Latest / The Twin History Podcast / The American Civil War: Part 4: ''Men of Color, To Arms!''.

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The American Civil War: Part 4: ''Men of Color, To Arms!''. · The Twin History Podcast

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The Twin History Podcast brings together 2 Black Scotsmen, 2
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twins, 1 historian and one storyteller to explore the
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moments that shaped our world. The show features Joe McCann,
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the eldest twin and resident storyteller, the one always
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asking why any of this shit actually matters, alongside
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Johnny McCann, 13 minutes younger, and the historian.
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Equipped with the dates, the fact and the receipt, Every week
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they invite listeners to pull up a chair as they unpack some of
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history's greatest tales, The ones you think you know, the
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ones you've never heard, and the ones that hit different when
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told by them. Enjoy.
1:25
The and we are back at the Twin History podcast.
1:29
We're still talking about the American Civil War.
1:32
Which part are we on now, Johnny?
1:34
We're on Part 4 of the American Civil War.
1:36
That was maybe overly ambitious that we think we can do all this
1:39
in six parts. So, Ken Barnes, I apologise.
1:43
Yes, please do. But he couldn't even cover
1:45
everything in 10 parts. Yeah, we're not going to do it
1:48
in six parts, and that's very unlikely.
1:50
It is. Very unlikely.
1:51
We've got so many other topics I want to cover that we're not
1:55
going to be able to to do it probably in six parts.
1:58
So it's looking more like 8 parts.
2:00
What are we talking about today then, on this part of the Civil
2:04
War episodes? We'll be looking at primarily at
2:08
black regiments, obviously Douglas and Lincoln's role in
2:11
this as well, and maybe other things.
2:14
We'll see what the timer is when we're finished.
2:17
OK, all right. Shall we dive into it then?
2:21
Yeah, let's just dive straight in.
2:23
Let's talk about Frederick Douglass and Abraham Lincoln.
2:27
Johnny, tell us who Frederick Douglass was.
2:30
So Frederick Douglass was a freed slave who then went on to
2:34
become a great emancipator and an advocate for the rights of
2:39
black Americans. And he was also a famous auditor
2:43
and author. He was a great writer and
2:46
auditor of the day as well. Yes, you can't maybe change some
2:51
minds on what many white Americans or even European
2:58
whites perceived to be the lack of intelligence of blacks, and
3:04
Douglas showed that he was a great.
3:06
Intellectual To this day, there's still the prevailing
3:10
myth that Douglas did not write his own books.
3:14
Some people still believe that, I thought.
3:16
You were going to say something else entirely?
3:18
What? Some people on the right wing
3:20
think that blacks are intellectually inferior by
3:24
nature, by definition. I thought that's what you're
3:28
going to want to, which is obviously just the Lord of
3:31
nonsense. Is that absolute nonsense?
3:34
And anyone who thinks that a white person is just by nature,
3:39
by birth, intellectually superior to anyone else, that
3:44
person is idea, not the black person they're trying to
3:48
denigrate. Yeah.
3:50
Very well fit, but thank you. Frederick Douglass was a
3:54
intellectual heavyweight. He was OK.
3:57
Shall we get into Frederick Douglass role in the Civil War
4:02
and his relationship with Abraham Lincoln?
4:05
Yes, let's do it. Were they friends, these men?
4:09
They became acquaintances. I don't know if they were
4:11
friends. They met three times in their
4:15
lifetime and I think the last time was on Lincoln's
4:18
inauguration after he was inaugurated in 1865.
4:22
S Douglas wasn't at Ford's Theatre.
4:24
On the night Lincoln was killed, No, but the last time he saw him
4:27
would have been when Lincoln was inaugurated.
4:31
OK. So we can't be sure he was there
4:33
inaugurated for the second time, I'll say for his second term.
4:36
There's a little known story of Frederick Douglass.
4:39
He travelled to Scotland in 1846 to take on the Free Church of
4:44
Scotland, who had been accepting funds from sovereign churches in
4:48
America. So they were accepting the
4:51
profits of slavery, and Frederick Douglass came to face
4:55
them down and as famous Send Back the Money campaign where he
5:01
tried to shame them into returning the funds that they'd
5:04
received from these sovereign churches.
5:06
It's not very. Christian like is it?
5:08
The whole tenet of slavery is based upon Christianity.
5:12
That's how slavers justified their actions and that's how
5:18
slavery began, because they looked for a, well, scripture
5:22
that said black men or black people are inferior so they
5:25
could justify the act of slavery.
5:28
No, that, that's interesting. I don't want to get into a
5:30
theological discussion around slavery, but yeah, that is
5:34
interesting. Yeah.
5:35
Let's move on to Douglas and Lincoln.
5:38
Yeah. And so how did they differ,
5:41
these two men and their initial visions for emancipation?
5:45
As we said on an earlier episode, when Lincoln came to
5:48
power in 1860, he was obviously inaugurated in 61.
5:54
He did not see emancipation as the primary objective of the
6:01
Union. So Lincoln, he, when he comes to
6:06
power, he doesn't denounce slavery or the institution of
6:10
slavery in his inauguration speech, which greatly upset
6:14
Douglas at the time. And he was to evolve over time.
6:19
Lincoln, when he was in the White House, he urged Congress
6:22
to pass a bill that would make sure that runaway slaves were
6:28
not returned to a state of slavery to their owners.
6:33
And obviously after Antietam, we have the Emancipation
6:38
Proclamation in January 1860. Three OK Douglas was in the
6:45
audience at the inauguration. He'd probably was expecting
6:48
Lincoln to denounce slavery. He knew and the proponents of
6:52
slavery, yeah, he maybe should have, but he knew where where
6:57
Lincoln's heart lay. And he obviously criticised
7:00
Lincoln up until the point of the Emancipation Proclamation.
7:05
And it was after Antietam in 1862.
7:10
But it was It didn't become effective until January 1863.
7:16
OK, we spoke about that on an earlier episode we did.
7:19
Do we want to dive into that a little more?
7:22
What the significance of the Emancipation Proclamation to
7:25
Frederick Douglass? Yeah, if you realise that
7:28
Lincoln was serious about freeing the slaves and after
7:32
that, although the Emancipation Proclamation was imperfect, it
7:38
was imperfect. We went into that Douglas was
7:42
satisfied that by the end of the war, as long as the Union won,
7:46
all slaves would be freed. So he realises after that
7:51
proclamation that yeah, Lincoln would indeed freed the slaves.
7:55
As long as the Union won the war, yeah.
7:58
And if they hadn't? If they hadn't, who knows?
8:01
It's a hypothetical, we don't know what.
8:03
Would have happened. You're a historian.
8:05
That's what we're asking you. So you want me to come up with a
8:10
hypothesis? What, You want me to come up
8:12
with a hypothesis of what would have happened?
