Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / "Curious what it would be like to stab someone,” drama-student-killer "over-acted" with butcher knife

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"Curious what it would be like to stab someone,” drama-student-killer "over-acted" with butcher knife · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Pamela Kahanas grew up the
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: second youngest of eight siblings in a big farm family
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: outside Stillwater, but the twenty five year old wanted to
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: see more of the world, and she thought by joining
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: the Navy she would possibly be able to do this.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Khanas made it through two months of boot camp in Florida,
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: then came August fifth, a driver found her body in
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: the lawn of an empty house a half hour north
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: of the training base in Orlando. Her brothers and sisters
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: spent the next thirty four years in agony, and many
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: times I would think, you know, okay, if I say
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: a prayer and I lay here still tonight, I'll be
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: directed to what happened to her, and it just never comes.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: A beautiful young female Navy recruits vicious murder. The Minnesota
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: woman Pamela Kahanes just twenty five years old, beaten, strangled, dead,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: just two days after she graduates from Orlando Naval Training Center.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: That was August. Her white uniform was found strowne just
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: inches away from her dead body, but as the time
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: ticked by, there was no answer. The family, distraught friends
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: came under the microscope who killed Pamela Caines joining me
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: an all star panel. First of all newcomer Nicol to board.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Former prosecutor, criminal defense attorney, Cheryl McCullum, Director of the
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Cold Case Research Institute, CSI expert, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert,
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: professor at Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: My Feet on Amazon. Renowned California's Psycho and Let's Doctor
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall. But right now to Robin Wilinski, crime online
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter and author of Beautiful Life, The
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: CSI behind the Casey Anthony Trial. To Robin Willinsky, what
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: can you tell me about Pamela? Because her body is found,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: she's dead, beaten and strangled. Her uniform is found very
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: close to her body. I take that to mean she
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: was assaulted as well sex assaulted. Well, Nancy, she was
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: found with her underwear on. So they have never said
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: that there was a rape in this case. Wait, wait, place,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: just wait wait wait. I'm sorry, Robin Wilenski. I normally
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: agree with every single thing you say, But Cheryl McCollum plays,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: can you help me here? Let's give everybody a reality check.
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: A woman is found, her clothes are off, the fact
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: that her underwear are on, that means nothing unless she's
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: driving around and nothing but her underwear. And I don't
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: think that's true. So when you've got a lady in
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: her closer off, Cheryl, of course she was assaulted, it
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: certainly would make you think sexual. But n ify, here's
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: the thing. She's wearing a naval uniform. Maybe it was
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: simply somebody that didn't Okay, Um, Cheryl, I'm trying to
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: be nice to you because today's your birthday. But um,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: you say a woman has her let me get this robin.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Her clothes are stripped off except for her underwear. That's
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: a yes, No, that's correct. Uniform gone uniform laying beside her. So, Cheryl,
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: your made up theory is that someone thought she didn't
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: deserve to be in the armed forces, so they beat her,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: killed her, strangled her, and ripped off her uniform. Is
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: that what you're saying. I'm saying that's a constability if
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: she in fact were not great. Okay, So um, help
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: me out, doctor Bethany Marshall, because apparently I'm not speaking
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: plain English. Because when you find a dead woman's body
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: and their clothes are ripped off. Of course it's sexual, Nancy.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: My understanding was that she was bludgeoned, that there was
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: semen on the side of her underwear. There's a possibility
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: she would killed somewhere else and then dumped there. What
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: other motivation is there other than a sex assault. We
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: don't know of any intimate relationship she was in. I
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: don't think she had a husband or a boyfriend there.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: So this doesn't seem like domestic homicide, doesn't seem like
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: a kidnap. Nobody was taking her somewhere so they could
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: have her all to themselves. No, she was accosted, assaulted,
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: there was semen, and she was dumped in a field. Nancy,
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: this has sex written all over it. But of course
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: you know, well, you may call that sex, Bethany Marshall.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: You're a psycho analyst. You know a lot more about
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: this field than I do. But I call that attack.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: That doesn't sound like sex to me, because the word
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: sex means to me suggest that it's consensual, And I
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: certainly don't think that she would be found blood and
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: faced down with her clothes ripped off if it were consensual.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: But you know what, that's just me, all right, so
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: at least you and I agree. Joseph Scott Morgan, are
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: you going to argue with me about this? You don't
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: think that the fact that she's stripped down dead means anything?
