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Just Transition to a Decarbonised Economy for South Africa (JUST SA): Free State Edition · TIPS Podcast

• 0:11
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the Trade and Industrial Policy Strategies official podcast, Tips Talk, the show where we delve into the fascinating world of economics and its impact on global development.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Ndonbi Chabalala, and today we're asking why it's important for the stakeholder group to understand global climate change policy and the imperative to green our economy as well as make the transition just.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: We're at the fourth edition of the Green Economy and Just Transition Training in the Free State.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: And today we see how these provincial and local government officials can turn policy into action.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_03: Can you please introduce yourself and share a bit about your role and where you work?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: Good afternoon.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: My name is Mpulukeng Mukalobe.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: I work at Tistia, its Department of Economic Development, Tourism and Environmental Affairs in the Free State.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: I am responsible for environmental policy planning and coordination, including climate change in the province.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: So, how was your first day of the green economy and just transition training?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: It was quite interesting.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I think for me, it was the interactive side of the training, but also the information that was shared because I believe that there are different definitions or different understandings when it comes to green economy as well as just transition.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_02: So just getting on that first day, the briefing so that we are all on the first page really ticked the box for me.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: Great.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: And what stood out to you the most in today's session?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Today's session was interesting because, as much as the previous day it was more definitions, today it was more the tools that we could use going back to our work, basically step-by-step indication of what we need to do, especially to identify green economy projects and also just transition what we need to do in the province.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: The picture that was painted was both nationally and also looking at the international view, and we are hoping to bring that back now into the province.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: And that leads me to my next question, which is that how do you plan to apply the insights from the training workshops to your role?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: I am responsible for development of policies, including climate change policies, energy, just transition.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: So with the tools that we got, especially today, I would be able to put them into use by developing, first of all, our own plan as the province, but also we have an element of supporting municipalities.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I would be able to also apply that same skill into supporting municipalities in developing their specific plans, whether it's around green economy projects or programs, just transition plans, but also the whole environmental issues in general.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: And what do you see as the key risks and opportunities of the just transition for the Free State province?
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: For for the Free State, um, there are a number of issues, and which some of them I think are nationwide, which would include the issues of we were looking at the monies that have been spent in just transition in other countries.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_02: Funding would be one of the key risks that will limit the amount of work or the pace that we run with in terms of transition, but also human capacity, whether it's provincial or at municipal level.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: The other key risk is I'm not so sure whether we are at the level where we are well coordinated to work together as the public sector as well as the private sector in ensuring that we collectively plan and implement projects that will move us forward, whether it's the greening part or the just transition itself.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, great.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_03: So that wraps up the first interview.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much for your insights.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: Can you please introduce yourself and share a bit about your role and where you work?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_04: My name is Pilot Diselawan Chaviling.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_04: I'm the head of research and technology development services in the Free State Department of Agriculture and Rural Development.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_04: My role is to deal with issues of RD, specifically in applied research, in what you call adaptive research as well as evaluation research.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_03: And how was your first day of the green economy and just transition training?
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_04: Well, the first day was so informative to a point whereby we have learned a lot of lessons that are take home.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_04: We also shared our experiences with the trainers, and really for us, it was more eye-opening in terms of both a green economy as well as transitioning and how best we can deal with those moving forward.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: And what stood out the most for you in today's session?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_04: What stood most for me, and surely it should be for all the participants, it was more about the policy imperatives linked to both green economy and just energy transition.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_04: The policy imperatives here, what is intriguing and very, very interesting, was more on those imperatives that are more linked to the ambitions that were actually highly articulated under what we call JET.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_04: So those ambitions really are so instrumental to an extent that even if then you have to apply any pragmatic project on the ground and you leave those out, obviously you will fall short on the way.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: And how do you plan to apply the insights from the training workshops to the work that you do?
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_04: As a researcher myself, just to give one example of the research project that we're doing in Green Economy, which is what you call bioethanol project.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_04: I'm part of the core researchers there.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_04: We find that in reality, Free State Department of Agriculture will really contribute because in South Africa, you will all know that there is no any what you call reference crop that has been actually well researched to can participate meaningfully into the what you call bioenergy.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_04: In this case, we are looking at bioethanol, and our discoveries basically was that we are able to identify a particular number of cultivars within the sweet sorghum environment, which actually are able to contribute with the high bricks content.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not talking about the bricks of the BRICS.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_04: I'm talking about BRIX BRICS content, which is part of the energy mix that is required for you to be able to have enough jewels for them to can become part of the you know octane mix to try and blend and minimize the concentration of the octane within the petroleum industry.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: And what do you see as the key risks and opportunities of the just transition for the free state province?
