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#38 NoSo November: Why It May Be Time to Take Some Space from Social Media · College Is Fine, Everything's Fine

Okay. Well, we're excited. We have a guest today. I would love, for you to introduce yourself. Hi, so my name is Maddie Freeman. I'm currently a senior at CU Boulder in Colorado, and I'm studying business management and entrepreneurship, and I'm also the founder of my nonprofit, NoSo, and I've been working in the space of mental health, suicide prevention, and digital wellness for about four years now, and yeah, I'm just so excited to talk with you both and be on this podcast today.So thanks for having me.I'm so thrilled to talk to you. Not only because I, Liz and I have gotten to see some of the things you've done. So we had a little preview this summer at the active minds conference, but I also just want to talk about Boulder for a second. I've got some family there. It's so amazing. It's so gorgeous.And I just really am jealous of all that sunshine you get.I know today I rode my bike to class today and it was so warm, which usually right now it's like pretty miserable winter, but it was so nice today and the Flatirons look beautiful. It's such, it's an incredible place to live. Yeah, it's great.How long have you been there? What year are you at CU? Thank you. Thank you.So I'm a senior, so this is my fourth year, but I took a gap year during COVID. So I guess it's kind of my fifth year, but, um, I've lived in Littleton my whole life, which is about an hour, uh, south of Boulder. So been in Colorado for quite some time now.Yeah, Colorado girl.Yeah, So Maddie, like Sarah shared, um, you're so well spoken. I'm so impressed at a young age, how connected you've gotten to a lot of really important causes that Sarah and I both as psychologists feel really passionate about.I think they're even in line with our mission of this podcast, which is to promote mental health awareness and connect college students with resources, to, improve their psychological wellbeing. So can you tell us a little bit, maybe start with like your journey, how you got into mental health advocacy, and then you can tell what KnowSo is about, which is really why we wanted you on today.definitely. Yeah. So my journey into working in the mental health field has been definitely a long,, interesting journey, but I'm so grateful that I've landed here. Um, basically, there was a lot of things that led me to begin working in this field. , specifically, I mean, I started struggling with my own mental health issues around the age of.And so around that time, I felt very alone and very like, I felt that I was the only person experiencing what I was going through. And this was really hard for me. Um, and then when I got to high school, I ended up recognizing that a lot of other people were struggling. And this was really apparent to me after I lost a lot of friends to suicide.Um, so starting my sophomore year, one of my close friends died by suicide and it really hit home for me and was definitely one of the worst days of my life. I think that was one of the hardest things I've ever had to get through. Um, and then I kind of thought that was going to be the worst day of my life for the rest of my life.And then I continued losing friends over and over after that. Um, leading into 2020, which is when I was a freshman at CU Boulder, and I was living in the dorms, and then we moved home from COVID, and I lost five friends that year, not all to suicide, but, um, most to suicide, and it was just so hard, and I just didn't really understand how this could keep happening.And I recognize that this wasn't normal. Um, I had told some of the people that I'd met at college about what had happened and they thought I was joking because of the immense amount of people that I'd lost. And so, um, just kind of shed some light that this isn't something that people just go through as they go through high school.I kind of thought everyone who. was my age, had a long list of friends that had passed away, and obviously that didn't sit right with me. And so after one of my closest friends died by suicide in August of 2020, I really felt like I needed to do something. I didn't really know what else to do with myself.I was sitting at home. I had no plans for the year. I decided to take a gap year. My dad is immunocompromised, so I really was being strict about not seeing anyone during the COVID pandemic. So, I was alone, very depressed, really struggling, and I saw a need to be filled, and I did my best to try to fill that need, and that has led me here, which has been incredible.So, what happened is, I wrote a petition addressed to my old high school district that I attended, and asked them to implement more mental health resources that were actually effective. And that had youth voices involved. Um, and so we got a good amount of them off the ground. It was really exciting to work with them hands on to kind of just come up with new resources and try them out, test them.Um, which is when I ended up, uh, coming up with the idea of no. So, which is my nonprofit. Um, I thought that it'd be a cool idea to challenge people to take a break from social media for a month in whatever way that fit for them, uh, and see if that improves their mental health. And it was pretty astounding the results and how positive