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The Flash (2023) · May The Review Be With You

0:00
Not to be ironic or whatever, but like they're trying to like go through
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time and like just like jump to a version of their universe that is like,
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uh, set up and ready to go. That's good. A version
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of their universe that's good. I can't exactly that joke. They're just trying
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to go to a version of the universe that's good. Well, guess what.
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It doesn't exist on any timeline. The dc EU multiverse is trash,
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olive crash, absolute trash. Hello and welcome to May the Review be with
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You, with Nick and Joe. I'm Joe, I'm Nick, and today
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we are reviewing The Flash, the movie, the twenty twenty three movie starring
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Ezra Miller and directed by Andy Muschetti. Muschetti who's directed the IT duology,
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which, like I actually had to look that up because I did not remember
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that. That blows my mind for a few reasons that we'll get into later.
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This movie. We've been talking about this movie, or what seems like
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a long time. Actually we can confirm that. Let's go ahead and pull
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the flash and reverse time to see what we said one week ago before watching
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The Flash. Hello and welcome to May the Review be with you with Nick
1:37
and Joe Joe, and we're coming to you from the past and just to
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prove it. I don't know how you prove it, But like I don't
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know what's going on in the news right now. Donald Trump has just arraigned
1:47
in Miami. Anything else, Elon Musk something, Yeah, you know Twitter,
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definitely Elon Musk something. That's how you know it's the past. So
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yeah, we're we're giving our our reactions to the Flash before we see it.
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We want to do a little bit of contrast comparison. I'm mostly doing
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this because I'm going into this movie rather hopeful. But Nick, on the
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other hand, Nick, You've got some strong opinions. How do you think
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the Flash is gonna be This is gonna suck. This movie's gonna suck.
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This is not gonna be good. There is no way that this movie is
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good at all. And the whole Azra millerd thing, like, I just
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it's DC. It's not gonna be good. There's no possible way it's gonna
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be good. My expectations are so low that you would think that I would
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walk out of the theater like pleasantly surprised. But I don't even think that's
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possible. All right, we're back. Yeah, that was fairly consistent with
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where we are now. I believe you are now on the other side of
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the flash. Oh. Fortunately I own well one so many feelings because I
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love being right. Who doesn't. But I was unfortunately way more right than
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I wanted to be. And I found out how right I was about ten
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minutes into the film during the infamous baby scene. And that's about ten minutes
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in or something. And when you find out that you're really right about a
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superhero movie that's going to really suck ten minutes in and you can't walk out
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because you're with three other of your best friends who are in town visiting you,
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you really get a little upset at how right you were because I had
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to sit there for two more hours and continue to watch an absolutely miserable bill.
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So I have conflicting feelings on how I feel I was unfortunately super right
4:00
about it being super terrible. I'm gonna get into how I feel about this
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movie, but like, I feel like there were two camps that I've seen
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online for this movie, and you were either in the camp of you agreed
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with what James Gunn said, which was this movie was the best I love
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this movie, or you were in the camp of this is the absolute worst
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movie I've ever seen in my life, And I feel like there aren't enough
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people for the camp that I feel I'm in, which is it's okay?
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I I really I don't know. I honestly didn't think it was that bad.
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The amount of hate that I've seen online like truly perplexes me. But
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the amount of love that I've seen online for this movie also truly perplexes me,
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because, like, don't get me wrong, like I am in the
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opinion of I don't think this is a bad movie, but it's got problems.
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It's got issues that are hard, that are hard to overlook. Nick,
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I do want to ask you this question before we like dig into anything.
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Though you're not a big fan of the DCU in general, just should
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have been, But like, where do you put this movie as far as
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like the worst DCEU properties. That's such a tough question. So I feel
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like you you have the same like emotional response to that as if I asked
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you your favorite Marvel films. So that's tough. I gotta I gotta think
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definitely not gonna go rewatch those movies to give you a to try to figure
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out where this goes. It's just at the bottom, but the whole DCEU
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is at the bottom. The first ten things on the list are just empty
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spaces of things I'd rather do besides watch a DCEU movie. I still have
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to do like a fifteen seconds of this film. Oh my god, that's
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so true. Okay, I'm gonna do this one thing. You're gonna react,
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and then we're gonna do that. Okay, Okay. My top three
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favorite DCEU movies of all time Wonder Woman, Just Sleep This Night, Snider
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Cut Flash. Yeah, well you're an idiot. So the box office numbers
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speak for themselves. Where where's it actually with the box office? I don't
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know. I think like Monday it was a fifty five million or something.
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It was absolutely it was awful. The Trocyah actually, yeah, considering how
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much they were trying to pump that movie. Yeah, that is pretty bad.
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They were talking like the Batman numbers or something. It's like the Batman
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made like one hundred and fifty million plus on opening weekend. You know,
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Spider Man's got half a billion right now. Yeah, Spider Man is freaking
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incredible. I wish that it would have been able to review it with you,
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but I was on vacation. That is one of the best superhero frims
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I've ever seen. Across the Spider Verse. I can't believe. I can't
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believe how much better that was then the first one, and the first one
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was fantastic. Do you think that Do you think that this movie suffered at
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all that it had to like that it had to like follow the Spider Man
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because I watched Across the Spider Verse three days before where I watched The Flash.
