Latest / The Catholic Current / Does the Church Have a Hearing Problem? (John Horvat) 10/27/26

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Does the Church Have a Hearing Problem? (John Horvat) 10/27/26 · The Catholic Current

0:00
This is The Catholic Current with Father Robert McTeague.
0:05
We've gotten to the point, which is kind of absurd, it's like a Marx Brothers
0:09
movie, right, where you say synodality is the central characteristic
0:13
of the Church. Synodality is experienced at synods. The next synod is canceled
0:18
because it's not sufficient to express synodality.
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So we invent a new thing called ecclesial assemblies. Wait a minute,
0:25
are we in a Lego, Legoland where we get to tear the castle
0:29
down and then build a firehouse and say it's a castle? I mean, this is
0:34
crazy. Praise be Jesus Christ. This is Father Robert McTeague of the
0:38
Society of Jesus, your daily host for The Catholic Current, where we bring Christ to
0:42
the world and the world to Christ. You're listening to us from the Station of
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the Cross Studios, your local radio station, the iCatholic Radio mobile app,
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where we proclaim the fullness of truth with clarity and
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charity. As always, let's start with prayer. In the name of
0:56
the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Almighty God, through the intercession of Saint Ignatius
1:00
Loyola, we ask that you pour forth your Holy Spirit upon us, a spirit of
1:03
discernment, they might hear your voice and obey your command. In the name of
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the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Friends, have you ever heard
1:11
of selective hearing? Uh, this is— I'll
1:15
give you an example. I mean, my dog could have been in the attic
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and she could hear a cracker fall off the curb and land on the ground,
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but when you told her to get off the couch, she was supposedly
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sound asleep and she couldn't hear you. I think that
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the listening church might be a practitioner of
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that kind of selective listening. There's listening, listening,
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listening, hearing, hearing, hearing, dialogue, dialogue, dialogue,
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unless you're inclined to say something that people don't want to
1:49
say. And I think I'm not the only one who thinks that. My returning guest
1:53
is Vice President of the American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family, and Property,
1:58
and he is a great friend of the show, and he's the author of the
2:02
very important book return to order. John Horvat, welcome back to The
2:06
Catholic Current. Great to be back, Godfather. John, does the
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Church have a hearing problem? And I want to focus especially on
2:14
immigration, because it seems that immigration— there's a
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lot of people who are not being heard and other people who seem to be
2:22
disproportionately amplified. What's going on here?
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Yes, definitely. I mean, the Church should act as a unity should be
2:30
able to come together. The spirit is supposedly,
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you know, directing the church to where it needs to go.
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But we do see this bifocal attention span,
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you know, where a good portion,
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especially at the hierarchy, I unfortunately have to say,
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especially the leftist hierarchy, where they are, you know,
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coming out in favor of immigration, even mass
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immigration, even illegal mass immigration. And,
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you know, when you go to the pews, it's exactly the opposite.
3:02
There's— it's 2 to 1, even 3 to 1,
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you know, against massive
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illegal immigration. So somebody's
3:13
shouting and trying to be heard, but the other person is not listening.
3:16
Well, you know, I know the other day a senior Catholic
3:21
member of the People Who Should Really Know Better Club said that advocacy
3:24
for immigrants is an act of
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worship in the truest sense. That's the exact
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quote. That almost raises it to the level of a sacrament,
3:35
doesn't it? Isn't that a strange thing to say?
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Yes, we've, you know, we've taken this, the immigration
3:42
problem, and inserted it into a narrative. And that narrative is a,
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although it's not as popular as it once was, but a liberation theology
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narrative that puts the poor, the suffering, the marginalized
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in a Christlike position and says, well, you know, it's a redemptive
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suffering that's that, as is, you know, that we have to,
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we have to recognize and help
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along. Right. And I, I'm going to bring up an ugly
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subject. We talk a little more in the next segment. Some people believe that
4:17
the reason why the American hierarchy is so enthusiastic about
4:21
immigration in all its forms is because the church might
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have a financial interest.
4:27
Have you heard words to that effect as well? I mean, I think that
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factor is definitely there, but I don't think it's the primary
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one. Okay. Because these kinds of things are,
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you know, the money is an important factor,
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but it's not all— it's not the main factor in most debates.
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Money, to reduce it to money, is,
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I think, doesn't really express the views,
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especially of the more radical ones who really could care less about money.
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You know, the ones who are really into it and who see it as an
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ideological issue, a theological issue. And so
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I think they are very sincere in their beliefs
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in this. Others might go along with it for the money, but I don't think
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it's the major issue. Well, it seems to me that immigrants
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are given a kind of exalted status.
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I mean, you would almost think that all of them are immaculately
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conceived and that no one comes across the border with
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ill will or bad intent. Is that
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just— is that an exaggerated rhetoric or is that a theological naivete?
