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When Mental Health Gets...Strange · Life TV now

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Speaker 1: The views and opinions expressed in this program are those
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Speaker 1: of the participants and do not necessarily reflect those of
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Speaker 1: the network or its affiliates. This content is for informational
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Speaker 1: purposes only and should not be considered medical advice nor
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Speaker 1: treated as a replacement for diagnosis or treatment. Please consult
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Speaker 1: your healthcare provider of choice regarding any personal changes to
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Speaker 1: your health or treatment plan. There are battles fought in
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Speaker 1: places no one can see. Battles for our thoughts, our emotions,
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Speaker 1: even our minds. Modern psychology has given us powerful ways
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Speaker 1: to understand mental health, but what if some struggles reach
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Speaker 1: beyond the psychological? Today we venture into the unsettling territory
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Speaker 1: where mental health, the mind, and the spirit realm collide. Hello, everybody,
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Speaker 1: and welcome back to Life TV Now, where we unpack
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Speaker 1: all matters of truth, faith, and freedom. I'm your host,
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Speaker 1: Joe Artishorn. Today, we're going to be unpacking some territory
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Speaker 1: that I think you may find profound, and you may
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Speaker 1: be praying through now, somebody in your family, maybe you
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Speaker 1: yourself dealing with things like anxiety, depression, deep and dark
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Speaker 1: thoughts that you find difficult to share with others, maybe
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Speaker 1: thoughts you don't want to open up about. This could
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Speaker 1: be a matter of spiritual warfare, and we're going to
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Speaker 1: be talking about it right now. But before we dive in,
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Speaker 1: let me introduce who's here. She's an integrative nutrition health
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Speaker 1: coach with a master of science in health education. Please
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Speaker 1: welcome our executive director, Jamie Woodall. And she's a licensed
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Speaker 1: clinical mental health counselor with over 20 years of experience
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Speaker 1: combining clinical expertise with a deeply biblical worldview. She's the
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Speaker 1: founder of Mental Warrior Consulting and author of the new book,
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Speaker 1: Humanity Under Siege. Please welcome Dr. Natalie Atwell. Let's hit
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Speaker 1: the ground running. And I'm going to start by bringing
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Speaker 1: her new book up on the screen. And I'm going
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Speaker 1: to read to you the subtitle. Take a look at this.
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Speaker 1: Humanity Under Siege, The Unseen Realm and the Spiritual War
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Speaker 1: Against the Human Mind by Dr. Natalie Atwell. And I
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Speaker 1: want to say right at the onset, the unseen realm.
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Speaker 1: You know, those words are very synonymous with the late,
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Speaker 1: great Dr. Michael Heiser. I can't tell you how proud
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Speaker 1: I am to be able to have published this book,
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Speaker 1: Defender Publishing, putting out this masterpiece. We feel that it's timely.
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Speaker 1: The Unseen Realm, this was something we talked with Dr.
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Speaker 1: Michael Heiser about a lot. You've taken this book into
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Speaker 1: places that no one has before. So if you were
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Speaker 1: a huge fan of Dr. Michael Heiser, this is not
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Speaker 1: one you're going to want to miss, but I promise
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Speaker 1: you it's not a rehash of things you've been through before.
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Speaker 1: What you've done... to framework the spiritual effects of people
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Speaker 1: maybe suffering from things like sleep paralysis, people that feel
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Speaker 1: like they're being held down at night, people that have
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Speaker 1: shame cycles. Maybe they don't even recognize why they're dealing
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Speaker 1: with depression. And maybe for some of you, you're even saying,
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Speaker 1: God has not given me a spirit of fear. What
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Speaker 1: is this? I can look logically and take receipt of
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Speaker 1: my life. I should have all the things that complete me,
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Speaker 1: but man, I'm carrying these thoughts and I can't talk
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Speaker 1: to my pastor about it because, well, that would sound
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Speaker 1: like depression. How many people right now, a huge number
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Speaker 1: of people in the population dealing with things like depression,
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Speaker 1: really dark thoughts of unaliving themselves. And we're talking about
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Speaker 1: not just people out there in the secular surplus of
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Speaker 1: planet earth. We're talking about people that would self-identify as
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Speaker 1: members of the body of Christ. Before we dive into
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Speaker 1: some of these root causes, before we start dissecting the
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Speaker 1: spiritual ways that people might be being affected, even if
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Speaker 1: they profess themselves to be walking in Christ, the kind
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Speaker 1: of battle that we all sometimes deal with, what originally
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Speaker 1: led to you becoming a mental health professional?