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Oh god, brutal, I mean, and there's no comparison, like
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the Flash is absolutely terrible. It's just like, I mean, I will
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agree with this. I think it is like what am I watching? Yeah,
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you know, it is a night and day experience. As far as
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like trying to do an emotional multiverse story, you know, I do agree
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with that. But anyway, let's get into it. Nick. As you
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pointed out, you've got fifteen seconds to sum up this movie that you hate,
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so I'm really eager to hear. How many details did you get correct
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on this? You ready? Yeah? Well I wasn't even gonna try,
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But now I am because you're excited about So here we go hit me three
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two one. The Flash goes back in time to save his mother and consequentially
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meets himself, who doesn't have his powers yet. First Flash loses his powers,
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Second Flash gets his powers. They have to figure out how to get
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back. They meet dood What the fuck? And I don't even care because
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this movie sucked one zero. I had two seconds decided no, I don't
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care. I had I had to finish my point. I had to get
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I don't care because the movie sucked like that's I had to end on that
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because truth. All right, If I'm gonna grade that though, I'm gonna
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be honest with you, like CLI like it was funny, it was funny,
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not my bare heart wasn't your heart wasn't in it. We're gonna give
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you a C minus for that one because I heard no mentions of dark Berry
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and very little Batman if any. Yeah, I know, I'm just still
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mad about wasting twenty dollars and having to sit through the whole film. But
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we are going to talk about the whole movie, yes, including the parts
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that were cool, because there were some cool parts. Let's start with the
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part that I think I think we're automatically gonna have a disagreement on the beginning,
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so I'm gonna be honest. I so the baby scene I don't love,
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but I don't think I hated it either, and we'll get into that
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in a second. But the scene that I like automatically, I was like,
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WHOA, maybe this movie does have some potential here. Yeah, was
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when Barry is in Central City and he gets the call from Alfred that there
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is a problem in Gotham and we go from the bathroom of this cafe sprinting
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across the country following Barry. That was one of my favorite speedster scenes in
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all of cinema. Like, that's a top three speedster cinema moment for me.
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That was a really awesome opening shot. I like, I thought that
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the whole movie was gonna be like that, and I honestly like that's actually
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some points off the movie for me is that, like they never did anything
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like that again. Unfortunately. The opening scene was really cool. Obviously Alfred
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and like I've been a fan of Ben affleckx Batman, Like I think he
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plays Bruce Rayne really cool. I think they have a lot of similarities,
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like h and so it was cool that that's kind of how it starts with
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like this crisis thing going on, and that speechter scene was like pretty it
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was pretty cool. It was Okay. I don't know if I ever like
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settled into Ezra and like him being like I know we've seen him as a
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flash before, but there was just something about his performance that I just did
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not settle into. Like a lot of people agree with us, it just
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did. He just did not have it, like and I don't know if
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it's because he had to played two different versions of Arry or what, but
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like he just did not have it. And so I was constantly like thrown
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in and out of being into the movie partly because of his performance, which
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is sad to say because I think there's other films he's been really good in
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Perkson being a Wallflower, but yeah, like top of the lists for sure.
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But yeah, that open scene was really cool and there was some hope
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there, Like right before the baby scene, it was like, okay,
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this is like I had two thoughts. I was like, this is starting
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so chaotic, and there's like they're not like it. I just didn't expect
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it to start with chaos like that, and I was like what the hell
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is going on? Like this is like I don't know if I was like
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I think this is cool, but I'm also like I don't know. And
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then like, of course the baby scene comes, which then was like,
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Okay, it's not cool. It's like this is ridiculous. Like before we
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even start saving the babies, he goes for the vending machine. You know,
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it's is just like it's probably supposed to be funny, and I think
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I laughed, but I was also just like, what the fuck is happening,
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Like this is ridiculous. You've got twelve babies to spend it in the
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air, And I think the issue for me was like they went so big
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with that at the beginning, and the CGI really just wasn't there, and
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like I didn't love how they like oriented the whole like speed force thing,
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Like I just didn't love the CGI of like when he's in the speed force
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and he's like moving so fast at everything slow. I just didn't love how
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they showed any of that. And I didn't love it in the first ten
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minutes it and it didn't look great. And then it's fucking babies. It's
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just like what are they doing? Like when the scene started, I was
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like, even, like, regardless if these babies live or die, this
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is an awful way to start a movie like babies, like pick something else,
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like if it was all puppies, it might have been more might might
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have been more digestible if it was all puppies. You know, I want
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to back up for a second, because you said something that actually really appreciate
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in talking about the CGI, you specifically said I didn't love it. And
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the reason why I love that phrasing, Nick, is because in the discourse
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online about that scene, people are saying that the CGI of this movie is
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absolute garbage, which I have a disagreement about that. I don't think that
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the CGI was garbage because there are other moments of this movie, like the
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lightning surrounding the flash, both flashes, that looks amazing. It looks absolutely
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incredible. So I don't think that the CGI is trashed throughout the movie.
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I think that what you referred to with the babies and in the Speed Force,
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I think they made an aesthetic choice. And actually Matchette has like confirmed
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this. They made an aesthetic choice to like make things look weird, like
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look a little off. From Barry's point of view while he's like using his
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speed Force powers, right, and that's why like they look the way they
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do. But I agree with you. I don't think it's bad CGI,
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but that that doesn't mean that the aesthetic choice that you made was a good
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one, because I get what you might have been going for, but man,
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does it not look good and does it take you out of the movie.
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I do agree with that, And I think another problem for me is
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that like the Flash TV show on CW, I actually really enjoyed like and
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most also like ended this year actually strangely enough, but both like come to
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an end this year, and I haven't seen the full thing. I I
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I pretty much like never get past the Sabotar season because that's like such a
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great season, and I think there's one more that I watched. I really
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like how they operate the speed stuff, like there it looks like you know,
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and and when they're in the speed Force they look different. They're more
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cartoony, and they're like but the way that the show does it really fits
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it and it works, and and they kind of like maybe try to do
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something like this with the movie, and they really like either should have went
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for it completely or like didn't do it at all, and it kind of
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looks like they try to like esthetically go halfway, and it was just like,
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what the fuck? Also, like as far as I mean, as
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far as doing that scene goes, because like that scene like with the babies,
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that that that kind of like speedster scene that's been listed the time in
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a bottle scene referencing when Quicksilver does it for the first time in cinema in
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Days of Future Past, right, and like we all agree that seems great,
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you know, and they try to do it again in what is it
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Age of Apocalypse? No, it's just apocalypse, right, X Men Apocalypse?