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Well, I mean, it is according to their theology that, you know,
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it's based on the intrinsic dignity
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of the human person. But I mean, you can
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lose that dignity. You can also, you know,
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injure that dignity by doing things that are
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against natural law or things that that's
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the way God wanted us to act, you somehow injure that dignity.
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And they don't consider that. They just consider it regardless of what you
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do, you have this intrinsic human dignity, which we do. But you also have
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that moral dignity that you have to somehow— you
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have to support. You have to do something to
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merit that dignity. I mean, if a person is a
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thief, I don't have to respect his, you know, certain aspects
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of his life. I don't have to treat him extremely well because I
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know I will eventually suffer from that. Right. I think
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part of— I think what's driving this is the exaggerated
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cult of social media. There are so many opportunities
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for virtue signaling. I remember seeing a
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number of prominent high-ranking clergy having
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Mass at the border wall. And, you know, putting the
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Blessed Sacrament through the wall like they were putting
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a coin into a slot machine at Las Vegas.
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But these same clergy, as far as I've looked,
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none of them have been photographed with families mourning
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someone who's been raped and murdered by people who entered the country
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illegally. I wonder why that is. Would you be willing to speculate
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on that? Well, I mean, it is that narrative, that liberation theology
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narrative that goes against not only just— it goes against
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our society as such, as it is structured, the capitalist
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idea of society. So, you know, that they,
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they will want to necessarily will want to highlight
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this, this so-called suffering, these victims of the system much
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more than the victims of those who are,
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who are using the system to Illegally and
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massively. Well, you see, that, that's the other thing that, that I think
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we need to consider. I, I wonder if, you know, I don't
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know, we, we had the, the, the laws, immigration laws that the
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Vatican has, where, you know, if you're caught entering illegally, you're— there's prison,
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there's fines, you're barred from entry for years,
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and you don't get free housing, free food,
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free education, free medical care if you're found to have
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entered the Vatican illegally, and you're not asked to bring your family there either.
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It just seems to me to be rather, rather curious.
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Is it fair to say that if the welfare state
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were not such as it is in the United States, that the United States would
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be less of an attractive place for massive immigration?
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Oh, definitely. Definitely. We have succeeded in creating
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an economy and a culture
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which is open and prosperous and successful.
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Success attracts. And so, and plus
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there is that social media aspect which you call, which in their
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countries, the social media is saying, go there, you know,
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you'll get all this free stuff. So you definitely,
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you know, that's, I think that's very much part of the problem.
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And, you know, this is a problem not only for the United States, it's a
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problem in Europe as well. I'm thinking especially in
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the United Kingdom, where you're more likely
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to suffer jail time for posting on social media that,
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you know, that is everyone arriving on our shores come with goodwill. You're more
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likely to have armed policemen banging through your
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door than if you are a recent arrival,
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a newcomer, and you've been caught raping native children.
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There seems to be a two-tiered justice system in Europe.
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There was a horrifying case. I think it was in Holland or
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Germany where a newcomer, a recently
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arrived cultural enricher, had raped a native woman, but he
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didn't get much of a jail sentence because the judge said the rape really didn't
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last very long for the woman to have a grievance.
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And I can't imagine that having been said if the assailant
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were native-born. And as someone who has spent
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many years in academia, I wonder where all the academic
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feminists were. Uh, those who say that
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they're— I am Jane Doe, identifying with the woman at the
10:18
center of the controversy at Cornell University. Where are they in response
10:22
to all the well-known grooming gangs that, that have taken place
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not only in the, in the UK, uh, but also on continental
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Europe? And again, I don't see very much sympathy
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being generated for people whose property have been destroyed,
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whose lives have been altered, and who've had family members raped and
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murdered by extremely violent people who should not
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have been in the country in the first place, not to mention the drug cartels
10:51
setting up shop in the United States. So the listening seems selective
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in a way that strikes me as egregious. Friends, when we come back,
10:59
we're gonna continue our conversation with John Horvat of Tradition, Family, and Property.
11:03
We're talking about does the church have a hearing problem,
11:06
especially regarding the issue of illegal immigration? Immigration.
11:10
Remember, rallying cry here at the Catholic Current is Christus Mundo, Mundus Christo—
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bringing Christ to the world and the world to Christ. We do it because our
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Praise be Jesus Christ. This is Father Robert McTague of the Society of Jesus,
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guest today is John Horvat of Tradition, Family, and Property, and we're talking about
13:00
Does the Church have a hearing problem, especially regarding
13:04
immigration? John, you know, one of the ways that I think
13:08
the issue needs to be addressed is to look at facts
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and to look at numbers. The evidence that I've seen shows
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that a disproportionate number of people who come into
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the country illegally end up on welfare.
