Latest / Deep Tech Germany – AI, Robotics & Frontier Innovation by Startuprad.io™ / Visionaries' Sarkadi Nagy: Industrial AI vs Legacy Sectors
Transcript
- WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:19.920 <v Music> 00:00:19.979 --> 00:00:23.559 <v Speaker1>Hello and welcome, everybody. This is Joe from StartupRate.io, 00:00:23.939 --> 00:00:27.159 <v Speaker1>your startup podcast and YouTube blog from Germany, Austria and Switzerland. 00:00:27.419 --> 00:00:30.719 <v Speaker1>And today I do have Martin here with me. Hey, how are you doing? 00:00:31.339 --> 00:00:32.419 <v Speaker0>Hi, great to be here. 00:00:33.139 --> 00:00:40.539 <v Speaker1>Totally my pleasure. I usually give a little introduction about the guests that I do have here. 00:00:40.879 --> 00:00:45.379 <v Speaker1>And we may tell our audience up front, you are not per se an entrepreneur, 00:00:45.599 --> 00:00:47.799 <v Speaker1>but you're working on the investment side. 00:00:48.559 --> 00:00:53.699 <v Speaker1>You are with Visionaries VCs. You're based in Berlin. 00:00:53.939 --> 00:00:59.899 <v Speaker1>And you have been the former growth lead at tier during a hyper growth phase. 00:01:00.099 --> 00:01:03.759 <v Speaker1>I think you have one or two stories to tell from this time. 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:08.279 <v Speaker1>You also have been a competitive athlete. 00:01:08.919 --> 00:01:14.419 <v Speaker1>I'm sure we'll also talk about that. Plus, you specialize in BASAS, 00:01:14.839 --> 00:01:19.539 <v Speaker1>AI, cybersecurity, and deep tech, where you're exactly at the right place here at StartupRate.io. 00:01:19.799 --> 00:01:24.739 <v Speaker1>You have a strong belief in operational experience and radical accountability 00:01:24.739 --> 00:01:27.159 <v Speaker1>in VC. We'll talk about that, I think. 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:33.759 <v Speaker1>And you lead investments that solve real-world industrial problems via applied AI. 00:01:34.779 --> 00:01:44.919 <v Speaker1>I also got some names here of investments, not you personally did, 00:01:45.219 --> 00:01:48.339 <v Speaker1>but visionaries, including Lovable, 00:01:48.739 --> 00:01:50.199 <v Speaker1>the Unicorn Personio, 00:01:50.919 --> 00:01:57.239 <v Speaker1>Miro, Pigment, Tacto, Apron, Choco, Pivot, and Central. 00:01:57.399 --> 00:02:02.059 <v Speaker1>And of course, we link down here in the show notes interview with Central. 00:02:04.039 --> 00:02:06.999 <v Speaker1>So that was already a lot. Take a deep breath. 00:02:07.679 --> 00:02:12.399 <v Speaker1>So let's talk a little bit about your journey and your vision. 00:02:12.939 --> 00:02:18.099 <v Speaker1>How did your time at Tear for everybody that that's one of the e-scooter companies, 00:02:18.279 --> 00:02:22.639 <v Speaker1>the hyper growth e-scooter companies during its hyper growth phase influence 00:02:22.639 --> 00:02:25.039 <v Speaker1>your approach as an investor? 00:02:26.019 --> 00:02:29.179 <v Speaker0>Yeah, that's a great question, Jörn. 00:02:29.179 --> 00:02:36.979 <v Speaker0>And just for background, I was with Tear pretty much from its pre-seed stage until Series B, 00:02:37.359 --> 00:02:40.519 <v Speaker0>which meant that within a very short period of time, within one year, 00:02:40.839 --> 00:02:46.719 <v Speaker0>we went from zero to 400 people, reached 100 million annual revenues and similar 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:48.479 <v Speaker0>number on the funding side, 00:02:48.739 --> 00:02:53.679 <v Speaker0>which I always refer to as a little bit of a positively chaotic scaling journey, 00:02:53.899 --> 00:02:57.599 <v Speaker0>because there was a lot of positive elements and there was also a lot of chaos. 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:08.279 <v Speaker0>And one thing that was definitely very, very clear in that short period of very intense time is that. 00:03:09.689 --> 00:03:14.909 <v Speaker0>The people you work with really, really define of what you can achieve. 00:03:15.409 --> 00:03:21.049 <v Speaker0>And exceptional talent will find a way to own the outcome and really build something 00:03:21.049 --> 00:03:24.249 <v Speaker0>that will move the needle in some context. 00:03:24.509 --> 00:03:29.469 <v Speaker0>And this is one really interesting conversation we always have with founders 00:03:29.469 --> 00:03:32.669 <v Speaker0>that are building very early stage teams, especially investing in pre-seed and 00:03:32.669 --> 00:03:37.549 <v Speaker0>seed, is that who you should hire and how do you know that person actually performs well? 00:03:37.549 --> 00:03:39.849 <v Speaker0>Did you hire the right person for the right role? 00:03:40.289 --> 00:03:46.909 <v Speaker0>Yes or not? And if somebody is underperforming, is it because they are not doing 00:03:46.909 --> 00:03:50.789 <v Speaker0>the right responsibilities or not in charge of the right responsibilities or 00:03:50.789 --> 00:03:54.049 <v Speaker0>whether ultimately it's just not a fit for the company? 00:03:54.049 --> 00:03:57.489 <v Speaker0>And one key learning that really, really shapes the way that we are trying to 00:03:57.489 --> 00:04:01.749 <v Speaker0>work together with founders is this perspective of how we look at talent and 00:04:01.749 --> 00:04:05.829 <v Speaker0>ultimately how you can hire the type of people who you can use as Swiss Army 00:04:05.829 --> 00:04:07.749 <v Speaker0>Knives in very different situations. 00:04:09.409 --> 00:04:14.729 <v Speaker1>And just to be clear, those people, Swiss Army Knives, they don't necessarily 00:04:14.729 --> 00:04:19.989 <v Speaker1>need to come from just a handful of really big Berlin-based startups or a handful 00:04:19.989 --> 00:04:21.989 <v Speaker1>of consultancies, right? 00:04:22.669 --> 00:04:28.329 <v Speaker0>Absolutely not. these type of people can come from pretty much any types of backgrounds. 00:04:29.629 --> 00:04:31.929 <v Speaker0>Very often, in the majority of the cases, 00:04:32.309 --> 00:04:37.889 <v Speaker0>they have at least some level of unconventionality in their life story, 00:04:38.729 --> 00:04:41.809 <v Speaker0>which doesn't mean that they went to some Ivy League schools, 00:04:41.989 --> 00:04:46.569 <v Speaker0>but very often they might end up coding in their parents' basement at the age 00:04:46.569 --> 00:04:51.009 <v Speaker0>of 12 and just cannot stop reading books about building things. 00:04:51.169 --> 00:04:53.789 <v Speaker0>And I think that's something that just comes up again and again. 00:04:54.049 --> 00:04:56.889 <v Speaker0>Uh with these people um. 00:04:56.889 --> 00:05:04.209 <v Speaker1>You i assume you had quite a lot of fun at here but what motivated you to to 00:05:04.209 --> 00:05:12.149 <v Speaker1>to be to become really from an operator turned into a vc um 00:05:12.969 --> 00:05:20.049 <v Speaker1>did you think at the beginning it was more relaxed job and how did you end up at visionaries club 00:05:21.029 --> 00:05:27.389 <v Speaker0>Yeah it was not a very conscious decision at all when i was with tier i had 00:05:27.389 --> 00:05:34.009 <v Speaker0>a friend who was running entrepreneur first batch in berlin and we went into 00:05:34.009 --> 00:05:35.009 <v Speaker0>a couple of conversations. 00:05:36.929 --> 00:05:44.869 <v Speaker0>And we were talking about when i personally thrive the most and i also realized 00:05:44.869 --> 00:05:49.549 <v Speaker0>in that conversation, which I didn't know about myself, is that I thrived the most. 00:05:50.668 --> 00:05:55.608 <v Speaker0>The more I look outside of my regular day-to-day environment, so to say. 00:05:55.788 --> 00:05:58.988 <v Speaker0>And I think there are different types of people here. I definitely fall into 00:05:58.988 --> 00:06:05.888 <v Speaker0>the camp of really thriving in the environments where I get new impulses, 00:06:06.208 --> 00:06:08.988 <v Speaker0>not just from a topic perspective, but also individuals' perspective. 00:06:09.728 --> 00:06:15.028 <v Speaker0>And then this friend of mine told me, hey, I actually have two friends who are 00:06:15.028 --> 00:06:17.628 <v Speaker0>actually founders, former founders, and they are launching a fund. 00:06:17.628 --> 00:06:23.108 <v Speaker0>And it sounds like that since they are building this venture fund from scratch 00:06:23.108 --> 00:06:28.288 <v Speaker0>and you get to spend your entire day speaking to people who are thinking how 00:06:28.288 --> 00:06:32.188 <v Speaker0>the future should look like in a different way, changed by technology, 00:06:32.628 --> 00:06:37.468 <v Speaker0>sounds like a very good intersection of your operator DNA, building something 00:06:37.468 --> 00:06:38.968 <v Speaker0>actually as in a venture fund. 00:06:38.968 --> 00:06:43.588 <v Speaker0>So being kind of like an entrepreneur in VC and also being able to have this 00:06:43.588 --> 00:06:46.568 <v Speaker0>very outward-looking way of working. 00:06:46.788 --> 00:06:51.328 <v Speaker0>And I pretty much just took that introduction, not expecting too much. 00:06:51.488 --> 00:06:54.148 <v Speaker0>And I think a lot of things resonated with me. 00:06:54.368 --> 00:07:00.508 <v Speaker0>And the things that came together, the different DNAs of Visionaries Club, made me very excited. 00:07:00.608 --> 00:07:03.448 <v Speaker0>And that's where I have been in the last six years. 00:07:07.028 --> 00:07:10.368 <v Speaker1>Um you often speak about radical 00:07:10.368 --> 00:07:17.868 <v Speaker1>accountability what does this mean when you work with founders for example let's 00:07:17.868 --> 00:07:23.508 <v Speaker1>let's think um i'm one of your investments and currently it's not going well 00:07:23.508 --> 00:07:27.928 <v Speaker1>what what would you expect in terms of radical accountability um 00:07:29.612 --> 00:07:37.732 <v Speaker0>Radical accountability is a pretty broad term, I would say, and definitely don't 00:07:37.732 --> 00:07:42.912 <v Speaker0>only use it in the relationship of VC to founder, but also the other way around. 