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The FDA's New Rule on Telemedicine Abortion · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Sanny and Samantha and welcome to Steph
0:07
Speaker 1: I never told you production of High Radio, and we
0:18
Speaker 1: are thrilled to once again be joined by our good friend,
0:23
Speaker 1: the amazing, so talented Bridget Todd. Oh. I'm so happy,
0:28
Speaker 1: so happy, Thank you for having me. I'm I told
0:31
Speaker 1: you earlier. I was drinking a little sparkling wine to
0:33
Speaker 1: celebrate the holiday season and getting to hang out with
0:37
Speaker 1: you all. I'm so excited. Yes, yes, they're so excited too.
0:40
Speaker 1: And this one is actually, um pretty I'm excited to
0:44
Speaker 1: talk about it. Some rare good news I feel. But yes, um, Bridget, Uh,
0:52
Speaker 1: We're we're coming toward the end of the year and
0:54
Speaker 1: this is we're kind of finishing up recordings for one
0:59
Speaker 1: which is we very very strange. Do you have anything
1:03
Speaker 1: I know last time we talked about weird Christmas? Is
1:05
Speaker 1: there anything else like on the horizon you're excited about?
1:08
Speaker 1: Later today, we're leaving for our weirdo Christmas, which I'm
1:11
Speaker 1: so ecstatic about, so happy. Yeah, I'm also spending the
1:15
Speaker 1: holidays with my brand new, fresh out the oven niece,
1:19
Speaker 1: little baby three months old and the cutest kid in
1:23
Speaker 1: the world. I am obsessed with her. She doesn't know
1:26
Speaker 1: that I'm a person. But we'll get there baby steps,
1:30
Speaker 1: as they say, right, I don't think they recognize you
1:33
Speaker 1: as a person until they're literally in their adolescence, because
1:36
Speaker 1: until then, you're their servants to give to them what
1:39
Speaker 1: they want. Essentially, is what I've discovered with all the
1:42
Speaker 1: young uns pretty much. Yeah, I'm telling you probably I'm
1:48
Speaker 1: gonna say seven. Okay, I think you and I have
1:52
Speaker 1: different ideas of adolescents. And okay, am I saying that wrong?
1:57
Speaker 1: I don't. I just always thought that was like twelve thirteen,
2:00
Speaker 1: teenager years. Well, this is we're going to get hung
2:03
Speaker 1: up in in vernacular that we don't need to get
2:06
Speaker 1: into right now. But now I'm clear on what you mean. Okay,
2:08
Speaker 1: I got you. Now I'm having to question it anyway, Yes,
2:13
Speaker 1: move on. I'm excited. Judy is that her name? That's
2:16
Speaker 1: such a great name. We're doing it back a little bit. Yes,
2:20
Speaker 1: it's it's It can be turned into all kinds of
2:22
Speaker 1: cute nicknames. I call her Judy Huti. Again, she doesn't
2:25
Speaker 1: understand that I'm speaking to her. She only now just
2:28
Speaker 1: realized that she has like hands and a tongue. So
2:31
Speaker 1: we're at your baby steps. Yeah. Yeah, do you all
2:36
Speaker 1: have fun holiday plans? Uh? Well, we teld you about
2:40
Speaker 1: our kind of weirdo New Years, which is essentially staying
2:44
Speaker 1: in and wearing one's ees, watching pies. I do make
2:48
Speaker 1: like the traditional soup. You know, yes, exactly exactly. I can't.
2:58
Speaker 1: I mean, clearly it's been going so for me. So
3:02
Speaker 1: maybe I didn't get the right type of collared greens.
3:04
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if you know this, Bridget,
3:06
Speaker 1: but right before the pandemic, I really said in my
3:09
Speaker 1: New Year's resolution was to stay in more. Oh and
3:12
Speaker 1: that's the thing that I feel like I ruined everything.
3:16
Speaker 1: She placed a curse you. I'm sure I thought my
3:21
Speaker 1: first ever planner for I usually never buy a planners
3:26
Speaker 1: about my first ever in life planner, and I wrote,
3:29
Speaker 1: I wrote all kinds of goals for dream. Oh. Yeah,
3:36
Speaker 1: we had a whole episode about predicting what would happen,
3:38
Speaker 1: and we were real wrong, like the wrongest that we
3:42
Speaker 1: could be. I think we hit those essentially, it's one
3:46
Speaker 1: for the books. That episode we kind of it almost
3:50
Speaker 1: had to be an apology, like sorry, we have to
3:53
Speaker 1: protract something essentially a thing you were the conspiracy theories
4:03
Speaker 1: about five g We were right about that. We didn't
4:06
Speaker 1: know how far it would go. We just did not
4:09
Speaker 1: have the imaginations to match the reality. Uh, for myself,
4:14
Speaker 1: it is going to be a very low key, low key,
4:16
Speaker 1: I say, because we are going to partners Christmas. This
4:21
Speaker 1: is our first big deal Christmas, I guess, and I
4:26
Speaker 1: say low key because I am anxious written about it,
4:28
Speaker 1: and so I'm pretending like it's not happening. So I'm
4:31
Speaker 1: sure the day we drive there is when I'm going
4:33
Speaker 1: to have a panic attack, which is silly because they're
4:35
Speaker 1: great people, but in my head, this is a new situation.
4:39
Speaker 1: So I'm like, so we'll see what happens. You should
4:43
Speaker 1: watch a lot of holiday movies like um, The Family Stone,
4:47
Speaker 1: like like you know holiday movies where it's like, oh,
4:49
Speaker 1: they're like new partner visiting for the holidays, to sort
4:53
Speaker 1: of get get your mind right. Wait, have you seen
4:55
Speaker 1: Holiday Stone? Because it does not end, well what happened?
5:02
Speaker 1: Don't watch that one. It's gonna go much better than that.
5:04
Speaker 1: I forgot about that, You're one because it was not
5:08
Speaker 1: realistic over the top that I was like, oh my god,
5:13
Speaker 1: this is so depressing. Why am I watching those, every
5:16
Speaker 1: wrong thing has happened, and now Bridge is like, I
5:18
Speaker 1: hope that upon you I thought we were friends. That
5:23
Speaker 1: won't happen. It'll be that'll be a representation of what
5:26
Speaker 1: will what will not. Right there we go, Okay, okay,
5:31
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'll take that. That was very very funny. Also,
5:37
Speaker 1: I just want to say Bridget, thank you for complimenting
5:39
Speaker 1: my very direky Star Wars Boba Fette sweater. So it's
5:42
Speaker 1: actually a big deal because it's a gift from my
5:45
Speaker 1: older brother and he's never given me a gift in
5:48
Speaker 1: my entire life. So yeah, I know, I'm like, all right,
5:53
Speaker 1: hit the mark because he was like I knew this,
5:56
Speaker 1: this is for you. There's no way I couldn't get this.