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: Does that mean nothing to anybody but me? Oh no,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: I think that there's a strong sexual component here. I've
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: worked serial killings where their serial killer would have sex
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: with the body and then put the underwear back on
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: the body. But anything, okay, that will give me something
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: to think about as I go about my day, all right,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: that they kill somebody and rape them after the death,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: or then redress them after the death. You know who
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: did that? Right? A lot of people don't know this,
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Ted Bundy. They think he was just this dashing lawyer
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: want to be had, some charming blah blah that would
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: go around and pick up women and then bludging them. No,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: he was a complete freak, Joe Scott Morgan, isn't it true?
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: You know what? Let me go to Cheryl MC call
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: them on this one, miss miss Maybe they took her
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: uniform off because they didn't think she should be in
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: the armed forces. Cheryl. I'm going to try to pretend
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: that never happened with you and go forward as if
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: nothing went wrong. Cheryl ted Bundy. Isn't it true that
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: on many of his victims he would after he raped
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: them and murdered them, would bathe them, would fix their hair,
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: would put on makeup and redress them. Absolutely, he stays
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: many things after the fact. He spent a lot of
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: time with his victims afterwards, no doubt about it. I
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: think spending time once again, Charyl, I'm gonna get you
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: another cup of coffee. Spending time with a victim the
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: body's dead. It's not like you're chatting and spending time
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: with somebody. You're redressing them and applying hair and makeup.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: That's a little different than quote spending time with somebody
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: plus they're dead. Correct. What I meant was, I'm trying
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: to be very clear. He spent time with the corpse
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: after the fact. He did that. He dressed them, he
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: positioned them, he fixed their hair, he repositioned their clothing. Absolutely.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: I also mentioned to you Nicolder Board let the hazing begin.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Nicolder Board. Her bra was found three days later, about
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: two hundred feet from where her body was found. No,
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: it certainly sounds like there is a sexual assault component,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: and I agree with you. That's not about sex, that's
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: about violence. So this is definitely, in my opinion, a
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: very nasty attack, horrible, horrible attack. And I'm looking at
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: her picture right now. I'm talking about a beautiful young
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: Navy recruit, Pamela Cahanes murdered in the Orlando area. Now,
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: investigators had found DNA and they tested it and tested
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: it and tested it never got a match. To Robin Willinski,
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: the family beside themselves, what happened, Well, that's right, Dancy.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Pamela was from a small town called Stillwater, Minnesota. She
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: was very far away from home. She had wanted to
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: see the country and possibly the world, and this is
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: why she was in the Navy to begin with. She
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: was stationed at the Orlando Naval Training Center and her
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: body was actually found outside of an abandoned house in Sanford,
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: which is also in the Orlando area. You know, this
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: is reminding me of and I'm going to go to
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: you on this, Cheryl McCullum, because I think you and
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: Joe Scott can definitely identify if what I'm about to say.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: As Robin Winsk was describing this young twenty five year
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: old Pamelaa Haynes coming from the small town in Minnesota,
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: and she joins the Navy. My dad was in the Navy,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: thinking she was going to see the world, and she
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: ends up dead on the side of the road with
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: her clothes ripped off. And to make matters worse, they
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: can't catch the killer. I'm just thinking because Cheryl, Joe Scott,
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: we three come from an area where I came from.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: There's nothing but pine trees and soybean fields as far
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: as you can see, red dirt. And the thought that
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: there was something beyond rural bib County. I mean, for many,
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: many years, I've never dawned on me. And then I
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: realized there was a big world out there. And Pamela,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: just twenty five years old, ends up dead, face down, bludgeoned,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: and they can't find her killer. Now take a listen
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: to our friend at New six or Land a reporter
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: Jerry Askin and the victim's family relieved tonight for Pamela
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: Kahuntas's family, just joy, just wonderful. A detective flew to
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: Minnesota today, surprising her family with this news. When she
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: came and sat us down and said they got him,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: I was jumping out of the chair. Or Hi guy,
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: just I couldn't believe it, cheff Lima saying it's not
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: clear why co Hunters was killed, but said genealogy research
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: helped him track down Garner from his DNA. We can