00:07:43.172 --> 00:07:48.352 <v Speaker0>And this is something that we also, most importantly, encourage founders that 00:07:48.352 --> 00:07:52.592 <v Speaker0>we back use within their own environment, so to say. 00:07:54.012 --> 00:07:58.592 <v Speaker0>Radical accountability is a little bit of a stolen term, I would say, 00:07:58.732 --> 00:08:02.872 <v Speaker0>from radical transparency from Ray Dalio, switching the word out, 00:08:03.052 --> 00:08:04.752 <v Speaker0>transparency into accountability. 00:08:05.112 --> 00:08:11.372 <v Speaker0>But it's very simply put, radical accountability means that especially in environments 00:08:11.372 --> 00:08:15.932 <v Speaker0>where there is a lot of change and just as I told you earlier, there is a lot of chaos. 00:08:16.572 --> 00:08:22.352 <v Speaker0>The one thing that you can only go back to and always can go back to is owning output. 00:08:22.592 --> 00:08:27.272 <v Speaker0>And that's really what radical accountability means, because everybody has ideas, 00:08:27.552 --> 00:08:30.592 <v Speaker0>everybody has comments about how things should be done. 00:08:30.812 --> 00:08:37.612 <v Speaker0>But what really differentiates the top 0.01% of startups from the rest is that 00:08:37.612 --> 00:08:42.092 <v Speaker0>this sense of radical accountability is pretty much soaked into the culture 00:08:42.092 --> 00:08:45.152 <v Speaker0>of how people think and get stuff done. 00:08:45.152 --> 00:08:48.712 <v Speaker0>And this is something that pretty much everybody is accountable, 00:08:49.032 --> 00:08:54.672 <v Speaker0>both on a positive and rather consequential negative side, when things are either 00:08:54.672 --> 00:08:57.492 <v Speaker0>executed very properly or not executed properly. 00:08:57.892 --> 00:09:04.872 <v Speaker1>We're now going a little bit into market insights and your investment thesis. 00:09:04.872 --> 00:09:12.872 <v Speaker1>And we may tell our audience because I do believe most of our audience are founders 00:09:12.872 --> 00:09:18.492 <v Speaker1>and they somehow have an idea they had heard Visionish Club before but we should 00:09:18.492 --> 00:09:23.332 <v Speaker1>tell them that you're around the data that I found around 600 million years 00:09:23.332 --> 00:09:24.512 <v Speaker1>assets under management. 00:09:24.712 --> 00:09:27.972 <v Speaker1>Your last fund was, I believe in 2022, 400 million. 00:09:28.572 --> 00:09:29.892 <v Speaker0>That's correct. Yes. 00:09:30.052 --> 00:09:34.032 <v Speaker1>And so you're one of the bigger VCs and therefore, um 00:09:35.481 --> 00:09:40.341 <v Speaker1>is of interest to me. But some of the things that first stood out is that you 00:09:40.341 --> 00:09:45.121 <v Speaker1>guys have a very unique base with limited partners. 00:09:45.321 --> 00:09:49.541 <v Speaker1>For everybody who's not familiar with the term, it's basically the institutions, 00:09:49.541 --> 00:09:56.241 <v Speaker1>the people who give you the money to invest them as VC, legacy industrialists, 00:09:56.401 --> 00:09:59.241 <v Speaker1>and modern digital entrepreneurs. 00:09:59.761 --> 00:10:06.321 <v Speaker1>How does that shape your portfolio strategy? Because It sounds like you have 00:10:06.321 --> 00:10:09.961 <v Speaker1>two magnetic poles and they always pull you in different directions. 00:10:10.961 --> 00:10:14.981 <v Speaker0>Yes. I'm happy to give you a little bit of background because I do think that 00:10:14.981 --> 00:10:18.641 <v Speaker0>this will help also scope the conversation a little bit. 00:10:18.821 --> 00:10:23.561 <v Speaker0>I just want to tell you and the listeners a little bit about the origin of Visionaries Club. 00:10:23.861 --> 00:10:29.081 <v Speaker0>So we have been around for some six years. And one very important theme that 00:10:29.081 --> 00:10:33.501 <v Speaker0>we have all across the investment team is that everybody is a former operator or founder. 00:10:34.021 --> 00:10:37.561 <v Speaker0>Pretty much really everybody in the investment team. And this is something that 00:10:37.561 --> 00:10:42.981 <v Speaker0>we really wanted to incorporate into the very DNA of how we set up the fund ultimately. 00:10:43.801 --> 00:10:47.481 <v Speaker0>And back then when we set up the first fund generation, one very important decision 00:10:47.481 --> 00:10:53.181 <v Speaker0>we made was, as you said, that we only raise capital from entrepreneurs that we know well. 00:10:53.792 --> 00:10:58.012 <v Speaker0>And if you look at who these entrepreneurs are, as you mentioned, 00:10:58.272 --> 00:11:02.132 <v Speaker0>it's two very different group of individuals, but it's always the private people 00:11:02.132 --> 00:11:03.772 <v Speaker0>behind these companies. 00:11:04.012 --> 00:11:07.692 <v Speaker0>But on the one hand, we have a collection of some 30 Unicorn founders. 00:11:07.692 --> 00:11:11.492 <v Speaker0>If you look at, for example, Andre from Miro or Daniel from UiPath from Eastern 00:11:11.492 --> 00:11:14.832 <v Speaker0>Europe, Ilka from Supercell or Miki from both from the Nordics. 00:11:15.012 --> 00:11:18.392 <v Speaker0>If you look at Fintech, for example, Peter from Adrian, Guillaume from Checkout.com, 00:11:18.512 --> 00:11:21.812 <v Speaker0>but also a lot of Dach entrepreneurs such as Get Your Guide, 00:11:21.972 --> 00:11:23.612 <v Speaker0>Flixbus, HelloFresh, AutoEyes. 00:11:23.792 --> 00:11:26.972 <v Speaker0>Who build these very successful hyperscaling tech companies. 00:11:27.172 --> 00:11:30.392 <v Speaker0>And as you mentioned on the completely other side, we have this collection of 00:11:30.392 --> 00:11:33.712 <v Speaker0>family business entrepreneurs who are a little bit less conventional entrepreneurs 00:11:33.712 --> 00:11:36.032 <v Speaker0>because they didn't start these companies themselves, right? 00:11:36.312 --> 00:11:40.212 <v Speaker0>They inherited these multi-decade old family businesses from the what we call 00:11:40.212 --> 00:11:45.132 <v Speaker0>old economy or industrial economy that have been operating pretty much offline 00:11:45.132 --> 00:11:48.572 <v Speaker0>for a couple of decades, very often in manufacturing, logistics, 00:11:48.792 --> 00:11:50.112 <v Speaker0>distribution, wholesale. 00:11:50.332 --> 00:11:53.692 <v Speaker0>And what's really interesting about them and about Europe specifically, 00:11:53.792 --> 00:11:58.192 <v Speaker0>is that 80% of the European economy is owned by family businesses. 00:11:58.532 --> 00:12:03.272 <v Speaker0>So when we were thinking about bringing this entrepreneurial DNA into how we build the fund, 00:12:03.492 --> 00:12:07.852 <v Speaker0>we felt that if we look into the next decade and we look at the intersection 00:12:07.852 --> 00:12:11.712 <v Speaker0>of what we have to work with in the European economy and what technology can 00:12:11.712 --> 00:12:15.312 <v Speaker0>bring and unlock, this is really the intersection that we are looking into. 00:12:15.452 --> 00:12:19.912 <v Speaker0>This is very digital first entrepreneurs and this is very non-digital entrepreneurs 00:12:19.912 --> 00:12:22.752 <v Speaker0>who are incredibly important of how we think about the economy. 00:12:22.752 --> 00:12:25.852 <v Speaker0>So this is how we really bring this group of people together. 00:12:26.112 --> 00:12:29.912 <v Speaker0>And over the last couple of years, we scaled this one to some 600 million. 00:12:30.812 --> 00:12:33.672 <v Speaker0>And ultimately, if I really want to sum it up in one sentence, 00:12:34.052 --> 00:12:38.872 <v Speaker0>the single biggest leverage that we bring into the relationship we have with 00:12:38.872 --> 00:12:41.272 <v Speaker0>our founders that we back is that we, 00:12:42.172 --> 00:12:46.852 <v Speaker0>bring in these people and really connect the founders that we back with the 00:12:46.852 --> 00:12:49.312 <v Speaker0>right people at the right time across all this network. 00:12:49.552 --> 00:12:52.952 <v Speaker0>This can be about potential customer introductions. This can be about integration 00:12:52.952 --> 00:12:54.512 <v Speaker0>partners, hiring go to market. 00:12:55.052 --> 00:12:58.292 <v Speaker0>But based on our experience, instead of coming in with a high-level VC advice, 00:12:58.672 --> 00:13:01.932 <v Speaker0>we just take a step back and really execute on those introductions that are 00:13:01.932 --> 00:13:02.732 <v Speaker0>strategically important. 00:13:05.892 --> 00:13:10.932 <v Speaker1>I also do have a theory, maybe you also have an opinion on that. 00:13:13.228 --> 00:13:17.488 <v Speaker1>I'm now doing startup interviews with the project in Germany that I did before 00:13:17.488 --> 00:13:20.148 <v Speaker1>since, let's say, 13 years. 00:13:20.328 --> 00:13:22.488 <v Speaker1>And over time, I've seen a lot of 00:13:22.488 --> 00:13:26.268 <v Speaker1>entrepreneurs maturing, getting bigger businesses and so on and so forth. 00:13:26.388 --> 00:13:31.328 <v Speaker1>And when they're running the company for long enough, there is barely a difference 00:13:31.328 --> 00:13:34.348 <v Speaker1>between those people and the more traditional entrepreneurs, 00:13:34.568 --> 00:13:38.888 <v Speaker1>how they view their life, how they view the company and their outlook on the 00:13:38.888 --> 00:13:40.328 <v Speaker1>company. Would you agree to that? 00:13:41.568 --> 00:13:48.648 <v Speaker0>I would say it's really interesting, especially if you contrast industrial entrepreneurs 00:13:48.648 --> 00:13:50.528 <v Speaker0>with really, really large corporates. 