Latest / The ABACC Podcast® / Ep. 3 - David Hoag (President, CCCU) - The CFO, the President, and Why Every Dollar Matters
Transcript
- David A. Hoag | CCCU: And so I would encourage you to do your part. in that relationship because presidents are only going to be as good as the financial information that they have. And at the same time, you need to just brutally tell the truth and and make sure that you can articulate to them exactly where they are. And that is just a super, super important role. Bruce Hoeker: Welcome back to the ABACC Podcast, where we learn from the people serving Christian higher education, and remember that we are all working through it together. Our guest today is Dr. David Hoag president of the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities. As a young man, David planned to be a coach or an athletic director. Instead, a mentor called him back to his alma mater to work in admissions, and that one yes led to advancement, a presidency at Warner University, And now a seat where he can see more than 185 campuses at once. His father was a CPA, so David says he knows just enough about finance to be dangerous. And over his whole career, he has made a point of getting to know his CFO. Today he tells us why that matters and what the CCCU is fighting for in Washington on your behalf. Before we dig in, a quick word about our sponsors. Doctor Hoag thanks for being on the show. Welcome. David A. Hoag | CCCU: Thanks, Bruce. Just honored to be here with you today. Bruce Hoeker: We appreciate you being here. we we've spent a lot of time together recently. It's it's I've been super David A. Hoag | CCCU: We have Bruce Hoeker: excited about this, not only because of the topic that we're talking about today, but just because we you've been in Grand Rapids, my hometown, numerous times over the last several months and and we've David A. Hoag | CCCU: I I am getting some serious frequent flyer points Bruce Hoeker: good. David A. Hoag | CCCU: and and hotel points in Grand Rapids. So it's a great town. Great. Thanks. Bruce Hoeker: Well good. You'll you're always welcome here. Well, I I want to talk to you about some things today, but before we do that, I'd like to get a feel of kind of your history and where you started and how you ended up at the CCCU. David A. Hoag | CCCU: Sure. Well, I like to say the CCCU is totally in my DNA. I I went to one of our institutions. I went to Asbury in Kentucky. It was Asbury College at the time. I graduated and then I went on to the University of Kentucky for my masters. And one of my mentors at Asbury said, I'd love to have you come back and join me in admissions and I kind of put him off for a few weeks and then I finally said, okay, Stan, I'll pray about it. And that trajectory has totally changed my life from when I took that job. I started in admissions, did that for three years, then then they were gearing up for a capital campaign and they need some help in the advancement office. So then I moved into that area for six years and just had I had a great nine years. at at Asbury. And then my wife and I felt it it was kind of time to spread our wings a little bit and we were offered to take the vice president for advancement job at Greenville College in Southern Illinois. It's now Greenville University. And I was like thirty one years old and never thought we'd leave Kentucky, but here we go. We move all the way over to Illinois and spent thirteen incredible years there. That's where our kids grew up and Graduated from high school. during that time I was able to get my PhD at St. Louis University. and then after 13 years there, seven years up at Trinity International or Ted's Evangelical Divinity School, also known as seven years there, and then went to serve as president at one of our schools, Warner University, down in Lake Wales, Florida. And during that time, I was asked to serve on the C C C U board and I never thought that that would lead towards replacing Shirley Hookstra, who who was kind of a mentor and a great friend. and here I am, hard to believe, just started my third year. So Bruce Hoeker: Well, it's ironic because as Shirley lives here in Grand Rapids as well. So we we have got w maybe you should move here, David. You you seem to spend a lot of time here, a lot of friends David A. Hoag | CCCU: I yeah, listen, Bruce Hoeker: here. David A. Hoag | CCCU: I I'm telling ya, so I have been in Grand Rapids I think two times in the last three weeks and one of those times I made sure that I went and had dinner with Jeff and Shirley. Bruce Hoeker: So w why Christian higher ed? Why has that been the focus of your career? David A. Hoag | CCCU: You know, for my wife and I, it it it was a calling. And we we like to say we're serving in this area because of the faculty and staff that invested in our lives when we were students. And we had great mentors, we literally had coaches, we were both athletes at the time. And and that's when as we first got married, we said we said, we want to give back. And my wife's parents were educators and you know, we we never dreamed that we would end up being a vice president or a president or or doing what we are doing now. We I kinda thought I'd be a coach or an athletic director, but the Lord had some other plans in mind. Bruce Hoeker: Well he did, and they were they were good plants, as they typically are. And you certainly serve the CCCU well and are very much appreciated in the industry and and which is just another reason why it's so great to have you on the show. So l think back David A. Hoag | CCCU: No, thanks. Bruce Hoeker: along your journey. I know you have a story about a CFO years ago who who felt the need to say no to you. Tell me about that. David A. Hoag | CCCU: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Well, I