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Speaker 2: Well, thank you for asking that. And unlike many people
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Speaker 2: in the field who would say, I had a terrible
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Speaker 2: childhood and in rough adolescent years. So I went into
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Speaker 2: therapy and that led me to want to do that
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Speaker 2: one day. That wasn't my story. My story was being
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Speaker 2: raised by people who were servant-hearted and who wanted to
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Speaker 2: be about God's work and helping people in the body.
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Speaker 2: And my mom worked in a guidance office in a
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Speaker 2: local high school, and I got to interact with a
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Speaker 2: lot of the people that she worked with in the
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Speaker 2: counseling field. So that actually made me think about that
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Speaker 2: as a career. So I went into originally being a
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Speaker 2: school counselor and did that for about 10 years. And
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Speaker 2: then God led me into the private practice realm. And honestly,
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Speaker 2: if you would have told me as a teenager, this
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Speaker 2: is what you're going to grow up to do and
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Speaker 2: be one day, I would have thought you were crazy.
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Speaker 2: No pun intended. But honestly, I think in my life,
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Speaker 2: when God says, walk in this one step of obedience,
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Speaker 2: each step of obedience with the Lord has led me
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Speaker 2: to where I am today. So I would say ultimately
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Speaker 2: it was the Lord saying, say yes to this, and
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Speaker 2: I'm going to take you down this amazing path that
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Speaker 2: you will never imagine the journey that we're going to
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Speaker 2: go on together.
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Speaker 1: After more than 20 years as a counselor, what started
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Speaker 1: happening in your practice that made you think, I've never
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Speaker 1: seen this before? And I will just say before you
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Speaker 1: answer that, I will just say that once upon a time,
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Speaker 1: I am eating recklessly. I am living recklessly. I am
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Speaker 1: drinking recklessly. I would have self-professed to be a Christian,
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Speaker 1: but I did not know, and we're not going to
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Speaker 1: talk about all of this today, but I did not
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Speaker 1: know that I was dealing with something called methyl tetrahydrofolate reductase. Wait, what? MTHFR,
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Speaker 1: it's a genetic snip. It means that I have a
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Speaker 1: hard time processing things like B12. So I had people
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Speaker 1: praying over me. I had people saying, you know, that
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Speaker 1: boy is oppressed. Grew up with ADHD, OCD. Doctors wanted
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Speaker 1: to medicate me. And my mother, who's in the audience
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Speaker 1: here today, and did this spiritually now, Dr. Natalie, refused,
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Speaker 1: she had a discernment that said, do not medicate this boy.
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Speaker 1: And so while the doctors, and this was way back
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Speaker 1: in the 80s, they thought, you know, for sure doctors
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Speaker 1: at this time, my family was totally, you know, subscribing
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Speaker 1: to the Western medicine train and all, but this one exception,
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Speaker 1: my mom's like, no, it's something about this. Medicate the boy,
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Speaker 1: you're going to change his personality. This is not going
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Speaker 1: to be good for him. So she's a hero because
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Speaker 1: she literally saved my life. What we didn't know is
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Speaker 1: that I had genetic snips that would affect my body's
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Speaker 1: methylation process. This is how you absorb, receive, convert, store nutrition.
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Speaker 1: So I had issues with B12. This is huge for
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Speaker 1: neurological health and stuff. How did it manifest is the point. Depression, anxiety.
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Speaker 1: So there could be aspects of this that are diet
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Speaker 1: and lifestyle, but we're not gonna pick those apart to
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Speaker 1: death today. There's also the line of thinking though, that
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Speaker 1: if you already have a predisposition for weakness, I have
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Speaker 1: people here in the audience today that are dealing with
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Speaker 1: special needs foster children. They've been diagnosed with things. Sometimes
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Speaker 1: we overlook the spirit realm. Or a pastor will say
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Speaker 1: something generic like they did in my case. Well, that
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Speaker 1: boy's just troubled. He needs a good discipline. Well, in
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Speaker 1: my case, it helped very much to get genetic testing
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Speaker 1: and to get some nutritional things tweaked for me. But
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Speaker 1: I wouldn't discover that until my early 30s. So it
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Speaker 1: makes me wonder, getting back to my question, you as
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Speaker 1: a practitioner, you as a counselor, watching 20 years of
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Speaker 1: doing this work, was there something that you started to
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Speaker 1: recognize was either genetic or maybe spiritual? Something happened where
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Speaker 1: you thought to yourself, I've never seen this before.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really more of me seeing patterns that
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Speaker 2: were developing over a period of time. that seem to
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Speaker 2: be increasing. So patterns such as clients reporting unusual spiritual experiences,
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Speaker 2: clients coming in who are professing to be Christians who
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Speaker 2: are dabbling in unbiblical spiritual practices, such as new age
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Speaker 2: type practices or the occult. Yeah, it really is. And unfortunately,
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Speaker 2: a lot of believers don't really realize what they're doing.
