Latest / The Authority Podcast — Expert Insights and Fresh Ideas for Education Leaders / The Deliberate and Courageous Principal with Rhonda Roos
Transcript
- Ross Romano: [00:00:00] Welcome in everybody to the Authority Podcast here on the BE Podcast Network. Thanks as always for being with us and if you are a school leader and many of you are, this is a conversation that is going to be valuable for you. We're going to be talking actions and skills and all the various things that help you create the high achieving school that you want. So my guest today is Dr. Rhonda Roos. She is an educational consultant, coaching principals, district leaders, and administrative teams in the complex and ever changing work of leading schools. She's a former assistant superintendent in New Albany, Indiana, where she led curricular improvement, aligning those efforts with district's progress, and becoming a [00:01:00] professional learning community. Rhonda is the author of a new book, or a It's actually not brand new, but it's, it's new-ish and it's still just as relevant as ever. The Deliberate and Courageous Principal: 10 Leadership Actions and Skills to Create High Achieving Schools. Rhonda, welcome to the show. Rhonda Roos: Thank you so much, Ross. Ross Romano: Let's start with a big picture question. What, what's the big idea goal behind this book? What did you have in mind when you decided that this is the book you wanted to write? Rhonda Roos: Actually, Ross, I never really ever wanted to or intended to write a book, so I think it all stems from you know, my, I served as the principal of a middle school for about a decade, and the entire time, Ross, that I was trying to lead that building, I was really fighting the question of, do I know what I'm doing? Am I doing [00:02:00] what principals are doing who are leading effective schools where kids are achieving at higher levels, right? I doubted myself the entire time. So later in life, I went back to do my doctoral work on just that. What are, this was in Indiana, but the, the question was, what are highly effective schools? with high poverty, what are they doing, right, in middle schools in Indiana? There weren't very many of them, Ross, but I did get to go visit four of them, do qualitative research on them, etc. Right? It was reassuring to me to find that those schools were doing some of the same things that I had been doing, but even deeper, more intense levels. So when I was eligible to retire, I left the district where I was to go really just begin consulting in Indiana and Kentucky with friends who had said, Hey, come and tell us what you found out. [00:03:00] So then Solution Tree had reached out to say, Hey, we'd like you to put this into a book form. That's the way that all happened. But my intent was, even with the consulting, just to go help principals and answer all those questions of what I wish someone had told me. earlier in my career. Ross Romano: Yeah. Was there a particular piece of the Principalship that? you found most difficult in that I'm sure if there was, that was kind of in your mind throughout, throughout your consulting work and then throughout the process of writing this book, saying, okay, I want to make sure I help people with this. Rhonda Roos: Yes, yes, there was. And here's the one thing. In fact, in my first year of my, my principalship, around Thanksgiving time, Ross, I had written a letter to my superintendent telling him that I was going to resign at the end of that first year. because I was so overwhelmed. I never gave it to him, but I sure [00:04:00] did write it. And here's what it was that got me. I knew as a building principal, it was a large school. We had a thousand kids, right? And I knew my main responsibility or the question that I should be able to answer was, how are kids learning? in every single classroom inside this school. So I knew that work of what we needed to be doing, right? But I couldn't get to it, Ross, because of all these other things. I now call them systems that I was in charge of. And you're always running, you know, and putting out all those fires. So the step and the process that's been most helpful for me was this. naming all those things like, you know, back to school night, registration, school safety, new teacher induction. I had 69 of them in my first year as a principal, right? So I thought, okay, if I named these, And if every [00:05:00] semester I choose 10 or 12 of them to really either revise or create or whatever, just solve it fundamentally so those systems are running well and efficiently, then I can keep my focus over here on, you know, our kids learning at high levels. So, to answer your question, that was my number one. I was overwhelmed with all the stuff I was responsible for. And most of it, Ross, early on, it was a mess. Every system was a mess. Thus, the letter to my superintendent. Now, by the end of the year, with the leadership team, we'd cleaned up a lot, so I didn't quit. But I was sure thinking about it. Ross Romano: Yeah. And I can sense as we get into some of the particulars of, of what you've written about in the book, that they're going to really speak to what you just said. Described and, and that that's a feeling that I'm sure [00:06:00] leaders have felt certainly early on in their roles, but but probably throughout. And, and it, you know, the things are always changing, right. The demands, the, the people, the stakeholders, there's always something that feels chaotic and and making sense of that and choosing what are the right things to focus on. And being realistic and reasonable with yourself about, okay, here's what we can do now, and it is, is step one for, as a school leader, right, to, to kind of, you, it's going to be hard. For you to reconcile what the realistic expectations are that others have of you until you can be realistic with yourself. Rhonda Roos: Yes, Ross, exactly. And it was, it's really bringing clarity to [00:07:00] yourself first. Hey, this is reasonable. I can get this much done. in this semester. And that's, that's exactly Ross. I'm so glad you brought that up because that's exactly what chapter two is about is bringing clarity to the work first for yourself