Latest / Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News / Killed to order: China’s organ harvesting industry and the true nature of America’s biggest adversary

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Killed to order: China’s organ harvesting industry and the true nature of America’s biggest adversary · Cultural Wars | America Out Loud News

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Now let's get started.
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Today's conversation is with senior editor of Epic Times and host of the magnificent show, the American Thought Leaders, Jan Yakelik, to talk about his book, Killed to Order, China's organ harvesting industry and the true nature of America's biggest adversary.
2:23
A look at China's state-sanctioned harvesting of organs from prisoners of conscience.
2:30
Jan, thank you so much for being here with us today.
2:33
I'm so excited to have you here.
2:35
I such an honor to have you on my show.
2:37
Dr.
2:38
Tenpenny, the honor is all mine.
2:41
Well, you know, your book, killed to order is just such a riveting read.
2:47
I mean, once you you start pick it up and you start reading it, it's just a page turner.
2:51
It just sucks you in.
2:53
I mean, not only talking about the organ harvesting industry, but all the different things that were going on with uh with China.
2:59
In your book at the beginning, you talk about the fact that you were trained as an evolutionary biologist and you became ill.
3:07
And when you were not improving by conventional medicine, you were kind of serendipitously introduced to the practice of Falan Gong, which over time helped you to get well.
3:17
And so that makes this whole story really personal to you.
3:21
So tell us what Falan Gong is and what led you down the path to look into this organ harvesting industry.
3:29
Excellent question.
3:31
And yeah, it was really by, you know, I won't say by chance because I kind of see God's hand in these things, right?
3:38
But it was it really kind of a providence.
3:41
But um, no, basically, I mean, I was pretty much what you would call an agnostic, someone who believed that, you know, I had actually chosen science as a good system by which I can sort of figure out how the world works.
3:53
I was always interested in understanding the truth of things, right?
3:57
And um, and so I that led me down the path of studying evolutionary biology uh in in school and so forth.
4:05
And uh and I worked in Madagascar, and the last time I was there, I contracted something called an ascarid uh infection.
4:14
It's kind of a parasitic worm infection, and I'm now I'm back in Alberta where my lab was, and I end up I have mono, I have uh this askerid infection, and I have uh kind of a really tough relationship that I was in.
4:27
Okay.
4:27
And I believe the combination of that triggered something called Guian Berry syndrome, which of course you're very familiar with.
4:35
Um, and some of the viewers might be as well.
4:37
Um, some there's some uh one of the COVID vaccines, the J and J actually has it as a known side effect.
4:44
Um, and it's just it's basically an immune system uh going haywire and attacking the peripheral nervous system.
4:50
It's a syndrome.
4:51
So it's you know, the it's just kind of a collection of symptoms, if you will.
4:55
And but the effect of that collection of symptoms was it it really destroyed my career because I couldn't do, I was a geneticist.
5:02
Um I was collecting samples in the field, I was bringing them back, I was working on them, and a lot of the five fine motor skills and all of that weren't happening.
5:10
And I had double vision and just like every everything was not working well, okay.
5:14
And I didn't know, and it was, you know, for a while it was getting worse, and then I wasn't sure where it would go.
5:19
And uh, you know, kind of and it along the way, right?
5:24
I I I sort of made a uh a promise, I guess you would say.
5:28
And I said, I actually talked to God as a lot of people do when this sort of thing uh when faced with mortality, your own mortality.
5:36
And I said, I'll dedicate my life to service just in case you know, you're up there and taking care of things, you know.
5:42
Uh, and and so no, it was very interesting.
5:44
And not long after that, actually, I I met this guy who he was just someone that I talked film with at a local coffee shop.
5:52
I wasn't someone that I knew particularly well necessarily, but he, you know, we that was just our thing.
5:58
And he told me uh that that he had had chronic fatigue syndrome and he had used this slow motion exercise and meditation system to help himself.
6:08
And I kind of, you know, of course, I said, well, sure, tell what it, you know, tell me about it.
6:13
And he said, you should try this.
6:14
It's uh I learned it off you remember those low resolution DVDs called VCDs back in the day.
6:20
I learned it from a grainy video on my computer screen.
6:23
Um, and you know, there were these slow motion exercises and of sitting meditation that I did, and it just I tried it basically, and it just made me feel a little better for the first time in a while.
6:35
So I just started, you know, implementing it as best I could um every day from then from first trying.
6:43
And basically within a better part of two months, like I didn't really, it was a small slow incremental, very positive change.
6:50
I felt better, so I kept doing it.
6:53
And um, I had like I wasn't deathly ill.
6:56
So I had been in the hospital for I think it was about a week, and at some point I said, look, I don't really need to be at a hospital.
7:03
If things go really bad, I'll call you and you can pick me up and bring me back here.
7:07
You know, it's I don't need to be wasting a hospital bed.
7:10
I can, you know, and I'm pretty self-aware patient.
7:12
So they let me, you know, not be at the hospital.
7:15
But um uh uh as this all started happening, I was just kind of doing my thing, right?
7:21
And I feeling better.
7:22
I had a neurologist's appointment uh about two months in.
7:27
Okay.
7:27
And when I went to see her, she basically said, you are in full remission.
7:32
She tested my reflexes.
7:34
I had gotten my reflexes back, which was, you know, that was one of the scary things at the beginning because I completely lost them.
7:40
Um, you know, the kind of like party trick reflex where you hit the just below the patella, right?
7:46
And it kicks.
