Latest / Meet Me At The Deli / A Pre-Fourth of July Pastrami Primer with Adam Chandler of The Wall Street Journal
Transcript
- Heeb Media: Welcome to Meet Me at the Deli, a food advice podcast, where the pickles and slaw are always free. I'm Liz. And I'm Jeffrey. Every episode we're answering your burning food and culinary questions and sharing insights and stories from years working in the industry and living in our self-made stettle. Well, Jeffrey, here we are. We have just arrived back on the boat. Off the ferry. From ⁓ Island for the Great Nosh, the Jewish Food Society for the second year in a row, I think, is through this big ⁓ 5,000 person event. 5,000 person picnic. Picnic. That's right. ⁓ I will say that for me, the best part of this day was how many people I got to see. It was really, really nice to connect with people. interestingly, right when we were on the ferry over, ⁓ we actually Clancy Miller, who is an old ⁓ colleague-ish person the cookbook world. ⁓ And she working on a picnic cookbook. And I remembered that and it was so nice to talk to her. And we just sort of like ended up walking with her a bit and like you've never met her before. So shout out Clancy and your picnic cookbook. And she was kind of there like, I'm checking out another picnic. You know what I mean? Which I thought was cool. And we saw so many other people from the Jewish food world. We saw Andy Ko, one of our authorities on bread. We saw Nate Adler from Gertrude's, and what did you say? You just opened another restaurant, Trudy's, you know. ⁓ yeah, on Court Huntington. Sam Silverman from Bagelfest. We saw Deborah First, of course, who works for Jewish Food Society, a close friend of ours. We saw, I got to see a food demo by Arielle Near, who used to be the culinary director at Jewish Food Society. Now she's making food on on stage. And actually, my my daughter really was like very enthralled and like watched the whole cooking demo. And I was like, cool, like I love this. It just I think with this kind of event ⁓ and just generally being part of something like the food world and the Jewish food world for so long. I mean, you know, ⁓ just being in line and bumping into Paul Friedman, who's the the leading scholar on restaurants in America and wrote one of my favorite books, the Ten Restaurants that defined America or I think that something along those lines and and just like being ⁓ in the kind of food community. It's like ⁓ it's nice to kind of have those touch points and to connect with people and to have that all framed around you know good food and having, you know, thoughtful, provocative conversations around that food. Yeah. Yeah. It's nice to like it was also nice that we got to go together and be like, ⁓ here we are. Like we've been doing this for a long time and here are all these people like reaping the sort like we're sort of like reaping the rewards of this these relationships that we've cultivated for so long through like warmth and connection. And yeah, it was a it was a sort of a good reminder of the bigger picture of what this is part of. Yeah. For me. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Yeah. Well ⁓ in addition to being out on Governor's Island you know on a a sunny day out in the open, I had a day ⁓ before that ⁓ at the beach out in the sun. ⁓ nice I have not beached yet. This is my first like proper beach of the season. And ⁓ I went to my one of my favorite beaches. It's you know ⁓ Brighton Beach, ⁓ down in Brooklyn. It's it's a ⁓ a lovely culinary capital of the world. Yeah, wonderful little Odessa as it snow. My father was actually born ⁓ in building where the famous Tatiana's ⁓ Really? I didn't know it was Yeah, he lived there for the first six months of his life. And so whenever I'm there, I actually see the building. It's still there. It was actually the same day as the mermaid parade. ⁓ my God. It just occurred to me. That is actually an insane day to go to the beach. Yes. That's on Coney Island, which is right next to Brighton Beach. But you're getting some of that runoff. So everyone's dressed like mermaids and doing the whole thing on the board. But it's just like such a special New York kind of experience. And I was just ⁓ so delighted to have that. So yeah. I love that. That really is. And I like I don't do it enough. And I like I feel like you you do it. Yeah, yeah. Which I love about you. Yeah. And it's like getting me in the mood and the spirit for July fourth, which is coming up. So Yeah. Yeah. Very nice. And with that, we should probably you know, bring on our our pal and friend Adam Chandler to help us answer some of these kind of more July fourth oriented type questions. July fourthy questions coming at you today on the pod. All right. Well, I am so excited that we have a special guest here today, Adam Chandler, a columnist for the Wall Street Journal, a friend of ours, a longtime colleague. at the Wall Street Journal, he's writing about the intersection of food, business, culture. Perfect for this podcast. one my favorite anecdotes about Adam is that his very first job in media was at an as an intern for Hebe ⁓ magazine. you believe it, folks? Shout out he circa however many years ago that was. We don't need Adam. No, no, let's not date ourselves. But you know, ⁓ Adam's first book, Drive Through Dreams, was a pop history of 20th century American life through the rise of the fast food industry. So we've got some awesome questions about fast food coming up in ⁓ getting ready for July 4th today. Also the 99% perspiration, Adam's ⁓ most recent book, amazing book as well. ⁓ my god. all about ⁓ small business in America. ⁓ I will just say I you have like my one of my favorite careers in writing. I feel like at one point you had like the Taco Bell beat for the Atlantic, which is kind like you know like this is like the dream beat. and ⁓ and also your subsact cr The Crunch Wrap is one of my favorite reads as well. Thank you. I will say I just ⁓ so I I was a kid who read ⁓ Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser. And I I at one point had such contempt to McDonald's. I remember like driving by and I was a kid and like glowering, giving it the finger. Like I was so angry. And your book, Drive Through Dreams, by the way, like it it kind of like healed me. And it was a love letter to America. And I it makes it actually made me appreciate what fast food actually is. And so I it