00:13:50.528 --> 00:13:55.188 <v Speaker0>One thing that we made a very conscious decision on taking on these industrial 00:13:55.188 --> 00:14:00.368 <v Speaker0>entrepreneurs and how I would say they think about actually digital entrepreneurs 00:14:00.368 --> 00:14:06.108 <v Speaker0>is that since they own a very significant portion of the company and they are 00:14:06.108 --> 00:14:08.648 <v Speaker0>also in a very active strategic role, 00:14:08.908 --> 00:14:14.088 <v Speaker0>they can take decisions much faster and they can take risk with a much higher level. 00:14:14.648 --> 00:14:20.168 <v Speaker0>Again this is not a guarantee that they will suddenly all adopt highest you 00:14:20.168 --> 00:14:23.928 <v Speaker0>know the most advanced software and end-to-end agentic ai automation tomorrow 00:14:23.928 --> 00:14:28.328 <v Speaker0>but at least you can get an answer from them very very fast whether this is 00:14:28.328 --> 00:14:32.588 <v Speaker0>the right timing for them to speak to a certain software company or not i. 00:14:32.588 --> 00:14:39.868 <v Speaker1>See um we're not talking tvc and i would be interested maybe except for ai Hi, 00:14:40.268 --> 00:14:46.268 <v Speaker1>what sectors are you most bullish on right now, especially in early stage investing? 00:14:47.977 --> 00:14:54.497 <v Speaker0>Yes, this is a really good question. I would say that given our very DNA and 00:14:54.497 --> 00:14:58.977 <v Speaker0>kind of history, over the last couple of years, we built a relatively lean team. 00:14:59.397 --> 00:15:04.057 <v Speaker0>So in total, we are six people in the investment team. And that means that for 00:15:04.057 --> 00:15:09.637 <v Speaker0>us specifically, it doesn't make sense to split up the team by sector, right? 00:15:09.837 --> 00:15:13.537 <v Speaker0>So even though we have certain interest areas, for example, I personally look 00:15:13.537 --> 00:15:17.877 <v Speaker0>into a lot of topics on the, let's say, more technical side when it comes to 00:15:17.877 --> 00:15:20.917 <v Speaker0>data, infrastructure, architecture, AI, cybersecurity. 00:15:21.397 --> 00:15:24.177 <v Speaker0>These are all areas to love to look into. 00:15:24.437 --> 00:15:30.977 <v Speaker0>We are incredibly focused on founders and pretty much picture them within the 00:15:30.977 --> 00:15:33.897 <v Speaker0>bigger realm of what we find exciting, right? 00:15:34.117 --> 00:15:38.877 <v Speaker0>So if you look at the way that we work usually and work together with founders, 00:15:39.117 --> 00:15:43.897 <v Speaker0>we spend, I would say, 80 to 90% of our time on the ground in ecosystems because 00:15:43.897 --> 00:15:48.077 <v Speaker0>Europe is incredibly fragmented and you have absolutely no idea which ecosystem 00:15:48.077 --> 00:15:52.457 <v Speaker0>will produce the next really exceptional entrepreneur. You pretty much have to be there. 00:15:52.917 --> 00:15:57.217 <v Speaker0>Really try to find these founders, sit down with them and really understand. 00:15:59.357 --> 00:16:04.057 <v Speaker0>Why the timing of what they want to build fits into the broader market. 00:16:04.237 --> 00:16:06.657 <v Speaker0>And this can be in very different industries. 00:16:06.877 --> 00:16:10.677 <v Speaker0>For example, I personally have been looking into and working with a lot of founders 00:16:10.677 --> 00:16:13.297 <v Speaker0>in procurement, but also back teams in cybersecurity. 00:16:13.297 --> 00:16:19.297 <v Speaker0>Security, it can be about engineering, it can be about pretty much pure data, 00:16:19.757 --> 00:16:24.337 <v Speaker0>it can be about really, I would say we are very sector agnostic from that perspective. 00:16:27.537 --> 00:16:31.937 <v Speaker1>And which ones are the most interesting right now? 00:16:33.907 --> 00:16:36.907 <v Speaker1>Sectors yeah you can also speak 00:16:36.907 --> 00:16:43.407 <v Speaker1>from personal perspective because i do understand from from uh such broad company 00:16:43.407 --> 00:16:49.287 <v Speaker1>it's always difficult to speak like about this or that but your personal experience 00:16:49.287 --> 00:16:55.667 <v Speaker1>in your area of responsibility is totally fine um it's it's 00:16:55.667 --> 00:16:58.807 <v Speaker0>It's a really interesting question because we are now at 00:16:58.807 --> 00:17:03.307 <v Speaker0>a very interesting shift between cloud 00:17:03.307 --> 00:17:06.767 <v Speaker0>software 1.0 versus the next type 00:17:06.767 --> 00:17:10.707 <v Speaker0>of let's say software you can still call it software and i know you didn't necessarily 00:17:10.707 --> 00:17:17.027 <v Speaker0>want to get an ai answer but i would say one very clear shift that we are seeing 00:17:17.027 --> 00:17:21.907 <v Speaker0>at the moment is that traditional software as a service will very likely cease 00:17:21.907 --> 00:17:25.287 <v Speaker0>to exist in its current form in a very short period of time. 00:17:26.527 --> 00:17:31.227 <v Speaker0>And almost these models around services and software is emerging. 00:17:31.507 --> 00:17:35.147 <v Speaker0>Because if you look at, especially, for example, the industrial economy. 00:17:36.467 --> 00:17:40.387 <v Speaker0>One very interesting theme that we have been looking into, and maybe one thing 00:17:40.387 --> 00:17:46.227 <v Speaker0>to pinpoint very concretely, is how we are thinking about the automation of 00:17:46.227 --> 00:17:47.327 <v Speaker0>back office work, right? 00:17:48.107 --> 00:17:52.467 <v Speaker0>And this traditionally, for example, in software has been very much tied to sectors. 00:17:52.807 --> 00:17:57.267 <v Speaker0>So for example, you had to think about a very specific procurement software 00:17:57.267 --> 00:18:01.307 <v Speaker0>as a service that had, I don't know, an underlying database, 00:18:01.507 --> 00:18:05.007 <v Speaker0>some type of a user interface, maybe integration with legacy systems. 00:18:05.227 --> 00:18:06.507 <v Speaker0>And then you try to pretty much 00:18:06.507 --> 00:18:09.647 <v Speaker0>take these companies and then target these companies and roll them out. 00:18:09.867 --> 00:18:13.347 <v Speaker0>Now, what we are seeing is that if you look at some of the back office work, 00:18:13.347 --> 00:18:19.587 <v Speaker0>Let it be, let's say, insurance, procurement, sales, quoting, construction. 00:18:20.187 --> 00:18:24.827 <v Speaker0>You have these massive back offices where people are just sitting in front of 00:18:24.827 --> 00:18:28.647 <v Speaker0>their computer and have been doing the same repetitive tasks they have been 00:18:28.647 --> 00:18:31.347 <v Speaker0>trained to do for pretty much 10, 20 years. 00:18:32.071 --> 00:18:38.291 <v Speaker0>And in my view, this is going to be exactly the absolute first type of use case 00:18:38.291 --> 00:18:41.671 <v Speaker0>where full level of automation will be achieved within a very, 00:18:41.731 --> 00:18:42.651 <v Speaker0>very short period of time. 00:18:42.731 --> 00:18:48.331 <v Speaker0>So we absolutely don't see any scenario where these tasks won't be 100% automated 00:18:48.331 --> 00:18:49.631 <v Speaker0>within a couple of years of time. 00:18:49.851 --> 00:18:54.411 <v Speaker0>And this is especially relevant because this is exactly the type of talent also 00:18:54.411 --> 00:18:58.131 <v Speaker0>in our economy that is retiring fast and there is no supply of it. 00:18:58.131 --> 00:19:02.971 <v Speaker0>Because you have to be somewhat educated in order to execute on this task, 00:19:03.191 --> 00:19:06.551 <v Speaker0>but it's actually not something that needs incredibly sophisticated, 00:19:06.551 --> 00:19:11.371 <v Speaker0>you know, qualification that cannot be taught in certain areas. 00:19:11.651 --> 00:19:17.811 <v Speaker1>Why do you believe Europe is positioned to lead in the application layer of AI globally? 00:19:18.991 --> 00:19:24.691 <v Speaker0>The reason for that is that Europe is in a very special position. 00:19:25.931 --> 00:19:32.471 <v Speaker0>If you look at the talent in Europe, it's very clear, speaking to entrepreneurs 00:19:32.471 --> 00:19:35.571 <v Speaker0>from a global scale, speaking to investors from a global level, 00:19:35.751 --> 00:19:37.831 <v Speaker0>that Europe has absolutely zero talent problem. 00:19:38.211 --> 00:19:41.651 <v Speaker0>This is something that is sometimes a massive misconception. 00:19:42.431 --> 00:19:47.171 <v Speaker0>Europe has incredible engineers, incredible entrepreneurs. it's a very fragmented 00:19:47.171 --> 00:19:53.451 <v Speaker0>ecosystem, but from a very fundamental perspective, I think this is just one 00:19:53.451 --> 00:19:55.871 <v Speaker0>thing that is, I think, very important to get right. 00:19:56.211 --> 00:19:58.991 <v Speaker0>When it comes to the application layer of AI. 00:20:00.707 --> 00:20:03.607 <v Speaker0>And especially if you look at the European economy and getting back to, 00:20:03.687 --> 00:20:08.027 <v Speaker0>for example, how many of these industrial companies, well, for what it's worth, 00:20:08.147 --> 00:20:12.007 <v Speaker0>you know, non-industrial companies necessarily, have been working with traditional 00:20:12.007 --> 00:20:14.747 <v Speaker0>software like SAP and others. 00:20:15.287 --> 00:20:19.527 <v Speaker0>You know, some of these existing software stacks have been around for 30 years, right? 00:20:20.907 --> 00:20:23.887 <v Speaker0>And there is an absolute clear reason for that. And the 00:20:23.887 --> 00:20:26.847 <v Speaker0>clear reason for that is that their lock-in is so 00:20:26.847 --> 00:20:30.367 <v Speaker0>incredibly high that challengers over 00:20:30.367 --> 00:20:34.147 <v Speaker0>the course of the last couple of decades absolutely failed to remove them because 00:20:34.147 --> 00:20:39.247 <v Speaker0>they are so ingrained and so customized to the local environment that it was 00:20:39.247 --> 00:20:43.807 <v Speaker0>just pretty much impossible to create a strong enough incentive for these customers 00:20:43.807 --> 00:20:47.167 <v Speaker0>to put effort into removing them and adopt a new solution. 