7:47
Um, yeah, they it was fully back.
7:50
Um, and I just felt, you know, I I didn't fully grasp that I had completely recovered until she kind of shocked, said you're in complete remission.
8:00
And here's the really interesting part of the story, right?
8:02
This is something, of course, I've told this story a number of times, right?
8:05
Over my through my life in the different manifestations.
8:08
But but my wife, when I when I talked about it with my wife, you know, 22 years ago, we've been married 21 years right now, right?
8:16
She mentioned to me.
8:18
She, I told her, said, Oh, yeah, that doctor, did she ever ask you uh what it was that you did to heal yourself, right?
8:26
And I thought about it.
8:27
I was like, come to think of it, no, actually.
8:30
No, she never did.
8:31
She said, she said this.
8:32
I kid you not, she said, whatever it is you're doing, keep doing it.
8:35
So she was positive.
8:37
She was encouraging, right?
8:38
She was amazed.
8:39
She said, You're in complete remission, but she never was curious, oddly at that, you know, I'd never thought about it until my wife pointed it out, right?
8:47
She wasn't curious enough to ask what it was that had caused this, right?
8:52
This this sudden spontaneous remission, right?
8:54
As she called it.
8:55
So anyway, um, uh uh that's the that's kind of the story.
9:00
And and and in the process, I tried to find out what it was that I was doing, right?
9:05
Uh, really, right?
9:06
And I learned that it's truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance.
9:09
These are the core principles that these exercises are viewed as supplemental to this whole practice.
9:16
And so I started studying these teachings to try to understand, you know, better.
9:20
I met people that were actually doing this, right?
9:22
Uh, at the University of Alberta where I was, uh, there was a postdoc whose mother had actually escaped from China.
9:28
So unbeknownst to me, the Chinese Communist Party had started persecuting this group right around the same time as I had gotten Gian Barry.
9:37
Okay, like right about at the same time.
9:38
And then I kind of healed myself.
9:40
And now, you know, people were being incarcerated, um, being tortured.
9:44
And this is this, this woman that had escaped from China, whose daughter was a postdoc, I think in the department of chemistry or something that I have to check.
9:53
But uh, she basically was telling me through her daughter as a translator, like they gave me a piece of paper.
10:00
It was three statements I had to sign, right?
10:02
To agree to.
10:04
But basically that they were you have to renounce your belief and you have to try to re-educate others, contribute, do your part to re-educate others.
10:15
Okay.
10:15
That was the idea.
10:18
And this woman said, of course I'm not going to sign this.
10:20
That's this is insane, right?
10:21
Like, and I was just listening to all this, right?
10:24
And of course, and they tortured her.
10:25
They tortured her to get her to do it, right?
10:28
And to me, the whole thing was so bizarre, right?
10:32
Because like, what do you mean?
10:33
You can like, because you here's the thing, right?
10:36
Whenever someone is being persecuted or someone's in jail or whatever, you think to yourself, what did you do?
10:42
What did you do?
10:43
Right?
10:43
Like that's how our minds work, right?
10:45
And I realized with this, like that, that that she could sign a piece of paper and leave.
10:50
Like that obviously you didn't do anything wrong.
10:52
And then like I had this moment, and every time I talk about this, okay, I get this massive shiver down my spine, which I am getting again, as I always do.
11:00
And I think about this moment.
11:02
But it's like everything.
11:03
My parents had escaped communist Poland in the 70s.
11:06
And they had we had all these weird behaviors in our family, right?
11:09
Where like you couldn't talk about anything from in the family, outside the family.
11:13
It was really frustrating because you couldn't, you know, you couldn't say, My parents are driving me crazy or whatever, right?
11:19
And we had, and they taught me communism was bad and everything, but they escaped it, right?
11:23
But I didn't really understand why.
11:25
I grew up in this super free society, right?
11:27
In Canada, right in the you know, 70s and 80s, and and just it just hit me, like it just went through me.
11:34
I was, oh my God, this is communism.
11:37
This is how it works.
11:39
They take they they the the it's it's the freedom of thought of this person that's the threat, right?
11:45
This is why they're persecuting this person has done nothing wrong, right?
11:49
And I knew at that moment that I that my kind of commitment to giving my life to service, which is what I promised back, you know, when I was uh some months before when I was, you know, facing my mortality, that this would be my service.
12:06
I would try to help these people.
12:07
Um, and and and you know, I don't know, saw I didn't know at the time exactly how that would happen, but it led me to do China related human rights work and ultimately led me to the epoch times because there was this huge narrative at the time, okay.
12:22
And this was it was like a 90 95-5 narrative, okay.
12:26
You know, we say 8020, all that, right?
12:28
But basically the narrative was I call it the Kissinger doctrine.
12:33
If we pump enough cash into China, it's going to become a democracy, it's going to liberalize, it's going to become uh South Korea or Taiwan or something like that, right?
12:42
And I already knew by the fact that they were torturing people for their faith for their beliefs that this is false.
12:49
Like you can't have a society that's that's doing extreme things to people around their core identity and beliefs that's liberalizing.
12:57
That's not liberalizing, but everybody believed it.
12:59
There were all sorts, you know, left, right, up and down.
13:02
It was just the standard view, okay.
13:05
And so I epoch was the only media.
13:08
I was doing this human rights work.
13:09
I had these amazing stories I wanted to tell of people, you know, basically against all odds, escaping, you know, no one wanted to touch it because the narrative was wrong.