as the principal. And I began using a tool called a playbook that I really took from Pat Lincione, author of like five dysfunctions of a team, et cetera. But I love that idea of a playbook. So I would share with our leadership team, PLCs now call it, you know, Solution Tree, a guiding coalition, but I would go, okay, here's what we're going to get done in ELA this semester. Here's what we're going to get done in math. And then, you know, other subjects. Right? And then we had one page for, and here are all the systems we're going to build. I called that page, Systems and Other Stuff. Just to come back to what you said, all that crap that comes up, right, in the semester. But it was [00:08:00] clear, the team knew, Okay Rhonda, we know what you expect, I got their feedback. My, I leaned toward Ross, maybe expecting too much of people, so I had to count on that leadership team to go, okay, that's too much and you're killing us. We could get this done, right? But once we agreed on that, as the leadership team with me, then we took it. to full staff because I knew I had their backing and they were with me and they really helped get that work done. And I would say this too, on this point, Ross, I have a firm belief that teachers have the most difficult role inside the school. There is, there is no doubt. And our job as administrators is to support them in that difficult work of, you know, teaching kids. But I do think we're not fair to teachers because things have become so complex, especially lately and after COVID and everything else. So that clarity piece also goes for [00:09:00] teachers. So when we said Each semester, these are the specific things we expect and that we're going to get done. We got pretty good at instructionally saying, like, let's go to seventh grade math. Our kids could not do slope. So we chose that. That was on the playbook as a team. We're going to find new instructional ways to teach doggone slope because nobody's getting it, right? And then you could prove we would do, you know, nothing fancy and complex, but we would do checks to see how much kids had improved. So clarity, I think, you know, Brene Brown will say, you know, clarity is key. No, she says clear is kind, and I believe that. I think we're not fair to teachers, to our leadership teams about where are we going this semester, because when you do set clarity, and then they do accomplish all that, then your will [00:10:00] starts. Ross Romano: yeah, yeah. And then you can appreciate what they achieved and, and instead of taking it for granted, right? Because when you've had that clarity and that conversation and that agreement on what those objectives are everybody has had time to think about and contextualize the effort required to do it, right? Like, what went into that and, and that, you know, that allows them to have to understand that you're on the same page as far as what we're working toward and that they they can confidently go about that job and not worry. In the back of their head, I think I'm doing a good job here, but I don't know if my principal, you know, thinks I should be doing something different, but also from your perspective, it allows you to, to have a better appreciation of, of what went on Rhonda Roos: Yes. Ross Romano: well, this is kind of what I expected and it happened so great and, you know, and you can't [00:11:00] build on that. Rhonda Roos: Yeah. That's exactly it, Ross, because, you know, teachers, even when we've got a pacing guide and they're teaching all of this in first quarter, and even if we gave a little, you know, common form and assessment at the end, now, I don't know how it is for all principals, but for myself, for most principals I've worked with our kids in the beginning, let's say we were checking five or six learning target. We were horrible at most all of them. Yeah. So instead of saying, Okay, teachers, let's fix them all. It's impossible, Ross. It's impossible. So we would highlight one or two, find a new way to teach that. That's very difficult work. And then they could feel the success of, focusing in on a couple, and then kids really did get better at it. And then as an administrative team, our observations and evaluations, everything was focused on that, right? So it all kind of went together. Oh, we know where we're [00:12:00] going. And when we fix those, we're Right? Next quarter, we choose another one or two to fix. So, it just, I think, was fortifying to teachers to see, Okay, I'm going to work hard, and it is making a difference because you're not looking at everything. We're looking at these certain targets, if that makes sense. Ross Romano: Yeah, absolutely. So in the book, it's broken into two parts. Part one is the five essential leadership actions. Part two is the five skills. What's, what's the difference? Like how did you define actions versus skills? Why did you choose to organize it this way? Rhonda Roos: Yes. I think it was from years of observing the leaders that I worked for as a, you know, as a teacher, I was a secondary English teacher for years, and then a guidance counselor in elementary and in secondary, and then as an assistant principal, I mean, you go through Ross, as you well know, a lot of leaders, and here's what I [00:13:00] found. I found that They either knew the right actions to be taking, like the stuff, like they were good curricularly, and they knew how to set us up for learning, etc. They could run meetings well. Yet, they were lacking these skills of building relationships with teachers. right? Handling conflict well or holding people accountable. So, well, I'm just going to say it kind of bluntly. Sometimes the leaders who knew what to do, nobody wanted to work for them, Ross, because they were condescending or just didn't get along with people, right? Now, I had very few of those. Most of my career, I was looking for very kind people that could build relationships, right? Just good human beings. I think that's what most educators are, but they did not lay an extensive, rigorous, rigorous. [00:14:00] expectation and plan for us to do as a staff. So the whole reason for the book being divided into two parts, it's both Ross, the leader, and I put a