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Re-Box ing HR (what all SMEs need to know!) · Mental Health Matters

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to Mental Health Matters.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Audrey Tang, I'm a chartered psychologist, and this is the show where I talk to experts in their field about all things mental health and well-being.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: But there are no quick fixes, there are no hot takes.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: We really focus on up to the minute advice, support, and intervention.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: However, we are no substitute for a professional.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: So if you do need a professional, this is for educational purposes, please seek help if you want it.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Today's guest is Natalie Ellis.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: She is the founder of Reebox HR.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now, HR, when I was a psychologist or training to be a psychologist very, very many years ago, that was one job that psychology would bring me to.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: But over the years it feels like it's changed a lot, and HR seems to be focused a lot more on recruitment rather than actually dealing with people.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: And Natalie's mission is to re-box the purpose of HR and bring it back to what it was there to do, and that is really support businesses and support people to get the best out of themselves.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Let's meet her.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Natalie, welcome to Mental Health Matters.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for having me.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to have you here.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now tell me a little bit about your career journey and what drew you to HR, especially for small and medium enterprises.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh, yeah, it's a bit of a mixed bag, isn't it, when you look at it.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: But um I started my career in 2006, so before then I was a travel agent on the high street.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a big change, isn't it?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_02: Just a just a tad.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I loved the customer service side of things and I loved speaking to people and fixing problems and all of those sorts of weird and wonderful things.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I absolutely loved my job.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the problem was that we started to see the decline of the high street at that point.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so what does everyone do when they see the decline of the high street?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: They go and get a job in HR at Woolworths, which is what I did.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um I can laugh about it now, but it was actually a really probably the making of my career.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: I am very, very lucky to have worked with the people at Woolworths and also go through what essentially most HR people don't go through, and that is seeing a wind-up of such a household name.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I was the last lady standing in 2008.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: That is an experience in itself.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think about six months before the company went into administration, I really noticed a lot of changes, not just with senior management, but I also had visibility of sensitive information like payroll.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I was seeing the big heads exiting and all of that stuff.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then we'd get memos come out that would say, you know, we're not allowed to order any stationery and things like that.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, things aren't great, and then we've issued profit warnings and things like that.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I was I would probably say very commercially astute at quite an early stage in my HR career.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, so that brought you to setting up your own business, or did you go through other HR offices before that?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so going through a global financial crisis, everything is so unstable, you don't know if you're going to be paid one month to the next.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I went temping because I was a HR admin.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'd worked my way through that, um, and then I decided actually I'm gonna go and expand my HR knowledge with what I have.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I worked for some really big companies.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I saw the startup of ASOS.com, so I was in the HR team there.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then of course I worked my way up through companies like Allied Milling and Baking and just got as much HR knowledge as I could.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: So in crisis, I saw opportunity.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_02: I thought if I can get experience to all of these things, I can carry that out to a career, and that's pretty much what I did before I went into HR consultancy itself, and then I thought there's a different way of doing this because it was very much very fast-paced, lots of clients get every client through the door, but there was very little um, shall we say, like hand holding or customer care that goes with that?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, this is where the customer service pull keeps bringing me back in, and I thought actually, there's people that really struggle with these HR processes.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: How do we make it simpler?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: And how do we apply it to small businesses who always get overlooked because they feel they don't need HR, or HR doesn't add much value to my business offering, or they're just there to tell us off.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: So there's so many different angles that I came at when I thought about the business, and then when I finally got a name, and I was like, How do I rebox HR?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: and that's essentially how it all came about, and now I have a team and I've grown the business substantially, so I'm in a very, very good position, and I'm very lucky to be able to share my knowledge and experience with that.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and that's why I'm very grateful for you being here because I think a lot of people, exactly like you've said, will sit there and think, Oh, I don't need HR, I I'm only a small business, why it's an extra cost, and so on.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, with that in mind, what do people misunderstand about HR?
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and especially with regards to the differences between a big firm and a small firm, because I think there will be quite big differences between that commercial aspect and that micro.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, absolutely.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, to answer your first questions, what the kind of perceptions are of HR is that it's almost like the head teacher approach, and people often go, oh gosh, I'm I've got to speak to HR.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody goes, Oh, I've got a meeting with HR today.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: That is true, that is true.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: So we're always up against that battle in the profession of trying to be approachable, trying to do the best for the business, whilst also balancing the needs of the employees, which I'm sure that we will delve into.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, yes, yes, absolutely.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: But it is very much a challenge from the get-go.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: If I speak to somebody at a business networking event, they say, Oh, what do you do?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I say, Well, I'm a HR consultant, I founded this business, and they go, Oh, it's it's just this perception that people have.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody says, Oh, I had a meeting with HR and it it was great, it was wonderful.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Nobody ever says that, and I think that teaches you to have a really tough skin.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: So the experiences I went in early on in my career have actually really benefited me because I'm now in a position where I'm like, okay, I get that, but this is where I can help you.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and then when people realise actually we're having a conversation about their business rather than just about the people element to it and how it all fits together, they're like, oh, you really see the penny drop.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: So my personal mission has always been to let's really change it up, let's shake up HR and let's get it approachable so people feel like they're having a cup of tea with a friend, rather than that they feel they're going to be told off or judged for what's going on and what they've what they've done.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's there's a you're almost adding a business development aspect to it rather than just are you following the procedures correctly?