13:19
The narrative suggested that there's something wrong in China, that it isn't liberalizing, you know, and all this stuff.
13:25
So epoch was kind of, I don't know what to call it, like it was this haven.
13:29
It was tiny, tiny at the time, but they were, you know, I I came to them with these stories, and unlike every single other media that I had talked to, big and small, you know, they were like, this is we live for this.
13:41
This is what we need.
13:42
Give us everything you got, you know.
13:44
And we sort of, my wife and I, we sort of fell in love with with with epoch and have been there for you know over 20 years, uh uh working with them.
13:53
Yeah.
13:53
You know, in your book, you paint a really vivid and pretty grisly picture of the Chinese communist party from blacklists to the one child rule to the utilitarian bioethics of individual sacrifice to enforce the undivided loyalty to the party.
14:10
This helps to explain somewhat the attack on Fe Long Gong, and you make it so clear that they are just a peace-loving, kind, generous sort of people.
14:20
And that was so opposed to the communist party.
14:23
I think listeners need to really understand this and really understand what is really going on with Chinese, uh, with the Chinese communist party.
14:31
And I don't think that anyone that's in the country currently today advocating for Marxism and communism in this country really understands how bad it really is.
14:41
I mean, when you write this, do you do you did you experience that?
14:45
Did you go to China and experience that?
14:47
Or does it from your family history?
14:50
Or where did you kind of because you write with such passion, you can actually feel it when you read the book.
14:56
It's not just words on the paper that you just really can feel what's going on there.
15:01
Well, it really does come from my family at the beginning of it, right?
15:06
Because my family both uh, you know, both of my sides of my family suffered under various totalitarian regimes, let's say, okay.
15:15
And so I'm very familiar with with with these kinds of realities.
15:19
And my parents, you know, my mother basically, she had to flee because see, my mother wasn't one of these sort of activists in any communist society.
15:28
There's people that resist the system, right?
15:30
That aren't sort of, but a surprising number don't, by the way, just as a as a that that's something that I've learned just, you know, watching the last say five to ten years of of life here in in the West.
15:42
Um, but uh she wasn't one of these big activists that would put up a sign that said, uh, you're down with communism or something like that, right?
15:52
But what she was was she was like a group, part of this group of what you call passive resistors, which are people that think you never would learn Russian, right?
15:59
Because it was they viewed it as Russian occupation.
16:02
You would, you know, when when the commissars and various communists wanted you to do stuff for them, you would just try to avoid it at all costs.
16:11
You would try, you know, there's just basically there's a whole kind of system that people develop to try to not be complicit, despite the system demanding you be, right?
16:20
Which is kind of how communist societies work.
16:23
And at one point she was called in to the security, and they basically said, Hey, we need you to tell us about ex-person and what they were doing last night.
16:32
And at that moment, she had to reveal herself because she basically said, Look, I'm not you couldn't say no, by the way.
16:39
You couldn't this is the crazy thing in these in these situations that I could if I said no, I would be in jail.
16:44
But I didn't say that.
16:45
I said, um, I'm just not made out for this kind of thing, you know.
16:50
It's just like you had always trying to kind of be very light and fluffy, but but the effect of that was that she lost her travel documents, she lost her ability.
16:58
She had been like she just she she had been able to kind of function in in the society at a reasonable level, but she lost all that.
17:04
And that's when she made up her mind.
17:06
I want to have kids, I want, but I want them to grow up in a free society.
17:10
So they escaped.
17:11
And that's there's a whole amazing story about how she did that and and got my father out and and so forth.
17:18
But so it comes from that, okay.
17:21
But then the second part, right?
17:23
I was um I uh work I ended up, and again, sort of I see God's hand and a lot of things that I do really and and just by an amazing uh again, providence or serendipity.
17:36
Um, I ended up getting a job, not having ever worked in Thailand, but I got a job working in Thailand running uh international youth programs, which is something I had done.
17:45
It was just kind of a surprising placement for someone that had never done that, that particular type of place.
17:51
And it turned out that my wife actually had worked and lived in Thailand before and spoke the language.
17:56
So we both went and I worked in the countryside, she stayed in Bangkok and she discovered this whole underground railroad of people who are being uh uh, you know, prisoners of conscience being brought from China through this golden triangle, this kind of treacherous lawless area into Bangkok where they could actually get refugee status, UN refugee status and get placements to to to safe countries.
18:20
I think there were six of them.
18:21
I talk a little bit about this in the book as well.
18:23
And so we just it was just this amazing thing.
18:26
We've never needed a lot to get by, like both that's something my wife and I share.
18:30
We're very we're very adventurous and we're just very happy with with not a lot, and it was just a natural place for us to stay for a while.
18:38
And the way that we were able to help them is that uh uh the Chinese would always pressure the ties, okay?
18:46
And the ties would kind of want to make you they don't want to make enemies with anybody, right?
18:51
So they would kind of they wouldn't arrest the various refugees that were in the country, even though they were perfectly allowed to.
18:58
It was a it was an unusual refugee situation where the Tais have never signed the convention.
19:03
So everybody there was technically illegal, but they kind of tolerated it because they didn't want trouble with the UN or with the US.
19:11
So it actually helped they were able to help a lot of people too.
19:14
But at the same time, you know, the regimes would be there, like the Chinese regime would say, arrest these people, send them back to China.
19:21
And once in a while, they felt they had to um, you know, comply to show that they're not against the Chinese entirely, and they would do that.
