Latest / Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori / 115. How to Write Multifaceted Villains (Part 2)

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115. How to Write Multifaceted Villains (Part 2) · Show, don't Tell Writing with Suzy Vadori

• 0:05
  Welcome to the Show, Don't Tell writing podcast with me, Suzy Vadori, where I peel back the layers of how to wow your readers with your fiction, your nonfiction.
• 0:13
  Anybody can bang out a first draft, but it takes a little more work to make your book as amazing as it can be.
• 0:20
  Join me as I share the step-by-step writing techniques you could apply to your writing right away, as I host successful writers who share a behind-the-scenes look at their own writing lives, and as I live coach writers on their pages, giving practical writing examples that will make your own writing stronger.
• 0:38
  Nobody is born knowing how to write an engaging book.
• 0:42
  There are real and important skills that you need to learn.
• 0:45
  On this show, I cut through the noise and get you all the info you need.
• 0:49
  I can't wait to see how this information is going to transform your writing I get pitches to come on my podcast all the time from writers, and I love, love, love seeing them.
• 1:02
  But I wanna make sure that the writers that come on the podcast have a lot to tell us about craft and that you can really learn from them as listeners, that tell us something about their writing life that's cool or something about how we can write differently.
• 1:15
  And when Debbie Burks hit my desk, I was so excited because she's written a
• 1:20
  book called The Villains Journey: How to Create Villains Readers Love to Hate.
• 1:24
  book called The Villains Journey: And I just took a quick look at what she'd done, and her personality just shone through everything that she does.
• 1:31
  book called The Villains Journey: I know you're gonna love her today.
• 1:33
  book called The Villains Journey: We have so much fun talking about villains in this episode.
• 1:36
  book called The Villains Journey: So she self-professes, looks like a cookie-baking quilter from Montana, but she hangs out with a tough crowd she claims.
• 1:43
  book called The Villains Journey: In her award-winning Tawny Lindholm thriller series, she consorts with terrorists, scam artists, embezzlers, kidnappers, and killers.
• 1:52
  book called The Villains Journey: And her best-selling craft writing book, The Villains Journey: How to Create Villains Readers Love to Hate, delves deep into the desires, compulsions, and the psychology that motivate memorable antagonists in books, films, and real life.
• 2:07
  book called The Villains Journey: The Villains Journey is a finalist for the Silver Falchion Award for Best Nonfiction, and Debbie also writes for international news publications, teaches writing workshops, and does freelance editing.
• 2:19
  book called The Villains Journey: I can't wait till you hear this episode So I love what we were just talking about.
• 2:26
  book called The Villains Journey: You're talking about, about knowing where your villain is and all of those things, but it ties into something bigger, because I talk about this a lot on the podcast as well, where when a writer doesn't know the answers, then everything feels vague.
• 2:40
  book called The Villains Journey: And it's one of these weird things where when I'm looking at a manuscript with a client, and I can put in the margin, "Hey, I don't think you've decided this." Like, I don't think you've decided, you know, what your villain actually, where he, where your villain lives or what they do, and they're like, "How do you know that?" And it's because- Yeah … everything that ends up on the page is so vague that it's boring- Yeah … and it's not interesting, right?
• 3:03
  book called The Villains Journey: And so you need to know these things.
• 3:05
  book called The Villains Journey: The more specifics you can include, the better.
• 3:08
  book called The Villains Journey: I think specific details are what really bring a character to life, and it's- Mm … little things.
• 3:15
  book called The Villains Journey: It's not necessarily their hair and eye color and how they dress and so on.
• 3:19
  book called The Villains Journey: It's little things like their quirks, their tics, their obsessions, their things that make them perk up and get excited, or things that make them go, "Oh, God," you know, "Do I have to listen to this?" You know.
• 3:34
  book called The Villains Journey: So it's specific reactions, specific traits, I think are what will bring any character to life, not just heroes and villains, but any character, so.
• 3:46
  book called The Villains Journey: Hey, and that is one of the main concepts that we need to learn in showing, right?
