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Chris Godwin on the Keys to Perseverance · Sports In America with David Greene

• [CHEERING] [MUSIC] BROADCASTER: Twenty-eight degree day, wind at 9 miles per hour. CHRIS GODWIN, TAMPA BAY BUCANEERS WIDE RECEIVER: When I was a kid, I just kind of like always envisioned like conference championship games as being like, just freezing cold temperatures, like might get some snow, stuff like that. And like the week leading up, I'm like, so obviously it was Green Bay, so it's gonna be cold. And I wasn't sure how cold, but then it never, like, you know, maybe thirties, we might get some snow, and I'm like, "Aw, man, that'll be dope if we get a snow game," you know? DAVID GREENE, HOST: That's just part of the dream. CG: That's just part of the dream. DG: You don't dream about like a, a playoff game, like in Kansas City, you dream about a like Lambeau. CG: Yes. DG: It’s January of 2021, and wide receiver Chris Godwin just got to Lambeau Field, the home stadium of the Green Bay Packers. The cold is blistering, and that's exactly what Chris was hoping for. CG: So we get there and it's like, it was snowing the night before and like, it didn't end up like snowing all throughout the game, but it was snowing through pregame. So when I walk out of the tunnel to do my normal pre-game warmup, it's like the tunnel at Lambeau is very small. So like as a player, you walk through it, and the first thing you see is like the Lambeau Field sign. And like, I got chills obviously, cause it was cold, but got a different kind of chills. DG: Different kind of chill? CG: Different kind of chills because it was exactly how I had hoped it would be, you know, just like iconic moment, like iconic game, you know? And this is to go to the Super Bowl. I was like, "Man, this is unreal." Like, talk about a dope life. DG: This is the NFC Championship game, so the stakes are high. The next few hours of football are gonna decide who goes to the Super Bowl that year. It is Chris and the rest of his team, the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, against the Packers, who are enjoying home-field advantage. BROADCASTER: It just doesn't get any better than what we're about to see with Aaron Rodgers taking on Tom Brady. We're about to find out who will represent the NFC in Super Bowl LV. CG: They gave them like these little, like, they weren't like cardboard, but like there's like little signs like "Go Packers" or whatever, but like they were slamming them on the bleachers and the bleachers are all metal and they was just echoing. [SLAMMING ON BLEACHERS] DG: This game has been a nail-biter, and here we are. A minute left, the Bucs are up by 5\. They're trying to seal the game and go into victory formation. It's their third down. If they don't get it, they’ll likely have to punt and give the ball back to the Packers with a chance to win. The Buccaneers want to end it here and go to the Super Bowl. So who's gonna be the hero? BROADCASTER: To be 45 seconds, 48 seconds away from going to the Super Bowl, you just couldn't have written this story. DG: Take me to that last drive. It's third down. There are 43 seconds left. I'd love you to help me live with you through each second leading up to that… CG: Yeah. DG: …play like getting into the huddle. Take me to the field, CG: Man. The whole game was like back and forth, right? Like it kind of felt weird. Like we were in control early, and you know, we had some really big plays by some guys, like Scotty scored right before the half that put us up pretty good. So it's back and forth, and then they came back and like they came roaring back, got a couple interceptions, and they really made it tough on us. So coming down to the last possession, it's like, we know it's like a matter, like, they're playing us and the time, you know, so we really just have to execute a handful of plays in order to make it impossible for them to come back. And... DG: You have a five-point lead. So, I mean, you give the ball back to the Packers. CG: Exactly. DG: They're still in it. CG: Yes, exactly. We still had to get another first down to seal it, and so I think it was a timeout right before that play, and the whole time I'm just like, man, like we just need a couple yards. Like we need four or five yards or what, like we just need a couple yards, like I'm talking to the guys. I'm like, "Yo, whatever we gotta do, like we just gotta do it. like, this is it." Like, I'm talking to Mike, I'm like, "Man," like... DG: Evans? CG: Yeah, Mike Evans. I'm like, "Man, this is it." And then Byron, like. I see all the running backs come out, like leave the game like leave the huddle. I'm like, what's going on here? Like, you know what I mean? Like we can't, if we have to run the ball, why is there no running backs in the game? DG: You knew that you wanted to burn clock. CG: Yes. DG: So you're thinking this has to be a run play? CG: Yes. DG: The running backs leave the field. CG: Yeah, we call personnel where it's five wide receivers in. DG: There was a reason all those running backs were leaving the field. It is because Bucs quarterback Tom Brady had decided this next play would hinge on Chris instead. And this is all unfolding, and you're, is it beginning to sink in that this might involve you? (Laughs) CG: Yeah, and then the play call comes in, and I was like, no way, like, it was like, kinda like I was a kid again, cause I had like this kind of chill go down like my spine. Like, it was kind of surreal to be in that moment of like, this the last play for us, and we get this, we're going to the Super Bowl. And to me it's like, if you're like, as a kid dreaming about playing in the NFL, why would you wanna be in any other position? And so the play gets called. DG: And does Brady bring the call to the huddle? CG: Yeah, so like, I mean, he, like, he brought in, he was like, like calls the play. He's like “CG, like, will you get