8:15
I said it earlier, Nevado. The historians argued that the
8:19
trade between Africa and Americas would have been
8:22
reopened by the South and slavery would have continued.
8:26
So the fact that the Confederacy, as they became
8:30
known, were willing to engage in what I would say was an act of
8:36
treason to ensure that slavery continued.
8:39
Yeah, of course, if they'd won the war, slavery would have
8:43
continued. And who knows when that would
8:46
have been changed, when abolition would have happened.
8:48
Sure would have happened at some point.
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And obviously we're going to Reconstruction and we'll show
8:53
what happened post war and how things then really change
8:58
anyway. But let's leave that until we
9:02
get into reconstruction. So yeah, I would hypothesise
9:06
that slavery would have continued if the South had won
9:10
the war. And how did Lincoln's views on
9:14
racial equality evolve between the outbreak of war and the end
9:18
of the war? At the start of war, it's not an
9:22
absolute priority for him that the slaves are freed.
9:27
He just wants to keep the Union together.
9:29
But isn't this a question that's ultimately going to have to be
9:32
answered during the war? So it may not be a priority, but
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it's something that he's going to have to deal with.
9:39
Yeah. Was what was his plan?
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What? The Union won the war and then
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he just lets the South return to keeping slaves.
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That would have been the plan. Like obviously when he first
9:50
came into power or when he first came into office, he stated that
9:55
all new estates should be 3 States and he stated that
10:00
obviously in the Union every state would be.
10:05
Every state at that time should be a three state.
10:07
Wasn't that enough for Douglas? He doesn't have to denounce
10:11
slavery, but he says every state, every new state that
10:15
joins a union will be a Free State.
10:17
Doesn't that effectively end the slave trade in the US?
10:22
Obviously it doesn't because it ends the trade, because you're
10:26
saying the trade, there's no new slaves being brought in.
10:29
Under federal law, there should be no new slaves being brought
10:31
in. They're being born in the
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Americas. So the descendants of Africans
10:37
who are now Americans are born in America, They're now
10:41
American. So the trade has ended legally,
10:44
but there's not an end to slavery as a practise and that
10:50
is a distinction. I'd have an episode on Thomas
10:54
Fisselwith the British state when they ended slavery, they
10:59
then end the practise of slavery in eighteen O 7.
11:03
But they outlawed the slave trade.
11:07
So you're not bringing in new slaves to British imperialistic
11:12
holdings, OK. Of course I understand, but I'm
11:16
saying but the practise continues.
11:18
Lincoln has effectively ended the slave trade by announcing
11:22
that any new state will be a Free State because we talked
11:25
about the the power voting bloc. And if they if there's more free
11:31
states voting than slaves states, then well, essentially
11:38
the slave trade would have ended.
11:40
Yeah, you can bring in legislation or try to bring in
11:42
legislation that will end the trade.
11:44
Yeah, good point. You've still got the 4 million
11:46
slaves in the South, but yeah. OK but they could have outlawed
11:52
slavery is my point. They could have put it through
11:55
Congress. Yeah.
11:55
Yeah. Got it through the Senate.
11:57
Yeah. OK, it's fair to say that
11:59
Douglas and Lincoln weren't great friends, but they did
12:02
share a common goal after 1863. They just became key allies and
12:09
trying to raise black regiments and emancipation.
12:12
So many historians show that without Douglas and without
12:18
Lincoln's friendship or flagship companionship that the
12:23
abolishment of slavery and the recruitment of black soldiers
12:26
would not have happened without their intervention.
12:30
OK, so Lincoln's dead by this point, but when the 13th and
12:35
14th amendments or ratify, Douglas asked for universal
12:41
suffrage at the time, black male suffrage, which obviously didn't
12:45
happen, and also after January 1863.
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Douglas is crucial in the recruitment of black soldiers
12:55
and this is after Stanton of the War Department issues a
13:00
statement saying that black soldiers could now be recruited
13:03
into the Union Army. Were black soldiers recruited
13:07
because of the major losses that the Union had suffered?
13:11
Antietam. I don't think it's because of
13:14
that. I think it's because of the
13:15
Emancipation Proclamation. So after that, Lincoln is
13:20
looking to free the slaves, all the slaves that come under union
13:26
territories. Union soldiers are freeing these
13:30
men, so Lincoln then legally wants to go through the process
13:35
of having these men become Union soldiers if they want to, if
13:39
they want to volunteer. And what was Douglass role in
13:42
this recruitment process? He wrote a great pamphlet called
13:46
Men of Colour to Arms, and he wasn't the only black recruiter,
13:50
but he's the most famous 1. So he takes up the mantle of
13:54
recruiting many black soldiers and bring them into the Union
13:58
army. But he just wants, he wants to
14:02
show that these people are equal to whites in combat, in life,
14:10
and basically in every other sense.
14:14
Has Douglas told himself to join?
14:16
He was Morgan Freeman joined and they were about the same age.
14:20
So Morgan Freeman joined the Glory.
14:23
Yeah, they would have been around the same age.
14:25
Yeah, the. Recruitment age, enlistment age
14:28
in America has been, is might be risen now.
14:31
So I think it's a quarter to us. So we're still told.
14:34
And we're not American, so we'll be fine.
14:38
But Douglas plays a pivotal role in recruiting Black soldiers for
14:42
these new Black All Black Regiments 10.
14:46
Percent of Union soldiers in the American Civil War were black
14:50
soldiers. That's a rather significant
14:53
number, isn't it? It is, and there were 166
14:56
regiments, although John Keegan did not think that they made
15:00
much of an impact. Mr Keegan, why not?
15:03
I can read what he said if you want an order.
15:06
Quote from him. Please do so.
15:07
About black soldiers, so he says.
15:10
We've mentioned the large numbers, 10% of the Union
15:13
number, Over 188,000 black soldiers signed up or
15:19
volunteered for the Union Army. But Keegan said of this, despite
15:24
their large numbers, black soldiers made disappointingly
15:27
little material contribution to the American Civil War Faced by
15:32
the ferocity of their sovereign antagonists on the battlefield,
15:35
they simply could not stand up to combat as white soldiers.
15:39
Dead Forest. Bedford Forest.
15:43
Their grimace persecutor was simply stating reality when he
15:47
said blacks could not cope with white souvenirs who in the last
15:50
resort were fighting to preserve slavery as a mastery of the
15:55
whites over blacks. What's the problem with that
15:57
statement, Joseph? Your friend Keegan sounds like a
16:01
white supremacist. No, what's the issue with?
16:04
What about the last sentence? Southern whites are looking to
16:08
preserve slavery as the mastery over of whites over blacks.
16:14
What's the issue with that? Well.