00:20:47.667 --> 00:20:53.307 <v Speaker0>Now, the opportunity for Europe right now, where pretty much this ingrainedness 00:20:53.307 --> 00:20:55.007 <v Speaker0>is the highest, I would say, 00:20:55.727 --> 00:21:00.587 <v Speaker0>is that with the shift in technology when it comes to mapping, 00:21:00.747 --> 00:21:06.507 <v Speaker0>let's say, integration endpoints, when it comes to using new technologies around 00:21:06.507 --> 00:21:09.687 <v Speaker0>AI to facilitate data migration, data schema mapping, 00:21:10.307 --> 00:21:14.367 <v Speaker0>mapping out workflows, and pretty much ultimately automating these workflows 00:21:14.367 --> 00:21:16.627 <v Speaker0>is something that was not unlocked before. 00:21:17.367 --> 00:21:23.847 <v Speaker0>And from an application layer perspective, this is what we have context on. 00:21:24.027 --> 00:21:28.307 <v Speaker0>And I think the key word here is contextuality. And this is something that Europe has. 00:21:28.907 --> 00:21:33.287 <v Speaker0>The technology is there. We can use it pretty much from a foundation model perspective, 00:21:33.287 --> 00:21:36.207 <v Speaker0>which we don't have to be a winner in. 00:21:36.527 --> 00:21:39.887 <v Speaker0>And ultimately, this is exactly where the opportunity is, because you can match 00:21:39.887 --> 00:21:44.667 <v Speaker0>this level of contextuality and generate a new generation of challenges that 00:21:44.667 --> 00:21:50.707 <v Speaker0>can ultimately remove this absolute high locking of incumbents that have been 00:21:50.707 --> 00:21:52.347 <v Speaker0>dominating the industry for many, many years. 00:21:54.747 --> 00:22:01.067 <v Speaker1>As personally, I've been working in more SAP projects than I would like to admit here. 00:22:01.227 --> 00:22:03.307 <v Speaker1>I can totally see that. 00:22:03.467 --> 00:22:08.607 <v Speaker1>But when I now think about the logic that we used there back in the days 00:22:09.647 --> 00:22:14.107 <v Speaker1>and the teams you've been talking about doing their administrative stuff, 00:22:14.107 --> 00:22:21.587 <v Speaker1>which would be quite a picture book example of being replaced by AI agents. 00:22:22.187 --> 00:22:29.487 <v Speaker1>I get to think that you would not only need to re-envision the software, 00:22:30.067 --> 00:22:36.927 <v Speaker1>but you'll also need to re-envision at least in part the companies because there'll 00:22:36.927 --> 00:22:41.587 <v Speaker1>be a lot more of automation, especially in administrative duties. 00:22:44.156 --> 00:22:52.156 <v Speaker0>Yes, 100%. And I do not think that this is going to be a zero to one shift, right? 00:22:52.716 --> 00:23:00.016 <v Speaker0>If you look at, for example, a very clear example of the migration push of SAP 00:23:00.016 --> 00:23:04.296 <v Speaker0>on-prem to SAP HANA that SAP is pushing massively, 00:23:04.476 --> 00:23:09.536 <v Speaker0>some of these companies actually spend a very, very significant amount of euros 00:23:09.536 --> 00:23:13.276 <v Speaker0>and very significant amount of time, meaning years. 00:23:13.396 --> 00:23:19.556 <v Speaker0>To go from the concept of understanding what the existing on-prem setup looks 00:23:19.556 --> 00:23:24.116 <v Speaker0>like from the perspective of what's standard SRP code, what's customer SRP code, 00:23:24.556 --> 00:23:27.336 <v Speaker0>how, for example, the business logics look like, 00:23:28.096 --> 00:23:33.116 <v Speaker0>all of these things, hire a bunch of consultants, kind of try to map out exactly 00:23:33.116 --> 00:23:35.216 <v Speaker0>how this should look like in the cloud. 00:23:35.496 --> 00:23:38.996 <v Speaker0>It doesn't just work in a way that you buy a virtual machine and you just push 00:23:38.996 --> 00:23:42.336 <v Speaker0>it there within a week, but you actually have to go through this entire process 00:23:42.336 --> 00:23:44.876 <v Speaker0>And then pretty much you try to move the application. 00:23:46.276 --> 00:23:51.976 <v Speaker0>Now, from my perspective, technologies that can, on the one hand, 00:23:52.556 --> 00:24:00.236 <v Speaker0>speed up this type of process, as well as think about how these workflows can 00:24:00.236 --> 00:24:06.996 <v Speaker0>be fully automated from, let's say, an agentic perspective, will need to emerge in parallel. 00:24:07.396 --> 00:24:11.416 <v Speaker0>Because you cannot just throw an agent pretty much at an on-prem SAP instance, 00:24:11.596 --> 00:24:13.176 <v Speaker0>right? I think it's very, very clear. 00:24:14.056 --> 00:24:19.736 <v Speaker0>So you will need very different approaches. And ultimately, what will unlock 00:24:19.736 --> 00:24:23.516 <v Speaker0>the most value will have the most grip on the market, as we have seen also in the past. 00:24:23.656 --> 00:24:29.036 <v Speaker0>There is no absolute clear cut answer what type of approaches will win. 00:24:30.136 --> 00:24:32.296 <v Speaker0>But ultimately, I think it needs to be, 00:24:32.927 --> 00:24:35.187 <v Speaker0>game of parallel approaches, to be honest. 00:24:36.367 --> 00:24:42.007 <v Speaker1>And what you've been talking about is on-premise, basically more or less very simplified. 00:24:42.027 --> 00:24:45.407 <v Speaker1>You had a very big data center. 00:24:45.807 --> 00:24:51.527 <v Speaker1>You're running SAP there just for your company. And now it's moved on HANA into the cloud. 00:24:51.667 --> 00:24:54.607 <v Speaker1>Very, very much simplified. And that was already a big project. 00:24:54.847 --> 00:25:00.647 <v Speaker1>But the more I think about using AI agents in such a tool, 00:25:00.647 --> 00:25:06.627 <v Speaker1>I always get the idea that the most successful companies or the most successful 00:25:06.627 --> 00:25:11.487 <v Speaker1>software in the future may not be the fastest AI agent, 00:25:11.627 --> 00:25:19.207 <v Speaker1>but I do get the one who makes it the easiest to administrate those agents, control them, 00:25:19.707 --> 00:25:22.007 <v Speaker1>give them duty and keep them in check. 00:25:22.007 --> 00:25:28.267 <v Speaker1>Because if you do, what I have in mind are those huge Excel sheets where you track stuff. 00:25:28.407 --> 00:25:33.047 <v Speaker1>And then at one point, you don't realize that this agent is doing A, 00:25:33.247 --> 00:25:37.647 <v Speaker1>this agent is doing P, and they're basically just giving each other work. 00:25:37.787 --> 00:25:43.387 <v Speaker1>So there is a new way how you need to think about a company getting back to 00:25:43.387 --> 00:25:46.367 <v Speaker1>the idea of rethinking the company. 00:25:47.547 --> 00:25:51.787 <v Speaker1>But we've been a little bit intertwined already into AI. 00:25:52.007 --> 00:25:56.987 <v Speaker1>So I was wondering, we're talking to your VC, what is your framework to identify 00:25:56.987 --> 00:26:04.067 <v Speaker1>AI startups with like a real differentiation and they don't necessarily have just buzz? 00:26:05.867 --> 00:26:12.747 <v Speaker0>Yes, that's a really good question. So I'm especially speaking from the perspective 00:26:12.747 --> 00:26:16.347 <v Speaker0>of a pre-seed seed investor, which is a little bit of a cheat card sometimes 00:26:16.347 --> 00:26:19.407 <v Speaker0>because you can always give the answer that the founder has to be exceptional. 00:26:19.407 --> 00:26:23.267 <v Speaker0>Which in itself, on the one hand, can be a really good answer. 00:26:23.467 --> 00:26:28.107 <v Speaker0>On the other hand, I completely agree that if you look at many of the verticals 00:26:28.107 --> 00:26:30.467 <v Speaker0>you see right now in agentic AI, 00:26:30.867 --> 00:26:35.227 <v Speaker0>you do see an absolute red ocean of parallel approaches, let's say when it comes 00:26:35.227 --> 00:26:39.647 <v Speaker0>to the number of AI legal tech companies or the number of companies that are 00:26:39.647 --> 00:26:43.867 <v Speaker0>trying to build your AI SDR and so many of these different approaches. 00:26:44.687 --> 00:26:47.727 <v Speaker0>From our perspective, the two things we... 00:26:48.654 --> 00:26:53.314 <v Speaker0>Pre-seed, ultimately, and early-stage investing, in a really simple, 00:26:53.514 --> 00:26:59.934 <v Speaker0>simply put way, is a really, truly excellent founder building in an incredibly exciting market. 00:27:00.434 --> 00:27:04.894 <v Speaker0>And the incredibly exciting market is pretty much a given, in many cases, 00:27:04.954 --> 00:27:08.114 <v Speaker0>when you are looking at the opportunity of the technology and what you can see 00:27:08.114 --> 00:27:09.594 <v Speaker0>in many of these use cases. 00:27:09.594 --> 00:27:15.054 <v Speaker0>Now, ultimately, the exceptionality of the founder is something that we pay exceptional, 00:27:15.394 --> 00:27:21.454 <v Speaker0>like really, really big attention to, because that's where you can identify 00:27:21.454 --> 00:27:26.354 <v Speaker0>somebody who will be able to navigate the, let's say, the level of uncertainty 00:27:26.354 --> 00:27:28.834 <v Speaker0>that you will need to navigate in this space. 00:27:28.834 --> 00:27:33.794 <v Speaker0>And if you look at just the simple acceleration of the last two to three years 00:27:33.794 --> 00:27:39.394 <v Speaker0>when it comes to what capabilities, for example, AI can do, this is one topic 00:27:39.394 --> 00:27:40.874 <v Speaker0>we have been discussing with the founder, 00:27:41.174 --> 00:27:47.994 <v Speaker0>is that, for example, if you look at some of the, let's say. 00:27:48.754 --> 00:27:52.494 <v Speaker0>Features that, I don't know, some of these foundation models could do, 00:27:52.594 --> 00:27:55.974 <v Speaker0>for example, writing a poem or something like this that are absolutely not spectacular 00:27:55.974 --> 00:27:59.834 <v Speaker0>today, almost to anyone who has been natively using these AI tools, 00:28:00.074 --> 00:28:06.334 <v Speaker0>back then the amount of wow effect that you got from them was 100 times higher 00:28:06.334 --> 00:28:08.334 <v Speaker0>than what you get from now. 00:28:08.774 --> 00:28:13.574 <v Speaker0>So from our perspective, from a human perspective, human experience perspective, 00:28:13.894 --> 00:28:19.594 <v Speaker0>what we see is that we get used to the power of the technology incredibly fast. 00:28:20.274 --> 00:28:24.194 <v Speaker0>And we just forget how much progress has been made in the last two to three years. 