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: now say that we've put closure to this thing, this horrible,
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: horrible tragedy, and the person's responsible is not out there
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: walking the street crime stories with Nancy Grace to Joseph
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, this is what they had. She had been shopping,
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: excited about ending her recruit shop and moving into the Navy.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: She had been shopping, but all of her shopping backs
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: when the day before were laying around her, including about
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: five hundred dollars in travelers checks. Everything was there and
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: accounted for, so it wasn't a robbery. There was a
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: blue cellifan on her right shoulder, a pubic hair on
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: her left shoulder, not her own seamen, staying on her underwear,
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: and a matched the DNA profile of scrapings down under
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: her fingernails. Yellow carpet fibers were clinging to the waistband
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: of her pants. And as you will recall to Joe
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, the first time that fiber anali was used
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: was admitted into court in our country was in Atlanta
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: with the Atlanta serial killings, and the way that happened
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: was a man, a boy from very young to upper
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: teams found dead, all fitting the same general description. And
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: finally the only connection was fibers. Fibers from the carpet
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: of a car and fibers ultimately from the killer, Wayne
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: William's home. These fibers cracked the case. In this case,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: we see yellow fibers on the back of her waistband,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: which means to me that she was assaulted on yellow
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: carpet or her body was moved from yellow carpet. More
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: likely the first. It was particularly on the waistband upper pants,
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: nowhere else on those pants. Joe Scott Morgan explained to
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: me how DNA very, akin to the Golden State killer case,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: cracked this case wide open. The fascinating thing about this case, Nancy,
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: is as with all forensics cases, is that you want connectivity.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: In this particular case, as you mentioned, they did find
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: semen stains. One of the problems that they encountered at
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: that time as there was no DNA database to go to,
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: and so in this particular case, they built a profile
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: of the killer or who they thought might be the
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: killer based upon a genealogy, a genealogy that could stretch
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: back a number of years and look at family connections
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: through the tree. The problem with this old seman like
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: this that you have sometimes it will degrade, okay, and
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: it won't be as viable as it was a back
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: all those years ago. So if they get a partial
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: off of that, they can put it in the ballpark
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: and then they can zero in on a suspect. In
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: this particular case, they were able to get a viable sample,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: a fresh sample from him, and just confirm what they
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: already suspect. I want you to take a listen to
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: our friend a wj XT news for Jacksonville. This is
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: actually Harden, a Seminal County sheriff says, had it not
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: been for the actions of Thomas Garner back in nineteen
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: eighty four, Pamela Kakehanes would have celebrated her sixtieth birthday
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: this year. Garner went before a judge yesterday showing no emotion.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: But while investigators have not said what led up to
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: the murder, there was a murder the sheriff described as brutal.
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: A stranglation marks around her neck, physical damage to her
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: face which suggested a struggle. I know that this woman,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: the victim, twenty five year old Pamelaka Haynes, was one
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: of eight children from Minnesota. She was seeking a new
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: exciting life then from small town Minnesota, and what she
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: got was murdered. Semen stains found on her underwear. So
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: to you, Robin will Lynsky, what can you tell me
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: about the guy who matches up to the DNA and
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: the semen? Well, it turns out this skuy his name
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: is Thomas Garner. He's fifty nine, was living in Jacksonville,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: and he was a dental hygienist. And Nancy how they
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: actually got him was once they created that DNA profile
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: that's been discussed, they had a really good idea who
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: they were looking for, and they were kind of tracking
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: him and he dropped some personal items and a trash
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: bag that were retrieved by the detectives and it was
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: a match seven hundred billion to one that it was him.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: The dental hygienis Okay, that's the kind of numbers that
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: I loved to tell the jury. Seven hundred billion to one.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Now let me talk about what she just said. Nicole
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: to Board former prosecutor now criminal defense attorney Nicole. So
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: this is what I'm hearing, and Robin jump in if
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: I'm wrong with genealogy, and I'm just let's just say
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: ancestry dot com, okay, But very often they use a
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: public genealogy, not a private genealogy. So what happens is
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: you don't just go through and you find the perp.
