:39
Speaker 1: believe that within everybody, it put in certain circumstances, you will,
26:47
Speaker 1: you know, be able to kill somebody. I mean, I
26:49
Speaker 1: do believe that Eric is a very good person. Okay,
26:52
Speaker 1: earlier you were hearing our friends at date Line who
26:55
Speaker 1: we played the nine one one call doctor Bethany, do
26:59
Speaker 1: you believe that that everyone will kill in the right circumstances,
27:05
Speaker 1: because I don't. No, I don't believe that at all.
27:07
Speaker 1: And just to add something about the crime scene, those
27:10
Speaker 1: boys went back and shot their parents in the kneecaps
27:14
Speaker 1: just to make it look like it was a break in.
27:17
Speaker 1: So that is how cold blooded they were. And they
27:20
Speaker 1: went on a spending spree that lasted for months before
27:23
Speaker 1: suspicion turned on them. Now, in terms of Eric Menendez,
27:27
Speaker 1: what I'm hearing is that he has this so well
27:31
Speaker 1: rationalized that he's not a killer. This just happened. His
27:35
Speaker 1: dad and blested him. And as she said, it doesn't
27:37
Speaker 1: matter if his dad and blested him. They're all kinds
27:39
Speaker 1: of sexual abuse victims in this world, and they do
27:42
Speaker 1: not become homicidal. I think he has rationalized the crime.
27:46
Speaker 1: He has, in fact, brainwashed a willing participant who does
27:52
Speaker 1: not want to believe that he committed this crime. She
27:55
Speaker 1: says she had no intent of developing a relationship with him.
27:59
Speaker 1: I do not believe at all she wrote the first letter. Okay,
28:02
Speaker 1: she went and visited him. She sought this relationship out.
28:06
Speaker 1: And this reminds me of an interview I did once
28:09
Speaker 1: with a group of women who I told you this story. Once.
28:13
Speaker 1: They did something where they would wait outside the prisons
28:17
Speaker 1: for when men were released, and they would help them
28:19
Speaker 1: with something that they called touching down touching down was
28:23
Speaker 1: the first time the guy would have sex once he
28:26
Speaker 1: was released from prison. These women believed that because the
28:31
Speaker 1: men were behind bars, they had no sexual life, and
28:34
Speaker 1: so they were saving it all up for them that
28:37
Speaker 1: once the guys were released from their incarceration, they had
28:41
Speaker 1: all this sexual energy built up. And the woman whoever,
28:45
Speaker 1: the one woman I interviewed, her name was Misty. Misty
28:48
Speaker 1: believed that she would be the first sex partner in years,
28:52
Speaker 1: like having sex, was a virgin. So the fantasy of
28:56
Speaker 1: what went on behind bars, if these guys were leading
28:58
Speaker 1: these virginal lives and just only thinking about them and
29:02
Speaker 1: only available for them, really played on these women's pathology,
29:07
Speaker 1: for lack of a better word, that they needed, like
29:09
Speaker 1: I said earlier, to have somebody behind bars waiting for
29:12
Speaker 1: them all the time. Have you heard the anachronism TMI?
29:18
Speaker 1: Because that was a little more than I had bargained for,
29:22
Speaker 1: and now it's stuck up here and I'm never going
29:24
Speaker 1: to get that out of my head. Thanks doctor Bethany
29:27
Speaker 1: so much for the Touching Down explanation. Crime stories with Nancy, Grace,
29:44
Speaker 1: Bundy and Boone even had a daughter the result of
29:47
Speaker 1: a moment of cloak and dagger intimacy. In prison, Carol
29:50
Speaker 1: told me that there were two ways to have sex.
29:54
Speaker 1: One was to sneak into the bathroom and the other
29:57
Speaker 1: one was behind the water cooler. A recent Netflix documentary
30:00
Speaker 1: featured audio of her speaking about how the baby was conceived.
