Latest / We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism / Ep. 25: Survivor, Not Sinner (Babs Part 3)

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Ep. 25: Survivor, Not Sinner (Babs Part 3) · We Are More: Sisters Talk Faith & Feminism

0:00
Welcome to the We Are More podcast.
0:13
My name is Alyssa.
0:15
And my name is Bri.
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We are two sisters passionate about all things faith and feminism.
0:20
We believe that Jesus trusted, respected, and encouraged women to teach and preach His
0:25
word.
0:26
And apparently that's controversial.
0:28
Get comfy.
0:37
I want to start off by saying there's nothing worse to start your day off with than running
0:43
behind you need to get ready.
0:45
You're trying to get ready in a rush because you're stupid.
0:47
You've been staring at your phone for too long and you spray some deodorant into your
0:53
armpits so that you don't offend anybody with your smell.
0:57
And then you accidentally breathe in that deodorant.
1:00
It has been in my esophagus all day.
1:03
It has been what do you call deodorant?
1:06
Antiperspirant?
1:08
My throat has been antiperspirized.
1:11
Was your throat perspirizing before?
1:14
Well it's not now.
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And it really has thrown me off all day.
1:18
I feel like I have felt it all day.
1:20
Have you tasted it all day?
1:23
I have not tasted it.
1:24
But this morning in the morning meeting I did announce it to absolutely everybody that
1:28
I inhaled deodorant.
1:30
Did they enjoy that story?
1:31
I think they just tolerate me at this point.
1:34
They have just decided that she can speak her nonsense if she wants.
1:37
Well good.
1:38
At least they do that.
1:39
They've learned to ignore it.
1:42
I don't have any deodorant stories.
1:43
I'm trying to like bounce off that.
1:45
I've got none.
1:46
I think that's good for you.
1:48
Yeah.
1:49
World, do you have deodorant stories that you'd like to share?
1:52
Have you accidentally inhaled anything you didn't intend to?
1:55
Let us know on our TikTok.
1:58
We'd love to share your story.
2:01
We'd love to share your story of accidental inhalation.
2:04
Hmm.
2:05
Well that sounds worse.
2:06
No.
2:07
It's very much real.
2:10
I have inhaled like perfume and stuff.
2:12
Like as you spray that.
2:13
Yeah but you don't feel it all day.
2:15
No.
2:16
That's horrifying.
2:17
Like it is in my soul.
2:20
Your soul?
2:21
Yeah.
2:22
I'm not stinky anywhere.
2:23
Good.
2:24
Including my soul.
2:26
So like your liver is good to go.
2:29
Not smelly at all.
2:30
Honestly I think my liver might be worse off.
2:32
Oh.
2:33
That's possible.
2:34
I don't know how deodorant inhalation works.
2:35
I don't think it makes it to your liver.
2:38
I think it has.
2:40
I'm not sure that there are like clinical studies on it but.
2:44
Not many people have studied this.
2:45
No.
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I don't think many people do this.
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It was like I was spraying into the pits.
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You know I was spraying into the pits and there was a cloud around me.
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And I moved.
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And I moved back.
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And I inhaled.
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As one does when one breathes.
3:05
And it was a mistake.
3:06
It might be time to switch to a stick deodorant.
3:09
But like I have this so I want to use it up.
3:13
I think it just for your health it might be time.
3:17
I just want everybody to know.
3:19
PSA.
3:20
The Ultra Clear.
3:21
No.
3:22
The spray on deodorant that's supposed to last you 72 hours.
3:24
Wow.
3:25
Turns out you don't have to shower for 72 hours.
3:28
Don't breathe it in.
3:29
I have questions about the 72 hour thing.
3:31
That's on all kinds of deodorant now.
3:33
It's like 72 hours.
3:34
Is that really functional?
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And also who's keeping track?
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Oh I only have to apply my deodorant every.
3:41
Monday and Thursday.
3:43
What is happening there?
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Nobody's doing that.
3:45
They're not.
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Although I haven't researched it.
3:48
So not willing to make a statement.
3:50
No but I feel like nobody's doing that.
3:54
So today is part three of our Bathsheba series.
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And I believe we are actually going to do a part four because Brie really is excited
4:02
about going into the rest of her story.
