Latest / Beyond Fulfillment Podcast / AI, M&A, and the Next Wave in Logistics; Expert Insights from Ben Gordon

Transcript

AI, M&A, and the Next Wave in Logistics; Expert Insights from Ben Gordon · Beyond Fulfillment Podcast

• 0:05
  And I think that's the definition of a great deal.
• 0:07
  Everybody benefits from it.
• 0:09
  It's not just one side wins and the other loses.
• 0:12
  No, it's actually one where there's a compelling exit for the sellers, but the buyers still have plenty of upside, plenty of opportunity, or as they say, plenty of meat on the bone for what comes next.
• 0:24
  In this special edition episode, we sit down with Ben Gordon, an industry leader in supply chain investment and innovation.
• 0:32
  Ben is the founder and Managing partner of Cambridge Capital, one of the largest private equity firms focused on supply chain and logistics, and the driving force behind bgsa, a specialized investment banking firm.
• 0:47
  With an impressive track record of building and investing in logistics companies.
• 0:52
  Ben's work consistently shapes the industry's future.
• 0:56
  In today's episode, we discuss the state of MA in the supply chain world as of mid 2025 as Ben shares real world insights from the impressive exit of Green Screens AI, which he co founded.
• 1:09
  We'll also talk about the market dynamics of predictive pricing and why the best logistics companies are often bought, not sold.
• 1:18
  We'll get Ben's take on market trends, what excites him about AI and specialized logistics, and we'll hear practical advice for anyone considering acquisitions or exits in this fast changing industry.
• 1:32
  You don't want to miss this strategic playbook from a true supply chain insider.
• 1:37
  As always, if you found value from this content, please like and subscribe.
• 1:42
  All right, Ben Gordon, welcome back to Beyond Fulfillment.
• 1:47
  Dave, thanks and great to be with you again.
• 1:49
  Absolutely.
• 1:50
  So, Ben, we have a special edition today where we're talking about the state of M and A within supply chain specifically.
• 1:59
  And right now we're recording this in late June of 2025.
• 2:03
  So I just wanted to recap some of the events we've seen already and then get your perspective on the market at large.
• 2:12
  For those that may not know, you're the founder of Cambridge Capital, which is one of the largest private equity firms within the supply chain industry, as well as BG sa, the investment banking firm.
• 2:26
  And I wanted to start too with just a recent deal that you were a big part of with the Green Screens AI.
• 2:32
  You were a co founder there and they just had a phenomenal exit which is just about two months old, if I'm not mistaken.
• 2:38
  Is that right?
• 2:39
  Yes, exactly.
• 2:40
  Yeah.
• 2:41
  Can you tell us about that deal, how it came about?
• 2:44
  Sure, Glad to.
• 2:46
  So, Dave, as you know, there's a lot happening in the realm of AI technology and innovation in supply chain, and one of the areas that's particularly important is predictive pricing.
• 2:57
  So whether you're a truck broker or shipper or carrier, pricing is the lifeblood of the business.
• 3:03
  It's something that you rely on.
• 3:04
  It's like oxygen in the air.
• 3:06
  That is, it's just, it permeates everything that you do.
• 3:10
  So, and of course, we've just lived through record volatility over the last five years, first with the spikes during COVID then the plunges during the Great Freight Recession.
• 3:20
  And one lesson that I think everybody has learned is in times of volatility, data and analytics can give you a competitive advantage.
• 3:29
  What Green Screens was formed to do was become the market leader in AI powered predictive pricing.
• 3:36
  What should it cost today, right now at 11 o' clock to ship a truckload of freight from Chicago to Atlanta?
• 3:42
  And what Green Screens figured out was they could train a data model using billions of dollars of freight spend and some brilliant AI engineers that had previously worked at Yandex, among others, and create a much more accurate real
• 4:00
  time system for pricing.
• 4:01
  And in a world where there was incumbent pricing, particularly by DAT and others, that would give you a snapshot, but that tended to be a lagging indicator, trailing, it would tell you what the average was, say over the
• 4:14
  last month instead of right this very moment.
• 4:17
  And it tended to be only as good as the data that you used to form the basis for your assumption.
• 4:23
  So if you were looking at a pool of data that was in a spot market that was self selecting because that, that was the volume that was moved in a spot market because it didn't move through pre existing
• 4:34
  contractual rates, you, you by definition had a subset of the market.