lot of pressure on the leader in the building because it falls back to the principal. I really believe that. And we need both parts. We need to know the part I struggled with was, am I doing the right actions? Am Right? And along with that, I've got to believe in my people and build trust with them. And Ross, I hate to say this, but actually know them, every single adult in the building, and know a little bit about their life and their family and what's going on with them. And once that trust is built, you can handle some of the conflict that will arise. It's always with us. Right? And when you've been clear with people, it's so much easier to hold them accountable. And then when teachers see their principal holding people [00:15:00] accountable, they start holding each other accountable. So I just got very disheartened in my career thinking, gosh, how come leaders aren't both? So if that makes sense, that's the two part. I like the second part of the book better when you're talking about the, you know, A lot of times people will call it, Oh, those are just the soft skills. And I said, Oh, there's no just to it. They are very difficult things to demonstrate to people. They're just as important as the actions for sure. Ross Romano: so as, as you have laid out here the, the relationships piece is so important. And and since you like the second part better, we can even talk about the second part first. How about that? And there's a few in particular, right? There's five different chapters, five different skills here. But you know, there, there's a couple from each section in particular that I want to pull out. [00:16:00] Talk a little more about and, and really give an idea of what your approach to this is and what leaders are thinking about. And one of the, the skills piece is hold people accountable, right? Accountability, big word, means a lot of things, stirs up a lot of emotions in schools and, you know, of course, from the leadership perspective and from just a professional perspective, it's important, like, the concept of being accountable and having accountability for one's work is critical but it's almost a, you know, a term that's been taken to to, to be associated with testing and scores and that kind of thing which is a totally separate thing, right, from professional accountability, but you know, from your view, when you think about a principal's role in holding staff, faculty accountable, what, what are [00:17:00] the, things that you're most concerned about, most focused on in, you know, ensuring and creating clarity around what you want those teachers to be accountable for, Rhonda Roos: Oh, thank you for going to the accountability piece. And I think I would say this. So, in the first part of the book, in the chapter we were just discussing on being clear with people, give your people clarity, I bring up these tools, one of those is the principal playbook, right, because I'm going to repeat this part because I don't think you can hold people accountable until you've given them enough clarity, right, so the principal playbook by department, by grade level, is going to say, Okay, teachers. Let's say I've got four seventh grade math teachers. Here's what we're going to do this semester, right? They've all agreed. We've chosen and prioritized these things. Okay, that's one. A second tool I like to use was the principal's vision. So on opening day of school, Ross, [00:18:00] we're going to say, Here's where I believe with my full heart we can get by the end of May. I think teachers and staff need that vision to know where we're heading. And the last one that I love is on opening day, I would always give my top 10. Ross, you look young. You're about my kid's age. But anyway, back in the day, David Letterman, he used to have this top 10 thing that he did. Okay, so I was using that. So on opening day, I would go, okay, top 10 expectations from me as your principal. You need to know, I expect us to all do these things and we should never have to talk about these again. Like Ross, and I give an example in there, I forget what chapter that's in, but anyway, like, be on time, right? Be at your morning duty, p. m. duty, whatever duty you got, right? Be there. Use every single minute of your day. of your instructional period, right? We were like, we were given free days, Ross, every [00:19:00] other, you know, week. Anyway, I'm trying to think of a few others of mine. Oh, we had an issue with assemblies and sitting with students, right? We had some fights breaking out. So a simple top 10 was, hey, sit with your students during assembly speak positively about Scribner when you're out in public. Okay, that kind of thing. So on opening day, I would say to them, There they are, right? We should never have to talk about these again and I will never bring them up to you staff ever again as a staff. Okay, so then you put those down. Then right here, Ross, is the kicker which brings me to accountability. If people were not living, Right? Those basic expectations that we've all agreed to, then I, as the leader, had to go and have a conversation or a real dialogue or whatever, one on one, right? One on one to that person to go, hey, you're missing your morning duty, you're a department English [00:20:00] chair, I need you here on time, blah, blah, blah. So, I know, I can remember teaching English and being the department chair and our principal started the year by saying, this is everything we're going to do. Well, Ross, half of us were doing it and half of us weren't. And he never said a thing. No, I take that back. He would say something to full staff like, now you guys, I told you we need to be doing that. And some of you have not been on time. And then all of us who were killing ourselves to do the work, you know, you're wondering, was it me? Did he see me come in one minute late last week? Whatever. So I knew then, I hated that get on the whole staff, right, thing. So I think the accountability. is crucial to your very best people in the building who are working so hard. If we've said this is what we're going to do, then the leader, right, it's called that parallel accountability, but I really don't blame teachers for not [00:21:00] holding each other accountable until they see their leader do it. Oh, and Ross, here's one thing that's funny. This may not surprise you, but it did me. So, let's say I was having this conversation with a teacher who had been tardy, right? And I went to her room to talk to her about it in private, one on one, not in the front office where everybody's nibby and can hear all the stuff, right? Okay. Well, later that day, several teachers said something like, Yay, thank you for talking, you know, to Henrietta. Thank you for talking to her. And I was shocked at how do these other teachers know? Then I talked to Henrietta about it, right? Well, what I wasn't ready for as a young principal is these two, they go tell everybody like, can you believe Rhonda got on me today about being late and not leaving the English department meeting or whatever, and at first that upset me. And then I realized it did such good for our building. Then people knew she meant it. She's holding us to what we said [00:22:00] we were going to do. So that that's that. The only other thing I would add here is. Accountability in both, both sides of accountability. There's quantitative, which is a little bit easier for me. Like, Oh, you've been tardy three times. Oh, you didn't turn in your data after the CFA, right? You can talk to people about that. But there's also this qualitative piece, Ross, and this was hard for me, but maybe the teacher who's always negative, right? Or for me, I had a teacher who was extremely sarcastic in a negative way with students, right? Putting them down, very cutting, blah, blah, blah. So I handled that the same way I did the quantitative stuff. I just, my data was, I heard you say this, to a student right in the cafeteria. I heard you say this to a parent. Here's an exact quote of what [00:23:00] you said that was very demeaning to this parent who's honestly, Ross, just walked from our projects right into the IEP meeting. So that was the data I used. And then to make it clear, hey, as long as I'm here trying to lead the joint, that is not okay. That is, I got to be clear with those kinds of comments, demeaning other people. They're not okay, right? And so, next time, if I hear you do that again, you're just very clear. We'll put, it'll go in your file, whatever those silly forms are we use. So, I was scared to death to do the qualitative part. But I think that had more of an impact on our school when people knew she's even willing to address that stuff. Does that make sense, both sides of that accountability part? Ross Romano: And I, and I like that, you know, the, the examples you gave, like your top 10 for accountability, they're, they're straightforward. [00:24:00] They are, you know, they're those. non negotiables, right, that are things that everybody has to do them consistently. Nobody else can make up for somebody who's not upholding it. And, and and they're kind of contagious, slippery slope things, right? If, if there's one person who's you know, routinely late and they're not covering their responsibility. It doesn't matter how early everybody else shows up, right? They can't make up for that. Or you know, when one teacher starts talking negatively about the school out in public, you know, it kind of gets contagious and it goes around. And it was like, I don't know, I was visualizing kind of like, like a You know, a row boat or a rowing team. And if, if one person on one side stops rowing and the boat starts to, you know, go, you know, turn the easiest way to straighten it [00:25:00] out is for somebody on the other side to also stop. Right. I mean, that's a lot easier than the other people rowing harder or somebody over here tries to row harder and it just goes more out of line. Like there, you know, everybody just needs to do their part. And you keep going the right way in the right direction. And I like that because you know, I think that the accountability and people's perceptions of accountability and how some leaders try to enforce it is, you know, accountability is kind of at the expense of understanding when, when things are more complex, nuanced, when there's more variables, when, when I can't be, you know, when, you know, especially when it has to do with, student outcomes and performance and all the different factors that relate to those and okay We have a metric we have to be accountable and if we're not doing what we need to be doing I don't want to hear you know, I don't want to hear about it versus these kind of things like Okay, if you [00:26:00] relate one time, could something crazy happen? But if it happens again, again, it just can't happen. And the less time we spend talking about this stuff, right? The more time that we can use to have dialogue about the things that are more complicated and understand our data better and really get what's going on here so we can get better. But in order to do that, we can't be spending all our time trying to enforce simple rules that everybody just needs to do. Rhonda Roos: Ross, I could not say it any better. First of all, I love that analogy of the robot, the ro boat, okay? Everybody just do your part and, and Ross, you hit it exactly. If we're spending time on this low level, piddly stuff, we are not getting to the real work. And our product You know, as a business, it's students, it's kids who are not reading at grade level. We're not getting where we need to be. So any amount of time, that's why I [00:27:00] think making it clear to staff up front. Right? It's not a boss. It's not done in a bossy way. It's done in what you just said. Hey, here are the basic expectations, right? I expect everybody to be on them. I don't want to talk about this anymore because we got to get over here to the playbook stuff that matters. You hit it straight on. That's exactly it. And then you're never coming back to people who are doing their, it's, it's usually typically, Ross, only a few. And when you address that, I can't tell you how much it pays off. I just can't tell you how much it pays off because There's a, there's a a framework I took from Peter Senge and it's on how to have a real dialogue and I put that in the chapter on building trust and relationships with