Latest / The Permission Slip / S2 | E1 Dr. Jodie NewDelman, Doctor of Psychology
Transcript
- S2 • E1 - Dr. Jody NewDelman === Matt Kosterman: Hi, this is Matt, and we're back with another episode of the permission slip. I'm privileged to be here with Dr. Jody Delman, who comes to us from beautiful West Marin, California. She is originally from the Chicagoland area, so we shared that. And, uh, uh, Jody's a doctor of psychology. She's been licensed and working in the field since 1999. And, uh, today we want to talk about, uh, uh, psychedelic adjacent spaces and also, uh, framing of, uh, the dysregulation of people, systems, people and systems and, uh, uh, unwinding and integration. So, Jody, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Thank you for having me. That was a great intro. Matt Kosterman: Thank you. My notes worked. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And so much more. Matt Kosterman: and so much more there. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, we've Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right, Matt Kosterman: already, we should have fired up the mic about 20 minutes ago 'cause we've Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right. Matt Kosterman: down a couple rabbit holes already. Um, and so, um, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So it goes with the psychologist, Matt Kosterman: right, all the, all Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right? All the rabbit holes. Matt Kosterman: All the rabbit holes. Um, so we, I'm excited to have you on because you do bring such a wealth of information from, a variety of, of, of aspects of, of human development and growth. Matt Kosterman: Um, but let's just, I guess start with, I, I always like to start with people's own stories and how did you get, how did you land here? Because I find that there are, uh, many wounded healers at one time, wounded healers in, in, in this work who have found their way. Um, to write relationship with themselves through one form or another, or many, many path. Matt Kosterman: There's many paths, um, to the same place. So just start, kind of start there. Your little, your background. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. It's funny that you say that because I'm not really, I don't really know what my chart says, but somebody just told me the other day that my chart was so clearly the wounded healer, constellation of things. So, um, but thank you for ask. Matt Kosterman: what's Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Okay. It's something about, um. Scorpio rising in the sixth house or something like that. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So Matt Kosterman: I get Dr. Jodie NewDelman: I don't really know, but I always love hearing the experts in, in those arenas, share their spooky wisdom with me. Um, and that's a great segue because, you know, I'm a clinical psychologist, but I love that shit. It's amazing. Um, it's always Matt Kosterman: Sorry to interrupt. I just saw there's a guy that I follow, human Garage who does Dr. Jodie NewDelman: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Gary Leham. Uh, and I just saw a blip on social media where he's worked with numerous billionaires and multimillionaires and he said, know what, all of the millionaires and billionaires that I worked with have in common is that they all consult with astrologists and they all use homeopathy, and they don't want anybody to know that. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: It's, it is kind of this, this, um, uh, subtle body medicine. I think, I mean, homeopathy, I was also, um, a skeptic until you see these things unfold and you're like, wait, what? Um, so, um, so I like to hold space for the things that I, I don't know or I can't confirm through, um, the current forms of assessment and evaluation of things that are scientific. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Um, I guess that's, you know, where there's this segue between the metaphysical and the heart and social sciences is just that question, the curiosity. What is it that we don't know and how do we measure that? So, um, that's definitely an intersection that I think is about it. It is important to integrate. Matt Kosterman: Great. Yeah, yeah, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: Um, so yeah, so tell us, so you grew up in, you were Dr. Jodie NewDelman: so I grew up yet. Matt Kosterman: the area, grew Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yes, I did. And I had, I, yeah, I think I, you know, grew up in a fairly insular community and, um, my parents were divorced when I was about seven, so I lived with a single mom and I had, um, so my father a lot, he was, he was always traveling because he had a, a job that took him abroad a lot. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So I traveled a lot to see other parts of the world that were not so insular, that were a taste of, um, I dunno, global awareness. So I think I'm grateful for that view outside of my bubble, but also, um, I had a brother that struggled a lot with, um, some early childhood illnesses and, um, and then later I think, um. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Behavioral issues, really severe behavioral issues, and then also some mental health and psychiatric issues and, and eventually addiction issues as well. So being the, um, I don't know, responsible, party aware, observer, you know, manager? Yeah. I'm the oldest sister Uhhuh. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. So I think that was, um, without knowing it, my first experiences of learning, you know, coping and, and adapting and being capable, right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Like someone's gotta, Tim's gotta steer the bus, right? So, um, anyway, I think that, that, that's, that's part of it. And I also sort of understood people that were othered or felt different from the norm in their community, right? I didn't feel like any of this was very normal. So just kind of identifying with the other, um, and then seeing people othered. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: All around me, like when it was happening. Right. I was just very sensitive to that as a, as a, uh, an observer of human dynamics at an early age. I think so. Matt Kosterman: dress different, talk different, whatever, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Or, well, you know what it was in retrospect, I think I noticed all the people that were on the spectrum Right. Before we had a name for that. Right. I was just aware. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah, I think I was just very aware of the fact that they were outside an, a range of normal social functioning, and it didn't seem like intentional or anything. It just, I just recognized that very early in social settings. And then I went on to study that as a, you know, professional leader, you know, to study developmental neuropsychology and, and, um, neurodivergence, my first, you know, postdoctoral position was in, um, UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute studying the genetics of autism and the genetics of of, of A DHD and families that had heavy genetic load in those ways. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So, you know, I started off really sort of hard sciencey, um, and really interested in brain structures and how they worked and neuromodulation and the dynamics of the structures. And I do to this day feel very sad and upset by the fact that we all don't have. Coverage for baseline neuropsych evaluation, like early adulthood, baseline measure based on the number of people that have had head injuries or degenerative, um, brain issues, where it would've been really handy. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: It would, it is handy to know what their baseline capacity is, you know, at the age of maturity, like say 25 or 30. Yeah. So anyway, that, Matt Kosterman: for the women. 20 for the women. 25 for the Dr. Jodie NewDelman: you know, well, I mean, but, but you know, in the, as a psychologist, I go into, um, every first session as a bio-psychosocial evaluation, and I, and I don't, I feel like we have missing information about developmental neuro types, right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So there's like neurodivergence and there's, you know, a pathologizing way to understand that. And then there's just the way to understand all of us as having a flavor or a neuro type, whether it creates impairment or not, and how to kind of know your neuro type and work with it specifically. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And impairment against what standard too, right? I mean, oftentimes it's because, uh, it, my view is it's because they don't fit into mold that was created so many hundred years ago of the way our society functions, right? That you're gonna go to school, you're gonna sit in a chair Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right, Matt Kosterman: a day listening to somebody talk to you, so that you can spit it back out again. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right. And so, right, and we know that probably 30 to 35% of the kids in school today have more of a, a dyslexic style, whether, you know, whether they're actually defined or determined or labeled as dyslexic. They have that narrow type, which has a lot of assets. And it has some challenges, you know, challenges, um, that I could get into specifically, and, and what those superpowers are and what, where there are deficits. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And so, um, yeah, they benefit from, from more multimodal style of project-based learning and more visual, you know, accessible, manipulative, manipulative, uh, materials. But, but that everyone would benefit from that too, right? Like if that was just available to everyone, then those who would benefit would have it. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So I think you're right that the systems are based on education and structure that's taught to the teachers and the leaders, right? So we, we have to be able to just educate and inform the, the systems that are, that need updating when we have new relevant advances in science that demonstrates why it's better this way than that way. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, one of, one of my guests a couple episodes ago was Dr. Therese Rowley, who's based here in Chicago, and she's for years, 35 plus years. She's, she's known since she was a small child that she could speak with source that she was, she could see and she could hear, and she's worked in corporate change management for her whole career is being the catalyst and the focus of the change in order to absorb the energy and allow the, the people to, but she's also, lately she's been working with the, um, telepathy tapes people because she can, she can communicate with nonverbal people on the spectrum and is able to Dr. Jodie NewDelman: I think I heard that. Yeah, I think I heard something about that. I, I will now, now that you say that, but I did hear somebody talking about that. Matt Kosterman: yeah. So she's like, you know, they have gifts. I mean, one of, she Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: who you, you send him your photo and money and you tell him what's wrong and he works in the quantum field to Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, and we have, we have systems that would absolutely and utterly reject that as a possibility. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Okay, but here's my point is that if, that, if you're, if you're amenable to that as a, as a human, as a client, as a payer, right? As someone who is going to invite that form of learning and medicine into your life, then that's fantastic. I don't know if it's gonna be the right lane for everybody, but maybe it would be right if all of the people were open to the possibility, right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: If everyone was, we'll say, okay, yes. You know, do you wanna make a decision to have chemotherapy or not? Right? Matt Kosterman: Right. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And some people choose not to based on some strong belief. I. Right. Or some maybe. Matt Kosterman: Steve Jobs famously Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right, exactly. But, but who's to say, who's to say what's right for you? I don't know. Your neuro type, I don't know. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Your, your, your biology. I don't know how connected you are to your inner healing instinct or your capacity. I don't know. Your openness to change your behavior. You know, I don't, it's, and I think that when you have an exchange, another person that's working with you, a healer of some kind that run the gamut from a surgeon to a metaphysical channeler, you know, that, that you are having an, a partnership, an exchange of, of trying to understand this person's body and, and who they're in space and my lane. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Is kind of a thorough biopsychosocial, gimme all the information, let's put this puzzle together. Let's look at the constellation of your life story. And you know, yeah, I could, I can do the differential diagnosis with the DSM if we have to. But I don't think of that as being a hard fest rule. I think of that as being sort of like symptoms that tend to hang together in the, in a, in a cluster. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And yes, taking it within the context and the, the relational context and the cultural context in which it's occurring is all very relevant and valuable without naming it a pathology. You know, it's so yes, but Matt Kosterman: Right. Even like A-D-A-D-H-D. I know there, I've seen a movement to call it A DHC. Right. As a condition as opposed to a disorder. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. And I would, and I would call it this confluence of a neuro type. Matt Kosterman: Hmm. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And a zeitgeist where everything is competing for our attention. And if you like, it would be weirder if somebody was able to like actually focus in those conditions because there's, you know, it's like, like who's not having difficulty focusing? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right? Like, I don't know. Matt Kosterman: hose. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. I don't know anybody that's having, you know, real success at that. Matt Kosterman: love Dr. Jodie NewDelman: But, but, but that's not to just diminish what it is because as I mentioned earlier, you know, my first role was to do the phenotyping for a genotyping study on, um, on A DHD. And those were families that had, you know, it's like if you've been working in the field as long as I have been, and you've had, you sat across your fair share of, you know, a DHD seven or eight year olds, you know, you get kicked in the shins enough and you like figure out how to like. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Work with this person in their own language, right? Like working with the A DHD is, is something that I'm very familiar with. Um, but I, but I think that that, that clinical gut instinct, when you see it in such a raw form, it misses a lot of people. It misses girls that are much more intent to be much more internally distracted, you know, or like spacey, you know? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So there, there's, it is, it is like sort of like an art and science of seeing what's pure and then also being able to differentiate from between what's, what's more likely the result of trauma and stress. And trauma on the body also looks like impaired intention, attention, distractibility, restlessness. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: We see the same exact symptoms across, uh, across PTSD. Yeah. So you have to be able to differentiate, or, or maybe it's both. Right. But, you know, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: but, but frankly, like I also said earlier, it's a shame we don't have a neuropsych on everybody Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: if we were able to kind of put it through more rigorous, um, tests of certain kinds of attention, then we would know if it's like vi visual or verbal information, what kinds of information is, is problematic. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: You know, you can get more nuanced and granular about the treatments when you have, or not even treatments, but just, you know, uh, skill building to be able to, and, and most of the skill building for A DHD and frankly anything that's afflicted with attention, attentional problems is mindfulness. Right? Like, we know that the yogis always knew that, but now we have details data on it, right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. The, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: so Matt Kosterman: monks at the University of Wisconsin with the Dalai Lama. Right. And the, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: yeah, Matt Kosterman: waves and, and, and whatnot. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: totally. Matt Kosterman: Um, I have you, did you ever, do you know who Sir Ken Robinson was, uh, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: me. Matt Kosterman: ed educator, philosopher, I guess from the uk and one of my favorite, uh, Ted Talks, I haven't watched a ton of 'em, but he told this story about this young woman in the doctor's office and her mother brought her in because she had trouble paying attention in class, and she was constantly getting distracted and acting out and whatnot. Matt Kosterman: And in the doctor. They were in the, the, the, the, his office. And he said he put some music on and he motioned to her mother. He said, come, come with me. And they walked out and they left the little young girl looked in through a one-way mirror. And after they left, she got up and she started sort of around the room and twirling and dancing. And he said, there's nothing wrong with your daughter, mammy said she just needs to move. And the woman in question was Martha Graham, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: the famous choreographer and Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: She just needed to move. She couldn't be sitting in a chair. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So if we have client, if we have, if we have, uh, child-centered learning, right? Responsive, prescriptive, constructive awareness of the whole child and their uniqueness is regardless of what, how many kids are in that classroom, you know, and you have, um, you know, intuitive group managers, teachers that know how to facilitate groups, like much like a facilitator, a good facilitator of a ceremony, right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: They're Matt Kosterman: ceremony. Yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Or yeah, or any kind of, just like, just group presence and being able to wrangle your, wrangle your, your people knowing how varied and different they all are in their minds and their bodies, you know? Um, yeah. I think that Chi, child centered Education. Patient-centered, client-centered medicine work, um, client-centered medicine work, patient-centered medical care. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: You know, that really is about, um, contextualizing the, the bespoke healing experience for each individual. And that doesn't, doesn't have to be as hard as it sounds, right. It's not your doctor's job to heal you. It's your doctor's job to, uh, enable your own healing. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, a hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, we, you know, it took me a while, but I now firmly know from personal experience that there is an inner healing intelligence in each of us, and maybe you can speak to bringing that out. I know that it's, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: the, to your point, the doctor doesn't heal you. The, the shaman doesn't heal you. Matt Kosterman: The chiropractor doesn't heal you. Uh, the, you know, the, the, the, the name on the tin of this is the permission slip, and it's Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: that those people give you a permission slip to heal yourself. That the Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: from within Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Well, yeah, and I would push back a little bit to say that it comes from self permission, right? Like, you have to give yourself the permission Matt Kosterman: permission. Yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: to do that. And so I can't give you, I can't give anybody permission, but I can, um, you know, chat about what it would feel like if you gave yourself permission Matt Kosterman: Mm, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: and chat about what it would, what, what stagnation would happen if you don't, Matt Kosterman: Mm. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: you know. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So I feel like that's kind of a good segue to talk about this unwinding concept, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So, so just, um, you know, I use a lot of different frameworks and one of the frameworks that I use is called the Quadri entity. It's from the Hoffman process. Maybe some of your listeners have, have, have gone there. I don't mean to plug them, but it's, it's the Matt Kosterman: familiar. I've heard him. Powerful. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Okay. Yeah. So, and, and I think the reason why it's a powerful, um, program is because process is because it's experiential, right? And my whole reason for being here is to talk about the value of experiential medicine, whether that's a group experience or a medicine experience, or an interactive experience with your doctor, but, but also like a yoga experience or a sound bath experience. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Like how do these things actually contribute to your, your, your health. So, um, so the, the progenity is about your intellect, your cognitive, and then your physical body. And then the third arena aspect is your emotional self. And then there's the fourth, which is your spiritual self. So it's like a diamond shape. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And those aspects of self, I think, um, need more from us depending on what's happening, you know, so you could be at the effect of your emotional self or physically in a lot of pain, or having, being an overthinker and being at the effect of your cognition, you know, or you could be so deeply in your third eye that you can't see the trees for the forest, you know? Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: I feel like there is this benefit of knowing your imprint, you know, like where are, how do you rebalance? Um, or, or, you know, kind of set a balancing fulcrum between those four points, or draw from your spiritual energy if you need that because you're physical, physically depleted. Or ask your intellect to sit on a shelf while you ask your, your emotional self to work with your, with your physical self. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: You know? So it's a concept of sort of dividing our ourselves into those four quadrants. Matt Kosterman: Interesting. Okay. Yeah, I wasn't, yeah, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: know? Matt Kosterman: mind, body, mind, body, spirit. So it's basically also adding emotional Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yes, Matt Kosterman: aspect. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And I think that that really, um, it really is aligned with how we see the neuroscience of it too. You know, there's cognitive processes, there's emotional processes, there's this, um, kind of sense of spirituality and connectivity that we're seeing when you have more of an entropic brain situation happen with medicine, and suddenly you have, uh, as, uh, access to a, a spiritual sense of universality that sometimes you get when you're in nature, right. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Or in, in awe and wonderment, you know, Matt Kosterman: a mystical Dr. Jodie NewDelman: a mystical experience for, for sure. So I think, and some people have that with deep devotion too, with their, with their prayer process, you know, so, or, or even meditation process. So I think that the, in terms of the quad trinity, that is what I. I'm referring to as the, the spirit or even the accessing creativity can also be a real spiritual experience. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So, um, that kind of rebalancing, um, and like I said, unwinding before, right? If you're always going left, then you gotta sometimes go, right? Right. You gotta unwind and regulate the, um, connection to, usually it's a, a thought like unwind, a thought or unwind, a physical movement that you're doing repeatedly, and it hurts, you know. Matt Kosterman: I was gonna, yeah, I was gonna just ask how, you know, you talked about of cognitive, uh, you know, I, I, I identify with being very much in my head. I think many people in today's society would, would you and, and you were when you were describing the, the, the imbalance, what, what would be an example of, say a, a cognitive imbalance versus an emotional imbalance versus a physical imbalance versus a spiritual imbalance? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Well, I'm glad you brought that up. Matt Kosterman: those, how do those manifest? What does that look like in, on the court? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Well, so you know, based on the fact that I'm a clinical psychologist, then I can't deny that we have this very real syndrome called bipolar disorder. Right? I have, I've seen this manifest in front of me. I can tell you that the state of consciousness and the presentation of, of the same person in these two different phases is incredibly different and becomes cemented in place for a period of time that's difficult to unwind. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: Whether, whichever side you're on, whichever pole pole, you happen Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Exactly. It's like these, these, um, concrete, you know, concretized sorts of, of aspects of being, lets say this, this mental status is very evident when you see it flagrantly or even as you see it ramping up, right? So I feel like that is a different presentation and that's when it's really helpful to have, um, coordination between say, a psych, a psych, a psychiatric prescriber, and a therapist, and helping a person, um, get out of this clinical emergency situation. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: That is costing a lot of money. It's creating hospitalizations. It could be creating arrests. It could, it puts people at great risk to their lives. They end up using all sorts of drugs. It's, it can be very scary or it can lead on the other side to risk of, of, of suicide and life threatening behavior. So I want to like emphasize that there's a clinical, in my opinion, very strong clinical need to care for people that are at, at that end of the spectrum of, of, of intervention. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: You know, and that being said, I still like to deliver people into wellbeing and whole being, accessibility, even if they also have this, that they're struggling with this kind of clinical issue. Like it's still, it improves their pro, their, their prognosis. It improves their experience, their quality of life to engage their own healing mechanism. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And it helps them not trigger that process. It prevents them from it. It allows them to see when they're ramping into one of these biological swings, either mania or depression, and allows them to like mindfully activate skill sets that they're developing to sort of, um, delay the onset or prevent the onset or to pull themselves back from a level of what we used to call, like neurosis, winding up. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. So they unwind they can mindfully unwind it on purpose. Yes. Right. It's this middle space. Matt Kosterman: uncle. Yeah. My late uncle suffered from bipolar for most of Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: life. And it was, uh, you know, it was terrible. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah, it's really interesting place to be able to do collaborative work with different professionals that are seeing the same person. Um, so I, yeah, so that's, I, I, I like the idea of just having greater level of collaboration with, with all of the fields of medicine, right. To, uh, chronic pain is another area of interest. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: You know, when you have people that are, Matt Kosterman: So Dr. Jodie NewDelman: I think I, Matt Kosterman: would be, that would be Dr. Jodie NewDelman: yeah, Matt Kosterman: An Dr. Jodie NewDelman: yeah. Matt Kosterman: overemphasis on the physical, right? I know. Uh, uh, uh, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. So, I'm curious, I think I read in your, in your bio that you talked about fibromyalgia. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I mean, it wasn't diagnosed, but I was right there on the edge of that. My whole body was a rock and I couldn't, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: get, I would get massages, you know, almost weekly Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: minutes. And it was like she was chipping away at concrete. Nothing was working. And then it was ultimately psychedelics and unwinding body memory. Matt Kosterman: Recall with Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm. Matt Kosterman: person, Jonathan Tripodi, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: the body literally began unwinding. And that was after a number of psychedelic journeys, including ayahuasca, MDMA, mushrooms, um, Ames. Um, then I was still having pain, uh, severe pain and was still locked up. And it was, kicked off, Jonathan kicked off an unwinding process in a, in a, in a five day intensive that I did right before the pandemic. Um, and it was remarkable how much was stored in there. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. So that was through a physical process. Matt Kosterman: Physical pro. And it's a Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: and a spiritual coaching. It's not just a, it's, it's a Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: point, like you're, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: we're talking about what's coming up. We, we would have a hour, hour and a half conversation before I would go on the table and he would work on me. Matt Kosterman: And so he would prep the subconscious basically for, for what needed to come out. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: That's interesting is priming, we talked about that. Um, I've talked about that just yesterday. We were, I was with a group of people that were talking about priming the mind as your, as by choice. Right? You're priming the mind, you're, and he's gonna be working on your body and your mind is primed to let all of that energy just get released through the process of him going in with his dosing session of the, of the, of the, of the massage, Matt Kosterman: Of the massage of the med Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right, Matt Kosterman: Of Dr. Jodie NewDelman: of the medicine, of the massage. Matt Kosterman: of the, of the medicine, of the massage. Yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: right. And he would. You know, sort of, you could look at it, the spiritual dimension was, you know, setting up the container and burning Dr. Jodie NewDelman: That's right. Matt Kosterman: grass and, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Uhhuh. Matt Kosterman: the music and the whole, uh, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: even going back to my first MDMA journey with a, a, a licensed trauma therapist, who went from a couple of pre-meetings with them in a normal psychologist's office with the sofa, and we sat down and then I came in for the medicine day and the, the tapestries were hung up and the altar was set up and the candles were burning. Matt Kosterman: And I was like, whoa, you know, this is, I was new to this whole thing. I was like, whoa, what Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right, Matt Kosterman: And Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right, Matt Kosterman: they read, you know, the Four Directions Prayer, and I got very emotional around Pachamama and I was like, what the fuck is going on Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right. Matt Kosterman: But it was this preparation because there's, there's an intelligence behind the intelligence, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: intelligence that knows what's up, that knows what needs to be done. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: needs to be given permission and you need to give it permission. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. So they built a portal for you, Matt Kosterman: It was a huge portal. It was, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Uhhuh. Matt Kosterman: it cured me. I had frozen shoulder that the traditional medicine hadn't touched. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: cortisone shot could have been saline as far as I was concerned. $1,200 saline shot. 'cause it did nothing. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right? Matt Kosterman: MDMA session, I realized that that came from getting spanked as a, actually it was after MDMA and, Ayahuasca, that it came from getting spanked as a child Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: and from Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Wow. Matt Kosterman: by the, by the left arm. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Wow. Matt Kosterman: after the MDMA session, the pain was gone. I still had the, the re a bit of restriction. A lot of restriction Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So you had like a memory of that, your arm being yanked up and so, and you had this shoulder connected to the shoulder pain that you, Matt Kosterman: move my arm without Dr. Jodie NewDelman: wow. Matt Kosterman: it would knock me to the ground Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Well, you know, it's very interesting. It's, it's, it's just, it's so undeniable. It's like I, you know, I've had people, psychologists, friends that have written papers on endometriosis and, and, and like all sorts. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Of, you know, the amount of physical, uh, demonstrable scar tissue that builds up after trauma to certain areas of the body. You know, it is, it's kind of undeniable that it's just not a coincidence that you're, that, that someone who has like sexual abuse is having a, you know, 95% per, you know, higher percent chance of having, you know, endometrial issues or issues in the sacral region, you know? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Um, Matt Kosterman: it's, it's Gabor Mate and Vander Colt, right? Body keeps Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right. Matt Kosterman: says no. I mean, there's Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yes, Matt Kosterman: That's kind of my mission with this podcast is Dr. Jodie NewDelman: sure. Matt Kosterman: I'm, I mean, after the MDMA thing, I thought, Jesus Christ, like if we could just get even 10% of the people that are currently seeing physicians for these things that are not, I mean, yes, they're manifesting as physical problems, but there's an, there's some energetic emotional component behind it. It doesn't Dr. Jodie NewDelman: I mean. Matt Kosterman: of a vacuum. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Well, but the, I think the thing that, that, that's striking me, and that's, that is, it always brings me back to like the systems conversation. Is that, is that you're talking about people who have published, you're talking about people that, that teach. You're talking about like preeminent people in the field that, that understand these concepts that put them through, not just to the popular culture, but to the clinical culture as well. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: This is known information. It's just not built into the system of care that's getting delivered to people. Right. So, and or, or even built into the education on how much time, money, and quality of life it would save and protect if we integrated, you know, the, the whole person concept, uh, concept into the, into the system. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And so I think that, I wish, I didn't care so much, but I just, it, it bugs me that this is just, we're all a victim of how the, the payment model works. And if you're fortunate enough to go to concierge medicine, if you're fortunate enough to pay for what it is that you need and you know you want, and you happen to know what you need and want, then you can find that care, you know, but it's not gonna be delivered at scale to the masses until something major infects the sys or infuses the infected system. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I think it's, it's really just about, I mean, it, it sounds trite, but it's about taking your power back and it's not something that gets done overnight. And when I got into getting a concierge doctor, I didn't think I could afford it. When I found Jonathan Tripodi right before the pandemic, I didn't know how I was gonna come up with the $2,500 to pay him and go to Sedona. But I did, it showed up. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: hat over the wall. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: in my body. I saw the interview with him. I was like, oh my God, I need that. I don't know how I'm gonna make it happen. And so for me, it's been a pro, but it happened. And, and, and I actually went and I got trained with him, you know, later, um, because I was so moved by the work. Matt Kosterman: And so I, I mean, my message to people is like, is possible Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: you don't have to give your power to a system that isn't helping you. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: know, not because it's evil, not because it's a conspiracy, it's just what we've allowed to happen Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: it's Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And I, and I, Matt Kosterman: I'm not saying like overthrow it. I'm saying, you know, how do we educate people to know there are alternatives? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: yeah. Well, I think that it's probably a multi-pronged approach and, you know, uh, uh, challenging. I know that there are lots of people working on these, these, these things. And I think that this is part of it. You're on the, you're on the wheel with all of the people, like putting a thumb on the side of consciousness, right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Like on the Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: balancing the scales. Um, but I think that as a consumer, as a person who goes to see, um, their, whether it's a doctor or a facilitator or a provider of any kind, I think it's important to. To, to rec notice, to notice, observe how they care, how, how you need to be cared for, and how they're caring for you and what kind of questions they're asking you, and whether or not they're curious about how you feel and, you know what I mean? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Like how you feel about it, right? Like the bigger context. And I think it's really hard for lots of clinicians to be able to have the time and space to, to care, to, to ask the right questions, you know, or to know how, to know how to weave that together. So as a human being, you can come in and say, well, this is, this is what I need, this is, this is what I need, this is, this is what I think I need. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: This is what's ex, I don't know what's going on. I'm feeling confused, or I'm feeling in pain and I don't know what it's connected to. And they're gonna untangle the. Imaging or, but, but if they say, here, take this pill, you'll feel better. Right? If they say, here, take this pill. You'll feel better if you hear that. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right? Matt Kosterman: that right, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: you hear that Matt Kosterman: un non-ag phrase. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: the question, the question is not like, yes. It's not like yes or no. Okay. Yes I will, or no, I won't. It's like, okay, explain why. Right. Does it temporize a solution? Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Does it, I mean, does it provide a solution that temporize some, some, some pain or some inflammation or some rash or some presentation of some kind, and it will just make it go away, which is amazing. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Like that's awesome. It just goes away. Right? But if you don't know what the. Origin of that rash was, or your chronic digestive problems, or your chronic, you know, um, heartburn or maybe your chronic lower back pain, or maybe, you know, just an overall sense of burning and your entire body and you're not sure why, you know, and, you know, these, these symptoms that people have. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: I, I feel, I feel like, um, you wanna understand the difference between temporizing medicine and going to the root cause. Understanding the root cause. Because if you do understand the root cause, then you have some choices about maybe changing your behavior or your mindset about what puts you in that chronic condition in the first place, right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Like if you're sitting at the desk the wrong way because you're not aware of your posture, right? Or if you're not moving enough in the course of your day, or if you're just eating too much dairy and you're allergic, you know you need to be, yeah. Matt Kosterman: Or if you've got childhood trauma that you're not present to. I mean, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Exactly. Matt Kosterman: which so Dr. Jodie NewDelman: especially that, yes. Matt Kosterman: many people do. And you know, I wasn't present to it. I wasn't even present to the fact that I was sexually molested. That came out later through channeled work. But it totally aligned with the pelvic pain and the, you know, the whole, the whole thing. Matt Kosterman: And I birthed it out during a, during a a five MEO session. Like it was Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Oh my, Matt Kosterman: that's what happened. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: yeah, Matt Kosterman: and, and Dr. Jodie NewDelman: yeah. Matt Kosterman: the, the, whatever they were giving me for the fibromyalgia, I mean, they gave me ciprofloxin because they thought I had a Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yes. Matt Kosterman: And that was what kicked off the frozen shoulder 'cause of the connective tissue tie in. Matt Kosterman: I mean, it was a, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: chain, a disastrous chain. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And so what would've changed that? What would have been at the early, at the early part of that interaction is the early part of that whole process. You know, what might have been an alteration Matt Kosterman: I mean, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: that could have, Matt Kosterman: if, if I look back on it, and my, my advice that I give to people often is, you know, if, if you've had the imaging and you've done the diagnostic tests and you've seen five different people and you've Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: and they Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: to something Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Specific. Matt Kosterman: specific, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right. Matt Kosterman: that's off, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yes. Matt Kosterman: not issue. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: there's, there's something energetic, emotional, there's something behind it. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: But the thing is, is that it's, it is interesting 'cause it, 'cause even though it's not measurable, it is an issue, whether you wanna call it medical or clinic, it's still a clinical issue. Right. It's a clinical issue that's affecting your fascia. It's affecting your mindset, it's affecting your behavior, it's, it's affecting your inflammation throughout your entire central nervous system, you know? Matt Kosterman: Right. But they couldn't, you know, I had like, I had blood work that was off, but not crazy off, you know, they were Dr. Jodie NewDelman: That's right. Subtle. Matt Kosterman: function. It was very, it was all very subtle stuff. And you could, I went to functional doctors. I went to integrative doctors, and Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: me on, on, you know, restrictive diets and then as it, you know, and vegan and all, all of this shit. Matt Kosterman: And as it turned Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: meat was what my body needed. Uh, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right, Matt Kosterman: years as a vegan and then I went with meat. So, uh, I, it was, it was really what turned the corner for me around. I had done a, I'd been in therapy for a dozen plus years. I had Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right. Matt Kosterman: years before, and I had done personal growth work. Matt Kosterman: I had done the whole landmark curriculum. I had sat a 10 day silent meditation retreat, and I'm talking to a buddy who's a little bit older and he said, you know, maybe it's psychological. I'm like, ah, it's nuts. I've done all this, blah, blah, blah. Well, then my pelvic floor therapist happened to touch, do a procedure where she made some marks. Matt Kosterman: She touched the inside of my thigh. I burst into tears. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Okay. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I didn't know what, I didn't know what it was, but I was like, okay, I think my buddy's right. This is emotional. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Wow. Matt Kosterman: that was, that was what then I, like I said, I had done all the therapy. I had done that stuff. That was what tipped the scales for me to then begin to explore psychedelic medicine. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I, I, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Well, it's a great, it's a great, it's a great opportunity to share that sort of experience with more people because it's hard to, he hear someone that looks and, well, someone, someone that looks like had this constellation of symptoms that everything that you said there, there, there were these unexplained medical symptoms and nothing, none of the tests could, could point to anything specific. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And so it becomes this hand basket term like fibromyalgia. Like, okay, you fit into this basket. Although I've heard a lot of Matt Kosterman: disorder, right? Pelvic floor disorder Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. And then. Yeah. Or even if it's like something like a, you know, so like, it's basically we call them sort of, well, we used to call 'em, I don't even know if any of you uses this term anymore, but somatoform disorders, right. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Or, which is a form of conversion of symptoms from psychological to physical. Okay. You'd have people that would have a conversion disorder and they would like, yeah. They were, their anxiety would turn into fainting. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. So the, it, that was a clear allo, you know, allostatic, you know, condition. Right. You would see that somebody, so, so it's, it's not that it's psychological or physical because, because in somatic conditions and conversion conditions, they're, they're paired, Matt Kosterman: It's Dr. Jodie NewDelman: you know, it's both ant. Matt Kosterman: my, my grandmother for, she developed after my grandfather died. Her, her, her, she, her, she couldn't move her hands anymore. She couldn't, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: but both hands. She couldn't. And it went to Mayo Clinic and did the whole thing if Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: it and they kept saying, oh, it's all in your head. Matt Kosterman: Well, you know, of course it's always all in your head, right? I mean, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: everything comes together. But if I look at it, it was like, I think she was just tired of waiting on people Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Hmm. Matt Kosterman: know, if I look at it energetically of, she was always the one doing, she cut hair. She, you know, raised two boys. Matt Kosterman: My grandfather was, you know, the typical, you know, carpenter and man Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And, and she was, and what it allowed her to do is let people wait on her for the rest of her life. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Because she couldn't use her hands. Matt Kosterman: she couldn't use her hand. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Uhhuh. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: lived Dr. Jodie NewDelman: See, Matt Kosterman: She moved into a home and she kind of ran the home. 'cause she was mentally very, very sharp. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Matt Kosterman: Um, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: was meant for other things Matt Kosterman: she meant for other Dr. Jodie NewDelman: and her and her body knew it. And her body knew it. Matt Kosterman: So, I mean, today, could she, you know, could she drop, you know, you know, some mushrooms and get to the bottom of it? I don't know, maybe. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, so, um. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah, I just, I just think about the, the thing that you said about your subtle levels everywhere, like you had a little bit of off here, a little bit of off here. And that is interesting because it's, we're talking about subtle body. The subtle body. I think that when we talk about the subtle body and a lot of, um, other traditions, you know, indi, indigenous traditions talk about that and just like flow of energy through your, your body and moving qi and warming up your, your qi and you know, and just this, this is all. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: This is all very relevant to the kind of clinical conditions that we're talking about here. Yet the answers, the experiential medicines that are most able to access the subtle body illnesses, right, that are mind body connected, are also mind body medicines, right? They're mind body experiences, they're experiences that say, oh, like, okay, your issue is in the mind body, so let's address the mind body directly. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right? Um, Matt Kosterman: of like something like ketamine or MDMA or Dr. Jodie NewDelman: or, or, Matt Kosterman: or, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: or dance. Or art or, or movement or Tai chi. It's Qigong. Exactly. Or, or, or, or. Playing in a band, you know, I, I whatever works for you, right? Just whatever works for people in, in their affinity, in their, you know, um, what, what they're drawn to. And so finding a person's own creative intelligence and their connection to their creative energy and their, their access to awe and wonderment and joy. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And what, in the IFS world, we call the eight Cs, your connection, your creativity, your clarity, your calm, your confidence, your courage. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Um, I'm missing too. That's okay. I'll go. You'll go back. Um, but, but the, but, but those are like important, like. Matt Kosterman: being Internal Family systems. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Internal family? Yes. Like your resources? Yes. Your resources, your, your, your, if yourself was able to be its most authentic presentation, you know, it would be curious and confident and clear and calm and creative and compassionate and self-compassionate. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: All the, all the Cs And what gets in the way of that Or life and minutia and pain and, and trauma and all the parts that come up. Matt Kosterman: and Yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yes. Right. The parts in each one of those parts has a different kind of embodiment sensation. So sometimes when, when we go through parts and we identify the parts that are coming up for people that are bringing, driving the bus of people's emotional or social or relational lives, professional lives, um, and we're doing that kind of parts work and that shadow work with people, I wanna know how that part felt somatically physically. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Spirit, spirit, spiritually, physically, emotionally, intellectually. What is the, what is the constellation of that part? Get to know that part really well. So when it shows up in your physical body, when you're like, oh, wow, I, that is the, that's the map I have for my 11-year-old abused part, right? I feel it in my body. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: You can be mindful of when those experiences are coming into the subtle body and you're like, oh, okay. I, I have a, i I can trace this path. Something happened in my context, in my conversation that the kind of triggered this part of me, and I can, and I can Matt Kosterman: woke this part up. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: woke this part up and, and, and maybe before you can think it or feel it, you might experience as a, as a, a physical pain in your neck, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Or, or an upset stomach, you know, or something like that. Um, for some people that are particularly somatic about it, then it would be, it would be important to know, yeah. What the physical manifestation is in, in terms of where it, where it started. When did you first have that gastric symptom? Right? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Or that Matt Kosterman: to? So, so how, I mean, so you mentioned IFS, so how, how do you work with people specifically working one-on-one? Do you have group work? What is your, how, how do you engage with, with Dr. Jodie NewDelman: should, I should pick a lane, huh? Matt Kosterman: No, you don't have, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: No, I mean, I, yeah, I do, I do supervision, so I have, I have clinicians that work. Under my license and with me. And so I do some training and education for other clinicians that, that, that are kind of founded in psychotherapy, but that are interested in experiential medicine applications and, um, approaches to that work, whether they're, and you know, sometimes, you know, clinicians come in and they're more interested in working with a particular niche like neurodivergence or couples or, you know, um, you know, men, you know, men of a certain age or, or whatever it is, certain cultures. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So I, I think in this next round of, of, of hiring, you know, looking for other, um, associates that wanna come into the practice, that, that looking for people that are really interested in doing experientially assisted work. In one form or another. And having an interest in doing more credentialing and training in the non-ordinary, um, state of consciousness types of medicines and experiential applications that we use. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: 'cause even breath work counts as a non-ordinary, you know, state of consciousness. So, so we like to sort of build custom or bespoke programs for people so they're amenable to them, but also have a network of referrals to people that are doing group work and other kinds of medicine work in our spaces. So really try to be as integrated as possible as a, as a, as an organization, right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Like to try to practice what we preach in terms of integration and, and building bridges to, to other providers that, that do this important work. 'cause we can't do it all right. Matt Kosterman: right. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: we try. Matt Kosterman: right. Well, we might try, but it doesn't usually Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: you, you did say that at your practice you do offer Dr. Jodie NewDelman: We, we offer, we do ketamine assisted psychotherapy. I'm trained in, um, MDMA assisted psychotherapy. I went through the maps training program a couple years ago. And, um, I've done lots and lots of trainings and, um, both receiving new learning all the time, every day. I love learning and I love being a new, using my beginner's mind as often as possible. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Um, but I've also done some training and some, um, supervision of other, other clinical staff, but I'm also kind of like an entrepreneur and an innovator. And I really like, you know, the idea of building some, some like somatic technology, art, creative intelligence interface, AI thing. I mean, I know it sounds crazy, but I, I would like to be able to make something called synesthesia tools where you're really learning embodiment through, um. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Practice and practice in sort of virtual spaces and rhythmicity signatures. I'm interested in rhythm and vibration and how sound can really be, um, uh, a medicine for the subtle potty and awaken healing intelligence. Matt Kosterman: Sound and music is, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: profound. Um, especially in non-ordinary states of consciousness. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: It's a, yeah. Matt Kosterman: yeah, the first, I mean, my first Dr. Jodie NewDelman: It can be the ghost in the machine, Matt Kosterman: yeah, a hundred percent. I mean, the, my first mushroom trip was I threw on Pink Floyd's the Wall, 'cause I Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right? Matt Kosterman: any better. And, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: to where that took me. Matt Kosterman: But then after the MDMA therapy, like the, my musical world just ex exploded. The stuff that I was interested in and the experiences that I had with the music in my body. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: um, so talk, just talk for a minute about if. Because, you know, I think Ketamine has had this sort of interesting trajectory of like going from the underground and kind of, know, anesthetic and then it Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: you know, very popular and then we had unfortunate Matthew Perry. Um, but what, where do I have my own opinions on it? Having, having worked with it a bit at the later of my journey. Where, where do you see it as, you know, we talked a little bit in our preparatory thing, you know, about a decision support tool Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: fit, about Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: where, where do you see its most, most powerful indication? Matt Kosterman: Like who, who are the best candidates, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: um, for it? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Um, Matt Kosterman: Have the best, the best outcomes? I. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: yeah, I mean. In our experience, in my experience, uh, we have used it as a tool to support, um, to support psychotherapy, right? So we will, we will. Um, I, we've been talking about dreams for a long time in my field, right? Like, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Ever Dr. Jodie NewDelman: you know, for since, right? Since, since Freud actually. So, you know, so we've been talking about dreams and dream analysis and what is dreaming. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And I've been interested in dreaming since I was a graduate student, you know, and, and, um. The idea of lucid dreaming and being aware of what you're dreaming, when you're dreaming it, and why do we dream and how do we dream? And, and so many neuroscientists, you know, have brilliantly described to me h how their, their view on dreaming. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And yet we have this interpretive, projective element of the story, of the narrative that comes through every night with people that are sort of, um, spilling their subconscious to themselves in this really slippery way that you're, you can't quite grasp, you can't remember all the details when you're, when you're, when you're through. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And that's sort of like ketamine, Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right? There's this, but, but it, but it's like, uh, it, it's lucidity with, it's more lucidity. It's almost okay. And I don't know if this is experience, this experience is. This is the experience that everybody has. But for many of the people that I've worked with, it, it's a non-specific amplifier of what's there already. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Just like many of the psychedelic medicines are non-specific amplifiers. So I think that that, that when you have that dream content or that subconscious content coming to the surface, um, you know, it always is gonna float. There's gonna be day residue. Like, oh, you might be in a grocery store because you were in the grocery store earlier that day, right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: There's certain elements of the dream that are, that are just like leftover day residue. So, so there's always that, but then there's also this, the music that you're talking about, and when you put the music in this setting, you have a real sort of responsibility to make it about the music, right? Like, like instead of about the person. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So I think that it's important not to. And unintentionally prime something, or if you're gonna prime something, make sure it's aligned with the person's intentions, right? Like if they're looking for more regulation, then I usually use more regulating music, right? If they really wanna deal with like this 11-year-old part and she's, she's got like rage issues, then we might want something. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: You know what? You never know, right? So, so sometimes if you're, uh, able to create mu create music that is bespoke like that for people, um, it can be helpful. But, but it's always good to get feedback afterwards, right? In the integration process. But, so, but the dream content, the Ketamine, I think offers an opportunity to lift some subconscious material to the surface to then be able to process with. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: A, a, you know, trained therapist or, you know, to, to be able to connect that to the issues that you've been unearthing in your preparation sessions and in previous integration sessions. Like, okay, so, so how do we make meaning of the subject subjective content that came to the surface, projective content that came to the surface and it sort of expedites, um, the, the surfacing of subconscious content that would, that would occur in a regular session. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right? It expedites the process. Matt Kosterman: but over the course of maybe 12 sessions or 10 sessions or, you know, like Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Maybe, or some people are so, have such buried stuff, like you're saying it's such, it's so buried in the, in the fascia. Right. That, that, that there's, I've seen people release grief of a, of a, you know, a lost family member that they, that they had never released before. Matt Kosterman: Because Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Like. Matt Kosterman: permission at some level to release Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Exactly. So Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: that was unusual. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: 'cause most people find it to be really pleasant, the experience, you know? Um, but, but I've seen people have good experience, but they were, it was about releasing grief. It was about releasing something that needed to be released, you know, or sometimes it's about just what does it feel like to be in your eighth, your, your self body, like your joyful self body, like, or your non pain feeling self body, like a, a relieved body. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So, 'cause it, 'cause it has the added benefit Yeah. Of, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So the analgesic effect is, is, you know, paired with the music. Like, okay, now this is the imprint, a new imprint, right? That kind of leaves the residue in the subtle mind body. After your session, Matt Kosterman: It's like you're, you're saying to the body, here's what's possible. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: here's what's possible, here's what you. Matt Kosterman: now. Now what do we need to do in how do who we need to be? What do we need to do in normal consciousness Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right, right. Or how do I bring this? Yeah. Or how do I, how do I kind of bridge the gap between normal consciousness and non-ordinary consciousness with expanded, dilated mindfulness, you know, or an interoception and a mindfulness process. Matt Kosterman: And when you guys, or when you're, when you're doing the, the, the ketamine sessions, they're the, the therapist is there with them throughout, throughout the experience Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yes. Usually yes. Usually that's the way we do it. I mean, there are applications where, um, I don't think it's the, the safest way to do self-guided sessions, and that process only occurs after. Someone's like, knows the medicine very well and you are. Yeah. But one way or the other, the process of ketamine is relatively short. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So being with that person is, um, is like holding, holding space. And sometimes there's a lot more interaction than you would expect, but they're usually invited to just receive and be with that medicine. But of course, if something comes up that needs to be processed or they'll, they, if they have dexterity enough to draw something or um, or create something, then I've seen that happen. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And then on really low doses with like, sort of, um, Matt Kosterman: this says, yeah, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: uh, Matt Kosterman: barely perceptual. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: yes. Well, it's perceptual, but it's, um. Yeah, it's just a lighter, lighter, a lighter dose where there's more conversation possible. Um, I've had a colleague of mine work with couples in that way that allows them to have a different kind of conversation with each other. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Um, and also, like you said, primed, um, you know, like priming those experiences with, with an orienting sessions before you go into that, into that work together, and then being able to process that and integrate that afterwards. And it's a co-regulation process, I would say. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So what, what, what would you, what's your advice in terms of what to, if people are, 'cause it's, it's in the zeitgeist, people are aware of ketamine thing. What are sort of green flags and red flags that, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: have people, know, look for in, in, when they're, when they're selecting a practitioner? Matt Kosterman: I mean, I have my own opinions, but you're, you have a lot more expertise about it than I Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Well, yeah. You don't have a handy list here. I wish I did. 'cause I'll know, I'll, I'll come up with like 10 more things afterwards. But like, um, I think that the biggest green flag is that you're comfortable that you trust this person and that they have answered all your questions and that you don't feel pressured or that you, if you wanted to say, you know what, I'm not ready that you know, you, that would be okay. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Um, and, Matt Kosterman: They're not, they're not a car, they're not a car salesman. Like, we need to, we need Dr. Jodie NewDelman: yeah. Matt Kosterman: end of the month. Yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Or that you, that you trust them and that they, they, they trust you. That they trust that you can do this right. That they, that they see that you're, that you are ready. So, um, there's that. And also, you know, um. That you've gone over safety things like, I don't want you to stand up. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Like, stay seated. Right. And I'll help you to the bathroom. And, and, and they've asked their permission. You've, you've gotten permission to touch them if they need support, like if they are, um, in a vulnerable position or needing some extra physical contact, that you've had that conversation and you've gotten consent in advance to be able to support them on what you will do and what you won't do. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: You know, just safety procedures because things have gone wrong. We've seen what happens when they do go wrong and people feel unsafe or exploited in some way. So I feel like that sense of safety is really critical. And that's the biggest thing that I would, I would look for is, is your own intuitive sense that this is the right thing for you to be doing. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Um, but also, um, it's always good to know that you're, that the people that you're working with are doing their own work. Like that, that, that they're, that they're actually, Matt Kosterman: Like how often do you go to therapy? Right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Exactly. I mean, you could ask the Matt Kosterman: tried? Right. Have you tried ketamine? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Exactly. I feel like you need to be able to, to get, uh, an indicator of their authentic connection to this growth oriented work, or especially if it's trauma work that they, that they, that they feel like they understand what trauma informed care means. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And I think that the, the other risk, and, and this is, this is in no way, shape, or form meant to be, um, critical of, of anybody in the field. That's, that's not clinical 'cause 'cause these things go wrong even in clinical spaces. But, but countertransference and transference issues are also incredibly important. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And if you're. A less experienced clinical guide, or if you're a less experienced guide, that's not clinical at all and you don't know what the meaning, the actual meaning of transference and counter transference is. I would say that that's the number one thing to learn about because you represent something to that person in the room and they'll be in a vulnerable position. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: And that means that, you know, you could be, um, yeah, you can, you can be triggered, Matt Kosterman: right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: yet Matt Kosterman: suggestions, you're, you're, you're very suggestible. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: you're suggestible. You don't know exactly what you represent to that person. You don't know what their abuser looked like or why they were drawn to you, or whether there's a power dynamic or a gender issue going on, or a cultural framework that you're not completely understanding their perspective on or even your own perspective on until it presents you. Matt Kosterman: yeah, so the, so just talk, if you can define transference and then counter transference for the, for the crowd here. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Okay. So, so like if, if a person is, is, um, Matt Kosterman: a Dr. Jodie NewDelman: say, say, say a patient or a client is coming to you and they have a issues with controlling women, Matt Kosterman: like, so you have a male, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right? Like Yeah. A male that's coming to me, Matt Kosterman: person, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right. And or they have, or, or, or like an, like a, um, I don't know, someone with narcissistic tendencies or some sort of a, a manipulative abuser in their mind and they are a woman of a certain age. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. And if I am a woman of a certain age, right. Or if I say something that is inadvertently. Matt Kosterman: se Dr. Jodie NewDelman: know, Matt Kosterman: benign, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: seemingly benign or, or even, you know, it's like they, they might be having a reaction to me that has to do with these other factors other than what I've said. So in a ther, that's transference. But in a, in a, in a therapeutic relationship, we talk about that, right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: We, that, that's actually explicit. We're actually having a process oriented conversation about like, what happens, what happened in our rupture there, what happened when you canceled last minute? You know, or what happened when, when I said that and you got teary, you know, like, Matt Kosterman: I said X and you got angry or sad or, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right. Like you're, you're actually doing this transactional work analysis work right? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: In, in, in time. It's pro, it's process work. So, so that's because there is transference and it's important to know what it is because we work at the, it's a tool. It's part of the work, right? It's not something to be avoided, you know, it's just is, and counter transference is the opposite. It's, it's how I am feeling. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Like if I'm working with as a therapist and this person is representing something like in my life, that's like real. Matt Kosterman: a former, or partner or Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right? Or if they're talking about, you know, having their parents getting divorced at age seven, Matt Kosterman: Hmm, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right? Like suddenly I'm like, oh, I know that. Matt Kosterman: I know what that feels like. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Right. Exactly. Exactly. Which is, it's, it's a benefit to my role. As a therapist to be able to be em, em, you know, have empathy about this, but it also could suck me in to believing that, oh, that, that they're just like me, or they should do it the way I did it, or something like that. Matt Kosterman: did it. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So you have this training in psychotherapy school, right? Whoever you, whatever, you know, whatever degree that you have is that these, these concepts are, are, are, are rich and relevant in, in relationships that have a power dynamic, you know, and they do because Matt Kosterman: and the, and the me and the medicine only amplifies the Dr. Jodie NewDelman: it amplifies that and it, it could potentially exploit those things if you don't know what they, what they are, if you haven't named them or, and as the holder of the space, it's your responsibility to know that not your clients, Matt Kosterman: not the clients. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: you know, it's. Matt Kosterman: right. So for like, so to kind of. Put a I mean, one thing that comes to mind for me is you, somebody, a, a a a therapy practice who's basically gonna, you're gonna call them, make an appointment. You're gonna go in for the first time, and they're gonna put you in the chair and give you, ketamine, probably a red flag. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Probably a red flag in my opinion. Yes. Because, Matt Kosterman: don't have a therapeutic alliance, you don't have a relationship. You don't Dr. Jodie NewDelman: and you don't, where's the prep? Where's the prep session? Like what do you do? Right? Like, what are you working on? What are you trying to address here? Right? Is it your chronic pain in your hip? Is it your, your, your, um, major depressive disorder, you know, persistent type, you know, and, you know, where are you in the healing mecca? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Where, where is your contribution coming into the, the treatment plan? Right? Where is the consumer's role in their healing journey? If they just said, okay, doc, plug me. Matt Kosterman: Right. Hook me Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So hook me up. Right. Matt Kosterman: Yep. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So I Matt Kosterman: me. Fix Dr. Jodie NewDelman: fix, fix me, right? That's the red flag. That's, that's it. Fix. When, when you are saying, fix me, 'cause you're desperate to be fixed, Matt Kosterman: yeah, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: and someone says, yeah, Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Come in and we'll do that Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right, Matt Kosterman: Friday. Friday at two, which Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: I'll temporize your pain. Matt Kosterman: yeah. Yeah. Which I also, I think points to the potential problems with some of the at home treatments. Where here, we'll send you these troches without any kind of consultation and you're Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: on ketamine in your bedroom Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah, I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't know those guys. That's not the way that I do it, you know? Um, I think that we're trying to make it accessible to more people, you know, and, and, and mail order. And at ho sometimes being in your own home is, is, is helpful. Sometimes being in the therapist's office is helpful, but whatever the therapeutic relationship is that's established and it's safe, and there's an alliance there, you can have a, a coordinated prescriber working with as like a third member of that diet. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: So there's a prescriber there and there's a collaborative conversation there, and you're, and you're, and you're tracking it, and you're documenting that in a shared portal, you know, or in some sort of sh Matt Kosterman: yeah, I didn't mean to say that it was a blanket, you Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right? Matt Kosterman: flag at home is bad, but this prep work, this priming of the pump, if you will, and, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: the support after the fact, 'cause big things can come out of these session. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Well, I think that's the dur. I think that that's where the dur, where we see durability because you are gonna change your mind this, these medicines, especially if they're longer form medicines and you're spending six or eight hours in an experiential state, you have a longer neuroplastic window to make more changes and integrate more changes. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: But what are those changes? And this offers partnership in that process to say, okay, let's, let's figure this out together. Right? Let's see. You get your mind body integration working through the emotion, the spirit, the physical, and the intellectual. Matt Kosterman: Right, right. As opposed to like, I go on the web and I go click, click, click, and they send ketamine to me and I on the Ketamine for a little while, and then I go back to my life. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah, it probably would be enjoyable, but I don't know if it'll be a treatment. Matt Kosterman: Effective. Yeah, I mean I found that my first, my first mushroom experience when I kind of broke through the portal and I thought, okay, my body's flying all over the place and I'm seeing the Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right, Matt Kosterman: and it was very Dr. Jodie NewDelman: right. Matt Kosterman: then I went back to my life and I didn't do, I didn't have a therapist at the time. Matt Kosterman: I didn't do anything different and my pain continued. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, case in point. I think that we all need a little help, and maybe I'm not that, um, religious about which kind of practitioner anyone needs. I think it really, um, people have liberty to shop around and, and find, find their right experts. I just think that, um, across the board, whether you're licensed or not, certain ethics and, and, um, concepts ought to be fundamental Matt Kosterman: Sure, yeah. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: in my opinion. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. No, I, I agree. And that's that part, part of the, you know, sort of the mission of this podcast is Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: is to make, you know, to, to, to date. I think you're only the only second person that I've had on the show that I haven't actually worked with. all been, there's been, I dunno, 15 or 16 episodes and I've worked with all of those people in some way, shape, or form. Um, but it's to, to, to bring these caring souls and out and make people aware of them. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to see, I'd like to see, um, a different kind of clinic of the future, I guess. You know, Matt Kosterman: does it Dr. Jodie NewDelman: like an, it looks like experiential prescriptions, right? Like it looks like a place to parse what you need, who can help. Have a multimodal, multidisciplinary team that talks to each other, that can, can send you on the, a, a path on a healing journey that, um, involves a set of kind of linked professionals that work together in different spaces, Matt Kosterman: And Dr. Jodie NewDelman: in different, Matt Kosterman: experiential prescription might be, you're gonna do five rhythm them's dance every Sunday. Right. Or you're Dr. Jodie NewDelman: the thing that they need, they might, yeah. 'cause they might prefer to go do sculpture every Wednesday, you know? Matt Kosterman: sure. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Um, you know, I, Matt Kosterman: too, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: or Matt Kosterman: But it's, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: depending on what they're getting out of it, it really, it really depends. Or, or actually even who's regionally available? Who's accessible, who's doing what, what's calling to you? Dr. Jodie NewDelman: What, who's out there doing something that you can experiment with, you know? So, um, what wakes, what wakes up your, your mind, body, and kind of. Teaches you about you. So yeah. Having a a, a, a group of collegial, interprofessional, um, you know, sensation based practitioners that are doing somatic work and tethered to traditional medicine seems I an ideal opportunity to make a bridge to build bridges. Matt Kosterman: I look forward to coming to your clinic like that when it's open. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Okay. It's an aspiration. We're gonna have to pull it together with some focus. I need to get focused. Yeah, Matt Kosterman: it's, it's the year of the fire horse, you know. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: I know. Matt Kosterman: Giddy up, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Kitty up. Yeah. No, I, I am definitely a Lima Cuspy. Sagittarius, I'm a Solstice baby. I am very familiar with the fire, Matt Kosterman: Uhhuh, Uhhuh. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: so, yeah. Matt Kosterman: Well, amazing. Jody, thank you so much Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Mm. Matt Kosterman: on, taking the time. It's really been a pleasure Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Well, thank you for having me. Matt Kosterman: yeah, explore all these fun things. I can talk about this stuff all day. I love it. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Yeah, well hopefully, um, you'll help shift some systemic mindsets out there. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, I hope so. Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Okay. Matt Kosterman: Alright, Dr. Jodie NewDelman: Thank you so much, Matt. I appreciate it. Okay.