Latest / Ridiculous History / The Ridiculous History of the 90s and Low Culture, with Ross Benes

Transcript

The Ridiculous History of the 90s and Low Culture, with Ross Benes · Ridiculous History

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear if our super producer,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: mister Max nineteen nineties Williams.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Max, he loves the nineties, Williams. We all love it.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: We lived the nineties. Yeah, mixed feelings about the nineties now.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know, mainly good, mainly positive.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: I'm still processing it. It's true, still too soon, still
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: take time. I beg, bullet, you're Noel Brown, and we
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: have we have long been mystified by the nineteen nineties
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: because it's something that is surprisingly long ago, but I
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: think still very present in culture today, like in cultural memory.
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: It left a mark, no question, it.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Left a mark. It left some jinkos, it left there.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: But they're expensive.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: They were expensive then. I mean, we can always round
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: the inflation calculator. But they were always a bit of
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: a luxury good. But yeah, the big floppy pants with
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: like built in chains and rings and stuff are like
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: hugely back with the Gen Z and Gen Alpha kids.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because they share that same cultural fascination with the
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: ridiculous history of.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: The nineteen nineties.
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: It's it's sort of the way I think maybe we
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: feel about the sixties or the seventies, where we're like
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: nostalgic for an era that we never lived through. And
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: that is, you know, with the Internet and with all
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: the information out there and the ability to deep dive
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: into all this stuff and the algorithms of music, et cetera,
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: it's like you can feel like you were there in
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: a way, and there is this built in nostalgia for
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: a time that these kids.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: Had no participation in.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: And that is an excellent setup for today's episode. We
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: are exploring the nineteen nineties, especially what people call low culture,
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: and we're not doing this alone, Noel, we have a
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: returning guest, the legendary author and journalist and researcher Ross Benish.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: You have heard him on our earlier episode, Ridiculous History
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: of Sex.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: Man so bun that I miss that I still don't
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: know anything about sex. I don't even know how it works.
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: That would have been mega educational for her. It's pretty ridiculous.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: You've You've read Ross's work in Entertainment weekly Esquire, You've
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: read him in Mental Floss, a personal favorite of Hours.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Pretty much any magazine or publication you can imagine. Ross
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: is also the author of nineteen ninety nine, The Year
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Low Culture Conquered America and kick started our bizarre times. Ross,
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: welcome back to the show Man. Thanks for the second date.
• 3:06
  Speaker 4: Hey, it's good to be back. And uh, I wish
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: I was wearing Jinkos for this one. You guys got
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: me thinking about how much denim are in those pants.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: I owned a Jinko, just one, just one Jinko, just
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: a single Jinko, and it was not even particularly floppy.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: It was just like a gene really with a slightly
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: wide leg.
• 3:25
  Speaker 4: With the tariffs though, in the amount of denim, I
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: could see the price rising.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, nostalgia tacks.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a college.
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The uh it's funny that we're mentioning owning one
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: pair of Jinkos or one Jinko, because I think for
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: a lot of children in the nineties that was a
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: that was a heady and heavy negotiation with the parentals.
• 3:46
  Speaker 3: You know what a creational Jinkos man it still is. Yeah.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Uh, and Ross, we had such a We had such
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: a great time with you and our fellow ridiculous historians
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: getting into a very PG thirteen episode about sex history,
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: and you came to us and said, guys, what do
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: you think about the nineties, And we immediately again went
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: down the rabbit hole of nostalgia. We want to talk
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: about so much stuff.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: Nineties was all about sex, y'all.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Maybe we started this way.
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: Ross.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: In your latest book, which was published just earlier this year,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: you specifically call out the year nineteen ninety nine. Could
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: you tell us why and how you landed on that
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: date in particular?
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: Well, ninety nine is just sillier and more ridiculous than
• 4:39
  Speaker 4: the years around it, And part of that's because of
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: like Y two k P paranoia and all the silly
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: stunts that were done around the turn of the century.
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: But I feel like that era in general has been
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: really influential, Like the pop culture that was there has
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: influenced our society in a lot of strange ways that
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: we're going to dive into. But like, if you want
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: to write about something being over the top, ninety nine
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: is certainly more over the top than ninety eight or
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: oh one is.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: It was the year of limp biscuit, it was the
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: year of voice Shock. Ninety nine. I mean, how much
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: more ridiculous than that does it gree now?
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: This song about it?
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: Dude? Right? He was looking ahead for sure.
• 5:16
  Speaker 4: So about the Prince song when it was New Year's
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: Day in nineteen ninety nine, like nineteen ninety eight, going
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: to nineteen ninety nine, MTV had Limp Biscuit playing that
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: song at midnight, you know, and they're not gonna have prints.
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: But like what's the sign of the times for nineteen
• 5:33
  Speaker 4: ninety nine, it's New Metal Baby.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Which is also back in a big way for better
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: or worse, largely worse. And I'm not quite sure if
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: people really like it or like it ironically. It's it's unclear.