• 3:50
  book called The Villains Journey: Like, it's not- That's right … that we're telling, but if it's in the absence of it, we're not showing.
• 3:54
  book called The Villains Journey: Yes.
• 3:55
  book called The Villains Journey: Um, but again, you may know why they're like that and all that.
• 3:59
  book called The Villains Journey: You don't need to tell the reader that.
• 4:01
  book called The Villains Journey: You need to understand it as a writer, because then what comes through is consistency, and what the reader will see is that their actions seem consistent and feel cohesive, and they don't need all of the backstory.
• 4:12
  book called The Villains Journey: I mean, sometimes- Exactly … it might make sense, but you know, don't feel the need to explain everything, but definitely their quirks and things should make sense in your space, and you should know why they're doing the things that they're doing.
• 4:23
  book called The Villains Journey: Exactly.
• 4:24
  book called The Villains Journey: And, you know, you want to leave some unanswered questions, but you do not want to do the back, you know, the dreaded backstory because that isn't that important.
• 4:35
  book called The Villains Journey: It's selected items out of that backstory that you want to slip in.
• 4:41
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 4:41
  book called The Villains Journey: Okay, so assuming that we're writing a book that isn't the reverse where the villain becomes the hero, right?
• 4:47
  book called The Villains Journey: What is the role of the villain?
• 4:49
  book called The Villains Journey: Because you've written that the protagonist needs to react to something, right?
• 4:55
  book called The Villains Journey: But I just, I wonder how do you…'Cause I haven't thought about it this way before, but we often are worried about the protagonist having enough agency so that they're not reacting or, or just reacting to what's happening, but they are driving the story.
• 5:10
  book called The Villains Journey: So how do you balance that when you flip it and look at the villain in this way?
• 5:14
  book called The Villains Journey: I think the bigger the villain, the bigger the challenge for the protagonist and hero who has to rise to the occasion and dig deeper into their reserves and their strengths that they didn't know they had because they have to somehow vanquish the villain.
• 5:34
  book called The Villains Journey: And so they are drawing on tools that they maybe haven't used before, but they discover about themselves during the, the process of the story as it unfolds, and I think that the more they learn that they're capable of more than they thought they were, that makes a much more appealing hero.
• 5:58
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, because well- Yeah oh God, I could never do that.
• 6:01
  book called The Villains Journey: But then you see somebody who did.
• 6:03
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, you see somebody who runs into the burning building and drags out the baby and the puppy, you know, and, and they're the sh- heroes, and you go, "How did you do that?" You know?
• 6:14
  book called The Villains Journey: Well, they just did it, and that's, I think- Yeah… you know, the hero has to have these they're not aware of, but then they will come out in the challenge as they have to, uh, have to fight the villain.
• 6:33
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah, and they need motivation as well.
• 6:35
  book called The Villains Journey: I mean, we- Yeah … I talk about making sure you understand what your hero's deeply personal reason is for being willing to go above and beyond what any regular human would do in order to get the thing done.
• 6:48
  book called The Villains Journey: And, you know, in real life, if I saw somebody in a burning building and I decided to go because I thought I could- Mm-hmm and save them, um, I'm a very rational individual.
• 6:58
  book called The Villains Journey: If I thought I could do it, I'd probably do it.
• 7:00
  book called The Villains Journey: It's altruistic.
• 7:01
  book called The Villains Journey: There's nothing in it for me.
• 7:02
  book called The Villains Journey: There's great risk to my part, but it's just because I'm- Yeah … doing the right thing.
• 7:06
  book called The Villains Journey: Okay, cool, but you know what?
• 7:08
  book called The Villains Journey: That is the worst kind of hero when they're just doing things because it's the right thing to do, so you need more than that in a book.
• 7:14
  book called The Villains Journey: It doesn't- Yeah … it doesn't fly.
• 7:16
  book called The Villains Journey: I mean, that's … Maybe I get a news article about how Suzy saved somebody from a burning building, uh, which I've never done, by the way.