19:30
And and then it was an emergency because we we had to either get them placement to these free countries, or they would get sent back to China.
19:38
So that was kind of the role Cindy and I played.
19:40
We we did a our darnest to stop any of those deportations from happening.
19:45
And we were able to, just because of our the nature of our background and and and a little bit of the color of our skin, to be perfectly honest, um uh we were able to to help in that respect on this underground railroad.
19:58
And this is where I first uh
20:01
So I encountered people who had had suffered unbelievable realities.
20:04
I mean, there's a whole actually in I Shao Fu in the book.
20:08
I talk about her, this amazing woman.
20:10
She was the first uh refugee, Falun Gong refugee accepted to the U.S.
20:15
I mean, she was like a, you know, kind of a senior sales manager and uh in a kind of mid-sized regional company, kind of like uh, you know, model citizen, all this kind of stuff.
20:25
But then when they made the Falun Gong illegal, she became a traitor immediately, and they arrested her, they tortured her to the point of paralysis, right?
20:34
And like and she ended up escaping because she actually got better, but she was able to not move.
20:40
And the guards that just kind of had forgotten that she could believe that she couldn't move because she she appeared paralyzed and she was actually able to escape and ultimately find this railroad.
20:50
But like just amazing stories, right?
20:53
Individual stories about people uh overcoming, you know, unbelievable odds.
21:00
And and then I saw firsthand how the Chinese were able to, you know, push what's called transnational repression, push their persecution out through into places like Thailand and other countries in the region where I, again, lots of stories, some of them aren't in the book uh either.
21:18
At this point, I had actually faced off with a Chinese diplomat.
21:21
I was working on the NGO side of the of the UN at the Human Rights Commission in Geneva in 2005.
21:27
And at that point, we had become kind of marked as people that that were not pro-CCP, pro-Chinese communist party.
21:35
So that you know caused some trouble problems for us, but it also made it so we couldn't really travel into the country uh because uh for obvious reasons, right?
21:44
So I think Hong Kong uh is is kind of where I were as well.
21:49
I got to see a lot of a lot of this sort of dynamic that I was just describing.
21:54
You know, this persecution of the Feeling Gong started in around 1999, but you talk about in great details about that in the book about where you think it started.
22:05
But it was by 2005, it was discovered in just one of 400 hospitals that were performing um organ champ transplants in China, and more surgeries were being performed than could reasonably be the sum of all execution of criminals, which is how they sell this.
22:24
You know, we're just these people were going to be executed anyway, so we will harvest their organs.
22:28
And that was the first time that this really kind of started to come out, at least in the mainstream.
22:33
I remember that, you know, that we're talking about that.
22:36
But how pervasive is this problem of how many people are being killed for and alive sometimes.
22:43
Their organs are harvest when they're not, they're not, they haven't even killed them.
22:46
They're still alive.
22:47
How really pervasive is this problem?
22:50
Well, let me just maybe define it and explain why this particular system is unique and and and a human rights violation that we would call an atrocity or a crime against humanity that's sort of beyond your typical really horrible black market organ industry that you see in places around the world.
23:10
So you kind of you need a state actor.
23:13
You need someone who a group that can push massive coercive power through a population, right?
23:20
And they also have to be able to um to dehumanize a group of people to have so much propaganda power, hold so much media and propaganda resources to basically be able to demonize a large group of people.
23:33
This is what happened to Xiao Fu.
23:36
I mentioned she was a model citizen one day, the next day, the loudspeaker is a blaring that she's a traitor and that she's evil, right?
23:44
And everyone is sort of, oh my God, what's happening, right?
23:46
And they have to kind of get in line.
23:48
So this is um, you have to be able to push that, push that propaganda through the system.
23:54
I heard there were 500,000 individual pieces of that propaganda that went out in that first year.
23:59
And or I think that was the calculation that was that was made by one group.
24:03
And and then you have to be able to incarcerate to have the power to incarcerate a large group of people, okay?
24:09
And so say a million or two million, it's non-clear again.
24:12
It's kind of a state secret, right?
24:13
But if you can do all that, then you have a unique situation.
24:17
And where I also theorize in the book where I think it started exactly.
24:22
But basically, they started blood typing, tissue typing, organ scanning people.
24:28
And now, right, someone like me or someone who has maybe looser morals than I do, okay, could read an ad, and there were actually ads online, and we had these archived, right?
24:40
That said, in two weeks, if you have the right amount of money, say 200,000, you can get a new heart in two weeks.
24:49
In two weeks scheduled.
24:51
So we know exactly when that operation's gonna happen, which means you they you know when that person will be dead because you don't survive having a heart extracted from you as a so-called donor.
25:05
The only way that can happen, right, is that there's a database of all these blood types, tissue types, and organ scans.
25:13
And these people are already incarcerated, prisoners of conscience, ready to be killed to order the moment the match is made and the money is paid, and then they're shipped and killed.
25:24
And that's why the book is called killed to order, because that's what happened.
25:28
And the scale, I mean, it's horrible.
25:31
But basically, at in 2000, there was this very low level of of some maybe experimental organ transplantation, maybe some super elites were getting it.
25:42
But the moment the Falangong persecution begins and they demonize that and incarcerate, let's say, you know, millions, okay, we don't know the exact number, it grows geometrically.
25:52
They build thousands of transplant hospitals, okay?
25:56
And that it kind of plateaus a bit at 2005 and grows a bit more.
26:00
And then by the early 2000s, we're looking at 60 to 90,000 transplants per year.