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Which of course you need to do if you're going to develop your business anyway.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: And just in terms of the bigger companies and small companies, are there things which a bigger company might maybe just do automatically that a small company doesn't, or vice versa?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: So there are things that bigger companies have, often they'll have their own internal HR team, and a lot of internal HR professionals that we work with, because we support them too, is the fact that they often get questioned around impartiality because they might have friends in the business or they might know a certain someone, and employees will raise grievances and things like that and go, Oh, well, I can't have Sarah here my disciplinary or my grievance or whatever it is, because she's friends with the big boss, or she's the sister-in-law of that director, and we come up against this all the time.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: So it this is where we get called in.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so when we're working, especially with educational partners and people like that, there does seem to be that level of impartiality, but also we don't know anybody, so my team and I don't know anyone, yeah.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: So we look at it very objectively, and we're like, how does the you know the desired outcome come into the picture?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's interesting because I I've always thought that organisations, even very, very large ones, would benefit from an external HR rather than an internal, just because of that feeling of I don't want to go and see so-and-so because I know them or they know me or they'll tell somebody.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you've got you've you're onto something, definitely.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's why the business has done so well.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because we are very objective.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: My team, I train them to be objective.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because all of this doesn't come from a theory book, it doesn't come from text, it comes from actually what the experiences are and the company that you're working with's journey.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that comes into it, and every company is different.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: So my job is never dull.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Which is brilliant, and that makes that makes it a lot more fun every just day to day.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so with when you've got a budget, it's almost easier, but what does HR look like?
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: What do you really need when you've just got a very small budget that you can afford to use?
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need war and peace.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: People think that when HR come in, or if um some of our smaller clients have been contacted by larger HR consultancy providers and they feel that they need to do all of the things.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: And a word of advice to all of your listeners, don't Google HR because you'll end up with pages and pages of stuff that one is going to really intimidate you, and secondly, a lot of clients that come to us go, I'm actually really frightened because I'm not doing all of these things.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: What if I say the wrong thing to my employee?
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: What if I've done this wrong or that wrong?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's all about wrong, wrong, wrong.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that when we're looking at things more objectively, uh being a lot more constructive with that, we can get to know that business first of all.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: So, this is the difference between large and and smaller, is that we get to know that business on a much more personal level.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: We become part of their team.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I'm very protective of my clients.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, no, we we can do this a good way.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: HR can be done in a constructive way, but you don't have to do all of the things, you only know what you know, and as humans, we often forget that because we see you know, we're influenced by so many things, and some of the most successful directors and CEOs and managing directors that I work with, they all suffer really badly with imposter syndrome.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: I see that every single day, and they're like, Well, Natalie, I'm not doing all these things, and you're seeing this big burly guy who goes into a boardroom and he can tell everyone about themselves, and then he's like, Yeah, but I'm doing all of these things wrong, and you see them shrink.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, it's it's quite um it's quite a challenge, but when you're with them and you're working side by side with them, hand holding them through processes that intimidate them, their confidence grows as well.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, this is where all the value add comes in, and I love that piece about my job, it's so rewarding.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so that brings me to ask um when you've got a company, a small company, and we already know okay, you don't need to do everything, what things do you have to do?
