Latest / Complex Kids, Simple Solutions / Episode 55 Understanding EMDR with Jenny Hornby

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Episode 55 Understanding EMDR with Jenny Hornby · Complex Kids, Simple Solutions

• Michelle Choairy: Hi everyone, welcome back to Complex Kids Simple Solutions. Hey guys, today we have Jenny Hornby with us and I am really excited because there's a couple things we're gonna be talking about that I don't know anything about. So this is going to be super fun. Welcome to the show. Welcome to Complex Kids Simple Solutions, the podcast for parents raising complex and neurodivergent kids who are doing their best in systems that don't always make things easy. I'm Michelle Shoeidi, founder of Special Education Concierge, a mom to a complex kid, a speaker, and an advocate. This space isn't about perfection. It's about real life, the hard days, the small wins. you go, take a deep breath. don't have to solve everything today. ⁓ don't have to have it all figured If this episode helped you feel seen, ⁓ grounded, ⁓ a little less alone, ⁓ make you're so don't miss future conversations. if you ever want a deeper support, Jenny Hornby LPC: Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. Michelle Choairy: Yes, thanks Jenny. All right. So, first of all, if you're watching it on the video, she is so perfectly put together that I am looking at myself in the video and I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, I should have like done my hair really good. And she's she's like this perfect little doll in on the video. So I just want you guys to know. So anyway. And so when you're watching the clips. The moments where you wonder if you're doing enough, and the moments where you realize you are. we talk honestly, ⁓ practical insight, and ⁓ what overwhelming. One conversation a time, you are your hero. Special Education Concierge is here when you're ready. step at a time. One at a time. You are child's hero. I'll see you Jenny Hornby LPC: ⁓ now. that's funny. I'm channeling my grandmother. ⁓ that's funny. Michelle Choairy: ⁓ When you're watching the clips on on Facebook and and TikTok and all of that, do not judge mama over here and the crazy hair. So that's right. right, Jenny, let's get to it. So one the things that really interested me, there's a couple about you, but one of the things is that on your bio, you are ⁓ Jenny Hornby LPC: No. No judgment. That's right. Yeah. ⁓ Mm-hmm. Michelle Choairy: a counselor and child a children's book author and you are trained in MDR EMDR and playtherapy. What the heck is EMDR? Can you tell us? Jenny Hornby LPC: Mm-hmm. Right. Right, I know. Sure. So it stands for it it's kinda terrible name. I think we all agree. So it's eye movement desensitization reprocessing is what EMDR stands for. ⁓ when Francine Shapiro discovered it and you know developed this whole intervention, she realized after finding out that she had cancer that she went and took a walk ⁓ as she was walking and really distressed. Her, she was kind of looking back and forth across the road. when she came back from the walk, she felt less distress. And so she started started kind of diving into that, found that REM sleep, you know, our eyes are rapidly moving back and forth. And it's that bilateral movement helps us kind of digest the hard things. and so we found that if we can kind of look at the hard things that are really upsetting and bring bilateral movement, walking, moving our eyes back and forth, tapping, that it acts as a way that and we don't totally understand why, but it lights up, you know, both hemispheres of the brain, and we're able to kind of de escalate or know, the situation goes from maybe being a ten, like the most upsetting thing ever, to ⁓ a three or a four. just by letting yourself notice it with this bilateral movement. And then the second part is you install something more helpful. So maybe for some of your students, if they're believing they're stupid when they get frustrated, you know, if you can think about, well, when did you start believing that? You know, what was going on? And you can have them think about it and remember it and bring bilateral movement and then say, okay, what would you rather believe? What would be more true? What would be more helpful? Well, you know, that I'm learning. Or I'm learning I I am smart. I'm just having a hard time right now. Whatever it is. So you say, okay, I want you I want you to think about that memory where you were having a hard time in school. And I want you to know bring that belief in. I'm learning it's okay to have a hard time. I'm learning I can do hard things. And they tap that in. So you can like tap out the hard stuff and tap in the good stuff nice and slow. And so there's this installation process. and with kids it's super fun. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: because their minds are so malleable, you know, so it's a lot quicker. my son the other day, he w he had started homework and he was like, I can't do it. I you know, having a whole meltdown. And after five minutes, he had figured it out. He learned how to do the math problem. And I literally went up to him and I started tapping his shoulders. I was like, You can do hard things. Like you got through it, you know? And he's just laughing, like, ⁓ my gosh, mom. ⁓ ⁓ yeah, anytime you can bring bilateral movement, you know, walking, Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Mm. Jenny Hornby LPC: have little buzzies that the kids can hold ⁓ we'll take a paintbrush and we'll we call it brushing it in or brushing it out and we'll it it's so it's so fun and amazing and and people look at me afterwards, they're like, Is this magic? Because it really is so effective. I mean it works so so well. so I highly recommend it. It it's amazing. It's a great, great, great tool to have. Yeah. Michelle Choairy: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. It's it's interesting because I think I heard the very first time I heard that term was like I don't know 20 years ago, 25 years ago. And it was one of my yeah, one of my roommates back then, she she's she really got into it. And so but I really never really understood this and how how to use it or any of that. So Jenny Hornby LPC: Yeah, it's been around. Right. Okay. Yes. Mm-hmm. Michelle Choairy: Is this something you have to teach the kids to do? Is this something that you have to implement it somehow? is there like a you know, a book that we need to learn from? ⁓ how does how does it work? 'Cause you yeah. Jenny Hornby LPC: Yes, like ha y it has to be done by someone who's trained in EMDR, you know, so it's the therapy, licensed therapy kind of tool. and the way I kind of introduce it to kids is of course in like a fun, playful way, you know. So ⁓ first step is finding out what's their preferred way to do bilateral movement, you know, and so we'll play around like different depending on the age, you know. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: Do you want to move, you know, like an elephant? Do you wanna be a gorilla? Do you wanna stomp? You know, and we'll find whatever it is. A lot of them like my buzzies, and they'll just hold on to them or put it in their pocket. so have to kind of find that piece for them that feels the most comfortable. And then you find out like what is it, what what's been bothering them? And a lot of times it comes out in their play. You know, I I'll Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: I'll use the play therapy intervention to sort of see where they go in their play. You know, maybe they're playing trucks and and they keep burying everything under the sand, you know, in this sense of like I can't I can't get to what I need. It's all buried, you know, and and so I say a lot, like, s you know, I'll just reflect back what I see. ⁓ everything's buried. Notice that. Everything's there. What's you know? ⁓ And they have to do is just kind of bring their awareness to it. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: And I have a just a little scale, you know, like a sunshine is everything's great, and then a storm, you know, which is everything's terrible, and then like a little cloudy sky, it's not it's kind of in the middle. And I'll say, Where where are you at right now when you think about that? You know, and they'll point to it and and that way they can kind of see their progression, you know. a good book I mean Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Sure. Jenny Hornby LPC: Go to the original and just start out with Francine Shapiro, you know, because she's the one who's developed it. and there's a lot ⁓ EMDR and play therapy. Anna Gomez is the best known person for that. And she has a website and a lot of resources and videos and stuff. So if you look for her, ⁓ and then you can do art too. Like we'll do something called Scribble Out Michelle, where they'll just Michelle Choairy: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Jenny Hornby LPC: Fold the paper in half and then fold it in half again and then unfold it and they have four squares. So the first square they think about, maybe they have a fear of bugs. You know, okay, think about that fear, think about that wasp or whatever. and how much does it bother you? And you write that in the first square, and then I just have them draw what shape, what color, what comes to mind around that, and then they pick a color they really like. Michelle Choairy: ⁓ huh. Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: like a really like their favorite color or a color that makes them feel good. And I tell them, I want you to notice how much this bug bothers you, but take that color and start scribbling over that image. So they're doing the thing. They're focusing on the thing they don't like. They're noticing it, but they're bringing that resource of this color. And so it starts to bring the distress down. and that it's just a real simple way that they can just notice what it is. Michelle Choairy: Mm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: And it's contained in this square, it's on the paper. 'cause really that's what's such a hard reality, isn't it? Like in order to get stronger, we have to face the hard thing. You know, the avoidance is really a big part of what exacerbates the problem. So trying to help them feel strong enough that you can face it. You're not alone, you know, it's on the paper, you know, or whatever, ⁓ to really encourage them. So Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. So do you do this mostly with kids are ⁓ is this also done with adults? This this therapy? Jenny Hornby LPC: Yes, I do with both. Yeah. I think it really started out with adults and then they've they've really found ways to adapt it with kids. so I I do it with both. And, you know, a lot of times clients will come as it's the parent bringing the kid, and then as we kind of get to know each other we realize, ⁓ mom and dad have got a lot of trauma that's making it hard for them to be present, you know, f with their child. So we'll do some parent sessions and really try to Michelle Choairy: Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: help them with whatever is getting triggered in them. You know, I I always say I thought I I thought I was a really nice person until I became a mom. know, your kids just trigger. They ⁓ trigger the deep stuff. You just ⁓ it's so hard. ⁓ it's a great opportunity. Like, ⁓ yes, yes, they definitely do. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Seriously. ⁓ my God. They they trigger your mother. I I mean they trigger my mom. Like it's like, ⁓ my gosh, what did I just do? You know? okay, so in seriously, is it's insane. It's like I'm I'm a mom. I'm ⁓ I'm doing what my mom used to do. okay, so of course I'm gonna turn this a little bit into our ⁓ kiddos, our kids, right? ⁓ how would that Jenny Hornby LPC: Right. Right. Yeah, it is, it is. Yeah. Right. Michelle Choairy: How'd you do that with a complex kiddo? Jenny Hornby LPC: Mm. Yeah, I I would say everybody, every child I've worked with has been pretty complex. And so you ha you have to leave room for them and and the way they wanna work and really go at their pace. so that's where the play therapy is such a great, you know, avenue to work because Michelle Choairy: Okay. Okay. Jenny Hornby LPC: They love coming to see me. I mean, my clients run in. They give me the biggest hug. They can't wait to come. They want to come do therapy on their birthday. Like they think it's the best thing ever, you know? So it's it's done in a way that feels really natural for them. it's not like now sit down on the couch, now tell me how you're feeling, point it out on the chart. You know, it's it's very, very playful and Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. ⁓ nice, yes. ⁓ huh. Sure. Yes. Jenny Hornby LPC: ⁓ I really try, you know, especially in those first couple sessions, to just look for what themes are showing up in their play, you know, like burying things or, you know, just really aggressive play, ⁓ where they're banging everything or smacking everything, you know. and so it it's a lot of kind of finding their language and their their mode and then working ⁓ that them and at their pace. And it can be very quick, like Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: It might just be a couple minutes where we're doing some reprocessing and then we'll go back to play and just kind of a social engagement, and a you know, maybe tossing a ball back and forth. So it it's very much, you know, kind of breaking it up into how much they can tolerate. If if I start noticing they're they're getting overwhelmed or this is getting to be a little too much, then we'll just pause and play hot potato, draw a picture, you know. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Something else to get them out of that f yeah. Yeah. Okay. Jenny Hornby LPC: What to go get a snack, you know, walk around. Exactly. Yep. So it's it's amazing to me. Yeah, it's really cool. Michelle Choairy: That's interesting. I mean, when you when you think about it, right? A lot of the complex kiddos out there, especially if you're starting them really young, some of them don't have the language to even explain to you what it is that they're feeling. ⁓ And don't they don't know what those feelings are. They don't know what that is. And I think that this kind of leads us into your book ⁓ and you're doing when it comes to kiddos. Jenny Hornby LPC: Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Michelle Choairy: So tell us about that. Jenny Hornby LPC: So during COVID, like so many other people, right, I was bored out of my mind. So I started writing this story called Made for This. And it's based on my youngest son and I had gone to ⁓ Cove. It's a place in Florida that you like swim with all different fish and everything. ⁓ they had this giant stingray that was like six feet across. It was massive. And he wanted to get in there and swim with it, but he was so scared, you know, to do it. so ⁓ like made up a song and we just had the best time. And we got out there and he faced his fears, you know. And during lockdown and boredom, I just was like, I wonder if I could like write a story about, you know, helping kids face their fears. And ⁓ so ended up writing one about a ⁓ otter an ⁓ otter Michelle Choairy: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Jenny Hornby LPC: And the otter scared ⁓ to like float on his back by himself and he wants his mom and all these kind of things. so it's really ⁓ a sweet story about what describing what it feels like to be scared, you know, in this in the book, the heart's racing and it's hard to breathe and it's hard to think. And, you know, just sort of helping them understand the body sensations around what fear is like. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: And then the mom is like this beautiful model of like how to be a loving, compassionate, curious mom. Like, I want to be more like her, you know? And I know exactly. I'm like, I want to be like her. She's so good. so she is very like curious with him and kind and helps him explore it. And it's really fun, just kind of dynamic in this relationship of seeing him. Michelle Choairy: They won't say we hate Yes Jenny Hornby LPC: faces fears and he has to do it. You know, she's there to support him, but it's gotta be him who faces it and work through it. and so that's how the story came about. And it's funny because a lot of educators are using it because so many kids are scared to learn the new skill or to try the new thing, this fear of failing. so the stories actually ended up getting into a lot of schools because it helps Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: open up this whole conversation about, okay, so what happens to you, you know, when you try to do your math facts or you try to write a sentence about, you know, what you just read and ⁓ so it really helps the body a awareness of what's happening, you know. Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, one of the things that I really wasn't a struggle so much. It was just, you know, getting the right recommendations for the books. But ⁓ one of the ones ⁓ we used a lot with my son was How to Train Your Dragon. And and I don't know if you've seen those, but he, you know, my son has ADHD, so it explains about ADHD. Jenny Hornby LPC: Right. ⁓ Yes. Michelle Choairy: And then it talks about, you know, if if you are if you do wrong things and making the right choices. So it teaches, you know, the kid is teaching his dragon not to make bad choices. And so those are really interesting things. And so when I hear about kids' books that are trying to teach them you know, social skills ⁓ ⁓ you know, learning feelings. Jenny Hornby LPC: I love that. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Michelle Choairy: One of the greatest things that Disney ever did, and you guys can say whatever you want about Disney, but that Inside Out movie was so good for the kids, right? It Yes Jenny Hornby LPC: Love it. Yes. Yes. Good for me. My husband and I cried through the whole thing. We're just like, ⁓ my gosh. Yeah, was so good. Michelle Choairy: I was like, I am a constant red in my life right now. So it's like, know. ⁓ so and you you identify with with the characters, you identify with the feelings. And so ⁓ and with the complex kids, what I've ⁓ is that they have a ⁓ harder time understanding that. ⁓ Jenny Hornby LPC: Yes. Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes, right. Mm-hmm. Michelle Choairy: understanding their feelings, understanding what it is and what the consequences can be for whatever it is that they're going to do. And so I am grateful to authors like you that can bring that into animation or into a book, right? That you can read and look at. Yes, yeah, that creativity. And so now Jenny Hornby LPC: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Creative. Yeah. Mm, yeah. Michelle Choairy: W so you said that it came about during COVID. Did you have like a specific thing? Like you kind of touched on it, but it w was it just I wanna write a book? What if I did this? Is that kind of how it went or? Jenny Hornby LPC: Yeah. ⁓ Well, it started out with I wrote the story and then I was taking a walk w with my dog and met another lady walking her dog 'cause that's all you could do, right? During lockdown. ⁓ ⁓ I told her I'd written this children's ⁓ and that I was thinking about, you know, maybe publishing it, but I didn't have a illustrator. And she was like, Well, I am an illustrator. Like I just got my master's degree in fine arts and Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Jenny Hornby LPC: I I'm looking for a children's book to illustrate. And I was like, are you kidding me right now? So she and I collaborated and it was just one of those things where we would just like take the next step and a door would open. And we take another step and the door would open. And it it kind of just grew. Yeah, it was a it was. It was such a cool experience. And ⁓ so if that's how it happened, it was very organic, literally, taking a walk and meeting people along the way. but I think you're right about inside out. Michelle Choairy: Wow. Nooo Amazing. Yeah. Mm-hmm. That's crazy. Jenny Hornby LPC: I think that's a good resource for sure is the Inside Out movie. I have the little miniatures at my office and the kids it and we'll pull it out and they'll use that to talk about it. and you know, actually some of my kid clients will write books. Like I get those little blank books and ⁓ letting be the author and I'll be be real open-ended with them. I'll say, you know. Michelle Choairy: Yes. Yeah. Okay. Uh-huh. Jenny Hornby LPC: Who's your main character gonna be? And and let's give them a problem and how are we gonna solve it and what do they need? And and it's kind of a fun thing to let them be the expert and see what they do and and where they go and Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. what their consequences, what they are going to, what they know. You know, kids, kids, they can like twist things around really, really well and say, ⁓ I didn't know that. But they do, right? you know, it you you you're gonna talk about a consequence of something. Like they, you know, they go out and I'll you the story. So my son went out Jenny Hornby LPC: Exactly. Right. Mm. Right. Mm-hmm. Michelle Choairy: ⁓ he figured out where I had hidden the Nutella and he got the Nutella and he went out to the front yard with a spoon and has this little nook where he goes in the front yard and where he puts things ⁓ and couldn't find the Nutella anywhere. And so I go, Did you eat the Nutella? And I knew he had. I knew he had it, you know? And so I said, Well Jenny Hornby LPC: Mm-hmm. Right. Michelle Choairy: know, you cannot go on your scooter because you just took the Nutella and you ate the whole entire thing. so, ⁓ here's the thing ⁓ he know that he was not supposed to eat the Nutella? He did, but he did it anyway. And so ⁓ a lot of times, yes, I'm not saying that this is across the board for the complex kiddos. Like my son is 12. Jenny Hornby LPC: Mm. Yes. Right. Right. This sni he was going and sneaking it. Yeah. Mm. Michelle Choairy: He does have intellectual disability. But, you know, when you when you look at these kiddos, like there's I think that there is that sense of right and wrong, and I'm not talking about all of them. But ⁓ you, ⁓ know, when you teach them these things, ⁓ if you put that in their words, like you were saying, like they're going to tell you the right thing, the right thing to do. Jenny Hornby LPC: Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, right. It's in there. It is. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. So true. And I one thing I wanted to make sure ⁓ sorry, Michelle, go ahead. ⁓ No, one thing I really wanted to share today, just thinking about complex kids. I one of my experiences with them a lot is kind of running into this rigid thinking where they're like, but I wanted Nutella. I wanted it now. You know, and this idea of Michelle Choairy: It is. Yes, it is. Yeah. No, go ahead. No, you go ahead. Sorry. Jenny Hornby LPC: This is what has to happen and I I can't get past it until that happens. of the tr tools that has helped a lot for parents is just acknowledging the wish, you know, you wanted Nutella. You really wanted to have Nutella right now, you know? ⁓ and then like the l the limit is it's not time for Nutella. It's Nutella time, ⁓ you And ⁓ Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yes. Jenny Hornby LPC: I love the idea I've just seen it. It's it's such a simple thing to just acknowledge what they wanted or what they're wanting because it again, it builds the sense of connection between the two of you. Okay, mom gets it. Mom understands that I really wanted Nutella and she sees that and I and I can also like acknowledge like this is the desire in me, this is what I want. But then you're kind of helping bring that limit in terms of, but it's not time for that, you know? Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jenny Hornby LPC: you can, you know, have a glass of water or you can get, you know, wait until dinner, but it's not Nutella time, you know? but I I just I wanna encourage parents that when they feel like they're kind of in that back and forth with a kid, like, but I want this, but I have to have this. Sometimes it's just nice to have in your head kind of a script already ready to say, okay, let me just acknowledge Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jenny Hornby LPC: what it is you're wanting and let you know that I acknowledge it. Cause a lot of times we get it. We just don't say it. And so they don't they don't feel like we get it. But I'll watch a kid when you acknowledge it and say, Okay, you wanted Nutella. Like I'll see their shoulders relax and their their whole body changes because they're like, okay, mom gets it. She knows that's what I want, you know? And it sounds so simple, but it really does kind of get you back on the same page a little bit. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Okay, so I'm gonna ask you because this is what I was thinking. Okay. Had I told him, well, first of all, had I caught him before he went outside, right? Had I Because yes. Like, well, let me just tell you. So he this is how smart the kid is. He did not throw away the Nutella in our garbage, he put it in our neighbors' garbage. Jenny Hornby LPC: Okay. Right, right, in his little nut. I love your kid by the way. ⁓ ⁓ yeah Right Right. Michelle Choairy: So I would not see that he took the Nutella. Do you see how smart these kids are? And they're ⁓ my gosh. Anyway, but had I caught him, had I said it's not time for Nutella, I understand that you and then they lose it anyway. But be but there is that so there's that perseverance, right? That ⁓ Jenny Hornby LPC: So smart, yes. Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. You were hungry. Right. Yes. ⁓ that's a good way to look at it, Michelle. Right. Michelle Choairy: ⁓ I want to yeah, so you know, so what do you do? What do you do? Like what would you tell a parent to help with that? Like because I I know had I caught him before, ⁓ would have been kind of a cluster, right? Because he wanted it and he wanted it. Jenny Hornby LPC: Mm. Yeah. Well and I think you're right. Right. Mm-hmm. Right. Right. He was locked in. Well, and I think it's thinking about like what is the skill you want him to learn? You know, is the skill that you want him kind of make better choices? Is the skill that you want him not to hide it? Do you want him to ask you? ⁓ ⁓ is it that you would have rather him ⁓ ⁓ that situation? If he was hungry? Yeah. Okay. Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ask. Ask. Right? I think that that is the very first thing. I would have said no. And he knows that. He knows that I was gonna say no because it was almost time for dinner. Right? It was I I don't know. We eat super early. But you know, asking permission, and that is something that we're really, really struggling with now that he turned 12. He Jenny Hornby LPC: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Right, got it. Mm. Right. Okay. Michelle Choairy: He thinks that he's a big kid and he can do whatever he wants, but that's not the way that it goes. So ⁓ Jenny Hornby LPC: Yes. Right. Yeah. So it's and I hear too, like, asking and having to wait. You know, like there's a there's a lot of skills in there. He's gotta catch himself and recognize, okay, he needs something to eat, but then he's gotta make sure like is this the time and is this the right thing? and ⁓ sounded like he just wanted something and he he didn't want you to find out. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: He did a good job on that side. my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Michelle Choairy: Yep. I'm telling ya. Yeah. Well, ⁓ I think you mentioned that no, go ahead. Go ahead. Finish your thought. Jenny Hornby LPC: And and okay. ⁓ I was just gonna say some parents some parents have done the thing where before dinner if the kid gets hungry they'll they have a couple things out. Like if you get hungry before dinner you can have this or this and then you know they're eating something good, know, like you can have something decent, but it's tough. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I can barely put all together a decent dinner. Jenny Hornby LPC: Right, exactly. It's tough. I know. Yeah, so you can understand why it's such a hard thing. Yeah, it is. It's like Nutella Nutella's not the thing. ⁓ right, Michelle. Yeah, right. Michelle Choairy: Yes, yes, it's a hard thing. But that's that's why we need to laugh about. Yeah. That's why we laugh about it, right? Because if you you didn't you'd cry every single day because it is a tough it's a tough situation. Being ⁓ a complex kid is not ⁓ it's not what we that it would be, right? Jenny Hornby LPC: Yeah, yeah. Right. Mm mm, mm mm. No. Michelle Choairy: Okay, so ⁓ we're getting towards the end here. So I wanna ask you, you said you mentioned that there's another one maybe coming out. Don't tell us about that really quick. Okay. Jenny Hornby LPC: Okay. Okay. Yes. Uh-huh. Sure. Yeah. So this one is about anger and learning how to get along. and so this one was tougher to write, honestly. but a porcupine and a skunk and they keep fighting and hurting each other. And it's just trying trying to help kids kind of again understand what happens when they get angry, what's happening in their body, what they might notice, and then how do I respond? What what's What's the way that I can handle my anger where I'm not hurting someone else or hurting myself? so it really kind of it creates a fun dialogue. It reminds me, it's like grumpy old men in the woods. That's what it reminds me of. Cause they just the skunk and the porcupine keep attacking each other. So yeah. It'll be fun. ⁓ Michelle Choairy: They just that's funny. Yeah. Awesome. When is that coming out? Jenny Hornby LPC: Well, it'll be out. I'm still finishing up the manuscript. So it'll it should be out in the next year or so. Yeah, we have all the illustrations. I'm just I'm just finishing it up. You know how that goes, but and Michelle, I have two kids that are my both my kids are ADHD. Did I tell you that? So I can I feel your pain. Yeah, it's it's not easy. ⁓ I and I Michelle Choairy: Okay. Okay. Awesome. Yeah, yeah. I don't think so. Yeah. It's a it's a I'm telling you, it's a tough, it's a tough thing. It it really is. And I mean that's why I that's why we're doing this. Going through middle school, going through menopause, going through whatever. You just like, what? Jenny Hornby LPC: Yeah, and going go going through middle school. Right. Yeah. Right. My hair's falling out. I know. Yeah. Michelle Choairy: ⁓ my gosh, what is going on here? You know, you're up and down and you're everywhere. So okay, so at the end of every I always ask that if there is one thing that you want the moms who are listening to the to this, what do you want them to know and and keep and remember? Jenny Hornby LPC: Mm, mm. Oof Yeah. Yeah. I I would say, you know, just like what happened in our story about the Nutella is we're gonna find ourselves in these messy moments where there isn't an easy solution for them or for us, you know? And so I would say the main thing to focus on is how do I s stay connected to myself and what's going on inside of me and notice that and then how do I maintain a good connection with my child. Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: And that doesn't mean I mean you have to say no, you have to set limits, you have to discipline and allow for consequences. But that idea of if we have kind of a rupture in our relationship because I just lost my mind on you or you just lost your mind on me, knowing that you can come back and repair and you know, reconnect, scratch their back or snuggle or sit with them and and watch whatever they're watching, that idea of repair Michelle Choairy: Mm-hmm. Jenny Hornby LPC: Really does make a difference. So if you've totally feel like you've messed up, you can repair and the relationship actually be stronger for it. so I want parents to feel encouraged and hopeful that whatever has happened today, that it can be repaired and the relationship can be stronger and better. Mm-hmm, for sure. So don't give up hope, ⁓ matter what's happened with your Nutella. ⁓ Michelle Choairy: Yeah. Love it. Love it. Like and just don't give up. Don't give up. Keep going. All right, Jenny. Thank you so much for being Jenny Hornby LPC: ⁓ huh. You Michelle Choairy: on the show. ⁓ it was talking to you. Thanks for all of that. ⁓ And ⁓ listeners, we'll be back next week. All right. Thanks everyone. Bye bye. Jenny Hornby LPC: Thanks, Michelle. Yes. Thanks, Michelle.