Latest / Silver FM 100.6 / You can have a good divorce

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You can have a good divorce · Silver FM 100.6

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Speaker 2: It's interesting when I use the phrase first my first husband,
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Speaker 2: my dear first husband, people assume he's dead.
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Speaker 3: Mm hmm.
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Speaker 2: He's not dead, but if he were, we would speak
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Speaker 2: about him in a way that had so much kindness
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Speaker 2: and compassion and regard and respect. He isn't someone I
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Speaker 2: want to x off this planet or out of our family.
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Speaker 2: He is a wonderful influence and support to our children,
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Speaker 2: and I would never wish that he were gone.
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Speaker 4: You're listening to Life Kit.
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Speaker 3: I'm Mariel Sagara, And that was Karen mcnenney, certified divorce
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Speaker 3: coach and certified co parenting Specialist, talking about why she
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Speaker 3: doesn't call her.
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Speaker 4: Former husband her ex.
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Speaker 3: Karen wrote a book called The Good Divorce, How to
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Speaker 3: end your marriage without ending your family.
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Speaker 2: The best time to talk about divorce is before you
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Speaker 2: need to talk about divorce.
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Speaker 3: But when you go into a marriage or you're engaged,
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Speaker 3: it's hard to talk about divorce because you're soon to
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Speaker 3: be spouse as like, what are you planning to divorce me?
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Speaker 3: Like you're already thinking about this right?
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Speaker 5: It has this big negative connotation.
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Speaker 2: And my metaphor for that is every time we fly,
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Speaker 2: they say, take out the safety card in the back
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Speaker 2: seat pocket and we're going to review together what to
1:38
Speaker 2: do should there be turbulence, if this plane is going down,
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Speaker 2: and we don't sit there and think, why is this
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Speaker 2: airline so pessimistic? Why are they planning for us to crash?
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Speaker 2: Why do they do it every time? We know the drill,
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Speaker 2: But nope, we want you to be prepared, want to expect.
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Speaker 2: So I feel like the book is the safety card
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Speaker 2: for marriage.
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Speaker 3: When people get married, they tend to think of it
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Speaker 3: as a forever commitment, but of course divorce happens now.
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Speaker 3: Karen says the paradigm of a good divorce will not
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Speaker 3: work for everyone, and.
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Speaker 2: I want to be really clear and compassionate about those
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Speaker 2: who find themselves in marriages where there's active addiction or abuse,
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Speaker 2: or domestic violence or corersion or unmanaged mental health issues.
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Speaker 2: There are times where you know, skipping off into the
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Speaker 2: sunset and a good divorce, amicable collaborative process is not
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Speaker 2: possible and maybe not even appropriate. But I think there
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Speaker 2: are many more of us that just need to get
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Speaker 2: unmarried and we don't have all of that other trauma.
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Speaker 2: Who if we knew that there was a different exit strategy,
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Speaker 2: we would take it.
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Speaker 3: On this episode of Life Kit, what it means to
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Speaker 3: have a good divorce, you actually say divorce is a
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Speaker 3: tool and not a weapon. Yeah, how did you come
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Speaker 3: to that realization?
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Speaker 2: As I was facing down my own divorce, which has
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Speaker 2: now been about fifteen years ago, I was so afraid
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Speaker 2: of what was on offer. Oh, I'm set for a
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Speaker 2: future of destruction and despair and high debt and a
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Speaker 2: lifetime of resentment. I'm like, I cannot become enemies with
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Speaker 2: the father of our children. So we had to really
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Speaker 2: change the framework and the thinking. And I thought two
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Speaker 2: weaponiys is so destructive. But if we looked at divorce
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Speaker 2: as a tool, we're going to renovate and transform this family,
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Speaker 2: We're not going to destroy it. That's a very different
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Speaker 2: paradigm to start from. And if you don't have children,
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Speaker 2: I don't see any reason why you cannot take the
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Speaker 2: same that is less destructive. You know, those who don't share.
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Speaker 2: Children get a little more of a clean break. They
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Speaker 2: get to walk away and not necessarily stay connected. But
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Speaker 2: maybe you own a business together, maybe you became best
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Speaker 2: friends with your brother in law. So lots of ways
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Speaker 2: to dissolve without destruction.
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Speaker 3: And it sounds like there are ways forward where you
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Speaker 3: could end up still being friends, or you could just
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Speaker 3: be you know, cordial to each other.