16:16
It's ultimately white supremacy. No, it's not so much is state
16:20
and white supremacy, but the the where I take issue is when
16:25
blacks also be fighting as doggedly as the white soldiers
16:30
so they are not returned to a state of slavery.
16:34
A lot of black soldiers who were captured who were born slaves or
16:38
hadn't been slaves or had already been freed in in many
16:42
instances they were returned to a state of slavery by the
16:46
Confederacy. So Keegan doesn't seem to be
16:48
taking that into account. Yeah, that's a fairpoint, but
16:52
your friend Keegan sounds like a Nazi.
16:55
He's not a Nazi, but he underplays the massive
17:00
contribution that black soldiers were to make in the American
17:04
Civil War. And I don't know why he did
17:06
that, but he's been shown by many other other historians that
17:12
his statement about black soldiers in the American Civil
17:15
War is flagrantly wrong, essentially.
17:20
And we've seen that throughout what I've studied, throughout
17:23
what I've read, what I've seen from other historians.
17:27
Without these black soldiers, I'm not going to say the war
17:32
would have been lost, but they made a huge contribution and
17:36
they made-up 10% of the Union soldiers.
17:39
And you have to remember, and we'll get into this later, Black
17:43
soldiers died at the same percentage as Confederacy
17:47
soldiers. The Confederacy had 18% losses
17:51
during the American Civil War. Black soldiers made-up 18% of
17:56
Union losses during the American Civil War.
17:59
Is it but plain devil's advocate?
18:01
Doesn't that prove your man's point?
18:03
No, it just shows that black soldiers maybe at points were
18:07
used as cannon fodder. OK.
18:10
And I was, I was just playing devil's advocate there.
18:12
But yeah. They were being facetious.
18:14
Yes, that's what Keegan probably could have argued.
18:17
But they suffered greater losses because they were not as skilled
18:21
as their. No, they suffered greater losses
18:23
because at many barrels they were used as cannon fodder and
18:27
at many times they didn't get. Remember, disease was a huge
18:31
killer in the American Civil War, and at many times they
18:34
didn't get the same medical attention as white counterparts,
18:39
particularly when they were taken prisoner by the
18:42
Confederacy. They weren't allowed medical
18:45
assistants in many instances. OK, so your friend John Keegan.
18:53
My friend. Said the black regiments
18:56
disgraced themselves in battle. He doesn't say it and ran away
19:00
like cowards. No, A lot of Confederate leaders
19:05
said that black soldiers ran from battle many times, but it
19:10
was all propaganda. Yeah.
19:11
Propaganda. Yeah.
19:12
It's to show that these people are not worthy of battle and
19:17
they see them as less than human.
19:18
You were saying about the Bible. So they see blacks as less than
19:23
human. So that's why there are many
19:26
false accounts of black soldiers fleeing the battlefield.
19:30
And there are many occasions when white soldiers fled the
19:33
battlefield. Look at the Battle will run.
19:37
Yeah, we discussed. That a lot of soldiers drowned
19:40
in the river as they tried to escape.
19:43
Fleeing a battlefield when you're up against greater
19:46
numbers. It's not unique to black
19:48
soldiers. It's not unique and it's also
19:50
not a sign of characters, because if you're being
19:53
slaughtered and you know you're losing and a retreat is called,
19:59
there's nothing with that. What's the feeling in the North
20:02
about these black regiments? There is general, I don't want
20:07
to say suspicion, but some people question whether these
20:11
black soldiers will be able to meet combat head on when it
20:17
arrives. Will they be able to rise to the
20:19
challenge? Many of the black soldiers were,
20:24
I think we mentioned that in the last episode, their contraband.
20:26
So their freed slaves or slaves sort of escaped into Northern
20:32
territories or Northern states. So many of them joined the Union
20:38
army. So there there's that belief
20:41
that they're slaves, so will they be able to fight and
20:45
combat? Also, interestingly, you're
20:49
asking about the North. What about the South now?
20:53
What about them do? You think that they have black
20:56
soldiers? I don't know.
20:58
They then 1861 or 1862 Patrick Claiborne, who's a general in
21:06
the Confederacy army or a captain, I should say.
21:10
What do the South have an abundance of the numbers?
21:13
What did I just say about the Union?
21:15
Who the Union were recruitment from slaves, slaves.
21:19
They have 4 million slaves. So Claiborne, they're obviously
21:23
not all male, but a large percentage of them were males.
21:26
So Claiborne said to the Confederacy Congress that we
21:31
should be using these men as soldiers and Jefferson Davis the
21:36
president, he baulked at that. But Lee, even Lee, as the war
21:43
went on and the Confederacy numbers and casualties rose, he
21:48
suggested that they look at that source of men and materials and
21:55
raise some regiments. And they Death 2 regiments were
21:58
raised in the South, and they were raised in March of 65, but
22:04
they didn't see any combat. By the time they were ready to
22:07
fight, the war was over. And one of those regiments
22:11
actually switched sides and fought on the side of the Union.
22:15
Yeah. When the Union liberated the
22:16
part of the South they were in, they switched sides and fought
22:20
on the side of the Union. So I thought, well, anyone could
22:22
see that coming. Could they that obviously these
22:25
slaves are not going to fight for their captors?
22:28
They're not going to fight for their captors, but Claybourne
22:30
made a great point where you've got all these men who are all
22:36
physically fat, they're young. They're all fighting age.
22:39
They're all fighting age, why not use them?
22:41
But Davis obviously was such a horrendous racist, he just
22:45
couldn't see past his own racism to that might have been a good
22:49
idea. I don't think it was.
22:51
It would have been a terrible idea.
22:53
I think it would have been. A good idea.
22:54
You would have face mutiny. You would have fate.
22:57
These men with, like you said, this, they switched sides, one
23:02
of the two regiments which you can completely understand.
23:05
So I think you, they, you would face, you would face a whole
23:10
plethora of issues. One of them would be desertion.
23:13
One of them would be these soldiers switching sides, which
23:16
they absolutely would have rightfully done.
23:19
Jefferson. He'd be letting loose an army
23:22
within his own states. The black soldiers would
23:26
rightfully not fight for the South.
23:30
Would, but I don't know, I disagree that you've got the men
23:33
there. So if they switch sides during
23:35
battle, they might, but it's unlikely that would happen and
23:40
there's millions of them so. Why would you say it's unlikely?
23:43
Like I said, one of the two regiments switch sides at the
23:46
the first chance to do. This is towards the end of the
23:49
war, when they know they're losing, when they know the South
23:53
was losing. So maybe at the start of the
23:55
war? You're not going to fight
23:56
ferociously for your captors. You're you would be fighting to
24:00
keep yourself in slavery. Why would you fight for that?
24:03
You wouldn't. Lately agreed with the idea.
24:07
We agreed with it when they had suffered so many losses.
24:11
Yeah, that and the war was ending at that point.