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Very often, they vote illegally, which is a whole can
13:26
of worms, and they commit a disproportionate number of crimes. These are the
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numbers that are being sent to me. Also, housing costs go up
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and the value of labor goes down,
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especially at the lower rungs of the economic market.
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What does that do to the economy as a whole? And what does it do
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to the economically vulnerable who are already here? Well,
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definitely, it would— it has its impact. The economy
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is a unit as such. And when you introduce foreign elements into it
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and elements that don't fit into, let's say, what has
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been established, the system that's been established, you'll have people
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sidestepping the system and basically
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making it weaker. So that's what we are seeing. There is a
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weakness. With those who come in legally, there is a system in
14:15
place, and rightly so, because we need to deal with all the problems that come
14:19
with the system. But when you don't have a system, that's when abuses can easily
14:23
come in. And I think we'd also have to talk about the
14:27
issue of education as well. I mean, it's very difficult when you have
14:30
children who don't speak English as their first language,
14:35
and And then when you have children from scores of countries, for example,
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I think it was the Los Angeles School District brags that there's, you know,
14:42
just dozens and dozens of special tutors
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they've had to hire to accommodate these children coming
14:50
in from all over the world. Who pays for those tutors?
14:54
Yeah, I mean, obviously it is the school, well, it is the school district that
14:58
has to educate them. And just, you know, I remember seeing the
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scenes during the Biden administration of, you know, just thousands and thousands coming
15:06
over and you just say, well, these schools do it? All of a sudden,
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you're just, you know, you're dumped on your doorstep.
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You have 50, 60 people that you didn't have before and
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something that you haven't made plans for. I mean, it just causes chaos,
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chaos all over the place. And if you're hiring, let's just
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say arbitrarily, you hire 10 translators,
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that's a salary, that's health insurance, it's vacation time,
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it's HR process, that ends up being real money.
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That's money that doesn't go to, say, an athletic program
15:41
or, or building a library,
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or it goes to debt, usually for a future generation
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that didn't vote for any of this. Doesn't that violate
15:53
basic tenets of justice? Yes, definitely, because you are—
15:58
it definitely does that because the
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idea is that you have to have a certain unity, the desire
16:05
for unity. A society must have its unity. And by, you know,
16:09
hiring all these translators, you're sending the messages you don't have to integrate,
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you don't have to be part of that unity, you can be what you already
16:16
are and still reap all the benefits,
16:20
but not, of course, the responsibilities. Right, right. And I think that
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issue of responsibility is really important. You know,
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if you kill the goose that lays the golden egg, you have one really big
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dinner, and then everybody goes hungry.
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And my perception is that if you hear lots of folks talking about these issues,
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Apparently the only Catholic response to any
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physical need, to any corporal work of mercy,
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is free stuff for everyone to infinity.
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I'm not a mathematician, but that's not possible, is it?
16:55
No, no. And even in the history of
16:59
the Church, it hasn't been that way. Even the missionaries, sometimes they would be tempted
17:04
to just give those who they were proselytizing with to say, well, here,
17:07
have all this free stuff. And eventually the missionaries understood,
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no, you have to somehow connect that to values
17:15
and money and the whole economy of things. Giving people free stuff
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does not end up well or does not convert people.
17:22
They need to— people need to be exposed
17:25
to the issues of justice and the things
17:28
that are associated with it. I'm also mindful of
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the fact that, you know, there are people who are, you know,
17:36
native-born American citizens who've been in the country for a
17:39
very long time, and they're at the lower end of the
17:43
economic scale, and if you
17:47
have the labor market at the lower end flooded with people who
17:51
are willing to work under the table for less money,
17:54
that suppresses wages. What does that do to ordinary
17:59
Americans who are at the lower end of the economic ladder? Well,
18:02
definitely there is a problem of injustice here when you take
18:06
away from them that which they need or that which they have a right to.
18:09
In this case, a labor market has been defined by supply and demand
18:14
and by all sorts of factors that decide wages,
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and you enter a new factor in that just throws all that out of—
18:22
throws it all out the window and says, well, we're just going to work on
18:25
our own system. And that's what we're seeing. The basic building
18:29
block of society the church has always taught is
18:32
the family, and it's taken for granted that it
18:36
was most desirable is for, you know, young men to marry,
18:40
to beget children, and to be able to support the
18:44
family that they've begotten. And one of the most reliable ways of
18:47
doing that is to start a small business of
18:51
your own, something that you can hand down to future generations. That's the classic ideal
18:56
model. But if we have a debt structure and then
19:00
a welfare state supported by taxes, onerous taxes,
19:04
and then we have on top of that a flood of people
19:08
who are not paying into the system, doesn't that all— I don't want
19:12
to say conspire, but contribute to the suppression of the ability
19:15
of young men to start families and to start the businesses to support
19:20
that family? Isn't this ultimately a destructive process to
19:23
society as a whole? Well, definitely, yes. And we could add to that that
19:27
they're already starting out with a handicap by the education system
19:32
that has turned them into immature people and not, you know, not being able
19:35
to deal with the realities of life. One more thing like this is really,
19:39
it's amazingly, it's amazing disincentive
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to do what they need to do to be
19:48
part of the Church and to contribute to a just and
19:52
holy society. Also, there's a question of what—
19:56
I think we really do have to talk about cultural assimilation.