really was one of the more profound reads I've I've had. So I'm just like, Super grateful for for you for giving giving bringing love into my life. Thank you. This is really I feel I feel welcomed. I feel uncomfortable with praise, but this is really nice. and cafilteria has been a big part of my life. I have bricks of everything but ⁓ everything bagel butter ⁓ stacked in my freezer from leftover from the pandemic. I made a huge amount while everyone was making sourdough. I was like, I'm gonna make the butter to go along with it. Yes, I love that. So that's been That's been the the easiest approach for me, but ⁓ i out of my sort of food into actual craft and delicious historical foods. So thank you. Of course. Thank you. Tip of the iceberg there. Yeah. Well, we were excited because we were kind of coming upon ⁓ July 4th. Sure. Thinking about you know some of the questions we were kind of getting that like really Connected to immigrant food history, ⁓ which I know you've commented on for various, you know, ⁓ food shows on television. And we've you know, there were questions that kind of were really relating to ⁓ to fast food. Some of your you're one of your unique areas of expertise. And so we were I was just delighted that we've been we've known each other in in the writing and food world for so many years, and it was kind of like you were the perfect person to come help us answer some of these questions. So I'll do my best. ⁓ do it. No pressure. ⁓ But better have thought. Yeah, tons of pressure. Could we start with the fast food question? That first one? I thought it would be let's just dive into that one. I'm I'm happy to kick it off. Here's ⁓ the question. We'll go a little out of order from what we thought. why the Jewish deli ⁓ never franchised like major fast food companies like McDonald's or, God forbid, Arby's? Nathan's Famous might be the closest since it's an old school Jewish New York business, but it's not quite a deli. I'm curious to know your thoughts and whether pastrami or corned beef sandwiches at scale would even be good. And this is from Sam in Berkeley. Hey Sam, thanks for your question. glad to be bringing on Adam for this fast food question. Well, Take it away. I don't know the answer. I have thoughts. ⁓ Well The actual truth is that it kind of has. seen Jewish deli emerge as a in in in sort of smaller forms ⁓ ⁓ American fast food. ⁓ a chain called Schlotsky's Deli, which is based out of Austin, Texas, ⁓ and by I think of immigrants, ⁓ son and of immigrants, ⁓ Don. ⁓ Don and Dolores, it's a really like perfect thing. Actually, I wrote it down somewhere. ⁓ yeah. Don and Dolores Disman. And as a Texan, I have to say, this is interesting to me. they founded a ⁓ called Schlotsky's, which the name is completely fabricated from like the kids cho ⁓ their their ch child's like ⁓ spelling blocks. But sell deli food. ⁓ And are 300 of them and they're growing. ⁓ they're owned, I wanna say by 300 of them? There are 300 of them. So that's a lot. And they do have a Reuben on the menu, and I believe it's a corned beef Ruben. ⁓ or actually, I think it's a pastrami Rubin. So ⁓ have the experience of that. But the heart of that, ⁓ the is craft, right? You really have to put in the time and the work and the effort to make something like pastrami or corned beef. McDonald's in Japan has a pastrami sandwich ⁓ that is limited time offering, that I think there's a more adventurous kind of eating there that. For test markets and other things, really drives people to try things they haven't heard of before. And I still think pastrami's the heart of it, you know, ⁓ niche. even though in our worlds, and I again I grew up in Texas, so there is like a real kitch to some of these things, ⁓ a sort of inside baseball part of it. But you'd be surprised. Arby's also has a pastrami sandwich. I've actually never been to in Arby's. Yeah. ⁓ in Arby's a couple times. Yeah. Okay. Never thought to get the pastrami. It's either it's either a corned beef or pastrami. Don't quote me on. They they definitely have a Rubin that's on the full time menu. It might be a corned beef Rubin, but on rye bread? No. I don't think so. Interesting. I don't think so. I had it years ago, but they make it and they are focused ⁓ on They promote themselves as being, you know, as having the meats and the craft of the meats, you know, they they really do. And it's it is centrally prepared. some of them are in store and they have meat slicers. That's one thing that famously Rama Manuel sliced off part of his finger, his middle finger, at an Arby's when he was working there as a teenager. Wow. That's how he lost it. And so they actually have meat slicers at these places. I actually heard it as an at a deli, interestingly enough. So there's the inflation. He might have had a little shame about it being an Arby's. There is at collectively a sense, even in this question, this question is like God forbid a sh God forbid an Arby's. But it says God forbid an Arby's. It does. So there is a real stigma about the Arby's. I could go on about this forever, but that's that's my feeling and that's that's sort of my download is that it does exist. ⁓ are versions of it. ⁓ whether they're the best version of it? I don't know. Well, and so it's not as ethnically coded. That's the other thing. Right. Right. Like where we're s what you're saying is that some of the foods have made it into chain fast food restaurants, but without some of the the Jewish story, you know, exactly attached to it. What about Nathan's? Should we talk about Nathan? Is there anything we could say about Nathan's famous for a second? Yeah, do you have any any Nathan's Nathan's history? Nathan's is great story. ⁓ well we have Fourth of July. Obviously, this is you know the hot dog eating season. ⁓ although I feel like it's it's been Glizzy season for a long time. I had a hot dog yesterday. Yeah. Delicious great. Where do we go? Maybe. Yeah, yeah. No, we go catch up. Okay. It was out a it was at a barbecue. But yeah. ⁓ is a catch up on the hot dog. We this is we have to talk about you have to talk about this multiple times. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ so we won't let it go. Nathan Handworker is ⁓ Nathan's fame. ⁓ You know, many books have been written about Nathan Handworker and his contributions to American culinary life. But he actually stole the idea while he was working at Feltman's, which is also a Coney Island institution. and Feltman sold their hot dogs for ⁓ cents. He opened one up next door, basically, and sold his for five. And he was boosted. By the opening of the subway that now goes out to Stillwell, and the hot dog stand was right there, like a mirage. You get off at the end of the train, and there's the hot dog place with five cent hot dogs, and you, of course, you eat them, and of course you go. something else that I think is super interesting about it is he coined the phrase kosher style because he people to feel comfortable eating the hot dogs. At the time, there were hot dogs that were made with. Proteins that we might find a little dicey here. And so meat was a big thing. So for people to feel comfortable, he said he had rabbinic supervision kind of wink and smile and come up with the idea of kosher style. And that persists today. You know, not meat and milk, but again, not necessarily having kosher ⁓ but having something that gives it a sense of separation. And I find that so interesting. And I find that really inventive ⁓ That's kind of what gave in addition to the price. Nathan's this nice little halo. It was it was ⁓ it was in theory more affordable, or in reality more affordable, and in theory, perhaps not quite as dicey of a proposition to eat street meat. And this was around the time of the jungle, you know, Upton Sinclair and all of the sort of theories about you know, ⁓ the meat was coming from, ⁓ there were obvious people were avoiding it anyway. Yeah, well in the well so that's my book report. Feltman's though, was that was ⁓ that was that the first one to put hot dog on a bun? I was like like the e like the credited I I know these are the some of these apocryphal stories, but like the idea of a bun first going on a hot dog, and this was ⁓ he was a Jewish immigrant, he was German. And then Hanver ⁓ Handwerker, Nathan, he was Polish. A Polish Jew? Yes, you said his name right too, which is great. I was just like Handwerker. Handwerker. Handwerker. Yes, that's very much ⁓ The kind of story of it. It it is an immigrant food that becomes Americanized in this unique way. the same way that kind of the hamburger as well also has this by it in a specialty bun, it takes on this whole new life and this whole new meaning and it becomes this American icon, even though there's this case to be made that there are Central European kind of history to it. it goes back to pastrami, which was not a sandwich in Eastern Europe, you know, and then it comes to America. It gets, you know, Americanized and it's between two pieces of bread. Yeah. It's hot. And that's just not how it was. It's funny, I think we always always talk about pastrami as like the star of the deli, but it's like the hot dog's really the one that like like you know took off I like, you every every deli has a hot dog. Talk about really make it's almost like it got too famous, it's like the pastrami just like, you know, it still stays within like the the world of deli, whereas ⁓ hot dogs are on their own plane. I don't know, I disagree. There are no hot dogs at Arby's. So You may just need to think twice about how to quickly ⁓ have you been to the Nathans in on Coney Island? Of course. Yeah. They have like all sorts of things there. Like they have like fried frogs legs and other things. ⁓ I've never seen that. I I I've I've gotten a lot of French fries there. That's my go-to, is the French fries. Yeah, I think the one in Coney Island has more on the menu than some of the I mean that one is really. Well, in New Jersey near me, there was a chain of these Texas Wiener places. Like Texas Wiener One, Texas Wiener Two, Texas Wiener Three. And ⁓ and we we never went to them because they weren't kosher and we would only go to a kosher, kosher style hot dog place. so it is interesting to think about this like quintessential American food having this kind of New York Jewish identity. Even in ⁓ Detroit area, they have the Coney Island, the Coneys. Yeah. These like the that's like their diner, but they're like ⁓ you get the hot dogs and like the influence of that on across America. Right. I mean, that's so wild. I know, I think about this ⁓ The question, like this fast food question, and I don't know like Schlotsky's if is it like is i if it really is like a fast food, like is it like a McDonald's-ified place or is it a is it a deliberate? I mean 300 of them is it's it has it has it has the private equity backing and the scale. It doesn't these days. I know. It has the private equity backing and the scale that would make you think this is is fast food. However, ⁓ when you go when you go in, it's not it's not quite it's not quite There's no it's counter service, you go up in order. There's there are no servers that come up to you. So there are aspects of it that speak to what you would call quick service. It might be fast casual versus fast food, but the distinctions between those are like kind of blurring these days anyway. So from a technical standpoint, it falls somewhere in the middle. But is interesting just to think of a place that has invested in ⁓ at scale those kinds of sandwiches. And that's that's meaningful. Yeah. It is interesting thinking about I feel like ⁓ there's a vegan deli called Ben and Esther's that's opened a number of places in Portland and I think they've opened ⁓ in a few other cities and they're like really trying to create kind of this, you know, fast casual or fast food concept. And then ⁓ there are I think about ⁓ Kenyan Zooks that ⁓ is I think no longer around but was in Portland that was trying to kind of open and they're opening at the airport. You kind of see whenever I see a deli open at an airport, you know, and like it's kind of the like the quick version of it. I always feel like I'm like, ⁓ they're they're they're making that attempt right to kind of get there. for me it's like they just it's ⁓ it hits, you know? And it's like like the pastrami, like you know, no one's hands carving a pastrami at an airport, you know. ⁓ And not and and you're getting these like machine sliced, dry, done in advance, you know, you all the ⁓ those the care that goes into what makes a deli so good the good ones. You just even going to I think about Liz and I all you we so ⁓ many times have been to the second Avenue Deli, like it's all those little other things. It's like it's the schmaltzi kashavanushka's, it's like the waiters