• 7:21
  book called The Villains Journey: Could I?
• 7:22
  book called The Villains Journey: No idea.
• 7:23
  book called The Villains Journey: Luckily haven't had to make that choice.
• 7:25
  book called The Villains Journey: But yeah, it's, it's just, you know, making sure that they have a actual personal reason and not just out of duty or honor or something because that makes a really boring hero, by the way.
• 7:36
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah, I, I agree that be- and that again, that goes back to the backstory.
• 7:42
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, what were their influences?
• 7:44
  book called The Villains Journey: Who taught them the values that they had?
• 7:47
  book called The Villains Journey: And who, who was their, I guess, mentor figure, and why are those values important to them?
• 7:57
  book called The Villains Journey: And why do they want to Like somebody feels compelled to save other people, and that, you know, that can be a blessing and a curse.
• 8:09
  book called The Villains Journey: Are they trying to save themselves?
• 8:11
  book called The Villains Journey: Exactly.
• 8:11
  book called The Villains Journey: Trying to win somebody's approval, right?
• 8:13
  book called The Villains Journey: Well, actually, exactly.
• 8:15
  book called The Villains Journey: Something else, please.
• 8:16
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 8:16
  book called The Villains Journey: Okay.
• 8:16
  book called The Villains Journey: So something deeper.
• 8:17
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, go deeper always.
• 8:19
  book called The Villains Journey: I had a couple of psychologists who helped me with, uh, with the book, and they, they're university professors, and they do studies on heroism and heroes, why we need heroes, and also have done some work on villains and were very helpful to me.
• 8:36
  book called The Villains Journey: So it's just, you know, it's, I think digging deep and going into their past is where you will find a lot of answers.
• 8:46
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 8:46
  book called The Villains Journey: Amazing.
• 8:47
  book called The Villains Journey: Okay.
• 8:47
  book called The Villains Journey: So Debbie, what is fun for you personally about writing villains?
• 8:53
  book called The Villains Journey: Oh, God.
• 8:54
  book called The Villains Journey: I get to kill people.
• 8:55
  book called The Villains Journey: I get to do all kinds of nasty things.
• 8:58
  book called The Villains Journey: I'm assuming you don't do that in real life though.
• 9:00
  book called The Villains Journey: Like, I'm gonna make that assumption.
• 9:04
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 9:05
  book called The Villains Journey: It's only on the page, really.
• 9:07
  book called The Villains Journey: You know.
• 9:08
  book called The Villains Journey: I wish the listeners could see your face light up when I asked that question.
• 9:11
  book called The Villains Journey: You're like just so passionate about the villains, and that's what I love about you.
• 9:15
  book called The Villains Journey: It's amazing.
• 9:16
  book called The Villains Journey: I think it's, a villain, another reason villains are fascinating is beget- because they get to do what the rest of us don't, and we kind of have that secret wish, "Gee, I'd like to do that too.
• 9:29
  book called The Villains Journey: I'd like to try that out." And so I think it's kind of a vicarious way of living out your shadow side.
• 9:36
  book called The Villains Journey: But it's a lot of fun.
• 9:38
  book called The Villains Journey: I, one of my strong points according to reviewers are my villains in my books, and I just have the best time with… Often that's more interesting than writing the hero's scenes, you know or the villain's scenes.
• 9:54
  book called The Villains Journey: I love it.
• 9:56
  book called The Villains Journey: It is a different, a different thought process.
• 10:02
  book called The Villains Journey: And so it's, uh, you know, and it's totally unlike me.
• 10:05
  book called The Villains Journey: I mean, I don't even have unpaid parking tickets.
• 10:07
  book called The Villains Journey: I'm the squarest, most boring, white bread person you ever met, you know?
• 10:12
  book called The Villains Journey: So, but I think we all have that little… You know, remember the cartoons with the angel on one shoulder and the devil on the other?
• 10:19
  book called The Villains Journey: We all kind of would like to play that devil sometimes.
• 10:23
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 10:24
  book called The Villains Journey: I love that.