the first down? We need five yards, we need the first down, say, and bounce.” DG: He said that to you? CG: Yeah. I'm like, "Say less. I got you." [MUSIC] CG: That's what we prepare for. We come here to, you go to win. You wanna win championships. You wanna be in big moments. I felt like this was my opportunity to really help the team. DG: So talk me through the play itself. CG: As soon as I go on motion, like, like no joke, everything it goes slow motion. And so now it's like, I'm watching what's happening as I'm doing it. Like, it's like an out-of-body experience. And I'm running in motion, ball snap. BROADCASTER: Toss to Godwin! CG: And I'm just like, all you gotta do is secure the ball. is catch it and go make the play, catch the ball, go, and let everything slow motion. Watch my guys, get their block, get the two-pin blocks we need, all its alignment pulls around, and I just kind of see the lane open up, and it was kind of like, like I said, it's like, I'm watching, I'm watching, and I'm doing it. So like, you know, like on TV when like, there's the first down marker, the yellow line, but it's not actually on the field? DG: Mm-hmm. CG: I was seeing the yellow line, like on the field, like it's like, I knew where I needed to get to without looking for the sticks DG: You like had painted your own yellow line in your head? CG: Yeah, it was there, like I said, it's like, I'm watching it and doing it, DG: That's amazing. CG: It was the most surreal feeling. And so go around, kind of find my way through the blocks, and then get the first down, like I know I'm past it and I just slide. [SLIDING SOUND EFFECT] CG: And as soon as I slide everything speeds back up again. BROADCASTER: He's got the first down, and this game's over. [CHEERING] CG: And I turn around, like, Jensen's like picking me up. He's like "Let's go!" like he's hype. DG: Your teammate Ryan Jensen? CG: Yeah, Ryan. DG: He came up. I watched on TV. CG: Yep DG: He was the first one to get to you. CG: Yep. And I'm just like, man, this is unbelievable. And the first thing I think of is “Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. We're going to the Super Bowl!” [CHEERING] BROADCASTER: The Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Tom Brady are going to Super Bowl LV! [THEME MUSIC] DG: From WHYY and PRX, this is Sports in America. I’m David Greene. Today, we're sitting down with star wide receiver Chris Godwin to unpack his career on and off the field. The Penn State grad went to the Buccaneers as a third-round draft pick, and he quickly made a name for himself. It’s not just that NFC Championship play. He’s the #2 receiver in franchise history for receptions and receiving yards. Tom Brady, Chris, and the Bucs went on to win the Super Bowl that year. But right at the top of his game, Chris has suffered numerous serious injuries that could have ended his career — taking him off the field for weeks, months, even entire seasons at a time. It happened right after that Super Bowl in the 2021 season, and then again in 2024. CG: It was weird, man. It was like, it's like I died or something. (Laughs) That's the worst. especially when you go from like, especially mid-season or like from the point that I was at. Cause I went from functioning at an elite level to nothing. So, like you need help using a bathroom type of deal. DG: We’re also gonna hear from an expert about how an athlete — a person known for their strength and perseverance — can even begin to heal mentally from a serious injury. ALLISON NEWLIN, CLINICAL COUNSELOR: And when you're injured, all of a sudden it's like, I'm not me anymore. DG: But first, back to that cold, cold night at Lambeau Field, after Chris Godwin had just sealed the Bucs’ victory and punched their ticket to the Super Bowl. That like slow-motion watching the play, like as a spectator instead of actually being in it. Had you ever had that happen before? Or was this a first? CG: It was a very first for me. I never, it was, like I said, it was an out about experience and I had never experienced, like, I've never experienced anything like that. DG: Why do you think it happened on that play? CG: That's a great question. I feel like just the culmination of like me having dreamed about moments like that, my entire life, paired with being in a similar situation in high school, like being familiar with end rounds or, you know, run plays, and just how special the moment felt to me. Like I said, everything from like setting the stage of walking into Lambeau to there, to me, it was, it was all iconic. You know, I was, when I was a kid, like those, those were the moments I had dreamed about. And so to be in it, it was crazy to just, like I said, to watch it and to be in it and to do it, it was kind of like a, it was like poetry. DG: Do you remember your first, your first interaction with your parents after winning that NFC title game at Lambeau? CG: There was a lot of yelling. (Laughs) DG: On the phone? CG: Yeah, on the phone. Yeah, it was FaceTime, and it was so loud in the locker room, and it was like, so I had to throw like one AirPod in, and I'm like listening to them, and we're all talking, and we're just like screaming, like, cause we just won the NFC championship. We're going to the Super Bowl. Like they’re gassed up, like I got a group chat with my wife and my brother-in-law and my best friend from back home, and we all were doing the same thing, yelling, screaming, just, it's unreal. It's the wildest thing, man. DG: Chris was on a high, and in a few weeks, he would make the first catch in that 2021 Super Bowl. He and the Buccaneers went on to win the big game that year, dominating the Kansas City Chiefs 31 to 9. CG: I put so much into it. Like this is all I've ever done. This is all I've ever wanted to do. This is always plan A, and like I said, I don't quit. I don't, like I'm here to win. I'm here to be the best that I can be. And that was no different. DG: To really understand Chris Godwin, you can’t just talk to him about victories. The losses — the moments that hurt — are just as important to who Chris is. And he holds them close to this day. [MUSIC] DG: One of his most crushing losses came early in his career, in 2017, during his last season at Penn State. The Nittany Lions made it to the Rose Bowl and were facing USC. Chris played insanely well: He recorded a career-high 187 yards on nine catches, and he scored two touchdowns. CG: It was insane. They started off hot. They were winning. We came storming back, and it felt like we were gonna run away with it. DG: Penn State had the lead for a lot of that game. But it didn’t last. CG: And then, as it does in football or in sports in general, the momentum shifts, something happens, momentum shifts, and it's hard to turn it around. And they had some really talented guys that they ended up playing better than us when it counted. DG: In the fourth quarter, USC and Penn State were tied with just a minute and a half left. USC ended up winning on a late field goal. ANNOUNCER: Let’s go, USC wins it! [CHEERING] DG: Chris knew it would be his last time playing college football; that loss brought him to tears. What were you feeling at the end of that? [CG: I think it was a mixture of things. This frustration from losing, just, you know, like it's the end of the year, but it's also, it's a big game. I've always like watching the Rose Bowl. I've always wanted to play in a Rose Bowl. That's such an iconic game to me. And so similarly to like playing, like in Lambeau for the NFC championship game, I always saw myself as willing to do that. So I got the opportunity to, and I played really good, but it wasn't enough. And, so it was frustrating losing in that game. DG: In the middle of Chris’ devastation over losing that Rose Bowl, someone snapped a picture of him sitting on the sideline. [MUSIC] CG: I saw that picture and I saved it because it's symbolic to me of like how much I care about the game, but I was also like, "One day I'm gonna be in a game as big as this, and we're gonna win." DG: To this day, Chris uses that photo of himself — heartbroken after a devastating loss — as his motivation. More on that, coming up next on Sports in America. [MIDROLL BREAK] DG: Welcome back to Sports in America. I’m David Greene. We left off in 2017, when pro wide receiver Chris Godwin was in his last year at Penn State, and his team had lost the Rose Bowl. Chris made a point never to forget that moment. You saved a picture of you crying? CG: Yeah. DG: Where is that picture? CG: It's on my phone, actually. DG: Really? CG: Yeah. DG: Can I see it? I mean... CG: Yeah, let me see if I can pull this out pretty quickly, but it's, yeah, man, it's crazy like how that stuff happens. There you go. DG: Oh, wow. It's in black and white and everything. CG: Yeah. I like that. It's in black and white. DG That's you under the, is that you under the towel? CG: Yeah, under the towel, yeah. DG: Oh my God. You covered yourself in a towel? CG: Yeah, let it go, DG: Why black and white? You want it to feel like old-timey? CG: Yeah. I feel like, when it's in black and white, you're less worried about the distracting colors going on, cause it can be like it's blue and white, it's red and gold, or red and yellow. It's a bunch of stuff going on, but it strips the picture of the distractions. And you focus on the emphasis of the photo, which right there is, you know, like I'm the one that's in focus and the moment, like, you don't know what happened, but it looks like it's… DG: Not good. CG: Something somber. DG: You can tell that you are devastated. [MUSIC] CG: Yeah, exactly. And I like that, the raw emotion of that, because that picture's powerful to me, and like, you know, with pictures, it means something different to everyone. But to me, it has a very specific meaning. And no matter when I look at that, it's going to like evoke the same emotions. DG: And I always have wondered, like if you're an athlete who just like always wins on the big stage, like if you had won the state championship, if you had won in the Rose Bowl, your last year at Penn State, would that somehow make a Super Bowl championship different? Like tie that devastation in that photo, to the feeling when you win a Super Bowl with the Bucs and Brady, CG: I mean, to me, it's very poetic. It's how, it's what makes the game like football, specifically, but also just sports in general, so beautiful. You can have times where you struggle and where you don't necessarily get the outcome that you want. And then you put the work in, and like, it might not happen the next time or the next time or the next time. But if you put in enough work, if you respect the game, odds are at some point it's gonna turn for you. And like, you know, like in high school we had, I went to four state championships, lost the first one, and the last one. DG: You won two before your senior year? CG: Yeah. DG: So you felt it, you felt the, CG: I felt that. DG: The high. CG: You know, but that gets highs and lows, and to me, it's like, you just keep working, like when you lose, that's motivation to win, and then when you win, it's like, alright, well, like now you gotta go back out and prove it again next year. DG: From the Rose Bowl to the Super Bowl, there is something that has been more disruptive to Chris’ career than any of his losses on the field. That would be the injuries that have taken him out of the game for weeks, months, or even seasons at a time. When I talked to Chris in 2022, he had just sustained one of his most serious injuries — in the season right after he won the Super Bowl. Speaking of lows, last season, Week 15 against the Saints. You tear your ACL, do you remember the play? CG: Ironically enough, I was mic'd up that game, like for the team DG: So we can all hear the play? CG: Yeah. I actually had our video guy just like cut up like the 10 