26:08
To frame that, right?
26:09
The US broke a record on transplants, I believe, last year, 40,000.
26:14
That's what that was the number.
26:15
And here we're looking at 60 to 60 is the low end estimate.
26:19
It's very hard to estimate, right?
26:20
I could explain how that estimation is done.
26:23
Some of the best estimation was done by a man named Ethan Gutman, who's one of the heroes of the, you know, developing the research base around all this talk, this uh material.
26:33
But um, so that's the scale.
26:35
Um, we estimate it's about a nine billion dollar a year industry.
26:41
Um, and as of today, there's no evidence that this these numbers have dropped off.
26:48
Now, the one of the really horrifying things is that hold that thought right there, uh, Jan, because we need to take a short break from our to hear from our sponsors right now at this point in time, but hold that.
26:59
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Welcome back, everybody.
33:23
Today's conversation is with Jan Yehelik.
33:25
A talk uh to talk about his book, Kill to Order.
33:29
China's organ harvesting industry with the true nature of America's biggest adversary, and a look at China's state-sanctioned harvesting of organs from prisoners of conscience.
33:40
Let me tell you a little bit more about Jan.
33:42
He is the senior editor from Epoch Times and the host of the great show, American Thought Leaders.
33:47
And if you haven't watched it, listen to it, and you're not a subscriber, D Pak Times, you are missing it.
33:53
You need to be there.
33:54
Jan's career has spanned academia, international human rights work.
33:58
And now for almost two decades, he has been a prominent figure in the media.
34:03
He has interviewed nearly a thousand thought leaders on camera and specializes in long form discussions that challenge the grand narratives of our time.
34:12
And he's also an award-winning documentary filmmaker.
34:16
Jan, it is just such a pleasure here to talk to you about this really dicey topic that we're talking about from your book, Kill to Order.
34:24
And you say that the CCP in your book, you say that it is you've they created an unwritten rule that all Falun Gong deaths in custody should be recorded as suicides, giving the government a license to kill.
34:40
Can you say what sort of outside political forces are in place to try to reverse this?
34:48
Wow.
34:48
Um, that is a very difficult question to answer because I you know the there has not been a ton of incredibly effective efforts to try to stop this Felangong persecution from outside governments.
35:07
I mean, to be perfectly frank, there has been some great work uh with groups like the Congressional Executive Commission on China, for example, is a congressional body that has done good work.
35:19
Okay, that's a that's a unfortunately a rare exception.
35:22
There's been useurf U.S.
35:23
Commission on International Religious Freedom has done very good work.
35:27
There's a body uh um Freedom House has done amazing reports on freedom of uh uh religion in China and so forth, um, which I've really appreciated.
35:37
But um, in terms of like actual efforts like that would have teeth to help stop the persecution of Felangong practitioners in China.
35:49
I I have not seen much in that vein aside from resolutions uh that where people say this is horrible or even about the oral forced organ harvesting, this is horrible.
36:00
And in fact, in the book, I I make some suggestions about how we could actually do some things not in that aren't even that difficult to do to at least stop our own complicity in some of this uh as Americans or Canadians, and also uh, and also actually kind of reduce the volume a bit.
36:19
I think there's ways to do that.
36:21
I don't know if we could completely stop it, but but we could try.
36:24
We could and it's not very hard, and it's not even like it's not a bit a heavy lift, like we don't have to restructure, you know, entire bureaucracies or something like that.
36:35
But before I finish, I just want to add one more thing.
36:38
I was just talking before the break about how um, you know, we don't believe the numbers have dropped in it in any significant matter from that 60 to 90,000 transplants a year, because we would we would see that in basically hospital bed use and other type.
36:55
There's a whole bunch of ways that we are able to kind of create these estimates, which are very hard to do, obviously, in the first place.
37:03
Um, what happened was that since no one really did much for 14 or 15 years, so by 2015, the Chinese regime picked another group.
37:14
So they started on the Felongong.
37:16
They've spent 14, 15 years with Falan Gong being the primary kind of pool for this crime against humanity.
37:23
And then they said, well, no one's really done anything.
37:27
I mean, I'm I'm kind of inferring here and say, well, let's dehumanize another group of people, the Uyghurs in the Northwest in a million military-controlled isolated region, right?
37:37
Who are also happen to be Muslim and you know, and look different.
37:42
So it's kind of easy to dehumanize a group of people that are different in so many ways.
37:47
And then, and then they incarcerated a million of them or more.
37:50
And we uh believe they started working on them.
37:54
And in fact, Ethan Guttman, who I mentioned earlier, is actually working on a book which will come out fairly soon called the Xinjiang procedure.
38:01
He originally wrote a book called The Slaughter, basically documenting that reality around the Falun Gong.
38:07
Today he's almost finished a book titled The Sl the Xinjiang Procedure, which looks at how this whole operation works on the Uyghurs now.
38:15
And he's even documented one example at least, where there is a prison or uh some sort of concentration camp, a hospital, and a crematorium, kind of all side by side, sitting to get built, you know, presumably to facilitate this whole horrible process.
38:32
Um, so and I'm worried, and I just want to add this too.
38:36
I'm watching right now, and I was just talking with Bob Fu on the phone.
38:39
I'm gonna have him on my show soon.
38:41
Bob runs uh very important ministry in Midland, Texas, um, and he supports a lot of Chinese Christians.
38:48
Okay.