people. So at Solution Tree, they said it really feels like that real dialogue model should go back here with accountability. And I begged them, I said, please let me keep that in the first chapter because here's what I learned. [00:28:00] And it doesn't take long to learn this. Ross, when you are having those real conversations with people, you build so much trust with everybody else. They're like, yeah, she talked to them about it. Now, sometimes when the person goes out and tells them like, can you believe Rhonda got on me for being tardy eight times? I can't even believe it. Now, sometimes teachers in the beginning will go, oh, no, I can't even believe she's making a big deal of that. That's in the beginning, right? And once they see their leader is going to hold people to things, then they will begin to say, Oh, Yeah, you were eight, you know, eight times tardy. Stop. It's ridiculous. Blah. Ross Romano: Yeah. And I, and I'm sure that they, I mean, you know, the, the, maybe that's what the other teachers say, but really, you know, they appreciate seeing that, okay, you're actually going to hold my colleagues accountable for these things so I can just focus on doing what I do and not have the distractions of, okay, well, you know, [00:29:00] and, you know, all those things that tear at, even if it's just am I. Am I, am I dumb for following the rules here when nobody else is doing it and nobody's being held accountable, right? Or why am I doing this? Or, well, this person has been late 10 times. Surely it's no big deal if I'm late once or twice, and then it just compounds. But when they see the account of, you know, because for the most part, right, every, the 90, you know, 5 percent or they, want everybody to just do what's supposed to be done. They know it makes, you know, the school better. They know it makes them better. But Rhonda Roos: It's Ross Romano: they don't really see that there's actually accountability, then, you know, then it, then it just wears on them. So the next, Rhonda Roos: Was just going to add one thing. It's really about the health of the school, the health of the organization, right? You're trying to keep the place healthy and running well and efficiently. And of course, it's all in the way the [00:30:00] leader does the real dialogue, right? Somebody, and I can't remember who this quote is from, but, you know, had said, Hey, listen, don't cut what you can untie. So it is, of course, the way you have the conversation with somebody, of course, right? Anyway, okay, Ross Romano: Yeah. And then, you know, so the, the, the other skill that I wanted to call out here is from, from chapter nine, lean into the positive, and there's a variety of strategies associated with that. Are there any that stand out that you want to highlight about, you know, what that looks like to really lean into the positive and, and turn that into an effective leadership skill? Rhonda Roos: yes. I'm so glad you asked about that one. Let me sign it. So, it's very interesting in that chapter. Ross, there are six tools we call them or strategies to help principals or leaders lean positive in [00:31:00] the midst of all this negativity. And I don't know if it's my personality and my makeup, but I can lean negative. Like things will be going great. 90 people will feel wonderful about things, but two are upset. And I just leaned into that negative side. Too much. So I went reading a ton of books. So every research piece is linked to the tool, right? I'm trying to think of the name of the book and it just left me. It's by Sean Aker. The Happiness Advantage, maybe, by Sean. Okay. So a couple of the tools are from his research that he did. But one of them is called Priming the Brain. priming the brain. And it's where you, he says, all of the research that was done on this, but when you're getting ready to do a difficult task, maybe one of those is having a real dialogue, right, with a teacher. Maybe it's before you're going into a, a difficult, I don't know, curricular meeting, whatever it might be. There's all kinds of them. School board meetings now aren't [00:32:00] easy. Many principals are required to attend most of those. Okay. So Shawn Aker will talk about, Hey, you just need to stop. Take a few seconds, get quiet, prime your brain by thinking about a few positive things. It might be a memory from the last week of something good, it might be something that you're looking forward to coming up tomorrow, that evening, whatever it might be. Small things. It could be going out to dinner with your partner, whatever it might be in life, just stop and let your brain think on that for about 30 seconds to a minute before you enter, right, the difficult situation. So, I cannot even tell you, What a shift mentally for me that did. I think you're just stopping. You're breathing. It's not a full meditation. It's just a few couple of minutes. So before we used to have meetings called [00:33:00] CDC where every teacher Representing every school would come down to the district with all of their complaints about everything going wrong and I would literally Ross go to a restroom that was hidden back in the back down by the copy machines. I would go into that restroom, just stand there for about two to three minutes to get myself mentally and emotionally ready to attend to that meeting. So priming the brain is one of my very favorites. I still use it before I ever go consult with the team at a particular school or a district. I always stop for a few minutes. think about the people involved and get ready to try to lead it my best way. That, that strategy helped me along with the other five. And Ross, here's something funny. Solution Tree said, nah, we're not going to leave all six of those in there. So they, they send the book out to several people and they get feedback on which strategies [00:34:00] should stay in there. And it turned out chapter nine is the favorite chapter. So they left them all six. That felt pretty good. Ross Romano: excellent. Excellent. So to the actions part of this the first one is establish a vision focused on learning. What, what is. most typically lacking of this. Is it, is it lack of establishing a clear vision? Is