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: Just make sure you've got the foundations in place, make sure that you have somebody who understands this.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: If I swapped places with my accountant for the day, there would be a crater where her accountancy once stood.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: And it's no different for HR.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: You if you don't trust yourself with your own accounts or if you recognise yourself as a leader that you don't feel that people management is your strongest suit, then fine, it admit that.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_02: Get the experts in that do know.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and this is why I've surrounded myself with people like my colleague Faye.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I knew that she was a rough diamond initially.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: We've polished her, and now she's just she's my fellow director now.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm no longer on my own, and I don't feel that the business is solely mine anymore, and that is also a really good thing because that means it belongs to other people as well.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: And by that I mean it's very much a we have to grow.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people say if you own your own business, then that's the end of it, you've reached the pinnacle of your journey, and you haven't.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: There's so much more you learn, and I I heard a quote the other day, and I can't remember for the life of me who made it, so I do apologize to your audience.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: But somebody said you recruit the experts around you so that you feel like you're the you know that you're the dumbest person in the room.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: That is, and I sometimes feel like that because it's uh a guilty.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: I know that quote, yeah, it's good.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I I just think it is fantastic, and I hadn't heard it before, if I'm honest with you.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: So to hear that and recognise that in my day-to-day practice, I'm like, I am surrounded by the experts that I need, and that is exactly where I wanted Reebox to be.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, we lend that to our clients.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's really nice.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and just before we go to a break, what is the difference between a small and medium enterprise versus a micro?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because that will also affect what HR is needed.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so a lot of the micro businesses that come to us will just want to know that they're onboarding people correctly.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: They might be growing, they don't want to be behind.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason that we create businesses in the first place is because we want to create the workspaces we always wanted to work for.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, I don't think that that could be truer when I walk in the office in the morning, I'm like, whoa, this is mine, I did this.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um my team come in, they're all like, Oh, these people work with me, it's great.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then when you start to grow, you end up as a small or medium size enterprise.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I've seen so many companies that forget about that first step that a lot of the micro businesses are already thinking about when it comes to HR, and we often find that we have to backpedal with the small and medium-sized businesses because they're like, Oh, HR's a tomorrow issue, that isn't something that I need, and then something goes wrong.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it's often at that point where either they've got a disgruntled employee, it could be that they've got an employee with mental health issues that comes up so much, um, or that they've got an employee with a neurodiverse diagnosis that they need that additional support from, and this is where we lend that expertise to support them.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: So they say that obviously there's the seven degrees of change, and you can see it as you go from a micro right through to the large-scale businesses, um, and then with large-scale ones, we often work with the internal HR team to support them.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: So we work with all of our clients in lots of different ways, but I think the issue that we find is that a lot of people don't treat them as individual businesses.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's like saying all people are the same, you know.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's actually better if you get to know them on a personal level so that you can work together, you can then adapt your style as HR to be able to support them to what they need.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I always look at it in that that way.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: We are gonna keep you and we'll be back just after some tips from one of our previous resident experts.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, one simple tip that I would like to give employers is to increase the awareness, make sure management are trained.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you do do internal training, think about having an external person coming in to educating, training, decreasing awareness because employees may be more comfortable in having a conversation with that trainer.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: And one final thing I just want to say is have conversations about anything and everything, about women's health.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, make sure if an employee is you're noticing that an employee is changing, ask them if everything's okay, even if they don't respond and say everything's fine, ask again another time.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: Just say that you might have noticed some sort of change in them, um, and that's the reason why you're actually asking.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And just have conversations at work about menstruation and um menopause.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: Don't sort of run away from it because you really don't need to.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: If you put simple steps in place in the short term, in the long term, your organization is going to be performing really well.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're here with Natalie Ellis, founder of Rebox HR, which is about reboxing HR for large organizations, for SMEs, and for micro organizations.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it is about showing HR as a business partner rather than something or someone to be scared of.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's a really interesting conversation because I think you've raised a lot of things that will be going through people's heads, especially if they are in a micro or small business when it comes to oh, I think I need HR, but I'm not sure, and I don't know how to go about doing this.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so let's go on to employees now.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how much of I guess not being disgruntled or maybe even feeling great at work um comes down to leadership behaviour versus actually having some pretty decent policies and procedures in place?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: So the foundations that I spoke about are generally your policies, your procedures, setting those expectations, and generally when people don't put those in place, they're winging it is the best professional term for that.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: And there's nothing wrong with winging it until it goes wrong.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that is what we're finding more and more of with employees, their expectations, expectations have changed dramatically over, oh my gosh, over even the past six to eight months.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen a real shift in and the the way that we look at that and explore what that trend data looks like just to um bring people into it, is that we always look at the absence data, and a lot of people go, why?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, actually, you can't argue, it's like numbers, you can't argue with numbers.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_02: The facts are and the evidence says this.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I always look at their absence data first of all when I'm onboarding a new client, and I'll be like, right, okay, this is where we really need to start making some changes because absence costs the UK economy billions, and people often go, Oh, but I'm gonna go to my employer for a pay rise.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: But if the employer's too busy paying everybody who's up sick, then how are they going to afford the pay rise?