5:59
Speaker 1: You are correct, Thank you. Yeah, it's a very antie gift.
6:04
Speaker 1: Kudos to the brother. Yes, yes, and Annie has is
6:08
Speaker 1: it now? Six five six different Star Wars Christmas waters,
6:14
Speaker 1: none of which I purchased. Um, So people do know
6:16
Speaker 1: me very well. Um. Yes, So I'm trying to get
6:20
Speaker 1: through the catalog while I can, while it's acceptable, even
6:23
Speaker 1: though it's mostly just me in my apartment. So I
6:25
Speaker 1: guess it doesn't matter. I could wear them whenever. All right,
6:29
Speaker 1: so we are also excited to discuss the topic he
6:32
Speaker 1: bought today, bridgett um. So what are we going to
6:37
Speaker 1: be discussing? It feels like, let's go. I know, It's
6:41
Speaker 1: like it's like it feels like a little bit of
6:42
Speaker 1: a gift for once. I am excited to share we
6:44
Speaker 1: have a little bit of positive news for people who
6:47
Speaker 1: have uterus is Can you imagine? That feels like all
6:50
Speaker 1: we ever get is like, oh, we're bad news, we're
6:52
Speaker 1: bad news. But actually, just yesterday, the Food and Drug
6:56
Speaker 1: Administration the FDA announced a permanent repeal of the in
7:00
Speaker 1: person dispensing requirement for I actually have the pronunciation spelled out.
7:05
Speaker 1: If I buch of this pronunciation, please don't come after me.
7:08
Speaker 1: Myth A prity zone one of the two medications used
7:12
Speaker 1: in medication abortion a k a. The abortion pill. So, uh,
7:16
Speaker 1: pretty exciting, it's a it's a I'm cautiously optimistic and
7:22
Speaker 1: pretty comfortable saying like it's a good thing. We'll discuss
7:25
Speaker 1: like why it's sort of like not the best thing,
7:28
Speaker 1: but it's definitely a step in the right direction, and
7:30
Speaker 1: so I'm comfortable, Like these days you gotta take a
7:33
Speaker 1: w however you can get it. So I'm comfortable saying
7:36
Speaker 1: this is a small win for abortion rights, which is
7:40
Speaker 1: such a yeah a sentence my brain did not know
7:43
Speaker 1: how to process. But I was looking over your outline,
7:46
Speaker 1: I was like, right, I feel the same way. I
7:50
Speaker 1: really feel maybe we've just so traumatized previously and we're
7:55
Speaker 1: all on edge that I'm like, yeah, but but what
7:59
Speaker 1: like just way eating but instead of celebrating, hey, this
8:02
Speaker 1: is good news because it is a step forward. But
8:09
Speaker 1: totally as someone who is pretty involved in the fight
8:12
Speaker 1: for abortion rights and access and reproductive justice, I know
8:15
Speaker 1: exactly that that weird feeling you're describing winds but qualified winds,
8:21
Speaker 1: and then sort of like well, and then ultimately I
8:23
Speaker 1: guess I feel that we shouldn't have to be fighting
8:26
Speaker 1: for this stuff in general, like we should. Everybody deserves
8:29
Speaker 1: to have autonomy over their own body, access to healthcare,
8:32
Speaker 1: access to abortion care if they need it. Even the
8:35
Speaker 1: conversation I feel is we shouldn't even have to be
8:38
Speaker 1: fighting for stuff like this. But you know, in the
8:41
Speaker 1: fight for abortion rights, that can be very negative, very
8:44
Speaker 1: taking many, many many steps back, and so I do
8:47
Speaker 1: think it's important to, you know, highlight when we have
8:50
Speaker 1: something that is not awful happening. And this is actually
9:08
Speaker 1: something I think I've seen it in the headlines. And
9:11
Speaker 1: I know you and I talked about it bridget a
9:14
Speaker 1: while back, several years ago, and I not I didn't
9:17
Speaker 1: really know much about the abortion pill. So can you
9:21
Speaker 1: can you tell us what it is and how it works?
9:23
Speaker 1: Absolutely so? According to Planned Parenthood, the so called abortion
9:27
Speaker 1: pill is a popular name for two different medicines used
9:30
Speaker 1: to end a pregnancy, miffor pretty zone and another one
9:35
Speaker 1: myceo pros atoll. So pregnancy needs the hormone called pro
9:39
Speaker 1: estrogen to grow normally, and miffor pretty zone blocks your
9:42
Speaker 1: protty's own pro estrogen. And so basically it's just a
9:45
Speaker 1: combination of pills that you take to induce an abortion. Yes,
9:49
Speaker 1: and I know, like you know, this conversation isn't only
9:53
Speaker 1: limited to the US, was it Ireland? Had it somewhere?
9:56
Speaker 1: Had a similar kind of conversation Scotland and you and
10:00
Speaker 1: I we did that whole episode about um the changing
10:03
Speaker 1: rules in the UK because the United States and so
10:06
Speaker 1: this is definitely a global issue and issue where like
10:09
Speaker 1: other countries and other regions, I have have different standards of
10:12
Speaker 1: the legality of how pregnant people can access this kind
10:16
Speaker 1: of medication to get the abortion care they need. Yeah,
10:19
Speaker 1: And one of the things that we talked about in
10:21
Speaker 1: that episode was also telemedicine UM and being able to
10:27
Speaker 1: get it and like from the comfort of your own home,
10:28
Speaker 1: and how important that was for a lot of people
10:31
Speaker 1: for this UM. So, can you share the history of
10:35
Speaker 1: this kind of abortion care via telemedicine in the US? Totally?
10:40
Speaker 1: So telemedicine if you don't know what that is, it's
10:42
Speaker 1: basically when you access your doctor through the internet, through
10:45
Speaker 1: your phone through video conferencing. That's kind of like the
10:48
Speaker 1: thing for me that makes this kind of a tech
10:50
Speaker 1: story is that people have been relying on that kind
10:54
Speaker 1: of technology enabled healthcare for a really long time. So
10:57
Speaker 1: abortion via telemedicine has been available in the US. It's
11:00
Speaker 1: around two thousand and eight when the first formal program began.
