Latest / Deep Tech Germany – AI, Robotics & Frontier Innovation by Startuprad.io™ / SME Finance Automation Infrastructure: Moss's Ante Spittler
Transcript
- WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:03.680 What if the future of finance isn't in spreadsheets or 2 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:07.040 banks, but in software that actually understands your business? 3 00:00:07.600 --> 00:00:11.080 Today's guest helped build one of Europe's fastest growing 4 00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:14.640 fintech platforms, empowering thousands of SMEs 5 00:00:14.800 --> 00:00:18.560 to automate, spend, master real time budgeting 6 00:00:18.560 --> 00:00:21.840 and finally ditch the chaos of manual finance 7 00:00:21.840 --> 00:00:25.440 workflows. From corporate cards to E money licenses, from 8 00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:29.240 P2 till backing debuffing compliance, this founder's story is 9 00:00:29.240 --> 00:00:32.730 real redefining what finance ops can be. Stay tuned. 10 00:00:32.810 --> 00:00:36.570 This once a master class for modern CFO, 11 00:00:37.050 --> 00:00:40.490 SaaS, builders and startup fans alike. 12 00:00:46.250 --> 00:00:49.290 Welcome to Startup Rad IO, 13 00:00:49.930 --> 00:00:53.370 your podcast and YouTube blog covering the German 14 00:00:53.450 --> 00:00:56.980 startup scene with news, interviews and 15 00:00:57.140 --> 00:00:58.420 live events. 16 00:01:00.820 --> 00:01:04.620 Hello and welcome everybody. This is Joe from StartupRate IO bringing you 17 00:01:04.620 --> 00:01:08.460 another exclusive deep dive into the minds shaping the future of startup 18 00:01:08.460 --> 00:01:12.020 finance and technology across Europe. Today I'm 19 00:01:12.020 --> 00:01:15.500 joined by Ante Splitter, the CEO and co founder of 20 00:01:15.500 --> 00:01:19.180 moss, a Berlin based fintech scale up that's 21 00:01:19.180 --> 00:01:22.650 become a category leader in Spanish event management and finance 22 00:01:22.650 --> 00:01:26.450 automation for SMEs German Kaimus. If you're 23 00:01:26.450 --> 00:01:30.250 a founder, CFO or operator tired of juggling 24 00:01:30.250 --> 00:01:34.010 receipts, budget approvals and end of 25 00:01:34.010 --> 00:01:37.650 month chaos like everybody is, you want to 26 00:01:37.650 --> 00:01:41.490 listen closely. Musk is building the most intelligent finance 27 00:01:41.490 --> 00:01:45.170 stack for European businesses, unifying everything from 28 00:01:45.170 --> 00:01:48.890 copper cards and accounts payable to real time insights, 29 00:01:49.210 --> 00:01:52.570 pre counting automation and embedded payments 30 00:01:52.890 --> 00:01:56.730 all wrapped in a user first experience. They've 31 00:01:56.730 --> 00:02:00.490 issued over 300,000 credit cards, raised 32 00:02:00.570 --> 00:02:04.370 180 million in venture capital from the likes of Vala 33 00:02:04.370 --> 00:02:07.970 Ventures and Cherry Ventures and now processes more than 34 00:02:07.970 --> 00:02:11.450 5 billion euro in annualized payment volume, 35 00:02:11.690 --> 00:02:15.370 all while maintaining Baffin's licensing and enterprise 36 00:02:15.370 --> 00:02:19.210 grade compliance. Ante brings a unique lens to this space 37 00:02:19.290 --> 00:02:23.010 with roots in investment banking and venture capital, plus the 38 00:02:23.010 --> 00:02:25.850 scars and lessons of building a high profile growth 39 00:02:26.090 --> 00:02:29.850 fintech from ground up. Today we unpack his 40 00:02:29.850 --> 00:02:33.410 founder story, most products, evolution and the high stakes future 41 00:02:33.410 --> 00:02:37.210 of AI powered finance for SMBs. Ante, great 42 00:02:37.210 --> 00:02:40.570 to have you on startup radio. Welcome to the show. Hello Jern. 43 00:02:40.810 --> 00:02:44.500 Likewise. Very glad to be here. This was quite an 44 00:02:44.500 --> 00:02:48.100 introduction. I really like that one. And of course 45 00:02:48.100 --> 00:02:51.900 we'll dig a little bit deeper but let me 46 00:02:51.900 --> 00:02:55.660 start out with asking. You were once deep in fines like 47 00:02:55.660 --> 00:02:59.300 investment banking, VC consulting. What was the specific 48 00:02:59.380 --> 00:03:02.820 pain or moment that make you say ah, forget spreadsheets, 49 00:03:02.980 --> 00:03:06.780 let's rebuild finance ops from scratch for European small 50 00:03:06.780 --> 00:03:10.430 and medium businesses at the typical frustration of 51 00:03:10.430 --> 00:03:14.110 an analyst or investor with Excel doesn't 52 00:03:14.110 --> 00:03:16.150 count. Everybody experiences that. 53 00:03:18.870 --> 00:03:22.510 Yeah, it's a honestly things came 54 00:03:22.510 --> 00:03:26.190 Together while I was building my prior business together 55 00:03:26.190 --> 00:03:29.590 with Anton, who is also co founder in this company. 56 00:03:31.110 --> 00:03:34.700 And it was a marketplace startup. We 57 00:03:34.700 --> 00:03:38.540 grew very quickly to decent size. So within the first two 58 00:03:38.540 --> 00:03:42.100 years we had more than 25 million revenue. And 59 00:03:42.100 --> 00:03:44.580 everything was centered around expansion. 60 00:03:45.860 --> 00:03:48.340 As you can imagine, what was really behind 61 00:03:49.460 --> 00:03:52.980 was our finance setup. So after 62 00:03:52.980 --> 00:03:55.700 18 months, 18, 24 months, 63 00:03:56.820 --> 00:04:00.180 we realized if we don't get a grip on 64 00:04:00.180 --> 00:04:03.380 finance now, it's going to kill us, like literally. 65 00:04:04.150 --> 00:04:07.590 Um, and then, so what followed was a significant 66 00:04:07.910 --> 00:04:11.350 cleanup with temporary resources, you know, our 67 00:04:11.350 --> 00:04:15.110 internal team trying to find invoices, receipts. 68 00:04:15.110 --> 00:04:18.910 It was a total chaos and it took, I would 69 00:04:18.910 --> 00:04:22.710 say at least six months to clean up and another six months to, you know, 70 00:04:22.710 --> 00:04:25.430 properly close the books and run to the audit. 71 00:04:26.470 --> 00:04:30.150 And, and I think this was the moment that that kind of sparked 72 00:04:30.150 --> 00:04:33.660 my hate and passion, if I may say, 73 00:04:34.060 --> 00:04:37.180 hate for the situation we had, but also the passion for 74 00:04:37.660 --> 00:04:41.500 there needs to be a better way. And then it took a while longer 75 00:04:41.820 --> 00:04:45.180 until it really became the vision for Moss. 76 00:04:45.660 --> 00:04:49.260 So it was not that right after I got 77 00:04:49.260 --> 00:04:52.900 extremely excited to continue with 78 00:04:52.900 --> 00:04:55.420 the finance suite. Instead 79 00:04:56.540 --> 00:05:00.110 I spent a year in venture capital and, and they realized 80 00:05:00.430 --> 00:05:04.110 it's a ton of other companies that have very similar pains. 81 00:05:04.510 --> 00:05:08.270 And this is what together has led to 82 00:05:08.750 --> 00:05:12.550 actually launching the company. Thinking about the vision, thinking 83 00:05:12.550 --> 00:05:16.070 about the first product. And yeah, now six years later, 84 00:05:16.070 --> 00:05:19.710 we're still here. Actually, when you talked about 85 00:05:19.710 --> 00:05:23.350 the love hate relationship with the finance 86 00:05:23.350 --> 00:05:26.870 department, in my mind there was somebody looking very much like 87 00:05:26.870 --> 00:05:30.700 Sigmund Freud wearing glasses and ask, could you, 88 00:05:30.770 --> 00:05:34.530 could you elaborate at your love hate relationship there? But 89 00:05:34.690 --> 00:05:38.290 let's forget about that. You 90 00:05:38.290 --> 00:05:42.130 guys must launch with bold ambitions, corporate cards, 91 00:05:42.130 --> 00:05:45.970 automation and now full spend orchestration. What was 92 00:05:45.970 --> 00:05:49.570 the first moment with friction make you doubt whether 93 00:05:49.890 --> 00:05:53.730 European SMEs were ready for this shift? 