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Speaker 4: We're co parents.
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Speaker 3: It depends on the relationship itself and what you started with.
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Speaker 2: Oh, I think you're exactly right, Maryel and I like
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Speaker 2: to remind people you don't have to be friends, but
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Speaker 2: can you be friendly?
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Speaker 5: And it's not only.
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Speaker 2: The relationship that we had when we were courting each other,
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Speaker 2: falling in love, getting married, having our children, but it
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Speaker 2: really is identifying early enough that the marriage is starting
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Speaker 2: to deteriorate.
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Speaker 5: A lot of us wait.
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Speaker 2: Too long until the core relationship has so much damage
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Speaker 2: that's been done to it. I think in part because
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Speaker 2: we don't have much social permission to change our marital status.
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Speaker 2: We're all about change in this culture. Change where you live,
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Speaker 2: change your job, change your major, change your hairdoo, change, change, change,
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Speaker 2: but don't change your marital status. And as a result
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Speaker 2: of that not only do we stay too long, but
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Speaker 2: during that extended stay of resistance to make an elegant exit,
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Speaker 2: we start building a case against our current spouse because
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Speaker 2: we feel we have to justify why we're walking out
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Speaker 2: the door.
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Speaker 3: Take away one think of divorce as a tool, not
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Speaker 3: a weapon. A tool to change your life, to be happier,
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Speaker 3: to develop a better co parenting relationship, to get from
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Speaker 3: a dynamic that's not working and is dragging you and
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Speaker 3: your spouse down.
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Speaker 4: And if divorce is a tool, it's.
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Speaker 3: A good idea to pull it out of the box
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Speaker 3: sooner rather than later, to start the process before you
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Speaker 3: and your spouse hate each other. Of course, there are
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Speaker 3: instances where an amicable, collaborative divorce process is not possible
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Speaker 3: or appropriate, but a lot of couples could benefit from
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Speaker 3: a good divorce.
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Speaker 2: And to be clear, good divorce doesn't mean easy. This
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Speaker 2: stuff is not easy. It's hard, it's painful, there's grief,
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Speaker 2: it's very challenging, even under the best of conditions. But
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Speaker 2: after the paperwork is done, after the ink has dried,
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Speaker 2: the assets have been divided, can you and your co
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Speaker 2: parents sit on the same side of the bleachers during
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Speaker 2: the basketball game? Can you see yourself still as a
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Speaker 2: partnership and an ability to have thoughtful conversations about your
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Speaker 2: kids and what they're going through.
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Speaker 5: What's so they need.
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Speaker 2: So the good divorce is protecting the future of the
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Speaker 2: family while we dissolve the marriage.
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Speaker 4: And what about if you don't have kids.
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Speaker 2: For those that don't have kids, you're protecting your health,
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Speaker 2: your mental health, your physical health. What we know is
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Speaker 2: that if we are doubling down with resentment and bitterness,
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Speaker 2: all of that gets stored in the body and shows
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Speaker 2: up in different ways. You deserve a pathway that's less destructive.
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Speaker 3: After the break. We talk about the tenets of a
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Speaker 3: good divorce.
7:47
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Speaker 3: the link in the description for this episode. When you
9:28
Speaker 3: got divorced, you had a therapist give you and your
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Speaker 3: former husband a sort of playbook with tenants, and one
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Speaker 3: of them was do no more harm.
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Speaker 2: It was a really powerful reminder when she used those words,
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Speaker 2: do no more harm. There's already been enough harm done,
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Speaker 2: and that was so true. So now we can stop it.
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Speaker 2: We're no longer working on the marriage. You get to
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Speaker 2: move on. And that's actually a very liberating perspective.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it can be a really we don't have to
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Speaker 3: have these fights anymore.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have to have those fights anymore. We
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Speaker 2: don't have to keep contorting ourselves. We don't have to
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Speaker 2: keep this household that is maybe building in conflict.
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Speaker 5: It's a complex emotional journey.
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Speaker 2: Because we do feel relief of walking away from some
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Speaker 2: of those things and maybe even specifically our spouse and
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Speaker 2: the challenges. But with it there is extraordinary grief that
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Speaker 2: comes with divorce that I think is often underestimated and undersupported.