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Speaker 2: They're not going to the scriptures to see, is this
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Speaker 2: helpful or not? They're just probably to your point, Jo, saying, hey,
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Speaker 2: someone recommended this. Why don't I just try it? So
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Speaker 2: the patterns of all these things together really made me
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Speaker 2: and my staff collectively say, there's something strange going on here.
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Speaker 2: We're seeing it, not just for me, because I have
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Speaker 2: a larger staff in my practice. So we were able
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Speaker 2: to collect anecdotal data to say this is happening across
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Speaker 2: the board. And we live in the Bible Belt too.
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Speaker 2: So if it's happening there, you could argue it's happening
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Speaker 2: wider in the culture. For sure.
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Speaker 1: How many have heard that old expression that ignorance is
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Speaker 1: no obfuscation from the law? Do you know what I
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Speaker 1: mean by that? So you're doing 65 miles an hour
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Speaker 1: in a 30 mile an hour zone. You didn't know
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Speaker 1: that there was a law but you're still guilty of
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Speaker 1: breaking the law. So the judge is going to acknowledge
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Speaker 1: or take receipt of the officer's ticket and you're gonna
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Speaker 1: end up paying something, right? So when you were talking,
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Speaker 1: I was wondering, when you say self-proclaimed, this is so important,
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Speaker 1: self-proclaimed Christians not discerning actual biblical truth, practicing even unknowingly
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Speaker 1: in the occult or new age ism, do you find
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Speaker 1: in your practice that you see it really doesn't matter
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Speaker 1: what a person professes, if they are dabbling, if they
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Speaker 1: are opening portals, if they are secretly indulging in adult
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Speaker 1: content online, any number of things, are you saying there
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Speaker 1: are consequences?
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Speaker 2: Absolutely. 100% of the time, there are consequences with the things.
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Speaker 2: The consequences might look different depending on how you use it,
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Speaker 2: depending on how it's operating without your life. But the
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Speaker 2: consequences that we are seeing are influencing the mental health realm.
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Speaker 1: Was there a point when your clinical training simply didn't
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Speaker 1: seem to explain everything you were seeing? I'm sure you
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Speaker 1: went through tons of schooling. It's frameworked in some of
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Speaker 1: the things I mentioned minutes ago. It's about medication. It's about,
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Speaker 1: you know, they've got all these frameworks and boxes where
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Speaker 1: if you see these side effects, this is the box
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Speaker 1: that gets checked. If a person's behaving like this, this
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Speaker 1: is the name of the disease. Did you get to
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Speaker 1: a place where you're like, man, these protocols just don't
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Speaker 1: explain all of this? Yes.
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Speaker 2: And I want to be careful to acknowledge that I
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Speaker 2: have good clinical training and I'm very thankful for that.
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Speaker 2: And The world of psychology often gets a bad name,
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Speaker 2: especially within faith communities. But there's a lot of good
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Speaker 2: that it does to help us explain what is going
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Speaker 2: on with a person. But unfortunately, where it lacks is
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Speaker 2: helping you to understand why it's happening. And that's a
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Speaker 2: really important distinction to make that I don't think psychology
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Speaker 2: always answers, especially when believers are coming in saying, I'm
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Speaker 2: struggling with these things, yet I've tried to do all
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Speaker 2: the right things. So really, it humbled me as a
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Speaker 2: clinician to to say, hey, I need to start asking
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Speaker 2: some deeper questions. I need to really consider what I
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Speaker 2: call the unseen realm as a part of something that's
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Speaker 2: interacting with the precious people that God has placed in
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Speaker 2: my path to be able to treat and walk alongside.