94 00:05:54.770 --> 00:05:58.070 Look, honestly, the market is still 95 00:05:58.310 --> 00:06:02.110 fairly early if you think about the customer adoption 96 00:06:02.110 --> 00:06:05.910 curve. Yeah, so the famous S curve, we're still pretty far on 97 00:06:05.910 --> 00:06:09.710 the left. And the main competitor has 98 00:06:09.710 --> 00:06:12.630 been and still is manual 99 00:06:12.709 --> 00:06:16.470 workflows, it's literally Excel, it's email 100 00:06:17.270 --> 00:06:21.110 signature folders, especially with SMBs. So basically 101 00:06:21.190 --> 00:06:24.990 everything that finance teams has found as a workaround to get 102 00:06:24.990 --> 00:06:27.730 the job done. And 103 00:06:30.130 --> 00:06:33.250 after we started, we managed to launch this 104 00:06:33.730 --> 00:06:37.450 first incredible product. Yeah, and we were super lucky that we actually also 105 00:06:37.450 --> 00:06:41.130 started with that product. And it was a cards issuing platform, a 106 00:06:41.130 --> 00:06:44.690 cards management platform, as you said. And then on top, the expense, 107 00:06:44.770 --> 00:06:48.490 expense tooling. So how can I process the receipts, how can I connect with 108 00:06:48.490 --> 00:06:51.810 finance and. All of those Things we may add 109 00:06:52.290 --> 00:06:55.120 most people, 80, 80% here from 110 00:06:55.920 --> 00:06:59.520 listeners at least on the audio podcast, are from Germany, Austria and 111 00:06:59.520 --> 00:07:03.160 Switzerland. But we do have a lot of viewers, especially on long 112 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:06.920 form YouTube, who are not familiar with the system. So basically you 113 00:07:06.920 --> 00:07:10.240 first make your card expenses and then you have to 114 00:07:10.640 --> 00:07:14.360 get also for the tax authorities, a receipt, an 115 00:07:14.360 --> 00:07:18.160 invoice that matches this expense. And you have to do this depending 116 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:21.720 on your size and every month, every quarter, every year. 117 00:07:22.200 --> 00:07:25.640 And it's a big headache. It's one of the reasons I have fewer hairs. 118 00:07:27.640 --> 00:07:31.360 Yeah, like one really interesting point. And 119 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:34.680 honestly, I only got to learn this a bit later. Yeah, I realize. Yeah, it's 120 00:07:34.680 --> 00:07:38.440 so obvious. But then somehow it's also so crazy. In business, 121 00:07:39.160 --> 00:07:42.960 every single transaction, no matter if you spend five bucks on 122 00:07:42.960 --> 00:07:46.560 a coffee or if you buy a lunch for a client or if you 123 00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.400 invest hundreds of thousands or millions in machinery, 124 00:07:50.430 --> 00:07:53.950 everything has to be administered. Like every euro, there is no black, 125 00:07:54.030 --> 00:07:57.830 there is no hole in the, in the cash. You know, like it's, everything 126 00:07:57.830 --> 00:08:01.630 needs to be done. So having said that, the administration 127 00:08:01.950 --> 00:08:05.670 is very significant burden. And now to get 128 00:08:05.670 --> 00:08:09.230 back kind of to your question, the biggest, 129 00:08:09.310 --> 00:08:12.590 the biggest point of friction, the biggest question for us was 130 00:08:13.070 --> 00:08:16.030 will we be able to pass beyond 131 00:08:16.950 --> 00:08:20.670 that cards platform and being a cards and spend 132 00:08:20.670 --> 00:08:24.310 management company to becoming a much bigger finance suite? 133 00:08:24.310 --> 00:08:28.150 Because of course, the vision was to go into this bigger finance suite 134 00:08:28.230 --> 00:08:31.910 and the vision was to be able to tailor to accountants 135 00:08:31.910 --> 00:08:35.750 and controllers for a much bigger, much bigger domain. 136 00:08:36.870 --> 00:08:40.630 And, and this was a tough ride. Yeah. So once you have 137 00:08:40.630 --> 00:08:44.430 the first product, when it works, getting to the next one is 138 00:08:44.430 --> 00:08:47.450 almost like starting a new company. Yeah. It was a pretty significant 139 00:08:48.170 --> 00:08:52.010 kind of learning experience and point of friction for us. And also doubt. 140 00:08:52.010 --> 00:08:55.370 Yeah. On how the European SMEs will react. 141 00:08:57.850 --> 00:09:01.450 You moved from an investor to 142 00:09:01.450 --> 00:09:04.570 operator, from finance theory to 143 00:09:04.570 --> 00:09:07.930 infrastructure execution. How did 144 00:09:08.170 --> 00:09:11.930 becoming a founder and especially a regulated fintech 145 00:09:11.930 --> 00:09:15.130 CEO r reshape how you saw yourself and your work? 146 00:09:16.570 --> 00:09:20.330 Yeah, look, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's very hard. Yeah. 147 00:09:20.330 --> 00:09:24.130 The job is very hard and it's very demanding. I guess it's true for 148 00:09:24.130 --> 00:09:27.530 many jobs, but I need to say it's particularly hard and demanding 149 00:09:28.250 --> 00:09:31.690 based on my experience. And the crazy thing is 150 00:09:31.930 --> 00:09:35.130 the role changes constantly all the time. 151 00:09:35.450 --> 00:09:39.220 Yeah. So with every new wave of hires, the, 152 00:09:39.370 --> 00:09:43.050 with every new executive that joins the team, with every new 153 00:09:43.050 --> 00:09:46.850 priority for the quarterly OKR cycle, for the strategy for 154 00:09:46.850 --> 00:09:50.690 the next year, a new market entry, every new kind 155 00:09:50.690 --> 00:09:54.170 of fire in a Team is always changing 156 00:09:54.330 --> 00:09:57.770 your priorities as a CEO. It will always impact on 157 00:09:58.410 --> 00:10:02.090 which decisions you take, what you focus on, et cetera, et cetera. 158 00:10:02.410 --> 00:10:05.380 So what it really taught me is to become 159 00:10:06.100 --> 00:10:09.860 multivariate. Yeah. It sounds now very technical, but basically 160 00:10:10.340 --> 00:10:14.020 be able to switch context very quickly. So now we're 161 00:10:14.020 --> 00:10:17.420 recording this podcast. After that, it's going to be something 162 00:10:17.420 --> 00:10:21.180 entirely different. Yeah. I'm not going to have a coffee with a different 163 00:10:21.180 --> 00:10:24.340 reporter. But also to take decisions 164 00:10:25.140 --> 00:10:28.780 fast. Yeah. Especially the small ones. But then take a lot more 165 00:10:28.780 --> 00:10:32.260 time for the tougher decisions to shape culture. 166 00:10:32.420 --> 00:10:36.260 Like things that never were on my agenda. Right. As a consultant or 167 00:10:36.420 --> 00:10:40.260 in any other profession, you're basically kind of getting 168 00:10:40.340 --> 00:10:43.940 shaped by the culture and not you're responsible for shaping that 169 00:10:43.940 --> 00:10:47.620 culture. So what I want to say is it's a 170 00:10:47.620 --> 00:10:51.340 ton of setbacks. You have to live with those. You have to develop a 171 00:10:51.340 --> 00:10:55.100 positive mindset. Yeah. Otherwise you go crazy. And 172 00:10:55.100 --> 00:10:58.390 you need a fighter attitude. Yeah. It needs to be this 173 00:10:58.390 --> 00:11:01.310 willingness to win, the willingness to fight, 174 00:11:02.350 --> 00:11:05.990 because there is a market, there are players, and 175 00:11:05.990 --> 00:11:09.710 you are the new kid on the block. Yeah. You want to achieve something great, 176 00:11:09.790 --> 00:11:12.990 but you're nothing. You have maybe some cash from a 177 00:11:12.990 --> 00:11:16.750 fundraiser, you have a couple of people on your team, and now you want to 178 00:11:16.750 --> 00:11:19.230 become something big. And this kind of 179 00:11:20.510 --> 00:11:23.640 is, I think, one of the main ways 180 00:11:24.280 --> 00:11:27.880 how it shaped me personally. Yeah. And also professionally. 181 00:11:29.560 --> 00:11:33.400 Yeah. Just trying to think this through. When you 182 00:11:33.400 --> 00:11:37.080 talked about a new executive coming into the team, it's like when you have 183 00:11:37.080 --> 00:11:40.280 a new team member, some of your jobs get 184 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:44.280 absorbed by this person. You get to do more, but also 185 00:11:44.280 --> 00:11:48.000 you have to think more, because it's not that you need to write 186 00:11:48.000 --> 00:11:51.710 email, abc, but you need to tell this person what 187 00:11:51.710 --> 00:11:55.230 to achieve in a month, in a year, and so on and so forth. So 188 00:11:55.230 --> 00:11:57.150 you need much more time to think ahead. 