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: It doesn't matter as long as they're getting attention at
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: the spot.
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: You know what.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: And I say, whether or not you like something ironically,
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: at the end of the day, you'll just like it.
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: And something ironic eventually just becomes a thing that you dig,
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: you know, like you and Hobo Johnson a million for nine.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: I never liked him ironically. I disliked him very genuinely.
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: I liked the insane clown posse, and I know a
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: lot of people who follow them have an ironic appreciation.
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: But like when I know, like you know all the
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: words to the songs on the entire Great Malinco album.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: I know, yeah, I guys went to oz Fest ninety nine.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: I was there, Like, I mean, that's like that. They
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: should have written that into business.
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: Sounds come out of a thirteen foot tall toilet at
• 6:34
  Speaker 4: that one.
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: I was aft.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: That was later because this they didn't play. Yeah, it
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: was I think it was a Black Sabbath headlines. I
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: remember like Slayer played I'm trying like Slipknot. That was
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: before they were big and I saw them they were
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: on the small stage. But boy, if you look at
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: a pictures of kids at those shows in those days,
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: what an incredible time capsule for this stuff we're talking about.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And part of what we're dancing around here
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: is a call concept that you introduced this to off
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: air Ross, which is the idea of low culture. Could
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: you tell us a little bit about what what we
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: mean by low culture and what makes it ridiculous history.
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: So it's mostly just trashy entertainment, but the way like
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: I see it as it's the pop culture that is
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: the most mocked and ridiculed of its era. So like
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: when Biscuit, you know, would be on there, like Jerry
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: Springer was rated as having the worst show of all
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: time on TV Guide, so many people were trying to
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: cancel that show. Yeah, totally, the viewership was was through
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: the roof.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: But like so much for Fraternity Test.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: For the Praternity Test, okay, Springer was about the chair
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: combat though, right, maybe that was.
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: And the like you know, weird sexual triangles with family
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: members and the eccentric characters adults and diapers.
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like k KK guy, not to get too into
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: it already, but like he was really just a product
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: of a lot of the daytime stuff that came before him,
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: like the Sally Jesse, Raphael's and Phil Dona Hughes of
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: the world. He just sort of elevated it to dare
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: I say, kind of like a perfectly packaged art form.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: You know, yeah, let's get let's get into it. Yeah,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: daytime talk shows very much a genre of their time
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: and definitely fits your definition of low culture. Ross were
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: without dating, without putting you on the spot or dating
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: you too hard? Were you watching those?
• 8:35
  Speaker 5: I was?
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: But I was way too young from you know, the
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: suggested age. But so I was nine years old in
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: nineteen ninety nine, well actually ten for most of so
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: I was ten years old, and I've watched Jerry Springer
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: with my parents at night with Yeah, with my parents,
• 8:50
  Speaker 4: we thought it was funny as hell. You know, my
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: parents were old when they had me. My siblings are
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: you know, a lot older, and they had just given up.
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: So like, we're gonna, you know, nine thirty, Jerry Springer
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: comes on Fox forty two.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: Uh, you know, we're gonna what part of the country.
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: Isn't the rule Nebraska cool.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: To the flavor of the story.
• 9:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we just had fun with it. Like it was
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: just like, you know, like we didn't take it seriously.
• 9:19
  Speaker 4: We're just laughing our ass off the whole time.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Now, this is interesting because Springer especially has a bit
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: of a narrative tie in with the format of wrestling
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: right in that it very much purports to be true,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: and everybody kind of has a k fab nod and
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: wink about whether or not this is indeed reality. When
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: you were a kid watching these shows with your parents,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: did you think these were real people?
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: I doubted they were real people. I actually believe more
• 9:55
  Speaker 4: in them being real people now than I did as
• 9:57
  Speaker 4: a kid.
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: Like that's what That's what I'm saying. They weren't they
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: were real people though, right, it was just like jujh.
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: I think for most of them, you know, I'm sure,
• 10:04
  Speaker 4: like you know, they they had thousands of episodes of
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: all these shows like Sally Jerry Ricky, they all had
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: thousands of episodes. So I'm sure there are plants, like
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: you know, staged almost actors. Yeah, I'm sure that actors.
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Yeahs or like how court shows will have uh frankly
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: comedians and working actors come on as characters with a face.
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: They got to fill some airtime. Yeah, but there are
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: some genuine people in there, and you know that because
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: there are court cases that happen with some of these
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: guests that like the stuff that's involved in the case
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: is from their real life what they discussed on the show.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: So they and people who got book deals, you know,
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: because maybe there was like I mean, this is almost
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: like mimetic content. Before that was a thing where you
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: would have these characters that would just penetrate the zeitguys
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: in that same before there really were like image macro memes.