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: The perp most likely has not tried to find out
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: whose great great great great great great grandmother is in Ireland.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: All right, it's gonna be one of the perp's relatives
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: that has used a genealogy site. So they go in
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: and they get a familial family match, and so you
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: know you've got the family of the perp. Then they
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: have to do a lot of gyrations and go, for instance,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: all the way back to ancestors and then come back
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: down through the DNA chain to find them who they
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: think is the perp. But then they have to get
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: his DNA. So they do a steak out, so they
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: watch the guy. They watch him discard a McDonald's coffee
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: cup or eat a piece of pizza, and they get
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: the pizza crust that he threw away, because that's abandoned property, Nicole.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: They don't need a warrant. So you watch your target
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: and then you get anything that they've touched. A stamp,
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: a coffee cup, any a piece of pizza has been done,
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: and that's how they get the DNA. That's exactly right.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: You got it exactly right. And you know all of
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: these people participating in these various ancestry programs so they
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: can find their lineage. You are really helping add to
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: the database for law enforcements. So bottom line on this
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl,
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: how much DNA does it take? Because I know for
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: a fact one parup was caught because he, as I said,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: eight pizza, the leftovers were still in the box. He
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: throws the box away. They're sitting in there in the
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: pizzaia watching him undercover. They wait from to throw away
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: the pizza box. When he leaves, they get the box
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: and they test it. So just that amount of saliva
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: did it? Cheryl? Oh? Nay, it takes very little. With
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: today's technology. When they swab that pizza crust or the
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: water bottle like we had with boxes, strangler, you're gonna
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: get a beautiful, beautiful match. And what we're seeing now,
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: they're solving cases left and the right by this very methods.
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: They wait for somebody to discard something, they run it
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: through and Santry dot com or twenty four they and
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: they narrow it down to the actual perpetrator. It's a remarkable,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: remarkable too, that we have an art. Well, I've got
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: another question, Dodtor Bethany Marshall, boy, do I need a shrink?
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: How do these suspects, how do they go on to
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: live seemingly normal lies after committing such a horrible crime.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Well Reading Lloyd, who's a researcher in the area of
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: sociopathy talks, has a phrase called the mask of sanity.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: He says that these men put on what's called the
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: mask of sanity, that they actually know that they're different
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: from the rest of society. They know their killers. They
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: know that they don't have the emotions that everybody else has.
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: That they do not want to be in committed relationships.
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: They're often parasitic. They live off other people. They lack
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: empathy or remorse. They're con artists. They have a thin
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: veneer of affability that just cracks in a split second
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: when somebody disagrees with them, but they look and act normal.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: They really do. I think one of the telltale signs
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: with these guys is that there will be a string
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: of broken relationships with an undercurrent of violence. And I
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised if we learn, as this case continues,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: that this guy has either domestic abuse charges against him,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: he's been on parole, he's been committing other crimes. But
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: this guy has not led a pure life. Nancy. It's
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: amazing to me that so often we see them blending
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: in Cheryl mccollin, look at BTK a dogcatcher that should
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: have been a tip off right there, but a dogcatcher
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: with a wife and a family, all active in his church,
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: seemingly blending into the community, when what he really was
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: is a cold bloody killer. Serial killer are the reason
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: they're able to get away with it, Nancy, is because
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: of us. We don't go about our day going man,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: I bet my preacher of a killer. I bet that
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: guy the grocery store raised and murdered somebody. Oh, I
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: bet that guy that's worked at the dentist's office raised
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: and beat somebody to death. We don't do that. We
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: just take people as they tell us, they are sometimes
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: not as we see them, and no better. Think how
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: many women have dated somebody that has abused them and
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: they've made an excuse for him. We do that kind
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: of thing, and we explain odd behavior and we explain violence.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: So a lot of the reasons they're able to get
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: away with this masking, you know, sanity, as doctor Marshall
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: talked about, is because we allow them to. Well. Robert Olenski,
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: isn't it true that the authorities showed Pamela's families family
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: members video of the arrest and the takedown they did,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: And I think it was awesome that they flew out
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: there to do it in person. I know it's cold
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: comfort for this family, but at least it is that much.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: At least she's resting in peace universe. Steve Hartford student
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: twenty one year old Jake Washer faces two counts of
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: attempted murder. This attack occurred inside one of the campus apartments.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Snapchat videos obtained by Fox sixty one show the chaotic,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Hollywood like parade of ambulances and police at the Quad
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: apartments Sunday afternoon. We're all very like shocked and we
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: found out it happened. You know, we just get alerts
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: on our phone saying that we can't leave the school.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: But it was no movie. Police say Washer snapped, stabbing
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: two fellow drama students spend times with chen knife as