38:49
Um, there's been this increase in Christian house church Christian persecution with the Zion Church leaders being all wrapped up.
38:56
There's still many of them are still incarcerated.
38:58
In fact, I just had um uh his daughter on the show, Grace Jean, who is it who's in America about this, all this issue, and they're starting to control Catholic clergy.
39:10
Um, and I'm seeing an increase in dehumanizing rhetoric.
39:14
The mention I the reason I mentioned Bob is I talked to him on the phone today, and I said, listen, are you seeing this too?
39:19
Are you seeing an increase in dehuman because this the dehumanizing rhetoric as it's being rolled out?
39:26
That's always kind of a prerequisite to atrocity.
39:30
Because again, like most people, the reason why that is always kind of a necessary part of these crimes against humanity level type things is that most people aren't psychopaths.
39:41
Most people are not ready to harm their hella fellow man casually.
39:44
But if you can kind of trick them into believing that they're lesser than or they're evil or something, right?
39:50
Then it's a lot more palatable.
39:53
It's uh it's because it's a weird uh uh thing in our psyche.
39:57
And he told me, yeah, Jan, actually, I am seeing.
40:00
This, the same thing you're seeing.
40:01
So I'm actually concerned that the Christians may be the next group, right?
40:07
Like, why not?
40:08
What's what's stopping that?
40:09
What have we done?
40:10
What has anybody said in it that with had teeth?
40:14
What has what policy has anyone implemented that has teeth thus far to actually try to help stop this?
40:19
And I the answer is not really much at all over 26 years, but we have a chance to do that now.
40:26
You know, back in 2008, I was the medical director of uh of a small um integrative health hospital in in Mexico.
40:34
And that was about the time that the medical tourism industry was getting started, that people could go overseas to for cancer treatments and breast augmentations and all kinds of different surgeries.
40:45
And in the um in the forward of your book of Kill the Order, written by a highly credentialed Dr.
40:52
Joseph Varan from Texas, he describes that the Chinese medical system has created money by transplant tourism.
41:00
And just the the term of that is just so appalling.
41:04
And he describes how physicians involved with organ harvesting have become indistinguishable from executioners.
41:11
How do you think that hard evidence should resonate with American physicians and the practice of medicine here?
41:18
And the an extension to that, you know, all the things that have started happening in Canada about the maid, you know, medical assisted, you know, independent suicides.
41:27
And there was just an article in the paper today talking about a woman who was actually killed against her will.
41:33
And is this uh going to roll over into other countries?
41:37
Should other countries such as Canada and places be examined for these same sort of atrocities of transplant tourism.
41:46
Well, this is the horrible thing.
41:47
We had this idea of this narrative, right?
41:50
The narrative was that we're gonna change China, we're a democracy, we're if we pump enough cash in there, it's gonna become a South Korea or a Taiwan, we're gonna change them, right?
42:01
It was a very convenient narrative for people who are looking to make a lot of money there and we're making partnerships and so forth, right?
42:07
Um, so that that that's kind of where we started.
42:10
The problem is when you create this engagement, right?
42:14
Um it does facilitate change.
42:17
It does facilitate uh uh, I guess an evolution of thinking.
42:22
But what happened was it wasn't us actually changing people towards a more uh liberal and open society.
42:29
It actually happened in the other direction.
42:31
Okay.
42:32
And so the effect was, and I actually wrote about this in an op-ed in the Baltimore Sun a couple of months ago, is you know, we've had in the last in 2025, we had two transplant systems that were decertified by HHS because they are violating the dead donor rule systemically, okay.
42:48
And and how does that happen?
42:50
Well, it just means that we've become very, very casual about who we allow to be used as an organ donor.
42:59
And what's the lesson?
43:00
Well, in communist China, essentially everybody would meet with possible some very few exceptions is someone that's being, you know, dead donor rule violated, right?
43:11
And basically murdered for for an organ.
43:14
And that that has rubbed off on us, right?
43:16
So the answer is um, you know, we we can't cooperate with a system that does these kinds of things.
43:26
And I think that the simplest, most obvious thing that we can do, and there's various, and I talk in the book extensively about various ways we could do that right off the bat without a lot of complication, is just not participate in a system.
43:39
We we we've trained so many of these surgeons.
43:42
We don't need to train Chinese surgeons until they can demonstrate unequivocally with an independent inquiry that they are no longer killing people for organs, okay?
43:52
And similarly, we don't need to fund research with you know, so transplant component uh by through NIH or other, which which which some of this exists today, right?
44:04
And you know, I'm we're we're kind of in the process of trying to put together to the best of our knowledge how much of this is there.
44:11
Um we're digging, but that's actually a bit difficult to get at some of this information.
44:16
So this is something, you know, maybe I can I know you have a lot of medical practitioners that watch your show that participate.
44:22
Maybe there are people who can help and gather some of this uh information, and so that we can actually present it in a comprehensive report to HHS to Congress and just say, look, here's the here's the range of ways in which we have, and we know already that we supply solutions and technologies, curiously, right?
44:41
They manufacture many things over there, but a lot of the things they use for transplantation come from Europe and the US, as it turns out, as I even learned only for the first time in the last few years.
44:51
You're always learning new things, right?
44:53
In in this system.
44:54
So there's all sorts of ways we can sort of, you know, stop our own complicity as a starting point.
45:00
That's the easiest part.
45:02
But I also feel there's ways that we can actually help reduce that volume substantively.
45:07
Uh I don't know if we can completely stop it, but if we make an effort and we, you know, sort of make it a point and we call it out for what it is.