189 00:11:59.310 --> 00:12:02.670 Yeah, 100%. And it changes dynamics because 190 00:12:02.990 --> 00:12:06.750 maybe first you were also execution responsible. Yeah. 191 00:12:06.750 --> 00:12:10.510 So maybe first you were the person that worked together with the team on 192 00:12:10.510 --> 00:12:14.310 getting the job done, and now suddenly it's exactly what you said. Suddenly 193 00:12:14.310 --> 00:12:18.080 you're the context giver. Yeah. You're direction giver. You kind 194 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:21.880 of. You're the control tower. To make sure we stay on course. You work 195 00:12:21.880 --> 00:12:24.840 together, you help. Yeah. And this is. And this is 196 00:12:25.160 --> 00:12:28.360 constantly changing as the company 197 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:32.240 evolves. Yeah. From. From good to bad. I actually like 198 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.960 the picture of the control tower. Because you're avoiding the crash. Yeah, 199 00:12:35.960 --> 00:12:39.760 of course. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's. Especially with 200 00:12:39.760 --> 00:12:43.140 tech companies where one of the key strengths Is to be 201 00:12:43.140 --> 00:12:46.980 agile. Yeah. So one of the key strengths is to learn fast, to break 202 00:12:46.980 --> 00:12:50.220 things, to iterate from there. Which also means 203 00:12:50.220 --> 00:12:53.980 realize where things maybe are not going not on the right path. 204 00:12:54.060 --> 00:12:56.260 Yeah. And I can give you, if you like, and give you like a very 205 00:12:56.260 --> 00:12:59.260 clear example. We once 206 00:13:00.300 --> 00:13:04.060 decided to focus on a customer segment that was a bit outside 207 00:13:04.140 --> 00:13:07.740 of our ideal customer profile. And, and that 208 00:13:07.740 --> 00:13:11.380 customer segment faced a little bit lower complexity in 209 00:13:11.380 --> 00:13:14.660 finance, but actually, you know, 210 00:13:14.980 --> 00:13:18.660 had some of the pains. And we went 211 00:13:18.660 --> 00:13:22.460 after that segment and tested how is it 212 00:13:22.460 --> 00:13:26.180 reacting now? Once we had enough learnings to know what works, what 213 00:13:26.180 --> 00:13:29.620 doesn't work. It's so mission critical to make sure that this information 214 00:13:29.780 --> 00:13:33.540 tickles across all of the teams. Because the marketing team is going to 215 00:13:33.540 --> 00:13:37.180 continue driving, driving traffic, they're going to train your 216 00:13:37.180 --> 00:13:40.860 driving, investing and same on an outbound sales motion. They need to 217 00:13:40.860 --> 00:13:44.340 know whether they should continue focusing or not. So 218 00:13:45.300 --> 00:13:47.540 it's really hard to keep this communication 219 00:13:49.060 --> 00:13:52.900 best in class to make sure that everybody has the context 220 00:13:52.900 --> 00:13:56.620 and knows what they have to do in this very quickly changing 221 00:13:56.620 --> 00:14:00.340 dynamics. And I was wondering, 222 00:14:00.340 --> 00:14:03.780 because I've seen quite frequently when I was still a 223 00:14:03.780 --> 00:14:06.890 consultant in large companies that you did this with regular calls, 224 00:14:08.160 --> 00:14:11.760 weekly or monthly, where people participated and 225 00:14:12.240 --> 00:14:15.800 they worked through items, but actually they 226 00:14:15.800 --> 00:14:19.480 tended to get bloated and bloated and you could hear the 227 00:14:19.480 --> 00:14:22.720 people not paying attention and tapping in the background and all that stuff. 228 00:14:23.520 --> 00:14:27.040 Have you found a better way to do that? You mean 229 00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:29.600 with my team or for myself? Both. 230 00:14:30.880 --> 00:14:34.570 Yeah. So look, I'm really, really, really 231 00:14:34.570 --> 00:14:38.370 bad at multitasking. Anybody 232 00:14:38.370 --> 00:14:42.050 will confirm. So the only way is don't 233 00:14:42.050 --> 00:14:45.570 even try. And this is going to avoid the 234 00:14:45.570 --> 00:14:49.370 typing, it's going to avoid the confusion and if it happens, people 235 00:14:49.370 --> 00:14:53.050 will realize immediately and it's not going to be supportive. 236 00:14:53.370 --> 00:14:57.170 So for me personally, it's 100% presence. If you're 237 00:14:57.170 --> 00:15:00.880 doing it, just be present, take your notes, be, 238 00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:04.840 you know, pay a ton of attention, etc, etc. On 239 00:15:04.840 --> 00:15:08.640 the other side, I guess there is, I don't 240 00:15:08.640 --> 00:15:12.000 know, it's difficult. Right. Ideally you don't want to have so big calls. Right. You 241 00:15:12.000 --> 00:15:14.720 don't want to have calls where there are eight to 10 people on it 242 00:15:15.680 --> 00:15:19.280 and especially not if people have the time to do other 243 00:15:19.280 --> 00:15:22.960 stuff on the sides. Yeah. Then it sounds almost like the audience is too 244 00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:26.680 big. So maybe, maybe what we try to do is we try to 245 00:15:26.680 --> 00:15:30.390 steer kind of ex ante on what is the audience, how 246 00:15:30.390 --> 00:15:33.590 can we keep it to the ones that are actually working on it, designing it, 247 00:15:33.590 --> 00:15:36.990 because then There is almost like no chance to escape. 248 00:15:38.670 --> 00:15:42.310 I'm personally always torn between doing such calls 249 00:15:42.310 --> 00:15:45.710 with, as you already said, the smallest possible audience 250 00:15:46.030 --> 00:15:49.750 or working with stuff like to do lists where you just send around to do 251 00:15:49.750 --> 00:15:53.110 lists. But the problem is then always people lack the 252 00:15:53.110 --> 00:15:56.740 context there or misinterpret interpret what is there. 253 00:15:57.220 --> 00:15:59.380 Yeah, yeah, the context setting is really important 254 00:16:00.900 --> 00:16:04.500 but I guess like the, the magic lies somewhere in the middle. 255 00:16:04.660 --> 00:16:08.180 Yeah. So async, 256 00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:12.180 Async, whatever can be done, especially in written form. I think 257 00:16:12.180 --> 00:16:16.020 sometimes written form can reinforce things and bring things also back 258 00:16:16.020 --> 00:16:19.860 on the same page later really, really effectively. But then 259 00:16:19.860 --> 00:16:23.260 when, when there is a, the benefit of a discussion, benefit of 260 00:16:23.260 --> 00:16:26.460 questions, then probably it's better to, to just jump on the meeting. 261 00:16:28.540 --> 00:16:32.060 Exactly. From our awesome audience, I would like to know 262 00:16:32.140 --> 00:16:35.900 what moment made you believe in your startup, share in the comments 263 00:16:35.900 --> 00:16:37.580 or tag us on social media 264 00:16:39.420 --> 00:16:43.220 until your darkest day. Moss made headlines with 265 00:16:43.220 --> 00:16:46.940 layoffs like many other scale ups navigating the Fintech 266 00:16:46.940 --> 00:16:50.730 winter. Take us to that day. What was 267 00:16:50.810 --> 00:16:53.930 happening behind the scenes and what helped you push forward? 268 00:16:54.650 --> 00:16:57.970 Yeah, it was horrible. Honestly it was 269 00:16:57.970 --> 00:17:01.650 horrible, especially because in total it took 12 to 270 00:17:01.650 --> 00:17:05.410 18 months. So we're not speaking about one specific day, we're 271 00:17:05.410 --> 00:17:08.770 speaking about the whole journey that the company has to go through and that we 272 00:17:08.770 --> 00:17:12.250 also had to go through. The context was 273 00:17:12.650 --> 00:17:15.850 fairly straightforward. Markets turned, 274 00:17:16.430 --> 00:17:18.670 we were over optimized on growth 275 00:17:20.030 --> 00:17:23.310 and that setup was not fit for purpose anymore. The burn 276 00:17:23.550 --> 00:17:26.430 relative to growth ambitions and especially to 277 00:17:27.150 --> 00:17:30.910 cash. And the years of Runway was not in line. So 278 00:17:30.910 --> 00:17:34.510 we had to take action on the other 279 00:17:34.510 --> 00:17:38.150 side. We also made this promise. Right. So we 280 00:17:38.150 --> 00:17:41.630 hired people, we kind of gave them an implicit or even 281 00:17:41.630 --> 00:17:45.300 explicit promise. We're going to do our best to try to 282 00:17:45.300 --> 00:17:48.820 make this company and you successful. Yeah, we're going to try to 283 00:17:49.940 --> 00:17:53.740 coach you, to train you, to develop you, but we're also going to want to 284 00:17:53.740 --> 00:17:57.340 create equity value in this company. And then we had 285 00:17:57.340 --> 00:18:01.020 investors that gave us a ton of money that we 286 00:18:01.020 --> 00:18:04.620 also promised we're going to do something great with that money. It's a 287 00:18:04.620 --> 00:18:07.940 gene is the right roi, you know, you should invest here. 288 00:18:08.420 --> 00:18:12.210 So honestly, there was also not really a way out. Yeah, 289 00:18:12.210 --> 00:18:15.370 I think if you're serious about those things and if you're more accomplished, it's kind 290 00:18:15.370 --> 00:18:19.090 of on the, on the fighter side. When it's uncomfortable, 291 00:18:19.090 --> 00:18:22.130 you will still have to grind through it and. 292 00:18:22.850 --> 00:18:26.370 Yeah. And then we just had to get our shit together. Yeah. 293 00:18:26.370 --> 00:18:30.050 Honestly and literally we had to understand 294 00:18:30.210 --> 00:18:33.490 where to think about what is the Future, that is a must have. 295 00:18:33.970 --> 00:18:37.730 What are the strategic priors? What is the team set 296 00:18:37.730 --> 00:18:41.130 up? What are the regrets? And no regrets. 