coming and there they actually have nice waiters coming over. There's like the the table. The way that they like pour the broth, the consomme, the matzal soup, and the flair. Yeah. And if you strip it all down and you just have like the just like the foods without the you know, like the space, the third space, what makes the deli so special. Like what are you actually getting? I mean, and and so I am thinking about that. Like I I don't think I'd want the fast food the fast foodification of the Jewish deli. I I'd rather have fewer of them, but they're really good than have like really crappy, you know, deli, you know, in airports. Yeah. mean, I totally hear you. I also I mean, it's so beautiful. And I also think what if that's one of the evolutions that the deli could take on, right? Like we know that the deli is not a sustainable model financially. We know that there's a reason that delis have Closed. They don't have, you know, that it didn't meet people's dietary needs to the extent that it needed to. And so new delis that are opening are having salads on the menu and they're having vegetarian things on the menu and they're having a much smaller menu than they used to have. And so there's these this question about like what is the deli? What d what has become of the Jewish deli? And I I don't I don't need it to become a fast food restaurant, but I just just wonder if like that is one that is one branch ⁓ the deli trajectory, in that we know that the classic deli of the Second Avenue is that is a rare breed. This point, right? Like that's not that doesn't exist that many places with that atmosphere. I too only want that, and that's why I live here. Because I want to go there anytime I want, you know. Like I go to ⁓ Katz's, for example, I hop in, I just go to the corner, the hot dog section, I go to the mill bays in Delhi, I just go get a hot dog and a kniche. And to me, that's that's fast food too. Like that's like the deli's version. Like that's what they do quickly and they do best. Yeah. Beautiful. Well, thanks, Sam. From Berkeley, thanks for the question. Thanks for having us have an excuse to bring Adam on. Yeah. Sam really set us off on a path there. No, we could talk about this all day. Okay. And all right. We got another one, and we and we know about your Texas bona fides, and so we had to bring you in too. This was the right one for you. Okay. is from Diana from Long Island. I'm lifelong New Yorker and my fiancee is from Texas. We recently debated the ⁓ true of Pistrami. ⁓ What's the difference between between Texas style and New York style pastrami? Well, to to get started on pastrami, I think we owe the universe a primer on pastrami. And I I feel like you two have probably a pretty good grasp on its yeah ⁓ its origins, ⁓ a as a misunderstood item that means something different historically than it does in American context. Yeah, I I think that, you know, ⁓ you know, there's there are some debates around the origin of pastrami, but like I like I I know it as like this Turkish pastrama that I c you know is ⁓ you know ⁓ dry aged on like under saddles on horseback, you know. Yeah. ⁓ and then I you know, I ⁓ you know, it's really it's we owe pastrami here to the Romanian immigrants that brought pastrami from Romania, like the I always think about the Jewish pastrami that was often eaten in ⁓ that region was often made it was often ⁓ you know, served. It was a a a ⁓ Room temperature cured meat. and it was goose. It was goose ⁓ with local. It was not necessarily beef. Yeah. And ⁓ had your pork pastrami, ⁓ the non-Jews in Romania, they enjoyed that. And then ⁓ you you have this you know, this intense spicing, the rub. That's what makes it so special. The polyander and the peppercorn rub, other various other things mixed in. ⁓ but those those are kind of like that's the essence of it. And here comes comes to America, and here in America we have Cheap beef coming over from the Midwest. And we have these Polish immigrants who take over the German delicatessens and they create these Jewish delicatessens, and you get this, you're making pastrami, you're making it with the beef, you're serving it ⁓ suddenly hot, and you're putting it on rye bread for on the go. So you can go to your garment your your job at the garment factory and you can take your kanish with the leftovers wrapped up in it. And like the pastrami was met the moment here. And and it's worth it's worth noting that what the Jewish deli is and was is this where pan-Ashkenazi Jewish food could could come together. So that's why it made sense that something that was Romanian made sense with Polish Jews who did not necessarily have the same food traditions, but roughly had similar reference points, right? And they're working together in these spaces that have been taken over from the Germans. So there's like a it's very it's a polyglot. Yeah, you know. I love that part of the story in part because while we have this perception of what of what pastrami originally was and what it the original interpretation, and then it has this interaction with American food culture, and that's when it becomes something totally different. And takes on this whole new meeting, and there are all these different versions of it, leading us to New York versus Texas. ⁓ I gotta be honest, I actually don't know much about Texas style pastrami. Like I know about Texas style barbecue. Yeah, barbecue, Texas style brisket. But like this is something that's kind of eluded me too. So I was actually very curious to have a a Texan Jew living in New York talk about this. Thank you, Diana from Long Island and your Texan fiance. So what's interesting to me about this is to your point, I grew up not knowing much about Texas pastrami. It's only in the last like 10 or 15 years of of scholarship have people been bringing up Texas Texas style pastrami as sort of lost to time tradition that. speaks to the origins of pastrami in my experience. And I know there are plenty of people who may have had some kind of interaction with what they'd call Texas tell pastrami. I know it is made with brisket in the way that New York is not always made with brisket, rarely made with pastrame. Naval, yeah naval navel kind of navel gazing Jews here. Although pastramis and the smoked meat of Montreal Montreal is brisket too. So ⁓ have a different cut that we're we're talking about here. And there's this real, you know, sort