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Yeah, yeah, uh, they tried to do it again an X
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Men Apocalypse and like it's it's still good and like at times like funnier,
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but like they tried to like up the ante and it's like, well,
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you you're going to the same ranch again for the same cattle, right,
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Like we get it. And like since then, it feels like anytime you
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have a speedster, well you got to do the time in the bottle scene,
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which at this point I just kind of find annoying. Didn't Eternals do
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a time in a bottle scene? I don't think they actually didn't, and
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that was something about Eternals that I loved it. We just got a fast
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speedster. Anyway back to time in the bottle scene real quick. Just on
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a final note, I totally get why people were into the scene. Going
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with babies was super extreme, and honestly, I feel like it was just
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them trying to one up the time of the bottle scene because I guess babies
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was the answer to that. I don't agree with this choice for reasons that
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you've already explained. It didn't bother me as much as other people, maybe
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because like I sort of saw it coming only because like someone ruined the baby
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in a microwave scene for me, so like as soon as the baby showed
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up, I was like, Okay, here comes the thing with the microwave.
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Weird choice to put a baby in a microwave. Weird choice. Moving
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on. So, I mean, this movie kind of takes us on the
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path of familiarity, at least if you're familiar with Flash from the show in
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which his dad's been framed for murder of his mother, and I love that
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they actually do not ever reveal who murdered Nora. Allen thought that was a
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neat creative choice leaves the door open later. I doubt that we're opening that
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door, but I thought that was a neat creative choice. Anyway, we
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meet Barry's dad, we get the classic goal of your life. Barry's very
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upset as he relives the day that his mom is murdered and then accidentally uses
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the speed Force to travel back in time. And this is what you were
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talking about before, about entering the speed Force in whatever. I think they
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call it a chronosphere. I don't know that one's new to me. And
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we get this really your cgi of all these people, because you gotta like
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the idea of it. Yeah, I liked the idea of it. And
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and I think during that first scene towards the end of it, you see
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the first glimpse of like a force ghost or whatever, right which you know,
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we know who that turns out to be. We can talk about that
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later. But I was gonna take this into the next scene where he's talking
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to Bruce. But I just realized that we didn't talk about what I'm sure
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was probably actually, from what I'm gathering, probably your favorite scene or favorite
17:30
stuff of the movie, which was watching. Uh, but what do they
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call him? Uh, Batkin, Batkin is that his nickname Batman ben Fleck,
17:41
ben bat Black? But bat Flack right, bat Flack. Yeah,
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we got to watch Batlack at work, which, like I kind of just
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wanted to watch a bat Flack movie at that point. So this is my
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biggest problem with this film. And it has nothing to do with CGI,
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and it has nothing to do with how he runs, and it has to
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do with the babies. My biggest problem is that the DCEU keeps doing this.
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They keep rushing their characters and their character developments in movies, and they
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and this is the main problem with Justice League, right, like they introduced
18:15
three new characters that no one's ever met and you're just supposed to love them
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and like understand how they operate and all these things. I just wanted like
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a flash movie, Like, give me a good old, it's a flash
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movie. There's no one else involved. Isn't it wild that of the Justice
18:33
League members that we have this established universe that the only two members of the
18:38
Justice League who do not have their own standalone movie are Cyborg and Batman.
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Isn't that crazy? Dude? That's a great point. The fact that like
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the Justice League version the DCU version, which is to be this whole big
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built universe doesn't have its own Batman films. M hm. That's how you
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know it's bad. It gets universes bad, it gets worse too, because
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I believe, I'm pretty sure I remember this correctly, the Robert Pattinson Batman
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movie that was supposed to be a Ben Affleck movie, but he decided he
19:22
wanted nothing to do with the project, and it sounded like he wanted nothing
19:26
to do with the DCU in general at that point. Yeah. I think
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it was after the Batman Superman stuff, I think, or maybe it was
19:32
after Justine just k changed his mind because of how bad the reviews were.
19:37
I think he just got like discouraged or something. It was like, you
19:38
know what, I'm out, And now I think he's like fully out.
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Yeah, based on how this film went, which that's another confusing thing.
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That was really funny and cool at the end, but like, I don't
19:48
know how they're going to pull that off going forward, Like it seems like
19:52
now there's just more questions I think, right, talking about that's not who
19:55
that should have been based on, like moving forward, right, very stupid.
19:59
Well, Ridge, we'll cross that bridge. I do wanna, I
20:03
do wanna like escalate things a little bit here because for a flash review,
20:07
we are taking our time. Yeah, so I'm gonna I'm gonna, yeah,
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I'm gonna I'm gonna speed things up here, and I'm going to instead
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of going beat per beat, I am instead going to ask you questions just
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about the plot, the plot being here. After Barry decides that he can
20:25
change things, he does change things uh by making sure that his mom does
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have that tomato sauce uh, and in doing so, causes a chain reaction
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of events in creating a different universe in which he finds a much happier,
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wholesome version of himself that's not annoying at all. Uh. His mother's still
20:45
alive, and a lot of other things are going wrong. Barry realizes that
20:48
his actions have caused cascading amount of effects, including no meta humans, just
20:53
in time for the alien invaders from Krypton to be arriving on Earth with Zo
21:00
ready to decimate the planet. Similar to his plans in the Man of Steel,
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Barry goes on recruitment mission to try and find Superman and Batman or the
21:07
Justice League. UH. Anyway, finds two iterations of them, uh and
21:15
gets them to help correct his mistakes. We'll get into the mistakes, but
21:18
as far as this plot goes, Nick, I first want to ask you,
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what did you like about it? Because you said you liked something,
21:26
you like some things. What'd you like? I mean, plot wise?
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I thought it was miserable overall, like they brought back an old villain.