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Speaker 1: You know, this is quite a title. This is quite
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Speaker 1: a title. You're calling it humanity under siege. Under siege.
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Speaker 1: That is a pretty serious statement. Who or what do
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Speaker 1: you believe is behind this siege? And why does the
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Speaker 1: mind seem to be such a major battleground?
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Speaker 2: I'm glad that you asked that because, again, clinicians don't
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Speaker 2: often consider the unseen realm as a possibility of what's
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Speaker 2: going on with someone. But if scripture takes it seriously,
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Speaker 2: I believe we should as well. So there's a message
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Speaker 2: not just for believers and for therapists who are Christian,
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Speaker 2: but really for the community at large in mental health
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Speaker 2: to consider that this could be something attacking humans. And
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Speaker 2: I say that because I believe that's what it is.
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Speaker 2: And human beings are precious to God because we were
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Speaker 2: created in his image. And that's a special status that
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Speaker 2: we were given. And because of the image of God,
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Speaker 2: where we are called to represent him, That's where I
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Speaker 2: believe the spiritual forces in the unseen realm, the ones
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Speaker 2: that are evil, that are going against the Most High God,
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Speaker 2: are trying to battle against humans. And you ask, you know,
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Speaker 2: why is it in the mental health aspect or the mind?
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Speaker 2: And that's because that's where lies come into place. The
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Speaker 2: beliefs that you have about yourself, where fear can come
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Speaker 2: in and take over your identity. So the mind is
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Speaker 2: so powerful in us representing God well. So of course
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Speaker 2: the enemies of God want to go after that.
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Speaker 1: Natalie, something I know that you're aware of, my family
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Speaker 1: has done child advocacy for decades. And we've worked with
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Speaker 1: some of the most precious individuals that you'll ever meet.
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Speaker 1: Some of them have been viciously accosted at the hands
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Speaker 1: of malevolent abusers. Some of them, it's just been verbal abuse.
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Speaker 1: For some of them, it's a simple matter of neglect.
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Speaker 1: They're malnourished. They're not getting fed properly. They have to
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Speaker 1: take things home from the public school lunch system to
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Speaker 1: have something over the weekend. And they're hoping that nobody
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Speaker 1: catches them tucking things away because otherwise they have nothing
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Speaker 1: to eat. And one of the things that I've said
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Speaker 1: for years, if a person watching this program has followed
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Speaker 1: the Horn family ministerial career, is that I'm not shaming
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Speaker 1: or attacking psychological programs. I'm not hitting when I talk
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Speaker 1: about doctors that want to medicate. I'm not attacking them.
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Speaker 1: I'm not even beclowning them or suggesting. They don't have
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Speaker 1: a very valuable place in determining what might be wrong
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Speaker 1: with somebody from a chemical standpoint, from a mental standpoint.
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Speaker 1: There are literally just sometimes mental derangements. People that have
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Speaker 1: multiple personalities. There are cases where people have all kinds
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Speaker 1: of trauma-induced outcomes. They're projecting an alternate, they call it
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Speaker 1: an object state. It's some place where they find that
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Speaker 1: they can be safe, but it's a projection of a
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Speaker 1: persona that they've created. Their subconscious is... Anyway, the point is,
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Speaker 1: I'm not saying that psychologists don't have a hugely valuable
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Speaker 1: role in sometimes determining what's wrong with a child, but
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Speaker 1: here is what I've said for years and years. Many
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Speaker 1: of the ones that are doing this work in the
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Speaker 1: secular miss one of the most paramount pillars to the
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Speaker 1: whole conversation, and that is the spirit realm. Right. They
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Speaker 1: only take into the fact that it might be genetics
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Speaker 1: or that it might be a need for a medication
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Speaker 1: or we're going to label it this or that. I
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Speaker 1: think that it's true that you and I could agree
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Speaker 1: on in the same way that I might go about
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Speaker 1: helping somebody with a thyroid imbalance, a lifestyle, a nutritional standpoint,
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Speaker 1: that some of these children, you have to factor in
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Speaker 1: the spirit realm as a part of what might be wrong.
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Speaker 1: You're talking about shame cycles and traumas, oppressive spirits that
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Speaker 1: would love to see that child totally intercepted away from
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Speaker 1: God's calling for their life. As a trained clinician, was
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Speaker 1: there a time where you found that it was difficult
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Speaker 1: to even entertain the idea that some cases, some of
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Speaker 1: the people you were working with might be dealing with
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Speaker 1: something spiritual and not just the psychological?