of dry rub part of the Texas meat culture that means that you're not supposed to have any sauce at all. So ⁓ my mother makes a mean brisket and she doesn't serve it with sauce, and it would be insult to if you were to ask for sauce for the brisket. But if you go to, you know, Russia Shana dinner and there's a Passover or Passover brisket, and sometimes it comes with sauce in other parts of the country, in part because that's that's the norm. So I think that's part of it is basically how ⁓ sort of ⁓ cultures of these two different parts of the country have interacted. But ultimately they're it's impossible to define, you know, because pastrami, like we've kind of explained, has all of these interesting origins that contain all of these various interactions and sort of encounters with different cultures assimilating and bringing their own tradition to it. So They both, it sounds like came up around the same time. they both kind of entered the lexicon as what we know them today around the same time, early nineteen hundreds. But I don't know if there's one or ⁓ that says actually with any certainty, I have the bragging right of being the first version of the American pastrami. So where does one get Texas style pastrami in Texas? You find it a lot of barbecue places. They do ⁓ they do make it. and I think ⁓ so at a barbecue place one of the things you might be pastrami. It's not quite as pr it's not quite as prevalent just up brisket or ribs or anything else normal to that experience. But you will find places that do it. And some of it may be from tradition and some of it may be just understanding that you can be creative with with meats and you can make a pastrami that, you know, has this kind of flavoring and seasoning that that is recognizable. it's, you In some instances it's kind of first culture, and some instances it's kind of third culture. It's people interacting with I mean, Houston, you can get really good Cajun barbecue, you can get Vietnamese barbecue, you can get great Korean barbecue, you can all these things that kind of interact with ⁓ the culture. So I don't know. Ha and have you eaten this pastrami? I've had pastrami. I've never I've had Texas barbecue pastrami, never really thinking of it as being something distinct until I realize that there's all this scholarship in the last ten or fifteen years of sort of saying, No, no, no, there actually is something. That was pretty widely spread ⁓ across Texas and not just Central Texas where you had a real meat culture that still exists today, but you had places like, you know, Galveston and Houston, and then you had northern Texas, you had wester Texas, that had these ⁓ on their menus a hundred years ago. It sounds similar just to the general story of how Texas style brisket like emerged as opposed to like the brisket preparations we have, you know, like in more you know, Eastern European Jewish communities in the Northeast. Right. Like it's like the pastrami is just one piece of that. But was there a Romanian community? Like do you think That's what I'm thinking. I'm like, somebody brought that rub. You know what I mean? The same like it's not it can't be disconnected. Yeah. I do think it is it does have those kinds of roots. sp the spices that you have ⁓ are reminiscent of it the times that I've had it. But I again I don't know if that's historical if that is ⁓ Someone who went to New and said, ⁓ we make a br version of the brisket here. ⁓ An important piece of this ⁓ though, is which one's better. I knew you were gonna go there. And so I don't I having not had a Texas style pastramia, I need to know a little bit more about the experience of eating it. Tell me about like how fatty it was, juicy, like how were you eating it? Was it on a ⁓ was there bread nearby? And slice. Yeah, yeah. A little bit about that, and then we need the verdict. ⁓ it's a different experience eating. Pastrami or anything, you know, with either a slice of white bread and some pickles, maybe, or just ⁓ into your mall. Yeah. The way that we do in Texas. The way that people who are here for the World Cup are doing like euphorically right now. They're like, I'm in Texas and I'm just stuffing meat into my face. That's all I'm supposed to do here. ⁓ great. there's no, there's no filler, there's no interruption, right? It's just like meat face. That experience versus ⁓ of it being, you know, first of all, brisket pastrami, dry rubbed ⁓ with no sauce, versus what you get in New York, which is a lot of ceremony, you know, how sliced, what whether it's lean or fatty, whether you put mustard on it or not, whether you serve it on a rye. Always mustard. Right. Yes, exactly. But some people always rye. Right. ⁓ Exactly. That changes the experience of it. And that's you know, that goes that goes into Montreal too, because they use they for their smoked meat, they have the brisket and you go to all the different places there that are fantastic. And hearing a lot of equivocating. I want to know Look, I this are two there are two. There's a Texas wolf and a New York wolf inside of me. And it's hard to it's hard to say one is better than I think they're different. ⁓ do like New York pastrami, I like the ceremony of it. I think that When I'm in Texas, I I wouldn't go for pastrami if I'm going for barbecue. And that's really what it comes down to for me. That makes sense. Two follow-ups here. One is sorry. One is if you go to the deli, is your pastrami your number one order? Or do you go corned beef or something else? I usually go pastrami. Okay. I just I that's what I'm there for usually. Second, what are you ⁓ for July 4th? what is your most meat preparation of choice? I always I always do burgers. It's just tried and true. controversially, I've served though on English muffins. I think it's better that way. Uh-huh. Hot tank. I also do ⁓ Frito as a as as someone with with Texas ⁓ roots, but I I often do a veggie chili for people who are vegetarians too, because I think that that gives you an opportunity to do something that feels decadent without it being your sad impossible burger or whatever the like alternative is. That's a little disappointing. So this this gives you a w a way to do it. So that's that's usually what I end up doing on the fourth of July. But I'd be curious to hear what everyone else's menus. Ooh, I haven't thought that far. TikTok. We are actually doing ⁓ queer soup night cookbook