00:28:25.214 --> 00:28:28.414 <v Speaker0>And I think personally that we completely underestimate 00:28:28.414 --> 00:28:31.314 <v Speaker0>how much this technology will develop in the 00:28:31.314 --> 00:28:35.434 <v Speaker0>coming years and because of that there is 00:28:35.434 --> 00:28:38.194 <v Speaker0>a very high level of uncertainty that a certain 00:28:38.194 --> 00:28:41.074 <v Speaker0>founder needs to navigate so ultimately as a pre-seed or 00:28:41.074 --> 00:28:43.794 <v Speaker0>seed investor trying to identify if you have a level of 00:28:43.794 --> 00:28:46.754 <v Speaker0>tech defensibility as a startup that just developed an 00:28:46.754 --> 00:28:49.694 <v Speaker0>MVP is not a 00:28:49.694 --> 00:28:53.094 <v Speaker0>very valid question right so for us the focus 00:28:53.094 --> 00:28:56.134 <v Speaker0>really really shifts very much to the exceptionality 00:28:56.134 --> 00:28:59.194 <v Speaker0>of the founder which in itself can lie into for 00:28:59.194 --> 00:29:02.314 <v Speaker0>example unique insights to a certain industry because as 00:29:02.314 --> 00:29:07.274 <v Speaker0>discussed already for example in europe when you still have the challenge of 00:29:07.274 --> 00:29:12.734 <v Speaker0>for example needing to sell to some customers um in person or do field sales 00:29:12.734 --> 00:29:16.494 <v Speaker0>for example let's say in construction tech or industrial tech a founder that 00:29:16.494 --> 00:29:19.414 <v Speaker0>is able to understand on the one hand the capabilities of AI, 00:29:19.654 --> 00:29:23.114 <v Speaker0>but also understands the particularities of the industry, is the combination 00:29:23.114 --> 00:29:25.134 <v Speaker0>that makes them exceptional, right? 00:29:25.334 --> 00:29:29.934 <v Speaker0>And this is something that we always try to look at from a perspective point of view. 00:29:31.874 --> 00:29:37.974 <v Speaker1>I see. We'll be back after a short ad break and then talk about how you do your 00:29:37.974 --> 00:29:43.234 <v Speaker1>investments, how, for example, you evaluate a founder, and so on and so forth. 00:29:48.771 --> 00:29:52.031 <v Speaker1>Hey, guys. Thank you for being back with us after the short ad break. 00:29:52.471 --> 00:29:58.491 <v Speaker1>I'm still talking to Martin Partner at Visionaries VC, and we are talking right 00:29:58.491 --> 00:30:02.151 <v Speaker1>now about how they evaluate the founders. 00:30:04.911 --> 00:30:12.451 <v Speaker1>What traits do you think define a genre-defining founder in your eyes? 00:30:13.211 --> 00:30:20.051 <v Speaker0>Yes, this has been an exercise we have been constantly thinking about and re-challenging ourselves on, 00:30:21.891 --> 00:30:26.431 <v Speaker0>especially if you look at the really exceptional founders in Europe and how 00:30:26.431 --> 00:30:31.851 <v Speaker0>serendipitously they came out of absolutely unexpected hubs, times, and setups. 00:30:33.111 --> 00:30:38.291 <v Speaker0>We definitely don't think that you have a very strong ability to put together 00:30:38.291 --> 00:30:42.391 <v Speaker0>a checklist and just tick boxes and give an average score. 00:30:42.611 --> 00:30:45.271 <v Speaker0>And if somebody hits that average score about a certain level, 00:30:45.411 --> 00:30:47.211 <v Speaker0>then you invest. If not, then not. 00:30:47.831 --> 00:30:53.051 <v Speaker0>So, for us, exceptionality can come in very different forms, 00:30:53.071 --> 00:31:00.011 <v Speaker0>and we have certain traits that we usually look into that can feed into certain 00:31:00.011 --> 00:31:02.671 <v Speaker0>exceptionalities in founders in very different ways. 00:31:02.671 --> 00:31:10.871 <v Speaker0>To give you an example, one trade that we are also looking into is a combination 00:31:10.871 --> 00:31:14.751 <v Speaker0>of a founder having pretty much very much like, 00:31:14.891 --> 00:31:18.251 <v Speaker0>for example, if you would look into, let's say, 00:31:18.611 --> 00:31:23.331 <v Speaker0>soccer, to come up with a very concrete example. 00:31:25.051 --> 00:31:31.471 <v Speaker0>What makes a good player shoot, for example, a ball in a good way? right? 00:31:31.591 --> 00:31:36.331 <v Speaker0>It's a combination of timing, it's a combination of power and accuracy. 00:31:36.611 --> 00:31:40.471 <v Speaker0>And these are the three characteristics and the combination that really, 00:31:40.531 --> 00:31:42.531 <v Speaker0>really exceptional founders do have. 00:31:42.711 --> 00:31:48.231 <v Speaker0>When it comes to timing, also interchangeably use it together with urgency or 00:31:48.231 --> 00:31:49.451 <v Speaker0>kind of like proneness to action, 00:31:49.611 --> 00:31:57.911 <v Speaker0>is the ability for the founder to very clearly articulate when to do what and how to prioritize what. 00:31:58.111 --> 00:32:02.111 <v Speaker0>It can be about hiring, it can be about execution, it can be about when they 00:32:02.111 --> 00:32:04.691 <v Speaker0>start building a certain product in a certain market. 00:32:05.171 --> 00:32:10.231 <v Speaker0>Power is pure grit. It's about how hard you work and pretty much how much you 00:32:10.231 --> 00:32:11.171 <v Speaker0>can commit to the company. 00:32:11.651 --> 00:32:18.531 <v Speaker0>And accuracy is ultimately the ability to identify the most important problems 00:32:18.531 --> 00:32:21.511 <v Speaker0>and really shortlist those on a daily basis. 00:32:21.711 --> 00:32:29.031 <v Speaker0>And this is something that we always try to evaluate on a recurring basis together with founders. 00:32:29.531 --> 00:32:35.171 <v Speaker0>This is one very important aspect, obviously, that just comes up again and again. 00:32:35.997 --> 00:32:41.297 <v Speaker0>In certain founders. And I want to highlight this sense of urgency that with 00:32:41.297 --> 00:32:45.997 <v Speaker0>some of the most successful founders, when as an investor, you are in a meeting 00:32:45.997 --> 00:32:50.437 <v Speaker0>with them, you almost feel uncomfortable about wasting their time. 00:32:50.757 --> 00:32:55.917 <v Speaker0>And this is something that, you know, I definitely felt at tier with Lawrence, 00:32:56.077 --> 00:32:57.537 <v Speaker0>who is just a fantastic founder as well, 00:32:57.737 --> 00:33:04.437 <v Speaker0>is that their sense of urgency when it comes to coming to action and their sense 00:33:04.437 --> 00:33:09.817 <v Speaker0>to not waste time in instances where they absolutely don't need to is very, very high. 00:33:09.997 --> 00:33:13.277 <v Speaker0>And this is something that you can, I think, really sense as an investor. 00:33:13.837 --> 00:33:20.017 <v Speaker0>To give you another example, product and personal obsession is something that 00:33:20.017 --> 00:33:24.077 <v Speaker0>you definitely can identify relatively accurately. 00:33:24.517 --> 00:33:28.997 <v Speaker0>And it comes out in very different formats, in very different founder journeys. 00:33:28.997 --> 00:33:33.217 <v Speaker0>Because if you have a fresh university team coming out of uni, 00:33:33.357 --> 00:33:37.077 <v Speaker0>maybe a couple of months of internship experience, who have been constantly 00:33:37.077 --> 00:33:39.677 <v Speaker0>thinking about a certain problem and, you know, 00:33:40.037 --> 00:33:43.057 <v Speaker0>they were absolutely sleepless about it and now try to attack it, 00:33:43.377 --> 00:33:47.597 <v Speaker0>which was the case in some of our investments like Tacto for the listeners. 00:33:47.597 --> 00:33:53.097 <v Speaker0>It's a Munich-based procurement software company from some of the small and 00:33:53.097 --> 00:33:56.097 <v Speaker0>medium-sized businesses in the European economy. 00:33:56.277 --> 00:34:02.337 <v Speaker0>They have been obsessing over and over about how incredibly broken procurement is. 00:34:02.537 --> 00:34:04.077 <v Speaker0>It originally was their DNA. 00:34:04.497 --> 00:34:11.497 <v Speaker0>If you look at a seasoned entrepreneur, a seasoned operator entrepreneur who 00:34:11.497 --> 00:34:15.157 <v Speaker0>have been in the industry for more than 10 years, it's going to be a very different 00:34:15.157 --> 00:34:17.397 <v Speaker0>type of personal or product obsession. 00:34:17.597 --> 00:34:24.257 <v Speaker0>If, for example, somebody decides after six years of being one of the most successful, let's say. 00:34:24.837 --> 00:34:30.357 <v Speaker0>Companies or scale-ups, for example, companies like Klarna or Konto or Swile, 00:34:30.557 --> 00:34:35.377 <v Speaker0>to give you just some examples from our portfolio, to... 00:34:36.601 --> 00:34:40.841 <v Speaker0>Start from zero and start with a blank sheet of paper to start building something new. 00:34:42.201 --> 00:34:47.501 <v Speaker0>They often felt something from a market timing perspective and in a once in 00:34:47.501 --> 00:34:52.041 <v Speaker0>a lifetime perspective from an obsession perspective that they just have to make that step. 00:34:52.221 --> 00:34:56.661 <v Speaker0>And this is something that clearly comes out when you have a very open and transparent 00:34:56.661 --> 00:34:57.821 <v Speaker0>personal conversation with them. 00:34:58.761 --> 00:35:05.481 <v Speaker1>I was wondering can you give examples of painkiller versus vitamin startups 00:35:05.481 --> 00:35:08.601 <v Speaker1>and why that distinction matters 00:35:08.601 --> 00:35:17.721 <v Speaker0>Yes um it's uh it's something that we uh we really like using in the context 00:35:17.721 --> 00:35:22.161 <v Speaker0>of b2b software and that's the reason why i would personally be an absolutely 00:35:22.161 --> 00:35:26.221 <v Speaker0>horrible consumer investor, because for me, 00:35:26.501 --> 00:35:31.241 <v Speaker0>comprehending painkiller versus vitamin in that context is just very, very difficult. 