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Speaker 2: If my spouse had died, people would have been checking
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Speaker 2: in with me regularly. I never would have spent a
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Speaker 2: holiday alone in that first year. There probably would have
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Speaker 2: been a meal train. But he didn't die, But my
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Speaker 2: marriage died, my family structure died, my identity as a
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Speaker 2: wife and partner died. So much grief through these transformations.
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Speaker 2: So supporting friends and all those ways that you would
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Speaker 2: as if there had been an actual death is doing
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Speaker 2: a lot for your friends who are going through divorce.
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Speaker 3: So I guess, on the side of the person who's
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Speaker 3: getting divorced, do you think there's an element of letting
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Speaker 3: your community know that you need support because it's not
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Speaker 3: always obvious.
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Speaker 5: It's not obvious, and it's awkward.
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Speaker 2: So one of the tools that I encourage clients to
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Speaker 2: do is to really put a communication strategy together. And
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Speaker 2: it's not just how we tell the kids, but it's
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Speaker 2: also a communication strategy to the grandparents, to the circle
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Speaker 2: of support around the kids, teachers, coaches, mentors, and to
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Speaker 2: our shared community. And under the best conditions, it's really
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Speaker 2: extraordinary when a couple can write that message together, not
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Speaker 2: unlike a marriage announcement, but in this case, it sounds
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Speaker 2: more like we've made a really difficult decision. We wanted
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Speaker 2: to let you know we're not going to court. Don't
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Speaker 2: expect a battle. Please don't ask us why, just ask
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Speaker 2: us how we're doing. We're on the same side of
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Speaker 2: the kids, you don't need to pick sides, and in
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Speaker 2: doing so, we've given everyone the same information as once.
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Speaker 2: It's a unified message that comes from the parent team,
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Speaker 2: and it allows your community to know how best to
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Speaker 2: support you. And it takes all the gossip and wonder
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Speaker 2: about what is going on, and it gives everybody clarity.
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Speaker 4: Take away too, Do no more harm.
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Speaker 3: You and your spouse may have already done emotional harm
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Speaker 3: to each other in this breakup process. Commit to doing
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Speaker 3: no more. You can set that tone by sending a
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Speaker 3: joint message to your community, letting them know that they
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Speaker 3: don't need to pick sides and that you still have.
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Speaker 4: Respect for each other.
12:56
Speaker 3: And speaking of community, let your friends and family know
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Speaker 3: how they can soort you in this moment. They may
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Speaker 3: not immediately know what to do, but if you could
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Speaker 3: use a meal train, or help moving into your new place,
13:07
Speaker 3: or just some company, tell them. Another tenet that that
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Speaker 3: therapist gave you was work towards indifference. What does that mean?
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Speaker 2: I asked myself the same question in the moment, Mary All,
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Speaker 2: I'm like, in difference, does that mean I just don't care?
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Speaker 5: I have no feelings? Like That's impossible. So I had
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Speaker 5: to go back.
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Speaker 2: And really examine what indifference means and what it's come
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Speaker 2: to mean for me. Is I just don't get triggered
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Speaker 2: all those pokey hot spots when he says the thing
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Speaker 2: and does the thing that used to just irritate me
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Speaker 2: or accumulatively over time kind of led to the disillusion
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Speaker 2: of the marriage. It now means that, oh, yep, that's
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Speaker 2: just who he is. It's kind of like the stranger
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Speaker 2: on the street, the person in traffic, the individual who
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Speaker 2: cut in front of you in the grocery line. You're like, ah,
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Speaker 2: I'm not even bothered, I'm indifferent. It allows me to
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Speaker 2: emotionally regulate myself from a wiser, more conscious part of
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Speaker 2: my brain so that I'm not constantly triggered and walking
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Speaker 2: around with all these big feelings in reaction to my
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Speaker 2: former spouse, and that my dear is not a light
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Speaker 2: switch experience that does not happen overnight. That is more
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Speaker 2: like a dimmer switch going up and down and up
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Speaker 2: and down, and the gift of time really helps us
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Speaker 2: to get there.
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Speaker 3: I think that part of this is also about not
14:48
Speaker 3: having the same fight over and over again. Sometimes people
14:50
Speaker 3: get out of a relationship and then they're still having
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Speaker 3: the same fights with that person, whether in their head
14:56
Speaker 3: or in real life. True yeah, and you don't have to.