it, you know, an unfocused vision? What, what have you found and how, how, how does it, how is this done? Rhonda Roos: Okay. And it's both of those things are certainly involved that you just said, lack of a vision, lack of focus in it. But, but Ross, here's the main thing. In my over 40 years of experience now, think I had one leader who shared a vision in the beginning of the school year. So the number one thing that's missing is the whole thing, the principal, the leader's [00:35:00] vision for the school. So Ross, this is not the school's. Vision statement or mission statement or core beliefs. Those are all fine and good and beautiful, you know, sometimes they're way too wordy for me, but that's separate. This is a simple thing I took from the research of James Clear, he wrote Atomic Habits, and he would say, gosh, come on, the leader has got to, on opening day, say to her staff, clearly, Okay, it's August, or it's July. Here's where I think we can be in May. And James Clear says there are four things that need to happen. First of all, it should be about learning, right? That's the mission of the school, so that kids are learning at a higher level. So, he says, you need to put in there some adjectives. Like, we're going to be more committed to the work of the playbook, right? We're going to do more collaborating and whatever, some adjectives. Then he says, you can tell a story. Like, things are going so well, you guys. By the time we get [00:36:00] to May, district office is going to come to our building and say, What's going on? You guys are doing great. There's a story. Some pictures are involved, painting the picture. And here's the final one. Numbers. Where you literally say, here's where we're achieving right now. Okay. Seventh grade math. Let's say we're at a 55. I see us hitting over the 60. We're going to be at 61. So we're going to name and claim which students will this be that will become proficient. Right. All of that. And whenever I do this work. And the principal shares that on opening day and then you talk about it all year long, right? But the number one request, Ross, tell me how this hits you. The principals will say, Rhonda, I love it. I love it. I'm going to do all of that except the numbers. I just don't want to do the numbers, right? And I'm like, you cannot wuss out on me. We gotta have numbers. That's what gives the clarity. When our [00:37:00] kids are writing, down in, I was with the school last week, their writing proficiency was a 28%, Ross. We gotta look at the number. I'm not a testing assessment person, but our kids aren't writing well. So let's at least get that up to maybe. 38 for next year and I think teachers then go, Ooh, she means business and you're going to be able to see Then they join in with your vision to go. Okay, that would be about this many kids Right? We want them all to be proficient, but we're gonna focus in on these. So the principal shares it on opening day. Usually before that, I run it by the leadership team to make sure they feel good about it. And then we just keep talking about it, but how much clarity teachers get first day, out of the gate. I just, I love it so much. I yearned for a leader who would tell us, you know, back to your rowboat analogy, where are we going? Ross Romano: Yeah. Rhonda Roos: Where do you expect us to get? Thanks. Right? [00:38:00] That's it. That's all that piece is. But I think it's so critical. Ross Romano: Yeah. Rhonda Roos: And I think leaders are afraid to do it, Ross. I think we're just, they're so hesitant and afraid. But if we set a, you know, a practical, achievable vision, I love it. I love it. Ross Romano: Yeah, I think right. I mean, that, that specificity is important and it's, and it gives the school and the school year its uniqueness and say, like, our, our students are unique, our community, our, you know, this year's students are unique from last year, et cetera, not just, you know, I think about this a lot. as pertains to the school's mission statements and values as well. That's to say, well, we can't just overlook it and draft off of, well, we're in education, so we know what that means. Like what makes [00:39:00] this the place where you want to work, the place where you want to be a student, the place where you want your kids to go, the goals that we have as you said with the numbers, you know, the numbers give, they give not, not just a target, but they give. some tangibility to what those goals mean. And okay, I know I can understand. All right, that means this many students versus, versus kind of things that are more ethereal and you know, what does improvement mean? And there's no way to really say it. And you know, and, and I don't know what would be The I guess the fear of doing so you know, is it, is it too daunting? Is it discouraging? But ultimately, what, what do we really want? I mean, I, I think sometimes that's, it's the, Assumptions and taking it for granted that [00:40:00] because we're in this field, we're in this profession, we like know why we're here. That's one reason why it doesn't happen. Sometimes it may be another, which relates to anybody, you know, not having a clear vision of what they're doing, whether they're a school, an individual, is. Not knowing what they want, like, what, what do we really want? And is it, I don't know, it doesn't seem too, is it too bold to ask or too bold to lay it out there or to say we have 28 percent proficiency right now. And I want that to be 85, you know, well, how could we, you know, well, guess what, you know, guess, guess how it's not going to happen is if you don't say it and you don't aim for it. There's no way, you know, and, Rhonda Roos: That's it. Yes, Ross, that's it. And if I'm at 28, right, you know, and I was guilty of probably setting my goals too high. I think that sometimes leaders get afraid of, what if we don't reach it though, Rhonda? It's [00:41:00] okay if you don't reach it, right? But we're going to give them something tight that is doable that we can. And I think Ross, it comes down to this for me. Because I was in a school, and now I think this school currently, You know, it's probably 75 or 78 percent free and reduced lunch. The EL