• 10:24
  book called The Villains Journey: I love that.
• 10:25
  book called The Villains Journey: Okay.
• 10:25
  book called The Villains Journey: Okay.
• 10:26
  book called The Villains Journey: So you, uh, uh, there, it's not a mistake then, because you love this so much, that you write crime fiction, right?
• 10:32
  book called The Villains Journey: And so what role do villains play in suspense, mystery, thriller versus other genres?
• 10:39
  book called The Villains Journey: 'Cause it is a little bit different, right?
• 10:43
  book called The Villains Journey: They are the driving force in the, you know, in suspense, crime fiction.
• 10:49
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, they're the ones who kick over the first domino, and, you know, they, they cause the inciting incident.
• 10:56
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 10:56
  book called The Villains Journey: Villains in other genres, I don't know, are you talking about villains or antagonists?
• 11:03
  book called The Villains Journey: That's the question, right?
• 11:04
  book called The Villains Journey: You don't necessarily have a villain in another genre.
• 11:07
  book called The Villains Journey: Right.
• 11:07
  book called The Villains Journey: Not necessarily, right?
• 11:08
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah, an antagonist can be, can take on some villainous characteristics, but they aren't necessarily somebody who's gonna go to prison.
• 11:18
  book called The Villains Journey: Uh, it can be the, uh, the emperor of the homeowner's association who fines you for planting the wrong color of petunias.
• 11:26
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, that- The emperor, I love that that is villain.
• 11:30
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, that, uh, but n- they're never gonna go to prison for that.
• 11:34
  book called The Villains Journey: They're never even, you know, gonna get yelled at for that except by the hero.
• 11:40
  book called The Villains Journey: So- But again, that goes back to you as the writer get to decide who is a hero and who is a villain, right?
• 11:45
  book called The Villains Journey: Exactly.
• 11:45
  book called The Villains Journey: And it doesn't have to look like a classic Maleficent or something is- Right what I think of.
• 11:53
  book called The Villains Journey: Let's talk about the types or flavors of villains.
• 11:56
  book called The Villains Journey: We're not gonna be able to go through all 31 flavors or whatever the Baskin-Robbins is right there.
• 12:01
  book called The Villains Journey: But, but can you talk about a couple just to get, whet our appetite?
• 12:05
  book called The Villains Journey: And of course, listeners, go pick up the book, read the rest, but just tell us a little bit about how you came up with these flavors.
• 12:14
  book called The Villains Journey: Why do you call them flavors?
• 12:15
  book called The Villains Journey: And maybe name a couple.
• 12:17
  book called The Villains Journey: I guess just 'cause they're so tasty.
• 12:20
  book called The Villains Journey: You know?
• 12:21
  book called The Villains Journey: They're just, it's just fun.
• 12:23
  book called The Villains Journey: Uh, and they, um- I have the comic villain.
• 12:28
  book called The Villains Journey: Think of Danny DeVito in some of his roles, you know, where he's been the bad guy, but he's so darn cute and funny you can't hate him.
• 12:38
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, and so that's I like comic villains a lot.
• 12:41
  book called The Villains Journey: They're fun.
• 12:42
  book called The Villains Journey: I like the kind of avenging angel villain who has a cause that they are trying to put forward and, you know, make, make the world a better place, and unfortunately, that usually means, you know, wiping out a whole, you know, whole race of people or a whole religion or these, you know, these causes that they have.
• 13:07
  book called The Villains Journey: I love female villains.
• 13:08
  book called The Villains Journey: They're a blast.
• 13:10
  book called The Villains Journey: In fact, I have a very long chapter on the different types of female villains, and a lot of them, for many years, it was the power behind the throne was the only way a woman could get to have a, a position of p- power in society, was they align themselves with a powerful man.
• 13:29
  book called The Villains Journey: Look at Lady Macbeth in Macbeth.
• 13:31
  book called The Villains Journey: Mm-hmm.
• 13:31
  book called The Villains Journey: She aligned herself with the, the king, and then, of course, led him astray pretty badly.