want to give this a little bit of a disclaimer. my father was a CPA and and an accountant, even though he ran the family business that my great grandfather started as a greenhouse business. But I I have said my entire career, because of my dad's background as an auditor and some of those things, I know enough to be dangerous on on the financial side of things. And the the one the first big showdown, I guess you would say, that I had with a CFO was probably about nineteen ninety. And it's I was at Asbury and I had just moved into the development area. And Charlie Fisco was kind of the legendary do you remember Bruce Hoeker: Goodness. David A. Hoag | CCCU: Charlie? Bruce Hoeker: Well he hired me. Yes, I remember. He hired me at for here at ABACC, yes. He was the board chair. Yeah. A genius. Mm hmm. Charlie. David A. Hoag | CCCU: No way. my goodness. Well, well then what we probably have stories that we can share. But Charlie had this you know, legendary CFO, but he kind of had the profile of the bulldog chain to to the treasure chest. And Bruce Hoeker: Yes, he did. David A. Hoag | CCCU: and so in 1990 I I start running this capital campaign and I'm having to do these regional events all around the United States as as I call the rubber chicken dinner circuit. And Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David A. Hoag | CCCU: we had someone that was donating a cell phone to to us it in it in advancement. And this would have been like the first cell phone. Bruce Hoeker: Mm. David A. Hoag | CCCU: And Charlie said, David, we are not gonna have cell phones at Asbury College. And and And you you know that that's it's a funny story about him kind of putting his foot down. But Charlie did some great things as a CFO, one of those that I look back to every day and I just smile. We had mandatory have to be in T IAA retirement once you get started. And I was only making thirteen thousand dollars a year as an admissions counselor back in the day. And taking three percent out of my check that That was a lot of macaroni and cheese and and other Bruce Hoeker: Right. David A. Hoag | CCCU: things that we could be eating. And it was it was bad enough that he would only pay us once a month. And and and and and and as I look back on that, my nine years at Asbury, I I put in twenty-eight thousand dollars and that's worth over three hundred thousand right now. And so Bruce Hoeker: See how that works. David A. Hoag | CCCU: so I just say, Charlie, thank you. And I apologize, Charlie, for all the times that I gave you a hard time. Bruce Hoeker: He he s you are right, legendary is the correct word. He he was an amazing guy. I I think fondly of him many, many times when I look back over my career. So y I know you have a deep appreciation for the work of the CFO. We've talked about that at length. David A. Hoag | CCCU: Mm. I do. Bruce Hoeker: and I know that the CCCU i is putting a much heavier focus on the business side of higher ed as you lean in and as you David A. Hoag | CCCU: Mm, mm, mm. Bruce Hoeker: as you continue you roll there. In your your role as president of the CCCU, what do you find that CFOs carry that the president does not? David A. Hoag | CCCU: The burden that the CFOs carry at times is a huge one. I mean it's everything, you know, as I look at some of our smaller schools, you know, they're wrestling with cash flow, they're wrestling with all the government regulations, they're looking at this thing called deferred maintenance that continues to grow and and the list just kind of goes on and Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. David A. Hoag | CCCU: on and on and One of the things that that I did, whether it was when I was an advancement VP or whether it was when I was a university president, I always worked at developing the relationship with the CFO because I felt that was so important for me to understand maybe some of the burdens even that they would share at time times. And and I didn't just want to go there when I was asking for something. And I think so many times that is the case. And so and and the other thing I would do, as you know, again with this a little bit of an auditing accounting background, I I was respected by my CFO because like, I know you have to do bad pledge adjustments and and Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. David A. Hoag | CCCU: and you can't count everything and you have to discount things and you can't count cash and pledges, you know, and and and so It the that relationship I think was so, so important. And I just think that while at times CFOs can be isolated, it is important for them to develop some friendships with other people on their cabinet. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. I would 100% agree with that. I I it's it dawned on me as you were talking about that the the role of the president in in one way is to be very positive, to present a positive David A. Hoag | CCCU: Yeah. Bruce Hoeker: view of the institution to all of its constituencies, to the public, to the students, the faculty, the staff, the donors, and David A. Hoag | CCCU: Mm. Mm. Bruce Hoeker: often the CFO, not that their job is to be negative, but much of their David A. Hoag | CCCU: Mm. Bruce Hoeker: work can. Give a negative view. We as the David A. Hoag | CCCU: Mm. Bruce Hoeker: old joke, the pres the if the CFO is the guy that says no all the time, and et cetera. David A. Hoag | CCCU: Yeah. Bruce Hoeker: there there's quite a rub there between a president's job being very David A. Hoag | CCCU: Mm. Bruce Hoeker: positive and a CFO's job sometimes feeling kind David A. Hoag | CCCU: Mm. Bruce Hoeker: of negative. How do you feel about that? What do you what do you think about that? Do you agree? David