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Speaker 1: An eye love, a patient and one clinic can confer
11:06
Speaker 1: via video conference with a doctor in another clinic and
11:08
Speaker 1: then they would get their pills to induce an abortion.
11:11
Speaker 1: And that video conferencing element that satisfied a federal requirement
11:15
Speaker 1: that a doctor had to dispense the medication to induce
11:19
Speaker 1: an abortion in a clinic office or hospital. And so
11:22
Speaker 1: that was a real instance where technology bridged that gap.
11:26
Speaker 1: That's satisfied this federal requirement that a doctor dispense I'm
11:31
Speaker 1: using quotes around that this medication. And so there are
11:34
Speaker 1: so many reasons why that would be a huge deal
11:37
Speaker 1: for people who are pregnant or really anybody looking for
11:40
Speaker 1: any kind of healthcare, because if you're someone who lives
11:42
Speaker 1: in a rural community or a remote community, you can't
11:44
Speaker 1: always get to a clinic, maybe there's not one close.
11:47
Speaker 1: Let's say you don't have a car. Let's say you're
11:49
Speaker 1: just a busy person in a lot on your plate
11:51
Speaker 1: and you can't physically go see a doctor. Telemedicine really
11:56
Speaker 1: is this thing that can really bridge that gap and
11:59
Speaker 1: bring the healthcare that folks need right into their homes.
12:02
Speaker 1: And so huge, huge deal. Unfortunately, opponents responded pretty quickly,
12:06
Speaker 1: prohibiting abortion via telemedicine in twenty states. In the US,
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Speaker 1: the FDA regulates medication abortion under a set of rules
12:14
Speaker 1: called the Risk Evaluation and Medication Strategy or r e
12:18
Speaker 1: m S, which determines how and which doctors can provide
12:21
Speaker 1: abortion toils to patients. There was this really interesting paper
12:24
Speaker 1: called sixteen years of over Regulation, Time to Unburden my
12:28
Speaker 1: bras published in twenty seventeen in the New England Journal
12:31
Speaker 1: of Medicine. UM. We're leading clinicians and public health experts
12:34
Speaker 1: argued that the FDA restrictions were medically unnecessary, and a
12:38
Speaker 1: c l U attorneys noted that the leading medical groups,
12:41
Speaker 1: including the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, support making
12:45
Speaker 1: abortion bills available by prescription at pharmacies. UM. And here's
12:48
Speaker 1: a really good quote from one of the doctors. He says,
12:50
Speaker 1: overwhelming medical evidence and decades of clinical experience show medication
12:54
Speaker 1: abortion to be a safe and effective method to end pregnancy.
12:57
Speaker 1: There are simply no medical justifications these restrictions, and they
13:01
Speaker 1: create a needless and harmful burden for women seeking in
13:03
Speaker 1: this care. And I think that really sums up I
13:07
Speaker 1: feel what this conversation is about. It's about what happens
13:10
Speaker 1: when there are needless and undo burdens that separate people
13:14
Speaker 1: from the medical care and including abortion care that they
13:17
Speaker 1: need right and and one of the things that happens
13:21
Speaker 1: is that people who who need an abortion, who want
13:26
Speaker 1: an abortion resort to if they have these undue burdens.
13:30
Speaker 1: Are these obstacles two less than reliable, perhaps less than safe,
13:36
Speaker 1: like online places where they can get these medications? Right, Yeah,
13:41
Speaker 1: so this actually really makes me sad. It's one of
13:43
Speaker 1: those things where I feel again, these burdens make people
13:48
Speaker 1: resort to things that are not always safe. In a
13:52
Speaker 1: study called Exploring the Feasibility of Obtaining mithripritizone and me
13:57
Speaker 1: so Protosol from the Internet, Alizabeth Raymond, a senior medical
14:01
Speaker 1: associate at the research organization Genuity, googled phrases like by
14:05
Speaker 1: abortion pills online, and the researchers ended up ordering eighteen
14:09
Speaker 1: of the pill combinations from sixteen different websites, none of
14:12
Speaker 1: which required a prescription. The pills usually came from India,
14:15
Speaker 1: which there is a large generic drug industry there, and
14:18
Speaker 1: the shipments usually call sur around like a hundred and ten,
14:20
Speaker 1: three and sixty dollars and they took about three days
14:24
Speaker 1: to three weeks to arrive. And so basically they found
14:27
Speaker 1: that these products they were getting when they would they
14:30
Speaker 1: would google things like abortion pills online, we're just kind
14:33
Speaker 1: of sketchy. They would have typos that would be language
14:36
Speaker 1: mistranslations in the in the packages. UM. In one instance,
14:40
Speaker 1: the pills arrived with the blister packs had been broken,
14:43
Speaker 1: and the researchers think that was done intentionally because they
14:46
Speaker 1: didn't want someone to be like, oh, I think there's
14:48
Speaker 1: abortion pills in this package, so they would break the
14:51
Speaker 1: blister packs those things that keep pills from cracking UM
14:54
Speaker 1: before sending them. And even more worryingly, none of these
14:58
Speaker 1: pills came with in auctions for use and so just
15:01
Speaker 1: like very sketchy, but you can see the kinds of
15:04
Speaker 1: things that people resort to when these burdens are put
15:08
Speaker 1: in place to keep them from the abortion care that
15:10
Speaker 1: they need. Right, I feel like this is just talking
15:13
Speaker 1: in a different way of what was happening in the
15:16
Speaker 1: early pre row versus weight in trying to find solutions
15:21
Speaker 1: the best they can, especially for those who can't afford
15:25
Speaker 1: access in any way at all. Just not being able
15:28
Speaker 1: to pay a hundred dollars I'm assuming in a lot
15:32
Speaker 1: of things, when you start realizing that price is too
15:34
Speaker 1: good to be true, it probably is. And when we
15:38
Speaker 1: talk about especially for healthcare and reproductive care, we already know, yeah,
15:43
Speaker 1: because people want this to fail, that people are not
15:47
Speaker 1: going to look and try to stop these these really
15:49
Speaker 1: sketchy situations, which is infuriating because that has put so
15:53
Speaker 1: many people with us in danger, and so many people
15:55
Speaker 1: who are in a place that they cannot go to doctors,
15:59
Speaker 1: they cannot even award tell in medicine, even though that's
16:01
Speaker 1: a better access, thank goodness, it's a step up. But
16:04
Speaker 1: we have things like kind amendment that prevents even trying
16:07
Speaker 1: to access it for those who can't afford these types
16:10
Speaker 1: of solutions that should already been existing. As you had
16:12
Speaker 1: said earlier, Oh absolutely, You've reminded me of one of
16:14
Speaker 1: my favorite quotes from one of my idols, Shortly Chisholm.