24:14
He doesn't say. At the start of the war, let's
24:16
get these men armed and get them fighting because as a brilliant
24:21
strategist, as you went to great lengths to see, Yeah, he would,
24:26
he would have realised that these men are not going to fight
24:30
on the side of the South. They're not going to fight to
24:33
keep themselves in chains because that's what they would
24:35
have been doing. OK, OK.
24:38
I don't know what other historians think of that, but
24:40
that would be my take. I I just can't see.
24:44
And as I said, we have the evidence of that regiment
24:47
changing sides as soon as the the Union soldiers waved at
24:50
them, they were OK, we're free. So let's that.
24:53
And you wouldn't blame them, would you?
24:54
Because of. Course you wouldn't blame them.
24:56
They were free at that point once they switched sides, and
24:59
they would have known as well. If you became a Union soldier,
25:02
you were freed. Yes, of.
25:04
Course. So I think, yeah, but let's move
25:07
on. Yeah, we are moving on.
25:09
That's it. OK.
25:11
All right. Anything more to say on that?
25:14
Isn't it fair to say that despite the Confederacy's
25:17
propaganda, that the Black regiments did prove their combat
25:21
effectiveness at places like Port Hudson and Milliken's Bend?
25:26
They did and that is a very good question.
25:29
Also, we maybe spoke author about discrimination.
25:33
Obviously black soldiers face discrimination.
25:38
Who it was, they may even face it today.
25:40
It wasn't until 1949 where the army was legally segregated.
25:48
So after the Civil War ended, obviously during the Civil War,
25:52
black regiment would fight alongside white regiments and
25:56
there'd be a mixture of white and black soldiers within
26:00
regiments. That changed after the American
26:03
Civil War, but it was actually Harry Truman, the president
26:08
after FDR, the president who dropped the bomb on Hiroshima,
26:12
who desegregated the armed forces in 1848.
26:17
He also Truman. 1948. So did I say 1848?
26:23
I'm stuck in the past. Truman was a racist.
26:27
Of course he's a racist. He's from Missouri.
26:30
He's born in the 1890s. He was a notorious racist.
26:35
But he did desegregate the armed forces and he also pushed
26:40
Congress to put through an anti luncheon bell.
26:46
So until he became president wasn't against federal law to
26:51
lunch people. So he put that through.
26:54
Truman put that through, but he was a racist.
26:56
Some historians argue that he wouldn't have thought the atomic
27:01
bomb on a white populace. I disagree with that entirely.
27:05
But of course he was a racist. He made that infamous remark
27:09
where *** are made from mud, white people are made from stars
27:15
and dust, and Chinaman and everyone else are made from
27:19
whatever remains. There's something to that
27:21
effect. OK, but he had no say in the
27:23
Civil War, right? He.
27:25
Was born, Yeah, he was born in Missouri in.
27:27
The 1890s or late 1880s. So of course, black soldiers
27:33
during the Civil War would have faced upon discrimination.
27:37
There are even accounts of Union soldiers putting on blackface
27:40
shows and they forced their fellow soldiers, their fellow
27:45
black soldiers to sometimes participate, to sometimes
27:50
partake in these shows for quote unquote entertainment.
27:57
But obviously, when they showed their worth in battles such as
28:03
at Port Hudson and Milicans bent, this did go some way to
28:06
changing the mindsets of their fellow white Union soldiers.
28:13
Should. We talk about how black
28:14
regiments performed at places like Port Hudson.
28:17
Yeah, Port Hudson. This would have been May, the
28:21
end of May 1863. Black soldiers as part of the
28:25
Army of Occupation showed there were many of them died in that
28:29
battle. Many of them showed their
28:32
bravery and Malikan's banned. This battle was crucial and
28:37
taken Beckersburg. I don't know if you remember we
28:40
mentioned that during the segment on Gettysburg because it
28:44
fell the day after Gettysburg. I can't remember.
28:48
I can't remember Reckersburg fell if I Grant led the Union
28:53
army at that battle, so that fell to the Union the day after
28:57
Gettysburg. So without Malikan's banned,
29:02
this would not have happened. At Milliken's end, the regiment
29:07
were led by General Lorenzo Thomas.
29:10
So that's would have been the 9th and 11th Louisiana Infantry,
29:15
African descent. That is what the infantry were
29:18
named as. So July 7th the Confederate
29:22
attack is repelled that militants bent and these
29:25
regiments took part in that in repellent or repulsing the
29:31
Confederate forces. And that.
29:35
Go. Ahead How were they?
29:37
What was the response to these black regiments helping to repel
29:41
the this attack? They were acclaimed by the white
29:45
soldiers who had witnessed that so other black.
29:48
Regiments had saw combat at this point, so the 14 coloured
29:53
infantry of Tennessee, they had went up against the very first
29:57
Mississippi Infantry and the Colonel of the 31st, he claimed
30:03
his name was Marcus de Lafayette.
30:05
He claimed that their soldiers, the black soldiers of the 14th,
30:10
were drunk and fled at the first sign of trouble.
30:13
But this was demonstrably false because the Union soldiers had
30:18
witnessed the battle and the press had witnessed the battle.
30:21
They were lavish in their praise of the 14th, that then and the
30:25
14th. They went on to write Major J
30:28
John B Hunt's Army of the Tennessee 15th on December 1864
30:34
in Nashville. So at this point, the
30:36
Confederacy. Is absolutely on it's knees.
30:40
The Union looked to take Florida, which is the sovereign
30:44
most remote point of the theatre of war, during the American
30:49
Civil War, and many soldiers involved in this operation were
30:54
from black regiments. And did they manage to take
30:58
Florida IT? Wasn't taken during the war.
31:01
There are very few accounts of the black regiments that fought
31:04
there and even the Union General and Provisional governor of
31:09
Florida. He claimed that black soldiers
31:12
fought in no battles during Florida and PEN which is again
31:19
shown to be false. So black units predominantly
31:23
made-up the engagements that took place in Florida.
31:26
There were they were involved in 32 separate engagements, which
31:30
was more than the white regiments who only were involved
31:34
in around about 15. So Florida, what is unique about
31:41
Florida? What's unique about it?
31:44
Yeah, the many things it's. Shape, it's shape and what
31:48
surrounds it. The keys, The marshes.
31:52
Yeah, the marshes, the swamps. So naval operations were crucial
31:56
in Florida. After these.
31:59
There were many amphibious operations in Florida and around
32:04
about 50% of Floridians were black at that time.
32:08
So there was high recruitment. Into the union numbers, but
32:14
ultimately the campaign failed. The campaign failed, so there
32:17
was an incident in May of 1864 where the USS Colombian was
32:24
attacked by Confederacy. It's a shepherd.