A. Hoag | CCCU: No, I I will say that's why through my career, especially once I got into leadership, I would like whenever I came up with an idea or a concept or maybe a strategy, I would go to the CFO and and say, What do you think about this? Is this realistic? You know, can we can we do it? Or what would be some things that we would need to do to make that possi possible? I used to always say to my CFO, I'm only as good as the information you give me. So think about that. The as a president, you're trying to lead, you know, from a stewardship perspective, in in the right direction and follow the strategic plan and the mission of the institution. But if I have good communication and good information and data from my CFO, I'm able to chart the course and make things happen. At the same time, I don't want to drive them nuts because maybe I have some unrealistic expectations. And so that's why I think that relationship is so important. Bruce Hoeker: I I really appreciate that you valued the advice of your CFO. Unfortunately, we find in not all schools, but many schools, there isn't David A. Hoag | CCCU: Mm. Mm-hmm. Bruce Hoeker: that same sense of appreciation. Any advice to to presidents who maybe aren't utilizing that? David A. Hoag | CCCU: Yeah, to to the presidents, invest in your team. And and again, the job of the CFO sometimes i is really hard and understand some of the burdens and challenges. And you know, like I'll give you a great example. You know, the president needs to understand how the audit's going and in a sense understand that management letter and what that looks like. And one of the things we would always do is we'd get our management letter, and before we would have the board meeting to present it to them is, I'd sit down with the CFO and go through it. What do you think? What's going to be our response to our board to say how we're going to take care of this? What can I do as the president to help support you to work through some of these different things? And this area right now of uniform guidance, you probably know what that is, Bruce. basically Bruce Hoeker: Sure do. David A. Hoag | CCCU: all the financial aid regulations. my goodness, it's like a tsunami of more and more regulatory compliance. And it's important for presidents to know that's a really big deal. And it's bigger than even just the CFO, because then it's the financial aid team. And believe it or not, the registrar's office is involved because there's timing on when people withdraw and when we can give them funding. And so it's just really important. For everybody to understand it's it's not just the CFO's problem or issue, but we all have to work together. So Bruce Hoeker: Wha what do you think though, David? Bec sometimes sometimes we're told you just have to have more faith. David A. Hoag | CCCU: I think you know, I always like to say we we have to work like it depends on us, pray like it depends on God. But you know, Bruce, I really feel that God expects us to be good stewards of our resources. And and that's making some of the right decisions, that's being missional and leaning into your Christian mission. Yes, we need to have faith. But I'll give you as a former advancement VP, I would always sometimes have to arm wrestle with the CFO on what we would set the annual fund goal budget at. And and many times a CFO would they'd work on the budget diligently with the leadership team, and then all of a sudden there's a gap. Well, the gap can't all of a sudden become the annual fund goal. Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Right. David A. Hoag | CCCU: And and so as I would work with the with with the CFOs, I'd I'd say, well, let's take a look at you know the the large gifts that we got over the last year. Are any of those repeatable? You know, sometimes it's like an estate gift or someone sold a business or i they want to give towards a certain project. And so take out those non-repeatable gifts and then come up with like a three year average. Because that to me is it's being a good steward and then not putting necessarily a burden to balance the budget on some numbers that might not be realistic. So I I always like to say, whether it's admissions or whether it's advancement, you know, have realistic goals. You know, you can still have a rah-rah goal, we want to exceed a certain number, but but put a little cushion in there or realism, even though you have faith. of of what that goal should be. Bruce Hoeker: That's beautiful advice coming from a presidential type. I love to hear it. I love to hear that. I could talk about that all day. But I have a question for you here. You wrote that when associations align their expertise, relationships, and resources, institutions get stronger. They have better practices, more effective advocacy, and a richer network of support. For the business officer, help me make that concrete. How does how does this affect An individual sitting in the CFO seat when an organization like CCCU and ABACC work together. David A. Hoag | CCCU: Sure, sure, sure. Well, several thoughts on that. we are all having challenges right now. You know, whether you're a college or university, whether you're an association, you know, health insurance keeps going up every year. So as an association, you know, we want to pay our employees and give them a raise. You know, our costs go up every year. You know, for us, you know, Bruce, you put on the conference, you know, food cost and all those things, they go up each year. And and so one of the things that I try to do is, you know, we have kind of an alliance of a group of supporting higher ed Christian associations. And I always feel we are better together. And sometimes there's this economy of scale as to how you go