minutes, like from in the huddle right before the play to like the next 10 minutes for me. just like.. DG: What do we hear? [CHRIS GODWIN TALKING INDISTINCTLY] CG: A little bit of chatter before the play, just like with my guys talking about the play. CHRIS GODWIN MICCED UP: Let's go, baby! It's gonna be a great night, fellas. CG: You hear the catch. And then like, as soon as I catch, just like catch, hit and then you just hear me like, kinda like front grunting. [CHRIS GODWIN GRUNTING] CG: Something's off. Like I can tell for sure, like off the impact, I was just like, “Oh, like, man, something's wrong.” On the field exam, they thought they knew it was an MCL. It's like grade three. They're like, yeah, the things there's no endpoint it's gone, and so you hear me just talking to the trainers about what that means. I'm like, like, "So what's up, like when do I go back in," you know. (Laughs) DG: You're ready to get back on the field? CG: Yeah. So like the first thing was for me was like, I'm definitely gonna walk off the field. Like, I'm fine for that. Which I think was cool, was a good sign for myself, more so like, something's hurting, but you're fine. Like, we'll figure it out like we always do. And then for the team, and then just for my family, like my loved ones that care about me that see me down, like my wife is at the game and I get hurt and she panics. And just goes sprinting down, like trying to find how to get onto the field. So for me to get up, it's like signaling to all my people that, like, even though I might be down like, it's not catastrophic. DG: An MCL tear, by the way, is this injury where a ligament on the inside of your knee joint gets torn. It’s one of the most common knee injuries, and you don’t always need surgery to fix it. It’s unlike an ACL tear, which is a more serious ligament tear in the center of your knee. That usually does require surgery. The recovery process is really long, and if you don’t give it the time to fully heal, you might re-injure it. So you walk off the field. Did you find Mariah? Like on the sideline? Had she gotten there? CG: She was like, when I, like, she was like trying to like get under the stadium, like breaking through security guards. Like, all like grafted, like, "Ma'am you can't go there." She's not hearing none of that. Like, she's like singularly focused on trying to get to me. DG: That's amazing. CG: She actually had, she had our trainer's number. So like, when I went to the back, she was able to like text him, try to figure out like an update said I was good. But yeah, so I get up, walk off, get to the sideline. We go in the tent, they check it again. They're like, yeah, like MCL is definitely gone. Everything else felt stable. Based on the exam. DG: And if it was just MCL, I mean, could you keep playing, could you? CG: So, we taped it up. I was like, “What are the options here?” And he was like, “We have to, like, you have to have surgery at some point, possibly,” you know. DG: But it was just MCL, like you could get back out there. CG: Yeah. I was like, "Well, like what's worst-case scenario for this situation?" He's like, "I don't know, maybe like four to six weeks thinking playoffs." I was like, but like, "Can I go back in now?" Cause obviously it's the Saints. It's big divisional game. We don't know how the rest of the season's gonna go. So I'm just trying to get back out there, and he was like, "We can tape you up, see how that feels, and then you can try it out." So that’s what we do, tape it up and then go run around on the sideline, just seeing how it feels. I'm like "Feels off for sure. But I feel like I can go." But I was just like, I couldn't really like cut how I needed to off that leg. And so I'm like, man... DG: Something is not right. CG: Yeah. But I'm like, if this is the Super Bowl or a playoff game. I was a hundred percent gonna go back in because to me, so like when you ask the question, like, "What's the worst case scenario here?" Like if I go back out, that's what I ask. And they're like, "Well, if you go back out, put yourself at a serious risk of further injury, could tear your ACL or, you know, dislocate your kneecap." And so I'm like, it didn't necessarily deter me. (Laughs) DG: I hear that. And I'm like, "OK. Cool. Yep. Not going out there." And you're like, "Yeah. Okay. I'm going back out there!" CG: So, yeah, in my head, I'm trying to go through the scenarios, like, what are the odds of like this happening again? And like, to me, what it came down to was like, if I caught like, I could protect myself on my left side, like I can cut off my left foot. I can tell them I can only run this, like these types of routes. But if I go to catch the ball and someone's coming, and. I like, my next step is my right one. I can't stop myself. So I was like, all right. man. Like, it's like, I'm pretty much, like, I think I'm done for the day. DG: When Chris went to the doctor, the news was worse than he thought. [MUSIC] CG: After that, we get an MRI the next day, and they're like, you know, I'm expecting like, "Yeah, like it's grade three MCL, like how long?" And he was like, "Yeah, it's not good. It's MCL and ACL," I'm just like, [EXPLETIVE]. DG: I mean, ACL can be like a death sentence for athletes. I mean, it can mean that you never truly recover. Like, is that, are you, was that on your mind at all? CG: No, it was never, if I. would be able to come back. It was just like, it was more of a gutshot because I had put so much work in, man. Like I played through a bunch of like minor injuries, like, most guys do, like, nobody's really healthy by the time you get to week 10, week 11\. But I put so much work in, and I care about what I do. We're just about, we're just getting to the fun stuff. DG: Hmm. The playoffs? CG: Yeah. Like it's December football. That's when you really like things really start shaping for the playoffs. And I just, man, I was hot too. I was coming like, I