30:07
Speaker 1: Carol Anne Boone believed Bundy's claims of innocence for many years. Guys,
30:16
Speaker 1: you are hearing our friend, my friend Jim Murray speaking
30:20
Speaker 1: about Ted Bundy and his wife Carol Anne Boone. Take
30:26
Speaker 1: a listen to our friends at Inside Edition. Why would
30:30
Speaker 1: anyone marry America's most notorious serial killer. That's the intriguing
30:34
Speaker 1: question being raised by the new movie, in which Zac
30:37
Speaker 1: Efron plays the monster Ted Bundy. The movie features scenes
30:41
Speaker 1: involving Bundy's wife, Carol Anne Boone. Media is committed had
30:45
Speaker 1: his dame cry. The real life Bundy and Boone first
30:48
Speaker 1: became friends when they worked together in Washington State in
30:51
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four. Bundy actually proposed to Carol Anne while
30:55
Speaker 1: she was testifying on his behalf at the penalty phase
30:58
Speaker 1: of his murder trial in Florida. Will You married? That
31:04
Speaker 1: was all that was required for them to be officially married.
31:08
Speaker 1: In the state of Florida. Author Stephen Mishow visited Bundy
31:11
Speaker 1: numerous times on death row. He says he helped arrange
31:14
Speaker 1: the surprising courtroom proposal, even procuring rings from Tiffany and
31:19
Speaker 1: a wedding outfit for Bundy. I went to the men's
31:21
Speaker 1: store and bought Ted a pair of khakis and a
31:25
Speaker 1: bow tie and some argyle socks so he could look
31:28
Speaker 1: spiffy for the for the occasion. You are hearing the
31:32
Speaker 1: voice of the guy who arranged Ted Bundy's wedding surreptitiously.
31:39
Speaker 1: That was Stephen Mishow speaking to Inside Edition straight out
31:43
Speaker 1: to Levipage Crime online dot com investigative reporter. How did
31:47
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy end up getting married behind bars? So, Nancy
31:51
Speaker 1: Ted Bundy met Carol Boone when they worked together in Washington,
31:56
Speaker 1: Washington State Emergency Services. And that is what is so bizarre.
32:00
Speaker 1: They actually met searching for women that had gone missing
32:04
Speaker 1: in the state, women that Ted Bundy actually murdered. And
32:09
Speaker 1: he was later arrested and was going on trial for
32:12
Speaker 1: murder in Florida, and the trial was in Orlando, and
32:17
Speaker 1: he was accused of murdering Kimberlee Leech. He was convicted
32:20
Speaker 1: of that. She was twelve years old and Carol could
32:25
Speaker 1: not find a minister to marry them, but she found
32:27
Speaker 1: a loophole in the law. If there's a public declaration
32:32
Speaker 1: of marriage that's made in a courtroom in front of
32:35
Speaker 1: officers of the court, then the marriage is considered legal.
32:39
Speaker 1: So Ted Bundee actually represented himself and he called her
32:43
Speaker 1: to the stand, asked her to marry him, and she
32:47
Speaker 1: said yes, and they even had a child. Against prison rules,
32:53
Speaker 1: she got pregnant and that daughter is now thirty six
32:56
Speaker 1: years old, living her life somewhere. I don't machanics, but
33:01
Speaker 1: leavi page. How in the hay did this woman, Carolyn
33:06
Speaker 1: Boone get pregnant by Ted Bundy behind bars? Yeah, I
33:11
Speaker 1: was against prison rules, but apparently they were able to
33:14
Speaker 1: be intimate. And this is not the only rules pape rope.
33:17
Speaker 1: It's alleged that she would smuggle drugs to him, and
33:21
Speaker 1: that she smuggled drugs to him by hiding them in
33:25
Speaker 1: her private parts, not to get too graphic, and she
33:29
Speaker 1: is also alleged I've actually given him cash when he
33:33
Speaker 1: escaped during that escape, during one of his two escapes.
33:39
Speaker 1: Amazing to me. I'll never get past this, Darryl Cohen,
33:42
Speaker 1: How somebody like Ted Bundy manages to escape not once,
33:46
Speaker 1: but twice once from a law librarian the courthouse. As
33:51
Speaker 1: I recall, how did that happen? How do you not
33:54
Speaker 1: watch Ted Bundy every minute? How does that happen? Darryl Cohen?
33:59
Speaker 1: I think it's reducts of Fulton County, George, Fulton County Courthouse, Atlanta, Georgia.
34:06
Speaker 1: I suspect that Ted Bundy, who was very well educated,
34:10
Speaker 1: very glib, and didn't look like a killer. He looked
34:14
Speaker 1: like a good guy, like a lawyer. Oh my gosh,
34:16
Speaker 1: he was a lawyer. So they let their guard down.