32:27
With this, it's a shepherd. The Confederacy was led by
32:31
Captain JJ Dickerson, who was known as a swamp fox, so the
32:36
ship was destroyed in blacks. They're supposedly made-up the
32:40
number of deaths on that ship, so around about 47 men died and
32:45
most of them were black. And at that time as well, 45% of
32:49
Union regiments in Florida were made-up of black soldiers and
32:54
naval volunteers. OK.
32:57
Is there anything else we should know about these black regiments
33:01
campaign in in Florida? I.
33:03
Mentioned earlier about the East Gulf Blockadium and West Gulf
33:07
Blockadium squadrons, Yeah, black volunteers made-up 15% of
33:12
these squadrons. So during that time around,
33:17
about 5 Medals of Honour were awarded to to black soldiers or
33:23
naval personnel who took part in those campaigns.
33:26
But remember they weren't all awarded when the soldiers were
33:31
alive. A lot of this would have
33:34
happened after they died. I think Barack Obama awarded a
33:38
soldier from the Civil War, a black soldier, a Medal of
33:41
Honour. So.
33:42
Obviously. He was long dead.
33:44
He wasn't around to collect that.
33:46
He wasn't around to collect that.
33:48
But they would have been some of the first black recipients of
33:51
the Medal of Honour. The very first one, yeah, was
33:55
William Carney from the 54th of Massachusetts.
33:59
So we're going to do an entire episode on that black regiment.
34:03
Black soldiers faced the discrimination in the North.
34:09
In the South, what would happen to them if they were captured?
34:12
So what was the Confederate policy regarding black Union
34:15
soldiers captured in battle? It would evolve throughout the
34:19
war, but when black soldiers first became part of the Union
34:22
Army, the Confederate Congress issued A decree, and this was
34:25
May 1863. Shall I read it?
34:28
Yes, please do. OK.
34:31
All negroes, slave or free, taking an arm should be turned
34:34
over to the authorities in the state which they are captured
34:38
and their officers should be tried by Confederate military
34:41
tribunals and be subject at the discretion of the court and the
34:45
president to the death penalty. So it was evolving, but
34:48
essentially it was stated by any black soldier who was taken in
34:55
arms against the Confederacy should be executed on the spot.
35:00
And there were many atrocities that took place that we can get
35:03
into. This evolved after the War
35:05
Department issued, the Union War Department issued General Order
35:10
252. And that's just essentially, if
35:14
you kill our black prisoners of war, we'll kill your Confederate
35:20
prisoners of war. So if you kill one of ours,
35:22
we'll kill one of yours. If you mistreat one of ours,
35:26
we'll mistreat one of yours. How did this house react to
35:29
this? They again they changed their
35:33
what they were saying, they said.
35:35
They changed their policy. They changed their policy.
35:37
They said, OK, if they were Born Free, if they were free at the
35:42
start of the war, the black soldiers, we will release them
35:46
if you release our soldiers. But Lincoln and Stanton said
35:52
absolutely not. And Grant said absolutely not,
35:55
and said either it's a policy for all or capture soldiers or
35:59
just for none, and your guys will be treated the same as our
36:03
guys. That was very noble of Abraham
36:06
Lincoln and Ulysses S Grant. It was.
36:10
There was a Fort Pillow massacre of 1864 that simplified
36:14
Confederate treatment of black prisoners of war.
36:17
Can you tell us a little bit about that?
36:19
Yeah. So on April 12, 1864, Fort
36:22
Pillow of Mississippi Nathan Bedford Forrest.
36:27
Who founded the clan? He founded the clan.
36:30
OK, You did. I know.
36:33
OK, that's fine. Why is that funny?
36:35
That's not funny. But anyway, he was a captain
36:40
during the American Civil War, a Confederate captain, obviously.
36:44
So Fort Pillow Sherman asked General Stephen Halbert to
36:52
vacate the Fort. He said it's not strategically
36:55
important, Just get your man out of there.
36:58
But Hallebert went against orders.
37:01
He does obeyed orders. He put his men into the Fort and
37:06
the Confederacy laid siege to the Fort on April 12, 1864.
37:11
He to be fair to Forrest, I don't think this would have
37:15
mattered, but he gave Hobart the option to surrender, which he
37:19
turned down South. 62% of Union forces were slaughtered and many
37:25
of the black soldiers were killed when they were on their
37:28
knees begging for mercy or clemency.
37:32
Accounts vary, but some say that Forrest rode on his horse and he
37:38
was begging his men to not slaughter soldiers who were
37:43
trying to surrender, whether they were black or white.
37:46
But they didn't listen and it was seen as a warning to blacks
37:51
who had enlisted or who had planned to enlist that the same
37:56
thing will happen to your if you're to join the Union Army.
38:00
So after this, the Union sent General Samuel Sturgis to
38:05
capture and arrest Bedford Forrest for what had happened at
38:08
Fort Pillow. But Forrest was again a
38:12
brilliant tactician. So June 10th of the same year,
38:17
they both meet in Mississippi and Bryce Crossroads and Sturgis
38:22
is best AIDS and he survives. He surrenders, but then he's
38:28
dismissed by Lincoln. So as you said, Boris went on to
38:32
play a key role in the establishment of the KKK after
38:38
the American Civil War. I guess I have the answer to
38:41
this question, but what were conditions like for black
38:44
prisoners of war held by Confederate forces?
38:46
The main presidents were enemy combatants at that time.
38:50
In the South were Andersonsville, Bell Island and
38:55
Salisbury. The South argued that if we
38:59
treat these men as equals, then the whole premise for being at
39:04
war falls because we went to war saying that these slaves.
39:12
Are not equal. Are not equal.
39:14
So then if we're treating black primers of war as equals, then
39:20
basically the whole premise of war is a lie.
39:24
Yeah, yeah. That's not a fairpoint, but.
39:28
So for most of these men, the best case scenario was they'd be
39:32
returning to slavery, even if they'd been Born Free, I should
39:35
say. So many were just executed on
39:39
the spot, like at Fort Pillow, but many were took to these
39:45
prisons and they were Mr. Even the whites who were also
39:49
prisoners, said the blacks suffered more than they did in
39:52
terms of disease, in terms of rations and such.
39:56
Congress, they issued a report after the Civil War trying to
40:01
establish how many black prisoners had died in sovereign
40:06
captivity of war, had died in sovereign captivity.
40:09
And they came to an arbitrary figure of 79, which was
40:14
incredibly low considering there were some accounts of like black
40:18
prisoners. 50 black prisoners from one regiment being killed
40:23
or not surviving captivity. So I think 79 is very low and.
40:29
It's not an accurate figure, is it?
40:31
Not an accurate figure. OK.
40:34
And how did black soldiers respond to the Confederate
40:37
policy of refusing on prisoner of war status?
40:40
I think they just responded with dignity, don't they?
40:44
They knew that they were on the right side, the history.
40:48
They knew what they were fighting for.