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_04: Well, there are a number of risks, which really, if we are not, as I said earlier on, we are not careful in trying to streamline those ambitions that were actually we got trained on by the transition trainer.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_04: All of them for me, you can't have one and leave the other.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_04: Out of the three, for me, all of them, because say, for example, you can't include people during the planning process, then it's as good as not going anywhere.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_04: Whilst at the same time you try to redistribute what or distribute what, because the people have already been omitted within the value chain.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_04: So all of them, including, of course, then when you restore, you can't restore something that has, even if it's damaged.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_04: But if then at the beginning you did not ensure that there's involvement of everybody, then whatever you're trying to restore may also fall short on the way.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_04: So for me, all of them are very critical for you to be able to start implementing any green economy project.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_04: And that for me will really certify and satisfy justice requirement for any green economic project that you can think of.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: So this brings us to the end of our second interview.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_03: Can you please introduce yourself and share a bit about your role and where you work?
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thank you.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: Good day.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Fanny Zem.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: I am currently the acting manager for the Environmental Management Department in Lizuliputza District Municipality.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Fanny.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: And how was your first day of the green economy and just transition training?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: The first day for me was very interesting and fascinating in the sense that I think for the longest time I've always known about the transition that the country and even the rest of the world has been undergoing in the recent years.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: However, I was not aware of the concept of the just transmission.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: And the first day for me opened up my mind to a whole new spectrum of what it exactly means.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because for me it's always been a case of we're just moving from fossil fuel, we're using green energy now.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: But the first day showed me that it's actually so much more the social factors that must be considered.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: There's economical factors, there's political factors.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: So the first day for me opened up my mind to so many dimensions to this topic that I was not aware of.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's great.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_03: And what stood out for you the most in today's sessions?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, today's sessions, what stood out for me has to be how deep we went into critically investigating the possible impacts of what the just transition looks like and what it will mean for the economy, for the livelihoods of our people.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think for some time we're only concentrating on just we're moving from this point to this point or not.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: But then today it was more about, but we can't do that if we're not taking people with.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what's gonna happen to these people that are most likely to lose their employment?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: How do we then carry them forward?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: How do we then sustain this project that we are on?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what stood out for me today.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_03: And how do you plan to apply these insights from the training workshops to your work?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: For me, it's now a case of uh being more practical.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: I believe the two sessions have been on a practical level as to exactly what are the things that we need to really look at as we start implementing this project.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_01: So for me at work, I will then obviously, when I have the meetings with the municipal manager and all the other relevant stakeholders, then open their minds to the things that I too was not exposed to, to say, but there's these things that I've learned when we attended the summit for the past two days, and we have to factor in these things.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, it's a case of just being more practical in the approach that we might have had in how we're going to proceed forward in implementing the project.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_03: That sounds great.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: So, what do you see as the key risks and opportunities of the just transition in the free state province?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, I think the main risks that at this stage have detected is the loss of employment.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, it's double-sided in a sense that as much as there's a risk factor to it, there's also an opportunity factor to it that we can upskill the current people that we have so that as we transition to clean energy, at least they are also skilled and knowledgeable enough to still be relevant even in that new dispensation that will be on at that moment.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_03: All right, thank you so much, Fanny.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_03: That brings us to the end of our third interview.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: Can you please introduce yourself and share a bit about your role and where you work?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Neo Emanuel Celinda.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I work for the Office of the Premier Free State in the Provincial Strategic Planning, Policy and Research Unit.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: Great.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: How was your first day of the green economy and just transition training?
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: The first day was lovely.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: One tends not to understand some of these terms that we come across sometimes.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: But now there's at least a definition of what just transition is and what green energy is, and you can put literally a definition to now the words that we've been talking about and the sphere that we're moving into in terms of green energy and so forth.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_03: And what stood out for you the most in today's session?
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: In today's session, there were moments where we spoke about the labor markets and everything and how the green economy is trying to make sure that we will be moving forward with everybody in the labor market and not leave anybody behind.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I found that to be very important in terms of matters of redress and so forth, moving forward as a country.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: And now we are not going to leave anybody behind and move forward altogether, trying to make sure that we are a sustainable country living in a sustainable environment.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_03: And how do you plan to apply these insights from the training workshops to your work?
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: From the training workshops into my work, we've already started as the free state actually.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of our Free State Growth and Development Strategy, we have a section on green energy and such matters.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: We have hosted the Free State Energy in Daba last year in 2024, whereby we started with showcasing matters of moving from combustible engines and so forth in terms of vehicles.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we have the solar farm projects that are going on in the Karib district and in Machabeng.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And we actually have another new project that we are looking into in terms of helium and gas exploration in the same Machabang area.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: So we are trying to move forward in terms of going green in the province.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_03: And is there a possibility for the free state to develop your own policies around the green economy and as well as just transition and also to feed them upwards to the national level?
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: I believe there's an opportunity to do so.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: We always strive to be the best in our province.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And by so doing, I think we will be the leaders in trying to make sure that just transition and green energy is a leading topic in the country.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_03: And do you have any other opportunities in mind?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_03: And also what do you see as the key risks of the just transition for the free state province?
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: At the moment, the key risks that I've picked up is just that lack of funding.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Lack of funding will be one of the big risks.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Working in silos will be one of the big risks between provincial government and local government.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: But as it's probably my job, we will try and fix that as soon as possible.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: All right, great.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much, Neo.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: And that brings us to the end of our fourth interview.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_03: Can you please introduce yourself and share a bit about your role and where you work?