19:59
I know, for example, I believe it is in Texas, is one
20:04
of the largest Hindu shrines. I forget what
20:07
the deity is that it is. But anyway, this thing is 3 or 4 stories
20:12
tall. You know, as a Christian,
20:16
I just scratch my head. Am I obliged to
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do cartwheels, that people who do not believe in
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the one God, the triune God, are establishing
20:29
themselves? It's a head-scratcher for me. What is
20:33
my obligation as a Christian when I see this happening in the United States?
20:37
Well, I mean, our goal toward those people is
20:40
conversion. We're not there to keep them going
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and to say, well, you just, yeah, you do what you want to do and
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we'll do what we want to do. We want the salvation of souls. And so
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that's what, that's what culture helps us do, is to create
20:55
the conditions so that the maximum number of people can save their souls.
20:59
And this sends a different message altogether. It says, well, there really is
21:03
no idea of salvation of souls. It's all about money.
21:06
It's all about whatever you want it to be. I've been looking
21:10
for official statements about welcoming migrants and then
21:14
converting them or evangelizing them.
21:17
I haven't found much statements. Am I looking in the wrong places?
21:21
No, I don't think you'll find it. I mean, it's definitely not
21:25
there. I mean, and it should be. I mean, if we really want to help
21:29
everybody, those who are coming in, that should be the primary
21:33
concern. The salvation of souls is the primary concern.
21:37
And the data that I— and we see this in Pew Research and others and
21:40
so on. There's the idea that especially if we
21:44
have folks come in from South America, you know, they're nearly all Christians.
21:48
A great majority of them are Catholics. That's going to bulk
21:52
up our parishes and our dioceses that have been kind of withering on the vine
21:56
in recent years. The trends that I've shown is that they either leave
21:59
the church and become evangelicals or Pentecostals, or they
22:03
go full-on American in just a generation
22:08
and stop practicing any faith at all because they've become
22:13
secularized consumers. Have you seen that data as well?
22:16
Definitely, it's there for sure, because if it were not the case,
22:20
then we would— we've been in pretty good shape. We've had a lot
22:24
more Catholics in the pews than we do today and more priests and
22:27
more everything, you know, because the Latin American has— did
22:31
have a very strong faith. But I think today it's pretty universal.
22:35
I mean, it's— we used to— we tend to think of Latin America as
22:39
a bloc that's, you know, also a very Catholic bloc. But they have just—
22:43
they have— they are under the same influences that we are today in the modern
22:46
world, and it's destroying their faith as well. I remember reading a
22:50
newspaper and it was right before I left for London. So it must have been
22:53
in late 1994. And interviewing a
22:57
Brazilian evangelical pastor who started a church mostly with family members
23:00
in the '50s, and now in the '90s was planting a new church 3
23:05
and 4 times a week. And he said, the Catholics made a
23:09
preferential option for the poor, and the poor made a preferential option
23:13
for Jesus. And that's why the evangelical churches
23:16
and the Pentecostal churches are growing so dramatically
23:21
in South America. And I think that's a whole other
23:25
avenue of topics that needs to be explored, and maybe we can do
23:29
that sometime in the future. But it seems to me that the,
23:32
the so-called listening church has stopped listening to
23:36
the people who say, you know, we're not just an NGO,
23:40
and we're not just the, the Newman Society for
23:44
the United Nations. We really are meant to bring word and sacrament to
23:48
the whole world and make disciples of all nations.
23:52
And that message, that gospel, that proclamation seems
23:56
to be not heard. And not very welcome either. Friends,
23:59
we come back, going to continue our conversation with John Horvath of Tradition,
24:02
Family, and Property. We're talking about the listening church not
24:06
listening so well, especially when it comes to the issue of immigration.
24:10
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Support us at thestationofthecross.com. We're talking about,
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does the church have a hearing problem? Does the listening
26:00
church want to listen when the topic is illegal immigration?
26:04
My returning guest is John Horvath of Tradition, Family,
26:07
and Property. John, we don't have to invent the wheel. The church
26:10
has a perennial teaching on these matters.
26:14
It talks about an order of love, and we can
26:18
talk about family, nation, and stranger.
26:21
And I think the stipulation is that no one of these may be idolized
26:26
and no one of these may be ignored.
26:30
Is that a fair place to start? Absolutely. Yeah,
26:33
it's— we are called to love our neighbor, but neighbor is those who are most
26:37
closest to us. And then from there you go, you go outward from there.