40:50
As we said, 18% of casualties on the Union side during the Civil
40:56
War were black. Many died from disease on these
41:03
prisons. Disease was a major killer
41:06
during the Civil War. We'll just touch on it briefly.
41:09
Like typhoids in particular. There was a 30% and mortality
41:15
rate amongst Union soldiers. It would have been similar with
41:21
soldiers and two parts of the deaths in the American Civil War
41:25
out there, 650,000 were from disease.
41:28
So you've got typhoid, smallpox, malaria, measles, dysentery.
41:34
One thing that always stopped with me was the assassination of
41:38
President Garfield in 1881. Andrew Garfield?
41:42
Yeah. President Garfield.
41:44
Yeah. OK, what's stuck with you?
41:46
Just the fact he would have survived his wounds if not for
41:49
the incompetence of his doctors. So they don't know anything
41:53
about infection control, so they don't wash their hands before
41:57
treating his wounds and he died and agonising death.
42:00
I think he took three months to die.
42:02
So you can say that sanitation at that time was poor.
42:08
But out of the Civil War we came up with a better understanding
42:13
of diseases like smallpox, measles, dysentery, typhoid, and
42:19
a lot of science that would help to battle these diseases in the
42:24
future came through the actions of medics in the American Civil
42:28
War. And did there was Joseph Lister
42:30
not kicking about at this time? He possibly was just.
42:34
OK, so before we finish up on the conditions that black
42:41
prisoner of war faced in the South, we should talk a little
42:46
about the Battle of Petersburg and the fate of the black
42:49
soldiers captured at that battle.
42:52
Can you go on to that, Johnny? Yeah.
42:54
So this was part of Grant's Overland campaign.
42:56
We mentioned them on the last episode, the 9th Corps, OK, so
43:00
they predominantly black regiment, Army of Potomac, as I
43:05
said, first black Army to enter Washington.
43:09
So they on the 9th of July 1864, they were meant to lead the
43:14
charge the crater OK, but General needs vacillated and he
43:19
decided to send in a white regiment instead.
43:23
The white regiment were routed. So then the name for deployed
43:27
and almost a third of those men fell.
43:31
Nine members of the regiment because of the bravery went on
43:35
to receive the medal of Warner. But they were killed viciously
43:40
by the Confederacy, and again we see men trying to surrender at
43:44
this time who were just savagely killed as they tried to
43:49
surrender the Confederacy. Death marched a lot of these men
43:53
and then executed them under the Articles of War.
43:57
It's basically a war crime, isn't?
43:59
It the enemy compartment is surrendered and you're still
44:03
going to execute them. But I think we covered a lot of
44:06
ground in that black prisoners of war and what they faced when
44:13
they were captured by the. Regiments in general, there's
44:17
stuff we have left out, like the Battle of Oristy in Florida.
44:22
After that, the Union just abandoned Florida.
44:25
It's OK, It's not worth it. It's not that it's not worth it,
44:28
but we're just, we're not going to take it.
44:31
So it can't be tamed. It can't be tamed.
44:34
So let's wait until the end of the war.
44:36
And during that battle as well, many of the black regiment were
44:43
executing the Union disaster. Almost 2000 soldiers killed,
44:47
many of them black, Florida abandoned.
44:50
Thereafter, again, black soldiers are massacred, trying
44:54
to retreat, trying to surrender. There was so much noise that a
44:59
Confederate soldier when he was on his horse and he said to one
45:04
of the captains, what's going on over there?
45:06
And he just said we're shooting *** We spoke about disparities
45:12
in the Union Army. We had a black private who
45:16
fought there who wrote to Congress saying, do we not take
45:20
up the same length of ground in a graveyard that others do?
45:24
Does the ball obviously referring to the pellets,
45:28
muskets? Yeah, the ball, does it not miss
45:31
the black man and strike the white, nor miss the white and
45:33
strike the black? And I had a lot of stuff on
45:38
Charles. I asked Durham, who wrote a lot
45:41
about the battle or the occupation of Jacksonville.
45:45
OK, I think, yeah, let's speak about Charles.
45:48
Charles Durham, who was born in Bangor, he was at the Battle of
45:54
Augusty in Florida. And after that battle he was
45:57
made a Lieutenant, which was probably the highest rank that
46:01
any black soldier rose to during, yeah, or during the
46:07
Civil War, because there were only 90 black officers out of
46:11
all the soldiers who served. I mean, there was close to
46:15
180,000 black soldiers. So he wrote a lot about the
46:21
occupation of Jacksonsville, but we'll go into that when we go
46:25
into the 54th of Massachusetts. Yeah, we'll do a separate
46:30
episode on them a full. Single episode on them.
46:34
Anything you want to say, Johnny, before we?
46:36
Finished episode. All the evidence clearly refutes
46:39
what Keegan said or what Keegan wrote about black soldiers
46:43
during the American Civil War, because they did make a huge
46:47
contribution. And when we go into the 54th of
46:50
Massachusetts, we'll further evidence this on a later
46:54
episode. They fought nobly and they
46:57
fought with valour. Well, the reason we're leaving
47:00
the 54th for a separate episode is because they're the most
47:04
celebrated black regiment from the American Civil War, So they
47:09
really do deserve a separate episode.
47:12
But as we've shown in the regiments we've tried to get
47:17
into on this episode, they weren't the only black regiment.
47:22
Yeah, I think many people believe they were the first
47:24
black regiment, but that wasn't the case.
47:26
No, they weren't. It was the regiment out of South
47:29
Carolina that was the first black regiment.
47:32
But they were the ones that got their own films.
47:34
So everyone knows everyone knows them.
47:37
So 54 from Massachusetts. I had the question about
47:40
Confederacy, Confederacy, prisoners of war.
47:43
Do we know how they were treated?
47:45
Just for a bit of balance and just so you.
47:49
As I said, Lincoln issued that order.
47:51
I think it was 252 when the Confederacy said they would just
47:55
kill black soldiers or prisoners of war on the spot.
47:59
If you send one of ours to the hospital, we'll send one of
48:02
yours to the morgue, OK? They're untouchable.
48:06
You could have done that in a Scottish accent.
48:08
He's Irish in the film He. Just does a Scottish.
48:12
Accent. So he won the despite the
48:14
Academy Award. He was a sympathy vote.
48:17
No, he's brilliant on that film. I love that film.
48:20
That's from Crane Spotted. I know it is, but he's growing
48:23
in that film Despite that. So they should have what?
48:25
There are no Scottish people in Chicago, and evidently not but
48:30
the 1920s, as I said, 30s. There weren't.
48:35
Is there anything more we should add here, Johnny?
48:37
Anything else you want to talk about?
48:39
I think in general we've neglected the role of women in
48:43
the American Civil War. So we could maybe look into
48:47
that. I've not neglected them.