45:16
Uh I think there's all sorts of ways that we can have a substantive effort impact on saving some lives.
45:22
You know, in America, you were talking about the I didn't know that about those uh sites that have been decredentialed, but there's actual in-writing plans to redefine the definition of death, because some people that in in America who they have sent to do organ transplant, they weren't dead.
45:39
And the nurses in the in the operating room noticed that you know, a finger moved or the eyeball eyelid fleshed or something like that when they started to cut them over to the extract the organs.
45:49
So this is, I believe, much more extensive.
45:52
Um, you know, you're uncovering all of this and really exposing it in writing of what's happening in China.
45:58
Uh, I think it's a lot broader than what we might know.
46:01
I mean, there was a lot of things that we we learned when we went into Ukraine about what they were doing with organ harvesting and things with with prisoners and and things there, you know, after hearing your distorbing expose about these things, and you've alluded to it a couple of times here, but what concrete steps can Congress and Trump take right now that would help to expose and halt this organ trade.
46:26
Well, so at the administration level, I think there's just all kind of all cooperation and any form with transplantation stops unless, you know, until there's demonstrated change.
46:39
And this is difficult because there's a massive bureaucracy system that's been created that's been running for 26 years doing this at an industrial scale, right?
46:49
So, you know, this we need to have some pretty strong evidence to see that that that system is being dismantled in some way, right?
46:56
To change our own policies.
46:58
That would be what I would say.
46:59
But also at the congressional level, there's actually, you know, this is what's really kind of exciting to me, both at the state house and Senate level and at the federal level.
47:10
Um, there's been an unusual level of interest in this issue in the last few years.
47:15
Perhaps it's because there's actually a survivor who came out publicly, and I of course I talk about him, Cheng Pei Ming.
47:23
It's a miracle that there's a survivor.
47:25
Um, I encourage you to read the book.
47:27
By the way, you can get the book at killed to order.com.
47:30
Um, you know, I have I have a uh physical the physical first physical copy came to me on Friday.
47:35
It comes out March 17th.
47:36
There aren't that many around yet, but I'm, you know, it's kind of surreal almost to have it in my hands, right?
47:43
Uh, but but there's actually multiple pieces of legislation.
47:47
Two have passed the House at the federal level near unanimously.
47:52
One is called the Falun Gong Protection Act.
47:55
And by the way, the Falan Gong Protection Act doesn't just protect Felon Gong, it just kind of names them as a major group this way that was the subject of this organ harvesting.
48:04
But what it does is it sanctions individuals that are involved in this.
48:08
It creates there's a reporting element.
48:11
It's not a very complicated or expensive piece of legislation, but it kind of draws the line and it says people involved in this, we're not gonna let them, you know, basically participate in the US system.
48:22
And right.
48:23
And so that's that's great.
48:24
That there's there's a lot of, you know, China is uh a bit of a chaotic place right now, increasingly so.
48:32
Um there's every Chinese super lead has an exit strategy to somewhere, many of them are to America.
48:38
They're gonna think a lot more about whether they want to keep participating in the system if they know that they're gonna get hit with hard sanctions from the US if they are known to have participated.
48:48
So I expect a whole bunch of people will exit participating in it just from that.
48:53
Um, there's another piece of legislation called the Stop Forced Organ Harvesting Act, a bit broader, not just focused on China, but but identifying China as a specific uh uh problem.
49:04
And likewise, um, you know, again, I'm not gonna go into all the details, but but an excellent piece of legislation that would help at the in part in a similar way.
49:14
Um, so that's at the federal level.
49:16
There's a third piece of legislation, which what it does is it stops Medicare, Medicaid, and insurance for paying for transplant China transplants at at the federal level.
49:27
That's Congressman Dunn.
49:28
He's actually retiring this year.
49:30
It's in committee.
49:31
Perhaps it'll get out of committee, perhaps it'll pass the House.
49:34
But there's two pieces that are just waiting for the Senate to look at.
49:38
And I think that the Senate would probably pretty quickly say, you know, uh, this is this is very reasonable.
49:45
This is the least partisan issue you can possibly imagine, you know, basically challenge an obvious crime against humanity, right?
49:54
Like, and and even if you don't believe it's happening, then you, you know, then the legislation won't do anything.
50:00
Might as well pass it anyway.
50:01
You see what I'm saying?
50:02
So it's like it's kind of no-brainer legislation.
50:05
But even at the state level, Dr.
50:06
Tenpenny, there's been six states out of 50 now that starting in 2022 or 2021 that have passed legislation similar to this, what's called the Block Act, prevent payments from Medicare from insurance at the state level for being used for China transplants and related items.
50:25
So there's so there's activity for the first time in the last few years.
50:28
I'm hopeful.
50:30
Well, that's really great.
50:31
You know, you mentioned in the book several times that you've been doing this for over 20 years and been a hard time, hard getting people interested in it because it's such a hard and heinous topic for people to talk about.
50:44
It's just so disgusting.
50:45
But I think now that a lot of disgusting things have become pretty mainstream in our in our vernacular, talking about pedophilia and human trafficking and things that have been so abhorrent, what they found with childhood harvesting in some of the Ukraine places.
51:01
And it's, you know, it's come into our psyche and into our conversation now.
51:06
Unfortunately, because it's so disgusting that, but it is there.
51:10
And I think that that gives uh a platform for people to be able to talk about this organ harvesting and how despicable it is and why we need to stop it.