think I had 15 catches versus Atlanta two weeks prior. Then I had 10 catches versus Buffalo the week before I had... DG: You were on fire. CG: I had six catches at that point in the game before halftime. DG: I remember this because after your season was over, you would hear everyone just talk about, "Well, the Bucs have to move on without Chris Godwin." Like, it's almost like, did you feel like you were hearing them talk about a ghost or something? CG: Yeah, it was strange. It was weird, man. It was like, it's like I died or something. (Laughs) But it was like, it was strange because like I said, I was hot, and I felt like I could do so much more. Like, I felt like 31 catches and two and a half games, I feel like I could do more. DG: Does it feel like being like erased from a narrative or something? I mean, just… CG: Oh, that's a great question. Not necessarily. It's a weird feeling. It's kind of, so the whole time I was watching the playoffs, from afar, it felt like just a minor injury. Like whenever I watch on TV, like pre-surgery, but then after my surgery, I was able to make it back for the home playoff games and… DG: On the field, from the sideline? CG: Yeah. Well, I was in the booth, but I was in a locker room. Pre-game, DG: Mm-hmm. CG: It was like talking to the guys that felt good, lifting my spirits. And then watching from that high one, seeing like, from that like perspective was very strange, but also just like understanding that like, I could be there right now. DG: You almost could see yourself on the field where you're supposed to be. CG: Yeah, like watching myself, like going through the same routes, making the same plays. DG: So what does it feel like to go from winning the Super Bowl to watching your team play without you? A physical injury, I mean, that's what took Chris Godwin off the field in 2021, at the height of his career. But what struck me about his story is how mentally challenging it has to be to go from being an elite athlete — winning pretty much the biggest game in all of sports, the Super Bowl — to being injured, and just standing there, watching your team from the sidelines. So I called up someone who could tell me more about how a physical injury can affect an athlete’s mental health as well. AN: I've been with Wright State now in that role going into my 11th year with them. I introduce myself to the student athletes as their mental health and performance enhancement counselor. So it kind of encompasses the realm of mental health, but also, you know, optimal performance, the thin line between the two. DG: That's Allison Newlin, she's a therapist in Dayton, Ohio. And she works with a local college, Wright State University, to provide counseling and mental health services to student athletes. Basically, Allison helps them feel better off the field so they can perform better on it. How would you say sports is different from other walks of life when it comes to your kind of work and the issues that you face? AN: I'm tempted to go like the opposite way immediately and say that sports are just so much like so many other things that I face. And fortunately, the sports piece of it allows me to just kind of almost relate to them in a different way since I've had that experience. DG: One of the things that we're focusing on on the show, and it's one reason we want to reach out to you was injuries. I wonder if that is a place where sports can be different, where you can be an athlete, like, you know, just performing at the most elite level, but there's always the risk of everything being taken away with a serious injury, like at any second, and dealing with that. And I guess I wonder what experience you've had, maybe in your own athletic career or, you know, as you've witnessed people you've been working with? [MUSIC] AN: When you're using the language elite, right, when you're talking about an elite athlete, you know, I think if I could just further define that just broadly, I think for me that would mean, you know, an athlete that's really dedicating a lot of time, who's really committing a lot of their own, you know, process and energy to this. And so when there's an injury and you are now maybe not in competition for a period of time, this is a whole domain that is now not in your life anymore, right? And so the impact that can come from that, from an emotional release standpoint, right? This is where you usually kind of get all your emotions released, and now you are limited in your physical ability and aren't able to do that to identity, to social wellness, structure, routine. I mean, there's just the layers of how that impacts an athlete is profound. DG: And what is your advice to athletes when they go through that, when suddenly the central part of their lives is taken away from them, how to process it and how to keep going on? AN: Right off the jump, the first advice I try to give is to try to validate your experience and where it's at, you know, to try to really accept the feelings and the emotions that are coming from it. But I think it's really important that the people around the athlete have an understanding that this is, that an injury is a, I mean, studies show that there's a correlation between decreased mental health, negative impact on mental health, and injuries, which sounds like common sense, right? When we get injured, our mental health gets impacted. Of course it does. But I think we need to really normalize that, right? That these athletes are going to go through the stages of grief. Whether they get to acceptance quicker than others, they need to be able to expect denial, bargaining, sadness, anger, acceptance, and it helps to have an understanding of that. They don't go in order. They'll come and hit you in the mouth at any point in time. Sadness is the longest stage that you want to be in. That's the healthiest. For a lot of them, I think it's important to know, “Hey, you not feeling like yourself