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Different or Diagnosable? · Brilliant Minds?

• Andrea: Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode of Brilliant Minds. I'm Andrea and this is my bestie co-host, co-owner of our business. ⁓ Yeah, And not like dark out, which is weird, because they're like getting into the phase of the year where it's like ⁓ not dark seven o'clock in where we live. Olivia: This podcast is for entertainment, informational, educational purposes only. Although the hosts are licensed therapists, this podcast is not a substitute for professional mental health services. Listening to this podcast does not create a therapist-client relationship. Olivia, good to be back y'all. Andrea: If you are experiencing mental health concerns, please seek help from a qualified mental health professional in your area. If you are in crisis, call or text a suicide prevention line in your country immediately. In the U.S., you can call or text 988 or use online chat at 988lifeline.org. Olivia: Beautiful. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful time. Andrea: ⁓ I love it. I love it. This is my favorite time of year in Washington. It is not my favorite time of year in Arizona. I will get into that in another episode. Today we are we thought we'd talk a little bit about late diagnosis and the quote unquote rise of ADHD and why we're seeing like. Olivia: That's fair. very fair. ⁓ Andrea: Seeing people say, why are there more ADHDers these days versus past? Seeing a rise in social media usage of ADHD, things like that, in addition to like, why things are happening late? Olivia: Yeah, yeah. Okay, so I have a related but somewhat random question. Have you like, I know we've talked about this a little bit, but have you like officially been diagnosed with ADHD? Andrea: No. I have not. Mm-mm. Olivia: No. Okay. So... with that? Andrea: motivation, ADHD, holding me back. ⁓ Olivia: think okay, I'm just gonna pause just for a second because I think this is like a really important point is is that Most that actually have ADHD are not inherently going out and like going through the effort Thinking that they have it and getting diagnosed with it people that are getting late diagnosed with it. It's like a shock Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: Okay, sorry, go ahead, move on. I just wanted to like, I just feel like that's kind of an important point to like throw out there. Andrea: ⁓ yeah, totally. Well, I mean, part of it was like, it didn't really come up for me until I started working with ADHD and then I started working with a therapist. And my therapist at the time didn't feel confident in the diagnosing of it for me, which like was fine. She kind of was like on the, I don't feel like I can diagnose side versus like I'm kind of on the opposite side of that these days. And then my PCP didn't feel comfortable doing it at the time either. So I just haven't, and then I just don't, I just don't wanna go through the, yeah. Too much work. Olivia: my gosh, okay. So I feel like you're obviously a little bit more of an exception because I think you can kind of get away with being like, I have ADHD, ⁓ though you haven't formally been diagnosed with it. So what would you say to people that are out there saying like, ⁓ I have ADHD and have not been formally diagnosed? Andrea: Yeah. Right. Olivia: I don't mean to be like exposing you. I'm not like trying to put you on trial. just think like, it's just an interesting topic, right? Andrea: No. Totally. Yeah, yeah, well, I will be honest. Like sometimes I feel a lot of imposter syndrome telling people I have ADHD because of that. And I do get really like in my head about telling people I have ADHD because I don't have that piece of paper that says that. ⁓ And that can be really, really tough. But like you said, I am kind of the exception. am an ADHD neurodivergent specialist in the field. Olivia: Mmm. Andrea: But sometimes it does feel like being a tattoo artist without having tattoos. Sometimes a little bit. Olivia: That is an amazing comparison. Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Andrea: Yeah, yeah, but like, I feel like you can even tell me like, yeah, you have ADHD, right? Like. Olivia: Yeah, but like, it's a little bit different. I can't like write you a letter and be like, hey, PCP, give her meds. You know what I mean? Like I can't, yeah, I can't really do that. Andrea: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah, the other piece to that for me is that not quite at the point where I want to pursue meds. Like I want other things in my life to be fine before I go there. But ⁓ when hear it on the internet, when I see it from other people, I ask a lot of questions. Like in my head, I ask a lot of questions. Olivia: Hmm. Andrea: Because I think I see people that are like, ⁓ I'm ADHD because they had like a day that they couldn't focus. Like, for me, if I look back at my lifetime, I can see the patterns. I can see where it was an issue. I can see things that have happened, like that I've experienced in my life and be like, that makes sense. Like, there's just thing after thing after thing that lines up correctly. And sometimes when I just see people Olivia: Hmm. Andrea: flippantly saying that, I have a lot of questions for them. Olivia: Yeah, that's