• 13:39
  book called The Villains Journey: But that, um, but people like that, and then you got the femme fatale from the, you know, noir movies of the 1940s and '50s.
• 13:49
  book called The Villains Journey: They're a lot of fun, and that has translated forward into more the Basic Instinct, Sharon Stone-type character where she's smarter than everybody else, and she's getting away with it and, you know, and she's having a ball doing it.
• 14:07
  book called The Villains Journey: She's just having a blast.
• 14:08
  book called The Villains Journey: But then another type of villain are the ones with antisocial personality disorders, and that'll be, uh, narcissists, psychopaths, and sociopaths, and the difference between them is often conscience and l- how much conscience they have.
• 14:26
  book called The Villains Journey: For instance, a true psychopath has no conscience They don't care.
• 14:32
  book called The Villains Journey: They just don't care.
• 14:33
  book called The Villains Journey: They don't care whether they get caught.
• 14:35
  book called The Villains Journey: They don't care whether they go to prison.
• 14:38
  book called The Villains Journey: They don't care that they've killed 14 people.
• 14:40
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 14:41
  book called The Villains Journey: They don't.
• 14:42
  book called The Villains Journey: And sociopaths and narcissists, they have consciences, and they're aware of that what they're doing is wrong, but they figure out ways to justify it.
• 14:53
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah, exactly.
• 14:54
  book called The Villains Journey: Of course.
• 14:55
  book called The Villains Journey: Just so I, they, they- It's a lot of fun, a lot of fun.
• 14:57
  book called The Villains Journey: I've worked with a lot of writers that use those types of personalities, and, you know, the sociopath is actually much more interesting than the psychopath because- Exactly.
• 15:06
  book called The Villains Journey: Exactly … they think they're doing it, like, some people they maybe know, but they're kinda justifying it, and they reframe it so much that- Yeah you know, they think that they're doing good in the world or convince themselves that when really it's horrific, right?
• 15:20
  book called The Villains Journey: Exactly.
• 15:20
  book called The Villains Journey: It's a lot of fun.
• 15:21
  book called The Villains Journey: Exactly.
• 15:21
  book called The Villains Journey: So that's, you know, those are fun.
• 15:23
  book called The Villains Journey: I like to play with the, you know, the psychological, different psychology faces you can put on people.
• 15:30
  book called The Villains Journey: Absolutely.
• 15:31
  book called The Villains Journey: So the book's been out for just over a year.
• 15:34
  book called The Villains Journey: What's the response been?
• 15:35
  book called The Villains Journey: How has this changed your relationship with the world and with writers, and I'm sure you've done so many things.
• 15:41
  book called The Villains Journey: What's it been like?
• 15:43
  book called The Villains Journey: It's been really fun because people do respond.
• 15:46
  book called The Villains Journey: I think there was a genuine need for this, this textbook, if you will, you know, because it hadn't been explored before.
• 15:55
  book called The Villains Journey: And people get really excited when they start playing the, filling out the build a villain worksheet and coming up with reasons behind their own villains and antagonists and why they're doing things.
• 16:08
  book called The Villains Journey: And the other thing that has been really surprising to me is people who are not writers like this book.
• 16:15
  book called The Villains Journey: Hmm.
• 16:16
  book called The Villains Journey: Interesting.
• 16:16
  book called The Villains Journey: Like a reader, readers probably are fascinated by it.
• 16:19
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah Exactly.
• 16:20
  book called The Villains Journey: I have readers who, you know, are voracious readers would never write anything, but they like to see the inner workings of the villain characters that they- Yeah … are interested.
• 16:32
  book called The Villains Journey: So you don't even have to be a writer, you know, and, and people have just been very, very enthusiastic and very, very fun.
• 16:41
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, it's just been a lot of fun,'cause I think we, that little shadow side and that little devil on our shoulder and, and this kind of gives people the opportunity to play with it.
• 16:52
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 16:52
  book called The Villains Journey: And your enthusiasm for this topic, this is such a fun interview.