16:18
Speaker 1: She says, no matter what men think, abortion is the
16:20
Speaker 1: fact of life. Women have always had them. They always
16:23
Speaker 1: have and they always will. Are they going to have
16:25
Speaker 1: good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be
16:27
Speaker 1: reserved for the rich or the poor? Women go to quacks?
16:29
Speaker 1: And I feel like that really sums it up. You know,
16:32
Speaker 1: this idea that when you know, Shortly chis Almo was
16:35
Speaker 1: talking about this in the seventies, and here we are
16:37
Speaker 1: in still having this conversation about whether or not people
16:42
Speaker 1: who don't have access or influence or financial means. Are
16:46
Speaker 1: we going to say that it's okay for them to
16:49
Speaker 1: have to access abortion care through sketchy means, via quacks,
16:54
Speaker 1: via like pills that maybe aren't super you know, on
16:57
Speaker 1: the level. And I think the answer should be no.
16:59
Speaker 1: Everybody does deserves medical care. Everybody deserves abortion care if
17:03
Speaker 1: that's what they need. And it makes me so sad that,
17:05
Speaker 1: just like you said, it's kind of an updated version
17:09
Speaker 1: of the same conversation we've been having since the sixties
17:12
Speaker 1: and seventies, and it's so depressing in that regards here
17:15
Speaker 1: to put a dark cloud everything you can always count
17:18
Speaker 1: on you. I feel like we need a sound effect
17:20
Speaker 1: like the More you Know, But it's like Samantha's dark cloud.
17:23
Speaker 1: I think you should be like d work on that later.
17:29
Speaker 1: This also reminds me of because a lot of what
17:31
Speaker 1: you talk about, Bridget has to do with, yes, the
17:34
Speaker 1: Internet and misinformation and disinformation. And I know we've had
17:37
Speaker 1: conversations around CPCs or crisis pregnancy centers and how when
17:40
Speaker 1: you'll type you know, where do I get in abortion?
17:42
Speaker 1: A lot of times the results will be like the
17:44
Speaker 1: first results will be um d C PCs, and I
17:47
Speaker 1: can just imagine for people trying to get access to
17:51
Speaker 1: to this medication, the same kind of issue there, and
17:54
Speaker 1: then on top of that people have been arrested. Correct. Oh, absolutely,
18:01
Speaker 1: so the s I a legal team, a group of
18:03
Speaker 1: lawyers who specialized in people who have induced their own abortions,
18:07
Speaker 1: knows of twenty one people who have been arrested or
18:09
Speaker 1: prosecuted for ending their pregnancies outside of this medical setting
18:12
Speaker 1: that was required, you know, in terms of medication abortion
18:16
Speaker 1: or helping someone else do it. Um. This actually might
18:19
Speaker 1: even be undercounted since they rely on news reports such
18:22
Speaker 1: fact these cases. The charges brought against people who self
18:24
Speaker 1: abord can range from child abuse, the abuse of a corpse,
18:26
Speaker 1: or failure to report death. Now, to be clear, none
18:29
Speaker 1: of the women were prosecuted for buying abortion pills specifically,
18:32
Speaker 1: but they note that buying pills online or even googling
18:36
Speaker 1: phrases like buy abortion pills online, can leave a paper
18:39
Speaker 1: trail that can be used as evidence against them in
18:41
Speaker 1: a trial. And so this is not something that is
18:45
Speaker 1: abstract like we in this country, people have been prosecuted
18:50
Speaker 1: for trying to induce abortions on their own via pills
18:54
Speaker 1: they get online. UM. A famous case in twenty fifteen,
18:57
Speaker 1: Indiana woman named Pervy Patel was sentenced to twenty years
19:00
Speaker 1: in prison her feet aside after she allegedly used abortion
19:03
Speaker 1: pills that she ordered online. Prosecutors claimed that her fetus
19:06
Speaker 1: had been quote born alive and that she allowed it
19:10
Speaker 1: to die, but later her conviction was overturned on appeal.
19:13
Speaker 1: So again we are talking about very real circumstances where
19:18
Speaker 1: this this right to access abortion care via pills via
19:23
Speaker 1: tele medicine online has been really a fraud thing that
19:28
Speaker 1: people have been prosecuted for trying to do. And you know,
19:32
Speaker 1: we have all of these instances where people have subjected
19:35
Speaker 1: themselves to unsafe, sketchy abortion pills because of the undue
19:41
Speaker 1: burdens that have been put in place to prevent them
19:44
Speaker 1: from getting access to the care they need. The case
19:47
Speaker 1: for the woman in Indiana, even though it's not related,
19:50
Speaker 1: kind of brings back the memories of what just happened
19:53
Speaker 1: in Alabama recently with a woman who lost the fetus
19:56
Speaker 1: wanting to have this baby, not trying to have an abortion,
20:00
Speaker 1: but got prosecuted with those same types of charges for
20:04
Speaker 1: neglect of a fetus. And I'm like, we all were
20:07
Speaker 1: horrified and had it not been publicized, she probably would
20:11
Speaker 1: still have remained in jail or prison. And it also
20:14
Speaker 1: takes me to what's happening in Texas as the Supreme
20:17
Speaker 1: Court is now allowing the bounty law. That's what I'm
20:19
Speaker 1: calling it. I know that's not what it's actually called
20:22
Speaker 1: for it to go. And I'm wondering how this is
20:24
Speaker 1: going to affect, uh, if people are trying to access
20:27
Speaker 1: abortion pills, and then we are you already said I
20:29
Speaker 1: believe that twenty states are not allowing for this type
20:32
Speaker 1: of access in anyway. So I'm guessing Texas is one
20:36
Speaker 1: of those. I'm on SI guessing Georgia is to that.