photo shoot over July 4th weekend because we were like, you know, when we can get like away with like just having a really low key weekend and people leave the city So we're actually doing a photo shoot that weekend. So I'll be making soup all weekend, but I did go to a great barbecue yesterday at my friend's house and we did the burgers, we did the dogs, we did salads and stuff and it was great. So I I like felt satisfied. You know, I felt like I had my like July fourth fair. I hope I have many more weekends like that. I'm just thinking if you go to a Fourth of July barbecue and there aren't hamburgers and hot dogs, there are are you upset? Are you leaving? Are you disappointed? Do you suspect something's wrong? Is If you have these things. I think people like to do the barbecue chicken. I feel like that's like a thing at a barbecue. Like someone wants the barbecue chicken. I don't know. What do people think? I mean, I'm just saying I I that's a version of the barbecue that people do. They marinate it. Yeah. I throw it on there. As a compliment. You want it too. You want it as well. Yeah. Yeah. I will say that I have been grilling a lot. I have a grill now. I have a grill since about a year ago and I have like I have like taken on the grill identity. And ⁓ I've been grilling like almost every night, like for three weeks. Peaches like what? barbecue. I've been grilling chicken, I've been grilling turkey burgers, I'm grilling fish, a lot of fish. Okay. Yeah, do a lot of fish, veggies, everything. I'm just going nuts. I'll say this. ⁓ I feel like I don't have a plan for July 4th, because I don't have a backyard. I don't have a grill. And so I g you know, and like if you try to go to the park and prospect farm. ⁓ no, you're not gonna One of the complications of n of of city living for me, I don't have a backyard like Liz. I don't have a barbecue so I actually I I have some anxiety around like I don't know where to be cooking. You know you gotta do, Jeffrey? You gotta go to the beach, then on the way back from the beach, you gotta stop at the middle base of kosher deliberately you gotta get your hot dog in Kanish. That is what you're gonna do. I can I'm just waiting for the photo on July 4th of you doing that. That is totally what you're gonna do. That's so nice. But as someone who doesn't have Fourth of July cookout agency, if you were invited to a Fourth of July cookout and There were no hot dogs or hamburgers there. Are you are you disappointed? I'll be honest. ⁓ you taking back the thing that you bought for everyone to drink ⁓ putting it in your bag? The the hamburger, I'm okay with it. Hot dogs are more a celebration of American identity for me than hamburgers. So I I feel like having a hot dog and no hamburger, I'd be okay. Having a hamburger and no hot dog, I'd be disappointed. ⁓ interesting. All right. Interesting. So hierarchy is set. Okay. Very nice. Very nice. I think you have to have both, but that's nice. I well, we know where you are. I'm demanding. Yeah, that's right. Okay. I think it's time for our last question. Last question. Okay, right. We forgot. We forgot. Okay. Okay. Great question from Jeff in Boston. What do you think about deli sandwiches named after celebrities? Larry David deliciously parodied the concept in an early Curb Your Enthusiasm episode. Shout out Curb Your Enthusiasm. But seriously, is it still a thing? And if it is, will it last or will it die out eventually? Celebrity sandwiches. Let's go. what do you say to Jeff? ⁓ well, Jeff, I appreciate this question. I appreciate any question that's a reference to a Larry David project of some kind. I'm actually looking forward to ⁓ haven't yet watched the new Larry David, but ⁓ there's a Him and Obama teamed up. There's a whole American history show on HBO. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ my god. You gotta keep up with all this. I'm not sure. And this I love this episode, by the way. Where Larry David did you have you seen this episode? I've seen this episode. I saw it many, many years ago. So it's not fresh in mind. I've seen it many times. So basically I'll maybe recap real quick. It's a great thought, Adam. Yeah. Okay. ⁓ quick recap. ⁓ Larry David finally gets a sandwich at his favorite deli. Finally gets a sandwich, okay? But He gets a sandwich, it's like sable, whitefish, capers, some red onions. it's just like He doesn't want that sandwich. He's like Sable's good, but I get ⁓ He doesn't want the sandwich. He wants his type dancing. He's got like the dancing. I thought it was the Richard Lewis. Okay, right, right. Yeah. Turkey, colesla, ⁓ you know, ⁓ I I Swiss cheese, maybe I don't remember. It's been a while since I've seen it. You can't get Ted Dancing's sandwich. He wants a sexier sandwich. And Ted Danson never goes to the deli. He's always in there with Richard Lewis, with his dad. He's always eating. He's like, I want to eat this sandwich. He goes to Ted Dance and he's like, Ted, come on, can we eat? Like, listen, you never go there. Can we? Can we just switch sandwiches? And Ted's like, you know what? Sure. Of course. You know what? You go there. Of course. Just tell me what the sandwich is. So people I know when they say the Ted Dancing. And Larry describes it. He's like, well, there's Sable. Ted Danton's like there's there's two types of ⁓ Like two fish. He's like and then and then like Jeff, his manager is like escapers. Red And it's just like and then Ted's like, guys. He takes it back. Wow. And it sounds awful. I can't do that. ⁓ my god. Larry just. ⁓ And he gets stuck with the Sam and then he ends up pissing off the owner. It's a whole thing. A great episode, but all that's to say is like I I kind of love that aspiring to a place ⁓ right. The menu of the pl like of a of a place where you eat and where you go regularly in a tradition and a cuisine of your heritage to be honored in that way. It's a beautiful thing. So I I love the essence of like what that is. but the reality is I I I still see this at like some more old school places. I don't see this at more at newer places. Although some new places have like fun names, but they're not necessarily just like This celebrity sandwich. It's like a concept, or maybe it's like a Madonna, but it's not really the Madonna sandwich. Right. ⁓ and so I I haven't been seeing it as much. I don't know if I'm missing it or craving it. ⁓ maybe there's some nostalgia to like to