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like I think of cash me outside a Million
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: and now she's a big rapper, bad baby. Yeah. That
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: that was a little bit later than early two thousands,
• 11:10
  Speaker 4: but same concept. Mm hmm.
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah. This is also, uh, this is funny because since
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: it's before podcasting, in a way, daytime talk shows were
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: like unhinged podcast.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: They were long form, They were a single kind of
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: or maybe just segmented narrative structure.
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: They weren't SoundBite based.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: The idea was that you were witnessing a thing happening
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: in real time that was supposedly you know, quote unquote authentic.
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The producers were the the hidden hand, right, They
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: were the ones who were off to the left of
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: cameras and saying, okay, chant this, chant this.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Well to that point, though, Russ, would you argue perhaps
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: that these daytime shows were like a precursor to reality TV,
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: because there's.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: Certainly that same So what's the word I'm looking for?
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: Cadre of producers sort of manipulating things from behind the scenes,
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: but it just gets way more overt and don't give
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: a f about like maintaining any semblance of true reality
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: when we start seeing reality TV where everything's episodic and
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: edit it.
• 12:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, so they're very similar in a few ways.
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: You know. One of them is that they're they're ways
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: cheaper than scripted content to produce. So like the reason
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: why things like talk shows were sought after, or why
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: so many TV networks made reality shows in the late
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: nineties and or two thousands is because they were low
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: Like they were low grade production costs, like just bare bones.
• 12:37
  Speaker 4: You're filming people reacting to engineered situations, and the way
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: you would create a character like those, like whether it's
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: Jerry or Morey, they're playing like almost fictionalized versions of
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: themselves and they're aware of it. You see that same
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: thing when reality TV starts to mature, like someone goes
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: on the Real World season five, they know like what
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: the you know, stock type of characters are and how
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: they can play up to it to get more camera time.
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: So I think you know, when you if you watch
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: the Real Housewives and you see like the fights that
• 13:07
  Speaker 4: they have, you know, a lot of that is really
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: copied from the Jerry Springer playbook.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: I actually a long time ago with a buddy friend
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: of the show, Paul Decant.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: I think this is before he was working with us Ben.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: He had a buddy who made these like sizzle kind
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: of pilots or trying to sell reality concepts, and I
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: worked on one as like a sound guy holding the boom,
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: and it was I mean that the name is just
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: the most tone deaf thing ever. It was about these
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: like wealthy white ladies living out in Buckhead, which is
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: like a bougie part of Atlanta, and it was called
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: they had a fashion line in their basement and the show,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: I shit you not was called the Underground Runway.
• 13:45
  Speaker 5: Oh my god, well not everything's going to be a winner, right,
• 13:50
  Speaker 5: And they had a fiery Eastern European woman who they manufactured,
• 13:55
  Speaker 5: like getting a sex.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Toy sent in the mail to the house from an
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: admirer and opening it and everyone was a gast and
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: just like totally this trash you know, all that it
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: was absolutely made up. And the way they coach those confessionals,
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: it's pure fiction.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: They are line reading. It is wild.
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: I've been on some pilots or sizzle things like you're
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: describing their null for a couple of shows we've done
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: in the past, and encountered the producer Sweetening firsthand. And
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: it isn't art. I would say it is a sith art.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: It is a dark art, but an art nonetheless and
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: frank and biting, is it?
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah?
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you want to define that for anybody who doesn't know.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: It's just cut up, like you know, use piecing together
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: lines where you cut away so you don't see the
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: person's mouth moving, and you can basically just combine different
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: takes or different things to make a sentence so that
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: suits your narrative.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you have you have raw audio of someone saying, actually,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: I like green tea, and then you have another clip
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: of them say, you know, I hate the Welsh, and
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: then you or something it would be more likely to
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: manufacture that I hate the Well, you know, you would
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: say I I love green tea, but I hate coffee,
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: and you would frank in bite that like you're saying
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: nol by splicing in things, so it sounds like I
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: love the British, but I hate the Welsh.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: Boom game on, let's listen, get into a soccer hooligan
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: throw down. Yeah, I mean, can you talk a little
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: bit more about that, because I mean, I guess for
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: you the daytime trash TV is sort of a bridge into.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: The absolute takeover of reality TV.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: After I guess we're talking about Ozzy again, shows like
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: The Osbourne's.
• 15:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah So well, in the late nineties you start to
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: see a lot more reality TV on broadcast TV, like
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: you have Big Brother Survivors in two thousand. You know,
• 16:04
  Speaker 4: you have the reality game shows like Who Wants to
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: Be a Millionaire? Uh, those a lot of those happen
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: because there's a deregulation of the financial syndication interest rules
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: that allow TV networks to produce their own primetime series.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: They don't. They no longer have to go and syndicate
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: them from elsewhere, and so that totally changes the incentive.
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: So I'm just sorry, I don't know about this at all.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Can you explain a little more about that law change.