right now, or you feeling sad, is so healthy and so normal.” Because as you can imagine, this isn't a population that like loves to adhere to things that don't feel great, right? They're used to being resilient and pushing through things DG: Not vulnerable, like vulnerability is probably the hardest thing, and sadness is vulnerable, yeah. AN: Exactly, and so here I am telling them, you know, be sad, be vulnerable. Don't try to change that, you know, right now. I try to help them reiterate who they are as human beings. And a lot of times you're gonna see your values shown through your domain, through your sport. And when you're injured, all of a sudden it's like, I'm not me anymore. Well, that's just because you spent, you know, whatever, eight hours a day, 20 hours, that's where you did that. Now we've got to see what does this look like? What does it look like to fulfill and live your values out in other domains and other areas of your lives? And so helping them see that. DG: Why is sadness something you describe as super healthy? AN: All of our emotions are valid. They're gonna be there for a reason. They're wanting to inform us of something. Sadness is gonna show up when we're missing something. And certainly in times of grief, sadness is gonna be present. And so you gotta give it what it wants. You know, you've gotta give the energy, think of emotions as energy, and that sadness is gonna be there. And quite frankly, the bigger the commitment, right, the bigger the dream, maybe the more the sadness, right? And so it's almost the other side of this coin. And so again, I think it's so important that they can validate their experiences coming through because it's almost as though they can understand that if you're having a good cry, that's really, really productive. You're doing the work. DG: It strikes me that the bigger the goal and the ambition, the greater the sadness you're going to be experienced. I mean,, one of the interviews I wanted to talk to you about that we did was, was with Chris Godwin star NFL wide receiver. He suffered a terrible injury after a great Super Bowl run the season before, and you know, he described to us, I think, what you're talking about, his period of grief and facing reality. And I do, I do have to being at the top of the top, like winning a Super Bowl championship and trying to do it again, like the idea of that suddenly being ripped away from him. It's hard to totally imagine that the shock and those stages of emotions you're talking about. AN: Oh yeah, I imagine that's super profound and just trickling in the identity piece of that, you know, and of course, that's I think interchangeable with the experience of grief. But what a profound shakeup that can be for someone's world. I mean, to some degree, depending on the injury, or the way the injury happened, a lot of times I'm seeing like traumatic symptoms, right? I'm seeing trauma-related symptoms as well, right? Where they may be replaying something or the kind of anxiety that might be coming into play, is kind of remnant of a trauma-related fear. DG: So you would use the word trauma when you talk about how these elite athletes are dealing with an injury that takes them out of play. It's that serious? AN: Well, it's that serious in the context of, I think it's important that I come from that lens because, the first, if we were to get literal, right, the first kind of criteria of traumatic disorder would be having a life-threatening event. Now, of course, depending on the nature of the injury, of course, that could qualify. But if you think of, you know, I'm living my life every day, ba-ba-ba-ba-ba, and this is what I do, and this is how I function, and this brings me success, and, you know, I'm managing that, and I've got my goals, and then all of a sudden, whoof, you know, the rug just gets ripped right out from under you. It's almost as though the life that I've had and the life that I know and the life that I'm planning is just gone. It's just gone, right? So is it a life-threatening event? It may not be, of course. However, the system in the brain and the body is really experiencing it symptomatically almost in very similar ways. So I tend to treat it and educate in the same kind of a way. DG: You know, the last thing I wanted to ask you about, I mean, one thing we're really exploring on the show is how athletes' experiences, you know, particularly the elite athletes we follow the time we're fans of, how their experiences can inform, you know, our own lives as fans, as observers of people who are not central in the sports world. [MUSIC] DG: Like what is it about sports and that space that somehow both draws us in and might offer particular life lessons for us that maybe other fields, you know, like business or journalism or mental health, might not like what, is distinctive about sports that makes it such a, I don't know, an environment for, for life lessons to really land? AN: The first thing that comes to mind is just the, you know, almost the immediate community that sports offer, you know, whether you are participating in the sport or you are observing, you know, someone watching the sport. There's just almost this automatic community. You mentioned being a Steelers fan. I was raised a Browns fan, and I had this visceral reaction when you said that of like ugh! DG: I don't like you. AN: You know what I mean? And I don't, I've outgrown that. I’m no longer, I'm not even a Browns fan anymore, and I immediately still, I had this moment of like, ugh, right? It's just funny, right? So, the other side of the coin. But I think that's a big thing. I think that you know, we're mammals. We know that we wanna be with the group. In the context of being a spectator watching any given sporting event, we're experiencing things during that period of time, in a short period of time that we experience in life, right? So we have