26:40
Not everybody is your neighbor. It's not possible for for everyone to be a neighbor,
26:44
but the neighbor is concentric circles of people
26:48
who are around you. And so we need to concentrate
26:53
on those, especially those around us. You know, I think it was an old Peanuts
26:57
cartoon. One of the characters said, you know,
27:00
I love humanity, it's individual people I can't stand.
27:04
I think we have to be wary of anyone who suggests
27:08
that we treat those nearest to us as, as an
27:12
abstraction. You know, for example, whenever we talk about abortion,
27:16
I say never talk about abortion in general. Talk about a woman with a name
27:19
and a blood type and talk about the sex of her child and where
27:24
she is in her pregnancy, uh, etc. I mean, there are
27:28
people who are, you know, literally at our table,
27:32
and, uh, we do really do have to attend to
27:36
them first. And if we have a, a,
27:40
an onerous this tax system, doesn't that preclude families
27:44
from caring for their own? Right. I mean, families caring for
27:48
their own, that was the way, you know, we used to
27:52
deal with so many of these problems, you know, especially the welfare problems where
27:56
you had a support system. The better the family, the easier it
28:00
is for those things to happen and you don't have to rely upon government.
28:03
And so, yes, that's what we need. Now, I've also,
28:07
as you can imagine, I am the recipient of many oral traditions.
28:10
And sometimes I find myself in the company of people who are darkly
28:15
cynical, and they tell me a story that goes something like this,
28:18
and I want to get your, your take on it,
28:20
that religious communities and parishes
28:24
and dioceses which used to be very robust
28:28
supporters of the Corporal Works of Mercy, they've been
28:32
in a death spiral demographically and financially for
28:35
generations now. And the bureaucracy of the Church,
28:39
as our Lord says in the parable, too weak to dig ditches, too proud
28:43
to beg. Someone's got to feed them anyway. And so
28:47
if you outsource the corporal works of mercy to Caesar,
28:51
the Church becomes an NGO, and we do good things
28:55
after we take our administrative costs and salary costs off
28:59
the top. So if the purpose of a system is what it does, is it
29:03
fair to say that part of the enthusiasm for welcoming
29:07
the stranger, legal or illegal, is that's
29:11
the only way to support the bureaucracy. Is that too
29:15
dark, too cynical a read of the data?
29:19
Well, I mean, definitely helps. You know, you do have it.
29:23
The data does somehow deal with that. But,
29:27
you know, what's lacking here is love of God. You know,
29:30
when we come down to it, But the love of God is what should motivate
29:34
us to do these things and to overcome
29:37
the obstacles. And the path of least effort
29:41
is saying, well, let the government do it. Right. So what I
29:45
know of at least one diocese where they said, you know what, we're not
29:49
taking government funds of any kind anymore. If we're going to be charitable, we're going
29:53
to do that on our own. What do you make of that approach?
29:58
It's probably, it's surprising because when you have that love of God,
30:01
it's very contagious and you will, and it will,
30:05
you'll find the money. The money will come. I'm reminded
30:09
of the Diocese of Wichita, I think. Yes, Wichita.
30:12
They have free education and they're booming and they
30:16
have the greatest per capita replacement rate of priests in the country because
30:21
they confided in God and said, well, we're going to do this.
30:24
The way it should be done. And so I think we need to do the
30:27
same with other things as well. I want to talk a little bit about culture
30:31
and the common good. The common good is bandied about in
30:35
a way. The way that I see it most often used is the common
30:38
good means that we're going to take other people's stuff
30:43
and give them to people whom we don't like because, you know,
30:46
common good. My reading of Aquinas, and correct
30:50
me if I'm wrong, please, is that the common good is ordering a
30:55
just society so that we can attain
30:59
heaven, that the common good is a culture that helps us
31:03
to live and die as saints. Is that an accurate reading
31:07
of the Church's view of the common good traditionally? Yeah,
31:10
absolutely. It's a shame the term has been hijacked because
31:14
it is, it's a philosophical term. It defines what a society,
31:18
why a society It's for the common good.
31:20
And I, you know, when some time ago I was using the term all the
31:24
time and all of a sudden I realized, you know, you somehow have to qualify
31:28
that now. It didn't used to be that way. But right, common good is
31:31
still the common good. It's still what we need to think about. But we
31:36
do need to sometimes put those qualifiers in. I want to go back
31:39
to the issue of cultural unity that you mentioned in the last segment,
31:44
the issue of of assimilation. Uh, there was
31:47
a time when America was spoken of as a melting pot.
31:52
Make of that what you will, but people were proud
31:56
to learn English. They were proud to be identified
32:00
as, as Americans. And it's been suggested now that
32:04
even hinting at going back to it's good
32:07
to be American, it's good to wave the red, white, and blue, it's good
32:11
to learn to speak English It's good to learn to fit in.