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Speaker 3: I mean, I understand if you have kids, like some
15:05
Speaker 3: of the same dynamics might start to show up again,
15:07
Speaker 3: but you have dissolved a lot of your tether to
15:14
Speaker 3: this person, probably living in separate places now, so you
15:18
Speaker 3: have more freedom to like let them do how they
15:22
Speaker 3: do and you do how you and just start to accept, Okay,
15:28
Speaker 3: this is how they roll through the world, as long
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Speaker 3: as they're keeping our kids safe and they're not harming
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Speaker 3: them in any way, Like it is what it is.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we forget that our former spouse is
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Speaker 2: the same person as our spouse, as you said, like, eh,
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Speaker 2: that's how they roll, and early on as a parent
15:50
Speaker 2: that now your kids for fifty percent of the time,
15:53
Speaker 2: potentially you don't see them. You don't know what they're
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Speaker 2: having for breakfast, you don't know what they were to
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Speaker 2: school that day. What is that other parent doing or
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Speaker 2: choosing that. I can remember being with a friend and
16:02
Speaker 2: just being all torn up about what was or wasn't
16:06
Speaker 2: happening in that other home, which is a really common
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Speaker 2: effect that can happen post divorce, And my friend turned
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Speaker 2: to me and said, are your kids in mortal danger?
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Speaker 5: Of course they're not.
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Speaker 2: She's like, okay, then if they're having fruit loops and
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Speaker 2: wearing two different shoes, you gotta let it go.
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Speaker 3: Karen take away three, work towards indifference. Ideally, that means
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Speaker 3: when your former spouse does something that would have triggered
16:33
Speaker 3: an emotional reaction from you before, it just doesn't anymore.
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Speaker 3: If they show up late, or they're sarcastic, or their
16:40
Speaker 3: house is a mess, none of that is your problem now.
16:43
Speaker 3: If you have kids together, yes, you need to make
16:46
Speaker 3: sure that your children are safe and free from harm.
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Speaker 4: But the other parent.
16:49
Speaker 3: Doesn't have to do everything the way you do it.
16:52
Speaker 3: If you don't have kids together, you don't have to
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Speaker 3: stay in touch with this person at all unless you
16:57
Speaker 3: both want to either way. Just remember you don't have
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Speaker 3: to relive all those old fights you used to have
17:03
Speaker 3: with them in person or in your head. After the break,
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Speaker 3: we talk about splitting kids into two homes and who
17:10
Speaker 3: to see first when you want a good divorce. It's
17:13
Speaker 3: not an attorney, Hi, it's Terry Gross, host of Fresh Air.
17:20
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17:54
Speaker 3: If you do have kids and you're splitting into two homes,
17:58
Speaker 3: what are some ways to make that change easier for them?
18:03
Speaker 2: Starting with the schedule, thinking about we don't want our
18:08
Speaker 2: kids to be ping pongs. What can happen is a
18:11
Speaker 2: family Right's a parenting plan that says kids shall be
18:15
Speaker 2: here and here And I don't even like to call
18:17
Speaker 2: it a custody plan. That just sounds like a possession.
18:20
Speaker 2: Our kids are not possessions. I like to call it
18:22
Speaker 2: a residential schedule. Where are the kids in residents and
18:27
Speaker 2: being able to let that residential schedule grow and change
18:32
Speaker 2: and evolve in the moment, but also over time with
18:37
Speaker 2: your children. Our kids were five and seven when we divorced,
18:41
Speaker 2: so it was three or four nights at a time
18:44
Speaker 2: in each home, and then by the time they got
18:46
Speaker 2: to be about eight or ten, it made sense to
18:48
Speaker 2: go a week in each residence. After COVID, the kids
18:53
Speaker 2: came to us and said, can we just have two
18:55
Speaker 2: weeks in a house? We want to be able to
18:58
Speaker 2: settle in more. Okay, And I know a lot of
19:02
Speaker 2: parents who are so rigid about the schedule that even
19:07
Speaker 2: if Grandma comes to town unexpectedly for three days and
19:11
Speaker 2: you turn to spouse and say, hey, can we change
19:13
Speaker 2: things up a little bit, there's no flexibility. That doesn't
19:17
Speaker 2: serve anyone. So I really recommend you liberate the calendar
19:22
Speaker 2: and the schedule and let it grow with your kids
19:26
Speaker 2: appropriately and let it bend in flex The other thing
19:29
Speaker 2: is to really think about gear and how to organize gear.