21:37
The fuck are we doing. It's not even creative. It's lazy. It's
21:41
fucking lazy, you know what. I just you know, I just remember,
21:45
we're going to start a thing and we're gonna have millions of people sign
21:48
it. I want my fucking money back like this, you know. I
21:52
just remember we technically do in the DCEU, we do get a flash villain,
21:57
but he is not in the Flash movie, which is wild. Now
22:02
I think about it, Suicide Squad had Captain Boomerang in it, which I'm
22:07
not saying Captain Boomerang should be the main villain of this story. But it's
22:11
would to me that we have introduced a flash villain into this universe and he's
22:15
not in a movie Lash villain in the University he wasn't and he's not in
22:18
the Flash movie. This is ridiculous that that actually, now you bring that
22:22
up, that blows my mind. Yeah, and honestly, like I think,
22:26
as this review goes, you're gonna come more on the side sucked.
22:32
My score is ticking down the more I think about how disrespectful this movie is
22:36
to the Flash. It's stupid. It's so bad because the Flash is one
22:38
of my favorite characters ever and they just sucked. Give me, give me
22:44
some love, Give me some love before I ask you what you ultimately hated
22:47
about, like the plot beats can give me some love. So I did
22:49
love the Like seeing Michael Keaton his Batman is awesome, Like he's like our
22:53
Batman growing up, right, He's the first Batman we ever watched. Really
22:56
like that we can remember, like awesome, really cool. The original scene
23:02
when he gets introduced is a little like Tarzani. It was a little weird
23:04
because he had long hair and he's got no shoes on. I was like,
23:07
this is a little but the little battle they had was cool. The
23:10
little fight they had was cool, and uh, yeah, I don't know,
23:15
I kind of I think this is one of the reasons I love the
23:18
bat Fleck. And now the older Michael Keaton is I kind of like seeing
23:22
Bruce Wayne older after he's been like beaten down after years of fighting crime and
23:26
all these things like that is a movie like that that would be cool to
23:30
see, you know, which I thought we would maybe get bat Fleck Joker,
23:37
you know, back in the day, we thought we were going to
23:38
get something like that. It would just be set more in the future,
23:41
like he was an older Batman kind of kind of deal. But we never
23:44
really got that. So, I mean, but this is the problem with
23:49
the film too, right, Like my favorite so the things I really liked
23:52
were like not even flash related. It was like I really liked seeing Michael
23:55
Keaton. That was a cool thing. Supergirl I thought she did really well.
24:00
I thought the actress was pretty cool, and I thought the the it
24:03
was cool to see Supergirl, Like, I thought that was great, But
24:08
I also felt like it was just a leap. Like creatively, they're like,
24:14
oh, we well, we can't get hander In Cavell to do it
24:15
because he's no longer our Superman and we don't want to pay him, so
24:19
let's just make up this quick little story on why there's a girl and there
24:22
were two pods and stuff, you know, like that, like and we're
24:27
just supposed to believe it because they were like technically like broke time. So
24:33
now that means there's two pods and the Supergirl instead of Superman. No,
24:37
to be fair, you know that, hey, Henry cavill to do it
24:40
like I mean that that's probably true, but like to be fair, like
24:42
carlzrel is like origin story, like that is what happened, Like they they
24:47
took off at the same time, but her pod is delayed or like his
24:52
like goes through like a time warp. I don't know. Something weird in
24:53
comic books. Okay, So in the comic book, Lord's actually is legitimate.
24:56
Okay, right, even though I agree first said, but it is
25:00
probably accurate about the film. They the reason they did it is because of
25:03
they couldn't get Henry because probably they're not gonna pay him twenty million dollars to
25:07
do this, and he's not He's not Superman going forward anyway, I don't
25:11
think right like they're gonna have to know that that is correct. And actually,
25:14
to back up your point, in the original flash comic of flash Point,
25:18
the plot beat of busting Superman out of prison. Uh, that is
25:23
part of the original comic and it is indeed Superman, Like it's an emiciated
25:27
Superman, not Superman. They really like took a lot of liberties basically again
25:32
yeah, like you know, and that's so I didn't love that, you
25:34
know, like and and and those are little things that, like you,
25:37
I probably wouldn't have like cared about as much if like most of the film
25:42
was okay, you know, but like the second that, like they lose
25:45
you early and you don't love how the film's going, you just start to
25:51
think of other little things, like I wouldn't have brought up the fact that,
25:55
oh, they couldn't get cavill to do it. I think seeing seeing
25:59
the young Barry lose control when he finds out that like he can't save Kara,
26:08
that was kind of cool, Like watching him like basically like no I
26:14
can, I'm fast, I can run back in time and keep trying to
26:17
save her, Like that was cool when like he just kept trying to save
26:21
her and kept trying to save her. Was it her or Batman that he's
26:23
trying to say? Technically both of them, but like I think he I
26:27
think triggered by Kara. Yeah, he was triggered by Kara. And and
26:30
as in the uh our flash was more like dealing with the Batman stuff,
26:37
right, but like he's been very triggered by it, and so he keeps
26:40
running back in time, running back in time, and while doing so like
26:42
becoming you know, dark Berry but basically in some ways like Savatar kind of
26:48
right, Like, oh yeah, I was going to bring that up.
26:49
That's kind of what I was like, Okay, so is he Sabbath.
26:52
He's like they're showing him become Savatar, like they're just like it felt like
26:56
they were trying like to just do it was just a little bit little too
27:00
many things they were trying to do. So I loved a lot of the
27:03
same stuffing that you did. Actually, I thought, I think you say
27:07
her name like Sasha Khali. I think that's I think that's how you say
27:11
her name. I'm not sure about that. The actress who plays Kara,
27:14
I think she was great choice. I really liked her. As you said,
27:18
Michael Keaton looks awesome. He is awesome. He's just such a good
27:22
actor. The Ezra Miller duo. I was really impressed with his ability to
27:32
convince me that I'm looking at two different berries right with like the way he
27:36
acts, I think some people really turned off by like how annoying other Barry
27:41
is. And so that's that's a very purposeful choice, right, And I
27:48
like that. I I like the range on him that he can do that,
27:52
and they do feel like two distinct people, right. I'm not sure
27:56
if that was the best choice to go with, mostly because like we need
28:00
to feel bad for both of these Berries, right, and like I sort
28:04
of feel bad for Barry number one when he does the whole like monkey scene,
28:10
when you know he's yelling at other Berry about you through darts at monkey.