20:38
Speaker 1: How this is going to affect even more so in
20:41
Speaker 1: trying to prosecute uh, those with yours or those who
20:45
Speaker 1: are helping trying to get access at all. Yeah, it's
20:47
Speaker 1: a great question, and I think it really underscores just
20:50
Speaker 1: what scary dire times we are in. You know, I
20:55
Speaker 1: remember talking to my mom about, you know, when she
20:58
Speaker 1: was coming of age, protesting for you know, abortion on
21:03
Speaker 1: her campus, trying to get access to birth control pills,
21:06
Speaker 1: and she once told me she was like, oh, when
21:08
Speaker 1: I was doing all of that back then, I knew
21:11
Speaker 1: at least when I had a daughter, she wouldn't have
21:14
Speaker 1: to sort of fight these same fights, that these fights
21:16
Speaker 1: would be over and done with at the time my
21:18
Speaker 1: daughter was here, well talk about, you know, predictions that
21:22
Speaker 1: didn't come true. She was wrong. Here I am her
21:25
Speaker 1: adult daughter, still having to deal with this kind of stuff.
21:28
Speaker 1: And so we are in a really scary time for
21:30
Speaker 1: abortion access for anybody who cares about abortion access, and
21:35
Speaker 1: that should really be everybody, everybody, regardless of gender, should
21:38
Speaker 1: care about this. And so I agree with you. I
21:41
Speaker 1: I think that sometimes I'll see, like I think it
21:44
Speaker 1: was Chris Hayes who tweeted something, and I like Chris Hayes,
21:47
Speaker 1: and I'm not I'm not trying to like get down
21:48
Speaker 1: on him, but he tweeted about I think the Texas
21:51
Speaker 1: abortion bill, like, oh, I think that we're going to
21:54
Speaker 1: see miscarriages being criminalized next. And it's like, I hate
21:57
Speaker 1: to break it to you, Chris Hayes, but where there happening.
22:02
Speaker 1: You know, this is exactly that same level of like,
22:05
Speaker 1: oh my god, we're still fighting for access, We're still
22:08
Speaker 1: trying to have this conversation about bodily autonomy for those
22:12
Speaker 1: with uterus is those who are non binary, like trying
22:15
Speaker 1: to figure out how to even have rights at all.
22:18
Speaker 1: Like honestly, seeing the news as I talked about it earlier,
22:23
Speaker 1: I was like, but but waiting for you know, they
22:26
Speaker 1: had to drop waiting for Oh no, it's gonna go
22:28
Speaker 1: fall apart. I'm trying to figure out how even how
22:31
Speaker 1: the FDA even came to this point, How did we
22:33
Speaker 1: get here, which is amazing, but how well. I actually
22:37
Speaker 1: have an answer for you, which is like, as much
22:39
Speaker 1: as I hated COVID, we kind of have COVID to
22:43
Speaker 1: thank for this important change. And so this new change,
22:46
Speaker 1: to be clear, um, it's not going to impact everyone
22:49
Speaker 1: on every state, like you said, but the reason why
22:51
Speaker 1: we have it is because of COVID restrictions. And so,
22:54
Speaker 1: during the pandemic, medical groups filed a lawsuit asking that
22:57
Speaker 1: the in person dispensing requirement be left did because the
23:00
Speaker 1: pandemic meant that patients were faced with a greater risk
23:03
Speaker 1: of being infected um with coronavirus if they were visiting
23:07
Speaker 1: clinics in person to get pills, and so a judge
23:09
Speaker 1: granted that request this that summer, but after a challenge
23:13
Speaker 1: by the Trump administration. Of course, the Supreme Court reinstated
23:16
Speaker 1: the restriction. In March, medical organizations tried again right into
23:20
Speaker 1: President bid An end Vice President Harris. In April, the
23:22
Speaker 1: FDA decided not to enforce the in person requirement for
23:25
Speaker 1: the duration of the pandemic and allowed, uh, these pills
23:28
Speaker 1: to be mailed to folks. And again yesterday, the big
23:31
Speaker 1: decision is that that change, which at that point was temporary,
23:34
Speaker 1: is going to be made permanent. And so, you know,
23:38
Speaker 1: the pandemic. I hate it, I hate it obviously, but
23:41
Speaker 1: this is one of those things where I think that
23:43
Speaker 1: the people who were fighting for these regulars this regulation
23:45
Speaker 1: change really saw a way to be like, you know,
23:48
Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense to ask people to go in
23:51
Speaker 1: person to get the abortion care they need, particularly during
23:54
Speaker 1: a pandemic, and then being like and also, shouldn't we
23:57
Speaker 1: just end it all together? You know, I really appreciate
24:00
Speaker 1: it them kind of like the strategy of this, yeah, yeah,
24:04
Speaker 1: you know, we gotta find your like you said, your
24:06
Speaker 1: winds and your chances where you can and if it's
24:09
Speaker 1: a pandemic, well, so could you go into just a
24:28
Speaker 1: bit more like what exactly this this ruling is means
24:32
Speaker 1: in terms of like, yeah, the states and how how
24:37
Speaker 1: it's like specifically impacting different states and just what does
24:41
Speaker 1: it all mean virg Totally, I want to make clear that,
24:45
Speaker 1: like it is important to know that this will not
24:47
Speaker 1: impact everyone in every state. As you said, in nineteen
24:50
Speaker 1: states and mostly in the South and the Midwest, telemedicine
24:53
Speaker 1: visits for abortion are banned, and so that really you know,
24:57
Speaker 1: there's really no change in those states. And and and then
25:01
Speaker 1: you know because everything is awful, and that because you know,
25:05
Speaker 1: the powers that be are constantly chipping away at our
25:08
Speaker 1: riots and are our access to abortion care. Um, we
25:11
Speaker 1: do believe that conservative states are expected to pass other
25:15
Speaker 1: laws to further curtail the access to abortion pills. And
25:18
Speaker 1: so even though again I feel like this is a win,
25:21
Speaker 1: I want to be clear that is not a win
25:23
Speaker 1: that impacts everybody. And so this means that people who
25:25
Speaker 1: live in states that do not allow telemedicine for abortion
25:28
Speaker 1: must travel to a state that does, although and this
25:31
Speaker 1: is kind of a weird point, they do not have
25:34
Speaker 1: to visit a clinic. They may be in any location
25:37
Speaker 1: within that state for their telehealth visit, even inside of
25:41
Speaker 1: a car. They may receive pills at any address in
25:44
Speaker 1: that state. So again, it just seems like such a
25:48
Speaker 1: weird obviously both burden to be like, well, if you're
25:52
Speaker 1: in this state that does not allow for telemedicine appointments
25:56
Speaker 1: for abortion pills, you can't get them. But if you
25:58
Speaker 1: drive to a state does allow them, you're going to
26:02
Speaker 1: sit in the Wendy's parking lot and have a telemedicine
26:04
Speaker 1: and visit over your phone in your car, and then
26:07
Speaker 1: that's all good. That again, it just seems like it's
26:10
Speaker 1: really reveals that this is about putting ridiculous burdens and
26:14
Speaker 1: barriers to prevent people from getting the abortion care they need.