297 00:18:42.170 --> 00:18:45.770 Calculate this through, you know, through business case sessions and 298 00:18:46.010 --> 00:18:49.690 everything that's needed. Discuss with the board, discuss with 299 00:18:49.690 --> 00:18:53.370 people, team. Think about all of the consequences that it means for 300 00:18:53.850 --> 00:18:57.690 the employees. You know, it's like, it's pretty significant. Yeah. Because 301 00:18:57.690 --> 00:19:01.410 the market was in a downturn in general. So I would 302 00:19:01.410 --> 00:19:05.250 say very heavy lifting and deliberate thinking 303 00:19:05.250 --> 00:19:08.970 with many backs and forwards to then kind 304 00:19:08.970 --> 00:19:12.650 of pull through. And now kind 305 00:19:12.650 --> 00:19:16.250 of the second wave, second phase starts. Yeah. So 306 00:19:16.250 --> 00:19:19.770 now you kind of completed your first milestone. The 307 00:19:19.770 --> 00:19:23.330 culture needs to get, needs to be brought back on track. And 308 00:19:23.330 --> 00:19:27.050 that's very, very, very hard. So here we learned our most painful 309 00:19:27.050 --> 00:19:30.870 lessons. How, how to get the 310 00:19:30.870 --> 00:19:34.710 motivation back when effectively there was a 311 00:19:34.710 --> 00:19:37.790 severe issue. Yeah. When effectively things failed. 312 00:19:38.910 --> 00:19:42.670 And, and this took a year. Now it's very. Now it's great 313 00:19:42.670 --> 00:19:46.430 again. We are, we're so happy. Energy level is super high. Team is, 314 00:19:46.590 --> 00:19:50.390 is motivated, pumped company grows. All of those things are now in 315 00:19:50.390 --> 00:19:54.150 a good spot. But to get there was a very slow, 316 00:19:54.150 --> 00:19:55.630 gradual and painful process. 317 00:19:58.390 --> 00:20:02.230 You already talked in the beginning that you have a co founder. Let's talk a 318 00:20:02.230 --> 00:20:05.990 little bit about the team demanding dynamics here. Moss scaled 319 00:20:05.990 --> 00:20:09.750 to 250 plus people, processed over 5 billion euro 320 00:20:09.750 --> 00:20:13.030 in payments and added key leaders like jan 321 00:20:13.030 --> 00:20:16.310 Stehler from N26. What was 322 00:20:16.710 --> 00:20:20.430 a painful lesson you learned about hiring trust or 323 00:20:20.430 --> 00:20:24.180 involving your leadership team? Yeah. So 324 00:20:24.820 --> 00:20:27.540 as I said before, the switch from 325 00:20:28.100 --> 00:20:31.780 individual contributor, even like a co founder, mostly in the beginning 326 00:20:31.780 --> 00:20:34.660 you just execute to a manager is pretty painful. 327 00:20:35.620 --> 00:20:39.420 And I think the biggest kind of thing we had 328 00:20:39.420 --> 00:20:43.220 to accept is it's hard skills and it's not talent or 329 00:20:43.220 --> 00:20:46.940 soft skills or whatsoever. Yeah, they come into play a little bit. But there is 330 00:20:46.940 --> 00:20:49.470 a, it's a hard skill to manage other people 331 00:20:50.750 --> 00:20:54.510 and to do it right. Yeah. And at the starting point, 332 00:20:55.790 --> 00:20:59.430 what is, I think is the most important element is the hiring 333 00:20:59.430 --> 00:21:03.270 process itself. It's about the talent bar that is set. It's about the 334 00:21:03.270 --> 00:21:06.830 expectations being very, very clear. What do we actually need? 335 00:21:07.390 --> 00:21:10.750 What is the type of profile? What should they have seen in the past? 336 00:21:10.990 --> 00:21:14.790 What is the minimum experience level? What are also markers 337 00:21:14.790 --> 00:21:18.390 that make me believe that this candidate is worth speaking 338 00:21:18.950 --> 00:21:22.790 and is more kind of interesting versus someone else. Right. Because 339 00:21:22.790 --> 00:21:26.070 we have a. There is a huge market out there. Out there. 340 00:21:27.270 --> 00:21:30.990 How does best in class look like? You know, like I'm sure 341 00:21:30.990 --> 00:21:34.310 you had the situation where you interviewed someone and you 342 00:21:34.310 --> 00:21:38.070 realized I must hire that person. Yeah. It's like it's this 343 00:21:38.630 --> 00:21:42.190 very rare case and the 1% or whatsoever where you're so 344 00:21:42.190 --> 00:21:45.830 excited you think this is the perfect fit. So how can I make sure that 345 00:21:45.830 --> 00:21:48.990 that best in class kind of is visible at scale? 346 00:21:50.750 --> 00:21:54.390 This I think is really number one. But then what comes next 347 00:21:54.390 --> 00:21:57.790 is the onboarding journey. And I think here 348 00:21:58.430 --> 00:22:02.230 we made mistakes pretty significant and I think almost everyone has 349 00:22:02.230 --> 00:22:04.990 made those mistakes unless they are already much further in their career. 350 00:22:06.030 --> 00:22:09.510 It's so much context that is centered in your 351 00:22:09.510 --> 00:22:13.360 heads that only you have. It's. Yeah. Or your co founder or a couple of 352 00:22:13.360 --> 00:22:16.600 people in the company that needs to make a transition. 353 00:22:16.920 --> 00:22:20.040 Right. So for the new leader to do a good job, 354 00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:25.120 they almost need the same context that you have. Yeah. And 355 00:22:25.120 --> 00:22:28.800 it's how to do this while everything is moving fast, while 356 00:22:28.800 --> 00:22:32.640 you're super busy, while you need to kind of give them the right information at 357 00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:35.960 the right time, keep them focused, you know, plug in other people, 358 00:22:37.560 --> 00:22:41.220 I think is very, very, very, very hard. So I would 359 00:22:41.220 --> 00:22:44.780 say the, the most painful lesson has 360 00:22:44.780 --> 00:22:48.420 indeed been mainly around being really good 361 00:22:48.580 --> 00:22:52.420 in onboarding. It's too expensive if it fails. The first 362 00:22:52.500 --> 00:22:55.860 few days, the first month, they're decisive in 363 00:22:56.100 --> 00:22:59.940 what kind of habits people get in. And that's actually 364 00:23:00.260 --> 00:23:03.620 we want to set it up properly so that people can really 365 00:23:03.940 --> 00:23:07.780 understand who is there. It doesn't help if you get hired 366 00:23:07.780 --> 00:23:11.600 and your boss is not there for the first two. You 367 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:15.280 just by habit report to somebody else and when the new boss comes back, 368 00:23:15.280 --> 00:23:18.320 you'd still talk more to the other person. That's for example, something 369 00:23:18.800 --> 00:23:22.320 I have experience which is not great. 