51:19
And in fact, in the last part of your book, you actually have an appendix, and you alluded to this a little bit in our conversation about actions that everyone can take to get this notification out.
51:30
Why don't you elaborate elaborate on that a little bit?
51:34
Well, you know, something that's really exciting in a way, right?
51:37
We have these rotary clubs all over the world, all over the world, but certainly all over America.
51:43
I first encountered them when I was doing these international youth programs.
51:46
There's always they're always super helpful people in rotary.
51:49
Okay, you always know you can count on rotary, right?
51:52
So the amazing thing is there's actually an end-forced organ harvesting rotary club, like dedicated to this issue that it's called a satellite club.
52:01
Typically, they're local clubs, but this one, you know, the there were a few people from local clubs that decided this is an or important issue that's important enough.
52:10
And they work with rotary clubs all over America and all over the world to basically expose this stuff by screening excellent films.
52:18
There's a film, actually, I just interviewed the director of one of them not too long ago on American Thought Leaders, Raymond, um, uh called State Organs.
52:27
It all it won uh it was an Oscar contender from Canada on this issue.
52:30
It's a powerful, powerful film.
52:32
And what these guys do is they set up screenings, they get books into libraries.
52:36
You know, this is grassroots, local level people who are like genuinely wanting to make a difference in their local communities, tend to go to rotary.
52:44
So I think this is it's just an exciting little structure.
52:47
And it's actually not hard to participate in rotary these days, where wherever you are.
52:52
I think once upon a time you had to be some kind of business leader or something.
52:55
No, it's been quite democratized now.
52:58
And if you're interested, these clubs exist and they want to talk to you.
53:02
In fact, you know, there's someone here in the in the DC area as we're speaking right now, who is uh very uh extremely active.
53:11
I think she's about to become a chapter president and is pushing this issue hard through her club and this uh related uh end forced organ harvesting satellite club.
53:20
And I think that or that uh Rotary Club International.
53:23
I mean, it's all over the world, it's just not here.
53:26
That's right.
53:26
Well, in the left in fact, in fact, it's in Taiwan as it would happen that they're having their international meetings.
53:32
I just learned that.
53:33
Yeah, yeah.
53:34
Well, we've got about two minutes left, Jan.
53:37
And this has been such an interesting conversation.
53:39
I wish that we could go on much longer.
53:41
But in your book, Kill to Order, China's organ harvesting industry and the true nature of America's biggest adversary.
53:49
Uh, tell us again where's the best place to get the book and tell us what your major takeaway is from this book.
53:54
You want our audience to know today.
53:57
The the big thing.
53:58
So again, here's the book, highly recommended killed to order.com.
54:03
Recommended, very highly recommended.
54:05
Killed to order.com.
54:07
No, thank you.
54:07
I know you told me earlier how read it.
54:09
I was so thrilled that you that you liked it so much.
54:12
But but really, it's I think it's a tool, right?
54:15
And it a big part of the book is helping understand how communism works.
54:19
And just on this point of the Epstein files, making us realize the darkness in our own society.
54:24
This is all true, and we need to deal with it, okay.
54:28
But I think it's also important to know that understand that the best thing, the most powerful tool the communists have is propaganda.
54:35
And right now they're busy trying to convince us that our society is horrible, that their society is somehow better.
54:41
But and I'm trying to say, listen, you don't think that way.
54:44
We can change things here.
54:46
We can actually make a difference here.
54:48
There, that nobody has that ability because there's an iron fist regime that does this kind of thing for 26 years for massive profit and elite longevity, and no one can do anything about it in there, right, until the system crumbles from within, which it always does.
55:03
Here, it very much still is a democratic system.
55:07
And we've we're we're affecting change here.
55:09
We and we need to believe we can and do that action ourselves.
55:14
And that's that's essentially, you know, that's that's why we're that's the constitutional republic that we're in here, right?
55:20
And that we can affect our own.
55:22
This is my last like moment here, right?
55:24
De Tocaville, uh uh in Democracy or America, he what he loved when he said makes America great is people getting together around issues that matter and basically creating uh a structure which we could call civil society and getting the job done around that issue.
55:40
That's the best thing about America.
55:42
That's what he saw.
55:43
That's what he has how he foretold that America would be incredibly effective.
55:47
And I still think it is, and we can still do exactly that.
55:50
So that's what I encourage.
55:51
And kiltsorder.com, get the book.
55:54
Get the book because I'm telling you it's riveting.
55:57
Because even though he, you know, Jan talks about these really uh abhorrent sort of things.
56:02
It's not written like bloody, gory, you know, it's not like it's not a gore book, it's a historical and a very well-written thought-out book to bring attention to a very important topic.
56:13
So, Jan, I want to thank you so much for being part of our show today.
56:16
I'm I'm sure that many people are going to get this book and will follow some of your instructions and that you leave at the end of the book.
56:23
So I want to close out, want to thank all of our listeners for being here today.
56:26
I want to close out with one of my favorite verses from the Bible I close all my podcasts with, whether they are live or pre-recorded, which is Romans 12, 12.
56:35
Rejoice in hope, be patient in trouble, and be persistent in prayer.
56:38
Well, thank you everybody for being here today.
56:41
We will see you tomorrow or the next time on AmericaOut Loud.news, iHeartRadio are one of the 10 penny uh platforms that you can watch this listen and share it with others.
56:50
Have a great rest of your day, everybody.
56:52
Goodbye and God bless.