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: they were re enacting a scene from the two thousand
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: and four sci fi thriller The Butterfly Effect. I definitely
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: like after seeing his mugshot, like pictures him on ends.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: I've seen him around, but I didn't know him. Washer
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: ran the campus, thrust into lockdown. Did a twenty one
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: year old drama stunit snap and stab two classmates during
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: a re enactment of a scene at a Connecticut university.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, see Grace, this is crime Stories. Thank you
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: for being with us. Jake Washer is believed to have
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: launched into a frenzied assault on two people, stabbing them
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: in the chest and the back during a rehearsal. It's
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: like a TV or a movie program where the star
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: is using a prop but it turns out to be
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: a real knife. Joining me now, Crime Online dot Com
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: investigative reporter John Limley, John, what happened, Nancy? This is
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: a Sunday afternoon on the campus of the University of Hartford,
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: a group of the school's drama students are working on
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: a project for one of their classes, presumably one that's
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: going to be presented in just the next couple of
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: days the coming week. Their assignment is to act out
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: and even film a scene from this two thousand and
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: four movie, The Butterfly Effect. This particular scene is a
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: violent one, one that involves a stabbing one of the students.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: Jake Washer is playing the lead role that was played
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: by Ashton Kutcher in the movie. As the afternoon progresses,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: they finally get to the point where they really want
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: to take the scene all the way through with no stops.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: And as they get to the point when the character
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: played by Jake Washer is supposed to stab the two
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: other students there in the room, he has in his
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: hand of kitchen knife, and instead of just mimicking a stabbing,
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: he actually begins physically stabbing the other two students. And
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: the next thing of students in these student apartments know
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: they are absolutely swamped with medical personnel, police and all
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: sorts of trying to figure out what in the world
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: has happened and to get help for these students. We
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: are reporting on a twenty one year old Connecticut student.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: It is alas she stabbed two other students during a
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: re enactment of a scene and from the supernatural thriller
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: The Butterfly Effect. Ashley Wilcot judge, lawyer anchor. You can
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: find her at Ashley Wilcott dot com. You know, I
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: don't know why anybody always says they snapped. Okay, my
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: friends at Oxy didn't even have a hit show snap.
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: But I've got news for everybody. There is no such
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: thing in the law as snapped. That is not a defense.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: Oh I snapped? Really? Okay, that sounds all You got
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: mad and you stabbed somebody. That's what that is. That's
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: not Snap is not a legal defense. No, it's not
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: a legal defense. Now insanity is. But that means insanity,
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: as you well know, means you didn't understand that your
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: consequences so that you were going to have or in
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: the alternative, that they were wrong. That's not this case.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: He knew he stabbed them, that it was wrong and
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: a bad consequence. You know, I want to go to
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: doctor Carol Lieberman forensic psychiatrists joining us. Carol, what do
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: you make of this? I mean to do this in
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: front of the other students at a play rehearsal. Well,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: you know, he told the police when they first caught
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: him that he wanted to see what it would be
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: like to stab someone. And he said he wasn't acting.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: And then he changed his story and he said he
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: was acting and his emotions got the better of him.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: He was into his character. I acted a little too hard,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: he said. I think actually that there is a psychological problem.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: I don't know if it rises to the level of
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: an insanity defense, a persuasive sanity insanity defense. But he
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: was taken to the hospital for a psychiatric evaluation after
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: he was caught. I mean, it seems to me that
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: this could be something like I mean, he has to have,
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: of course, an intensive examination. But there are things that
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: you psychiatric issue diagnoses where you can lose touch suddenly
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: with reality. You know. Here's the thing. Let me think
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: this through to Stephen Lampley, renowned detective joining us. Stephen Lampley,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure they were not using an actual
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: knife as a prop which means to me he had
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: to bring the knife, which means to me premeditation, which
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: means to me follow through to the logical conclusion this
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: was premeditated. Yeah, Nancy, that's what I think. He planned
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: this all along, and I believe his original story. He
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: wanted to see what it was like to staff somebody.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: And this is not this is not anything new. We
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: looked back at Edmund Kimper. He wanted to know what
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: it would like to kill kill grandma. You probably remember
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: a case back from two thousand and nine, a list
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: of mister Monte. She wanted to know what it would
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: like to kill somebody. I believe he had this planned
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: all along, you know, I mean, help me out here,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: John Lemley, Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. You can
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: find this in all other breaking crime in justice music
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com. John, I doubt pretty seriously that
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: in this University of Connecticut. What school was it, John,
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: University of Hartford, thank you, University of Hartford drama class,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: they had a real knife. I doubt that very seriously.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, was this part of the scene I've never seen?