34:20
Speaker 1: Excuse me, I have to go to the bathroom. I'll
34:22
Speaker 1: be right back. Don't worry about it to Ted, who
34:25
Speaker 1: then saunors out. Yeah. I think he seemed not to
34:29
Speaker 1: be a threat. He didn't look the part. He wasn't
34:33
Speaker 1: from Hollywood casting. He was a villain. Heina's killer that
34:38
Speaker 1: no one expected, which is also how he lured in
34:41
Speaker 1: a lot of his victims. But it's not Jessey jump in,
34:45
Speaker 1: go ahead. I would love to make a comment about
34:48
Speaker 1: Carol Anne Boone and why she wanted to marry him
34:50
Speaker 1: and Let's remember that when she helped him escape, that's
34:53
Speaker 1: when he went and killed another person. So she actually
34:56
Speaker 1: participated in the crime. And there's so many theories about
35:00
Speaker 1: why women marry men behind bars, but one of the
35:04
Speaker 1: theories is that the woman takes secret pleasure in the
35:08
Speaker 1: man's crimes, that there is something latently homicidal about the woman,
35:15
Speaker 1: and that she has hatred towards the victims. And this
35:18
Speaker 1: is in the literature, and I've seen this in my
35:20
Speaker 1: practice with women who pair up with men who are hateful, domineering, aggressive,
35:26
Speaker 1: and so their friendship flourished when they were searching for victims,
35:31
Speaker 1: which tells me that she had a lurid fascination with
35:35
Speaker 1: his crimes. She helped Springham from jail and he committed
35:40
Speaker 1: another crime. Could it be that Carol Anne Boone, although
35:43
Speaker 1: she was not technically a serial killer herself, that there
35:48
Speaker 1: was some pleasure that other women were getting killed, raped,
35:52
Speaker 1: in a sense, like they had it coming to them.
35:55
Speaker 1: Her motive would be different from his use, would be
35:57
Speaker 1: more sexual sadism, but her might be hatred towards women,
36:02
Speaker 1: and they paired up on this mutual sociopathy that they shared.
36:06
Speaker 1: You know, Doctor Bethany, you just taught me something new
36:10
Speaker 1: that I hadn't thought of regarding these women who marry
36:15
Speaker 1: killers behind bars. That was an incredible train of thought.
36:20
Speaker 1: Let's see if we can apply it to someone known
36:24
Speaker 1: as the night Stalker. Take a listen to our friends
36:27
Speaker 1: at k R O N four, Vicky Levicus for many
36:32
Speaker 1: who would look at Richard Ramirez in the eye and
36:34
Speaker 1: say he is the face of evil, And yet you
36:39
Speaker 1: look at him and you see the man of your dreams. Yes,
36:44
Speaker 1: who needs glasses here? I can't help the way the
36:48
Speaker 1: world looks at him. They don't know him the way
36:51
Speaker 1: I do. And the next day, Dorene walked down the aisle,
36:55
Speaker 1: albeit a prison aisle, with her groom. Here's the couple
36:59
Speaker 1: and her response being the new missus Richard Ramirez. It
37:02
Speaker 1: feels wonderful. I'm so happy. I'm I'm so thrilled, very proud,
37:09
Speaker 1: and a little belief that the bulk of the day
37:13
Speaker 1: is over and just hopefully I can enjoy the rest
37:17
Speaker 1: of my day in peace with Richard's family and think
37:21
Speaker 1: about the importance of what happened today, the importance of
37:25
Speaker 1: what happened. She married the night Stalker. How many dead
37:29
Speaker 1: bodies connected to the night stalker Leavi Page. So Nancy.