some of these old things. I you know, I don't aspire to have a sandwich named after me. I it's not something I aspire to. and I but if it ⁓ I mean, yeah, of course. If it happens. Okay, yeah. ⁓ so I I I don't know if it's ⁓ I I do think it is somewhat disappearing, but I also think a lot of these retro things are coming back. And so I can very much start to see this trend re-emerge. Yeah. But I'm curious if you are all seeing this or you're seeing it kind of continue or die out a little bit. I haven't paid a lot of attention to ⁓ celebrity name sandwiches. What I do know is that. If you are gonna have a celebrity name sandwich, you better have a picture of the owner with the person on the wall somewhere, in that building. Because if it's just named, you know, for Madonna or, you know, ⁓ completely strange for no good reason. Like I like the Brunsons that that that have been popping up. There's a, you know, that for Jalen Brunson, everyone found out what his bodega order is, and everyone has been honoring him around New York by making the the Brunson, which sounds delicious. But Which which is just a bacon, egg, and cheese, right? It is they're potatoes. There's a hash brown in it and some Chipotle mayo. on a roll? On roll. Kaiser. A Kaiser roll. On a Kaiser roll. On a Kaiser roll. but what I think is important, I mean, this is like you're about to go play some basketball, so actually no, it's on a bag it's on a I think it might be on a bagel. It's on a bagel. It's on a bagel. I was wrong. So Dylan Bronson, but Yeah. That's a crazy thing. I if it's a crazy thing. That's what the soft lender's type bagel. No, no, it's a New York bagel. But then again, he's gonna go like play three hours of basketball after that. So, you know. Right. Anyway, but I do think that that's that's a nice a nice way to honor somebody and to have something that people get excited about. However, gotta have some kind of some of tangible connection it somehow. If you're just gonna name it after a celebrity and they've never been in and they never come by, I think it's I think it's silly here. I think it's Clout chasing nonsense, if I may. I I it's a strong take, I agree. I I do love the Brunson sandwiches though, and I and I but I like that it's it's a knowing it's like it's actually his order. It's not it it's not like it named after him as much as it's like I want the Brunson order. And I kind of like that. And I like the idea of, you know, ⁓ like I I kind of like if you go to a bagel shop and you order the Cynthia Nixon, and you got like the raisin bagel the locks and ⁓ and cream cheese and all that. Like it'd be interesting if you actually take people's orders less that you're getting them. You're getting a piece of like their identity. And ⁓ I kind of like that. I like, ⁓ yeah, I want to be like Brunson. I want to like what Brunson does before game day. I'm about to play the game. Yeah. Give me the Brunson order. I kind of want it to shift a little bit. As opposed to like the Brunson. Give me the Brunson. I see what you're saying. Yeah, okay. Mom Donnie have a sandwich, doesn't he put he put jalapenos on his egg and cheese? I think that's what it is. It's not bacon, but it obviously, but he does definitely do I think it's jalapenos. And I I heard that there was an uptick in jalapenos, but don't think anyone was calling it the Mom Donnie. Just saying it's stock tip, buy some stock and ⁓ some jalapenos. Canned jalapenos with the bodega. ⁓ okay, one thing I wanted to shout out is that at Russ and Daughters, incredible institution, New York institution, fourth generation owners, Lower East Side New York, multiple locations at this point, friends of HEB, have a sandwich called the HEPster. Sure. and it is named after the original Iteration of Hebe, which we are now in its in its renaissance. but I do love that, and that's like, you know, it's fairly contemporary, it's in the last 20 years that that sandwich got a name. But ⁓ feel like what I see are things more like that. So I see less things named after a celebrity and more things with like ⁓ cute, playful name that is like referential in some way. ⁓ I love cocktails and I feel like whenever I'm ordering a cocktail at a place, and particularly delis have cocktails are like cool, trendy-ish restaurants that have cocktails, there's always like names. You know, and you're like you're like, I'll take the dosy dough, and then you're like, ⁓ I feel so dumb saying that. But it's like it has some reason that it's called that. So I feel like the the 2026 version of the celebrity name is like a weird pun cocktail name. You what I I I I agree. I I've been seeing more names. ⁓ Do you have you ever been to Cafe Gratitude on the West Coast? I have it's a famous place. I don't think I've actually ever been there. Do you know about it, Adam? No. So there you have to this has now like been around for a long time, but the menu you have to order and and the name of the sandwich is not just blessed, it's ⁓ am blessed. And so when you order, you actually have to say state ⁓ am blessed or I am divine. And it's kind of like a cool way of like weaving in like these affirmations and ordering. ⁓ but I can't believe it's on the West Coast. That's really Area started and then there's one in LA too. So okay. ⁓ but I do like I like creative sandwich naming, let's just say. And ⁓ to res back to LA, I gotta appreciate like you know, a place like Langers, which like owns like like the numbered sandwiches, and everyone goes in there and they know what the number 19 ⁓ They want the number, yeah. But that's something nice about that. Authoritative, you know, like I like a number too, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. For next time we all meet. I want us all to think what would be our sandwich. ⁓ gosh. You know what I mean? Just think about it I can't it was too much to put you all on the spot for that right now. I w I wasn't ready. Right. But I want you to think about it. Next time we all sit down, have a coffee, have a drink, let's talk about it. That sounds great. Okay. All right, cool. Thank Adam. This was a lot of fun. These were great questions. Yeah, really good questions. Make it easy for me. we just to remind people to send us your questions, DM us, fill out the form in the show notes. ⁓ link in bio on our Instagram, Gefilteria Instagram, or Heb Instagram. We love your questions. These are amazing questions. and