• 16:56
  book called The Villains Journey: Like, I, I just can't even.
• 16:58
  book called The Villains Journey: That's why I was excited to have you on the show.
• 17:00
  book called The Villains Journey: Thanks so much.
• 17:02
  book called The Villains Journey: We've reached the quick-fire portion of our recording, so I'm about to ask you a few questions.
• 17:08
  book called The Villains Journey: I know you've listened to some episodes, so this isn't gonna come as a surprise.
• 17:11
  book called The Villains Journey: How long did it take you from the idea to publication of the first novel that you published?
• 17:18
  book called The Villains Journey: Probably a year and a half, um, but I had written a whole bunch of trunk novels before that.
• 17:26
  book called The Villains Journey: There you go.
• 17:26
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 17:27
  book called The Villains Journey: I'm embarrassed to tell you that I wrote probably a dozen novels before that that didn't fly.
• 17:34
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 17:34
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah, right?
• 17:34
  book called The Villains Journey: And maybe you'll pull them out and know what's wrong with them now, or maybe not.
• 17:37
  book called The Villains Journey: You know what happened.
• 17:38
  book called The Villains Journey: We change, we change as writers.
• 17:41
  book called The Villains Journey: Exactly.
• 17:41
  book called The Villains Journey: I have a book, like, that was on a revise and resubmit in 2020, and I didn't end up doing it for a lot of reasons.
• 17:46
  book called The Villains Journey: 2020 was a weird year in YA fantasy, and also I didn't really wanna do what they wanted me to do.
• 17:52
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 17:53
  book called The Villains Journey: I just didn't do it, and then now I'm like, well, I have this book that's in pretty good shape.
• 17:58
  book called The Villains Journey: It was on submission at that time, and we pulled it because, you know, YA fantasy wasn't- Wasn't flying.
• 18:05
  book called The Villains Journey: Um, w- all the bookstores were closed.
• 18:07
  book called The Villains Journey: It's like a hugely print medium thing, so they weren't getting bought, and there was a bit of a glut.
• 18:12
  book called The Villains Journey: And the market's changed so much, and I'm like, "Should I pull that old book out and see what I could do with it?" And I'm like, "I don't know.
• 18:18
  book called The Villains Journey: I don't know." It's hard, right?
• 18:20
  book called The Villains Journey: So I, I, I can totally relate.
• 18:21
  book called The Villains Journey: If you're still, if you're still interested in it and, you know- Well, I'd have to find a new angle, I think.
• 18:26
  book called The Villains Journey: I'd have to find- Yeah … a new way in to be fun for me at this moment- Yeah … in my career.
• 18:31
  book called The Villains Journey: Um- But, you know, when you've had this much time away from it, you may be able to easily look at it with a new ang- angle- Yeah … or see and spot a new angle that you had never thought of before.
• 18:43
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah, it's tough when you're a writing instructor, and you're gonna find this too, Debbie, as you keep going and teaching.
• 18:48
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, I've been teaching writing now for more than a decade and worked on more than 200 books for clients.
• 18:53
  book called The Villains Journey: Right.
• 18:54
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 18:54
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah, and, and the thing is, is like now there's so much pressure as a, as a writing instructor, and I wanna go back and rewrite all the books that I've published as you learn more, but you can't.
• 19:04
  book called The Villains Journey: You just, you just- Yeah … have to say, like, you know, my first novel was The Fountain.
• 19:08
  book called The Villains Journey: It won a lot of awards.
• 19:09
  book called The Villains Journey: It sold thousands and thousands of books, and I still get emails from kids saying that was the first book that, like, from teens, saying that was the first book that they ever read all the way through.
• 19:18
  book called The Villains Journey: It's the first book that they shared with their friends, you know?
• 19:20
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 19:20
  book called The Villains Journey: Like, all of those things, and so I look at it now and go like, "Oh, my goodness, look at all those technical things that I would change, or the things that I know now." Yeah.
• 19:29
  book called The Villains Journey: It doesn't matter.