about and get things done. Because if if each of us do one singular item and yet Maybe we could save some time, money, and resources if we did it together. it's very similar to what I'm doing as I talk to some of our denominational institutions. So think about this. If you have the same statement of faith as another institution, can you look at ways that maybe you can help support each other and and make some of those things happen? So for instance, I call it back office. learning management system, your campus management system, ERP, things that aren't necessarily front facing with the the campus population, but things in the background that somehow can be done in a little different way. And if I if I look at our CFOs, they've done some of those things in the past by outsourcing food service and and and Bruce Hoeker: Mm. Right. David A. Hoag | CCCU: some do facilities and those types of things. But I'm seeing even schools that are regionally close together partner on some of those things, even though they might be different denominations, they both need to have the grass cut or they both need to have some different things done on their campuses. And I think by you know, trying to find ways to work together is really gonna make a difference. So like for some of these institutions. If you can have your learning management system or your ERP and some of those things, we're talking big savings, over a million dollars. We're not talking about Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Yes. David A. Hoag | CCCU: let's do a procurement plan and buy toilet paper together and save twenty nine ninety-five. That's not going to be sustainable. Bruce Hoeker: Right. Right. David A. Hoag | CCCU: But that's why I think you know, you and I are out talking to our association members about doing things like that. I know Phil Dearborn. at Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. David A. Hoag | CCCU: ABHE is doing some of the same things. And I Bruce Hoeker: Yes. David A. Hoag | CCCU: think whenever we can model some of those different ways that we can work together, we can all be better. And at the end of the day, we can serve each other better. I think another great example is on healthcare. Yeah, you know, the larger the organization, the little easier Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. David A. Hoag | CCCU: it is to do healthcare. But if you can partner with a like minded group, not another association, There's ways to make things more affordable for everybody. Bruce Hoeker: Absolutely. It and listeners, you probably don't know this. I don't know why you would know this, but Phil Dearborn and myself convene what we call the Association Executives Gathering twice a year. And it is all of the Christian higher ed association executives, including David, gather together twice a year. And one of the big things we've been talking about is exactly this shared services. Not only back end, but we've been brainstorming about what it could mean David A. Hoag | CCCU: Wrong. Bruce Hoeker: for our institutions to share on a bigger playing field. And it's been fun to do that and you've been a big proponent of that. And it was you, I believe, David, that said David A. Hoag | CCCU: Yeah. Bruce Hoeker: in our in our last gathering, if if we're going to try to convince our schools to do this, we need to talk about doing it ourselves. And that's sparked some very interesting conversations from there. David A. Hoag | CCCU: Yeah, absolutely. And, as I said, Phil Dearborn's gonna be here in town with me and we're gonna be advocating for our institutions on the hill. And you know, Phil and I, you know, he leads the Association of Biblical Higher Education. I lead this the Council for Christian Colleges and Universities, and we're both all about Christ-centered biblical, orthodox view of scripture, education, and And Phil tends to have, more s some more Bible colleges and seminaries and so forth, but we do overlap on membership. So we're trying to look at what are ways that we can work together and make it better for our our schools to thrive. Because when our schools thrive, we thrive. Bruce Hoeker: And this goes back to the very beginning of this discussion, talking about stewardship. And you you and Phil certainly are are showing how that works to to the to the larger public. I appreciate that. Speaking of the Hill, you've named government intervention and shrinking federal support as the pressures presidents feel most. Tell me a little bit about what the CCCU is doing in Washington right now that our listeners should know is being done on their behalf. David A. Hoag | CCCU: Yeah. Well, one of the things I wanna mention to the CFOs, this is this is a good for them to understand. You may wonder sometimes why your president goes to the state capitol for a day or two, a couple of times a year, and you may wonder why is the president going to Washington D C? are they just having a good time? what what's what's going on? Well, the role of the president They're they're working with the government. So let's start with the state government first. many of our states give a independent state grant to students that go to private schools in their state. And I was fortunate in Florida to work and and chair the independent colleges and universities of Florida. And at the state level, the main thing we would work on is we need to make sure that our students That are residents of the state of Florida can get a grant to go to a private Christian college, or if they want to go to, the University of Miami, which is private, or University of Tampa. We were advocating for state residents to get those grants, and that was a big deal. And so, schools like Southeastern and Palm Beach Atlantic and Warner, we