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I often come at it from the employer's side of things because I can see what's commercially feasible and what is reasonable.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Then if employees, you know, they are much more aware of their rights these days, and there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever, but we've had quite a dramatic shift politically as to where these rights sit, and then you've got European legislation.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And when they start as well, some of the rights, because some of them is just with the gig economy and all of that, and zero hour contracts and all the changes there.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: From the minute you walk in the door, it's you've got rights.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, absolutely.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we're seeing I I think one of the areas that really needed the you know, the refresh, if you like, was around parental rights and you know, paternity leave.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm a big advocate, I know it sounds strange as a five foot one blonde woman, um, is that I actually really focus on um a lot of it is to do with how men feel in the workplace because they're silent.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: The cases that we work on and the heavy, lifted, complex casework often comes from female employees, which a lot of people don't realise.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and again, we've done our analysis on our grievances, disciplinaries, and investigations to be able to justify those figures.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know if that's what it looks like overall, but that's my personal um experiences from that.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I do feel that that increase around parental rights and paternity and maternity leave, all of those things, really do need that really good going over because it seems like a lot of people will just work and there is very little time for family life.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I often compare studies to uh Nordic nations and how they operate in terms of their culture and how their workplace culture comes into their private lives, I suppose, and I find that incredibly fascinating as to it makes us feel like we're really behind in the UK on that, but again, leaving politics out of it, legislation changes all the time.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and the biggest shift that we've recently seen is the Employment Rights Act, where we are seeing a lot of issues that are arising already.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: So this only really came into effect in April.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we did have some slight changes back in February, but the majority is coming from April.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_02: That's going to also change again in October and then again in January.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: So we are seeing a size sizable shift in how legislation and how quickly that's coming in.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: Now businesses aren't going to expect to know all of these things from day one, but employees expect them to.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: So that is a real issue, and this is why a lot of people say, I don't want to handle the HR stuff.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not offended by that, by the way.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: And they'll just say, Natalie, can you and your team take care of it?
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, so the investment is.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: In HR is growing significantly.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, because it needs to be there and it needs to be done by somebody who is always abreast of the situation.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's a lot of new stuff with the menopause as well coming in, so which is great, it's about time.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there isn't enough about domestic abuse yet, I don't think.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to throw a curveball in there.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's creeping in, and um my business especially is very uh we're big big advocates of um domestic um awareness in workplaces, it's actually one of our best-selling training courses.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: So that is specifically designed for line managers, and what we do is we talk them through what the signs are.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: If anybody in any business will know that their employee isn't right from the minute they walk in the door in the morning, it's the line manager.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: But yet those are the people who are not given the tools to be able to adequately deal with the job.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, and I just I just think just to pull that thread a little bit longer, I think it's really important because the amount of practitioners I've spoken to about domestic abuse on this show, they all say work was the one place people could go to, they were allowed to go to.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: Which means work is the one place that anything could even be done about it.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that not to put extra responsibility on leaders because they've got a lot anyway, but it is something which I think does need to be said a bit more.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: It does.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: I really, you know, Faye, Chloe, and I work with domestic abuse survivors, and some of the calls that we receive I think would shock a lot of people.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we again we have to look at this in a way where we are being supportive and we're signposting.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: So um, just a case that we had a few weeks ago was that we had to remove a mother and her young child and support the employer to remove them to get them to a safe house.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: So we are very aware, and my team are trained to be able to support in the right way because again, it's great having mental health champions, that's great, but a lot of that is signposting.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is really practical, and we are in the thick of it, whether we like it or not, we're involved.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: And if the line manager spots that there's something not quite right with the employee, and it was in this case the line manager saying, Natalie, there's something not right with this lady, and am I crossing the line by having this conversation?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I've said he'd noticed typical things, and he said, As a man coming at this, it makes me more awful.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, he was very honest, but he said, I really care about my team, and I've noticed there's some bruising around her wrist, and he said she often fobs it off because she's got a young child and things like that.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, I'm anonymising a lot of this, but the synopsis was is that her she blamed it on her child grabbing her wrist and that he's just going through those terrible two-phases.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it really wasn't the case.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: So um, we often donate to charity as well as a business to our local domestic violence uh support groups and centres.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: We're very, very passionate about that.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant to hear because uh it really is an under-recognised aspect of HR and of work at the moment.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Another one that I just this is a personal thing, and again it's another curveball.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, mental health first aiders.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: I agree with you.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: You said the word signposting.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think they should be there to sign post.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, that's all.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very concerned with what I do see in organizations where mental health first aiders are trying to be therapists.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: Counsellors, their emergency contact, the Samaritans.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_02: We had a case last month where a client phoned us and said, Oh, I've given this person my personal number because they've said that they're at risk of trying to take their own life.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, with all due respect that you're trying to help them actually, through kindness, you can make things worse.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you have to make sure you're bringing in an expert to them.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, you are there to signpost, you're not there to be a free therapist.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, listen to them, yes, take that on board and again signpost.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: You may feel that you're being unhelpful in some way, but often we've often seen it go the other way, where then the person that has raised that they're you know their concerns is then essentially becoming a therapist to the employee, uh the other the other employee they're disclosing this information to, and they're like, Oh, in my experience or when I did this, it it's not helpful, and it's certainly not conducive to supporting uh the working relationship because there is such a thing as too much information, yes, um, and we do find that quite a lot.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, yes, a lot of our um so my me and my team are of are trained, we know the signposting, we refresh it every other year, like we're supposed to, um, but also we keep up to date with the legislative and what our obligations are as professionals.