28:15
I don't think that scene hits quite as effectively as they meant it to.
28:21
But little things like that like just were like this is so stupid,
28:26
Like yeah, they did, Like that was that was clearly supposed to be
28:30
a more emotional scene, and like you know, you see perks of being
28:33
a wallflower, and I know he can do it. Yeah, It's it's
28:38
writing in that case, you know, It's like right, so it's a
28:41
little yeah, I agree with that. It's that might be just writer issue
28:45
because like there's really no follow up to that because like the moment you see
28:48
Monkey like on the dart board, that's a trigger for the audience immediately like,
28:52
oh is that going to be an issue? And like maybe you forgot
28:55
about it. I did, but when it comes back later you're like,
28:57
ah, yeah, monkey. But and then like there's no follow through with
29:02
it, which is a little disappointing anyway, what I liked about it so
29:07
like like I like that Ezra can do this. I wish it had been
29:11
handled a bit differently. Just too bad because like I am impressed with his
29:15
ability to act. I do want to say for anyone who is an anti
29:18
Miller fan, based on what little I know, I do not blame you.
29:22
I don't really want to get into that on this podcast. For the
29:26
sake of this podcast, I'm simply reviewing his performance as an actor, not
29:30
as a person. Just want to put that out there. As far as
29:37
the plot goes it, like I've told you before, I'm going to be
29:41
a sucker for like almost any time travel movie. And like maybe that's why,
29:45
like I vibe with this a bit more. I mean, I will
29:48
agree. I think as far as time travel movies is probably on the lower
29:51
end. That's different than being a good DCEU film. And I'll get into
29:56
that later. That's a lower, lower standard to pass much lower bar,
30:00
much lower bar. But I liked the idea for this film, and I
30:07
actually like after watching it, I actually liked the idea of using ZOD.
30:11
And maybe it's because, like the DCEU was just so poorly constructed in general,
30:15
but I think using ZOD is a good idea because we need as an
30:18
audience, if we're gonna do a timeline movie, we need to establish a
30:23
timeline that's important for the movie, right, important for the movie universe,
30:27
but also that is relevant to us the audience, right, And like,
30:32
if you're doing a fabricated universe, well then the best way to do that
30:36
is to use previous movies that we are familiar with, right. And the
30:40
thing that kicks it all off is of course the invasion of the Cryptonians and
30:45
without meta humans, Like this really is a pretty threatening and horrible situation,
30:48
like that is that is an Armageddon situation. So I like that idea quite
30:52
a bit. Michael Shannon's performance I did not like quite a bit. He
30:59
really I like Michael Shannon, Yeah, And man was he phoning it in
31:04
just like absolute minimum delivery. Well, you know, like it's like the
31:10
I think the thing I saw online that I sent you a couple of weeks
31:12
ago where he was just like, yeah, I couldn't believe they asked me
31:15
to come back as ODD because I died, like you know, and like
31:18
so he clearly was maybe phoning a little bit. Oh you want to give
31:21
me twenty million dollars to play Odd for thirty minutes? Like sure, you
31:26
know, like I feel like what the pricing was, but yeah, I
31:30
mean I agree, I totally agree it was. Yeah, but that's a
31:33
good point about you're making a good point about giving the audience a timeline that
31:38
they can relate to based on the universe that we're in, right, which,
31:44
like that's a good point, and you're right about them having to use
31:47
Zod because there really wasn't anyone else they could use. But it also goes
31:51
back to my point about how they're lazy with storytelling and they're trying to catch
31:56
a yeah, poorly constructed what mar is on this whole multiversal thing now,
32:01
because they've been working on this for fifteen years, ten years to get us
32:07
to this multiverse situation that we're now dealing with, and Sony is also doing
32:12
it with Spider Man, and it's huge for both both of these studios,
32:16
and dc is just like, oh, we're playing catch up and we're so
32:22
we have to do a multiverse film now, you know what I mean.
32:25
It's just like, yeah, it's like the it's the cool trendy thing is
32:29
the multise we're getting holding back into each other. You know, they're folding
32:32
it all back in because they're still trying to play catch up. So they're
32:35
like, Okay, now we got to do what everyone else is doing well,
32:37
like taking your time, take your time. Well, so I think
32:42
I think you're I think when you're comparing it to the MCU, I think
32:45
you got a point, right, And like they they really did take their
32:47
time phases one through three. Yea, yeah, they tell the pretty effective
32:52
story. But but I do want to bring up though I don't think that
32:57
you necessarily have to do it that way, right. I think that the
33:00
first Spider Verse film is proof that you actually don't necessarily need to do it
33:05
that way. But where I think that movie succeeds and like not even just
33:08
the Flash, where most other DCU movies like fail, is the reason why
33:15
that movie works, right, even though we're incorporating a multiverse and many different
33:20
Spider Man is that movie never loses track of the fact that, yes,
33:24
this is a Spider Men movie, lots of different Spider people, but never
33:29
loses track of the fact this is a Miles movie. And we keep the
33:31
story really focused to Miles and like his development as a character, and like
33:36
the personal struggles he's going through, and that's why that movie works so well,
33:40
you know Whereas to your point, this movie's sort of all over the
33:45
place for a movie that is called The Flash. I really am talking myself
33:49
down from this movie. But no, that is a fantastic point about in
33:55
the Spider Verse, like and that's exactly the problem with the and any of
34:00
the DC things they've done. Yeah, and to your point about going slow,
34:06
even though that is a multiverse movie, that movie across not across the
34:09
Spider Verse, the other one into the Spider Verse, that movie goes slow
34:13
in all the right places, all the right places for Miles, like for
34:16
us, like as the audience. Yes, exactly all the right places.