we're answering them. We're trying to group them together in ways so that our amazing experts can help us out. So especially when there's question about, you know, Texas style pastrammy, like ⁓ it's not our area of expertise, but we knew who to call. Yeah. Thanks, Adam. Thank you. This is so fun. So fun. Okay, so Liz, we are at that point. It's that time. It's the Kvetch Kvell share portion of our proceedings. We're sliding into the vinyl seats at the deli so each of us gets the chance to quell or kvetch about a food we've been thinking about, something that's on our mind, or maybe we brought something that reminded us of the other. so with that, I mean Liz, I did it. You want me to go? Okay, so I ⁓ have two quells. So uncharacteristic. So I will say first, mine's kind of a quell slash ketch So's mine, so I got you. So ⁓ two well, one bakery, one of my favorite bakeries in New Jersey, in Morristown, New Jersey, the artist baker, after eighteen years. Love that place. Yeah. After eighteen years, they're closing. the Kel. The Kvel is Andrea Lechberg, who owns it, is like the nicest, most amazing, like owner. She actually ran for mayor last year, but everyone loves her in the community of Morristown, New Jersey. And honestly, having a place for 18 years is such an accomplishment. And so and you know some of it was the the the the it was time to renew the lease, these kind of questions that many restaurants have when they come to this point. Yeah. And ⁓ she decided to to to make the decision to close. But Andrea is someone I've respected for so many years. I got to know her because she my mother's office in Morristown New Jersey was right across the street. And and she's like done stuff for James Beard. She's been ⁓ a pastry chef at really f high-end restaurants in in Morrisown and beyond. She has indigenous heritage and she's really explored that through food. And I've just like come to respect her. We've talked about her, but you met her. Yeah. But she's just like one of those people in the food world that I respect. And one of the cool things about this bakery was that she had a ⁓ at one point she like said, Hey, I'm gonna close off a part of it and open and welcome a bike mechanic to like work on bikes in it. And it brought such a cool energy. And then she was did a florist and she kept on like finding out ways to like use a cafe as a springboard for so much more. And so it was more of just like I wanted to like celebrate like a wonderful bakery like that. And also just like a a an entrepreneur, a business leader. That's what it sounds like to me. Like a com a foundational community member who's like flexible and thoughtful about the way that she was able to develop her business. Yeah. I love that. Totally. So one of the one of the shout out ⁓ also unrelated, I have a plant in my bathroom. a night as you do. Yeah. ⁓ it's a night blooming serious. It's like it's this plant. It's kind of this jungle plant that only once a year does it ⁓ do these buds ⁓ come forth and then does it blossom into this incredible flower ⁓ overnight for one single night. And have had this plant for now seven, eight years. And I've only experienced this once. it was ⁓ I I the you don't always know when it's gonna happen. I got home and I missed the beginning of its opening and I like stood and watched this thing for hours. It was unbelievable. And what color is it? Like what does it look like? I mean, so it it's like a it's a green plant. It's kind of this jungle plant, and then it has and then has these like little like a tendril that kind of falls down, but then it turns then like Then it has just like these colors, green and orange, but then it kind of turns pink and white, which kind of tells you it's ready to open and then opens and it's just like gorgeous white. It's likely gonna happen tonight. And it opens then you it's ⁓ when it's full, and then it closes all in the same night, and then it and then kind of dries out ⁓ then and then eventually falls off. And I have some I had ⁓ last year I had four of these buds that dropped and all of them didn't make it. None of them none of them made it into a thing. So I have one. And I'm hoping that it's gonna happen. Tonight. or tomorrow. So I am on pins and needles here, hoping we're gonna get it. It is on it ⁓ is one of those experiences. It's it's this one small house plant, but it like really made me connect like something f so much deeper. I cannot wait for this. I hope it happens. Jeffrey, first of all, it's super beautiful. I've never really heard you talk about plants before. So it's so nice to hear you talk about that in all these years. I don't think we've had like a plant thing. I also want to say this is maybe the most like millennial in your forties thing that you could possibly have shared with me. You know, have you been getting those memes where they're like, You're a millennial who's in your forties, like an old millennial, like what are you doing? Like quit drinking, run a marathon, like have a third accidental kid, like or like get into gardening, you know, or like plants, like it's like that's one of the things, which I love because it what it tells me is like you're like, I'm slowing down, I'm noticing, I'm paying attention to beauty, I'm like, I'm like I care about the like world around me. I love it. Well, and I should tell you related to that next week, and I am going on a birding walk with some ⁓ some. He's birding everybody. I I I I mean, you know I've been birding. I I'm ready to go. Let's bird. Yeah. You know? Okay, that's what I got. Thank you so much for joining us for Meet Me at the Deli. Please follow us ⁓ Instagram, Gafilteria or Heb Media. ⁓ DM us with your questions. We would love to give you our advice. Maybe you'll find it interesting. you can also email us podcast at gefilteria.com or fill in the form in these show notes. It's so easy to submit a question. ⁓ we know you have them. And it doesn't have to just be about a recipe or a food. It could be about etiquette, it could be about culture, anything that's on your mind. send send us your way. This show was produced by Felicia Reich, who we are so grateful brought us seltzers today. Thank you to He Media, an independent media nonprofit producing original web series, podcasts, and live events that showcase the best of today's subversive Jewish culture. 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