• 19:30
  book called The Villains Journey: It doesn't matter.
• 19:31
  book called The Villains Journey: It doesn't matter if you, if- Something was good about it.
• 19:33
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah, if you touch readers the way you obviously did with that book- Yeah… that's the value right there.
• 19:41
  book called The Villains Journey: You don't have to come in and rearrange commas.
• 19:45
  book called The Villains Journey: Just- Exactly.
• 19:46
  book called The Villains Journey: Exactly.
• 19:46
  book called The Villains Journey: Okay, so what was your first big break in terms of where you were like, "Okay, this is real. I'm gonna get published"?
• 19:53
  book called The Villains Journey: Maybe you've already answered it already with Discovering Your Villain Was Where Hiding, right?
• 19:57
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 19:58
  book called The Villains Journey: Uh, that was the first book that I submitted to the contest that won, and, uh, it was called Instrument of the Devil, and that was, that was- Picked up, picked up and became a best seller and, you know, won some awards.
• 20:15
  book called The Villains Journey: And, uh, then a- as life will do to you, you know, you think you're on that trajectory just going to the, straight to the top of the mountain, and they decided to close their doors.
• 20:28
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 20:29
  book called The Villains Journey: Happens, right?
• 20:30
  book called The Villains Journey: Publishing is such a fickle place these days.
• 20:33
  book called The Villains Journey: Exactly.
• 20:34
  book called The Villains Journey: Exactly.
• 20:35
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 20:35
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, it's, it, that was my big break that I guess proved to me, okay, I can write a book that somebody is willing to buy.
• 20:44
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 20:44
  book called The Villains Journey: And that was the affirmation that, that I, I knew I could write, but that was enough of an affirmation that I thought, okay, now I can do this and get away with it.
• 20:56
  book called The Villains Journey: Call myself an author, not a pretender.
• 20:59
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 20:59
  book called The Villains Journey: I love it.
• 21:00
  book called The Villains Journey: Okay.
• 21:01
  book called The Villains Journey: What is your best advice for those writers listening out there to the podcast today who wanna tackle writing a book with a really awesome villain in it?
• 21:11
  book called The Villains Journey: Boy, get inside their head.
• 21:14
  book called The Villains Journey: Look at their, develop their background.
• 21:17
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, build them from the ground up, and come up with the things that are the really serious wounds that shape them and make their worldview a particularly skewed one.
• 21:32
  book called The Villains Journey: And that, I think if you can get into their deepest pain, their deepest fear, that's another thing.
• 21:41
  book called The Villains Journey: What is the villain's deepest fear?
• 21:43
  book called The Villains Journey: What are they most afraid of?
• 21:45
  book called The Villains Journey: What would just destroy them if the world found out that they were afraid of this?
• 21:51
  book called The Villains Journey: That's another thing that I think is really important when you're developing a villain.
• 21:56
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 21:56
  book called The Villains Journey: Amazing advice.
• 21:57
  book called The Villains Journey: Thank you so much.
• 21:58
  book called The Villains Journey: Okay.
• 21:58
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 21:59
  book called The Villains Journey: Where can all the listeners find you, your books?
• 22:02
  book called The Villains Journey: We'll drop all the links in the show notes, but just tell us where we can find you.
• 22:06
  book called The Villains Journey: Well, I'm in all the usual places, you know, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Kobo, the regular marketplaces.
• 22:13
  book called The Villains Journey: And, uh, I have a website, debbieburkeriter.com, that they can find me on, and I have a Substack also that I've just recently started.
• 22:23
  book called The Villains Journey: And so that one isn't too well established.
• 22:26
  book called The Villains Journey: But I've also been a contributor at The Kill Zone for many years now, and so my posts, you know, are in, uh, in The Kill Zone archives.
• 22:35
  book called The Villains Journey: Okay.
• 22:36
  book called The Villains Journey: So you can get in on the ground floor.
• 22:38
  book called The Villains Journey: Go follow Debbie's Substack and see what she's doing, and give her some feedback.