• 4:38
  So there were errors and, and inconsistencies.
• 4:41
  And what one of Green Screen's customers figured out was using Green Screens allowed them to slash that error rate by 5x, which was a huge advantage.
• 4:51
  So if you could price more accurately and more quickly, you could not only make better decisions, but you could also push those decisions to the front lines, to your people so they can make real time decisions instead of
• 5:02
  having to go up the chain for multiple approvals every time.
• 5:05
  So that was very valuable.
• 5:07
  But it turned out it wasn't only valuable for Green Screen's customers, it was also valuable for other people in the data and analytics world.
• 5:14
  So, you know, over the last couple of years, there were multiple companies that reached out and expressed interest in the business.
• 5:20
  And you know, the general answer was Green Screens isn't for sale.
• 5:24
  But you're always willing to listen and have a conversation because, you know, we're all capitalists at the end of the day.
• 5:30
  Right.
• 5:30
  So, you know, so we had the conversations, but we weren't focused on selling.
• 5:35
  Well, finally, we had a very interesting conversation with Aaron Graft, who's the CEO of Triumph, of course, the.
• 5:42
  The leading bank and financial institution for the transportation sector.
• 5:47
  $2 billion business focused on lending, factoring, and a host of other capabilities, whether it's for truck brokerage or transportation as a whole.
• 5:55
  And Aaron made an interesting point.
• 5:57
  He said, we understand how important pricing is.
• 6:00
  We understand how it fits into a broader ecosystem of analytics and intelligence, and we've decided that we've got to be there.
• 6:08
  So we're either going to be there with you as a partner or without you as a competitor.
• 6:14
  So, you know, maybe we'll buy you or maybe we'll compete with you.
• 6:18
  Naturally, I preferred the first option to the second.
• 6:22
  And so, you know, we began a dialogue, and that dialogue, you know, proceeded over a period of time, and it ultimately culminated in.
• 6:31
  In the deal that you referred to that was announced.
• 6:33
  And so that's the summary.
• 6:35
  So, happy to go into more detail on some of the nuances, but that's really the headline.
• 6:40
  Well, the multiple isn't public.
• 6:42
  The valuation was public.
• 6:43
  So I'll say this.
• 6:46
  The valuation for green screens was 160 million, and that valuation was set based on the LOI from December of last year.
• 6:57
  It was, of course, the basis for the deal that was signed in February and then which ultimately closed in May.
• 7:04
  Green Screen's revenue isn't public, although Triumph may at some point make.
• 7:10
  Make it public.
• 7:11
  I'll.
• 7:11
  I'll leave that to them to make that decision.
• 7:13
  I won't do that for them.
• 7:15
  But.
• 7:16
  But yeah, it was.
• 7:16
  It was a.
• 7:17
  A deal that I think everybody was happy with.
• 7:20
  We as shareholders of Green Screens were happy because we thought it was a good price for a great business that reflected the success, the value created and what was coming.
• 7:33
  But it also was a great deal for Triumph because it gave Triumph leadership in predictive pricing, which really gives you so much power in terms of all kinds of other analytic capabilities.
• 7:44
  If you think about it, if you have what Green Screens now has, which is over 30, approaching $40 billion of freight flung through the system, you could do all kinds of great things with that data.
• 7:55
  One, you, of course, could come up with better predictive pricing.
• 7:58
  But then, two, there are other analytical capabilities that can come out of that.
• 8:03
  And in fact, Triumph is building a whole intelligence business unit.
• 8:07
  And I'm delighted to share that Don, who is the CEO of Green Screens, is now running that entire intelligence business for Triumph.
• 8:17
  And I think it reflects well, first of all on Don, second of all on the rest of the team at green screens, and third of all, I think on the wisdom of the Triumph team to understand that this
• 8:28
  wasn't just about buying a business in technology, but also bringing on board a world class team.
• 8:35
  And I think all of those had value for Triumph.
• 8:38
  And I think those are all reasons why Triumph will continue to be very successful.
• 8:42
  And I say that as somebody who is now and expects to continue to be a material shareholder of Triumph for, you know, for the foreseeable future.
• 8:52
  So I'm, I'm of course fully aligned with that.
• 8:55
  So, so, you know, and I think that's the definition of a, of a great deal.