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: But when people are in small businesses, it's often oh, we're family here, we can all share um our experiences and sit around the bonfire and talk about all of that, but it's really not um helping the individual, and it's certainly not helping the business because if you think about all of that time that is being spent, yes, listen to the employee, but at the same time, yes, the work needs to get done, but also you're not their therapist, and that can go backwards for you.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: We've actually seen cases come out in the employment tribunal system where people have tried to be kind and it's landed them in a lot of hot water and it's very, very expensive to get out of.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I'm so happy to hear you say that.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: I say this so much as a psychologist, but it's really great to have it from the HR perspective as well.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: Because there was one conference I went to where I just felt like I was losing my voice saying again and again, you are not a therapist, you are not a therapist, and one person, just one person in the whole room, stood up and said, actually, we use we come from an HR standpoint, we have our mental health first stages as part of our strategy.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: They come in, they let us know what the issues are, they signpost.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Just oh my gosh.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Who gets this?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: Because I worry, I come at it from the other side of things, just simply you're not you don't understand safeguarding.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, you now put yourself in trouble.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: You can re-traumatise the person, you can re-traumatise yourself, you can definitely get into a strange situation for you, which becomes very problematic, and that's before you even get to the HR implications.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Safety is a really big thing.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: So whilst um I was on my way here, I was on the phone to one of my team and I told her that I have arrived safely.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: I expect my team to do that every time they're out and about to let me know.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we do risk assessments every time we're going onto a client's site or if we are out and about somewhere, we have check-in points.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's not because I'm micromanaging, it is because I genuinely care about their safety.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: When you're remote working like that, it's really it's what nurses do.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's brilliant.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really and the saddest part is I've been in training sessions where they've gone, oh, I I just don't have time to do it.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you do! You really you need to make the time because that is actually important for you.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it's it's so, so important, but also we are exposed in HR into very risky situations.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: We're not here to tell people what they want to hear.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: We're certainly not in the business of delivering great news all of the time.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: HR is anything but pink and fluffy, and a lot of people go, Oh, you know, we can just go up and ask for a I don't know, a tea and coffee budget with with HR and things like that, but there is so much more to it, and the stuff that we're getting into now versus what my career looked like nearly 10 years ago are very, very different things.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: There's no such thing as a five-minute HR conversation anymore, but safeguarding for me and my team.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the reason that all of that happened is because I was locked in a room once by an employee who was disgruntled, he wouldn't let me leave.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, on-site security had to literally kick the door in to get him out.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there's even seating protocol that I have.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I always sit closest to the door.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, you know, the employee sits around the other side, especially if you're delivering a difficult meeting or whatever that looks like.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: HR really doesn't look at these things, but I'm always very aware of what this looks like, and that was taught to me when I worked in the transport industry.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's well, that's actually good to hear because that is something that you're taught as a coach or a therapist.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's it's standard there because you know that you're going into those situations.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I think this is where it's important for that knowledge to filter into other industries where people are going to be delivering news that not everyone wants to hear.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I would say it came from a psychologist or a therapist or you know, someone in that profession.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_02: No, this came from a transport manager, a big burly man, um, who said women's safety should always be a priority when you're going into difficult situations.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: I've never forgotten that.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, and I I do feel that there is that lacking of looking at the bigger picture because employees do become aggressive.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've had chairs thrown at me, I've been physically grabbed, um, I've been shaken by an employee's family out and about, like in my personal time.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and there's also, you know, you have to have this awareness of what your surroundings look like, but also who has access to you.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: You can't give everything.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_02: You you can do the things and undertake those processes, but you can't be all of the things.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what a lot of HR tries to be.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, yeah.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And and yes, it's very difficult to play good cop and bad cop at the same time as well.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: You can't nurture someone whilst you're disciplining them.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't work, it doesn't sit well.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't sit well with that person's image of you, or narrative of you, or whatever that past relationship was.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_01: Whilst you're talking though, what's actually quite heartbreaking is you hear those very same stories from teachers.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I I don't think enough's being done for that for the education profession in terms of safety.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is a much more it it doesn't sit just solely within individual organisations.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think there needs to be a larger policy or charter or something about safety, not just for women, but women are more at risk in those situations because women are smaller and slighter.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, and we've seen those horrific cases of you know the teachers that were attacked in Wales.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: There was two of those.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: You you know, we've seen teachers attacked, you know, male teachers attacked.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's really disheartening because I mean I grew up in the 80s and 90s, I went to school in the 80s and 90s, and you know, that I've never felt so much sense of community, and you know, we were very integrated, we were taught to be part of that community, and that we are there.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you saw a piece of rubbish, you'd pick it up and put it in the bin.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still that person, um, and I'll never take that away because that is a true value that I have, not just for litter, but care in the community, what it looks like.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think we've really lost that as the years have gone by.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: People, you know, I was taught to respect my elders and things like that.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: You don't really see those values anymore, and I know so many teachers.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: I was the only person out of my friendship group that didn't become a teacher, so all of them became teachers, one's even like a super savvy head of science, you know.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I didn't do that, I was going to become an English teacher, but I actually thought, oh, do you know what business just sets my soul on fire?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what it is, but it sets my soul on fire, and um, you know, that came from childhood roots.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: My dad, you know, he worked so so hard, my mum worked so many jobs, and you worked hard and respected what you have, whereas now I know so many people coming out of the teaching profession because they just feel that they're not adding value in the way that they used to.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: And the number one thing for people when they're looking for new jobs, it isn't about the salary, it's about the purpose.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: How valuable is the job?