it was and the change that students saw after they logged off.Um, I felt those results too. I logged off social media for the first time myself, and I didn't realize how I was and how positive it was for me to just. Delete my ass and sit with my thoughts and figure out what I love doing and figure out what healthy coping mechanisms I could implement. So, um, it was a really cool experience.And now flash forward four years, um, I'm still doing this work and it's growing every day and it's definitely just, I've never felt more passion around anything, so I just feel so grateful to be able to, uh, do this work in the memory of those that I've lost and also to continue to, uh, be more aware of my own mental health and those around me.So that's kind of my story of how I got involved in this thing.That is such a powerful story and to hear someone taking something that's so painful and then turning it into something that could help others always makes my skin kind of prickle in a good way, right? Like all the goosebumps. You know, so you talked about how you got here. And the sort of the end of sort of, I mean, obviously not the end in, but like where social media and your relationship is to it now, what about the beginning when did you first access social media?And what was that initially like for you?that's a great question. Yeah. So I was first exposed to social media platforms and it was around like 6th, 7th grade. So again, right around the time that I started developing mental health problems and at the time, no 1 really knew. Anything about it. We just thought it was a cool way to connect with our friends and post pictures.I remember posting like super filtered, cropped, funky photos. I mean, my friends at the mall and thought I was so cool. And at the time I kind of felt like all it was, and we had no idea what was to come behind that and how it would develop. And so, um, I was definitely using it as an outlet as a coping mechanism for me to.Kind of avoid all the scary feelings I was feeling as a young kid. Uh, and then kind of moving through high school, I started feeling extremely addicted to it, but I didn't really think it was bad because I felt like everyone was addicted to it. Um, I even remember my mom a few times kind of asked me, she's like, I feel like you're spending way too much time on your phone.Like, what do you think? And I was like, shut up, mom. Like, I don't, I think it's fine. Everyone does it. Right. Um, but looking back, like I was genuinely spending eight hours a day on my phone and at least six of those hours was social media and It really pains me to think back on that because I know that that made everything so much harder for me to deal with.And I know that that was my number one coping mechanism, which is not a healthy coping mechanism. It just distracted me and took away my kind of lust for life and my ability to seek out passions and seek out the things that I actually enjoy doing. And it took me away from my friends. And, um, yeah, it was just, it was just.Very interesting, because I wasn't aware until, um, I watched The Social Dilemma, which is when I really learned that, um, it's designed to be addictive, that our attention is being bought and sold. I had no idea any of those things were happening behind the scenes, and I felt very used and disgusted, and I really had wished that in high school and in middle school, I had learned about the addictive design, and I actually understood how that business model worked, because then maybe I wouldn't have been spending as much time on it. And what does it look like?You know, Sarah talked about this journey. What does it look like now for you? I mean, of course, you have this nonprofit, and you're trying to increase some of the awareness that you wish that you had when you were younger and were introduced to these platforms. But what is your relationship with social media look like now as a college student, where I think a lot of college students are very entangled in social media?Right.a hell of a journey. Um, I would definitely say I'm probably at the healthiest point I've ever been with my social media usage, which is awesome, but that's not to say I don't have struggles still. Um, I've noticed that whenever I do the detox, so I've deleted social media for a month or longer, four times now.And every time I do, um, I end up feeling better and better after once I redownload the apps because I feel like I have a new sense of how to kind of enter the social media realm in a healthier way. But then I tend to feel like I'm just end up after a month or so just slipping right back into my old habits, which is really frustrating.And so something that I've noticed, first of all, is that over time, I've slowly deleted apps permanently that just don't really serve me anymore. So I used to spend a lot of time. On specifically Twitter and Instagram, like, those were my two apps that I would always go to. Um, I ended up deleting Twitter about three years ago because I just didn't really get much value from it anymore.And then I ended up deleting Instagram about two years ago. Um, for the same reason, especially because of the scrolling I was feeling so addicted to. So that kind of left me with Snapchat and YouTube and Netflix. And specifically, I noticed that I kind of transferred my addiction. I thought that if I, if I thought that