• 9:00
  Everybody benefits from it.
• 9:01
  It's not just one side wins and the other loses.
• 9:04
  No, it's actually one where there's a compelling exit for the sellers.
• 9:08
  But, but the buyers still have plenty of upside, plenty of opportunity, or as they say, plenty of meat on the bone for what comes next.
• 9:16
  Okay.
• 9:16
  And as someone that does this for a living, where you're always working on acquisition deals and in the space, how often do you see that scenario where you have a growing company that's not even thinking about selling and
• 9:31
  then someone comes along and makes them an offer they can't refuse and then a deal happens?
• 9:36
  Well, I think the best companies are bought and not sold.
• 9:41
  And this is a good illustration of that.
• 9:43
  So what does that mean?
• 9:45
  Best companies are bought, not sold?
• 9:47
  Because ultimately if you're doing something great and there's somebody else that gets real strategic value, then first of all, it should come from them.
• 9:57
  They should be the one that's interested and that recognizes it and reaches out.
• 10:01
  Second of all, you know, that should lead to a compelling outcome for everybody.
• 10:05
  That's not to say that if you have a great business and you hire a banker and you run a sale process that, that might not help you get to the best outcome possible.
• 10:15
  But on the other hand, if you have built something fantastic, let somebody else know about it.
• 10:24
  Let them take the initiative.
• 10:26
  As one of our clients from over 20 years ago, from early in the BGSA days, Eric Wilhelm like to say you should run the business like you're going to run it forever, but also you're prepared to sell it
• 10:39
  tomorrow.
• 10:40
  And I think those two things don't have to be in conflict.
• 10:44
  Right?
• 10:44
  Run it like you're going to run it forever, which means keep making the investments and being great.
• 10:49
  Doing something that's differentiated, that's focused on what produces Long term results, but on the other hand, be ready to sell it tomorrow.
• 10:57
  Meaning make sure that you're also focused on the metrics that an outside party would care about, that a buyer would care about.
• 11:04
  By the way, that's something that I get asked to do a lot of.
• 11:08
  Whether we end up buying a business as Cambridge Capital or whether we end up on the investment banking side at bgsa, helping a company to sell or maximize value, we often will take a look at a business and
• 11:22
  basically just do an assessment which is, okay, well what does it look like?
• 11:25
  And if, if there were going to be a deal today, you know, what would, what would be the things that we would care about, what would be the things that would be strengths and weaknesses, what would the dashboard
• 11:35
  look like?
• 11:36
  And then importantly, what would happen next?
• 11:38
  Meaning maybe everything's perfect, but more likely there are a lot of strengths, but then there are also some weaknesses or gaps to address.
• 11:47
  I mean, so for example, if you looked at green screens, early on, like a year after I got involved, green screens had great technology, but they also had lots of different product areas.
• 12:00
  And, and an obvious weakness was, especially when you're a startup, if you're doing everything, you're not going to do one thing really well.
• 12:07
  You just can't.
• 12:08
  And so the thing that green screens needed to do in the beginning was focus on the thing that was most valuable, which was predictive pricing, and then really become the best at it.
• 12:19
  Then if you looked at the business a year later, you would have found that they were fantastic at that and had done a great job, strong team, great technology, great early adopters.
• 12:30
  But you could say that, all right, the penetration is really small.
• 12:33
  How do you massively ramp that up and how do you build a repeatable process, which meant being able to integrate faster, expanding the sales team, having good customer success and the team and the ability to support that, and
• 12:48
  ultimately massively boosting the market penetration.
• 12:51
  And that worked and that produced growth.
• 12:53
  Then if you looked at the business a year later, you might say, hey, those are all great.
• 12:57
  But know, one criticism might be you're a one trick pony.
• 13:00
  You're great at the predictive pricing for spot market.
• 13:03
  But you know, do you want to get into, for example, you know, short term contract bids or do you want to get into some other adjacencies?
• 13:10
  And so, you know, I think at each point along the way, any company, no matter how successful they are, has to be thinking objectively.
• 13:18
  If there was an outside third party looking at the business, what would they like?
• 13:23
  What would they be concerned about and how do we turn those weaknesses into strengths.
• 13:26
  And I think, you know, the, the green screens journey is a really good example of that.
• 13:31
  Okay, and great point to, to segue into the next topic because you made, you made a comment earlier about that the best businesses are bought, not sold.