34:22
It goes slow. You can you can build a multiverse quick if you have
34:24
to, but like, go slow with your characters. Let us earn you
34:29
know that that emotional payoffs, right, And you know what, like going
34:31
back to the Flash too, because now that we're talking a little bit more
34:34
about the plot and stuff, like, I honestly don't know why they had
34:38
to have our Berry lose his powers. It seems it was really stupid in
34:45
hindsight too, when you look back on it's just like, what was the
34:47
point of this? There was no reason for him to also lose his powers.
34:53
There is simpler to have a training montage. So I think there is
34:59
a point, But but it's too it's it's to something that you said earlier
35:05
that you're not gonna like. I think there is a point more than you
35:07
know to have a moment with Supergirl. It is to do an origin story
35:13
without doing an origin story. Yeah, yeah, there's shoehorning it in right,
35:17
like yeah, fucking a fucking shoes which now that you bring up a
35:21
training montage, actually now wish that we had gotten that. That would have
35:23
been fucking cool. Yeah, that would have been fucking cool. It's like,
35:27
oh shit, like older Berry is teaching younger Barry how to be the
35:30
Flash. That's like fifteen or twenty minutes right there of awesome fucking and like
35:32
that of itself is a paradox. Yeah, yeah, it's it's actually you
35:37
know what it is. It's that scene from Harry Potter and The Prisoner of
35:40
Azkaban where Harry says, I I knew I could do it because I had
35:45
already done it. Yeah, does that make sense? Yeah? Like would
35:51
have been way cooler than like ar Berry, just like trying to electrocute himself
35:55
and it being totally ridiculous, and then like he dies, but oh no,
36:00
wait, car is going to get him closer to the lightning like what.
36:06
I actually didn't understand the logic of this either. I was like,
36:09
why did why did the original like experiment work with one lightning strike through somebody
36:19
else's body, right, whereas the second experiment doesn't work with one lightning strike?
36:25
Needs to what that was dumb? I I do agree that because they're
36:30
trying to make us to kill him, you know, they're going to kill
36:34
him, totally fabricated, just fucking kill him. Then, like that would
36:37
have been interesting if the if the original Barry dies, that would have been
36:42
interesting, you know, but like that's not actually super that would have been
36:45
super interesting. That would have been super interesting, But it's not canon.
36:47
I don't believe unless there's this flash story I'm not aware of, which is
36:51
very possible sort of so like there is there is a time where Barry just
36:55
disappears for like a long period of comics. He's just gone interesting, but
37:00
you know what I mean, Like it's just like you said, fabricated like
37:05
suspense, like come on, like come on, yeah, it's like not
37:07
for a moment do we believe he's dead? Yeah, And then also I
37:13
guess we because we're we're kind of on this already like it it. It
37:17
also totally kind of sucks that they killed like that. They couldn't that they
37:22
they did kill Kara and and our batman, like like you know what I
37:25
mean, like come on, yeah, the two things, the two things
37:28
that we genuinely love about, the things that we actually liked, they decided
37:31
to kill like, which, like, based on their explanations, it makes
37:35
sense. But when the film is that bad, now you're just pissing off
37:38
the audience even more at the end of the film, like you're not even
37:42
gonna So I don't have any way of confirming this right now. I read
37:45
somewhere that the ending of this movie changed, and I'm not sure if it
37:51
was under James guns decision making. I don't think he was that powerful at
37:55
the time. I'm not I'm really not sure. Anyway, the ending of
37:58
this movie changed, and originally Kara and Michael Keaton Batman were not supposed to
38:07
die or I guess they were supposed to like survive at the end of all
38:12
of this, And I'm not sure if the idea was for them to go
38:16
on continue playing these characters in like the new Flashpoint universe. Right from what
38:24
I was gathering, it sounded like that was the play. But that's clearly
38:30
not what's happening because of what the ending of this movie is. And we'll
38:32
get to that in just a moment. I do want to ask you first,
38:35
because we sort of got into it the twist. So the twist,
38:40
as you as you pointed out, is Barry Too becoming dark Berry and we
38:45
come to find out that this. You know, it's funny that you said
38:47
the time ghost, because I thought the same thing I thought when we first
38:51
saw him. I was like, Oh, it's got to be a time
38:52
ghost, and no, it's Barry Too becomes dark Berry. You were talking
39:00
about like the effects of Berry two becoming dark Berry, and you thought that
39:04
it was interesting, But what do you think of the twist itself, that
39:07
he is that dark entity. I mean, I think it surprised me a
39:09
little bit, but like I knew it was him the second that Barry had
39:15
the same stuff sticking out of him in the same ways that dark Berry did,
39:20
right right, right, So like when that happened, I was like,
39:22
oh, Okay, that's him, and I kind of liked it,
39:27
Like I liked the twist. This is a part of the twist that I
39:30
don't like. So we get to this part right where Barry two is traveling
39:37
over and over and over again, and dark Berry emerges, and it slowly
39:42
dawns on Barry who this dark entity is, and then Barry too shows up
39:46
and then like he also starts putting it together right, and dark Berry says
39:53
that like he's figured out how to like get everything to go his way,
39:58
and he's got to get rid of Barry one, which is interesting for reasons
40:04
I'll bring up in a moment. And in this moment, Barry Too decides
40:12
that he has to save Barry one and like sacrifices himself and dark Berry kills
40:17
Barry two, and this eliminates both of them, right, and then Barry
40:22
is allowed to return things to the way they were by traveling back into the
40:24
past and putting the tomato sauce like back on the shelf, which was genuinely,
40:30
I think a moving moment. I think that was actually the best acted
40:34
scene of the whole movie. AnyWho, The part that doesn't make any sense
40:38
here to me is the logic of dark Berry and ultimately what happens in this
40:44
scene. I feel like the movie does not follow its own logic in this
40:47
movie, in this particular scene, it genuinely doesn't make sense to me unless
40:51
I totally miss something and correct me if I did so. Dark Berry is
40:55
going to kill Barry, right, and from what we've come to learn about
41:02
the whole continuity of it all and what Barry was afraid of, if he
41:07
never got his powers, does that mean like if Barry two never got his
41:12
powers, does that mean Barry one wouldn't get his powers? Right? Like
41:15
that's established way in the beginning, And then dark Berry's going to eliminate original
41:19
Barry. But if dark Berry eliminates the original Berry, won't that just get
41:22
rid of dark Berry as well? Well? Maybe not, because I guess
41:27
Barry two's the paradox Barry chose the paradox. Yeah, I think it has
41:30
to do without time worse. Yeah, which is technically right. Dark Berry
41:35
is related to Berry two, but he's not related to Burry one, which
41:39
is an interesting concept. Okay, fair, all right, so that one
41:42
doesn't work. However, this is the part that I genuinely could not get
41:45
over, which was he slays Barry too. Why doesn't Barry too heal?