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so this is why if I'm recruiting for someone, it's about the value and the m the you know, the motivations, the drives and passions of that person that really shine through for me because you know they're gonna do a good job for you.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_02: The job can be taught, what can't be taught is motivation, passion, and drive.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're gonna keep you, Natalie, and we will be back just after some tips from a previous resident expert.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: The annoying thing about when women do leave work or they reduce their hours, right, to make it better, but you can actually reduce your hours, hopefully, on a short-term basis, have a plan in place to actually um see how it's going, and if they do, for example, take time off work rather than taking sick leave, or if they take sick, you know, they're sick because of what's happening to them, there's things that the employer can actually do, check in with your employee, making sure that oh, what they said they're going to do, have they done that?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Just showing them that you're interested, you remember what they've said, can make a difference for that employee.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if they're burnt out, they are going to leave because it's because not a preference, it's because they are not coping with their health.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm here with Nasie Ellis, she's the founder of Reebox HR.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: We are having a fascinating conversation about where HR is going and what HR needs to deal with.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now, in the break, um Naslie, you were telling me about sometimes you've had to deal with some really difficult situations.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Employees who are taking drugs.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: We've talked about domestic abuse, uh, mental health issues.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're beginning to understand a little bit about mental health issues, but um one of my, and this is a friend, not a client, but a friend of mine, I know, they told me about this.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_01: They caught a colleague taking drugs in a toilet, and immediately they said, you know, oh I know, I've got to take that to HR.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: They don't know what happened to it after they took it to HR.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I that I worry about that because I think a company like yours, you're you're on top of this, you understand you've got to deal with this.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: I worry that HR in other companies that are not thinking like that just kind of go, oh, well, if we just sit on it, it might not happen again.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then it might go away.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: It won't.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: Where's that rug to sweep it under?
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's incredibly frustrating.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll I'll get into uh the points.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we deal with why do you think we avoid Christmas parties?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because this is where it all happens.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: I've been to a Christmas party and I was told to supervise at the Christmas party.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I actually talk about this in one of the Christmas episodes of our podcast, HR Unboxed, and what we do is that I went along to this, I was told by senior management, none of the senior leadership team are gonna be there.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_02: No one's gonna be there.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: Natalie, can you make sure they all behave themselves?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it was at a hotel, um, and what happened was is that there were urinals ripped off the wall, there were drugs being openly done on the meal tables.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god! Um gosh! I I was at a complete loss.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: I am outnumbered by 200 employees at this point, um, and it was supposed to be a nice event to celebrate how hard the employees had worked.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: Now, a lot of what I would say the upstanding employees decided not to attend, and then I thought, actually, this is the way the night is gonna go for this.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's the message.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, so I'm very aware of what that looks like, but then I was like, I am one person.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: I had one of the management um team there, and he said, Natalie, I think it's best at this point that you leave because I can see this getting really messy, I will take it from here.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: And he was lovely, and we're still friends to this day, um, because he could see where this was you know escalating, and he said, I don't want HR to be implicated in that because you're gonna have to fix this, is the undertone.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah um, so yes, drugs, alcohol, gambling addictions, um, we deal with everything.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_02: Internal HR is very transactional.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: New starter comes on board.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do your lovely induction.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, welcome.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do an introduction to all of your players and your team and all of that lovely fluffies, yeah.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: All the stuff that the CIPD textbooks teach.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, they're not trained for the other stuff.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I can actually just look at them and go, You're not trained for that.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: You wouldn't even last as a teacher, you know.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, well you well you it deals with you deal with it, but yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: No, that there's no I'll be honest with you, a lot of what I know is self-taught by really learning the law.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, a lot of HR people don't do that.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_02: They think the policy on face value is enough.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, which and I can swing by that, and I could be paid excess of 100k to be able to recite a policy.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: When I created the business and when I was learning employment law from an employment law solicitor, he was he's fantastic to work with.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: I still work with him to this day.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: He taught me a lot of what I know, and he said, No, Natalie, this pink and fluffy is gone.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is the real hardcore stuff, and these are the real challenges HR are coming up against.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: But I also am aware that a lot of the profession will sweep it under the rug and say, Do you know what?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not paid enough to deal with this.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I know people that have done that, or they use the phrases above my pay grade, yeah, um, which I find incredibly frustrating because one of the things that I hold very true is that accountability part of it.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: How do I fix this?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, I can offer a suggestion of resolve, however, how do I take accountability for the processes and how do I protect that business?