32:15
It's good to assimilate. Somehow that's now been decried
32:20
as not only unjust but wicked,
32:23
racist, which in this context seems to be the worst
32:28
of all possible sins. What do you make of that? That definitely is the shift.
32:31
It is. It's there. It's out there and it's being used. And it's,
32:36
as we mentioned, the listening church. They don't listen to
32:41
that. They don't listen to this narrative that was
32:44
the narrative that allowed us to have that unity.
32:48
Unity is just such an important part of things because you can't really get
32:52
things done without unity. And the more you multiculturalize and multitask,
32:56
multi-this, multi-that, we won't— we will not
33:00
get where we need to go. And that's one of the concerns that
33:04
I have is one of the reasons I think America is appealing
33:08
is, you know, there's the rule of law. There's enforcement of
33:12
contracts. There had been, I'm told,
33:16
a meritocracy. There's some question as to whether we still have meritocracy.
33:19
But all of that is based on a high-trust society.
33:24
If we have— I mean, for example, in Dearborn,
33:27
Michigan, there was— I think there was a town hall meeting where
33:31
an American gentleman was told that he wasn't welcome in Dearborn because
33:35
he's not Muslim. What does that do to a high-trust
33:39
society? Right, it shatters the unity. The unity,
33:43
you know, you have certain premises, certain things that you believe,
33:47
certain cores, and when you do that, it shatters it,
33:50
and that's the real danger. I mean, it really is.
33:55
We need that unity if we are to survive, and especially in
33:59
today's society. Well, I want to give credit where credit is due because
34:03
I have seen some bishops make some semblance
34:07
of listening. And they say, well, of course the
34:11
rule of law is important, and of course a
34:14
country has, has a right to define and even enforce
34:19
its borders. But then they seem to run
34:23
out of steam. Uh, they don't actually want anything.
34:26
So it seems to me they're just paying lip service. If you had
34:31
a captive audience of of bishops and legislators.
34:35
What would you say needs to be done regarding borders,
34:39
immigration, etc., to have a just society that promotes
34:44
an authentically Catholic understanding of the common good?
34:47
Yeah, so you would— the Church has a lot to say
34:52
about that. The Church has— it's not as if the Church has not dealt with
34:55
these issues before. And well, I was surprised
34:59
because I was reading St. Thomas and I said, well, Everyone says St.
35:02
Thomas has a word about everything. And I said, well, immigration, no,
35:06
it's impossible. But he does. He does talk about immigration in
35:10
the Summa. And so, you know, I would refer to that. I would just say,
35:13
look, this, we, there is a balanced position.
35:17
It's not a brutal position. It does include charity. It does include treating
35:22
immigrants or visitors right. But it also
35:26
has those common sense elements that says, well, that justice demands
35:30
that these same people who enter just all of a sudden should
35:34
not have a role of directing that country, or because
35:38
they're unfamiliar with the situation, they can't immediately
35:42
be put into it just as a part of
35:45
the society. They have to integrate. The integration is a very
35:49
important part, and justice demands that.
35:52
Everybody talks about justice and social justice. This kind of justice
35:56
also needs to be considered. Right. There are some people who suggested
36:00
that the United States needs to catch its breath regarding
36:04
immigration, and there should be a moratorium.
36:08
So not only should the borders be enforced so there's no illegal entry,
36:12
but there should be a moratorium for whatever
36:16
length of time— that's debated— but overall moratorium even
36:20
on legal migration so that the process
36:23
of assimilation can begin again. What are your thoughts on
36:27
that? Well, in a normal society, that might be the case, but with our birth
36:30
rate the way it is, uh, we will not be able to replace those people,
36:34
the workers that we need for our factories and places to, uh,
36:38
to, to produce what we need to produce. So I think some immigrations— we
36:42
will, we, we will need some types of immigration
36:46
to take care of things, or else we will be in a, in a,
36:49
in a, in a, in a, in a real bind. But it's
36:52
because of the birth rate, it's because of the contraceptive mentality
36:57
and abortion that we need these, we would need to do this.
37:00
There's also been some discussion about people coming into the country and
37:05
then, you know, it was called the culture of remittances, that they send vast
37:09
sums back to their native land. And as far as I know, especially with
37:13
people who are not here legally, these are not taxed.
37:17
What do you think of establishing taxes of remittances? Remittances that are
37:21
going outside of the American economy? I don't know.
37:24
I haven't thought about that. I really haven't thought about it. I know my grandmother
37:28
did that when she just sent money back to Croatia where she
37:32
came from. You know, I can see the desire
37:36
for that to happen. And I don't like the idea of government getting
37:40
involved in things so intimate to the family.