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: Yes, So, from the seventies until the mid nineties, there
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: were these laws that prevented broadcast TV networks from owning
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: most of their primetime programming. They couldn't produce it themselves.
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: There was an anti monopoly law, so they would have
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: to go out and get their content from elsewhere. Once
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: they could produce it themselves, they wanted to make it
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: as cheaply as possible, and they just followed the same
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: playbook that the daytime shows already were doing, because the
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: daytime shows were all by syndicators. Yeah, Jerry Springer wasn't
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: on one TV network and dependent on where you live,
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: what Jerry Springer would be on, Like it could.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: Be on as Fox thirteen, et cetera.
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: If you lived in you know, like the West Coast,
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: it could be CBS. If you lived in this sound,
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: that could be NBC. You might even have it on
• 17:14
  Speaker 4: two or three stations, just depending on what, like who
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: wants to license it. So you know, in the nineties
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: that deregulation, other deregulations happened that basically encourage these huge
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: media corporations to produce content as cheaply as possible, to
• 17:32
  Speaker 4: reach as many people as possible, to just go like
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: shallow and broad, and that encourages a reality TV boom,
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: and then later you get another boom because the writers
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: strike in two thousand and seven.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah, And that's a that's a great tie in
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: where we're where we're on the nineties. And we have
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: to admit for anybody who even if you hate daytime
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: talk TV, that genre and that.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: I proved what was successful though, like what exactly what's
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: sort of thele of the conversation is successful?
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: Right right? Few people, few studios have ever lost money
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: pandering to the lowest common denominator, you know what I mean? Unfortunately,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: that is part of what these genres proved, and they
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: also they also, as you point out, they also made
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: this tremendous cultural impact way beyond media. Right, we always
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: know that in the nineteen nineties and early two thousands,
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: a cultural hallmark was being big enough to be mentioned
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: on The Simpsons, Right, that's when you knew you made
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: it in media. Can you tell us a little bit
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: more about how daytime talk shows as a genre, how
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: they impacted the culture beyond just the world of television.
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: Well, you would see them like all over the place.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: I'll just use Jerry Springer as an example. He would
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: be making cameos in like every movie at a time,
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: like the Austin Power sequel Spy Shagmy. The first scene
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: is Jerry Springer, like doctor Evil's on Jerry Springer and
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: he then he beats up like some KKK guys And.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Then this isn't that when it's there's like a pattern,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: like his son comes out and then they get into
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: a fight and stuff, and he's all, like.
• 19:17
  Speaker 4: Anymore really ridiculous than an actual Jerry Springer.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: Absolutely, it was just really.
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: Something you would see on their show. But you know
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: they would be mentioned on teaching Miss Tingle like every
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: like so many movies from the late nineties early two
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: thousands mentioned them. Jerry Springer had a spring Break tour
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: Springer Break. He had merchandise all over the place. He
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: had a movie made about him. There was a book
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: that had the same name as the movie. He thought
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: about running for Congress, but he didn't because he they
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: said that he had too much baggage, which is hilarious.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: Didn't he have a background in politics?
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: He did. He was Cincinnati mayor and city councilman. We
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: can get into that as well. But you know, Springer
• 19:57
  Speaker 4: was just really he had a mail ordered vhs too
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: out for TV that like set Records, Oh.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Gosh, yes, do I remember that, of course, And it
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: was it came out around the same time as those
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: other really trashy like Girls of spring Break, Girl's Gone Wild,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Thank You, Yeah.
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: Got Wild tot for TV.
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: You definitely was in that same genre.
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: Yes, you're up after eleven o'clock watching cable. You would
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: see an infomercial for.
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: All the phone number get it. You know, I knew
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: some I knew some.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: People like, oh my gosh, yeah, you mentioned the exact
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: time of the commercial. Were you at my house.
• 20:30
  Speaker 3: It was just it was all of us, man, we
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: were there.
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: These were franchises. They weren't just like on TV shows.
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: They were almost like intellectual property that would branch out
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: into its own universe. And then you know, I think
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: you would eventually see that style of I don't even
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: call it conversation. It's more like combat or just you know,
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: being ridiculous. It makes its way into other forms of television,
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: other movies, and then it's eventually seeps into politics when reality.
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: Read in circuses.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: Man. I mean, it's totally like gladiator backt and that's
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: the lowest form of entertainment, you know, in ancient Rome
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: for example. But the funny thing is, you know who
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: else likes gladiator battles, rich people, smart people.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: It's not It doesn't mean you're dumb. If you like
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: trash TV.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: A lot of people genuinely dig it and they have PhDs.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: That's what broad means. It means it reaches like everybody.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a universal appeal because it appeals to things
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: that people love seeing, which is messy trouble at a
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: distance experienced vicariously.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: It makes you feel a little bit better about you,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: how well you've got your stuff together.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I know who my kid is, so that
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: that kind of thing. I think it really speaks to
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: what you're describing as a shock and awe approach to
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: the zeitgeist. Right, it doesn't have to be great. It
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: just needs to be ubiquitous. It just needs to be everywhere.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: And we'd love to go back to the point you
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: noted about interaction with politics, because I would because I
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: read it there, guys, I would posit we are.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: In peak that thing. This is the culmination only.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Because I would posit only because I read Ross's book
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: that this is where we start to see a big, weird,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: muddy vin diagram of celebrities and politicians becoming increasingly similar.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: You know, nineteen nineties was a heyday for current US
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: President Donald Trump as a media figure.