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: Because I know that if we come to dismiss said employee who's doing drugs that they will find.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_02: There's opening a can of worms to risk, but don't worry, that employee has ADHD, so we can't dismiss them.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see the challenges?
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_02: And this is what everyday businesses are coming up against.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_02: And the I mean, I have a household full of autism.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not autistic myself.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: They take the Mickey out of me and call me I'm the NT of the neurotypical one, and they're like, Oh, you're being so NT about this.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: My my stepchildren and my husband, they're all very you're very NT, Natalie.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Thank you.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we call it out.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: So my husband is um he won't mind me saying his age, he's 52 years old, he's lived with autism all of his life.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: He got the cane multiple times at school because he was his behaviour, yeah, yeah.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't necessarily his behaviour, he wasn't picking things up fast enough, he wasn't learning in the same way the other kids, he was clearly lazy.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_02: All of these factors came into it, and when he told me, uh I I'm not sure if you've seen it, Audrey, but have you seen the film Um oh it's about the guy with Tourette's?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, I swear.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's it, yeah, brilliant, absolutely brilliant.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought, Mark, we're gonna watch it because we'd seen some clips on social media.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: I know we're gonna bring that beast into the room very shortly.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: But Mark and I sat there and watched it, and he said to me, tonight was a really hard watch for me.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I I don't see my husband emotional very often, but with this particular piece he did, and he said, That's how they taught me at school.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was caned, I was punished, I was told to stand in the corner of the room with my head against the wall.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, yeah.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: He said I had rubbers thrown at me, um, all sorts of horrific things, and you know, it feels like this we had to pay for a private diagnosis for Mark, and we invested in that.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it was one of the best things as a couple we have ever done because you need to understand each other.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: But also, from my work perspective and how I approach neurodiverse cases, my view on that has dramatically changed again outside of the policy, outside the theory.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: This is what's actually happening.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, so when you look at it in that way, I can see certain things and I can see certain patterns of behaviour that would die, you know, would lead to a diagnosis.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: Now, unfortunately, as adults on the NHS, you are not diagnosed.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_02: Now, a lot of employees will say, Oh, I'm getting tested.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, Well, how are you getting tested?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, my doctor's referring me.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: They won't.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: You have to pay for a private diagnosis.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's the best amount of money, it was very expensive, it was the best amount of money that we could ever do because we learnt so much as a couple, we learnt so much about how we work together, but also how he works in his working life because sometimes he'd come home and he wouldn't stop moaning, and it would be all about the job, and these people have really frustrated, but there would be one particular element of it, and it was how he was managed.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, I'm gonna get into trouble if I don't figure out what's wrong with me, what's wrong with me?
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, I don't think there's anything wrong with you.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: I said, You just work differently, you always have.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_02: And having done the job that I've done for I'm celebrating 20 years in HR this month, doing the job that I do, I knew that there were traits, but you can't outwardly say, Oh, by the way, I think you're autistic.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think we need to get you tested because automatically you come part mentalise and go, what is wrong with me?
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's automatic.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: A label.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when Mark hears some of the cases that I'm dealing with, because I have to offload as an NT too.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: If I am offloading and I say to him about this case, he says, It makes me so cross that people weaponize ADHD, autism spectrum disorders.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: He said, I have worked so hard my entire life to effectively manage and be and embrace who I am, for someone to come along and say, I suit that tick box so I can sue my employer.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you can see it in social media forums and people will you know, and it stops the people that genuinely need that support who are breaking down, um, who really do need that support from the NHS, and that I can't be grateful enough for our NHS, they are fantastic.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_02: I've been through my own health scares.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_02: I am starting to speak about those a little bit more often when I can, but it's one of those where I'm st it still feels very raw to me.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I acquired my children, I have two stepchildren.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_02: Sadly, I wasn't able to have any of my own.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: So there are these internal battles in HR that you go through, but you can't say anything because you're in HR and you're there to fix the problems.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: So this is where it all kind of comes together as a cluster, and employees and how they present themselves is increasingly different over time.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's very important that you have that insight and it shows you just how complex a role in HR actually is.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_01: You almost need HR being all the roles being filled by psychologists who've got that background and that training.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the funny thing is, when I was doing psychology, and this is years ago, so when I was doing an A levels um back in the 90s, um I love that.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was the next step, it was actually what are your career paths?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: HR was a career path.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that was very specifically the case.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_01: Something changed over the next sort of 30 years, and now HR became transactional.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: It became, well, we just need to deal with the new starters, you just need to deal with the CVs, you just need to stand up and in introduce your yourself to the company.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the same thing as what is actually going on.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the sad part is I don't think anything's changed with the issues that people are facing.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, I think they're just exasperated a little bit because obviously you've got influences from social media, and I will give you a full exclusive disclosure.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: I failed my HR exam at school.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I was studying business A level and I failed my HR module.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: Why?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: Because I didn't engage with the subject, I didn't see where it fitted into the business puzzle.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_02: I know that's really silly, but that's what I ended up doing.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because what I did tune into was the practicalities.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the teacher was teaching us theory.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: Whereas if somebody comes to me and says, Natalie, I've got a real problem with this employee and I really need your help, I can practically fix that.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's not an issue.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: It might take me some time, but I can practically fix it.