26:17
Speaker 1: Like what if you don't have a car, What if
26:20
Speaker 1: you don't have the financial means to drive to another state,
26:23
Speaker 1: what if you have to work or already have kids
26:26
Speaker 1: and don't really have the ability to just like take
26:28
Speaker 1: a trip like this. It seems like such an obvious
26:31
Speaker 1: way to just prevent people from getting the care they need.
26:34
Speaker 1: And like, to me, it's just like my bullsh alarm
26:37
Speaker 1: goes off, like this is clearly just like let's just
26:40
Speaker 1: make it hard for people to get the care they need. Yeah,
26:43
Speaker 1: I mean, this is such a like a much more
26:45
Speaker 1: superficial problem but it reminds me of when I was
26:48
Speaker 1: a kid. Um we would drive to the border of
26:51
Speaker 1: Alabama and where I'm located in Georgia, and we'd right
26:55
Speaker 1: in the border. They'd be all these fireworks. So I
26:58
Speaker 1: knew you were gonna say that we would had all
27:00
Speaker 1: these fireworks, and but if they're illegal in Georgia, my
27:03
Speaker 1: parents would be like, you can't sell them, but we
27:05
Speaker 1: can shoot them off. I'm like, that makes no sense
27:07
Speaker 1: to me, That's absolutely right. I was thinking the same
27:12
Speaker 1: thing with like alcohol cells, you know, within the Southern States,
27:15
Speaker 1: like they were very restrictive up unto a certain point,
27:18
Speaker 1: so people would cross borders to go get alcohol. So
27:21
Speaker 1: for a long time, Georgia couldn't sell it on Sundays,
27:24
Speaker 1: so people would go to Alabama like that would have
27:27
Speaker 1: access to it. Again, this is very like, less harmful
27:32
Speaker 1: than any o the stuff, but it is also very
27:35
Speaker 1: reminiscent of the fact that they are shutting down clinics
27:38
Speaker 1: in certain states and so therefore we have to access
27:40
Speaker 1: clinics maybe two or three states away in general, And honestly,
27:44
Speaker 1: we've been watching what's happening with Poland as well as
27:47
Speaker 1: they have had one of the harshest restrictions and bands
27:50
Speaker 1: um in the world as well, and it's fairly new
27:52
Speaker 1: and them talking about the fact that they're having to
27:54
Speaker 1: do essentially underground networks to get access to pills and
27:58
Speaker 1: to any type of reproductive help access by traveling across
28:03
Speaker 1: country border lines in order to get access. And yeah,
28:06
Speaker 1: that's exactly what's happening in that level of state wise
28:10
Speaker 1: for us. That yes, for some of these and they're
28:13
Speaker 1: gonna make it so difficult that you will you will
28:16
Speaker 1: have to plan as if, like you have to be
28:18
Speaker 1: away for a week to get a pill um in
28:21
Speaker 1: order to get any kind of access, and if you
28:23
Speaker 1: can't afford it, sorry, then you're not allowed it. Yeah,
28:27
Speaker 1: And so just like what's happening in Poland, we're seeing
28:29
Speaker 1: some a bit of that here in the United States.
28:30
Speaker 1: So states like California and New York states where you
28:33
Speaker 1: can access abortion pills via telemedicine, they've taken steps in
28:36
Speaker 1: recent years to further solidify access to abortion and they're
28:39
Speaker 1: expected to increase the availability of telemedicine for abortion pills,
28:43
Speaker 1: specifically to provide opportunities for folks and other states with
28:47
Speaker 1: these kinds of restrictions to obtain abortion pills by traveling
28:50
Speaker 1: to their state to get them. And so we are
28:53
Speaker 1: seeing this thing where other states that allow this are
28:56
Speaker 1: probably going to be stepping up so that people specifically
28:59
Speaker 1: so that pole who live in states that you know,
29:01
Speaker 1: they can't access this can get them. And so it
29:04
Speaker 1: is it is a little bit like that. And you know,
29:07
Speaker 1: even though this is a win, we shouldn't have to
29:09
Speaker 1: be doing any of this just to get abortion care.
29:12
Speaker 1: Like nobody should have to jump through ridiculous hoops to
29:15
Speaker 1: get medical care that they need, and so this is
29:17
Speaker 1: no different. And so I think of this as a win,
29:19
Speaker 1: but I just I have to keep harping on that
29:21
Speaker 1: that we shouldn't have to be fighting this way and
29:25
Speaker 1: like celebrating these sort of like incremental tooth and nail
29:28
Speaker 1: winds for something that like should just be a right
29:31
Speaker 1: that everybody should have. Yeah, and these pill based abortions
29:36
Speaker 1: are actually pretty common, right, That's right, And so especially
29:41
Speaker 1: in the pandemic. The tele Abortion Project, which is a
29:43
Speaker 1: research program authorized by the FDA to conduct tele medicine
29:47
Speaker 1: appointments and male pills, has heard from many people and
29:50
Speaker 1: they're saying that they have really seen from folks using
29:54
Speaker 1: their services, that people are really stepping up the amount
29:57
Speaker 1: that they are seeking these kinds of services since the pandemic.
30:00
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Raymond. She said that of the two thousand and
30:03
Speaker 1: eighties three abortions provided under the program between July October one,
30:08
Speaker 1: more than a third, seven hundred and fifteen, occurred during
30:11
Speaker 1: the pandemic, and that really mirrors with the CDC is found.