anxiety, worry, fear, excitement, failure, failure, failure, accomplishment, accomplishment, right? We're having to do that sometimes as a group, right? We're having to sometimes support, you know? So I think that there's a lot of themes that we can just emotionally, you know, really relate to and connect with. DG: So she's talking there about how sports is so much about community, think about being an athlete who suffers a sudden injury and has that sense of community taken away. We'll talk to Chris Godwin about how he processes his injury in 2021 and what his path has been like since then, next on Sports in Ame rica. [MIDROLL BREAK] DG: Welcome back to Sports in America. I’m David Greene, and let’s get right back into our conversation with Tampa Bay Bucs wide receiver Chris Godwin. I watched a video of your high school coach. He was talking about another time you were on the big stage, in the state championship game at Middletown High in Delaware. CG: Yeah. DG: And you guys lost that game and you were, it was clear you had lost, and he said that you gathered the team together during a timeout. Tell me about that. What happened? What were you doing? CG: So for me, it's, like I said, it's always been a team thing. Like I'm no, I'm no bigger than, you know, than you. And you're no bigger than him. Like it's all of us together. We need each other. And I think I've always been a proponent of just fighting to the end, regardless of what the score is saying. I think it's about, it's a mentality. Like it's an approach. It's like, we've come this far, like, why will we quit? Like you never know, like what could happen? Like, I know it seems very improbable, but you just never know. And I think it also, it just sends the right message to your mind, to your body. It's like a never-quit attitude. And I had that even back then. I think that was, I think it's something like how my parents raised me. And so for me, that was all I was trying to impart on them is doesn't matter how it looks like this game isn't over, let's finish this. We put in all this work, why would you come this far just to quit? DG: You brought up your parents and said that that was the way your parents sort of made you. I’d love to just hear you reflect on that. CG: That was what they instilled in me when I was a kid. My dad used to always tell me all the time, you know, you have to do the right thing, even if it's not the most popular thing to do, like you do the right thing. You treat people with respect, and a lot of those lessons still ring, you know, in my head. And so, like, when I think about not giving lup ike in the middle of a game, or like towards the end of a game, it's like, that's all I've ever known. DG: When we talked, Chris was deep in the recovery process to try to get back on the field. How is your spirit? CG: It's going good. DG: Yeah? CG: Yeah, it's a tough, it's a tough recovery process. [MUSIC] DG: Tell me about it. I'd love to, like, I hear so many athletes go through the ACL rehab, but I'd love, like, take me into the rehab process with you. CG: So early on, there's so much that you can't do anything, you know, it's, DG: That must be the worst. CG: That's the worst. especially when you go from like, especially mid-season or like from the point that I was at. Cause I went from functioning at an elite level... DG: Peak to nothing. CG: To nothing. So like you, like, you need help using a bathroom type of deal. It should be tough. From that point, all you're focused on is like the little big milestones. And what I mean by that is like the things that we kind of take for granted now, like walking, being able to ride a bike, jogging, that's like, so those are like the little things in the grand scheme, but they're big milestones for you. So, from the time that I started my rehab, my mentality is the same as it always is: just work. That's all, I really know. DG: What's one milestone you remember? CG: Really, walking was the first one, because it was you, you lose so much function of your leg in such a quick period of time. It was literally like immediately after surgery, you can't contract your quad. DG: Were you like in a wheelchair? I mean... CG: Crutches. The very first night leaving surgery, I was in a wheelchair just off the anesthesia, but after that, just crutches, but it seemed like I was progressing faster from the beginning because, like doing stuff like leg lifts, like straight leg lifts. It's stuff that maybe like day two, day three, but I was doing it immediately post-surgery, and that was like the approach that I took to everything. It was trying to push myself as much as I can, as much as is smart to do, while understanding where I want to be, so walking was big. DG: Do you remember the first, the first walk, like where you were? CG: Uh, yeah, I was leaving rehab. DG: Okay. CG: For, it was like end of like Week 1 when I started to like, put like for weight bearing. And then, I was in Pensacola for two weeks post-op. And then I came back for the playoff games, but by the time I got back for the playoff games, I like, I was walking in, like I walked over, like in and around the stadium, and that was big for me, cause they were saying like, "Yeah, just like kind of take it easy," you know? But to me, I'm like, mm-hmm, nah, like I'm so excited to walk. I'm this is a big step for me. Get to like walk how someone would normally walk. Like now, I like I have a brace on, but I get to walk, I don't have to use these crutches. I don't have to depend on something that was a big step for me. DG: So you gonna play Week 1? CG: I don't think any of us know that yet. DG: Really? Do you, do you get a say, like, do you and Mariah talk about it, and will you, do you get a say if like, they're like, "It's a risk, it could happen. What do you wanna do, Chris?" CG: So I definitely have a say, I think I would imagine that I have the final say. DG: Mm-hmm CG: But to me it just, it's all gonna come down to feel like, cause I