• 46:57
  SPEAKER_02: The problem is that that's where the reward piece comes in for me because HR is a thankless job, and this is why a lot of people go, Oh, well, it's above my pay grade, it's this, it's that.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: So they do remain transactional intentionally.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, I completely get where you're coming from, but people's needs and demands and things like that.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, addictions have been since the beginning of time, and you know, people not understanding or equipping themselves, as I said, a lot of what I've done is self-taught.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_02: I've had to learn it myself, I've had to engage with the people, get to know them, and it's the experience that internal HR doesn't get exposure to because often it's not reported to HR because then it becomes a HR issue.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's the thing.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: If it's not so I do a lot with leadership, and a lot of the time you hear complaints from the clients, having had this conversation with you, I will be asking the question: is it leadership or is it HR?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because actually, the leaders may sometimes be bound by what HR does or does not do about something because there's the policy in place, and if that if HR thinks I'm gonna hide behind that policy, that's gonna filter down to the next person.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I could talk to you all day about this because I think this is so fascinating.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we are running out of time, but where can we learn more about you?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh, so I am easily available on LinkedIn.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: I do spend a lot of time on the platform, um, so I am open to any questions if people want to ask me or get in touch.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we have got so many free resources and blog posts.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm naturally a creative writer, so a lot of my blog posts and a lot of really practical tips around HR, around all sorts of subjects, can be found on our website at reboxhr.co.uk.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we've also got lots of helpful things on there like a holiday calculator, salary calculators, redundancy, whatever it looks like that you're dealing with.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of what I offer and information is actually there to add value, so that's why I offer so many free things, or you can catch up with our HR Unboxed podcast.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: And for anybody who's starting out in HR, I think it's so important that you engage with the practicals of what you're getting yourself into.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um so in 2020, I published, I set up a company, Audrey, as you do, set up a company, decided to run myself ragged and publish a book during COVID.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Fantastic.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I wrote a book called Launch Your HR Career.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: And if anyone wants to get in touch with me, I'll happily sign a copy and send it out to you.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna go straight over to Testa Trend.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: So my biggest tip for anyone who's going into HR or is part of the profession or is a leader is to be really in tune with your people.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: I know that it sounds like it's absolute basic 101 for any role, but it's often the piece that we often lose sight of.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: So definitely get in tune with your people, see what's going on, look at your absence trends and look at how that is impacting on your productivity and where you can make future improvements.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: It was one of those conversations that I could have really carried on all day because it's so fascinating to hear it from a lived experience point of view from an expert.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_01: We are not necessarily talking about the theory that everyone teaches in books, which is now getting quite out of date.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: HR is having to deal with a lot of things which perhaps they perhaps weren't quite so widespread a few years ago.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: And to keep themselves safe and to keep themselves well, they need to be moving with the times, and that's exactly what Natalie's doing.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing I wanted to end on and I wanted to pick up on from what she said when she was talking about diagnoses.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Diagnoses are important as a psychologist.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know this because they help you with getting support, getting finances, getting your employer to understand that you might need reasonable adjustments.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: However, at no point in the history of psychology was a diagnosis there to tell you you couldn't do something.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: At no point in the history of therapy was a therapist there to tell you you couldn't do something.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: Therapy and diagnoses are there to help you manage.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, life is hard, life is really difficult, but if you understand what's going on and you understand what you need, you will have a way to help yourself.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: And whilst other people, when they know and when they can learn, can make those reasonable adjustments, a diagnosis is not there to say, I can't do this.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, every diagnosis and every therapist is there to help you know that you can.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just what I'd like to leave us on tonight.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: Just really think about this: that any intervention is to help you progress, not to close yourself off to the world.