population, right? If you were a new to the country, a new speak and, or a one and a two and a three came, it was the magnet for those EL students, et cetera. So for me, it is equity. The vision is about. Equity for I don't care if the child is special ed. I do not care if we've said these are the five or six things this quarter, then we're talking every child unless we already know they're going to not be able to live independently, right? Then we're going for all of them because I'm only talking about the basic learning targets. And then we're going to go. Children are not reading at grade level, so we're not going to keep passing [00:42:00] them on. They can't read a grade level at six. 6th, we go to 7th, we go to 8th, and I sent them off to the high school. So we had like 33 percent of our kids coming to us. We got it down to 18%, but Ross, it's the hardest work I ever did sitting with 8th grade African American young men who could not read, and here's what I found. You're just honest with them, and you say, listen, you're in the 8th grade, you're reading at a 5th grade level, that's on us. That is on us. It's our fault. We got to try some more strategies with you. We're going to get there. So, all of this achievement, if it's not tightly stated, right, we are not going to have. Equity for everybody. And if we don't get it right in education it's terrifying for me. Otherwise we just pass kids on and they're not learning and they've got to go out into the world, not nearly being at the levels where I know we can get [00:43:00] them. (ad here) Ross Romano: you know, yeah, we're conflicting incompatible incentive systems for what, what the metrics look like, what teachers can achieve a bonus for versus what our goals really should be for students. You know, and when those things are irreconcilable and the goals are not that ambitious because, because we're You know, by nature, the way that compensation is structured is around, well, if we don't hit those goals, and that's, to me, that's just proof that it's a poorly constructed system, right? Like, I mean, why should the goal ever be anything less than 100%, right? It doesn't mean that we're going to achieve that, but it means, like, Why shouldn't that always be the goal? And so it's, I mean, it's an opportunity [00:44:00] to rethink, like, what do we mean? And also for, for the leaders to say, look, when we're setting a vision and we're setting our goals, we're saying we really want to achieve that. is a separate thing from these other things, right? Like, let's not just tie it all together and say, like, what's the proficiency and what does it mean to be highly effective and blah, blah, blah, blah, and say, like, look, like, our real goal, our real vision is that every single student that walks through those doors leaves here with a degree. proficient and beyond, and that's what we're trying to do. And if we actually try for that, like, we don't know how high we, we don't know how many, because, you know, if your goal is 40 percent or something, and like, and you know that half the students are there, like, human nature is going to be, okay, well, like, I know that I have a cushion here, and I'm not at any risk, And if there's a couple more that are on the [00:45:00] borderline, like, I might have less attentiveness to getting them there because of, you know, and, and that's not any, that's not that anybody's doing that intentionally, but it's just when we don't have, right, it's the vision, it's the clarity, it's knowing, like, let's try and let's see what happens. And if we all. If we all see progress, then we know that we're, we're moving in the right direction. Yeah. One more that I wanted to touch on while we have a moment is actually the check to clarifying the essential work, right. And, you know, so we talked about clarity and what's essential and what needs to be done, and I think another, you know, another part of this that's important is clarity, consistency, and support around. Whatever is not the essential work to say, like, in other words, to say, in order to give you confidence and [00:46:00] freedom to really commit to the essential work, I need to also know, like, what I'm taking off your plate or saying, like, if you're not doing this, we're not going to come back to you later and say, Hey, but why, what about that other thing? Rhonda Roos: Oh Ross Romano: And it's, it's equally important in my, in my mind that you don't, you know, and that's, and a lot of that's about the consistency of. the leader and the accountability for, okay, like what we said was essential is essential and it's prioritized over anything else. Doesn't mean there's nothing else that ever happens but you could imagine and maybe have experienced situations where it's like my words and actions are saying two different things. I'm saying these three things are the most important, but then I'm questioning you about this other thing over here. And so, you know, I felt like that's an important thing to, to follow through on with this point and to hear your perspective on, like, really [00:47:00] instilling that confidence in those educators to say, like, this is the thing. Like, once we've established this, this is what it's going to be, and I'm not going to change my mind tomorrow or come back to you next week and say, but yeah, but what about this other thing? Rhonda Roos: Yeah, Ross, you're, you're stating these points so well. I feel like better than I have stated them even in the book. So there is two parts to this clarity. Here's what we're going to do, which means, Oh, all this other stuff, okay, is far less important and critical, or we're just not going to do it. All. So, when, and that's why I go back to this playbook again. Every department, every grade level, if I'm a fourth grade teacher, I've got my fourth grade sheet. Oh, these are the most important things, three or four, right, in the ELA and in the math. Then, the administrative team, Maybe there's a literacy coach, [00:48:00] maybe there's an AIC, and the assistant principal, and the principal, when they come in to observe, right, much less evaluate, that's down the road, but it's all about these three or four critical