if I deleted traditional social media, like Snapchat, Snapchat, Instagram, TikTok, whatever, that I'd be fine.But then I just ended up spending the same amount of time I was spending on those apps and I started spending it on YouTube. I started spending it on Netflix and watching TV. And so quite recently I got into a pretty unhealthy spiral with that, where I would just want to watch one YouTube video and I'd end up watching for like six hours.And we've heard that story so many times, and that's how it's intended to be. Right. Um, and so I was getting frustrated because I mean, I'm the founder of this digital wellness nonprofit and I'm sitting in my bed feeling like I've been watching six hours a day of YouTube. Right. And so I think that just shows that like, No matter how educated we are, we really have to implement certain practices to try to combat the effects, but also that like It's kind of a losing game like we're battling against tech developers that are Ten times smarter than us and algorithms that are a hundred times smarter than us So it's really hard to resist those addictive features, even if you're really trying so that said I just kind of made a commitment to myself this no, so I decided to delete everything including YouTube and Netflix and I even moved my TV into my closet And I'm really committing to just sitting with myself And not allowing myself to get distracted.And I'll tell you, it's probably one of the hardest no sos I've done yet, just because of how much time I was spending on YouTube. So yeah, it's been a lot of ups and downs. Like I said, overall, I'd say, um, my, my relationship with social media has improved, but it's still, um, a daily battle, and I'm still working on it.I am actually listen as I'm sure Liz can have her stories like this too, but as a psychologist who sits and.Um, and then to watch what I say in a session to someone versus what happens when I'm at home and I lose my cool or, you know, it's, it is funny where you're like, well, I failed as a psychologist and a mother today because I screamed my head off at my kids. So, yeah, I think that you're. Not alone in saying like, there's a difference, a huge gap between knowing kind of what you should be doing and then falling prey to all those different things, um, that I think, and I don't know if you guys would agree, it's almost like we have not evolved to have the skill set yet to manage that many dopamine hits a day, you know, um, to manage that many things that seek out our attention.You know, we are, we really haven't. Yeah. I mean, we might probably, I can imagine in hundreds of millions of years or whatever that we might have some strategy or we've like learned and evolved to, to manage it, but while it comes at us fast and you're right, computers, you know, it's not even people being smarter, computers are quicker at certain things like figuring out algorithms that we like.So I think that it can keep us feeling a little powerless and I love that you've taken that power back. And slowly each time think, wait a minute, you two have a YouTube as an algorithm to Netflix says, keep watching that little blip, you know, can get, can get me too. So kudos.Yeah, I was going to say Maddie, it sounds like, um, you have the awareness and then the part that you keep doing is like, just keep reflecting like, is this working for me? Is this helping me? And, and. With compassion, it seems like, towards yourself, like, how could it be otherwise that I keep slipping back into these places?Um, but that you don't give up. It's just like, okay, I'm gonna continue to have these opportunities. And maybe that's something college students can do, is to, and obviously no so is a big part of that, to kind of reflect and think about, ? Can I take some space from social media for a period of time and see what that might be?you know, highlight for us or teach us about ourselves. Um, while not being judgmental that it's going to probably be a struggle given, uh, the uphill battle we're against.Right. Yeah, I love what you said. I think self compassion is one of the hardest, but most important qualities to have, um, because it's easy to beat yourself up. Like you said, you're like, Oh, I failed as a mother. And it's like, you didn't fail. You're just a human being and you're struggling with issues that everyone's struggling with.Right? So it's continuing to remind yourself that, You're just like everyone else. And even though you're promoting something or you're trying to help other people with something, it doesn't mean you're not allowed to struggle. Right. And so it definitely can be hard to recognize that and accept that. But, um, it's empowering to keep trying and it's empowering to keep finding ways that work for you.Um, and yeah, that's what my nonprofit really aims to do is, is figure out how people can find a healthier tech life balance. And for some that's deleting social media for a month. And that's obviously a challenge we promote as no social media November, but there's a lot of other ways to do that. You can try to form a healthy relationship.You can try to. Um, create the kind of morph the platforms into something you'd rather see, like unfollow people that make you feel bad about yourself and follow creative inspirations and other things like that, and maybe turn off your notifications or turn your phone