370 00:23:23.600 --> 00:23:27.359 Let's talk a little bit about emotional toll. You're building 371 00:23:27.360 --> 00:23:30.880 a highly. In a highly regulated space with 372 00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.560 aggressive growth and investor expectations. How 373 00:23:34.560 --> 00:23:38.320 has this journey impacted your professional identity, 374 00:23:38.320 --> 00:23:41.820 mental health or family life, especially as a 375 00:23:41.820 --> 00:23:45.580 father? Yeah. It's kind of the magic 376 00:23:45.580 --> 00:23:49.420 question. Right. And how 377 00:23:49.420 --> 00:23:52.740 I like to boil it down. Then I'm going to give you some specifics. Yeah. 378 00:23:53.140 --> 00:23:56.500 But how I like to boil it down and challenge myself is 379 00:23:56.740 --> 00:24:00.580 am I happy in the current setup? So how it's going 380 00:24:00.580 --> 00:24:03.140 right now, is this giving me happiness and joy 381 00:24:04.660 --> 00:24:08.420 or is it not? And fortunately I can still answer the 382 00:24:08.420 --> 00:24:12.180 question with yes. Like I do not want to be. I really want to 383 00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:15.860 run this company. I really want to work my founders with all of the 384 00:24:15.860 --> 00:24:19.580 colleagues here. I love the mission, I really enjoy working 385 00:24:19.580 --> 00:24:23.340 on finance, etc. Etc. Etc. There is a 386 00:24:23.340 --> 00:24:27.060 big however though. Yeah. And the however is it has a lot 387 00:24:27.060 --> 00:24:30.220 of cost yeah. So first, first 388 00:24:30.700 --> 00:24:34.220 in the first two years of my, of my first son and then also second 389 00:24:34.220 --> 00:24:37.180 son got born roughly 15 months later. 390 00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:42.160 I did not sufficiently see them. Yeah. So I had to pay the 391 00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:45.680 price of not being sufficiently there. And only 392 00:24:45.760 --> 00:24:49.320 after those two years I caught up with some paternity leave. 393 00:24:49.320 --> 00:24:51.840 Yeah. A month. A month to spend with the kids. 394 00:24:53.600 --> 00:24:57.080 And this was not a good thing. Yeah. I want to clearly say this was, 395 00:24:57.080 --> 00:25:00.400 this was a big cost to carry, 396 00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:05.200 but I also miss my tennis routine, you know, in many cases or 397 00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:07.880 I deprioritized. So. 398 00:25:08.760 --> 00:25:11.640 So one part of the learning journey was also 399 00:25:12.360 --> 00:25:16.080 it's not going to be sustainable. It's not going to work long term. And 400 00:25:16.080 --> 00:25:19.799 in particular it will not. You will not be able to answer the question 401 00:25:19.800 --> 00:25:23.320 of are you happy with the setup? With the. Yes. If 402 00:25:23.640 --> 00:25:26.040 there is no balance. Yeah. So right now, 403 00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:30.980 in the last two years basically revise some of those 404 00:25:30.980 --> 00:25:34.180 decisions. Yeah. And how to approach it 405 00:25:34.900 --> 00:25:38.660 and have found some more balance. It doesn't mean it's a good work life 406 00:25:38.660 --> 00:25:42.420 balance. It's horrible with two small kids and 407 00:25:42.420 --> 00:25:46.100 the company to run. But the sacrifices are 408 00:25:46.100 --> 00:25:49.780 very, you know, are different. Yeah. So maybe 409 00:25:49.780 --> 00:25:53.260 it's seeing some friends less often. Maybe it's 410 00:25:53.260 --> 00:25:56.720 skipping a conference or, or, or a 411 00:25:56.720 --> 00:26:00.120 dinner. Yeah, attack dinner in the evening. Maybe it's something, you know, it's like other 412 00:26:00.120 --> 00:26:03.880 things you can still control to make sure 413 00:26:04.280 --> 00:26:07.800 you don't go mad. Yes, I know 414 00:26:07.800 --> 00:26:11.599 exactly what you mean. That's also something I had to learn. For 415 00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:15.240 example, what I. I've been adjusting my whole 416 00:26:15.560 --> 00:26:19.120 lifestyle, my whole life. For example, before 9 417 00:26:19.120 --> 00:26:22.640 I usually don't do any course because I drop off my. My two 418 00:26:22.640 --> 00:26:26.460 sons at kindergarten. Mondays I get to 419 00:26:26.460 --> 00:26:30.020 sleep in because my wife gets also a day on the weekend. 420 00:26:30.100 --> 00:26:33.860 And so I get up late, I do lunch and then I start working because 421 00:26:33.860 --> 00:26:37.580 I do have a lot of customers and clients 422 00:26:37.580 --> 00:26:40.740 in the US and they like to do really late calls. 423 00:26:41.300 --> 00:26:44.932 And so on Mondays they can book me until like 23:00 424 00:26:45.028 --> 00:26:48.740 o'clock in the evening on Mondays. But you cannot do this 425 00:26:48.740 --> 00:26:51.540 by starting at 9am Plus I also 426 00:26:52.870 --> 00:26:56.310 learned the really hard way that you have to take off the weekends, at least 427 00:26:56.310 --> 00:26:59.950 for me. No work, no work emails and 428 00:26:59.950 --> 00:27:03.750 stuff like that. There was a tough lot, tough 429 00:27:03.830 --> 00:27:07.630 thing to learn. But in the beginning you just work, work, work and then at 430 00:27:07.630 --> 00:27:10.470 one point your body screams no, stop. 431 00:27:11.590 --> 00:27:15.230 That's something exactly I learned as well. Guys, we'll be 432 00:27:15.230 --> 00:27:19.070 back after a short app break talking, for example, about a make or 433 00:27:19.070 --> 00:27:22.870 break moment. Founder misconceptions and market 434 00:27:22.870 --> 00:27:23.670 surprises. 435 00:27:29.590 --> 00:27:33.270 Hey guys, welcome back with Ant, the CEO and co 436 00:27:33.270 --> 00:27:36.710 founder of Moss, a Berlin based fintech startup 437 00:27:36.870 --> 00:27:40.430 that raised 180 million years so far from 438 00:27:40.430 --> 00:27:44.270 investors including Cherry Ventures. We linked it here in the show notes 439 00:27:44.270 --> 00:27:47.790 our interview with Cherry and Peter Thiel's Vala 440 00:27:47.790 --> 00:27:51.640 Ventures. Ante, let's talk about a make 441 00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:54.440 or break moment. Was there a point 442 00:27:55.560 --> 00:27:58.760 perhaps during the rebrand or during 443 00:27:58.840 --> 00:28:02.440 regulatory approval where you had to 444 00:28:02.440 --> 00:28:05.640 decide do we pivot, 445 00:28:05.960 --> 00:28:09.080 pause or push through no matter what? 446 00:28:12.840 --> 00:28:15.560 We had many of those moments 447 00:28:18.290 --> 00:28:21.810 and the earlier you take them kind of the smaller the moment is. 448 00:28:22.610 --> 00:28:26.130 This is kind of a little bit of the philosophy that we have. It's a 449 00:28:26.130 --> 00:28:29.970 continuum. So by being on top of 450 00:28:29.970 --> 00:28:33.410 data, by being on top of kind of the strategy and what actually 451 00:28:33.810 --> 00:28:37.570 needs to be done, what the vision is, and then following through 452 00:28:37.570 --> 00:28:41.250 with early signals, we had multiple of those points. 453 00:28:41.700 --> 00:28:45.220 Yeah. So we, we, we, we asked ourselves, for example, 454 00:28:48.660 --> 00:28:52.180 shall we expand more internationally? Yeah, like, 455 00:28:52.500 --> 00:28:56.300 very fundamental question. It's a massive distraction for all of the 456 00:28:56.300 --> 00:29:00.100 teams. The product needs to be brought up to speed. Ton of other, 457 00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:03.700 other reasons why it's a distraction, 458 00:29:03.860 --> 00:29:07.620 but also how it can drive revenue. The second big one was 459 00:29:08.320 --> 00:29:12.000 do we really go for our own license? Yeah. 460 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:15.760 Do we, do we, do we really want to get regulated and 461 00:29:15.840 --> 00:29:19.680 build the team that is needed to 462 00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:23.400 run to be compliant or do we rely 463 00:29:23.400 --> 00:29:27.120 on third parties? There is a banking as a service providers 464 00:29:28.320 --> 00:29:32.120 currently the question is when do we expand beyond spend 465 00:29:32.120 --> 00:29:35.800 management? This is a pivotal moment for the company as the product suite 466 00:29:35.800 --> 00:29:38.320 suddenly becomes much more comprehensive. So 467 00:29:39.700 --> 00:29:42.100 yeah, there are 100%, there are those moments 468 00:29:45.540 --> 00:29:48.340 and you will have to take a decision on do we do it or do 469 00:29:48.340 --> 00:29:51.940 we not do it. And hopefully most of those 470 00:29:52.020 --> 00:29:55.700 moments are