48:48
Maybe you have. You're the one in the driver's
48:51
seat. I'm the passenger.
48:53
You're the misogynist. On the podcast.
48:56
Oh, you are. We almost got shut down after a
48:59
misogynistic joke you made. So anyway, let's yeah, let's
49:05
talk about women's role in a war.
49:08
How did the enslaved women experience the Civil War
49:11
differently from free black and white women in the South?
49:14
That that's like back. To what we were saying about the
49:18
soldiers who joined the Union army, the freed slaves.
49:22
So obviously women didn't have that option.
49:25
So women particularly, Why not? Because there weren't female
49:30
soldiers at the time. I'm asking you the question.
49:33
There obviously weren't female soldiers at the time.
49:36
Obviously I went to sexism and people just believe them.
49:40
They weren't like good soldiers. But there are accounts of female
49:44
soldiers on both pretended to be men.
49:47
There's plenty of accounts of women in the Civil War, so maybe
49:51
we should touch on that and link it back to the whole idea of
49:55
freed slaves or the black prisoners of.
49:58
War. Let's touch on it then.
50:00
Was there insurgencies we should speak of?
50:03
Is there any role? Is there any incidents you'd
50:06
like to speak about specifically?
50:08
Glomp, in her magnificent research on women in the Civil
50:11
War, she pinpointed a slave insurgency in the low country in
50:17
the Carolinas. This would have been in the dine
50:20
embers of the war. So it would have been late March
50:24
1865. And we'll get to Appomattox,
50:27
maybe on the next episode. So the war is coming to a close
50:30
at this point. So what happens in this
50:32
insurgency? It takes place in Pineville, SC
50:36
so there's it's a sugar rice plantation and also the planter
50:42
class winter homes there. So they would spend their
50:46
winters near this plantation. It was a very affluent area.
50:53
Yeah, as you can imagine, As you can imagine.
50:56
So there was a huge slavery uprising, insurgency.
51:01
And the records show a glum shows in her research that the
51:05
insurgency was led by women called Rose.
51:09
Rose, who was she? Can you tell her?
51:11
Is there anything about her? So she was one of the slaves on
51:14
the plantation, Her son, he also took part in the insurgency.
51:20
And she had very detailed knowledge of the geography of
51:24
the area of the houses. And you have to remember as the
51:28
Union were closing in, a lot of these cowardly slave owners.
51:33
What do you think they didn't? Started shipping their slaves.
51:37
No, no. What did they do?
51:40
You've learned nothing from all their time Together podcast.
51:45
They what? What would you do if you're
51:47
freed? My slaves?
51:48
No, My God, if you're a Nazi commander, I ship myself and the
51:54
Allies are posing, and what would you do?
51:57
You shoot yourself? No, many of them fled and just
52:00
left their slaves, Oh for Christ's sake, their own
52:02
devices. Have you never read Shutter
52:04
Island? Have you, have you never been in
52:08
a high school history classroom when my kids would have came up
52:12
with that answer? I gave you 3 answers.
52:15
There, go on. So she LED this revolt, and Josh
52:21
Gulf just shows that the insurgency spread around about
52:27
30 to 40 miles around that part of the Carolinas.
52:31
But that's women Rose. That's all we know of her.
52:35
Her name. That's it, That's all.
52:37
We don't know what happened to her.
52:39
She was. Killed.
52:40
She was killed. The insurgency failed and she
52:42
was killed by the slavers, not by the slavers.
52:47
For a group of men. They were called scouts, so
52:50
these would be men who had basically either deserted the
52:56
Confederacy or were home on leave from serving in the
53:02
confederacy. Also the a lot of them were just
53:06
vigilantes who wanted, for lack of a better term, to kill ***
53:12
with impunity. Great, thank you for sharing
53:15
that joke. Perhaps roses killed by these
53:18
men. Roses killed by these.
53:20
Men and the reason we know of Rose is what did I say about
53:24
slaves early in an early episode?
53:28
And the Thomas Fisselwood episode, what did they not leave
53:32
records, a written record? So Rose comes to life, is giving
53:38
flesh and blood through the sovereign women who she would
53:42
have been working for. So there've been uprisings in
53:47
the Carolinas as early our slave insurgencies, as early as
53:51
November 1861. So this one takes place in
53:56
spring 1865. And Pineville is the epicentre.
54:00
But as I said, it's spread 3040 miles wide.
54:03
But you're a historian. There was obviously uprisings
54:07
before that, before the civil war.
54:09
Yeah, of course, yeah. But we're looking at the Civil
54:11
War here. Yeah, but the way you're
54:13
speaking, it's as if that's the first uprising that ever
54:15
happened. No, I'm saying that it's not the
54:18
first uprising. OK, go on.
54:20
As I said, many of these slave owners, they were cowards.
54:23
The unions closing in, 12% of the 4 million Southern slaves by
54:30
this point had also fled from capture.
54:34
So they just, they fled. As I've said earlier this
54:37
episode, many of them joined the union, took up arms.
54:41
Many of them just stood and fought.
54:44
So many of them took on their slave owners.
54:47
I bet you bumped. Back.
54:49
So many of them waited. You lose, you're finished.
54:54
OK, many of them were waiting for the Union to to come in, but
55:01
they weren't standing on ceremony.
55:03
They were taking matters into their own hands.
55:06
So some historians argue that slaves didn't have any agency at
55:11
this time because without the Union, they're not being freed
55:16
if the Union soldiers don't come in to the areas where they're
55:19
being held. But Rosie's insurgency and other
55:22
insurgencies on the South Shore, that wasn't true.
55:25
So even though Rosie's insurgency was ultimately a
55:30
failure and it was quelled, it was quelled.
55:33
It did. That records are contradictory,
55:37
that all the slave insurgents get killed, all the leaders get
55:41
killed, that some of them escape.
55:43
There's records that some of them managed to get to Richmond
55:47
to hook up with the Union army or just to take refuge with the
55:52
Union army. But Rose, she definitely was
55:55
killed on the plantation. So the is there anything else we
55:59
should add about that the insurgency or?
56:02
So uprising Charlene Rafnell, she became a famous writer after
56:07
the Civil War, and she kept a diary on the plantations.
56:11
So she wrote of the insurgency that several made their escape
56:16
in the woods, but the ringleaders were killed. 15 were
56:19
killed. Our force was 56.
56:22
That of the Negroes was not known.
56:24
So she's saying that some of them escaped, but there's some
56:27
records that suggest they were all killed.
56:30
But it's just unfortunate. And I said this in the festival
56:33
with episode That Rose. No one listened to that so.
56:35
No one listened to that. Rose is shown to be a remarkable
56:40
woman, but is we're seen her through the eyes of these slave
56:45
owners or wives of slave owners, they obviously have their
56:48
prejudices. But Rose is shown to be a
56:51
remarkable woman and. She's a remarkable figure.