grayscale. Like, there's a lot of ways that we, as individuals can find a healthier, um, digital well being, but it doesn't have it's not 1 size fits all.So it's definitely yeah, it's been an interesting journey for me for sure. I think one of the things you said that was really skillful is you set yourself up for success. You know, we know that a really great way to act with a lot of willpower is to. Do behaviors beforehand that can help get us there. So it's a lot easier to have willpower not to hop on Instagram and scroll if you've created It as a more, you know creative Environment for yourself.It's a lot easier with other things too, right? It's a lot easier for me to eat healthy. If I, when I go to the grocery store, don't get all the things that I know are going to be really hard for me to eat or to stay away from eating in that moment. So that's a really skillful thing that you're doing. And is that something that you're ever coaching people?Like when you do this, are there tips that you say in addition to, you a full detox. Are there other tips that you have sort of a. A plan that you offer to people who say, I can't do the whole month.Yeah, definitely. So we have actually three kind of concrete levels of participation. So, um, the all in way to go is deleting all social media for the full month. Um, it's just full commitment and it can be very impactful. But for some people, that's just not in the cards. So the next level down is the school slash work option.So that's for people who need to use social media for school or work purposes. So basically what they would do is. They can keep that app for the school work purpose and try to only use it for that reason and then delete all other social media on their phone. And then the last method is just, I'm working on it.And so that's the method that has a lot of different tips and tricks under it. It's, um, like I said, you can unfollow people who feel bad, who make you feel bad about yourself. Maybe delete some apps that just don't even feel like they're serving you anyway, and you don't even go on them anyway. Um, so there's a lot of ways that people can get involved.Um, a new kind of level we unlocked this year was, uh, choosing anywhere between 1 and 30 days. So, rather than doing a full month, you can delete social media for 3 days and just see how you feel. And I've done that in the past when I'm having a really stressful week, and just 3 days can be so resetting.So, it really is just examining, like, what feels accessible to you and what you think would actually help. But also, like, taking a leap of faith, going out of your comfort zone and trying something that may be hard for you, but actually might reap a lot of benefits. Um, and so another thing I wanted to touch on is, with any habit, specifically quote unquote bad habits that we have, once you eliminate that bad habit, you can't just leave it there.You need to find something to replace it with. That's such a crucial thing that we need to find. And so a huge thing that we emphasize at NoSo is if you're going to delete social media or limit your usage, find something else to replace that time with. So we actually make these really cool, um, checklists where people can write down a bunch of different things they've always wanted to try or things they've been meaning to do or people they've been meaning to reach out to.Um, and even like random acts of kindness of just ideas that whenever they're feeling bored or whenever they reach for their phone, try to click that spot where Instagram used to live and then it's not there. They can turn to the list instead and then in this way, they can really develop those healthy coping mechanisms and kind of train their brain to turn to something more healthy.That's not digital. Once they're feeling that need to distract themselves. So there's a lot of ways. Yeah, there's a lot of awesome ways to be able to, um, not only detox, but just find that tech life balance. And that's what I'm continuing to try to build and work on is, is again, not making it one size fits all and trying to.Yeah. Create accessible options for all people to attempt to try.you just made our little behavioral therapistknow. I was like, Oh my gosh, she's adding, adding behaviors rather than focusing on taking away. I was like, these are great principles of behaviorism. I Work with a lot of college students. I think like when I propose like maybe take some distance from social media.They're like, it's just impossible. Like, like one, people are gonna think I'm weird, like, like I use my DMs as like essentially text messaging. Like, I, um, I'm going to miss out, like, you know, I might not see something that's really important to me, but I do, like, as you're kind of talking about more of these like bite sized approaches, um, where instead of saying like, I can't do this, like making it non negotiable, like I really want to kind of examine what it might look like to take a little bit of.And these seem a lot more doable for all people, but definitely for college students, I think. Um, so, it's great that you have some guidelines and are recognizing that there might be ways to kind of get your foot in the door, uh, doing this that seems more approachable.definitely. And really quick, this one other thing is, you mentioned like the social situation. So it can be really hard for people when