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Speaker 2: Sure. I mean, absolutely. At times, you know, clinically and
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Speaker 2: because of my training, I always want to go that
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Speaker 2: route first, you know, make sure we rule out all
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Speaker 2: the possibilities that I have been trained in, make sure
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Speaker 2: they're talking to their medical providers, that there are things
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Speaker 2: like that. But I'm so glad you mentioned children because
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Speaker 2: I have found in my practice that children are almost
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Speaker 2: always the ones who are affected the hardest. And I
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Speaker 2: think that's because in Scripture, you know, Jesus said, children
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Speaker 2: are precious to me. And so if they are precious
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Speaker 2: to the Father, then the enemies of God are certainly
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Speaker 2: going to attack them. So I think if we don't
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Speaker 2: think about the unseen spiritual realm as a possibility of
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Speaker 2: interacting with children, then we're missing something. We're missing something
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Speaker 2: really important. So I think, again, if Scripture tells us
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Speaker 2: it exists and children are precious, precious to God, then
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Speaker 2: we need to consider the fact that there could be
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Speaker 2: something going on. So I wanted a framework to help
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Speaker 2: me understand and to be able to treat it in
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Speaker 2: an excellent way, but also a biblical way.
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Speaker 3: I think another aspect when it comes to children is
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Speaker 3: that they are so young, they don't know how to
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Speaker 3: put on the full armor of God or haven't been
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Speaker 3: taught it. And so that is where we as parents
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Speaker 3: need to step in and pray over our children to
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Speaker 3: protect them. And of course, the majority of children don't
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Speaker 3: have that So they're even more vulnerable to the attack
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Speaker 3: of the enemy.
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Speaker 1: The reason that this book to me is so important
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Speaker 1: is because it does the opposite of what I was
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Speaker 1: describing a minute ago in that it doesn't divorce the
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Speaker 1: possibility of a spirit realm. And it actually, if you're
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Speaker 1: talking about diet, lifestyle, nutrition, medication, spirit realm is probably
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Speaker 1: one of the pillars that has got to be examined.
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Speaker 1: And I guess that's what I meant when I said
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Speaker 1: some of these secular programs, the kids that we've served,
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Speaker 1: it isn't until Jesus is introduced into the equation and
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Speaker 1: they commit their life to him that they finally feel
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Speaker 1: that elation and the joy and the shedding of what
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Speaker 1: has been generational trauma. And a lot of these kids,
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Speaker 1: they're aimed at becoming the next abuser. This is going
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Speaker 1: to be cyclical. This is going to be my father,
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Speaker 1: his father before him, his father before him. And now
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Speaker 1: me as the child, I'm going to do what I've
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Speaker 1: been trained and taught. And this is how life is.
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Speaker 1: And so I'm going to be the next abuser and
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Speaker 1: then therefore my son. And so some of this is
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Speaker 1: spiritual trauma. I know that people watching this program though, Natalie,
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Speaker 1: they're probably thinking, okay, without violating anybody's privacy, can you
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Speaker 1: share some of the cases or symptoms that you've experienced
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Speaker 1: where you've thought, okay, this isn't totally all psychological. There's
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Speaker 1: a spiritual component to this that is either feeding the
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Speaker 1: psychological or making worse the psychological.
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Speaker 2: Sure. Some when they first come in, some clients, when
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Speaker 2: they first come in, there's some things that are more
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Speaker 2: glaringly obvious that there could be some spiritual darkness there.
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Speaker 2: But we don't always start there. We go the normal
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Speaker 2: modes of treatment first. But really, in most clients, where
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Speaker 2: that has come out is over time after treating them,
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Speaker 2: if we can't move the needle of their healing, if
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Speaker 2: we feel like this method or modality of treatment is
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Speaker 2: not working, if maybe they have tried medication to manage
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Speaker 2: symptoms for a small period of time, And just nothing
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Speaker 2: seems to be working over time. That's where I feel
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Speaker 2: God has shown me you need to ask some deeper questions.
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Speaker 2: There could be more going on here. And so one
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Speaker 2: of the examples that I share, and I have permission
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Speaker 2: to share because I know stories are important and that matters,
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Speaker 2: is a client that I had for a very long time.