• 22:43
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 22:43
  book called The Villains Journey: Give her a little bit of love and support.
• 22:45
  book called The Villains Journey: Help her b- get found over there,'cause that's the newest one, right?
• 22:48
  book called The Villains Journey: Thank you.
• 22:49
  book called The Villains Journey: That's, you know, so marketing is my downfall.
• 22:52
  book called The Villains Journey: That is, I, I just have a terrible time doing marketing.
• 22:57
  book called The Villains Journey: Okay.
• 22:58
  book called The Villains Journey: You know, like, just as an added bonus on this episode, I will say that Debbie Burke, you contacted me cold, and I get a lot of pitches for the podcast.
• 23:07
  book called The Villains Journey: I've shared this with you personally, but I get a lot of pitches for the podcast.
• 23:11
  book called The Villains Journey: Um, and many people don't do their research and don't understand that we actually talk about behind the scenes, and we talk about topics, and writing things, and writing life.
• 23:19
  book called The Villains Journey: And we want the skinny, we want the behind the scenes.
• 23:22
  book called The Villains Journey: Right.
• 23:23
  book called The Villains Journey: Uh, you understood that, and your, your submission stood out.
• 23:26
  book called The Villains Journey: And often, I wish I could bring everybody on the podcast that wants to, but if you're sending out a generic, "Come and interview me about my book," where I, as the host, have to do all of the work in learning about your book, I'm not really that, you know, that's not what we're about here at the podcast.
• 23:42
  book called The Villains Journey: So yeah- Right … so if you're thinking… But anyway, so you say that marketing is your downfall, and yet I thought you were really good at it, and you're here as a consequence.
• 23:50
  book called The Villains Journey: So I, I'm excited to have you in my world.
• 23:52
  book called The Villains Journey: Go find Debbie, and thank you so much for being here today.
• 23:56
  book called The Villains Journey: Thank you, Suzy.
• 23:57
  book called The Villains Journey: This has just been a blast.
• 23:59
  book called The Villains Journey: It's been so much fun talking with you.
• 24:01
  book called The Villains Journey: And, you know, you are such a, a kindred spirit in so many of the attitudes that, you know, we have towards characters and writing and things that help writers.
• 24:12
  book called The Villains Journey: And really enjoy that, really enjoy that.
• 24:15
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah, that's what we're here to do, is help all y'all.
• 24:17
  book called The Villains Journey: Yeah.
• 24:17
  book called The Villains Journey: So if you love the podcast today, make sure to comment, um, make sure to subscribe, and we'll see you again next time.
• 24:29
  book called The Villains Journey: Thanks for tuning in to the Show, Don't Tell writing podcast with me, Suzy Vadori.
• 24:34
  book called The Villains Journey: It is my absolute honor to bring you the straight goods for that book you're writing or the book that you're planning to write.
• 24:40
  book called The Villains Journey: Please help me keep the podcast going by helping people find us.
• 24:44
  book called The Villains Journey: You can subscribe to the podcast and leave a review on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever else you're listening to show how much you enjoy the show.
• 24:53
  book called The Villains Journey: That's how other listeners will find us.
• 24:56
  book called The Villains Journey: Also, visit Suzyvadori.com/newsletter to hop on my weekly inspired writing newsletter list, where you'll stay inspired and be the first to know about all the upcoming training events and writing courses that happen in my community.
• 25:10
  book called The Villains Journey: Want my eyes on your writing?
• 25:12
  book called The Villains Journey: Submit a page of your current draft for a chance to come on the podcast at the link in the show notes.
• 25:17
  book called The Villains Journey: I'd love to chat with you about your writing in my always positive, incredibly supportive way so that you can make great strides towards your writing goals.
• 25:27
  book called The Villains Journey: I'm here to cheer you on.
• 25:29
  book called The Villains Journey: Remember, that book you're writing is gonna open doors that you haven't even thought of yet, and I can't wait to help you make that it the absolute best it can be.
• 25:39
  book called The Villains Journey: See you again right here next week