fair. I don't think I see this as much, to be honest. I feel like I... funny. I see more commentary about how, ⁓ everyone's getting diagnosed with it, or everyone's claiming that they have it, but I'm not seeing as many people claiming that they have it that don't inherently seem like maybe they do from an outsider's perspective. I just see people complaining that everyone has it. Andrea: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, I've seen that too, for sure. Olivia: Yeah, but it's just funny to me. I'm like, well, okay, yeah, more people are clearly getting diagnosed with it. Totally. Like I'm literally out here like whipping diagnoses out like it's nothing. I'm just like, yep, you got it. Stamp, stamp, stamp. It's like getting knighted. You're just like, yep, right next. ⁓ ⁓ it. ⁓ But I just see infinitely more commentary about like, ⁓ has, yeah. You know, it's like. Andrea: Yeah, same, yeah. Yeah. Olivia: Well, know, my clinical answer to that, which I wouldn't normally answer this if was just somebody off the street. And I'm sure a lot of people have seen this comparison is like, we haven't until recently really adequately or even close to adequately researched neurodivergence. And so because of we were going to be really, really bad at being able to assess and diagnose it. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Olivia: The comparison that I've seen a lot, I think like I'm sure you've heard of it too, or seen it too, is like we discovered more stars when we invented a telescope. It's not that we invented new stars. It's that they were always there, but we didn't know how to find or see them or like identify them until we had the means to actually like do that. It's kind of the same gig, right? Like that's like the real clinical answer that's out there, but just like some random Nancy on the street, I'd be like, okay. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, no, I agree. there's always trends in things like that. And I use the word trends because that's literally what we see, right, is like these ebbs and these flows of things. And I think we're in a phase where we are learning so much more about neurodiversity and what that looks like as a population, that it is going to get bigger before it narrows down again, if anything. And we are defining so much more Olivia: Right. Andrea: what these different types of neurodiversities ⁓ what they look like, right? And we could go into at some point about like ADHD does have a really big genetic component, right? A big biological component. But there is some evidence that there is like an acquired component to ⁓ as well. And so they're still kind of trying to research like... Olivia: Right. Great. Andrea: How is that associated to trauma and what is it? What came first, the chicken or the egg on this? And I think we're gonna see like more and more people get diagnosed and more and more people get studied and we like look more into this that maybe it narrows down into different pockets and areas. I don't know. That's my theory on that. But. ⁓ Olivia: Yeah, I don't know. mean, ⁓ see in the general public this commentary, but where I've seen it more personally, where I've like actually heard it, this commentary happening to people around me is so ironic. I'm guessing ⁓ going to know, like you're going to relate to this. The people being like, ⁓ everyone has it, you know, like whatever ⁓ the older parents ⁓ clients who are late diagnosed. Andrea: Mm-hmm. You Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: who are like, hey, I have this diagnosis and like, it's really genetic. And parents being like, oh yeah, everybody has that. That's just how everybody is. And it's like, mm. Andrea: you Yeah, but when we were kids you would never have said that. You know, like when we were kids you would have been like, well you're not a boy and you're not rushing around like a crazy kid, like... Olivia: Right, right. So that's, that's like, see the commentary super generally, but then when I see it come up in my own life, I see it come up in like the most ironic, hilarious way to me that it's like, pointless to engage in it because you're just like, okay, like whatever. Yeah, sure. Everyone has it. All right. Yeah. That's too funny. I have seen that though, like Andrea: Right, right, yeah. Olivia: Oh, like I come to focus today, I like so ADHD and it's like, oh, okay, I don't know. Andrea: Even just like an hour ago, I was doom scrolling a little bit. I watched a video that was like, autism check. And it was like, put a finger down if you hate the sound of chewing. Put a finger down if eye contact is really difficult for you. Put a finger down if you get annoyed by sounds. And like these really stereotypical things that we hear that people often associate with autism. But I was like, in my head it drove me crazy because I was like there is so much more to that than that. I know so many autistic folk that wouldn't put a single finger down for that but are very much autistic. Olivia: Yeah, it's the stereotyping now. Like we've kind of like, it's part of the pendulum swing that we're having of because more people are getting more accurately diagnosed and like supported for it, that it's getting overgeneralized or like stereotyped and kind of in a more negative way. Andrea: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's so hard to like, I don't know, like have those conversations too, just out in public because I've heard people even be like, wow, everybody around me just is all these ADHD diagnosis. I'm like, well, we are So, let's evaluate what means for you. Olivia: Yeah. Yeah. think the funny thing about ADHD is like, it seems so silly. It seems so silly now that I've been diagnosed with it and I'm officially diagnosed. Someone has put their name on it. I've been stamped. I've been knighted. is it's, it can be really tricky to find it, like to, to like really identify it. It's like really like pin it down. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: And you wouldn't think it would be that hard, but it actually like kind of is. Or at least it can be. Not for everyone. But like, there's some people it's like, it's like hidden. It's like a little like mystery. Andrea: Wha- Yeah. Yeah, well, I think especially in particular with women. Olivia: ⁓ you've done it. Yeah. Yeah. Because we just internalize everything stereotypically. Andrea: Right? yeah. like then there's trauma and other things associated with that that's like. ⁓ Olivia: I don't have that. What are you talking about? I... Please. I have... a trauma virgin. Please. ⁓ think... I you need to watch your implications you're making. ⁓ my gosh. Okay. I have a... Okay. So question for you on my mind now that we're talking about this. What do you think would be the benefit ⁓ of ⁓ Andrea: just gonna gloss right over that and keep moving. You Hahaha Yes. Okay. Olivia: getting assessed or getting diagnosed with ADHD versus just pretty sure or knowing, believing that they have it and just kind of going on. ⁓ than the medication piece, the more logistical aspect of ⁓ want medication support, then you have to have a official diagnosis. Andrea: Yeah, you know, this is a question I ask a lot of my clients when they talk to me about it, which is, you know, when they ask me like, do you think I should go get a diagnosis or like a neuropsych eval? And we like walk through it every time. And I think a lot of the a lot of the things that come up with my clients are acceptance and just like this kind of reality of like, okay, yeah, this is real. And I can feel that stamp. I can have that night like I can be knighted in that where it like Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: It feels very real. And I think for me, like if I actually went and got that, if I went and got knighted, like had the official seal, I would totally feel that way. And I would feel so much more confident. I'd be like getting my tattoo and then being a tattoo artist, right? And I think some of the other things that come up, which I'm getting really into lately is the idea of like accommodations. accommodations in the workplace in particular is a really big thing lately. ⁓ Olivia: Mmm. Andrea: you know, whether that's work from home, different like work schedules, because we're learning so much about like sleep rhythms and things that are tied to ADHD and all of that. So I think like those are the top two things that come up when I talk about that. But I'm really curious if you have to that or if it's the same. Olivia: I think pretty similar. I'm sure you talk about this too. I think, well, okay. Let me back up and state my bias coming into this, which is, I feel very confident in throwing around ADHD diagnosis and I'll just diagnose client with it. ⁓ And for most part, there hasn't been a lot of issue or pushback in terms of that ⁓ enough be an official. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: diagnosis that I like cosigned it enough that it's all good, right? ⁓ But a client really wanted to go more of the like assessment, more formal neuropsych assessment route, think what yeah, would kind of do like, well, what are you wanting to get out of it? And like, you know, how we support that? But the other piece is like, I would kind of like tell them to gear up, primarily because Andrea: Right. Right. Olivia: Theoretically, you should be able to go to a neuropsych assessment and get accurately assessed, whether you have it or not. But the problem with any diagnosis, medical, mental health, whatever, is that there is a level of subjectivity to it. So you could go to a neuropsych assessment to get your diagnosis the person is as dumb as a brick when it comes to like actually assessing ADHD and you don't get your diagnosis. And then what? So ⁓ I think what I would add onto that, and I'm sure you probably already talk about this too, is just like, gear up for it. prepared to advocate for yourself ⁓ ask more follow-up questions, get a second opinion, ⁓ I think that's the other thing is people will go and get an assessment and be like, well, said I didn't have it. And it's like, okay, well, that's an opinion. ⁓ At end of the day, right? That's an opinion. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: Like a doctor is giving you their opinion, a well-informed, theoretically educated, competent one, but like it's an opinion. So it's like, yeah, that's one opinion. That's why we call it getting a second opinion. So I think like that would be the other piece I would add to that is like gear up. Like it's a process. It's expensive. It's hard to get into like all these things, but like don't inherently take the feedback you get from that person as that's the standard. And then that's just like what you take away from it. And you never. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: go back from it, essentially. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah, well, and again with women we have internalized so much of these symptoms that I think like even when I Like evaluate myself or whatever. I'm like, well, that's just you know, like that's just what I've always done That's just what was like normal in my household or whatever like the reality of that is no That's not normal. that's that's not Hello Olivia: Right. Andrea: And I even remember like when I gave my mom a book to read after like kind of discovering ADHD for myself. She read it and she was like, Let's about this But going into those assessments we also have to like find a way for ourselves to just like unmask and be honest and like say what we're internalizing because if we don't then it's gonna go missed. Yeah. Olivia: Yeah, or have enough awareness and like enough awareness to realize what you are internalizing or like what you are masking, which like that's kind of a feat in in itself, right? Andrea: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Which is maybe why like seeing a therapist like you and I is a great first step before going into the neuropsych. Olivia: Right? But you know, honestly, like I... I will say... I've a really... These last years, I don't know if I've just like gotten lucky or like things really have changed. But all I've had to do is just like write letters for my clients' PCPs being like, they've got it. And the PCPs are like, cool. What meds do you want? And like, that's amazing. And like, honestly, that's really like how it should... Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: be, that historically hasn't always been the case. ⁓ Andrea: Mm-hmm. No, and it still isn't always the case, right? yeah, like a certain insurance company recently said that someone wasn't allowed to get more of their Adderall because they needed to prove that they were still ADHD. Olivia: ⁓ true. ⁓ no, I know. I think I've just gotten lucky. Oh, that wasn't like cured. God, I wish. Andrea: Yeah. And they wouldn't accept my letter, so we had to jump through a bunch of hoops for it to ⁓ it back, but like, what? ⁓ Olivia: That's so like that's so count. Okay, so you love how like insurance is all about like evidence-based and like do what's researched and they're gonna sit here and tell me that like I have to prove that this person still has ADHD when like research shows you were either born with it or you're not like and You have it or you don't like it's not a it's not going anywhere Andrea: and Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, it's super weird. And even like, even I've gone through FMLA paperwork and only certain FMLA or leave companies will like accept my diagnosis for that. had an FMLA paperwork come back at some point that was like, explain your flare ups of ADHD. And I wanted to just be like, what? Can ⁓ Olivia: Yeah, that's so funny. I mean, it's stupid, but it's funny. Andrea: Hold on. ups? Are good? Olivia: that's funny. I am having a flare-up. For the rest of my life. Andrea: Like Like, ⁓ will be honest, I think there are good days and bad days with it, right? For sure. ⁓ like, no, no. Olivia: Yeah, yeah. but I wouldn't call it like a flare up. Like it's, yeah, I wouldn't classify it as a chronic condition where you're like, you know, you've got like arthritis. You're like, ⁓ it's a bad hand day. It was like, ⁓ what? ⁓ Andrea: No. Right. Right. ⁓ I'm sorry. My ADHD is flared up today. Like I can't come to work. Olivia: Well, yeah. Could you imagine? That would be amazing though. Like if that was a thing. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: Every this reminds me very much of this like passive conversation I had after my ⁓ daughter's like ballet class and it was like this little girl she came in and the mom was like sorry, she's just like She's just been like a really big two-year-old today. been like a big two-year-old kind of day and I was like, man Why did we stop using that as an excuse? She's like what and I was like, I'm just having like a big 33 year old kind of day like Andrea: you Olivia: Man, like the 30s. Am I right? Like, I mean, like, why, why do we stop using that? Andrea: I feel like we need to put that on a t-shirt with a blank for your age. You could just enter it, like ⁓ a little Velcro patch for every age. ⁓ Olivia: Yeah, right? Yeah, it's like a flare-up, but it's like your age. Yeah, right. Obviously. ⁓ my gosh. Andrea: I like it, I like it. ⁓ I might start just saying I'm having a very two year old day anyways. Olivia: I mean, that's fair. Andrea: Some days I really just wanna have a two-year-old date. That's it. Olivia: Yeah, yeah, ⁓ that's funny. That brings up in my brain. I'm gonna, I need to hold it, but I'm gonna pin that in my brain for our rabbit trail episode. I'm actually gonna write it down. Hold on. Andrea: Pin, pin, Yeah. love this. Riveting content. ⁓ feel like in that moment there was like glitter above your head that just said ADHD. Olivia: Okay. It's okay. Guys, it's so good. It has to be saved. I said pass. Andrea: Hahaha! Olivia: what I said. That's my brain was doing. So that's what I should have said. ⁓ Okay. back to idea. ⁓ like remember I stopped you and was like, Hey, Lem, let me just like throw it out there. ⁓ Most people upon a neurodivergent diagnosis and they don't inherently think ⁓ of their as being different enough to be diagnosable. Andrea: That's fair. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: name of the podcast different versus diagnosable. Okay anyways I think about my experience growing up I thought it was stupid I never I never thought it was focus related never never ever once I never thought it was focus or motivation because I I wanted like I wanted to Do the thing I wanted to get good grades like I wanted ⁓ to do my homework and be on top of it and be organized and all that. So it had nothing to do with focus and motivation for me growing up. It was just like, I can't remember any of this. And these numbers are going all over in my head. And I cannot recall these things. And like, I'm just dumb. I'm just bad. I'm just, just stupid. Andrea: Yeah, I identify with that 100%. Olivia: Right. And this is exactly why when people are getting late diagnosed, by and large, they're not looking to get diagnosed. It's like it kind of like has to slap them in the face and be like, yo, you are not stupid. You are not unmotivated. You are not these things. It's this. those people that are getting late diagnosed, like are kind of almost having to be like coerced into knighthood. And they're like, ⁓ I get it. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. Olivia: So this idea of like, so everyone's getting diagnosed with that. It's like, okay, the people that are actually getting diagnosed are like, like getting just like baptized, just like, you've got it. Can't avoid it anymore. Yes. Right. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ completely. I mean, that was basically my experience. I was reading and taking a training for clients, not for me. Like. Olivia: And then you're just like, this content being too real right now. Andrea: Yeah, like I think I read my favorite ADHD book, which I've mentioned a million times, Your Brain's Not Broken, and within the first chapter I was like almost in tears, because I was like getting hit in the face with that. Like I was like, oh wait a second, because you know, and I think people are still told this, where it's like, well what were you like in school as a kid, right? Like how, how, I was a great student, but I struggled. Olivia: Yeah. Andrea: My internal struggle as a kid, thoughts of being stupid or non-intelligent or like, can't I memorize shit or why can't I remember things or like these numbers are mixing up in my head. I don't know how many apples are in a bushel that John took down the hill. Like, what? Olivia: How many watermelons with a train carrying? Andrea: never many watermelons were there like ⁓ Olivia: as many as I trained one or two? I don't know. Is this like a... Oh, I... Yeah, I hear you. I mean, I was like, if you looked at my grades, I was technically a good student, but like, I felt like I had to kill myself to get those grades. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yes, yeah. I even, have memories of sitting at the kitchen table trying to do my homework with my mom and just being in tears because it was so hard. it wasn't necessarily that, it was always math for me, but it wasn't necessarily that it was actually hard, it was just hard for me. That's really hard to explain or to verbalize. Olivia: Right. Hmm. Mmm. Andrea: But it was, there was a challenge and it was so overstimulating and it was so much that like, we would get into just screaming matches because I would be like, I don't get it and I can't describe to you why I don't get it. Olivia: Hmm. mean, I understand what you're saying. once ⁓ my dad. Okay, I was home school and flat ⁓ my dad taught me math because he's stupid smart and Yeah, was one day. I was like so frustrated with math. I literally like stabbed my book with my pencil And my dad just like got up and walked away. Cause he like, he just like didn't know what to do. I was just like, I like, I was just so frustrated because I kept writing numbers, not what I meant. And like, like a little bit of that, like little bit of dyslexia-ish in there. I was just getting so frustrated cause he kept catching every single one. He's like, that's not a six. And I'm gonna be like, Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Olivia: Sorry, like that's not what I meant. I meant this. He's like, well, you didn't write that. I'm like, but that's what I meant. Like just getting so, and eventually I just like write on the, never forget that. And he just like gets up, walks away. And I was like, well, now I feel even more stupid. I'm sorry. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like we have very similar experiences with that in particular, right? Where it's just like really wanting to be really good and really just like struggling and not having the understanding of like how to describe what we're experiencing. like even in supervision the other day, I was talking with someone about like a ⁓ child's behavior who's been diagnosed with ADHD and I'm like, who's? Olivia: Yeah. video. Andrea: He's probably overwhelmed. He doesn't know the words to say like I don't know how to do this and is running around the classroom because there's so much energy in their body that it's like, like, ⁓ Yeah, that's the same thing as like you stabbing your math book with a pencil or me screaming at the top of my lungs because I couldn't figure it out like Olivia: Right. Yeah, it's like vibrating out of them. Yeah. That's straight up. I'm just an impulsive, violent individual. Okay, so it's interesting that you bring up the school thing though, because recently a friend, ⁓ that I know got assessed and planted the seed like, ⁓ gosh, probably ⁓ like two, ⁓ two years ago. is moving so Okay, like planted the seed about two years ago. like, ⁓ I hate to break you, but. Andrea: Ha ha ha! Yeah. Olivia: I think that you got something going on in your brain and I don't think it's what you think it is. ⁓ which I like love doing as a supervisor. It's like one of my favorite things. And she's just kind of like solid, like denied it. And then been like, ⁓ I saw this like thing about ADHD and like, I totally do that. And I'm like, yeah. She'd like, ⁓ like this client, I'd be like, mm You relate to that. Interesting. Or I'll be like, ⁓ well for my ADHD, like I noticed this. And she's like, ⁓ I'm like that too. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, same. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Olivia: So she gets assessed. She goes through the formal assessment and I was like, hey, how'd it go? And she goes, um, yeah, he doesn't think I have ADHD. And I was like, why? mean, I was like, why? Well, primarily because I didn't struggle in school. And I'm like, oh my God. Just like, really? School? Like, oh. Andrea: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I knew it. Yeah. Olivia: Boring, pick a better reason. Andrea: of me really wants to be like, if your neuropsych is asking you what your grades were like in school, run. Like, we are past that, Psychs, psychologists, whatever the fuck you are, get retrained on ADHD. Like, come on. Olivia: Yeah, like that's not you have and also for ADHD you need to be digging deeper than just like school or relationships or work. Andrea: Yeah. Do you know... Yeah. Are you familiar with the Vanderbilt scale? you seen that? Olivia: Ooh, it sounds familiar, but I can't picture it off the top of my head. Andrea: It's an ADHD, I'm putting big quotes around there for our listeners. It's an ADHD scale. And I was told early, early, early in my career to give that to teachers of my clients to fill out. for my kids, I would give, ⁓ there was a parent version and a teacher version, and there was not a self-report version. There was a self-report version if you were like over 16 or something like that, but it was only 16 to 18 that you could do self-report. And yeah, yeah, it was weird. And it started to drive me crazy because like the teacher's responses never aligned with the student's or with the parent's responses or with the other teacher's. Like they were all so different. looking back on that, I'm like, ⁓ now I know why. Olivia: That's your window. Sorry. ⁓ Andrea: But I have actually heard of someone going to a psych or getting a neuropsych and them being like, well, normally I would give the Vanderbilts out, but you're an adult. Excuse me? No, no, no, go back, get your training redone because that's bullshit. That's not even, it's not even a testing scale. It's literally like, this kid fidget in their seat? Like, does this kid struggle with turning homework in on time? Like, those are the questions and it's yes or no. Olivia: Wow, that's a really interesting scale of yes or no. Andrea: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I just, remember seeing it early on and being like, this just feels like a weird, a weird assessment to use for like this. Like, this isn't doing anything. This isn't giving us any information other than like what I already observe. Like. Olivia: Right? I remember when I, so when I got diagnosed, my brother who I'm closest to, I was like, oh yeah, I got diagnosed. And he was like, oh yeah, mom always thought I had that growing up. And I was like, did anything happen with that? Like, did you get diagnosed? Am I like missing something? He's like, oh no, I didn't get diagnosed. She said I was just like, it was fine. It wasn't worth it. And I was like, so she could... Wait, I... ⁓ Right? Okay. Andrea: It happened in our family too. Yeah, like, yeah, my brother was at one point tested for that and I never was and then they were like, nah, he doesn't have it. I was like, okay. Olivia: Alright. Andrea: Sure. Olivia: Right. Yeah. And the funny. OK, so the funny thing is, is with my daughter, she's five. Background. time we go to the doctor, I swear to God, we are getting like one step closer to just like straight up getting her e-valid for ADHD, because ⁓ this last year, it's been about addressing her like snoring mouth breathing, which turns out she has sleep apneas or her tonsils are getting taken out. And. The sleep doc initially was like, well, she just has a lot of energy during the day and like all these things. So I like, don't know how bad her sleep apnea is going to be. And then we do the sleep setting. They're like, Oh, actually her sleep apnea is like really bad. I'm like, wow. And it's like, yeah, it's almost like her hyperactivity totally covers how flipping exhausted she is. But then the doctor was like, Oh, you should rule out sleep apnea if you do think she has ADHD, because like sometimes sleep apnea can look like ADHD. It's like, okay, great. So get the tonsils out. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: you know, sleep better, rule that out. Great. And then this girl goes to her annual couple of weeks ago. And so they test her vision. They test her hearing. They test like all, you know, all the things, right? Great. husband who takes her comes back and he's like, so ⁓ got a referral to audiology to get her hearing checked and need to go take her to an eye doctor and get her vision checked because she like just missed it by this much, both of them. And I'm like, let me guess. It was probably either she didn't understand the directions or she was completely unfocused and unmotivated to do it. And he was like, yep, pretty sure, but we should probably rule it out anyways, because if we're going to get her evaled for ADHD, we should probably rule out that her vision is fine and that she can hear. She just doesn't want to, and she has trouble processing it. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Literally when you texted me the other day that you got those referrals, I was like, ⁓ gosh. Like I was like, I really wanted to ask those questions. Like, did she understand the question? Did she get distracted? like. Olivia: I know. I know. Thank you. Yeah. And you know what? Got her eyes checked this week. Her 2020 vision. She's got great freaking eyes. Like, oh my God. was like, yup. And I don't even like the referral for audiology just went through. I don't even know yet, but it has to be like months out to get in, like months and months out. So I'm like, great. I'm super excited. We also. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: Background, she's already had her hearing checked when she was two. And it was fine. But they want to rule it out if you need speech therapy just to make sure that like there's not any impairment, which totally makes sense. Totally makes sense. Went and it got it her hearing's fine. I'm like, OK, here we go again, because this girl like cannot even focus on a freaking hearing test. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Olivia: Here we go, it out. She has like the worst auditory processing I've almost ever freaking seen for a five year old. But I swear to like every time we go to the doctor, it's like, all right, roll this out. Like we're getting closer and closer and closer. ⁓ Andrea: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, I think you and I have a similar stance on this then is that like, I would take the stance in any situation to rule out things like that before going to, you know, straight to, yeah. Like. Olivia: straight to. I mean, in this specific case, yes. like, if it was a client, like an adult, I probably wouldn't. For a kid, I would. And primarily, especially because she's a girl. Andrea: Yes. Yeah. Yes. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. Olivia: I think it could be like, I, the system to get a kid officially diagnosed with ADHD is a little bit different than as an adult. And so I kind of am envisioning just like I would tell a client to gear up for like neuropsych assessment. I'm kind of like gearing up. Like I'm like, I'm teeing up for being like, no, we've ruled out this, this, and this, and this, and here are these things, da, da, da, da, like, that can be seen by like these people in our life, these teachers, these, da, like, Andrea: Totally. Ahem. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Olivia: I'm kind of like gearing up for battle because I feel that that is inevitably what's going to happen. I hope not. I hope it's lovely and supportive and like well informed and all that. And obviously I'll do my best to try to choose a place like that. But yeah, I'm like, okay, let's rule out all these things. I don't hear any like whack ass person be like, well, I think it's just like her sight. It's like, no, it's not. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Olivia: You're changing the energy of the sun. That's hyperactivity. Yeah, right. I also want to be like, I'm diagnosed officially receiving all of the things. Dispatch the knighthood like cosine with me. Andrea: I mean, you already have the diagnosis, so she's already doomed, so. What's prior to a knighthood? Is there a step before becoming a knight? Like, she's whatever this- Olivia: What's the name of the people that like, my gosh, I wanna say Stuart, but that's not right. Andrea: Are you sure? Oh man. Olivia: Am I sure that that's not right? Or am I sure that there's a person that like, Andrea: Are you sure that's not right? Step below. Olivia: I don't know. I don't know anything. Andrea: A... That didn't help. Olivia: Well, don't look at the AI overview. Andrea: That's what it came up There's not this is gonna take me forever to figure out ⁓ a Pay a Squire Yeah a Squire yeah ⁓ Olivia: What's a Knight's Assistant? ⁓ a squire! Yeah, squire. Yeah, steward. Not that close. Andrea: No, no, but Squire, Squire is, yes. Olivia: That's okay. Yeah. She's my squire. Andrea: I could go down an ADHD rabbit hole about sword in the stone right now, but I'm not going to. Dude, me