30:14
Speaker 1: The CDC found in twenty in some states, including Indiana, Kansas,
30:18
Speaker 1: and Minnesota, the methodic pill based abortions accounted for the
30:21
Speaker 1: majority of abortions according to state Health Department records, and
30:25
Speaker 1: the CDC also found that seventy of abortions occurred before
30:29
Speaker 1: the ten weeks gestation period, suggesting that there are many, many,
30:33
Speaker 1: many more people who would probably choose abortion pills over
30:36
Speaker 1: an in clinic procedure if they could um Another great resource,
30:39
Speaker 1: Abortion on Demand, which is an online platform that provides
30:42
Speaker 1: position supported medication. Abortion Care Online, said that they have
30:45
Speaker 1: seen a lot of growing interests in pill based abortions
30:48
Speaker 1: since the pandemic as well, and so it makes complete
30:51
Speaker 1: sense that at a time when it's like not safe
30:53
Speaker 1: to leave your house, that people would be turning to
30:56
Speaker 1: the internet to get the kind of care that they need,
30:59
Speaker 1: and even beyond abortion. You know, I when the pandemic started,
31:03
Speaker 1: actually very early into the pandemic, This is like a
31:05
Speaker 1: little bit embarrassing. I had a assist on my butt
31:09
Speaker 1: cheek and my doctor had switched to telemedicine only, and
31:14
Speaker 1: I remember thinking like, well, certainly she's not gonna want
31:17
Speaker 1: to like have me take down my pants and show
31:19
Speaker 1: her my butt cheek over you know, face time. And
31:23
Speaker 1: that's exactly what I did, and I get the care
31:25
Speaker 1: that I needed. And so obviously we should not be
31:29
Speaker 1: putting unfair barriers in place when I think that the
31:33
Speaker 1: pandemic really showed how important it is to use the
31:36
Speaker 1: technology that we have to access healthcare right. And I
31:39
Speaker 1: know there are stories you can find out. There are
31:42
Speaker 1: people who said, like why it was so important to
31:44
Speaker 1: them and why they wanted to be in like they're
31:46
Speaker 1: kind of you know, home or where they felt comfortable
31:48
Speaker 1: when they did this. Um. But also unfortunately a lot
31:53
Speaker 1: of times going to an abortion clinic can also not
31:55
Speaker 1: feel safe because there can be people protesting outside and
31:59
Speaker 1: that makes it much more stressful experience. And and speaking
32:04
Speaker 1: of I'm sure, um not everyone was happy about about
32:10
Speaker 1: this news. Oh, of course not so. Anti choice groups
32:14
Speaker 1: were not happy about this announcement. The Susan B. Anthony
32:16
Speaker 1: Foundation said the Biden administration today moved to weaken the
32:19
Speaker 1: long standing federal safety regulations against mail order abortion drugs,
32:23
Speaker 1: designed to protect women from serious health risks and potential abuse.
32:27
Speaker 1: So here's my question about this. First of all, how
32:29
Speaker 1: and why would someone be abusing these abortion pills. It's
32:32
Speaker 1: not like they like, take it from me. They do
32:34
Speaker 1: not get you high, the side effects that you might
32:37
Speaker 1: have or like mild nausea. I don't really think that
32:40
Speaker 1: people are like, oh, I can't wait to get these
32:42
Speaker 1: drugs to induce mild nausea. It's gonna be a wild time.
32:46
Speaker 1: Can't wait to abuse them. So already have some questions there,
32:50
Speaker 1: and then doctors make it clear that pill based abortions
32:54
Speaker 1: are safe. A research program at the FDA found that
32:58
Speaker 1: of the one thousand, one fifties seven abortions that occurred
33:01
Speaker 1: through the program between September, we're completed without requiring any
33:06
Speaker 1: follow up procedure, patients made seventy visits to emergency rooms
33:10
Speaker 1: or urgent care centers, with ten instances of serious complications
33:13
Speaker 1: to study reported, and so that's really like pretty good
33:17
Speaker 1: in terms of, you know, the safety of this, Like
33:19
Speaker 1: doctors have made it very clear that pill based abortions
33:22
Speaker 1: are not unsafe and telemedicine abortions are safe for all
33:26
Speaker 1: the reasons that you've just said. Any they can be
33:28
Speaker 1: more convenient. Maybe you don't want to go to an
33:30
Speaker 1: abortion clinic where there's going to be people shouting at
33:33
Speaker 1: you when you're already stressed. Uh, maybe you have to work,
33:36
Speaker 1: or maybe you can't afford to get to a clinic,
33:37
Speaker 1: or like, there are so many reasons why someone would
33:40
Speaker 1: choose to you know, access the care they need through telemedicine,
33:45
Speaker 1: and it's there's not really a lot of reasons why
33:48
Speaker 1: we are regulating it in this way. And one thing
33:50
Speaker 1: I also want to point out is that this change
33:52
Speaker 1: is obviously, like very long overdue, especially when you consider
33:56
Speaker 1: that out of the twenty different prescription medications currently regulated
34:00
Speaker 1: by the FDA, these abortion bills are the only one.
34:04
Speaker 1: The only one the f d A previously required to
34:07
Speaker 1: be dispensed in person but permitted patience to self administer.
34:11
Speaker 1: And so that really, I mean, like, of all of
34:14
Speaker 1: these medications, this like why is this the only one
34:18
Speaker 1: that had this unfair burden to access. This is one
34:22
Speaker 1: of the only medications that are given to people with
34:24
Speaker 1: uteruses and those who need reproductive health like essentially, this
34:29
Speaker 1: is why we know these answers, and I find that
34:32
Speaker 1: fascinating because as we're looking for the future, and of course,
34:37
Speaker 1: I think part of the reason and any and I
34:39
Speaker 1: are both like hesitant in celebrating because we are in
34:41
Speaker 1: Georgia run by current Governor Brian kimp who has absolutely
34:46
Speaker 1: put into place every restriction that you can think of
34:48
Speaker 1: when it comes to accessing any kind of health care
34:51
Speaker 1: in general. And I say that very loudly, as he
34:53
Speaker 1: is threatening to shut down any connections with federal assistance
34:57
Speaker 1: when it comes to coverage in the state at this
34:59
Speaker 1: point in time. And I think one of the things
35:02
Speaker 1: that we are talking about and trying to be very
35:04
Speaker 1: loud about, is that these groups are not focusing on
35:07
Speaker 1: the women. Obviously, it is a literal fight about what
35:10
Speaker 1: is moral in their eyes, and for a Bible belt
35:14
Speaker 1: area of such as Georgia, it is a constant battle
35:17
Speaker 1: trying to see how to combat uh these really generalized,
35:23
Speaker 1: slash false narratives of the harming women as if they're
35:27
Speaker 1: truly trying to save women, what is actually they're trying
35:30
Speaker 1: to prevent women to get good access and a good
35:35
Speaker 1: health care at all. So it's kind of one of
35:37
Speaker 1: those moments of like how And I guess honestly, the
35:41
Speaker 1: pandemic has shown a lot of light about the fact
35:44
Speaker 1: that when it comes to morality and conspiracies, they don't
35:50
Speaker 1: care if it's from science. They don't care about the truth,
35:56
Speaker 1: as we have learned, um, and I find it interesting
35:59
Speaker 1: that as we are trying to focus on this, what
36:02
Speaker 1: what are some ways that we can maybe uh advocate
36:07
Speaker 1: for ourselves, for people like Annie and I who are
36:09
Speaker 1: stuck in Georgia right now, for more access to these things.