• 13:41
  And I'm sure you see this all the time.
• 13:43
  And I, I know of several companies that were up for sale and didn't get sold.
• 13:48
  And you know, the, the valuation there was a gap between right.
• 13:51
  What they had it priced at and maybe where are some of the biggest mistakes you see companies make when they're.
• 13:59
  Where they're attempting to sell?
• 14:02
  Well, I think one mistake is a lot of owners, particularly people that haven't gone through a deal process before, think that, number one, my company is so great it'll sell itself.
• 14:17
  And no company ever sells itself.
• 14:19
  It just, it, it doesn't, it takes work, it's hard.
• 14:22
  There's a lot of process intensive work.
• 14:25
  There's also the question of how do you tell the story in a compelling way that makes sense to a buyer?
• 14:31
  How do you educate them on it's not what you have that's so great.
• 14:35
  It's what's in it for them.
• 14:38
  The saying, it's trite.
• 14:40
  But trite expressions are often repeated for a reason because they're true.
• 14:45
  Everybody's favorite radio station is wifm, right?
• 14:49
  Or wiifm.
• 14:50
  What's in it for me?
• 14:52
  And so you've got to be able to tell your story in a way that resonates with the counterparty because what's in it for them is the thing that matters.
• 15:00
  So I think number one is, I think many people underestimate how hard it is, how much work it takes to be able to tell the story.
• 15:09
  Part of that's putting the data together, part of that's explaining what it means, and then part of that's being able to show what the next owner could do as a result.
• 15:17
  So I think that's probably number one.
• 15:22
  I think a second mistake or challenge that often comes up is a variation of that, which is what's great for you might not be great for the next guy.
• 15:32
  I'll give you an example.
• 15:35
  You know, Cambridge Capital is majority owner of a terrific company in the freight management business, truck brokerage company called Everest.
• 15:44
  Everest has scaled up nicely, recently made an acquisition of a company called simple, which we're very excited about.
• 15:52
  Looking at other deals.
• 15:54
  Of course, a lot of companies in freight brokerage have had a rough three years because of the freight recession.
• 15:59
  And so There are businesses that Everest has looked at and talked to that cumulatively may make a lot of money, but maybe it's concentrated in a particular industry, you know, or the particular customer or particular time of year.
• 16:15
  And, and you know, in aggregate, maybe that's great, right?
• 16:19
  Maybe in aggregate, you make, you know, plenty of money.
• 16:23
  But if you have risk or exposure because of those concentrations, whether in an industry or customer or a period of time, guess what?
• 16:31
  That presents risk.
• 16:32
  That makes it harder for a bank to finance.
• 16:36
  It presents risks for an owner, risks for an investor.
• 16:39
  And so again, it might be great for you, but you got to ask, well, what does it mean for somebody else?
• 16:45
  What does it mean for the counterparty?
• 16:47
  And so I think recognizing the importance of that is critical.
• 16:50
  And then the third thing that I would add is the importance of expectations.
• 16:57
  There are plenty of situations where people remember, and we're all human, right?
• 17:04
  We have selective memories.
• 17:05
  We remember the best things, and maybe that's what makes us optimists, but it also can set us up for failure.
• 17:15
  If you were a seller and you remembered valuations in 2021, during peak Covid, you saw record earnings and record multiples of earnings leading to record valuations for deals.
• 17:29
  But guess what?
• 17:30
  We're not in that market anymore.
• 17:32
  We're in 2025.
• 17:34
  But if your expectation is set and you're comparing yourself with 2021 numbers, guess what, you're always going to be disappointed.
• 17:41
  And so I think there is a, an important, let's just say, fundamental requirement that is, if you're going to go into a deal process and you don't have realistic expectations, you're more likely to be set up for failure.
• 17:59
  And you'd be better off looking at what the comps are and what's happening today and what's a reasonable foundation for it to expect today.
• 18:10
  And if that's not a reasonable expectation that you're happy with, well, then you shouldn't start the process.
• 18:16
  But reasonable expectations based on today and not selective points in time is pretty important as well.
• 18:24
  Do you see that particularly in, in this market where we've, like you said, we've been within the freight recession for the past three years and still people have memories of those boom times for during COVID I mean, do
• 18:36
  you see that as a big challenge where people, sellers particularly, don't have realistic expectations?