they feel very reliant on social media to connect with people that they care about. Um, and so that's another thing that we really encourage is to try to come together as a community to do this.And that's why we promote Um, the idea of a detox at schools because friend groups can decide to do it together so that no one feels left out. If everyone deletes their social media, then you have to call each other and you have to text each other. There's really no other option, right? So, it's important to, yeah, create also like a plan for yourself.It's not just delete social media and then kind of be like, oh shoot, well now I'm lonely. Like, It's be proactive and, and reach out to your friends and communicate, Hey, I would really like to chat with you over text this week. Or, Hey, I'm taking a break. I'd really appreciate if you wanted to have some like one on one FaceTime calls. And what people seem to find is that they go into the detox thinking they're going to be really lonely and isolated. Um, but if they follow through on that planning process of giving their friends their phone numbers and telling them what they're doing or even getting them involved, uh, they end up feeling so much more authentically connected to those around them.And I've experienced that, too, like, I can open 30 snapchats of people's faces and feel pretty empty, but 1 friend calls me, we have, we have an hour long conversation and it's just such a positive, uplifting experience. And I just feel so grateful and joyful after. It's, yeah, it's important to involve community and, um, create a social element to it as well.So, I, I like that you touched on that.I, this is so inspiring to me. I feel like I need to go and sort of regroup after talking to you. And I know we don't have much time left with you. I am reflecting when you talked about sometimes. We all get comfortable sort of what I think of as like the pain of growth versus the pain of stuckness, like the pain of stuckness being things we're like, we're kind of familiar with feeling a little icky when we see somebody who has the great Instagram post, right?We're like, well, that's just part of it. And the pain of growth being like, okay, I have to deal with the fear of potentially missing out or deal with the, you know, the uncomfortable feeling that might come with having to call somebody instead of et cetera. But, you know, what I hear you saying is that there is so much extra fun and surprise.So maybe one last. Story or tidbit for the person who's mainly on the, you know, kind of on the tip of trying this any other, you know, um, any other inspirational stories or a sense of like, wow, I never thought this could happen and never would have happened if I didn't at least just give this a shot and stay curious.Yeah, I actually have, yeah, I love that. I have a really cool story. Um, it's actually about my best friend. So, when me and my friend did the detox for the first time, we decided to go all in, delete everything. Um, this was the second year of the No Social Media November Detox and Um, he and I were just talking on the phone and he was like, Oh, I really want to like try new things.Like specifically, like I've always been really interested in like yoga and like meditation, but I've never just, I've never really gotten around to doing it. And I was like, wow, I feel the same way. Like there's a long list of things I've always like thought about trying, but I have never just gotten out of bed and done it.Cause there's kind of just that bridge, like you need to bridge that gap to find that motivation. Um, so we both decided to do a 30 day yoga and meditation challenge. And, um, it was very positive for both of us. I actually do yoga pretty much daily ever since then. And, um, meditation has been one of my biggest coping mechanism at coping mechanisms since then.And it's been super positive for me, but for him, he really took it to the next level. Um, about a year later, he actually decided to go live up, um, at a Buddhist monastery and get yoga. Get his yoga certification. And so now he's a certified yoga teacher and he also started a meditation club at his college.So he leads guided meditations every week, um, for about 20 students and he's found so much purpose and passion and guidance through that. And, um, I think he's gonna follow that path for his career, and it's been so beautiful to see that just setting aside. Um, the digital distraction for a little while really awakened him to his purpose to the point where he's found what he loves in life.And that's just been such a beautiful thing for me to see. And of course I've developed that passion as well, but, um, yeah, I think, I think seeing that was so positive and I've heard a lot of other stories like that. So, um, I think it's important to just give it a shot. If you have a calling that says like.This might be really hard, but I think it could be really positive. Give it a shot. The worst thing that can happen is you'll read downloads, social media the next day, right? So as long as you give it a shot in whatever way it works for you. Um, I think it can be really positive. So, yeah. Thank you guys soWhat a beautifulOh my gosh. So many. I know so many good feels. Thank you so much for coming and weMaddie, so much.story. Yes. Thank you so much for being on.Thank you both so much. I'm going to talk to you.Bye.