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Although you say Ashton is the star, and you know,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: if he's married to Mili Cunist, I'm sure he must
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: be a great guy. That's that's what I know about that.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: But question, is there a stabbing scene in the butterfly effect.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: There actually is. In fact, there's actually more than one
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: if you want to get technical, but there is one
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: in particular where two victims are actually actually I want
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: to find out how many times you can were actually
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: into one sentence. Actually, but okay, no offense, go ahead, start.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: I sorry. There are two scenes in the movie that
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: involved actually actually the one is focus at this point.
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: That was the assignment for the students. Takes place in
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: a prison and there are two other victims there in
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: the prison cell with the character. And yes, ordinarily a
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: collapsible knife is used in theater and in movies as well,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: that would cause no harm whatsoever to anyone. But for
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: some reason, jack Washer had a physical kitchen knife in
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: his hand. So okay, let let's just follow that through
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Ashy Wilcott. I mean, I hear doctor Carol Lieberman's forensic
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: psychiatrist saying that he had some kind of a mental defect. Well,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: you know what he had to plan to bring that
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: kitchen knife in. And if I'm correct, I'll get this
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: from Limley. Sounds to me like after he stabs the people,
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: he takes off running. One victim just twenty one years old,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: got two stab was to the chest and four two
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: the bat reportedly, Washer attacks to two drama students and
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: then he takes off, and this is during rehearsal for
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: a class assignment. He reportedly leaves the scene and runs
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: into the woods to hide. Help me out. I mean,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: if you don't know you've done something wrong, why are
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: you hiding? Exactly so, Nancy, with the insanity defense, it
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: has to be right at the time that the act occurred.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: And that's how the prosecution combats insanity defense is to
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: show what was the person doing before, Like you pointed out,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: he had to have a knife, didn't He had to
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: get the knife somewhere, he had to a plan to
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: have the knife, and then what were they doing after?
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: And as you pointed out, in this case, he took off,
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: And that would be my argument that yes, by taking off,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: he knew it was wrong. Clime stories with Nancy Grace.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: He's a commuter, he's not a resident. Washer is originally
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: from California. He was living here on Warrenton Avenue in Hartford,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: but after a tense two hours, police spotted him here
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: near the swampy woods on the edge of campus. He
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: saw police and ran back into the woods. Several more
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: officers responded to the area feverable commands, and the suspect
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: came out of the woods. All this while the bustling
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: campus hosted prospective students to tour the campus for what
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: they call their Spring visit Days. Really unfortunate day for
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: it to happen because there was an accepted students day,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: So there's a lot of people, you know, touring on
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: campus and everything. And today we also learned the names
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: of the victims. They are Brandon Gasparino and Thomas Knee.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Gasparino was the one who got out of the hospital today,
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: while Nie remains in critical condition. You were hearing our
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: friends at WTIC. That was Matt Caron reporting on washer
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: running from the Saint. You know, I think there may
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: be another motive to you. Ashley Wilcot, judge lawyer, anchor
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: at Ashley Wilcott dot com. Ashley, he was in an
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: off campus apartment and he was rehearsing scenes with these
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: other two students. It was a rehearsal for a class
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: assignment on The Butterfly Effect. That was a movie with
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Aston Kuschner and it's a supernatural thriller that according to
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: John Linley does involve a stabbing scene. I'm curious. I don't.
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: I don't. I'm not buying this whole motive or this
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: whole scenario. He goes to their apartment and starts stabbing
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: both of them. Was there some grudge or was there
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: some other motive for the stabbing. It's hard to know,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: but it doesn't really makes I don't know, though. I'm
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: torn because we do have crimes where people say I
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: just wanted to know, just like John pointed out what
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: it felt like to stab someone, to kill someone, to
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: shoot someone. On the other hand, we're gonna have to
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: look into the releasehip between him and these other two individuals.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: He had the lead in the play. Who knows what
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: was going on in terms of their friendship, maybe the
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: romantic interest. We just don't know yet that we have
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: to look at that. Law enforcement will look at that.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: The University of Hartford put in total lockdown while authority
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: searched through the woods for washer Washer, a young student
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: himself with the world in front of him, A twenty
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: one year old Connectut student now accused of stabbing two
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: others on campus during a believed reenactment of the scene
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: from the supernatural thriller the Butterfly Effects. So what scene
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: was that, John Limley, what was happening in that scene?