19:32
Speaker 2: When kids are young, you can duplicate things across both
19:35
Speaker 2: homes pretty easily, but when it comes to the hockey
19:39
Speaker 2: gear and the ski gear and the bicycles, then those
19:43
Speaker 2: are items that are going to have to be coordinated
19:45
Speaker 2: between parents, not the children's responsibilities, certainly not when they're young.
19:51
Speaker 2: We do the parenting business off stage, and then it
19:54
Speaker 2: just magically happens for kids.
19:58
Speaker 3: Take Away four flexibilit is key when you co parent
20:01
Speaker 3: with a former spouse, think about what's best for the kids,
20:04
Speaker 3: not for you, and do the business of parenting privately,
20:08
Speaker 3: not in front of your kids. Also, try to make
20:11
Speaker 3: the transitions easier for them. One thing Karen and her
20:14
Speaker 3: former husband did they didn't call their houses Mom's house
20:17
Speaker 3: and Dad's house because the kids belonged in both places,
20:20
Speaker 3: so they named the houses after the streets they lived on. You,
20:24
Speaker 3: on the other hand, might call your houses the park
20:26
Speaker 3: view House and the riverview House, or the.
20:29
Speaker 4: Blue House and the Yellow House.
20:31
Speaker 3: You can also ask your kids to name them something creative.
20:37
Speaker 3: For folks who are looking for a cooperative divorce and
20:41
Speaker 3: not an acrimonious one, where can they start.
20:46
Speaker 2: Well first steps don't call an attorney. Look for some
20:51
Speaker 2: alternative experts divorce coaching. I think Catherine Woodward Thomas her
20:59
Speaker 2: book Conscious and Upling teaches us so much about the
21:02
Speaker 2: emotional journey of the relationship rupture that we also really underestimate.
21:07
Speaker 2: We forget that there's a breakup when we're just focused
21:10
Speaker 2: on dividing assets.
21:12
Speaker 3: I think you mentioned in the book there are some
21:14
Speaker 3: models where each spouse has a lawyer, but it's still
21:19
Speaker 3: a cooperative, friendly environment.
21:22
Speaker 2: The collaborative law movement was designed by an attorney who
21:28
Speaker 2: recognized that he was tired of sitting in courtrooms and
21:33
Speaker 2: watching families destroy each other. So collaborative law is recognized
21:38
Speaker 2: by the American Bar Association. And the strategy is not
21:42
Speaker 2: so much that you and your spouse have to be collaborative,
21:46
Speaker 2: like you're coming to the table all amicable and cooperative.
21:50
Speaker 2: It's really telling the attorneys they need to collaborate because
21:57
Speaker 2: attorneys are trained to for their client to the death
22:04
Speaker 2: against the opposing counsel. And if that opposing counsel is
22:09
Speaker 2: representing your co parent, well now we've got trouble that's
22:12
Speaker 2: going to echo for decades. But in collaborative law, you
22:16
Speaker 2: each come with your own attorney, You sit at the
22:20
Speaker 2: table together. There's often a neutral financial person at the
22:26
Speaker 2: table helping to talk about those finances, and there's also
22:30
Speaker 2: often a mental health professional or a child life specialist.
22:34
Speaker 2: So you have this wrap around service. And within the
22:38
Speaker 2: good divorce model that I guide people through, we work
22:42
Speaker 2: on family and then finances, and the attorneys at the
22:46
Speaker 2: very end, I guide couples to write their parenting plan,
22:51
Speaker 2: make their financial decisions, the restructuring of how they're going
22:56
Speaker 2: to live. There's so much pre work, the communication plan,
23:00
Speaker 2: and then we show up an attorney's office who's willing
23:05
Speaker 2: to do the written legal work, and they become much
23:09
Speaker 2: more of an administrator of divorce.
23:13
Speaker 4: Take Away five.
23:13
Speaker 3: If you want a cooperative divorce, Karen says, don't start
23:17
Speaker 3: with an attorney. Seek the advice of other experts first,
23:20
Speaker 3: like a divorce coach, a licensed marriage and family therapist,
23:24
Speaker 3: or co parenting specialist. And know that there is a
23:27
Speaker 3: legal model called collaborative law where you each have an attorney,
23:31
Speaker 3: but you come up with a plan together and also
23:33
Speaker 3: get the help of mental health and parenting specialists. The
23:36
Speaker 3: goal is to reach a settlement without going to court.