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you very much.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_05: I'm Tilden Hotso Mosha, an advisor at the South African Local Government Association, which is an association for local government for all the 257 municipalities in the country.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_05: And at as a violator, I'm an advisor in the portfolio municipal sustainability that deals with climate change and environmental sustainability, of which we have.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_05: Just transition is one of the key components that we actually just recently started in terms of advancing within the local government space, of which is more relevant to this particular session that we are at the moment.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: And how was your first day of the green economy and just transition training?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_05: A little bit better because yeah, there was a lot, but we did learn a lot because now you start to we did dive deeper, like through the presentations, because we could learn most importantly the differentiation between green economy, specifically, just transition, and also the emphasis with regards to the transition and the just part of it.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, learning those components just to indicate that we have always had transitioning, but the just part of it is also something else that actually we need to once again prioritize.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_05: I think it was more uh actually insightful, especially in terms of the concepts and what really we should be focusing on.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_05: So, yeah.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: And what stood out to you the most in today's session?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_05: The today's session, I think maybe I may include also some of the elements that may have been carried over since also, including the yesterday's session.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_05: Once again, the transitioning and the just part of it, just to indicate that we still need to put more emphasis with regards to the just.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_05: We really need to work around the just concept because we have always been transitioning.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_05: So there were obviously discussions in terms of then how do we explain the just part of it, of which at the moment could be a bit of a gray area.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_05: So the discussions around the just for me is what stood out in terms of the stakeholders because there were obviously discussions or the questions raised in terms of how are we doing, can we really at the moment to say that we are just in terms of where we are?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_05: So for me, that was what's actually stood out, of which I believe needs more priority going forward in terms of how we define the just position.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_03: And how do you plan to apply the insights from the training workshops to your work?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_05: As I've highlighted within the organization, Salga, we have just transition as one of the key components.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_05: Um it started with regards to the priorization of the concept because we need to define and also going forward the local government position because we obviously understand that the local government's core mandate, which is service delivery, is actually directly or indirectly related to the transition and part of it.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_05: So for us, it's going back in terms of capacitative municipalities because we have been doing that, like I have said, uh socializing the concept, but also once again, just to indicate uh so that we advance what you call maybe the clarity between the just transition and service delivery mandate.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_05: Because, I mean, if we are able to properly implement the just transition concept, we will be advancing the service delivery.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_05: So it's for us going back just to capacitate municipalities and continue socializing the concept to indicate the link between just transition or transition itself and service delivery, because should we able to fail implementing properly the transition part of it, that affects service delivery at the end of the day, be it social related aspects.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_05: Because if we make an example around people losing jobs and other related concerns, there's going to be service delivery issues.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it could be social unrest and all of that.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_05: At that end of the day, impact municipalities directly.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_05: So it's us be able to make that link and capacity municipalities continuously so that they understand the importance of prioritizing or advancing the just transition at a local level and also just to make sure that going forward they're able to integrate, especially with the key strategic municipal planning.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_03: What's the key risks and opportunities, in your view, of the just transition for the free state province?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_05: For the province, I think at the moment, especially if I mean start with the risk, or one of the key risks, I think I'll just identify one potential risk to say leaving out the key stakeholders of which, especially with regards to the local government interest, it's communities, leaving them out or not really be thoroughly consulting and including them with regards to decision making could affect the overall process in the province because they may not be part of the main objectives as far as the implementation is concerned.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_05: So if the free state communities or stakeholders are adequately consulted, they are involved in the decision-making process and they are allowed to provide adequate input in terms of what do they want to see as far as just transition is concerned, that could really either be it or break the process.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_05: So it should be that we plan with the communities, not plan for them.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_05: And they should be able to confidently integrate their inputs or the concerns so that they define the picture for the province.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_05: Otherwise, there's opportunities, as we mentioned, the skills development.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_05: There's obviously new potential skills-related aspects that could generate from like from our make an example, renewable energy projects, of which there's employment opportunities for the local communities and even for municipalities, for example, because there's potential for revenue generation.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, if we're talking about the ideal positioning of the local government, we also should include potential revenue opportunities for the municipalities in the province.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_05: So if we are able to integrate thoroughly the communities in the province and also including municipalities, you do assist in terms of skills development and also most importantly, employment opportunities and also municipal revenue generation in that regard.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: Great.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: We've now wrapped up our fifth interview.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_05: Thank you very much.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_03: That wraps up today's session.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_03: A huge thank you from the Just SA team on behalf of TIPS to our guests for sharing their expertise and also for sharing their time with us, and also for attending the Just SA training.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_03: We hope you'll continue to champion the mandate of greening the economy in a just and equitable way.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_03: And to our listeners, your support means the world to us.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for joining the Trade and Industrial Policies strategies official podcast.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: Remember, sustainable growth is not just a goal, but a path to a more resilient and prosperous future.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and connect with us on social media.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: We'll talk again soon when we are in the next province.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_03: Until then, I'm Dombi Chabalala, an economist from the Just SA team, signing off.