56:53
Yes, remarkable figure. And it's just unfortunate that
56:57
we don't know much about much more about her than what these
57:01
women say. But Rose, can we not find out?
57:04
No, you can. If you find any records on her,
57:08
you're the historian. Isn't that your job?
57:10
It is my job. But to bring the past to life.
57:13
A lot of these slave owners who left their properties, these
57:16
houses would be used by the slave insurgencies just
57:20
basically as a command centre. OK, we'll set up here.
57:25
And Rose was the one running operations from one of the
57:28
houses. And the sovereign women were
57:30
appalled, said that they had been made to suffer great
57:35
indignities. And one of them dignities was
57:37
that they had to do the road washing because their shaves no
57:41
longer were willing to work. So they were complaining about
57:45
hands to their own washing. These women, they called them
57:48
deceptions. So houses were ransacked, slave
57:52
abandonment with Union soldiers. Many of the slaves, when the
57:55
Union soldiers came in, they left with them.
57:58
And as I said, they had to do their own washroom.
58:02
But Rose knew about the topography of the area.
58:07
She knew about the landscape, She knew about the season.
58:11
She was a remarkable woman. And as I said, the revolt was
58:16
over by the 1st of April. It lasted 5 days.
58:20
So it started on the same day that General Sheridan crossed
58:25
James River with grass and Army of the Potomac, like top of that
58:30
point. So that was March 26th.
58:33
So it lasted about 5 or 6 days. But it was proud that some
58:38
historians have said. What do you think Rose and other
58:42
slaves could have done differently to ensure their
58:46
freedom? What did they say?
58:48
What do you think what they could have fled?
58:51
They could have fled, but what else could they have done?
58:53
What point are we at in the war? They said they dying embers.
58:58
They dying embers. So some people say that they
59:01
would have been freed within a matter of days.
59:03
They should have just waited. They should have just waited.
59:05
But Glove shows that. How were they to know?
59:08
How were? They to know?
59:08
Yeah. Excellent.
59:09
How were they to know? They did?
59:11
No. Excellent.
59:13
We're not in class. They didn't know what was going
59:15
on. So you have to applaud their
59:20
bravery. And slaves had a long history of
59:24
resistance. They weren't all the benevolent
59:27
slave that the South depicted them as.
59:31
So many of these slaves knew about their dignities they were
59:35
facing and did all they could to get out of bondage.
59:41
And as I said, they had their own agency.
59:43
So it's very important that people don't think that all
59:47
slaves just went, just accepted their fate, because as we know,
59:52
that is not the case. But even those who did, you
59:55
could hardly blame them, could you?
59:57
No, you could. Hardly blame.
59:59
If you escaped or if you rebelled, you would be met with
1:00:02
the hangman's nurse. Yeah.
1:00:05
Well, that's true. Glum also argues that under the
1:00:09
Emancipation Proclamation that Rose should have been treated
1:00:13
under the terms of that, but her mistress died and then she was
1:00:18
auctioned off instead and she was separated from her family.
1:00:22
So Glum says she's beyond the protection of the law.
1:00:25
She's now stateless, now almost a non citizen and she doesn't
1:00:29
have the option of joining the Union army so.
1:00:33
The Union army not share their battle plans with her and let
1:00:36
her know that the war was almost over.
1:00:38
The Sherman not deliver a telegram and say we will be
1:00:43
freeing you soon. I'm not even going to respond to
1:00:46
that because. You're.
1:00:46
Just you're just belittle on. That I'm not.
1:00:49
What are you, Nat Turner? At some point we need to do an
1:00:54
episode on that Doctor Prisen, don't we?
1:00:56
We can do that, but we're not doing it during this.
1:00:59
Yeah, not Jonas. Remember the Birth of a Nation
1:01:02
movie? The actor was what was his name?
1:01:05
Not not Parker or Nate Parker. I can't remember.
1:01:09
And he played, he wrote, directed it and starred.
1:01:11
But he. Turned out to be a rapist, I.
1:01:13
Remember, that's where I was getting to.
1:01:15
Christ's sake. Am I allowed to tell my own
1:01:17
story here? It was being spoken about in
1:01:21
award circles that this one was going to sweep the Luskers and
1:01:24
the Globes and then that. Story broke where?
1:01:28
Nat or Nate? Is it Nate?
1:01:31
I can't remember but he obviously had raped a woman or
1:01:34
would, I'm sorry, he had raped a woman, had been charged with
1:01:38
raping a woman. He was found not guilty in
1:01:41
court. I think it was a technicality.
1:01:43
Yeah, he was guilty. It was a very hard.
1:01:47
Time. OK, he was guilty.
1:01:48
Is there anything else on Rose that remind us how she met her
1:01:52
demise again? There's contradictory reports,
1:01:55
but Alice Palmer, again, one of the slave owners wives, she
1:02:01
wrote that Rose was taken up sometime after by the scalps and
1:02:05
was disposed of. She was hung and she's very
1:02:09
smart. When she writes that down, you
1:02:11
can tell that she was very gleeful that Rose suffered that
1:02:15
fate. She's had to do her own wash.
1:02:18
So can you. I can hardly blame that.
1:02:21
Can't you? Yeah.
1:02:23
OK. But is that what we're going to
1:02:26
talk about? Women in a warrior.
1:02:28
No, we can go into more later, but for now, I think we've done
1:02:32
enough for this episode. OK.
1:02:34
All right. It's been an interesting episode
1:02:40
and we've got more to go. Yeah.
1:02:43
I think we'll probably get this done in six episodes though,
1:02:46
yeah. It should be about 6, if not
1:02:48
maybe be straight into a 7th episode.
1:02:50
But thank you for OK, we will, we will try and get it done.
1:02:58
So next week we'll look into the European powered role during the
1:03:01
Civil War and we'll also go into the end of the war, Alphematics
1:03:06
and Reconstruction and the Lost Cause.
1:03:09
So we'll be a packed episode. We're saying next week, but
1:03:12
you're we're not sure if it will be next Civil War episode.
1:03:17
You're a seminar audience are not going to be.
1:03:19
Checked out by this point. Hopefully they're not.
1:03:22
But yeah, the next episode on the Civil War, that's what we'll
1:03:24
be covering. Well, thank you for listening to
1:03:27
this episode, part four of our look at the American Civil War,
1:03:32
and we will see you next week. We'll see you next week.
1:03:35
Bye, goodbye. The Twin History podcast is a
1:03:40
Lost Cosmonauts production produced by me virag Esther
1:03:44
Toute. Additional producers are Dale
1:03:47
McGoldrick, Johnny McCann and Joe McCann, written by Johnny
1:03:52
McCann and Joe McCann original music and score by Kevin
1:03:57
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