understand what I'm capable of doing, on the field, like when healthy, but I also understand like what I'm capable of pushing through. Like I said, most guys aren't healthy after a couple weeks into the season. So, most of my career, you have been playing through something. So I know that I can do that at a high level. It's just a matter of doing it because of what I've just experienced. Doing it the smartest way that I can. DG: Does it matter? I mean, if you started Week 2 or 3, like, does that... CG: I don't think it matters. I think in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter that much. Like I would love to be there for the entire season. But I think what's more important is being there for the second half of the season. being there for what I missed last year. DG: So you're not sitting here pushing, like, get me ready for Week 1, whatever it takes. I want to play Week 1. CG: I push to get back as soon as I can. DG: Mm-hmm CG: While being smart at the same time, cause like there's the competitor in me. Like I want to be there for the whole season. I want to be there with my guys. I want to do the most that I can to put me in the best position to succeed this season. I'm so focused on what I have to do right now that if I spend much energy projecting too far into the future, I'm gonna, there's a chance that I can miss something right now. DG: Mm-hmm, and what's the now, like, what do you have to do today as part of the rehab? Like what's on your.. CG: So a lot of my rehab now looks a lot like a regular off-season training session would be. DG: Okay. CG: Which is a blessing. DG: That's a good sign. CG: Yeah. And so I do a bunch like, like if you came and watched me do rehab, you'd be like, this guy could like, DG: He could play. CG: Yeah. DG: Based on my... CG: Just like what... DG: Not knowing anything kind of... CG: Just like you watch you, be like, "Yeah. That was like a guy that's like, that's almost back." I put in so much, like so much work. And like I said, I've never been through this before, so I don't exactly, I don't specifically know what the feeling's gonna be like when I'm like, "Yo, I'm ready." DG: When Chris and I were chatting during his rehab back in 2022, he was feeling pretty optimistic. DG: But what about the future? CG: What about it? DG: Like, can, you already got the Super Bowl ring? [MUSIC] DG: I mean, how do you find another moment that can carry the same stakes as those two that you're, you're looking back on now in the Super Bowl year? CG: I think that every year brings new challenges, and with that. It's like, I didn't get into this to win, to be a champion one time, you know, it's like every time I go out there every season, even before we won, this is gonna be the year. And I think that that's still gonna be the thing that drives me because this is all I've ever wanted to do. And so I'm not one of those people that I achieve at one time. I'm like, “Whew. All right. I'm good.” Cause if that was the case, then I could have just walked off there, DG: But can it ever feel the same as that first run? CG: I don't know if it'll ever feel the same as the first run, but I also don't know if you would want it to cause like, if you know what you're gonna experience, no matter like how, like how good it felt, if you know exactly what it's gonna feel like, then you're gonna experience it again, but it won't have like the same luster, Like it won't have the same appeal. I think that I, like, I hope it's different in a good way. I think that, like each year brings us new experiences, new areas of growth, and for us, it's like we have to lean into that, lean into wanting to grow, lean into wanting to be better, and try to be as present as you can when you experience those moments. Because, you know, we leave this game with, leave this game with mostly our experiences, and those are the things that we kind of walk away with. DG: Chris, thank you. It was really, it was really great talking to you. CG: Yeah, I really appreciate it. DG: Chris’s battle with injuries has really become the defining challenge of this phase of his career. Since we chatted in 2022, he’s recorded a 1,000-yard season, but he’s also missed a lot of games. He got injured again last year, went through rehab, and returned this season, only to get injured yet again. One thing you can’t question, though, is his toughness. Chris is determined to get back on the field, and his coaches hope he’ll play again in just a few weeks. We’ll just have to wait and see what Chris Godwin can make of this season. [MUSIC] DG: Next time on Sports in America in America, we’re gonna talk to podcaster, host, and one-of-a-kind media personality Pablo Torre. PABLO TORRE, PODCAST HOST: Do you think the greatest football coach of all time is deserving of a serious examination that will also make you uncomfortable when you see his man boobs? DG: We’ll see the world through his unique lens, we'll learn how he uses the absurd to speak truth to power, and hear why he thinks sports are more vital than ever to break through the noise in our divided country. PT: It's exactly what I think I am going for here, and really, it's to melt the cheese on your broccoli. I'm still gonna do the substance. DG: That’s next time on Sports in America. This is Sports in America. I’m your host, David Greene. Our executive producers are Joan Isabella and Tom Grahsler. Our senior producer is Michael Olcott. Our producer is Michaela Winberg, and our associate producer is Bibiana Correa. Our engineer is Mike Villers. Our tile artwork was created by Bea Walling. Sports in America is a production of WHYY in Philadelphia, and is distributed by PRX. Some of our interviews were originally created by Religion of Sports, with special thanks to Adam Schlossman. You can find Sports in America on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, the iHeart Radio app — you know, wherever you get your podcasts.