36:13
Speaker 1: Oh what a good question. I mean, first of all,
36:15
Speaker 1: I just have to honor what you just said, because
36:19
Speaker 1: we are at a time where it is scary and
36:23
Speaker 1: the threat is real. Anybody who told you like, oh,
36:25
Speaker 1: they're not going to overturn row, like you'll be fine,
36:28
Speaker 1: Like we're not going to go backward, they were incorrect.
36:31
Speaker 1: They were telling you something that wasn't true. And I
36:33
Speaker 1: I I'm sorry to have to say that, but here's
36:37
Speaker 1: here's the reality of where we are and it's it's
36:39
Speaker 1: very real and it's very scary, and I completely understand
36:44
Speaker 1: the urge to be like, well, this is happening. It's inevitable.
36:48
Speaker 1: Our rights are going to be rolled back. Women are
36:51
Speaker 1: going to die, people are going to die. This is
36:53
Speaker 1: going to be bad. Anybody who's feeling that that exhaustion
36:57
Speaker 1: and malaise, I'm with you. I get it. All I
37:00
Speaker 1: can say is that now is not the time to retreat.
37:04
Speaker 1: Now is the time to dig in. And so I
37:06
Speaker 1: have to really lift up and amplify all the amazing
37:10
Speaker 1: people who are doing the work on the ground of
37:12
Speaker 1: protecting abortion access. I want to shout out a few
37:15
Speaker 1: people right now. My colleague at Ultra Violet Sonia Spoo,
37:18
Speaker 1: who is incredible. Um, my friend Renee, who is doing
37:21
Speaker 1: a lot of work around abortion storytelling and just like
37:23
Speaker 1: helping people understand how many different people are impacted by
37:26
Speaker 1: abortion care and need abortions, and like someone that you
37:30
Speaker 1: love has had an abortion. And then if you're looking
37:32
Speaker 1: like what can I do? Absolutely, now is the time
37:36
Speaker 1: to be supporting abortion funds around the country. If you've
37:38
Speaker 1: got a local abortion fund in your and your community,
37:41
Speaker 1: throw them some money. If you've got some extra money.
37:42
Speaker 1: You can go to abortion Funds dot org and find out.
37:45
Speaker 1: You know, people are doing a lot of organizing of
37:48
Speaker 1: making sure that people can still get the access to
37:50
Speaker 1: care that they need, So definitely support those folks. Also
37:53
Speaker 1: urge your lawmaker to support the Women's Health Protection Act.
37:57
Speaker 1: You can go to we Are Ultra Violet dot org
37:59
Speaker 1: and find our petition demanding the Women's Health Protection Act
38:02
Speaker 1: be passed because we need Now is the time that
38:06
Speaker 1: we need to be fighting with all that we've got.
38:08
Speaker 1: I know it is scary, I know it's hard. I
38:10
Speaker 1: know we've all been through a lot, but now is
38:12
Speaker 1: the time to really dig in. And I think, like, like,
38:17
Speaker 1: one of the things that really gives me hope in
38:18
Speaker 1: this fight are things like abortion care networks, are things
38:22
Speaker 1: like this, individuals doing what they can, and so I
38:25
Speaker 1: know that we got us are. The government might always
38:28
Speaker 1: not always have our back, our lefted officials might not
38:30
Speaker 1: always have our back, but we have our own backs.
38:32
Speaker 1: And so this fight is hard and long, but I
38:35
Speaker 1: know I know that we got we got each other,
38:37
Speaker 1: and so that's the one thing that really gives me hope.
38:40
Speaker 1: So Will said, I think I needed it, because yes,
38:44
Speaker 1: I've been very We all are very concerned and worried.
38:49
Speaker 1: But that was a nice a nice vote on this
38:53
Speaker 1: our last recording with you one and some excellent advice
38:58
Speaker 1: as always, hanging there, Yes, hanging there, we can do this.
39:04
Speaker 1: We could do this. Low key there. That's that's what
39:14
Speaker 1: I call you, Samantha Loki. Yes, yes, well, thank you
39:22
Speaker 1: as always Bridget for joining us, UM and bringing this topic.
39:26
Speaker 1: It is always such a delight to have you have fun.
39:30
Speaker 1: You're about to leave for your your weirdo Christmas. Correct,
39:33
Speaker 1: that's right. In a matter of hours, I will be
39:36
Speaker 1: wearing a fur hat like probably pretty drunk in the wood.
39:43
Speaker 1: It's important in this whole conversation. Yes, yes, have a
39:49
Speaker 1: lovely time. Um. Where can the listeners find you? Well,
39:53
Speaker 1: you can find me all over the web. I'm at
39:55
Speaker 1: Bridget Marie on Twitter and at Bridget Marie in DC
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Speaker 1: on Instagram. Please follow me. I'm trying to get my
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Speaker 1: followers up, hope. Please follow, and you can follow me
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Speaker 1: on my I Heart Radio podcast. There are no girls
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Speaker 1: on the internet where we have all kinds of interesting
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Speaker 1: conversations about culture and technology and gender and race and
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Speaker 1: the internet. So please please check it out. Yes, go
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Speaker 1: check it out. It is fantastic and as always, if
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Speaker 1: you want to contact us, you can our email Stefan
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Speaker 1: your mom Stuff I hurt me dot com. You can
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Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at Momstuff podcast or Instagram and
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Speaker 1: Stuff I Never Told You. Thanks as always start super
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Speaker 1: producer Christina, thank you and thanks you for listening Stuff
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Speaker 1: Whenever Told You his production by Heart Radio one podcast
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Speaker 1: on my Heart Radio is The Day I Hear Radio,
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Speaker 1: app Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite ships.