37:43
So I'd have to think about
37:48
Right. Yeah. I remember seeing a cartoon where someone says, should the
37:51
government— and as soon as he hears the word should the government, the answer was
37:54
no. The idea that, you know, oh,
37:58
we're going to have a government program, but, you know, I think it was even
38:01
Ronald Reagan who said that, you know, a government program is the nearest
38:05
we have to eternity. I know the Canadians
38:09
are still paying taxes, the temporary taxes to support the First World War.
38:14
So I think government does have a role, but I also
38:17
think that Catholics have to have their consciences
38:21
formed properly. And one of the things that greatly
38:24
concerns me is that they haven't really had that
38:28
opportunity. They've had emotional appeals,
38:31
but conscience is so much more than just emotion.
38:35
It's an exercise of practical reason as well. And that's why,
38:39
John, I appreciate very much your essay in Crisis
38:43
magazine because I think it's a really good first step
38:47
in the formation of conscience. John Horvath of Tradition, Family, and Property,
38:51
uh, thanks for visiting with us today. God bless your good work, and I do
38:54
look forward to next time. Thank you very much, Father. I'm Jesuit Father Robert McTeague,
38:58
your host here every day, The Catholic Current. You know, stay with us for the
39:01
rest of the hour on this Timely Tuesday. Coming up next, you and me sharing
39:04
timely thoughts, reflecting on what we've heard
39:09
heard today. I'm going to have a lot to say after the broadcast today.
39:10
Go to thestationofthecross.com, get our resources list, download our
39:14
audios, podcasts. Wherever you find audio, you can find us.
39:17
Follow us on your favorite platform, write a 5-star review. We need
39:21
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39:25
Take us to your family and friends. Together we'll take it to the whole world.
39:29
Let's do this good work together. Let's strive together to be so
39:32
much more than merely relevant. Back in just 2 minutes. Please do stay
40:00
Have a question or
40:04
feedback about today's episode? Want to suggest a guest
40:07
or a future topic? Go to thestationofthecross.com/askfather and
40:14
help influence the conversation.
40:23
Christ. This is Father Robert McTeague of the Society of Jesus, your daily host for
40:27
The Catholic Current, where we bring Christ to the world and the world to Christ.
40:29
You're listening to us from the Station of the Cross Studios, your local radio station,
40:33
the iCatholic Radio mobile app, where we proclaim the fullness of truth with clarity
40:37
and charity. Here we are, the last segment of a Timely Tuesday. You know what
40:41
that means, uh, you and me sharing timely thoughts, reflecting what
40:45
we heard today. My returning guest was John Horvat of Tradition
40:49
and Family and Property. We're talking about the church having a
40:52
hearing problem. What do we mean by that? Well, the church
40:56
has been rhapsodizing, waxing eloquent,
41:00
having an ecstasy regarding the prospect
41:03
of listening, but doesn't listen to ordinary
41:07
folks who say, hey, can we have a serious conversation about,
41:11
you know, immigration? And the answer
41:15
has largely been shut up, he explained. And I have observed
41:19
myself that some bishops give lip service to the rule of law and
41:23
assimilation and what immigrants owe to the communities they
41:27
arrive in, and a state has a legitimate obligation to protect
41:31
its citizens and its sovereignty, etc. But then when it comes to actually practically
41:35
doing anything about it, then they become kind of coy
41:40
and cagey. And I'm aware of the fact that next there
41:44
will be voting in the United States. When it comes to voting,
41:48
I like to quote the psalmist who says, put not your trust in princes.
41:52
I'm nonpartisan. I will say this much: one of
41:56
the reasons why I think the bishops' message about listening hasn't been heard is
42:00
because people don't have a lot of confidence in what the bishops have
42:04
been saying about immigration,
42:07
and I'm gonna give you a case in point. And California, and I think
42:11
perhaps at least one other state, California has said
42:16
in so many words before a federal judge, that's right,
42:19
we do nothing to verify identity
42:23
or citizenship when people come to vote. And if people who are
42:27
in the country are trying to vote and they're in the country illegally and
42:30
they're not citizens, we count their votes.
42:35
And as far as I know, no American bishop has run to the microphone and
42:39
talked about threats to our democracy. If I'm
42:42
not mistaken, I think there's somebody running
42:46
for reelection in the Senate, either Minnesota or
42:50
Michigan, who is giving advice to people to how to vote
42:54
illegally in, in that state as well.
42:58
Now, why do you think that is? Why do you think California
43:03
doesn't really worry about identification? It's because, you know,
43:06
let's just connect the dots. You don't vote Santa Claus
43:10
out of office. And I think you can be pretty sure that
43:14
if the people in the country illegally, the people who are not citizens,
43:18
were wearing their MAGA hats when they were voting, I think
43:22
the regimen of identification and
43:25
enforcement would be a lot more rigorous. So when
43:29
we talk about threats to our democracy, I would like to hear our
43:34
moral and spiritual leaders talk about that. I would also—
43:39
I would have to believe that more people would be
43:43
more inclined to hear what the majority of bishops have to say about immigration if
43:48
they didn't have a financial interest in
43:52
the matter. All right, if you catch my drift.