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Speaker 2: And she battled with something I would call health anxiety.
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Speaker 2: Maybe you know someone like that who just has overwhelming fear,
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Speaker 2: debilitating anxiety. anxiety of going to the doctor. And... Wait
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Speaker 2: a minute.
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Speaker 1: Wait a minute.
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Speaker 3: Is it you?
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Speaker 1: Did I tell you about that? No, I'm sorry. Go ahead. No,
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Speaker 1: I have tremendous anxiety going to giant hospitals, but it's
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Speaker 1: neither here nor there. Continue, please.
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Speaker 2: And I'm not saying this is the case for everyone who.
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Speaker 1: May have experienced that. But I swear it's not me.
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Speaker 2: I swear this is not me.
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Speaker 1: Go ahead.
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Speaker 2: It's a female, actually. And I talk about this in
19:28
Speaker 2: the book a little bit too, but with that client specifically,
19:33
Speaker 2: I really felt like the Lord, the Holy Spirit said
19:35
Speaker 2: to me, ask some deeper questions. Think about what I've
19:38
Speaker 2: been showing you about the unseen realm and about spiritual
19:41
Speaker 2: warfare and just ask her these questions. And she was
19:44
Speaker 2: sort of a safe one for me to start changing
19:47
Speaker 2: my treatment with and then introducing like asking some spiritual
19:50
Speaker 2: questions for her. So I'm really thankful for her in
19:53
Speaker 2: that way. But once we started asking some deeper questions,
19:57
Speaker 2: and I've created an assessment specifically for that, and we
20:00
Speaker 2: talk about that in the book as well, like how
20:02
Speaker 2: to ask these questions, what deeper questions there may be.
20:05
Speaker 2: And we were able to uncover a potential reason for
20:10
Speaker 2: why she had some health anxiety. And it started with
20:15
Speaker 2: an instance when she was in the sixth grade. It's
20:17
Speaker 2: like by asking the questions, the Lord showed her this
20:22
Speaker 2: is where this started. And it had to do with
20:24
Speaker 2: an experience she had at a neighbor's house that involved
20:28
Speaker 2: her participating in a Ouija board activity game. And the
20:33
Speaker 2: parents there were doing some illegal drugs. And when she left,
20:37
Speaker 2: even as a young child, she felt conviction because she
20:40
Speaker 2: was raised in a Christian home. And she said from
20:43
Speaker 2: that moment on, that was really the catalyst of where
20:46
Speaker 2: I feel like this started. So once we were able
20:48
Speaker 2: to identify the why, there was some huge progress in
20:53
Speaker 2: her treatment. And we went through the biblical treatment model.
20:56
Speaker 2: I feel like God gave me just according to Scripture
20:59
Speaker 2: to help her. And praise God to this day, she
21:02
Speaker 2: does not struggle with it as she once did.
21:04
Speaker 1: Wow. That's wonderful. Thank you. No, this is not going
21:11
Speaker 1: to be what we're talking about today, but I will
21:13
Speaker 1: just share for context, because I know we're going to
21:15
Speaker 1: have viewers out there that say, Joe Horn experiences anxiety,
21:18
Speaker 1: and yet he has said God has not given us
21:20
Speaker 1: a spirit of fear. Here's some context. Over 30 years
21:24
Speaker 1: of what I call fishing expeditions. This was before God
21:27
Speaker 1: realigned my life and put me with natural naturopath, homeopathic doctors, chiropractors,
21:33
Speaker 1: some of the people that helped begin the process of
21:36
Speaker 1: getting me off of the surgery trains and the big
21:39
Speaker 1: testing trains and stuff. People like Dr. Josh Vance and Dr.
21:43
Speaker 1: Matthew Sams and my good buddy Daniel Belt and Dr.
21:46
Speaker 1: Ralph Umbriaco and now Dr. Ann Hines and my good
21:49
Speaker 1: friend Billy Coppedge. And now I've got this huge tribe
21:52
Speaker 1: of people, Dr. Steve Hewlett, Dr. Brian Artis. We've got
21:56
Speaker 1: this huge tribe of people that understand God's medicines. And
22:01
Speaker 1: they help my children. They help, we juxtapose. What are
22:04
Speaker 1: your clients saying? What are your patients? I've got this
22:05
Speaker 1: huge network of people that have expertise in different fields.