benefited to the tune of Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Yeah. David A. Hoag | CCCU: $3,500 per student, regardless of need. And that really helps, lessen the load for the family. So that's an example of of things that happen at the state level. At the federal level, there's two real things that we that we work on. One is religious liberty. And you're you might say, what is that? Well, we want to make sure that you can hire, and I know most of you have HR under your area. We want to make sure that you can hire people that believe what your institution believes. Not just what your mission is of the institution, but your your statement of faith, what you believe. And depending on, you know, we're nonpartisan and you know, every administration has its own challenges. You know, right now we don't have to worry too much about religious liberty, but the big issue that we're dealing with is right now the federal government is is there's been this huge pendulum swing from the previous administration with writing off all the student debt. To now, well, we're not gonna hardly give anything out and we're only gonna give it to people that are gonna make a lot of money. Bruce Hoeker: Yes. David A. Hoag | CCCU: And so right now the big thing we're fighting is this it's things called an earnings test. So at many Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. David A. Hoag | CCCU: of our institutions, we have students that are that are pursuing degrees that are public service. And you know, it's when you're in public service, it's more of a calling. Yeah, you know, you're doing it because it's kind of ministry and calling and Bruce Hoeker: Right. David A. Hoag | CCCU: you have areas social work and education and ministry, and the list kind of goes on and on. And so right now they're comparing what someone who doesn't have a college degree is making four years out compared to what's a graduate four years out making. And while some majors that's not a big deal, but in some of these others, it's gonna be a big deal. And while this is while there's such an existential threat is they'll they will tell you if you have a failing program and then all of a sudden you have to you know put at something on your website that these three programs Bruce Hoeker: Yes. David A. Hoag | CCCU: are failing. I call it the classic government shameless. You're gonna have to tell all the Bruce Hoeker: Mm. David A. Hoag | CCCU: students in that program that it's failing. And if you fail twice, you literally can lose federal funding. And if you And conceivably you could lose all of your Title IV federal funding and that Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. David A. Hoag | CCCU: would be a checkmate. So that would be, you know, everything from PEL to student loans. And, you know, Bruce, one of the things I do as a part of this role is I meet with different board boards from our different institutions and I put a slide up there that shows there I I like to say this is your biggest donor. Now I could Bruce Hoeker: Mm. David A. Hoag | CCCU: do that in every state but Indiana because Indiana has this bank thing called Lily, and many of them are we're getting over twenty million dollars a year. Bruce Hoeker: Yes. Right, right. David A. Hoag | CCCU: but but you know, I was at a school up in Winona Lake and and they get fourteen million dollars a year from the federal government. So that's Pell Grants Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. David A. Hoag | CCCU: and loans and those different types of things. And and I like to articulate to the boards, you know, this is your largest donor. I would love to tell you it's gonna go up every year, but I think our dependency needs to be on the Lord, not on the federal government. So Bruce Hoeker: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. David A. Hoag | CCCU: what are things that we can do on our campus to start addressing some of those issues? Bruce Hoeker: Well, we certainly appreciate the work that you do 'cause it is of absolute vital importance. W what can our listeners do to help? David A. Hoag | CCCU: Well, I I tell you what, one of the things that that I like to to say that we need to do is, you know, again, value your president's job to do that. Sometimes maybe even encourage him to say, hey, how about we ask the senator to be on our campus? Or w you bring your local congressman to campus because sometimes it's good for them to see the story of what's actually happening and to see that Christian mission. that's taking place. So that's one thing. The other thing that I do is, especially when I'm with boards, most boards don't have everybody from the same state in which their their school's located. And so, you know, on this issue right now that we're dealing with on the earnings test, we have thirteen c senators that that we need to be reaching out to that are on this help education committee in the Senate. And so I'm saying, okay, yeah, if you were XYZ school in Oklahoma, you need to contact, you know, your senators. If you're in Colorado, you know, need to contact your senator. And so it's important at times like this that we mobilize our community as much as possible. Bruce Hoeker: Very important folks, I hope you follow through on that. That's that's incredible. We need to be doing it. David, where you sit, you can see more than a hundred and eighty five campuses at once. It's a unique position. What is the thing a business officer carries alone that you know they do not have to? David A. Hoag | CCCU: Every dollar matters. And every dollar matters, and I think part of your role, the role of a CFO, it is to help articulate to the leadership team how every dollar matters, or sometimes providing data to show, you