23:41
Speaker 3: Given what you know about divorce, what questions do you
23:46
Speaker 3: think couples should be asking themselves before they get married.
23:50
Speaker 2: One, This is a legal business contract. Really understand what
23:58
Speaker 2: it is that you're saying yes to, not planning a wedding,
24:02
Speaker 2: not the romantic love part, but the business part. Which
24:07
Speaker 2: is why I actually think those prenuptial agreements that as
24:12
Speaker 2: a culture have been put into this bucket of unromantic
24:17
Speaker 2: threatening There is no harm in my opinion, and having
24:22
Speaker 2: a prenuptial agreement that even if you decided not to
24:27
Speaker 2: file it or write it out, having the conversation about
24:30
Speaker 2: what would be in it. What are the implications, Oh,
24:34
Speaker 2: you're bringing an inheritance, what happens if that gets entangled?
24:38
Speaker 5: Oh?
24:39
Speaker 2: What does it mean if we buy this house together?
24:41
Speaker 2: What does it mean if one of us works more
24:43
Speaker 2: and one of us works less?
24:44
Speaker 5: Like, we just don't know.
24:47
Speaker 2: And so often when people arrive at the threshold of divorce,
24:51
Speaker 2: one of the first they're like, we don't know what
24:52
Speaker 2: we're doing.
24:53
Speaker 5: We don't know anything about this.
24:55
Speaker 2: Get educated about the business part of it. I would
24:59
Speaker 2: also suggest that we underestimate what it is to be roommates,
25:05
Speaker 2: like life partners in the day today. What are your
25:10
Speaker 2: value systems around cooking, cleaning, where you spend time, how
25:16
Speaker 2: much alone time you need? Like these really fundamental areas
25:21
Speaker 2: of compatibility, because I think it's easy to fall in
25:25
Speaker 2: love and not actually know if you're compatible.
25:29
Speaker 4: Do you think you'd get married again?
25:35
Speaker 5: Yes, long pause.
25:40
Speaker 2: I think it's an abstract question right now, because I
25:44
Speaker 2: am a solo pilot of my life. I very much
25:48
Speaker 2: want to be repartnered in a way that is secure
25:56
Speaker 2: and deep and rich and supportive. And I don't know
26:01
Speaker 2: that the legal marital construct is something that I would
26:06
Speaker 2: say yes to again. I'm not saying no, I'm saying huh.
26:09
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I absolutely hope that I get
26:15
Speaker 2: to say yes to a lifelong commitment with a partner.
26:19
Speaker 2: As I believe, we often are given the opportunity to
26:23
Speaker 2: become a better version of ourself through partnership, and that
26:28
Speaker 2: isn't just romantic partnership but all relationships.
26:32
Speaker 3: Well, I wish that for you too. Thank you, Karen,
26:37
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for this.
26:39
Speaker 5: It's been a delight. Thank you.
26:42
Speaker 4: Okay, time for a recap.
26:44
Speaker 3: Take Away one, think of divorce as a tool, not
26:47
Speaker 3: a weapon, and pull it out of the box sooner
26:50
Speaker 3: rather than later. Start the process before you and your
26:53
Speaker 3: spouse absolutely hate each other.
26:56
Speaker 4: Take Away two, do no more harm.
26:58
Speaker 3: One way to set that tone is by sending a
27:00
Speaker 3: joint message to your community telling them they don't need
27:03
Speaker 3: to pick sides and you still have respect for each other.
27:06
Speaker 3: Take Away three, work towards indifference. Take Away four Flexibility
27:12
Speaker 3: is key when you co parent with a former spouse.
27:15
Speaker 3: And take Away five. If you want a cooperative divorce,
27:17
Speaker 3: Karen says, don't start with an attorney. Instead, seek the
27:21
Speaker 3: advice of other experts, like a divorce coach, a licensed
27:24
Speaker 3: marriage and family therapist, or a co parenting specialist, and
27:28
Speaker 3: consider coming to a settlement through a legal model called
27:31
Speaker 3: collaborative law.
27:33
Speaker 4: All right, that's our show. Before we go, what do
27:36
Speaker 4: you think?
27:36
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27:45
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