43:56
I would like to see that happen as well.
43:59
I would also like to see there to be more thorough teaching
44:03
on about what's called the proper order of loves: God
44:09
above all, then family,
44:13
then nation, then strangers.
44:16
Now, just from a natural law point of view, that is intuitively
44:20
obvious. Uh, it's confirmed in Scripture,
44:24
it's confirmed in the tradition of the Church,
44:28
and there doesn't seem to be a lot of conversation
44:32
about it now. I also think that we
44:36
have to say, hey, since the flood of illegal
44:40
immigration has been turned off in the United States,
44:43
and people have been voluntarily returning
44:48
to their own countries, and a good number, a non-trivial
44:51
number of very bad actors have been involuntarily
44:56
exited from the United States, what's happened to the violent
44:59
crime rate in the past few years?
45:03
I would like to hear religious people have that conversation.
45:07
I know there's a lot of investigations in process with
45:11
cultural enrichers and new arrivals whose legal
45:15
status may or may not be certain or uncertain, have been
45:19
scamming the welfare system. Very significantly.
45:23
I'd like to hear our religious and spiritual leaders talk about that
45:28
too, and in what way that is an injustice.
45:33
I would like to have our religious and spiritual leaders take a look
45:37
at our tax structure and what happens to our
45:40
economy when we flood the lower ends of the
45:44
economy with unskilled workers and willing to work for less
45:48
than minimum wage. What does that do to
45:53
our economy? What does it do to the ability of American citizens
45:58
to start businesses and raise
46:01
families? I'd like to have that conversation,
46:06
and it seems to me I don't— there's not a lot
46:09
of other religious people with access to microphones who seem
46:13
to be inclined to have that conversation,
46:17
and I just have to wonder why that is. I'm also recalling
46:21
some years back they said, well, look, if we turned off the flood
46:27
of illegal immigration, then crops wouldn't
46:31
be harvested and homes wouldn't be built,
46:35
and yet people still eat in the United States
46:39
and homes are still being built.
46:42
Since people have been anxious in
46:46
the past couple of years that the laws regarding illegal immigration that
46:50
are already on the books and have the force of law are being enforced,
46:54
the price of housing has gone down,
46:57
and the price of rent has gone down.
47:01
I wonder why that is.
47:04
I'd also like someone to do a study of
47:08
what has happened to hospitals, trauma centers, and emergency
47:13
rooms when illegal immigration is high and when
47:16
illegal immigration is not high? Could we
47:20
at least see the numbers, maybe even not draw conclusions from them,
47:23
heaven forfend, but just see the numbers? And friends,
47:27
if you have access to those numbers, please let me know.
47:30
Write me at thestationofthecross.com/askfather.
47:35
Not only do ideas have consequences,
47:38
actions have consequences. And we're
47:42
not a bunch of 16-year-olds discovering indignantly that our actions
47:46
or inactions can have unpleasant consequences.
47:50
We're adults, and we have
47:54
moral and spiritual and cultural and legal responsibilities.
48:00
And it seems that the concern for the feels
48:04
and the concern for more free stuff for everyone to infinity,
48:08
and we'll help administrate that as long as we take our cut off the top.
48:12
Those seams of preferences seem to be predominating the conversations,
48:17
and I think that's not good for anyone.
48:22
So friends, let's pray.
48:25
Let's pray for the United States as the elections come up, that they're
48:29
fair and honest and clean elections.
48:32
And that people will vote wisely and prudently.
48:37
And I think let's agree, at least in places like
48:41
the Catholic Conversation— Catholic Current, we have the kinds
48:45
of morally and spiritually significant conversations
48:50
that other people seem inexplicably unwilling
48:54
to have. I'm Jesuit Father Robert McTeigue, your host every day of the Catholic
48:59
Current. Join us tomorrow for another episode of the Catholic Current. Lively guests,
49:02
lively topic, lively conversations. That's how we roll here every day
49:06
at the Catholic Current and the Station of the Cross, where we strive mightily
49:10
to be so very much more than merely relevant.
49:14
After the broadcast today, go to thestationofthecross.com, get our resources
49:18
list, download our audio podcast. Or if you can find audio,
49:21
you can find us. Follow us on your favorite platform, write a 5-star review.
49:25
We need to attract the attention of the listeners us that these conversations get the
49:29
attention they deserve. Take us to your family and friends. Together we'll take it to
49:32
the whole world. Let's do this good work together. Through the intercession of
49:37
Our Lady of Mount Carmel, may Almighty God bless you, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
49:40
Go in peace, and please do pray for me, for I am a sinner.