41:50
Berry one even says you're gonna heal, It's gonna be fine, and then
41:52
Barry two just shakes his head and then he dies, and it's like,
41:54
wait, what's the reason for Barry two not healing here? Damn, that's
42:00
a great point. I didn't even think about that. I think I was
42:02
so dumb with the movie already because at that point, had we already seen
42:06
the other flash universes pop up? Or was that after No? I think
42:09
it was yeah, at that point we had already seen them, which yeah,
42:13
we didn't talk about at that point at that point, like what you're
42:15
talking about, Like logic's gone, and now we've seen Nick Cage the Superman
42:20
and we've seen uh fucking what, like, oh it's Christopher Reeves. We
42:28
saw Chris Reeves we've seen all the Superman's actually now don't think about him,
42:31
Like, wait, why did they show the Superman's and not Flash with Klara?
42:37
Yeah, yeah, we saw two different Superman and then we saw another
42:42
the original Supergirl, right, and we saw some flash stuff original flash stuff.
42:47
Yeah yeah, oh yeah, that's true. We saw Jake Garrick flash.
42:50
That's true. I forgot about that. But there is no Jay Gerrit
42:53
Flash in like in any cinema to my knowledge. So like it's so there's
42:59
not a cinema but in yeah, show, yeah, in the TV show,
43:02
but like, yeah, it doesn't hit the same way, you know,
43:06
seeming like Charles Xavier in Multiverse of Madness, does you know, like
43:12
or across the Spider Verse when they're showing us all the Cannon events, which
43:15
is awesome, which I watched four day is before, and then all of
43:19
a sudden, I'm watching this bullshit on screen in the Flash. I'm just
43:22
like, what is this shit? Like this is so poorly done, Like
43:25
you know, yeah, the movie like end's basically right, like Barry two
43:30
dies Dark Berry Dye, we come to find out that this is not quite
43:35
the same. Like when Barry returns after having like a touching goodbye with his
43:38
mom. Right, we come to find out that, or at least we
43:43
think at first that maybe Barry did change something because Barry's father looks up at
43:46
the security camera. Really, what this indicates is Barry's actually not in his
43:51
correct universe, right, which does raise the question of, well, where
43:57
is the Barry of this universe? Oh wait, whatever, this is interesting,
44:00
but real quick, I will agree with you though that I did,
44:02
Like I thought the scene at the end where he says goodbye to his mom
44:05
was like really sweet or like really well acted, and like that was probably
44:08
the, like he said, the best film, the fuck, the best
44:12
scene in the film. I don't know is that is that like what everyone's
44:16
saying online, that he's actually not in his correct universe? Because my my
44:20
take was that he that he changed it. So I think at first that's
44:24
what we were led to believe, is that he changed it, right,
44:28
But then it was like a little mini loophole to make his dad look up
44:31
at the camera, right, right. I like, at first, I
44:35
think that's what they meant for us to think at first, But then when
44:37
we see that Bruce Wayne is not played by Ben Afflack instead George Clooney,
44:45
right, I thought that that that the implication there was Barry is not in
44:49
the correct universe. See. My take on that was that he changed one
44:54
little thing and it does even that has some slight ripple effects. Light ripple
45:00
possibly, I mean honestly, like who the hell? Yeah, like if
45:04
you could have a choice, right the fact that, Like so just from
45:09
a like seeing Clooney, I was like, holy shit, like we were
45:12
all laughing. This is ow Like that was probably the highlight of the film,
45:16
just to seeing unexpectedly watching cloone to get out of that car genuinely did
45:21
not see that was that was cool. That was probably my favorite part of
45:24
the whole goddamn thing the end. But well, definitely because it ended right
45:30
like, but then that's stupid because that's definitely what they most likely that's what
45:37
they did. But that's they were just they were just shoving more cameos in,
45:39
right, like, get getting one more cameo in because you're gonna change
45:43
Batman anyway, so you might as well. That sucks. That sucks.
45:47
It does, But that's the thing. That's the thing, right, Like,
45:51
it only has a one time effect on you, right like that there
45:54
is no longevity to a choice like that, Like when it happens, you're
45:58
like, that's amazing, But then like every time after that and forever now,
46:01
because like there's sure to be more Batman movies after this, right,
46:05
You're like, well, I was kind of dumb that they did that.
46:07
And like for those who don't even like know those movies or or never will
46:12
watch those movies, right, the Batman Forever series, Batman Forever, right,
46:16
yeah, that that series, right, And if they ever come to
46:21
watch this movie, they'll they'll say, why was there just some old guy
46:22
at the end of this movie? Right? You know which sinful is anyone?
46:30
Like what twenty three and under? Probably there's a good chance they've never
46:34
seen those movies, yes, right, No, I would say a high
46:36
chance. Yeah, high chance. So stupid, Like they're making such dumb
46:40
decisions and I don't even know if James Gunn can get him out of this
46:45
bullshit. He needs to reset everything, like actually, like I want origin
46:49
stories for everyone from the ground up. Like that's the kind of reset they
46:52
need, and they won't do it. They won't do it, but they
46:55
it's the only way out. But they bold strokes. All right, let's
46:59
get yeah, let's let's score this. So I've I've gone down in my
47:04
score. I'm still not in terrible territory. I'll tell you where I was
47:07
and where I'm at. I was ready to come at this movie with a
47:10
three five, which is about god yea, yeah, yeah. For the
47:14
record, that's about where I was for ant Man, I believe, which
47:16
is egregious, sir. This is nowhere near as good as am ant Man.