00:35:31.621 --> 00:35:37.521 <v Speaker0>In B2B software, it's from at least a theoretical perspective, you know, 00:35:38.527 --> 00:35:43.667 <v Speaker0>It's something relatively simple to identify. From a conceptual perspective, 00:35:44.247 --> 00:35:49.487 <v Speaker0>a painkiller is something that can help your customer either increase your revenues 00:35:49.487 --> 00:35:53.987 <v Speaker0>or decrease costs, or will be absolutely mission critical for you to operate. 00:35:54.727 --> 00:35:57.747 <v Speaker0>If you look at, for example, 00:35:58.347 --> 00:36:04.187 <v Speaker0>some of the agentic AI companies that try to automate your sales team, 00:36:04.507 --> 00:36:09.507 <v Speaker0>that's a very clear, you know, impact on you being able to, for example, 00:36:09.687 --> 00:36:12.107 <v Speaker0>serve more customers or open your funnel up more. 00:36:12.287 --> 00:36:15.787 <v Speaker0>So really try to, for example, drive your supply. If you look at, 00:36:15.847 --> 00:36:19.307 <v Speaker0>for example, some of the agency AI companies that are trying to automate your 00:36:19.307 --> 00:36:20.227 <v Speaker0>back office end-to-end, 00:36:20.567 --> 00:36:25.107 <v Speaker0>you pretty much can replace very concretely headcounts in your back office at 00:36:25.107 --> 00:36:27.487 <v Speaker0>a fraction of the cost. So that's really doing that. 00:36:27.647 --> 00:36:32.527 <v Speaker0>If you look at companies like Stripe, for example, that's a very clear example 00:36:32.527 --> 00:36:37.287 <v Speaker0>of a company that is just mission critical for you to operate because otherwise you don't get paid. 00:36:38.267 --> 00:36:41.327 <v Speaker0>So this is pretty much how we try to think about it. 00:36:42.107 --> 00:36:47.747 <v Speaker0>One very interesting thing when we are thinking about peculer versus vitamin 00:36:47.747 --> 00:36:52.467 <v Speaker0>is that in reality, things work sometimes in a different way. 00:36:53.247 --> 00:36:56.707 <v Speaker0>If you look at the very concrete example of process automation, 00:36:57.087 --> 00:37:03.267 <v Speaker0>and I'm talking a little bit pre-AI era, there have been a huge wave of some 00:37:03.267 --> 00:37:07.447 <v Speaker0>of these RPA companies that were trying to pretty much automate anything that 00:37:07.447 --> 00:37:09.187 <v Speaker0>Zapier and UiPath couldn't. 00:37:09.187 --> 00:37:12.047 <v Speaker0>But yet they were not successful. 00:37:12.627 --> 00:37:17.807 <v Speaker0>Why is that? It's very obvious from a conceptual point of view that if you automate 00:37:17.807 --> 00:37:19.967 <v Speaker0>something, then you also save money. 00:37:20.247 --> 00:37:24.527 <v Speaker0>Yes, that is absolutely true. But if your customers don't want to automate those 00:37:24.527 --> 00:37:27.187 <v Speaker0>things and they are not in the business of automating things, 00:37:27.347 --> 00:37:31.867 <v Speaker0>it becomes often very difficult for them to convince that they need to give 00:37:31.867 --> 00:37:34.287 <v Speaker0>the extra upfront investment for those cost savings. 00:37:34.507 --> 00:37:40.567 <v Speaker0>And that's where we always try to match the conceptual understanding of what 00:37:40.567 --> 00:37:44.087 <v Speaker0>is a painkiller with reality of what actually is a painkiller. 00:37:46.667 --> 00:37:52.567 <v Speaker1>We've been talking in the introduction that you do have a background in competitive sports. 00:37:52.807 --> 00:37:58.067 <v Speaker1>How does this influence your judgment in high-stakes investment decisions? 00:37:59.107 --> 00:38:01.127 <v Speaker0>Competitive sports is a really... 00:38:02.068 --> 00:38:07.688 <v Speaker0>Interesting environment. And there are a lot of parallels when you're thinking 00:38:07.688 --> 00:38:11.948 <v Speaker0>about company building, because in competitive sports, 00:38:12.328 --> 00:38:18.308 <v Speaker0>in many cases, you have to prepare for one single event that might happen once 00:38:18.308 --> 00:38:22.868 <v Speaker0>a year, once every two years, or in the case of the Olympics, once every four years. 00:38:24.428 --> 00:38:28.528 <v Speaker0>And you have to show up every day, sometimes every day, twice, 00:38:28.788 --> 00:38:34.568 <v Speaker0>training up to 14 times a week, give your absolute best and think about how 00:38:34.568 --> 00:38:38.748 <v Speaker0>you can be your better self every single day for that one single event. 00:38:39.328 --> 00:38:44.348 <v Speaker0>And sometimes you have an injury that comes in that takes you back, 00:38:44.448 --> 00:38:49.128 <v Speaker0>let's say, four to five months in your preparation and you cannot do anything 00:38:49.128 --> 00:38:51.008 <v Speaker0>with it. But there are a lot of crisis situations. 00:38:52.628 --> 00:38:58.128 <v Speaker0>And if you look at the most successful people in sports and competitive sports, 00:38:58.368 --> 00:39:02.668 <v Speaker0>they are able to deal with setbacks incredibly well. 00:39:03.668 --> 00:39:08.308 <v Speaker0>Keeping their cool in those events is something that is really exceptional. 00:39:08.528 --> 00:39:12.128 <v Speaker0>And if you look at some of the top athletes, there's just something that comes out again and again. 00:39:13.208 --> 00:39:19.768 <v Speaker0>When it comes to investing and having an honest conversation with a founder, 00:39:20.128 --> 00:39:24.148 <v Speaker0>this type of pressure test also, I would say, can be very much applied. 00:39:24.928 --> 00:39:29.588 <v Speaker0>And if you're having an honest conversation about the most, 00:39:29.908 --> 00:39:34.888 <v Speaker0>the highest heated crisis situations that they ever had in their life and listen 00:39:34.888 --> 00:39:40.588 <v Speaker0>to how they dealt with it, it's something that really shows how they deal with the situations. 00:39:40.928 --> 00:39:46.248 <v Speaker0>Because these situations happen. And as a founder, you just have to solve them. 00:39:46.908 --> 00:39:52.468 <v Speaker0>And this is something that we always have as a bit of an exercise. 00:39:52.468 --> 00:39:57.448 <v Speaker0>And what some of our best founders absolutely managed to do incredibly well 00:39:57.448 --> 00:40:00.808 <v Speaker0>is to assess the situation, understand what you can do about it, 00:40:00.908 --> 00:40:03.688 <v Speaker0>what you can't do about it, and act like that. 00:40:07.308 --> 00:40:11.828 <v Speaker1>Let's talk a little bit about applied AI and SaaS adoption. 00:40:12.288 --> 00:40:18.668 <v Speaker1>You said AI will be the biggest driver of SaaS adoption, particularly in industrial 00:40:18.668 --> 00:40:21.628 <v Speaker1>sectors. Can you a little bit expand on that? 00:40:21.748 --> 00:40:27.608 <v Speaker1>Because you also said the classical SaaS, how does this fit together here? 00:40:29.300 --> 00:40:37.100 <v Speaker0>So you mean the classical SaaS will cease to exist in the form that it has been existing? 00:40:37.600 --> 00:40:43.280 <v Speaker1>Yes, in the form right now. And where will it go? What will be the next iteration, 00:40:43.520 --> 00:40:45.040 <v Speaker1>the next form of classical SaaS? 00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:52.200 <v Speaker0>This is a really interesting topic. And I think everybody is to some extent 00:40:52.200 --> 00:40:53.900 <v Speaker0>still very speculative about it. 00:40:54.880 --> 00:41:00.900 <v Speaker0>But what we have seen already in the last couple of months or one or two years 00:41:00.900 --> 00:41:08.940 <v Speaker0>is that the ultimate application interface that people in these environments 00:41:08.940 --> 00:41:13.600 <v Speaker0>are using to execute on certain workflows is completely changing. 00:41:13.600 --> 00:41:19.080 <v Speaker0>If you, for example, look at very traditional software as a service, 00:41:19.420 --> 00:41:26.220 <v Speaker0>as mentioned, you might have some backend database, some features that people input data in, 00:41:26.640 --> 00:41:31.580 <v Speaker0>maybe the software application is processing this data, and then you have an output. 00:41:32.460 --> 00:41:37.140 <v Speaker0>That's something that, given the capabilities of what's changing right now, 00:41:37.380 --> 00:41:44.820 <v Speaker0>in my view, will really, really change just from the perspective that if you 00:41:44.820 --> 00:41:47.440 <v Speaker0>look at how traditionally workflow has been executed, 00:41:48.260 --> 00:41:54.380 <v Speaker0>especially in the case of knowledge work, 80% of knowledge work is just finding, 00:41:55.020 --> 00:42:00.340 <v Speaker0>some processing and summarizing information and maybe passing it on to the next person. 00:42:00.340 --> 00:42:05.720 <v Speaker0>This is something that can be done incredibly well using AI. 00:42:06.120 --> 00:42:12.240 <v Speaker0>And not only it's possible right now to remove some of the intermediary steps, 00:42:12.460 --> 00:42:17.120 <v Speaker0>but you can also completely rethink how the whole workflow is executed. 00:42:17.380 --> 00:42:22.180 <v Speaker0>Because if you look at this whole concept from a data perspective and data processing 00:42:22.180 --> 00:42:26.040 <v Speaker0>perspective, an agent or AI agent, 00:42:26.735 --> 00:42:32.075 <v Speaker0>does not necessarily have to process the data the exact same way as a human 00:42:32.075 --> 00:42:34.095 <v Speaker0>being would, right? Ultimately. 