• 18:43
  Oh, definitely.
• 18:44
  And it reminds me of, say, freight markets in 2009 and 10.
• 18:50
  You know, the trucking recession really began in 2006, and then it cascaded through other areas of freight and Then ultimately the wider economy, but really that was 06 to 09.
• 19:03
  And then so if you had a truck brokerage or a freight business of any kind, 2009, 1011, 2009, the market was still depressed.
• 19:14
  But if you were remembering the good old days of 05 and 06, you didn't sell because you thought, hey, why would I sell at this multiple?
• 19:23
  You know, when, when the multiples were double that, you know, in 05 and 06 and my earnings were double that.
• 19:29
  So I'm taking a, a 4x discount if, if that's the way that somebody was, was framing it, but they weren't really taking a forex discount.
• 19:37
  The reality is that the business was probably not worth as much as it seemed to be in 05 or 06.
• 19:45
  But you know, we just didn't know at the time that that was a cyclical top.
• 19:48
  Right.
• 19:48
  So we're seeing the same thing now, which is that a lot of people who are in the freight industry might want to sell but aren't willing to now because of that comparison with that peak trough analysis that we're
• 20:05
  talking about now, the ones that have sold in the last couple of years, some of them have just been rational and willing to accept and embrace reality today, some of them have transacted for other reasons.
• 20:18
  Maybe just an owner is at a life stage where it makes sense or there's strategic factors.
• 20:24
  For instance, UPS divesting the Coyote Logistics division, rxo, because strategically it didn't make sense for UPS to be in that business anymore.
• 20:33
  But I would say that the vast majority of the owners of freight companies that I know who want to sell have held off on selling because of this variation.
• 20:45
  Okay.
• 20:45
  All right, so let's talk about the, the market, the logistics market specifically, you know, for, for the rest of the year, 2025.
• 20:54
  Clearly we've had some big deals already this year.
• 20:57
  What, where do you see, what do you see in the market coming up as far as trends and, you know, potential for this, this last half of the year?
• 21:07
  Yeah, so trends and expectations.
• 21:09
  So a couple things.
• 21:10
  Number one, I do think we're seeing a rebound in M and A activity as a whole.
• 21:16
  I think in particular we're seeing it in certain niche areas that are maybe a little bit more protected.
• 21:22
  I'll give you some examples, areas like flatbed or refrigerated or semiconductor logistics or other areas where there's just a little bit more of a differentiation or a moat in those categories that matters.
• 21:38
  And that's certainly one area where we're Seeing more activity.
• 21:41
  Two, of course, not just on the freight side, but on the tech side, AI in particular.
• 21:48
  Look, everything AI related is hot, A because of the hype cycle, B, because there's real impact.
• 21:56
  So AI powered companies, of which Green Screens is one example, can create a lot of value, create a lot of impact, automate workflow, help improve data and analytics and better decision making, et cetera.
• 22:09
  Third, of course, it's where there's a tremendous amount of venture capital funding.
• 22:14
  By some estimates, something like 80% of all early stage venture money is going into AI and AI related companies now.
• 22:21
  So more money leads to more activity, leads to more impact.
• 22:26
  So I think that's less about M and A, but it is more about capital markets activity.
• 22:31
  And then fourth, and finally, I would say that there is continuing interest in and value ascribed to productivity tools.
• 22:41
  If you think about it, if you're a freight company and you're coming out of this freight recession, you're a lot more interested in spending money on things that give you an immediate bottom line impact than you are investing
• 22:53
  in things that might take a year to produce some sort of a payoff.
• 22:56
  So productivity savings that are quick, again, you see a lot of interest that translates into investment.
• 23:03
  And that does also lead to some M and A activity.
• 23:06
  And we're seeing some.
• 23:07
  And you know, I'll tell you, you know, BGSA is working on a couple of companies in that realm right now.
• 23:11
  There's a terrific company in fleet management, AI powered fleet management software, for instance, that, that reflects that.
• 23:18
  So I think those are all areas where you're going to see more and more activity over the next few months.
• 23:23
  It wouldn't surprise me if the volume and value of deal activity in the second half of this year is a lot higher than the first half.
• 23:32
  Like, you know, 50% higher.
• 23:36
  Really?
• 23:36
  Yeah.
• 23:37
  Okay.