know, I I know you want to do this. But actually this is what it's costing. And one of the exercises I did tied to that is I looked at faculty loads. So think about this. I had a report made, every faculty member, how many classes they taught, how many students were in each class, and then literally I had a chart that would say, Okay, Professor Jones, he's teaching this many credits, and then Professor Smith, they're teaching this many credits. And it was a way that I could educate the cabinet to every to understand, it's all about billable hours. So if you let Professor Jones only teach nine hours instead of twelve, that means I have to go out and spend three thousand dollars to find somebody else to teach that class. And so I think the role of the the CFO or one of the roles is to articulate every dollar matters and try to help educate. your leadership team on on on things like this because I know you sometimes internally hold this frustration, but I think partially it's, you know, like the academic VP they don't necessarily understand. And so part of your role is almost like lifelong education, educate them on on the economics of how Christian higher ed finance works. Bruce Hoeker: Well, I I a big part of this show is to help our listeners understand and truly feel that they are not alone, that they do have support out there. They have friends, they have colleagues, and the CCCU is absolutely one of those supports. So we we very much appreciate what you're doing. There there's a fight going on in Washington on behalf of these institutions that most business officers really never see. What do you want them to know? About how the C C C U is in their corner. David A. Hoag | CCCU: So w we do three main things. first of all, we we try to support our institutions based on where they are, and one of the things we do tied to that is our sustainability index because we want institutions to really understand their health and primarily we want the board to understand how healthy they are. Second, we do this leadership development and faith integration, so so important. But you know, one of the pillars we're known for is this advocacy work. that we do on the hill that we've been doing for fifty years. And as I see the headwinds that we're facing, the economics of higher ed are already challenging. And I'm really concerned right now that with the government looking at the value of every dollar that they pay out, they want kind of an ROI. The we've got to do a good job trying to articulate that that's not the case. So whatever they can do to encourage their president to do some advocacy or encourage them to get some people on their campus like their senator or their congressman, I think that would be really helpful. And and please know anybody watching, some of my team we do come and speak to boards and even cabinets at times. And if if we could help facilitate one of those meetings, we'd be more than willing to do that. Bruce Hoeker: We appreciate that so much. David, I know you spend a lot of time with presidents, with boards, a handful of CFOs here and there, but you have a a a nation full of CFOs that are listening, hopefully listening in on this broadcast today. This is your chance. What would you like to tell David A. Hoag | CCCU: Mm. Bruce Hoeker: the CFOs of the Christian higher ed world? David A. Hoag | CCCU: You are in a key role for your institution. I would encourage you to develop better relationships with your with your leadership team and with your president. I do think the relationship of the CFO and the president is so, so important. And so I would encourage you to do your part. in that relationship because presidents are only going to be as good as the financial information that they have. And at the same time, you need to just brutally tell the truth and and make sure that you can articulate to them exactly where they are. And that is just a super, super important role. And so I would just say develop that relationship and And the schools that I see doing well, there's normally a good relationship between the CFO and the president because they have to navigate all this together and with all the regulatory changes, it's just really complicated right now. Bruce Hoeker: David, the you you exude love for the Lord. You exude love for private higher education. Thank you so much for all that you do. Thank you for the work that the C C C U does on all of our behalf. Thanks for being on the show and come back to Grand Rapids soon. David A. Hoag | CCCU: Well, Bruce, thank you so much. And I look forward to coming to ABACC. I think this is going to be my third ABACC and I get to present with some of the folks from Cape and Krause. And again at the conference, if there's anything I can do for some of the CFOs that have some questions on these relationships, I'm more than willing to have. Bruce Hoeker: Appreciate that. We will see you there, if not before. In nineteen ninety, a CFO named Charlie Fisco told a young David Hoag there would be no cell phones at Asbury College. Charlie also made him put 3% of a $13,000 paycheck into his retirement. Over nine years, David put in his 3%, just like he was told. And today it's worth more than ten times that. More than thirty years later, his message was simple. Charlie, thank you. Some of the no's you say this year won't get a thank you for a long time. Say them anyway. Tell the truth, brutally, as David puts it, and build a relationship with your president long before you need it. Thank you for listening to the ABACC podcast. If you heard yourself somewhere in this conversation, you're not the only one feeling it. We're all working through it together. Come find your people at myabacc.org. As we finish up, one more quick word from our sponsor.