• 22:27
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: We had Jesse the body Ventura as well. We started
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: yeah please.
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Jesse Ventura became governor in ninety nine. Trump actually
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: announced his first presidential run in nineteen ninety nine on
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: the Larry King Show. A talk show. Wasn't daytime talk,
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: but you know, it gives you a sense of what
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: that format was like. So he felt that was a
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: good time.
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: To just a lot high not high journalism, Larry King.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's that is entertainment journalism. No shade on
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Larry King, but the way that show was positioned, and
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: it was a meme kind of clip generating show that
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: was all about like entertainment, I think.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I don't want to I'm very against body shaming,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: but Larry King looked kind of weird, right.
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: Odd neck. That's just maybe.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: It's the head proportions.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: Anyway, I like Larry B. King from the B movie.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: Jeez, I forgot about that. You're killing it with the references?
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: Was that nineteen ninety nine too, Now that was two
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: thousand I don't know, it was way after Seinfeld ended,
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: probably two thousand seven.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: And just putting a pin in this, I do want
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: to get into some movies from nineteen ninety Oh yeah,
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: well we must. I think I've got a good one
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: that'll be a bridge from this topic. But yeah, please,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: let's do talk about that political intersection.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Is it true that originally in the first run
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: for I believe the Reform Party in nineteen ninety nine,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: is it true that Donald Trump approached Oprah Winfrey about
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: being his possible VP.
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: Well, he don't know if he really approached her personally,
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: but he said he wanted her to be the VP.
• 24:05
  Speaker 4: Like I don't know how far that went, but he
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: is on record saying like he that was his dream VP.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, so talk about low culture. Instead of approaching the
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: person directly, you just go on interviews talk about Oprah.
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: Maybe Yeah, I didn't find any evidence that Oprah ever
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: seriously entertained it.
• 24:26
  Speaker 5: Yes, she was like delete this message.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: So I love the setup we got here, going into
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: the halcyon nineteen nineties movies. You also note that a
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: couple of social critics called nineteen ninety nine the.
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: Best movie year ever?
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Why is that?
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: And is that ironic?
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: So, you know, just the recap of nineteen ninety nine.
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: So for those who haven't watched those movies for a while,
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: you have you know, sixth Sense, Yeah, Fight Club, like
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: you have.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Virgin Suicides, Magnolia, Talented, mister Ripley, like it just.
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: Goes on on Green Mile, Iron Giant, like so many
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: great moves.
• 25:23
  Speaker 3: Holland Drive.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, just to name a favorite and rip David
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: Lynch if I may really quickly, I just want to
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: drop one on you, just as a transition from the
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: reality show stuff and the way it just kind of
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: permeated the culture to film.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: The Blair Witch Project.
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, definitely.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: I mean because.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Obviously that was the first and probably most iconic. I'm
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: sure there are other examples of a truly handheld, meant
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: to be found footage slash documentary style thing that people,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: myself included, genuinely believe might be real.
• 25:53
  Speaker 4: I mean, they made those may made it seem like
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: those kids are actually murdered. They wouldn't let them appear
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: in public, and like the whole market campaign was so innovative.
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: But you know, what I've read on the ninety nine
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: movies is that it's a confluence of things in the
• 26:09
  Speaker 4: movie entertainment industry that happened right then that made that
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: production possible. Like you had the indie studios still had
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: free reign to do what they wanted to do, and
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: they had theatrical exposure and people were going to the
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: theaters to actually see movies that not just blockbusters. So
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: you had a lot of like I don't know what
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: you would call them, like mid budget movies that could
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: thrive in a way that they can't today. And then
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: you also had, you know, the huge studios making blockbusters
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: that were doing pretty well. You know, Toy Story too
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: did very well that year.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: And not to mention that studios big and small were
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: willing to take a lot more big swings because DVDs
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: were still a hell of profitable.
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you had other revenue streams. DVD's a hell a profitable.
• 26:55
  Speaker 4: It was also like syndication on TV was still very profitable.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: So like even if you could take a big swing,
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: do a risky movie, and like, well HBO and T
• 27:05
  Speaker 4: and T are gonna you know, air it and pay
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: a big licensing fee because they still get you know,
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: millions of viewers every night, not like they do tonight.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: So all of that is gone gone, Like truly, these
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: blu rays absolutely niche for like exclusively for the nerdiest
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: of collectors.