too. Olivia: Gosh, I almost showed that to my daughter the other day. And then she picked a lat, she picked Aladdin ⁓ mean, yeah. ⁓ Andrea: Ugh. Okay, well, it's not the worst. Olivia: Yeah, I know. The worst could have been Little Mermaid. That's what the worst could have been. Anyways, okay. What what do you like about self identifying as ⁓ HD? ⁓ Andrea: What do I like about it? ⁓ my gosh. Olivia: I mean, knowing, like finally knowing that about yourself or like knowing that you have ADHD likely in life. Andrea: Oh, oh, yeah, okay, that that reframe makes a lot more sense. No, it's fine. I think the the biggest thing for me is like, just under like overall understanding and like it has taken a lot of pressure off of myself because I think before learning this for me and before exploring this for myself, I put a lot of pressure on myself to be quote unquote normal to be what it Olivia: It's all right. Andrea: neurotypicals are, right? Things like being able to wash my clothes like a normal person. I would get so mad at myself because I would have to run the washing machine like three to four times before getting it into the dryer. Like, I would forget and forget or just like other silly things. And so now I've really been able to look where my barriers are for everything and ⁓ a to work around or to work with that. And that level of like self understanding has changed a lot for me. I mean, that still comes up a lot where I get really frustrated. Like you all don't see what's beyond my box right now. Unless you follow me on Instagram because the ADHD is really real right now and it is very frustrating and will probably be frustrating until I can get through the paralysis. But ultimately, the self understanding and being able to work with it is probably the best thing about it. What about you? Olivia: Yeah, I think I would say... would say, ⁓ on that, would say... I'm not trying to change something that I can't. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Olivia: And so feels like just very time efficient thing to do. ⁓ And ⁓ way productive and way more realistic. So that part is super lovely. Don't ⁓ wish were different or like I could control things or I could change things. Yeah. ⁓ And like super real, but I'm not like trying to change something that I can't, which is lovely. The other thing I think about is like Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right, yeah. Olivia: Yeah, maybe in some ways it'd be really nice to have been diagnosed when I was younger. I think that could have come with different advantages, right? You know, and different supports and all that. And think like, one thing I can appreciate about being late diagnosed is that I'm, I have enough insight and I've, and I've developed enough neurologically that I can actually like understand the complexity of ADHD. Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Olivia: and like get the nuance of it. Whereas if I was diagnosed as a kid, just like developmentally, I wouldn't really be able to like understand it abstractly very well. And so like that is a little bit of a bet, like a nice thing in a way of being late diagnosed is like you actually have the brain power to like comprehend what it means and like how it changes things for you instead of being like, ⁓ there's this thing. I don't know about it, but like it's, it's there, right? Andrea: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm. Olivia: So I think that it is like a potential benefit of being diagnosed. I don't know. Andrea: Yeah. Yeah, I would agree with that. And something I always tell my ADHD clients is like, we gotta make the world work for us instead of trying to work for the world. that's of what we're saying with all of this is that like we are at a point in our lives being light diagnosed where we can look at where we struggle, where we have our strengths, where maybe we need some extra support and make that work for us ⁓ and ways of like that. cognitively accepting those changes and saying like, I'm having an ADHD flare up, we're good today. And moving through it. Olivia: I need to use that. Yeah. I need to use that. We need to make that. We need to put that on the like merch, merch shirt. What? was that so hard to say? No, I said merch shirt I put the CH on the end of shirt. Andrea: Yeah. Did you just say- did you say birch church? I like it, I like it. Let's see. ADHD. Olivia: rough. Yeah. Andrea: on the list. Olivia: Good. I to that. ⁓ Andrea: Yes, ⁓ my goodness, we almost veered into rabbit trail territory there at the end. Olivia: So many times. Actually, like so many times we almost veered off. The self-control. Unhinged. Andrea: Yeah. ⁓ But this is the life of being an ADHDer. Hopefully there was some insight or some interesting ⁓ in there today. Can't wait to keep talking about this topic and so many more. So thank you for joining us today. ⁓ Olivia: Yeah, thanks for hanging out. We love having you. This is fun. Andrea: Yeah, and like, subscribe, follow, comment. We love seeing all your comments and all your things that whatever brain trailed off into a random direction. ⁓ Olivia: Whoa, it's okay. We like when you engage with us. We'll engage with you back. It's all good. Yeah. Andrea: Exactly, All we love you all. Olivia: We love you. See you later. Bye. Andrea: Bye!