• 23:38
  All right.
• 23:38
  And what, seeing the overall market and being someone that's in this space and is, is constantly working on deals, what are you most excited about within supply chain, you know, in the acquisition space?
• 23:52
  Well, I'm excited about, so I'd say three things.
• 23:54
  One is AI powered businesses in different areas of supply chain.
• 23:58
  And you'll see that, you know, we'll announce some things, but we're, we're investing in some pretty interesting companies that are AI or AI powered companies in different areas of supply chain.
• 24:10
  Whether that's workflow, automation or better analytics or otherwise.
• 24:14
  It's just, it's an enormous market.
• 24:15
  There's so many areas of application and opportunity.
• 24:18
  So I think that's 1 2, I think very interested in niche applications where you could be the leader in a particular sector.
• 24:27
  So, I mean, just as an example, we invested in a company last year called stat.
• 24:32
  STAT helps brands, you know, CPG companies reduce the OTIF and other fees that, that they get charged from a Walmart or a Target or Home Depot or other retailers, you know, if they don't deliver on time and in
• 24:46
  full.
• 24:47
  Part of this is an auditing process.
• 24:49
  Part of this is a compliance process, part of this is a workflow improvement process.
• 24:54
  But the bottom line is STAT is using you know, AI, other software and services to help companies save tens of millions of dollars a year in some cases in this realm, you know, audit recovery and otherwise.
• 25:11
  That's pretty interesting.
• 25:12
  And it's a good example of going deep within a particular niche, adding a lot of value for customers, and then, you know, of course, being able to create value and reap the benefits of that.
• 25:21
  So niche specialization is a second area that I'm very interested.
• 25:25
  And then the third is, you know, putting our money where our mouth is.
• 25:28
  You know, we do think that we're coming out of the bottom of the freight cycle and, you know, starting to invest in companies in the freight arena and support that, whether it's things like the Everest acquisition with simple
• 25:39
  or, or other things that are similar to that.
• 25:42
  So I think those are three areas that I'm excited about.
• 25:45
  Where we're putting our money, where our mouth is.
• 25:48
  Okay.
• 25:49
  All right.
• 25:49
  And Ben, if, if companies are in the space and they want, you know, they want your opinion, they want your insights, or they want you to help them either potentially find an acquisition or get their own company ready
• 26:01
  to sell.
• 26:02
  What's the best way people can reach out to you?
• 26:05
  They can reach out to me directly.
• 26:07
  They can email me benambridgecapital.com or go to LinkedIn.
• 26:13
  Pretty easy to find, you know, @BenGordon18 is the handle.
• 26:19
  But, you know, there's, there's only one Ben Gordon at Cambridge Capital that you can easily, you know, find, you know, LinkedIn or website or otherwise.
• 26:29
  But yeah, look, I'm, I'm, you know, absolutely interested in and happy to help and be accessible to CEOs and leaders in supply chain that are, that are thinking about ideas, you know, whether, whether we're the right fit or
• 26:43
  not.
• 26:43
  Obviously, you know, we can only be the right fit for a, you know, small number of the many companies that are out there.
• 26:48
  But, you know, certainly happy to be available and accessible.
• 26:53
  And the other thing that I'll add, Dave, is we host an annual conference.
• 26:57
  This January will be our 20th annual supply chain CEO conference.
• 27:01
  It's here in sunny Palm beach at the breakers and January 21 to 23 and you know we host over 350 of the top CEOs and leaders in the sector.
• 27:11
  Great place for people to learn what's happening in the market.
• 27:14
  Great place to talk about ideas whether that's investment M and A strategic technology or otherwise.
• 27:23
  And certainly delighted to invite and include folks that would like to be a part of that as well.
• 27:29
  Okay.
• 27:30
  Yeah.
• 27:30
  And we'll put those links in the show notes as well as the link to your annual event.
• 27:34
  So.
• 27:34
  All right.
• 27:35
  Well Ben, thanks so much for being here taking time to share all these insights on the the supply chain market and the the M and A activity.
• 27:43
  We greatly appreciate it.
• 27:45
  Listen, Dave, thank you.
• 27:47
  Pleasure is mine as always and love talking with you and delighted to share whatever feedback I can with your audience.
• 27:55
  Okay.
• 27:55
  Thanks so much.
• 28:00
  Sam.