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: And like the licensing fees from streaming services are not
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: what they were.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: The right excutive Spotify rates as a just an example,
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: you know, it's not that low, but it's great.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: Even even streaming services now are encountering an issue. I
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: do want to take a stand for all the fellow
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: physical media nerds in the crowd. We gotta have it
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: if you can, you know, get it, get it on
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: the physical media because this era in the in the nineties,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: which is still very physical media driven. As we've established it,
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: it creates. It was still part of what we call
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: it ownership society. You bought a thing and then it
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: was yours instead of streaming, which is basically kind of
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: a micro license to yourself to watch something until the
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: big dogs say you can no longer.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: Even buying something on Amazon is is you're still just
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: streaming it off of their servers. And there is something
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: in the terms. I'm certain that you know caveats that.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: They can still a move it if you buy it
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: on Amazon. That's happened to people. They could still remove
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: the movie from the library.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: And I bet, I bet you can guess this bit
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: of trivia Ross. We talk about it on a couple
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: of different shows in the past. Do you know the
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: first book that was unceremoniously pulled from Amazon's Kindle service?
• 28:40
  Speaker 4: Oh man, no, I do not.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: It is nineteen eighty four by Jorge my Gosh. After
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: people paid for it. It was pulled in with great
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: you know, uh to do an opprobrium. Eventually Amazon put
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: it back.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: It was an accident, right, wasn't it? Some sort of
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: glitch that's what they.
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: Okay, that's pretty on the note though.
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: Sure is.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm fortunate at very least.
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: I just want to make one point about the physical
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: media though we talk about ninety nine. That's actually ninety
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: nine is part of the most pivotal year and transitioning
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: to digital consumption of media because Napster and Tvo both
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: come out that year.
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: Oh.
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: They revolutionize on demand viewing, revolutionized file sharing, you know,
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: like creating your own library rather than what is just
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: coming in at you from like a you know, a
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: big radio station or a big TV network.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and I think created some of the problems
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: that led to the lockdown of streaming and all of
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: the sort of like you know, applification of every network
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: because piracy, that's probably one of the most pivotal years
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: in piracy as well.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: You wouldn't download a car if I could. If I would,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: is this economy?
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: Are you kidding?
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: Yeah? I could be saving five hundred dollars a month
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: on that payment.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: And this brings us to another point we'd love to
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: explore with you, Russ. After research on this book and
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: all of the work you have done, how do you
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: think the future will regard the nineteen nineties, oh, man,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: just because you know, you're yeah, I don't want to
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: put you on the spot too much, but you're a
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: new father. You got to be thinking about the future.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Your kid is going to eventually look back at a
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: picture of you from the nineties. I go, Dad, Oh.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: My god, don't think about it too hard, man, And
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: I'm I.
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: Think the nineties for a while were assessed as like
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: peaceful prosperity times, like, you know, we had a surplus
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: in the economy, we were you know, the US was
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: involved in skirmishes certainly, but nothing to the degree of
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: the wars that they had before or after. I think, like,
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: if we're going to like do you know, revision as
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: history down the line, I think the nineties are actually
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: gonna be viewed as more contentious time because of the
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: birth of the Internet and the way it disrupted media
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: and all of the like, you know, we think of
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: the nineties peaceful, but when when I like go back
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: into this research, I mean, man, when the Internet's come
• 31:13
  Speaker 4: in there are some heavy, like fiery debates in Congress
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: about regulating it. I think people forget that, you know,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: Columbine happened, you know, in ninety nine, and there's a
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: big push to censor media. And you know, before that,
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: you know, you had all these other tragedies like Oklahoma City.
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: So you know, I think there's a dark undercurrent with
• 31:35
  Speaker 4: the nineties that's being more appreciated now than probably was
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: ten years ago. And I think, you know, if you
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: look back twenty years from now, the nineties, will you know,
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: really look seem as like this is what put us
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: on the path to where we are today. A lot
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: of it due to the digitization of communication and media.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, nineteen ninety nine, it's such a bell Weather year,
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: just for like all the just I think of a
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: thing and then I look it up and then it
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: was in nineteen ninety nine. So David Bowie in a
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine interview with the BBC with Jeremy Paxman,
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: he's asked about the Internet. Pasman is a little more
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: like skeptical about its reach and its power and its potential,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: and Bowie responds to his kind of, you know, not
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: being so sure that it's as big a deal as
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: everyone or as Bowie things. Anyway, I don't think that
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: we've even seen the top of the iceberg. I think
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: the potential of what the Internet is going to do
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: to society, both good and bad, is unimaginable, to which
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: Pasman retorts, the Internet's just a tool. Bowie says, it's
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: an alien life form and it is going to crush
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: our ideas of what mediums are all about.
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: And people were all people were prescient at this time,
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: that's for sure when you look back at what was
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: on folks mind. Similar to that Bowie conversation, we also
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: see so much emphasis on the turn of the millennium
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: right all through the nineteen nineties, in particular, people are
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: excited plus terror.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you were really genuinely concerned.