22:09
Speaker 1: Natural medicine, God's medicine. But for those that don't know,
22:13
Speaker 1: the first 30 years of my life was being cut on, tested,
22:17
Speaker 1: CT scans. They looked multiple times, thought I was dying
22:21
Speaker 1: from different things. And so when I say I have
22:23
Speaker 1: tremendous anxiety, there is a, and maybe Natalie, not that
22:25
Speaker 1: I'm asking her on this TV program to start you know,
22:29
Speaker 1: analyzing me. But I'm just telling you, and this is
22:33
Speaker 1: probably going to be textbook for you, but I have
22:35
Speaker 1: an association with those big hospitals of entrapment and panic
22:40
Speaker 1: and foreboding test results. And I'm like, I don't even
22:44
Speaker 1: want to go in. I got this deal with God
22:46
Speaker 1: where I'm going to fall over in a field someday.
22:48
Speaker 1: I'm going to go out with my boots on. I
22:50
Speaker 1: don't like going in unless I absolutely feel that someone
22:54
Speaker 1: in my family's life is at risk. Some very fast
22:57
Speaker 1: moving thing that has to do with a cardiovascular moment.
23:00
Speaker 1: But even then I'm asking God the whole time, let
23:03
Speaker 1: me just learn something from this experience that I can
23:06
Speaker 1: take back to God's people because I don't want This
23:10
Speaker 1: is Joe Horn speaking. I don't want the medications. I
23:13
Speaker 1: don't want the surgeries. I don't want the cutting. I
23:15
Speaker 1: don't want the testing. I don't want that. I want
23:17
Speaker 1: to explore first what God has in terms of his
23:19
Speaker 1: medicine cabinet to bring true healing and corrections. So when
23:22
Speaker 1: I go into those big hospitals, I'm grateful for the
23:25
Speaker 1: people that are the heroes in the middle of the
23:26
Speaker 1: night that do triage when you've been in a car accident.
23:30
Speaker 1: It has a place. But if I'm being honest, Joe
23:33
Speaker 1: Horn is not beyond a little bit of this. And
23:36
Speaker 1: ticks also get me there. I don't like tick bites.
23:39
Speaker 1: But anyway. Well, ladies and gentlemen, I want you to
23:42
Speaker 1: know that right now you can get Dr. Natalie Atwell's
23:45
Speaker 1: powerful new book, Humanity Under Siege, The Unseen Realm and
23:48
Speaker 1: the Spiritual War Against the Mind at edensessentials.com by itself
23:53
Speaker 1: for only $ 24. 95 plus shipping and handling. Or you can
23:57
Speaker 1: take advantage of a very special three-book package we've put
24:00
Speaker 1: together that includes Dr. Thomas Horne, The Early Years Exploring
24:05
Speaker 1: Spiritual Warfare, demonic strongholds, and the unseen battle all around us. Plus,
24:10
Speaker 1: his best-selling book, Summoning the Demon, a prophetic investigation into
24:14
Speaker 1: artificial intelligence, transhumanism, and the biblical image of the beast.
24:19
Speaker 1: So you can help support this program when you purchase
24:21
Speaker 1: Humanity Under Siege all by itself for only $ 24. 95 plus
24:26
Speaker 1: shipping and handling, or get all three books right now
24:29
Speaker 1: for just $ 39. 95 plus shipping and handling at edensessentials.com. You
24:34
Speaker 1: can scan the QR code on your screen right now
24:37
Speaker 1: to take advantage of this special opportunity right now. It's
24:43
Speaker 1: not an opportunity that you're going to want to miss
24:46
Speaker 1: out on. Natalie, before we run out of time, though,
24:49
Speaker 1: one of the things I want to ask you about,
24:51
Speaker 1: you've done a lot of work outside the United States.
24:53
Speaker 1: Are these strange patterns, the things that you've picked up
24:56
Speaker 1: in your practice, these obviously aren't exclusive to the US.
25:00
Speaker 1: Do they look different, though, when you go to a
25:02
Speaker 1: completely different culture? Do you see a different spread of
25:06
Speaker 1: like social anxieties or things that fuel different types of
25:11
Speaker 1: mental unwellness?