47:21
Quantum Mania was a masterpiece compared to this film. All right, let's
47:24
not get let's not say anything we might regret. I don't regret that.
47:29
I think I enjoyed this movie more like as I was watching it in the
47:36
theater as compared to like ant Man, however, like just going over like
47:40
different problems, Like as I'm thinking about it more and more afterward, gonna
47:45
bump this score lower to about a three. It's gonna sit solidly as a
47:50
three for me, because like at the end of the day, it's got
47:52
problems. That is such a nice score. It's crazy at the end of
47:57
the day. At the end of the day, it's got problems. As
48:00
there's got problems. There are some stylistic choices that I don't like. I
48:06
something that I do like about this movie, though, is I like that
48:08
it's an origin without an origin. I like, I really like what the
48:14
heart of this movie is, which is, even though there is a message
48:17
to this movie that is a bit shoehorned, which is, some some questions
48:22
don't have solutions, right, or some problems don't have solutions right. That's
48:25
a bit shoehorn And like the moment Nora Allen traps that line, you're like,
48:29
Okay, that's gonna be like the thesis of this movie, which,
48:30
like that sucks to see that coming, right, because like that could be
48:34
pretty powerful if you don't. I do like that that's the thesis of the
48:37
movie. I just wish it wasn't shoehorned. I like that Barry is ultimately
48:42
the villain. He's the hero and the villain of his own story. I
48:45
like that, even though it's like this is massive multiverse story, it is
48:50
internalized into that. And I think that's a really good idea. Do I
48:53
think that they execute it? Well, No, probably not, And like
48:57
it breaks its own logic as far as like movie logic goes right, and
49:02
like that's important. You need to be able to follow through on what you're
49:07
on what you're saying, you're delivering right, and it does not And wow,
49:09
And now as I'm even saying this, now I kind of want to
49:12
go lower than a three nine two nins the lowest. I'll go to nine.
49:16
You gotta be in the two. There's no way this movie is a
49:19
three three is like for like I enjoyed my four three to three six is
49:24
like decent Solids film. You know, the problem is not that, right,
49:28
all right, But the problem is I can't go lower than that,
49:30
because like I enjoyed, I actually did enjoy myself in the theater like quite
49:34
a bit, especially when like Michael Keaton's on right, So like I can't
49:37
go lower than that. And like like I said, I do love what
49:40
even though it does lose it at the times, I do love what the
49:44
heart of this movie is. And that's as that's what I'll say it.
49:46
Two nine you're not all right? Well, obviously this is much higher than
49:51
my score. Oh boy, oh my god? How close is zero?
49:54
Are we getting? I'm I honestly, I'm like, do I save room
50:00
for a worse film down the line? Or is this like the peak of
50:04
terrible superhero films that I'll ever watch. I'm gonna I'm gonna give this a
50:13
one point five. Wow, this is one and a half star. This
50:16
is punishing. This is one point five out of five. Uh yeah,
50:23
this movie is not good. It had many many issues. It had The
50:29
best parts were not even related to the flash. DC is really just Warner
50:37
Brothers in DC whatever have just not done a good job. They've not done
50:42
a good job, and I'm very skeptical. I hope James Gunn can turn
50:45
it around. But like I don't often want to walk out of a movie
50:50
ten minutes in. I wanted to do it ten minutes in. I wanted
50:52
to do it forty minutes in. I wanted to do it an hour and
50:54
a half. And I damn sure did it before the extra credit scene because
50:59
I'm not through credits for a movie that was terrible. And I really often
51:07
don't wish I didn't spend twenty dollars on something because it's like, you know,
51:09
twenty dollars is not the end of the world. But like I honestly,
51:13
like I'm really pissed that I gave the theater twenty dollars to go watch
51:17
this, Like I could have waited a year, watch it up for free
51:22
on HBO. Not even it probably would kind of be on HBO in four
51:24
months or less because it didn't even do well this weekend. So they're going
51:28
to rush that thing through. Probably should try to get some kind of hope
51:32
out of it. It really is just disappointingly bad. And uh yeah,
51:40
that's it. One point five out of five. I'm leaving room the body.
51:45
You know what's crazy. We both gave low scores. We've both given
51:49
our lowest scores for any project so far. And yet and yet even though
51:55
those both those statements are true, this is the widest discrepancy Yeah ever had
52:00
on a movie. This is this is normally we're pretty like, we're pretty
52:04
close, usually pretty close, and but it is the lowest score we've got
52:09
in each film. But you just had You just had more fun in the
52:13
theater I did. And I think part of that is because you had a
52:15
little hope. But I don't know that can go both ways. It can't
52:20
because it'll kill you. I hope that kills you. Jealous, I hope
52:23
that kills you. And I went in there with like this is gonna be
52:25
terrible, and it was worse than terrible. I was like, shit,
52:29
man, that's a review. That's the review. H Yeah, I don't
52:37
think we got much more to say than that, except for hopefully we're going
52:40
to have some stronger opinions and some stronger hopes. I'm excited, I actually
52:46
genuinely excited to start watching Secret Invasion Samuel L. Jackson. I'm stoked crazy
52:52
that we're over fifteen years into the MCU and this is the first project starring
52:58
Samuel L. Jackson. Super hyped to see it. So that will be
53:00
our next episode next time on May the review be with you peace. Sorry,
53:13
you're getting worse and worse with that. I forgot that. I say
53:16
piece at the end of that. What did you think my eyes like getting
53:22
his wife? I'm pretty sure. I'm pretty sure you usually do something else
53:25
before I say peace. But anyway, whatever, No, I think you're
53:29
right, because like you actually feel like I was missing something. I was
53:31
like, I think, he says, I don't know, it's fine, it's