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: About that of moving into the twenty first century. There
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: were even conspiracies about the zipper manufacturer y two k
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: hy kk y kk yeah because it was two ky because.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: They're gonna be outcast lyrics zipp yeah yeah. Yeah.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: And we also saw, you know, we saw this in
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: hip hop. Two Bone Thugs and Harmony back in nineteen
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: ninety five, they released East nineteen ninety nine Eternal, which
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: is a banger for anybody who's in the older hip hop. Now,
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: what happens, what happens in the recovery period with the
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: move into the twenty first century. What happened to people
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: when they realized the nineties were over?
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: Well, might not have realized it until it was too late. You're,
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: you know, way past the the decade point, you know,
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: And I think people realized the party was over until
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: all the revenue had dried up from those you know,
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: media that they had been supporting for so long.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: And are we talking about like dot com bubble type
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: stuff for like just just just maybe just those old
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: models just kind of being antiquated.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: I was thinking more of the you know, the old
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: style of communication being antiquated. But but yeah, I mean
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: the dot com bubble, and I mean that's like two
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: thousand and one, two thousand and two, for sure, the
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: parties over. Yeah, yeah, those companies are being liquidated.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: Mm hmmm.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: We Oh, we're gonna get in trouble with our audience,
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: especially my girlfriend, if we don't mention some of the
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: merchandise fad obsessions of the nineties. Beanie babies, Ross, did
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: you ever have a beanie baby?
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: No?
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: Did you ever have a beanie baby?
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: I had a few, you had a few, Yeah, you know,
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: I didn't have like an attic full of thousands of them,
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: like some people did, but I had a handful of them,
• 35:03
  Speaker 4: and actually I still have a few in my house
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: that I let my kids play with because they're you know,
• 35:09
  Speaker 4: absolutely worthless.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: Now, hey, hold on to them, you know what I mean.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Don't let this be Star Wars Action figure.
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: The tag, the tie tag is ready ripped off. No
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: going back, No.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Going back, We've gone too far. We also wanted to
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: shout out as gamer nerds some other things in culture
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: that you explore in your book. Nineteen ninety nine, this
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: was a big year for video games as well. Right,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: is this the year the first Grand Theft Auto game
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: comes out? Oh?
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: It's it's when GTA two comes out, So it's the
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: first Grand Theft Auto sequel, but the first.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: More like what we know as modern GTA.
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: Well wait, I would say the modern gt The first
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: as we know modern GTA would be Grand Theft Auto three,
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: which was in two thousand and one. That's the Stay
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: Station two, that's right, But like I think Grand Theft
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: at two, and they also had a London Expansion pack
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: that came out in ninety nine. I found them to
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: be significant because, like you go from Grand Theft Ato
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: just being like a one off to like they're starting
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: to create a franchise on it, and it becomes the
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: biggest franchise in in media really.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: I mean Two's overhead view, it's like top down kind of. Yeah,
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: it's definitely not.
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, but yeah Tony Hawk pro Skater, like tons
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: of Pokemon games that did very well, Like gaming's really
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: in the social consciousness due to attempts to regulate and
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: Bannett falling Columbine.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: Are we PS one at this point?
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 36:32
  Speaker 4: So yeah, we're PS one and sixty four nineteen ninety nine.
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: PS two is announced in ninety nine, but it actually
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: doesn't come out for a year later. First, Silent Well
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: you have, Dreamcast comes out in ninety nine, and Dreamcast
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: is actually pretty significant because it's the first system with
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: the built in modem. You can do online play on
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: Dreamcast ahead of its time.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Ross, I'm sensing a fellow gamer in the crowd. We
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: also have to mention our pals. Super Max, a bit
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: of an enthusiast the video games himself, is blowing us
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: up with some notes here, so Max wants us to note,
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: like you said, Noel, Silent Hill also the first super
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: smash bro g thank you for that, Max, and then.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: We also just really quickly just took across over back
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: to the thing Max said as well. Another video game
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: was Star Wars episode one, The Phantom Menace, which was
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: the top grossing movie of nineteen ninety nine and not
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: very good.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: One might argue, Will Will, We'll see, right, it's up
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: to future historians, but I think we're on the same
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: page currently. Yeah, Phantom Menace is a really cool name.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: You know, the taxation of trade Routes, which was, you know,
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: a very boring way to up a prequel trilogy.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: Not the block.
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: I gotta say this last year that that's become really elevant.
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: Man.
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: You're right.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: Isn't that more the second one where they're really talking
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: about the blockades and the trade routes?
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: Or is that in the I.
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: Think of the first one in the in the scroll
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: at the opening the movie talk about the taxation of
• 38:09
  Speaker 4: trade routes of course contribute to the clone Wars, So
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: it's in the.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Is the one where I think of the real like
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: the heavy politics kind of like you're in the halls
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: of Parliament kind of moment.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Now I'm just imagining how George Lucas pitched that initially.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: I don't think he had to pitch it to anybody.