37:33
Speaker 1: This guy in the spring and summer of eighty fins,
37:35
Speaker 1: he terrorized residents of southern California in San Francisco, and
37:40
Speaker 1: he was responsible for thirteen home invasion murders and eleven
37:45
Speaker 1: sexual assaults. And he beat and sexually assaulted women before
37:50
Speaker 1: stabbing them to death. Take a listen to our friends
37:53
Speaker 1: at ABC GMA. This is our friend Matt Gutman. She
37:57
Speaker 1: may look like the girl next door, but this woman
38:00
Speaker 1: could be the future Missus Charles Manson. Everybody loves the
38:05
Speaker 1: Lame Charles Manson. ABC News has learned the notorious killer
38:10
Speaker 1: I'm a convict, I'm an outlaw, I'm a rebel, I'm
38:14
Speaker 1: not a sunny school teacher, obtained a marriage license from
38:17
Speaker 1: behind bars and could marry twenty six year old Star
38:21
Speaker 1: Burton as soon as next month. Starr, whose real name
38:25
Speaker 1: is Afton Elaine Burton, is fifty four years younger than Manson,
38:29
Speaker 1: born long after he was convicted the gruesome murders of
38:33
Speaker 1: actress Sharon Tate and six others in nineteen seventy one.
38:37
Speaker 1: Still she says she loves him, and in this twenty
38:39
Speaker 1: eleven video posted on YouTube says that she wants to
38:43
Speaker 1: exonerate him. It's so obvious that Charles Manson was railroaded.
38:48
Speaker 1: Burton was raised a Baptist in Missouri, moved out to
38:51
Speaker 1: California nine years ago to be closer to Manson's prisoner.
38:55
Speaker 1: She even runs this website devoted to clearing Manson's name.
39:00
Speaker 1: Charles Manson getting married behind bars and the reality is
39:05
Speaker 1: his wife, his bride, his fiancee was born after the
39:10
Speaker 1: murders and had no idea what was happening. And you know,
39:15
Speaker 1: here's another stunner to Joseph Scott Morgan forensics expert. Remember
39:19
Speaker 1: how we have analyzed Natalie holloway disappearance and then murder
39:24
Speaker 1: of Stephanie Tassiana Flores. Your Vanderslut second murder victim that
39:29
Speaker 1: we know of. You do know, yourn Vanderslute is married
39:33
Speaker 1: with a child from behind bars, right, Jesscott, Yeah, I do. Actually,
39:39
Speaker 1: Nancy Vanderslut has been married. And when you consider how
39:45
Speaker 1: devious and just horrible this person is in this world,
39:50
Speaker 1: it's amazing that he could find anyone that would want to,
39:56
Speaker 1: you know, kind of engage with him, particularly at this
39:58
Speaker 1: intimate level. It's absolutely just striking the fact that you
40:04
Speaker 1: have people that are obsessed with folks like Vanderslot. Vandersloot
40:08
Speaker 1: has brought and you know it is about the killing
40:12
Speaker 1: of Natalie Holloway, the missing, the circumstances around her missing,
40:18
Speaker 1: but the pain and anguish he has drugged this family
40:23
Speaker 1: through for all of these years, the mom and dad
40:26
Speaker 1: where he would give them little bits of information. This
40:29
Speaker 1: guy is a true sadist. Nancy, he maynty. Can I
40:32
Speaker 1: make a comment about their own because this one, Charles Manson, Urn,
40:37
Speaker 1: Vander Salute, and Richard Ramirez all three, the three women
40:41
Speaker 1: who married those men have something in common. And I
40:45
Speaker 1: want to refer to a famous study where women were
40:48
Speaker 1: interviewed who had married men behind bar. A certain subset
40:52
Speaker 1: of women had no idea what the crime was. They
40:56
Speaker 1: had deliberately decided not to look at the criminal record.
41:01
Speaker 1: They didn't want to know, and they would proudly say
41:04
Speaker 1: to the prison guards and to the interviewers, I don't
41:06
Speaker 1: know what he did. I don't even care. So there
41:09
Speaker 1: was this deliberate denial. I also think that what Daryl
41:14
Speaker 1: Cohen said about this cult, like a persona that draws
41:19
Speaker 1: the woman in I mean, I think Charles Manson definitely
41:21
Speaker 1: fits that subtype that he was talking about. He was
41:24
Speaker 1: a cult leader, so what is he going to do
41:26
Speaker 1: even from behind bars. He's going to continue to recruit
41:29
Speaker 1: like he did when he was roaming free and killing people.
41:32
Speaker 1: Dodger Bethany Marshall and in depth analysis of not only
41:38
Speaker 1: the sadistic killers behind bars, but the psychopathy behind the
41:44
Speaker 1: women that marry them, have sex with them, and bear
41:48
Speaker 1: their children from behind bars. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing
41:54
Speaker 1: off Goodbye Friend,