things to support and support and get these right. Okay, so at the same time, here's what I find very interesting. Teachers. You know, for the most part, they're just trying to make sure they do everything they're supposed to be doing. So this happened to me. We made it clear. Here's what we're going to do. And then a couple of teachers I found in tears one day. And I said, Hey, you guys, what's going on? We got a 90 minute literacy block. You've got plenty of time to get this done. Our 30 minutes of writing is separate from that. But Ross, what they were doing was three or four things from a few years back that the district had done. and had deemed essential. Now we didn't get any growth from it, but they were still doing that, like reading logs and this. Oh, I can't [00:49:00] think of all the other ones. So it was very important for me to go, Oh, sorry. I didn't even know to clean that up for them. Right? So then we started doing, you know, a list of everything you think you're supposed to be doing so we could wipe it all off of them. That, right? How unfair to teachers is that? So we had to do that. And the last thing I'd say on that is I read an article on how they call it a FOD on an aircraft carrier, and if an aircraft is getting ready to land, right, on the ship, they call it the FOD for Foreign Objects of Debris, right? So all the crewmen and women line up across the landing area, and they walk across it looking for anything that could destroy, right, the plane landing. So. I think we do FODs in schools and look for foreign objects of debris, like, now this is going to sound silly to you, Ross, but it's still out there, like, Seek and Finds, [00:50:00] like, my, my staff knew if Rhonda sees a Seek and Find, she's going to die, right? We had a ton of those, or like, if we do any more mobiles, I'm going to throw up, right? All these things we're spending time, those were going to Foreign Objects of Debris and we started making a list of those so we knew quit that's not rigorous for kids Let's stop doing that and get back here to the rear So your point of it's all this stuff. We've got to help teachers. Let go of gosh Ross That's so valid. We're gonna be clear on what to do and clear on everything else We got to take off your plate Ross Romano: Yeah, yeah, there's the, the, you know, the practical reality of managing time and priorities. And then there's the, you know, mental burden of all those things that are not [00:51:00] necessarily determining factors of how effective are you at your job that are related and are, But, but are more optional, right? Like there's a lot of things, you know, there's the, the management of teaching and learning and all of that. And then there's, you know, who, who wants to volunteer for this committee or who, who shows up when we have this parent teacher night or, you know, whatever. And any other kind of thing that's like, Ultimately, it's not a determinant of if you're good at that job. Some people are more interested in that, others are not, but there's a lot of mental, you know, space, but like, well, I guess I have to do that to show that I am, you know, invested or that I'm a 10. And the more, even a You know, even if people are still participating in those things, the more they have clarity on, I'm not being judged on that, right? I'm being judged on this, and this is what [00:52:00] matters. And if I do this well, then the other Rhonda Roos: All is well. Ross Romano: it is what it is. But it's, and, and vice versa. Like, Rhonda Roos: Yes. Ross Romano: If I'm the first person to volunteer every time there's a volunteer assignment, that's, that's not going to cover up for if I'm not doing these other things over here. Like this has to come first and and I, and, and all, you know, again, it's, it's. It's not exclusive to schools and all kinds of workplaces that happens, but certainly it happens plenty in schools because there's all kinds of demands like that. And Rhonda Roos: many demands. Ross Romano: and it's stressful. Rhonda Roos: Yes. Ross Romano: Excellent. Well, it's been wonderful talking to you, Rhonda. And as I, we mentioned, the book is the Deliberate and Courageous Principal and listeners, you can find that from Solution Tree on Amazon, wherever you get your books. Is there anything else that you'd like listeners to check out? Anything else you're working on or or anything in particular that we didn't get to talk about in the book that you'd point them to if [00:53:00] they pick it up. Rhonda Roos: I think two things just in the book at the end of each chapter are a lot of reproducibles and, you know, hopefully they'll find those very helpful to use. And the last thing I think I'd say, Ross, is this, I think maybe, you know, because I'm getting older, I don't know. But I've truly come to believe it's such a critical time for us to have exceptional leadership in education, and I think it's harder than it's ever been before, right? In my 40 some years, that's a long time, and I really think right now is most critical, and it's so difficult, and I am so appreciative of leaders who are giving it everything they've got. We don't respect it. educators. We certainly don't pay them financially, etc. We need them and I'm so very appreciative of the hard work they're giving. Don't, don't leave us, right? Don't leave [00:54:00] us. Ross Romano: Excellent. Yes. And it, and it takes, you know, a deliberate and courageous principal to support that. Right. And so there's a lot here. And certainly it's, it's connecting and tying into two other episodes we've had recently around all angles of this recruitment retention and support and all of the things. that are required for the sustainability of the education system and certainly for our children and their future. The book is The Deliberate and Courageous Principal. Check it out. We'll put the links below. Make it really easy for you. Find it there. If you're not already, please do subscribe to The Authority on your preferred platform for more author interviews like this one or visit bpodcast. network to learn about all of our shows, Rhonda Rose, thanks again for being on the show. Rhonda Roos: Thank you so much, Ross. [00:55:00]