00:42:34.555 --> 00:42:40.635 <v Speaker0>And this is something where I do think that AI as an application layer will 00:42:40.635 --> 00:42:44.095 <v Speaker0>completely change the way that industrial companies work. 00:42:44.295 --> 00:42:47.375 <v Speaker0>Just let's take a very, I would say, concrete look at procurement. 00:42:47.695 --> 00:42:51.575 <v Speaker0>Ultimately, if you are head of procurement at some of these industrial companies. 00:42:52.635 --> 00:42:55.575 <v Speaker0>Your number one job as procurement leaders 00:42:55.575 --> 00:42:59.495 <v Speaker0>usually say is to keep your job because procurement 00:42:59.495 --> 00:43:02.635 <v Speaker0>is a bit of a loser game right you ultimately make sure 00:43:02.635 --> 00:43:07.695 <v Speaker0>that everything is procured on time at the best price and it arrives um if it 00:43:07.695 --> 00:43:11.595 <v Speaker0>does that then great you're doing a great job if it doesn't then then it's not 00:43:11.595 --> 00:43:17.155 <v Speaker0>so ultimately um if you look at how procurement leaders have been using software 00:43:17.155 --> 00:43:21.815 <v Speaker0>for example in the past is that um They had to enter, for example, 00:43:22.495 --> 00:43:26.995 <v Speaker0>their system or ERP system to look up inventory, talk to product, 00:43:27.095 --> 00:43:28.655 <v Speaker0>talk to product, engineering, sales. 00:43:28.935 --> 00:43:32.155 <v Speaker0>What do you need to procure? Ultimately, go up to your supplier, 00:43:33.315 --> 00:43:39.235 <v Speaker0>open some type of supplier database, look at some catalogs, submit some purchase orders. 00:43:39.475 --> 00:43:43.895 <v Speaker0>And it was all a little bit of a chaotic workflow from the perspective of what you needed to do. 00:43:44.575 --> 00:43:47.555 <v Speaker0>But if you look at ultimately what, for example, 00:43:47.735 --> 00:43:51.535 <v Speaker0>some of the AI capabilities can unlock when 00:43:51.535 --> 00:43:56.935 <v Speaker0>it comes to understanding need budget analysis and what you ultimately need 00:43:56.935 --> 00:44:01.915 <v Speaker0>to execute on at a given point in time and what you need to optimize for is 00:44:01.915 --> 00:44:08.755 <v Speaker0>something that is very different from how you would work as an individual human 00:44:08.755 --> 00:44:11.495 <v Speaker0>and how you would process this information and pass it on, if that makes sense. 00:44:13.895 --> 00:44:13.915 <v Speaker1>Thank you. 00:44:15.447 --> 00:44:23.187 <v Speaker1>Definitely makes sense, but it takes a while until it sinks in what this really 00:44:23.187 --> 00:44:27.007 <v Speaker1>means and how it actually applies to different industries. 00:44:28.327 --> 00:44:33.667 <v Speaker1>I don't claim I'm through with this thinking by getting closer and closer. 00:44:34.247 --> 00:44:40.307 <v Speaker1>You are also connecting AI startups with LPs to solve real problems. 00:44:41.007 --> 00:44:44.807 <v Speaker1>And how does a successful case for such a corporation look like? 00:44:47.067 --> 00:44:50.367 <v Speaker0>Yes. So this is something that we talked about. And, you know, 00:44:50.487 --> 00:44:52.687 <v Speaker0>when we built the fund or started building the fund, 00:44:52.827 --> 00:44:59.187 <v Speaker0>we wanted to make sure that we have this unique ingredient of having the connection 00:44:59.187 --> 00:45:04.607 <v Speaker0>to these limited partners of industrial family businesses who represent a very 00:45:04.607 --> 00:45:06.367 <v Speaker0>significant portion of the economy. 00:45:07.767 --> 00:45:11.867 <v Speaker0>Because very often, if you look at B2B software, 00:45:12.387 --> 00:45:16.887 <v Speaker0>you know, AI, or call it pretty much any type of technology at the moment in 00:45:16.887 --> 00:45:21.767 <v Speaker0>Europe, if you want to build a multi-billion dollar outcome as an entrepreneur, 00:45:22.127 --> 00:45:27.187 <v Speaker0>it's very difficult to ignore this group of family business entrepreneurs and 00:45:27.187 --> 00:45:28.347 <v Speaker0>industrials in the long term, 00:45:29.207 --> 00:45:33.007 <v Speaker0>if you are selling to European companies. So our... 00:45:34.261 --> 00:45:39.001 <v Speaker0>Our idea was that, you know, when we build the fund is that we can connect these 00:45:39.001 --> 00:45:41.341 <v Speaker0>entrepreneurs that we back with these industrials. 00:45:42.281 --> 00:45:47.041 <v Speaker0>And, you know, as mentioned, the most important thing that we bring in as Visionaries 00:45:47.041 --> 00:45:50.741 <v Speaker0>Club is that whenever we invest with founders, and this often already starts 00:45:50.741 --> 00:45:52.421 <v Speaker0>before investment, it can be, you know, 00:45:52.941 --> 00:45:58.181 <v Speaker0>sometimes in the stage of ideation, is that we sit down together and figure 00:45:58.181 --> 00:46:02.661 <v Speaker0>out who from our industrial network is actually most helpful to talk to. 00:46:02.661 --> 00:46:08.661 <v Speaker0>From the perspective of the product that the founder is building and ultimately 00:46:08.661 --> 00:46:11.701 <v Speaker0>get them in front of the most important stakeholder, 00:46:12.141 --> 00:46:18.001 <v Speaker0>let it be a champion or an actual user of the product as soon as possible and 00:46:18.001 --> 00:46:22.821 <v Speaker0>really shorten this response time that they get from these industrial companies. 00:46:23.661 --> 00:46:27.641 <v Speaker0>And this is something we do think has a very fundamental unlock. 00:46:27.841 --> 00:46:31.581 <v Speaker0>And in many cases, some of these industrial companies might get back, 00:46:31.581 --> 00:46:34.821 <v Speaker0>hey this is incredibly relevant now we are in 00:46:34.821 --> 00:46:37.901 <v Speaker0>the middle of this massive i don't know erp migration so 00:46:37.901 --> 00:46:40.761 <v Speaker0>let's talk in six months sometimes they say this is 00:46:40.761 --> 00:46:43.701 <v Speaker0>exactly what we have been looking for for a long time let's set 00:46:43.701 --> 00:46:50.121 <v Speaker0>up a paid doc next week and sometimes it's no we will you know build this internally 00:46:50.121 --> 00:46:55.061 <v Speaker0>and this is not relevant but getting this response time versus trying to call 00:46:55.061 --> 00:46:59.441 <v Speaker0>it inbound some of these industrial businesses that are not on not even on linkedin 00:46:59.441 --> 00:47:01.861 <v Speaker0>is something that is very contrasting. 00:47:02.001 --> 00:47:07.621 <v Speaker0>In an ideal scenario, whenever we can connect these industrial businesses with 00:47:07.621 --> 00:47:11.361 <v Speaker0>the founders that we are working with, we can really shorten this cycle. 00:47:11.881 --> 00:47:16.701 <v Speaker0>In the most exceptional cases, founders can pretty much champion these companies 00:47:16.701 --> 00:47:20.281 <v Speaker0>as well as if they were, let's say, technology companies. 00:47:20.781 --> 00:47:23.021 <v Speaker0>This is where the magic of 3D exceptional founders lie. 00:47:23.961 --> 00:47:27.301 <v Speaker0>We don't guarantee any paid contracts. 00:47:27.501 --> 00:47:32.021 <v Speaker0>This is not the business we are in, But this kind of door opening function is what we've. 00:47:33.701 --> 00:47:38.141 <v Speaker1>Past success is no indication for future performance. The usual disclaimer in 00:47:38.141 --> 00:47:39.401 <v Speaker1>financial services. Yes. 00:47:39.821 --> 00:47:46.261 <v Speaker1>Let us go a little bit shortly into Europe's venture capital landscape. 00:47:46.261 --> 00:47:49.101 <v Speaker1>If you still have a little bit time. Yes. 00:47:50.221 --> 00:47:56.321 <v Speaker1>What are the biggest challenges European founders face today and how can they overcome them? 00:47:58.289 --> 00:48:04.769 <v Speaker0>The biggest challenge European founders face today is ultimately what everybody 00:48:04.769 --> 00:48:08.129 <v Speaker0>says, which is fragmentation of the European ecosystem. 00:48:09.029 --> 00:48:15.949 <v Speaker0>And why we think fragmentation is the biggest challenge at the moment is because 00:48:15.949 --> 00:48:21.909 <v Speaker0>various different ecosystems are in very different maturity stages. 00:48:22.229 --> 00:48:26.529 <v Speaker0>If you look at London, if you look at Paris, if you look at some of these ecosystems, 00:48:26.529 --> 00:48:32.949 <v Speaker0>they have a history of producing some really exceptional, you know, venture outcomes. 00:48:33.349 --> 00:48:37.369 <v Speaker0>And some of these venture outcomes started producing some really exceptional 00:48:37.369 --> 00:48:40.309 <v Speaker0>operators who might end up, you know, starting new companies. 00:48:40.509 --> 00:48:43.689 <v Speaker0>And for example, if you have a proximity of a university, 00:48:43.689 --> 00:48:47.889 <v Speaker0>you might even have the chance to bring some of these entrepreneurs or operators 00:48:47.889 --> 00:48:52.009 <v Speaker0>into some of these hubs that can really enable entrepreneurs not only to just 00:48:52.009 --> 00:48:54.049 <v Speaker0>pull the trigger and start something new and take risk, 00:48:54.049 --> 00:48:58.229 <v Speaker0>but also to be able to hire exceptional talent and start, you know, 00:48:58.429 --> 00:48:59.789 <v Speaker0>selling to the local ecosystem. 00:49:00.829 --> 00:49:05.849 <v Speaker0>Now, this is not the case for all ecosystems. If you look at some of, 00:49:05.949 --> 00:49:10.609 <v Speaker0>you know, other cities, the ecosystem are in very different stages. 00:49:10.969 --> 00:49:14.809 <v Speaker0>But ultimately, if you look at, for example, the example of Miro, 00:49:15.309 --> 00:49:20.409 <v Speaker0>Andrei started it from a small town in Russia called Perm that many people didn't even hear about. 