25:13
Speaker 2: Sure. Human beings are human beings. So there's a lot
25:16
Speaker 2: that are similar no matter where you go. But cultural
25:20
Speaker 2: aspects definitely matter because it explains how we talk about
25:24
Speaker 2: our problems, how we experience things. You're dealing with different
25:28
Speaker 2: generational problems as well. So sometimes, especially in the cultures
25:32
Speaker 2: that I've been in, they tend to over-spiritualize things. And
25:36
Speaker 2: that's one of the distinctions that I think it's important
25:38
Speaker 2: to make too, because in this.
25:40
Speaker 1: Book, I'll talk about that.
25:42
Speaker 2: Some spiritual communities that are Christian faith-based can over-spiritualize problems
25:47
Speaker 2: that don't need to be. So that's really important too.
25:49
Speaker 2: So my work outside of the U.S., has had to
25:52
Speaker 2: help distinguish those problems in that realm as well as like, okay,
25:57
Speaker 2: let's just look at things from the normal mental health
25:59
Speaker 2: field as well. Let's not necessarily make everything a demon,
26:02
Speaker 2: for lack.
26:03
Speaker 1: Of a better word.
26:04
Speaker 2: Because it's not always that way, and we don't need
26:07
Speaker 2: to make people feel that it is as well.
26:09
Speaker 3: I think it could be a lot to do with
26:10
Speaker 3: health too, with all the genetic mutations that we're having
26:13
Speaker 3: now and poor gut health. There's a lot of factors
26:16
Speaker 3: at play.
26:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, one of my favorite ministers of all time, Joe Jordan.
26:20
Speaker 1: Do you guys remember Joseph Jordan? He wrote a book,
26:23
Speaker 1: it's got to be 16, 17 years ago, but it
26:25
Speaker 1: was called Unholy Communion. And very quickly, they have a
26:29
Speaker 1: process before they just say, oh, he's being visited by
26:32
Speaker 1: alien greys. They will often take somebody that has been
26:36
Speaker 1: reciting these night terrors or they're taking me up into
26:39
Speaker 1: UFO ships. These are people that claim to be experiencers.
26:43
Speaker 1: And before they just accept what they're hearing, they first
26:46
Speaker 1: have this very pragmatic system of, of determining whether this
26:50
Speaker 1: person actually has a mental health imbalance and needs a
26:54
Speaker 1: different kind of physician or doctor, or if this is
26:58
Speaker 1: truly demonic and spiritual. And they have like a nearly
27:01
Speaker 1: 100% rate. It was Joseph Jordan and David Ruffino. And Joseph,
27:06
Speaker 1: he's still around. He's still doing deliverance ministries. You can
27:08
Speaker 1: look him up online, but they have a very systematic
27:11
Speaker 1: way to determine first if this person is truly experiencing
27:15
Speaker 1: the demonic or whether this is some other imbalance. Does
27:17
Speaker 1: that make sense? So it goes along with what you're saying.
27:19
Speaker 1: And I'm assuming you have your own systems of determining
27:22
Speaker 1: first where this needle is swinging between the spirit realm,
27:26
Speaker 1: maybe the psychological, maybe the nutritional, and maybe somewhere that,
27:30
Speaker 1: you know, organizes all three of them. Before we go, Dr. Natalie,
27:34
Speaker 1: tell people if they're out there watching the show and
27:36
Speaker 1: they're like, man, you guys are reading my mail from
27:39
Speaker 1: the anxiety to the, or my son or daughter, they,
27:42
Speaker 1: they do this thing where they have nightmares, anything like that.
27:45
Speaker 1: Where can people learn more about you, the ministry work
27:48
Speaker 1: that you're doing, your website?
27:49
Speaker 2: Sure. So if you go to mentalwarriorconsulting.com, that's my website
27:53
Speaker 2: and really ways to contact me, connect with me there.
27:56
Speaker 2: There's lots of resources. If you have questions, articles and
27:59
Speaker 2: podcast interviews, different ways to interact.
28:02
Speaker 1: How many of you want to see Dr. Natalie back
28:04
Speaker 1: right here again next week? I hope that you learned
28:12
Speaker 1: something today. And maybe for some of you, this is
28:13
Speaker 1: the very beginning of how God is going to bring
28:16
Speaker 1: you out of whatever it is that you're struggling with.
28:18
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Artishorn. Dr. Natalie will be back next week.
28:22
Speaker 1: It's not one you're going to want to miss. Keep
28:23
Speaker 1: your eyes on the prize, which is Jesus Christ. We'll
28:27
Speaker 1: be back. Thank you.