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: In the scene, the main character, Ashton Coucher in the
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: movie is confronted by two prisoners in a cell and
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: they are intimidating this new prisoner in the cell, harassing him,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, the camera in the movie,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: of course, shoots to his right hand and you can
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: see the tip of a knife sticking out, and without warning,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: the character begins stabbing the other two prisoners they're in
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: the cell. The movie is about a college student, Evan Treyborne,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: and he Treyborne, is afflicted with headaches that are so horrible,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: so intense, he actually blacks out. And then in this thriller,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: while he's unconscious from these migraines, he can travel in
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: time to difficult moments of his own childhood. He can
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: actually alter the past, and in one of these scenarios,
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: he alters the past of one of his best friends
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: named Kelly, who had been molested by her father as
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: a child. But then when he changes the past, it
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: drastically alters the present. Then he finds himself in a
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: horrible nightmare of two different realities, and in one of
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: those realities, he's actually locked away in a prison cell.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: So doctor Carroll Liebermann forensic psychiatrists, with all that in mind,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: I definitely need a shrink because what is this guy
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Washer doing? What character is he identifying with? Because he's
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: going to end up being locked away in a prison
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: cell for life if these accusations are true. Yes, it's
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: life imitating art in all different kinds of ways, because
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: not only was he is he going to end up
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: in a prison cell, or he is in a sense
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: already in jail. So he has been art has been
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: life has been imitating art in a lot of different ways.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: But you know, I still really do think that there
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: is something psychiatrically wrong with him because he was so
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: excited to go to this school to pursue a batched
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: in fine arts. He was coming from California, the University
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: of cal State Fullerton. You know, he wrote all kinds
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: of things on social media about how excited he was
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: his this is his dream to pursue acting. So for
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: him to consciously decide even if they did have some
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: kind of grudge, I mean, yes, it could be something
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: that overwhelmed him, but this ruined his whole This would
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: ruin his whole dream. And he was only at the
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: University of Hartford since this past fall. So you know,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: perhaps in a way there is something also life imitating
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: art in that perhaps these two classmates who were playing
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: these roles of the two prisoners, maybe they were intimidating
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: him in real life or something. It's actually, from what
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: I understand, they were standing in their apartment on campus,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: cooking in the kitchen. So I'm not sure. I mean,
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: doctor Carol Laberman, no, have you ever seen a murderer
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: that you didn't think was insane? Yes, But I don't
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: mean that they were intimidating him just that minute. I mean,
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: if there is, I don't know that there is a
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: backstory that they really were intimidating him before this. But
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: it wasn't a kitchen, I mean there was He wasn't
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: an apartment where there was a kitchen. And I thought
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: that the knife came from the kitchen, not from that
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: he brought it. You know, you may be right, and
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: it was a kitchen knife with a white handle. It
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: was for you know what, You're right, from a University
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: of Hertford campus. My question is when you're re enacting
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: a scene and you were rehearsing. This was an assignment
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: they had. He actually said to police, I was acting
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: too hard. Is that right, John Emley, That's correct. He
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: said that he just let things get out of hand.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: He was a little too into his character at the moment.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: You know another thing, I'll let me go to you,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Stephen Lampley, renowned detective doctor Carroll Lieberman is talking about
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: all of his postings on social media and no mention
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: of him seeming abnormal, having any emotional problems, nothing. In fact,
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: he's excited to go to University of Hartford, no indication.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: I mean so many times, Stephen Lampa. You go online,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: you find uh kokes. I was just researching the Parkland shooter,
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: Nicholas Cruise. You go on his social media, you see
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: pictures of knives and guns and comments about school shootings
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: and death and killing. I mean, you don't see any
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: of that on this guy social media. Well, I answer,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: you don't have to. Just because they don't post on
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: social media doesn't mean that necessarily and that something's going
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: on and there's been their brain. If there's something process
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: is going on, Yeah, he's a killer. That's what's going
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: on in his brain exactly. So, yeah, just because there's
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: no posting on social media, you know, give or take it.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: He was posting on social media. He was posting, and
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: it was all normal. That's what I'm saying. It's it's
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: just because he was not posting about knives for guns.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: You're killing that Now that really doesn't really doesn't tell
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: us a whole And now he wants a bond hearing
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: that's the last thing I want ask you. Willcott see
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: this guy walking across my front yard, right, I know
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: you don't want him out on bond because the reality
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: is whether he has mental health issues or not, regardless
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: of what his defense is going to be, I don't
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: think there's any dispute that he did it, and so
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: until those things can be determined, it's a really scary
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: problem amongst a general population. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: off Goodbye friend,