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: I want.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he said, they said, hey, how should we follow
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: up with this tremendous trilogy that you decided to start
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: in media arrests part way through and he said, what
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: do you guys think about taxation trade routes? That's a question, soul, George,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: what if there's a menace, that's a fantom.
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: We just weren't familiar enough with tariffs at the time
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: to appreciate where it was out prescient.
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: This is this is crazy.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: What are as as we're starting to wrap up here, Russ,
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: What are some of the things that you think more
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: of us in the audience today should realize about the
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: nineties sort of speaking to your point about the contention
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: that kind of gets ignored. What's something people forget about
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: the nineteen nineties.
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like, like we ready to discussed the contention, you
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: know with Columbine, the Internet and some terrorist incidents, Like
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: it wasn't for the people going through it at the time.
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: It wasn't as peaceful and prosperous as we perceive it
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: to be afterwards, because we know how it ends.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Yea further than Woodstock ninety nine by the way not up,
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: but like that that is the perfect visual example of
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: all of those tensions meaning up and setting the world
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: on fire.
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: And then another thing we didn't have time to get
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: too deep into. I just want to give out some
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: Juggalo love and say that, like, yeah, gathering in nineteen
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: ninety nine in same compost, he has always been an
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: acquired taste. But they got like closer to mass culture
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: than they than they ever had since they.
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: Were beloved by the new metal crowd.
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean they played at Woodstock, they had platinum records,
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: they were wrestling for WCWNWWF before that. So like people
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: like just bring them up and they joke about them now.
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: But like they had that contentious lawsuit with Disney, yeah,
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: where they were kicked off Disney's record before it even released,
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: and that gave them all this attention and helped them
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: become a hit, and they were like, you know, kind
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: of a big thing for a little bit, which you know,
• 40:28
  Speaker 4: people forget about now.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They also they even they got more press, if
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: we're going under the idea that any press is good press.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: They got more press when the FBI deemed Juggalos a game.
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that revived them in the popular press at least.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: And we're seeing a as we established at the top,
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: we're seeing this revival of the nineteen nineties in general.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: And we cannot thank you enough for your time to
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: Dave Ross. We also can't thank you enough for making
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: this kick ass book.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: So fun man, such a great conversay. Obviously this is
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: red meat for both of us. So a pleasure to
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: chat with you about this.
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah, this is fun as hell. I'd do it at anytime.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: Oh man, you're opening a door.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: Step through into the ridiculous, into our ridiculous world.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: No, I'm super down.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: I think there's a million ways we could cut this,
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: and there's other topics.
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: It's funny that you should. We should.
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: It should be ninety nine though, because technically we made
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: a tacit sort of like agreement that are cut off
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: for what would.
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: Be considered history is nineteen ninety four. So you have
• 41:33
  Speaker 3: just broadened our window, my friend. Because now, but isn't
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: that the nature of history.
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: The further you move into the future, the more recent
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: history becomes truly history Podcast.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: Twenty seventeen, So we could just keep moving it a
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: year year with a year.
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: There, You got exactly right.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: Okay, boy boy, are we living through some now I
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: means you're hired.
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, please, please, please please do check out nineteen ninety
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: nine Into your Low Culture, Conquered America and kick started
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: our bizarre times out now wherever you find your favorite books?
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: H Ross? Where can people go to learn more about
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: your work? And also, you don't have to answer this
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: last part any teasers on the next project.
• 42:16
  Speaker 4: So more about my work, just go to my website,
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: Ross spinish dot com. I'm occasionally on Twitter, but a
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: lot of what I do on there is post college
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: football stuff, So I.
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: Was gonna say, you're more of a reply guy, more
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: of a consumer.
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, not a ton of tweets. And my next
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: project is really just being with these dogs and kids.
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: I don't congra thank you.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: I got two little ones and then two hounds. And
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: I don't know when I'll have time to do another
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: book for quite some time, because I do have a
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: day job as well as an analyst, so my book
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: is like my second job and amazing.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: We'll have to have you on for some analysts as well.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, you have accidentally and hopefully consentually become our go
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: to expert on nineteen nineties culture and we can't wait
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: to have you back on the show. Ross, Thank you
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: so much. Thanks as well to our super producer mister
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: Max Williams Alex Williams, his biological brother, who composed this
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: track It's True.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Chris Frosciotis Nives, Jeff Codes here in Spirit, Jonathan Strickland,
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: the Quizzer, A J.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: Bahamas, Jacobs the Puzzler.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Big, big thanks to Rachel Big, Spinach Lance Big, Thanks
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: to the rude dudes of Ridiculous Crime. If you like us,
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: you'll love them and Noel just big thanks to the nineties.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we love the nineties. We'll see you next time, folks.
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.