00:49:20.409 --> 00:49:26.429 <v Speaker0>And through this big filter he managed to build it into a successful enough 00:49:26.429 --> 00:49:31.549 <v Speaker0>outcome that now is a globally leading company but if you put, 00:49:32.509 --> 00:49:37.129 <v Speaker0>yourself into the shoes of something like that, the amount of challenges that 00:49:37.129 --> 00:49:38.769 <v Speaker0>you need to go through and the, 00:49:39.672 --> 00:49:44.132 <v Speaker0>amount of pushback that you will get that will set you back in terms of timeline 00:49:44.132 --> 00:49:47.832 <v Speaker0>and how fast you can market your product is exponentially higher. 00:49:48.332 --> 00:49:51.552 <v Speaker0>And the more remote the ecosystem is, the more difficult it is ultimately. 00:49:52.592 --> 00:49:56.372 <v Speaker0>And this is something that is already changing, but ultimately this is the very 00:49:56.372 --> 00:49:58.812 <v Speaker0>reason why we set up Visionaries Club in the way that we did. 00:49:58.992 --> 00:50:02.272 <v Speaker0>That if we back, for example, a young entrepreneur out of Munich, 00:50:02.492 --> 00:50:05.432 <v Speaker0>who, you know, Munich is already a pretty advanced ecosystem, 00:50:05.652 --> 00:50:11.552 <v Speaker0>but if they want to connect to a wide range of entrepreneurs who either successfully 00:50:11.552 --> 00:50:14.852 <v Speaker0>navigated a certain landscape in a certain industry, traditionally, 00:50:15.132 --> 00:50:19.812 <v Speaker0>it has been incredibly difficult for them to get a meaningful connection with these people. 00:50:20.832 --> 00:50:26.252 <v Speaker0>But via our approach, we really try to work on that and facilitate that. 00:50:28.872 --> 00:50:34.172 <v Speaker1>How should European VCs adapt to stay global competitive? 00:50:34.172 --> 00:50:41.172 <v Speaker1>Because I've seen in the past a few analyzers that, at least from the perspective 00:50:41.172 --> 00:50:48.232 <v Speaker1>of the LPs, the European VCs have outperformed over time their American counterparts. 00:50:48.332 --> 00:50:51.452 <v Speaker1>So they did have a competitive advantage. 00:50:51.772 --> 00:50:57.472 <v Speaker1>How can they keep pushing it in their increasingly fractured world right now? 00:50:58.352 --> 00:51:03.672 <v Speaker0>Venture capital traditionally has been and always will be driven by power law. 00:51:04.172 --> 00:51:08.332 <v Speaker0>So there will be a lot of winners. And it's very difficult to give, 00:51:08.472 --> 00:51:12.212 <v Speaker0>I would say, a collective formula of how European venture capital funds, 00:51:12.312 --> 00:51:14.292 <v Speaker0>all of them can stay more competitive. 00:51:14.612 --> 00:51:18.172 <v Speaker0>And when you say, you know, European venture capital funds, 00:51:18.972 --> 00:51:22.832 <v Speaker0>it almost feels like that, you know, you would need to move the whole curve 00:51:22.832 --> 00:51:28.172 <v Speaker0>in a certain way, which is somewhat tied to maker environment. 00:51:28.492 --> 00:51:30.152 <v Speaker0>But what I can say is that... 00:51:32.272 --> 00:51:37.272 <v Speaker0>In order for some of the European venture capital funds that can be successful 00:51:37.272 --> 00:51:40.432 <v Speaker0>is completely to be on the ground. 00:51:41.192 --> 00:51:47.152 <v Speaker0>Because if you look at the amount of time it takes for a certain ecosystem to 00:51:47.152 --> 00:51:50.852 <v Speaker0>absolutely ignite, it can be very, very short. 00:51:51.232 --> 00:51:57.912 <v Speaker0>And if you are trying to run this from behind your desktop, I think it's a very, very difficult job. 00:51:58.052 --> 00:52:02.512 <v Speaker0>And I think you see this story very interestingly playing out right now in the 00:52:02.512 --> 00:52:05.772 <v Speaker0>case of Stockholm, where a couple of companies, including Glovable, 00:52:06.792 --> 00:52:11.712 <v Speaker0>just absolutely demonstrated how you can get onto the path of building a globally 00:52:11.712 --> 00:52:13.892 <v Speaker0>leading company in a very short period of time. 00:52:14.592 --> 00:52:19.692 <v Speaker0>And taking that encouragement, many, many other really exceptional talent in 00:52:19.692 --> 00:52:22.252 <v Speaker0>the ecosystem had the courage to start new companies. 00:52:22.632 --> 00:52:26.812 <v Speaker0>And pretty much within the matter of six months it 00:52:26.812 --> 00:52:29.952 <v Speaker0>became from a really interesting ecosystem into 00:52:29.952 --> 00:52:33.272 <v Speaker0>one of the leading ecosystems i would say in europe and if you're a venture 00:52:33.272 --> 00:52:37.632 <v Speaker0>investor you just have to be there and see that for yourself speak to the founders 00:52:37.632 --> 00:52:43.272 <v Speaker0>because they will grow they will build very successful companies very fast and 00:52:43.272 --> 00:52:47.852 <v Speaker0>if you're an early stage investor and you're not there you you will miss a thousand a. 00:52:47.852 --> 00:52:51.912 <v Speaker1>Very last high level question what needs 00:52:51.912 --> 00:52:55.932 <v Speaker1>to change in how early stage capital supports 00:52:55.932 --> 00:52:58.832 <v Speaker1>technical founders in europe because we do have 00:52:58.832 --> 00:53:03.332 <v Speaker1>a lot of very good universities very good technical universities lots of stem 00:53:03.332 --> 00:53:09.872 <v Speaker1>talent but i do see a lot of them struggling uh to get out not only but also 00:53:09.872 --> 00:53:16.612 <v Speaker1>in terms of biotech and so on and so forth to really get the support they need And admittedly, 00:53:17.092 --> 00:53:21.692 <v Speaker1>Technical University Unique and Unternehmertum are getting very good at this, 00:53:21.852 --> 00:53:25.912 <v Speaker1>but they need more to change. 00:53:26.132 --> 00:53:31.012 <v Speaker1>Do you have a few ideas what needs to change in order to support them better, 00:53:31.192 --> 00:53:34.592 <v Speaker1>get them more opportunity to find a company right out of university? 00:53:36.351 --> 00:53:44.931 <v Speaker0>Yes, absolutely. The most important challenge is bringing back exceptional execution 00:53:44.931 --> 00:53:50.811 <v Speaker0>and commercial talents and connecting them with early STEM talent as soon as possible. 00:53:51.471 --> 00:53:55.671 <v Speaker0>If you take the example of Hungary and Eastern Europe, where I'm from ultimately, 00:53:56.091 --> 00:54:01.011 <v Speaker0>and this is a conversation I just had with a Hungarian VC founder that just got into VC. 00:54:02.411 --> 00:54:07.231 <v Speaker0>I'm now 29. He's, I think, also towards that age. 00:54:08.011 --> 00:54:14.571 <v Speaker0>Up until we finished our maybe second degree or master's or started working 00:54:14.571 --> 00:54:19.011 <v Speaker0>in the first position, we didn't have a clue about what venture capital is or 00:54:19.011 --> 00:54:20.991 <v Speaker0>what entrepreneurship truly is. 00:54:21.151 --> 00:54:25.611 <v Speaker0>We heard about the concept of starting a company, but the concept of what it 00:54:25.611 --> 00:54:31.591 <v Speaker0>means to take risk and pulling the trigger to build something massive was absolutely missing. 00:54:31.851 --> 00:54:35.611 <v Speaker0>And this is something, for example, You absolutely see in many business universities 00:54:35.611 --> 00:54:39.431 <v Speaker0>already happening in the West, in Deha, you have successful e-commerce founders 00:54:39.431 --> 00:54:42.831 <v Speaker0>going back and saying, you can start this company, you can start this company. 00:54:43.051 --> 00:54:47.311 <v Speaker0>And then you have students sitting there and having a conversation after the 00:54:47.311 --> 00:54:49.911 <v Speaker0>lecture about, hey, actually, we should start doing this. 00:54:50.051 --> 00:54:56.311 <v Speaker0>We are in a time of our life where pretty much we can take the most risks that we can. 00:54:56.511 --> 00:55:01.571 <v Speaker0>And this mindset is something that is very, very difficult to bring back very early. 00:55:01.571 --> 00:55:06.491 <v Speaker0>But the more early you can bring it, as soon as possible, pretty much start 00:55:06.491 --> 00:55:11.371 <v Speaker0>of university, ideally, the earlier you start a spark for these type of conversations 00:55:11.371 --> 00:55:13.131 <v Speaker0>and encouragement also across students. 00:55:13.131 --> 00:55:16.591 <v Speaker0>So I would say for all those different ecosystems that you have in STEM, 00:55:16.851 --> 00:55:20.631 <v Speaker0>you know, all across Europe, as you mentioned, you have TUM, 00:55:20.731 --> 00:55:24.391 <v Speaker0>you have ETH, you have Oxbridge, you have so many of these universities. 00:55:25.431 --> 00:55:29.031 <v Speaker0>The ability to connect students with those entrepreneurs that really, 00:55:29.111 --> 00:55:34.571 <v Speaker0>really made it there is something that is, in my perspective, is really missing. 00:55:36.051 --> 00:55:41.211 <v Speaker1>I see. Martin, thank you very much. it was a pleasure having you as a guest 00:55:41.211 --> 00:55:45.511 <v Speaker1>hope to have you back and for everybody who'd like to learn more we link of 00:55:45.511 --> 00:55:50.091 <v Speaker1>course your LinkedIn profile the website of Visionaries Club what's the best way to pitch 00:55:51.751 --> 00:55:55.171 <v Speaker0>Just pretty much send an email martin at visionariesclub.vc. 00:55:55.831 --> 00:56:01.491 <v Speaker1>I do have a game that's going on since I interviewed a few years ago Alex from 00:56:01.491 --> 00:56:04.631 <v Speaker1>Frankenberg from Hitech Grunafor and I was 00:56:06.251 --> 00:56:11.691 <v Speaker1>wondering if you get an email that only says the headline yo we should talk would you reply 00:56:14.811 --> 00:56:20.631 <v Speaker0>The headline i would say we don't i personally don't care that much about uh 00:56:20.631 --> 00:56:24.271 <v Speaker0>what's in the message is um is is a little bit more important. 00:56:24.271 --> 00:56:27.051 <v Speaker1>Okay great thank you very much 00:56:27.851 --> 00:56:29.531 <v Speaker0>Pleasure thank you so much for having me. 00:56:29.680 --> 00:56:59.477 <v Music>