happy moments. Hopefully. It's not a 471 00:29:55.700 --> 00:29:59.500 moment where you say we have to pause, we have to shut down the 472 00:29:59.500 --> 00:30:02.620 market, we have to shut down the product, we have to stop the company. This 473 00:30:02.620 --> 00:30:06.460 will be horrible. Of course. I see. 474 00:30:08.140 --> 00:30:11.860 Yeah, it's a steady fight. I would say that's also how 475 00:30:11.860 --> 00:30:15.500 it feels here. Talking a little bit about founder 476 00:30:15.660 --> 00:30:18.860 misconceptions, what did you 477 00:30:18.860 --> 00:30:22.540 absolutely misjudge in the early days of Moss? 478 00:30:22.620 --> 00:30:26.220 Either about the market, your customer, 479 00:30:26.380 --> 00:30:29.900 or what it takes to truly digitize a 480 00:30:29.900 --> 00:30:33.400 finance department. I can, I can, I can tell you a little 481 00:30:33.400 --> 00:30:37.080 secret that maybe it's not really a secret. Don't worry, 482 00:30:37.080 --> 00:30:40.640 it will be just between you and me and like 50,000 483 00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:44.360 listeners on the podcast. Yeah. Then that's 484 00:30:44.360 --> 00:30:46.320 fair. That's okay with this. Secret is fair. 485 00:30:48.080 --> 00:30:51.440 If someone has not. Not misjudged 486 00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:55.120 a ton of things, then they probably 487 00:30:55.680 --> 00:30:57.490 didn't start the business. 488 00:30:59.730 --> 00:31:03.290 The. My main point is it's. There is such 489 00:31:03.290 --> 00:31:06.450 a huge ocean of 490 00:31:06.450 --> 00:31:10.210 unknowns and there are so crazy big 491 00:31:10.210 --> 00:31:13.930 complexities that if you take them, if you look at them 492 00:31:13.930 --> 00:31:17.410 from a starting point, it's a wall that you cannot 493 00:31:17.410 --> 00:31:21.250 climb. There is no way you will ever launch 494 00:31:21.250 --> 00:31:25.060 a company. If you knew all of the obstacles, 495 00:31:25.060 --> 00:31:28.420 you would just not do it and no one would give you money for it. 496 00:31:28.420 --> 00:31:31.780 Yeah. So one 497 00:31:31.780 --> 00:31:35.420 example, we got super passionate about the broader 498 00:31:35.420 --> 00:31:38.980 finance suite. We had to find a minimum 499 00:31:38.980 --> 00:31:42.780 viable product, though. And it's this kind of. It's the one shot 500 00:31:42.780 --> 00:31:46.340 you have. You collect the seed funding, you build the first product. 501 00:31:46.420 --> 00:31:50.060 You want to show some traction. If you pick the wrong piece, you're 502 00:31:50.060 --> 00:31:53.600 dead. Yeah. And it can try to raise new money, but very likely it's not 503 00:31:53.600 --> 00:31:57.360 going to work. So we were 504 00:31:57.360 --> 00:32:00.760 super nervous about it, of course. And then we picked something 505 00:32:01.000 --> 00:32:04.480 that retrospectively was actually way too 506 00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:07.640 complex. Yeah. So we thought we can launch 507 00:32:08.280 --> 00:32:11.480 a next generation credit card like the first of its kind, 508 00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:15.640 but not in a way like banks do it. Yeah. American Express 509 00:32:15.800 --> 00:32:18.840 or any other bank. 510 00:32:20.300 --> 00:32:23.740 It was a platform where customers could issue 511 00:32:23.980 --> 00:32:27.420 physical virtual cards with one mouse click. 512 00:32:27.820 --> 00:32:31.660 Set limits. Do like a ton of stuff that you cannot even do. 513 00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:35.540 Yeah. Like this whole card issuing platform was just 514 00:32:35.540 --> 00:32:39.260 a beast. And then on top, it had the finance suite. 515 00:32:39.420 --> 00:32:42.780 Right. So how do I connect? How do I. How do I now attach receipts 516 00:32:42.780 --> 00:32:46.180 to single transactions? How do I assign accounting 517 00:32:46.180 --> 00:32:49.700 categories? How do I do the coding? How do I connect with Data or with 518 00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:53.320 NetSuite or with Exact. With Xero, like all of those ERP 519 00:32:53.320 --> 00:32:56.840 systems, we entirely 520 00:32:56.840 --> 00:33:00.280 misjudged the complexity of doing this. 521 00:33:01.400 --> 00:33:04.840 Fortunately, the consequence was it was just very 522 00:33:04.920 --> 00:33:08.680 painful and took a bit longer. But. 523 00:33:08.760 --> 00:33:12.600 But it still kind of worked out and we saw many of those things 524 00:33:12.600 --> 00:33:16.240 again. Yeah. I remember the day when we're sitting in the Cherry 525 00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:19.320 office. It was an off site. We always ask them if we can 526 00:33:20.220 --> 00:33:23.620 work in their big boardroom. They have a nice room. It's a bit 527 00:33:23.620 --> 00:33:27.100 detached from the office. So we go there and then we discuss the serious 528 00:33:27.100 --> 00:33:30.940 stuff. And I remember when we discussed the serious decision, when 529 00:33:30.940 --> 00:33:34.580 are we. Are we like, are we going to leave the territory of Amex and 530 00:33:34.580 --> 00:33:38.340 now expand into accounts payables or not? Yeah. Do we want 531 00:33:38.340 --> 00:33:42.060 to build a suite where customers can also process all of their 532 00:33:42.060 --> 00:33:45.340 incoming receipts? Yeah. That's very different from card transactions. 533 00:33:46.090 --> 00:33:49.850 And I also remember that when we took the decision yes. 534 00:33:50.250 --> 00:33:53.530 We brutally underestimated the requirements. 535 00:33:54.970 --> 00:33:58.810 So this is three years ago. We're still working on the product and expanding the 536 00:33:58.810 --> 00:34:02.490 product. I think the short and sweet answer is 537 00:34:02.730 --> 00:34:06.490 if you don't misjudge to a certain degree, you're probably 538 00:34:06.890 --> 00:34:09.930 never start. You should not entirely kind of fail, 539 00:34:10.890 --> 00:34:14.660 but you will definitely misjudge. Yeah. 540 00:34:14.900 --> 00:34:18.500 That's also what I felt when he said that if you really know 541 00:34:18.980 --> 00:34:22.660 how big the problem is, you likely won't 542 00:34:23.620 --> 00:34:24.420 start here. 543 00:34:27.380 --> 00:34:31.060 You've described Moss as finance software 544 00:34:31.060 --> 00:34:34.580 that actually works like your team does. What 545 00:34:34.580 --> 00:34:38.020 trait in yourself once felt like a liability 546 00:34:38.340 --> 00:34:41.860 and and ended up shaping Mosso's user 547 00:34:41.940 --> 00:34:45.060 first design. Yeah. 548 00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:49.540 So there is an interesting insight about 549 00:34:49.540 --> 00:34:53.100 this, about this industry and also 550 00:34:53.100 --> 00:34:56.900 here it actually took a while to get there. Even though it's super simple. 551 00:34:57.620 --> 00:35:01.460 Finance and finance software were almost the first 552 00:35:01.940 --> 00:35:05.740 proper. It was like first technology. Yeah. So amongst the 553 00:35:05.740 --> 00:35:08.740 first. Yeah, let's call it like this. So what I want to say with this, 554 00:35:09.860 --> 00:35:13.140 the ERP systems like SAP 555 00:35:13.620 --> 00:35:17.100 or accounting software, it was the early days of 556 00:35:17.100 --> 00:35:20.740 digitization, of putting codes into a piece of software 557 00:35:20.740 --> 00:35:24.420 to run something in a digital way. Having said 558 00:35:24.420 --> 00:35:28.260 that, they are their biggest, biggest, biggest pain. 559 00:35:28.340 --> 00:35:31.450 If you boil it down to kind of 560 00:35:32.170 --> 00:35:35.770 all of the pains that exist is the user experience. 561 00:35:36.490 --> 00:35:40.330 Yeah. It's not that they don't offer functionality. 562 00:35:40.570 --> 00:35:44.330 They have the broadest suite of functionality. They had 20, 30 years 563 00:35:44.330 --> 00:35:47.770 of time to build all single functionality. 564 00:35:49.370 --> 00:35:53.050 Where it breaks is the user experience. It's not 565 00:35:53.370 --> 00:35:57.090 state of art. It doesn't adhere to the standards, neither in 566 00:35:57.090 --> 00:36:00.740 design nor in the flows. It's 567 00:36:00.740 --> 00:36:04.060 maybe less user centric, it's maybe more infrastructure centric. 568 00:36:04.460 --> 00:36:07.020 Not all data is available kind of. 569 00:36:07.980 --> 00:36:11.580 That's actually their biggest pain. So what we understood 570 00:36:11.820 --> 00:36:15.420 and I'm so happy that our lead product 571 00:36:15.499 --> 00:36:19.220 designer, Moritz, who was the only person in 572 00:36:19.220 --> 00:36:22.860 that team when we started, got this very early, is 573 00:36:23.100 --> 00:36:26.540 we will only be able to create this. 574 00:36:26.950 --> 00:36:29.430 A very distinct and long term 575 00:36:30.150 --> 00:36:33.510 differentiating factor. If we exceed 576 00:36:33.670 --> 00:36:37.430 customer expectations on user experience. We have to 577 00:36:37.430 --> 00:36:40.910 take an entirely different lens. How we look at those 578 00:36:40.910 --> 00:36:44.710 workflows, how we design the platform, how 579 00:36:44.710 --> 00:36:48.150 we incrementally optimize it. Yeah. Over and over again, 580 00:36:48.230 --> 00:36:51.910 small stuff, big stuff. To create this compounding effect 581 00:36:52.660 --> 00:36:56.460 of a superpower. And I think in this 582 00:36:56.460 --> 00:36:59.620 regard we are very proud and we know it's true 583 00:37:00.260 --> 00:37:04.060 and the market confirms it. Moss does have the best user 584 00:37:04.060 --> 00:37:07.660 experience. If an, if an accountant, a controller, business 585 00:37:07.660 --> 00:37:11.180 owner, a tax advisor, if they, if they want to have this 586 00:37:11.180 --> 00:37:15.020 iPhone like experience. Yeah. You find everything by Yourself pretty 587 00:37:15.020 --> 00:37:18.860 much the connections make sense. You can find, you 588 00:37:18.860 --> 00:37:22.340 can, you have the right settings that you need and that's an 589 00:37:22.340 --> 00:37:26.100 objective that we widely have achieved. Yeah, entirely. Will be too 590 00:37:26.100 --> 00:37:29.900 optimistic. Ton of stuff to still do but. 591 00:37:29.980 --> 00:37:33.660 But much better than anyone else in the market. Mm 592 00:37:34.780 --> 00:37:37.660 hmm. I was wondering 593 00:37:38.540 --> 00:37:41.980 if I could ask our audience the same question. What was 594 00:37:42.700 --> 00:37:46.380 one founder trait you've turned from a liability 595 00:37:46.620 --> 00:37:50.470 to superpower? Maybe even with your co founder. Let us know 596 00:37:50.470 --> 00:37:53.910 on AX BlueSky threads or LinkedIn. 597 00:37:55.910 --> 00:37:59.190 With over 5000 SMEs onboarded, 598 00:37:59.430 --> 00:38:03.150 what unexpected insight changed 599 00:38:03.150 --> 00:38:06.950 the way you understood CFO workflows, span 600 00:38:06.950 --> 00:38:09.990 patterns or ERP integration pain points? 601 00:38:10.630 --> 00:38:13.670 Yeah, there is. So first I think it's important to 602 00:38:14.260 --> 00:38:17.260 segment the market a little bit. Yeah. Now it's getting, I don't want to get 603 00:38:17.260 --> 00:38:20.980 too technical but just for the, for the audience also to get a better 604 00:38:20.980 --> 00:38:24.660 understanding. There are small businesses, right? Micro 605 00:38:24.660 --> 00:38:28.500 enterprises could be a solo trader, one person, could be two, could be 606 00:38:28.500 --> 00:38:32.100 five, but basically a very simple and kind of 607 00:38:32.100 --> 00:38:35.820 easy to communicate setup. Then there is the mid segment. It's the 608 00:38:35.820 --> 00:38:39.300 companies to start with, let's say 10 employees and then go up to 609 00:38:39.300 --> 00:38:42.650 500 or thousand. It's kind of the traditional 610 00:38:42.650 --> 00:38:46.450 kaimo as you said, the traditional SMBs to choose like English 611 00:38:46.450 --> 00:38:49.650 words. And then there is mid market enterprise 612 00:38:49.970 --> 00:38:53.810 companies that operate globally, have huge organizations, 613 00:38:53.890 --> 00:38:55.810 many entities, etc. Etc. 614 00:38:57.810 --> 00:39:01.410 In that mid segment. And this is our core and this is where 615 00:39:01.730 --> 00:39:05.570 kind of the, the biggest share of the GDP lies. 616 00:39:05.730 --> 00:39:09.170 Yeah, this is kind of the biggest segment in terms of kind of the GDP 617 00:39:09.600 --> 00:39:13.360 in business. The very surprising 618 00:39:13.360 --> 00:39:16.400 insight was that they are not 619 00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:20.720 zero digitized. It's not like 620 00:39:20.720 --> 00:39:24.560 that. There is no software they use. I 621 00:39:24.560 --> 00:39:28.400 mean they use anyways accounting software and erp. But even 622 00:39:28.400 --> 00:39:32.160 beyond that the point was it was very 623 00:39:32.320 --> 00:39:36.150 unsophisticated single point software. Yeah. So 624 00:39:36.150 --> 00:39:39.110 for example there is a tool that allows you to 625 00:39:39.990 --> 00:39:43.790 build approvals. So you as a company you 626 00:39:43.790 --> 00:39:47.350 want to stay on top and control what people buy. So what you do, you 627 00:39:47.350 --> 00:39:50.630 build an approval flow and now you want to buy something for 628 00:39:50.869 --> 00:39:54.590 10k. Someone needs to sign off and not doing this kind 629 00:39:54.590 --> 00:39:58.150 of an accident or via email or via signatures. The only way is 630 00:39:58.150 --> 00:40:01.990 to bring it into a tool. The challenge though is if 631 00:40:01.990 --> 00:40:05.710 you have one or two or three of those tools, you have 632 00:40:05.710 --> 00:40:09.430 to manage your workforce on the tool. You have to onboard them, they have 633 00:40:09.430 --> 00:40:13.110 to log in, they have to run the process and like who wants to 634 00:40:13.110 --> 00:40:16.750 have three, four different tools to get the job done. 635 00:40:16.910 --> 00:40:20.590 It's like it's a nightmare. So 636 00:40:20.590 --> 00:40:24.390 the kind of. The most interesting insight was there are tools out 637 00:40:24.390 --> 00:40:28.090 there, but they have one big deficit. They don't 638 00:40:28.090 --> 00:40:31.690 connect the dots. They are isolated pain 639 00:40:31.690 --> 00:40:35.170 points. It's isolated solutions. They are 640 00:40:35.250 --> 00:40:38.610 not connected to the broader software landscape. 641 00:40:38.930 --> 00:40:41.330 They are covering only fractions of the pains. 642 00:40:42.690 --> 00:40:46.290 And this is an option for us to tackle. We 643 00:40:46.290 --> 00:40:48.450 decided this is the way to tackle. 644 00:40:51.490 --> 00:40:54.520 You've said Moss aims to be the most 645 00:40:54.600 --> 00:40:58.440 intelligent finance stack for Europe's SMBs. 646 00:40:59.080 --> 00:41:02.920 Paint the picture. What does that look like in five years? 647 00:41:03.320 --> 00:41:06.680 Does it include Treasury AI, embedded 648 00:41:06.680 --> 00:41:10.360 FPA, cross border FX? Yeah. So now, 649 00:41:10.360 --> 00:41:14.080 now I love speaking about the future, but it's also very 650 00:41:14.080 --> 00:41:15.000 hard to predict. 651 00:41:17.640 --> 00:41:21.460 Maybe starting first with the fundamental belief. Yeah. And I think this is 652 00:41:21.460 --> 00:41:24.900 what shapes like a lot of thinking for us at Moss and also for me 653 00:41:24.900 --> 00:41:28.420 personally and my co founders. The first 654 00:41:28.420 --> 00:41:32.180 layer that we tackle is the workflow. It's 655 00:41:32.180 --> 00:41:36.020 creating a digital experience. Now, for 656 00:41:36.020 --> 00:41:39.660 some, this might already be groundbreaking. Yeah. But if we are 657 00:41:39.660 --> 00:41:43.460 honest, it's only the baseline, it's only process efficiency. 658 00:41:43.460 --> 00:41:46.980 Right. You basically can do the job in a more orchestrated way and maybe a 659 00:41:46.980 --> 00:41:50.250 bit faster and a bit more automated. The true power 660 00:41:50.730 --> 00:41:54.570 comes from intelligence. Yeah. So how can I 661 00:41:54.810 --> 00:41:58.410 digest that data and how can I use that data 662 00:41:58.810 --> 00:42:02.490 in a way that makes people work smarter? 663 00:42:02.650 --> 00:42:06.330 Yeah. Not. Not just harder. And by 664 00:42:06.330 --> 00:42:10.170 comparison, here would be. For anyone who is working with CRM 665 00:42:10.170 --> 00:42:14.010 software and in sales, think about Salesforce. Yeah. The, 666 00:42:14.230 --> 00:42:15.910 the company, Salesforce, the product. 667 00:42:17.910 --> 00:42:21.470 It's good if you can create a customer journey and a 668 00:42:21.470 --> 00:42:25.150 buyer list and basically move away from a Google Doc, from Excel to 669 00:42:25.150 --> 00:42:28.990 having it in Salesforce. But the magic is when you get all of 670 00:42:28.990 --> 00:42:32.790 your KPIs, when you understand what the sales cycle is, 671 00:42:32.790 --> 00:42:36.590 what the big deals are, when the follow updates are, when it automates your 672 00:42:36.590 --> 00:42:40.320 ways of working, when it gives you the intelligence to say I'm on 673 00:42:40.320 --> 00:42:44.120 track or I'm not on track. And it's the same thing with 674 00:42:44.120 --> 00:42:47.800 Moz. We are building the foundational layer and 675 00:42:49.400 --> 00:42:53.240 we are moving very fast on that front. But once 676 00:42:53.240 --> 00:42:56.920 we have done this, we'll move and invest much more into the intelligence 677 00:42:56.920 --> 00:43:00.680 layer. Because we want our customers, we want the finance teams, 678 00:43:00.680 --> 00:43:04.360 the business owners, to just spend as little time as possible with 679 00:43:04.360 --> 00:43:07.870 admin and focus most of their time on the 680 00:43:07.870 --> 00:43:11.550 activities that change and drive their company. Yeah. And we 681 00:43:11.550 --> 00:43:15.310 call it business partnering. Yeah. So you work with the team 682 00:43:15.310 --> 00:43:18.870 to grow sales, to reduce costs, to improve margins 683 00:43:19.670 --> 00:43:23.510 or whatsoever. So having said that. Yeah, it's the foundational 684 00:43:23.590 --> 00:43:27.270 layer. This really great workflows end to end across 685 00:43:27.270 --> 00:43:31.070 accounting, across controlling. Very likely not just focused on 686 00:43:31.070 --> 00:43:34.710 spend, what we do now in five years from now, very likely also focus on 687 00:43:34.710 --> 00:43:38.300 the revenue side. But then it's the layer on top, 688 00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:41.740 it's kind of the cash flow forecasting, it's the budgeting, 689 00:43:42.940 --> 00:43:46.580 it's a lot of additional use cases, effective cost 690 00:43:46.580 --> 00:43:50.420 controlling, etc. Etc. That connect all of the dots in 691 00:43:50.420 --> 00:43:53.980 the dashboard and then help businesses improve, help 692 00:43:53.980 --> 00:43:57.780 businesses grow. Sounds pretty 693 00:43:57.780 --> 00:44:01.300 good. Sounds like you'll have some kind of AI 694 00:44:01.300 --> 00:44:05.060 agent best controlled 695 00:44:05.060 --> 00:44:08.820 via audio and you tell him make a casual forecast this 696 00:44:08.820 --> 00:44:12.420 and this and this changed and let me know tomorrow what are the 697 00:44:12.420 --> 00:44:16.180 implications. Yeah, yeah. So I love 698 00:44:16.180 --> 00:44:20.020 that. If I may, if I may say, I we're so excited about the 699 00:44:20.020 --> 00:44:23.700 AI. AI kind of AI segment, 700 00:44:23.780 --> 00:44:27.060 category, trend, whatever want to call it. And 701 00:44:27.460 --> 00:44:31.150 one fun fact up front, AI has been 702 00:44:31.150 --> 00:44:34.950 leveraged in finance since many, many years already. So 703 00:44:34.950 --> 00:44:38.350 OCR, extracting information from documents and 704 00:44:38.350 --> 00:44:42.030 categorizing it is basically a certain 705 00:44:42.030 --> 00:44:45.589 form of AI and it's already in 706 00:44:45.590 --> 00:44:48.710 most software since many, many years. What 707 00:44:48.710 --> 00:44:52.510 fundamentally changed with the introduction of the LLMs and with the 708 00:44:52.510 --> 00:44:56.360 power of the LLMs was to supercharge other parts and 709 00:44:56.360 --> 00:44:59.320 connect more dots and more context and more information. 710 00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:04.600 And yeah, so we for example right now are, 711 00:45:04.760 --> 00:45:08.320 have a very, very powerful AI automation 712 00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:12.040 platform. So let's say a customer submits an invoice. 713 00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:16.640 19 out of 20 actions that have to be 714 00:45:16.640 --> 00:45:20.360 taken, such as, you know, the service date, the 715 00:45:20.360 --> 00:45:24.050 account category, the cost center, like everything finance 716 00:45:24.050 --> 00:45:27.530 needs to do for the transaction. 19 out of 20 717 00:45:28.010 --> 00:45:31.770 the machine can do for you in an automated way and an 718 00:45:31.770 --> 00:45:35.410 accurate way. Yeah, and this is just think about this change. So just think 719 00:45:35.410 --> 00:45:39.249 about you have to do one step out of 20. Yeah, it's a 720 00:45:39.249 --> 00:45:42.770 very, very brutal improvement and it's just 721 00:45:42.770 --> 00:45:46.210 starting. Yeah. So on compliance 722 00:45:46.210 --> 00:45:49.690 checks, there's so many other areas 723 00:45:49.690 --> 00:45:53.310 where, where AI will supercharge the 724 00:45:53.310 --> 00:45:57.150 offering and it's not necessarily going to be kind of just 725 00:45:57.150 --> 00:46:00.470 an AI agent. I think it's almost like it's a 726 00:46:00.470 --> 00:46:04.310 misused terminology. It will be part of the software suite. The 727 00:46:04.310 --> 00:46:07.750 AI will enable a better workflow and better 728 00:46:07.750 --> 00:46:11.190 insights for customers through a specific user experience. 729 00:46:11.510 --> 00:46:15.030 It might be a prompt, it might be kind of just in the background, you 730 00:46:15.030 --> 00:46:18.140 don't even see it. It's just, it's just, it just executes the job 731 00:46:19.020 --> 00:46:22.780 or it might be a different ways, but it's kind of, 732 00:46:23.260 --> 00:46:26.620 it is going to be part of the software. Let's face it 733 00:46:27.660 --> 00:46:31.100 this is well, but I had in mind if 734 00:46:31.100 --> 00:46:34.860 it's from a psychological perspective, easier 735 00:46:35.260 --> 00:46:38.620 for person to interact with an AI 736 00:46:38.620 --> 00:46:42.420 agent that at least has some personality. I'm thinking about 737 00:46:42.420 --> 00:46:45.100 Jarvis here from Ironman or or 738 00:46:45.740 --> 00:46:49.540 Skippy. Sci Fi readers would know 739 00:46:49.540 --> 00:46:53.340 them, but that's a completely different topic. If anybody out there is 740 00:46:53.340 --> 00:46:56.900 researching on that or knowledgeable about it, hit me up Joe, 741 00:46:56.900 --> 00:47:00.340 celebrate IO and we can talk about and maybe even find an 742 00:47:00.340 --> 00:47:04.020 interview for you. Let's reflect a little bit for the 743 00:47:04.020 --> 00:47:07.500 closing in the Future version of ANTO 5 years 744 00:47:07.500 --> 00:47:11.200 older post series D looked back at this moment. 745 00:47:11.200 --> 00:47:15.040 What would he say to you right now? 746 00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:19.840 Yeah, so I'm thinking about what the future me 747 00:47:19.840 --> 00:47:23.600 will say. Yeah, this is a very very good question. Yeah. 748 00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:28.560 So I hope it will say stay hungry, 749 00:47:29.280 --> 00:47:32.400 push, but don't stress out too much. 750 00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:36.240 Everything will be fine. I hope this is what they will say. 751 00:47:36.750 --> 00:47:37.790 Everything will be fine. 752 00:47:41.230 --> 00:47:45.030 Great. Awesome Ante. Thank you 753 00:47:45.030 --> 00:47:48.270 very much. Awesome interview. Hope to have you back soon 754 00:47:48.750 --> 00:47:52.549 and we'll now hop into the founders 755 00:47:52.549 --> 00:47:56.270 world and talk a little bit behind the scenes 756 00:47:56.430 --> 00:47:59.990 for our subscribers. If you'd like to join us, go on 757 00:47:59.990 --> 00:48:03.795 substack or YouTube, become a paying member and you'll have access 758 00:48:03.795 --> 00:48:07.550 to access to the Founders vote. Thanks y and all 759 00:48:07.550 --> 00:48:10.830 the listeners. Really really enjoyed. My pleasure. 760 00:48:15.870 --> 00:48:19.390 That's all folks. Find more news streams, 761 00:48:19.550 --> 00:48:20.790 events and 762 00:48:20.790 --> 00:48:25.070 interviews@www.startuprat.IO 763 00:48:25.470 --> 00:48:27.710 Remember, sharing is caring. 764 00:48:29.640 --> 00:48:41.010 Sam.