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So you can kind of look forward to that next week.
4:08
Her story.
4:10
Her children's stories.
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Yeah I don't know how directly related to her it is but her stories in Second Samuel
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I think it's like chapters 11 and 12.
4:20
But if you read on it continues talking about King David's children and just there's a
4:24
lot of drama.
4:27
He's a dramatic human.
4:29
Wow.
4:30
If someone wrote out the entire story of my life it wouldn't make that interesting of
4:36
a tale.
4:37
You wouldn't read that book.
4:38
Honestly.
4:39
Okay.
4:40
Just letting everybody know.
4:41
Online dating out there.
4:43
Or like interviews.
4:45
Tell me something interesting about yourself.
4:46
Let me get to know you.
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There is nothing interesting about me.
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My mind goes blank.
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I forget my name.
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I forget any hobbies that I might have.
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I am like a blob.
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I would not recommend this being the first thing you talk about on your interview.
5:02
I don't.
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I let that one you know.
5:07
Save it as a shock factor.
5:08
Yeah they can find out about it later.
5:10
Yeah.
5:11
You do what?
5:12
Two truths and a lie later on.
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When you do that at your drunk Christmas party.
5:15
I host a podcast with my sister and we're raging feminists.
5:18
Two, I'm 97 years old.
5:22
Well that is the truthful one.
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So now you gotta come up with a lie.
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That's true.
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I've never told a lie.
5:32
Lies.
5:33
So anyway.
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That's Sheba.
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So today we're going to be talking about some of the more contemporary looks and takes on
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her.
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Because last first week we told the biblical version of her story and we talked through
5:49
it I think more from the perspective of real women.
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Not being told from the perspective of a man.
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And then last week we talked about, we did a little bit of research on her story and
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our good friend Mark's article.
6:07
So we went through that.
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Both really good ones.
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Both will lead into this.
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But if you know the basic story I think you can start here if you want to and then go
6:14
back.
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I feel like what's really interesting about doing this in three parts or four parts, however
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it is, I know her story like the back of my hand now.
6:23
I could just babble on Beth Sheba's entire life.
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Probably not her entire life but short little snippet of her entire life that we know about.
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It's really written into the core of my memory.
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But I think that's so good and I think that's why it's been really fun to take a really
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deep dive into this story because how often do you get to know the women of the Bible
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like this?
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To really understand them.
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Yeah, especially because their stories are so short.
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And like we've said before, just the little bits that you hear about her in church or
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in small groups, it doesn't really tell her true full story.
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So this week we're looking at modern day takes on her.
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Now we've talked about what we've heard in church before but I want to start off talking
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about a woman named Rachel Den Hollander.
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I like that last name.
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It's quite a last name.
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It's a lot of syllables.
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It wouldn't fit on a Scantron.
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It would not.
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I like that that's our metric.
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Scantron, man.
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My last name barely fits on a Scantron.
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Is your last name longer than my last name?
7:31
No, it's seven letters.
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Oh, it's the same.
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All right, moving on.
7:36
So Rachel spoke recently, I say recently, this article is from 2019.
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So recently in the grand scheme of things but not recently like yesterday.
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So she spoke at a Southern Baptist Convention.
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Now if you don't know a lot about the Southern Baptist Church, they are known as being very,
7:56
very conservative but also doesn't have the best PR when it comes to women.
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So they recently were voting on whether or not women could be pastors in the larger Southern
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Baptist Church.
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So you're not talking about one single church.
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You're talking about a group of churches that is governed by a board or whatever it is that
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they call themselves.
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A log.
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Yes, I think a log is what they call themselves.
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It's crazy.
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Like it was okay yesterday but today it's not and Jesus said it's not.
8:33
Right.
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So even if it wasn't looked down upon in that circle to begin with, it would have been kind
8:38
of wild.
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But yeah, it's like, ah, well, your calling from God doesn't matter to us anymore.
8:44
See you bye.
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And all of the people of your community.
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And your education that you have the same as the guy next door.
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So this woman that we're about to talk about, she spoke at a Southern Baptist Convention.
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She is part of, I believe, the Southern Baptist Church as a whole.
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Sorry for her.
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Which is not known for being kind to women.
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So when she got up at this conference, this is, I'm gonna go ahead and say the actual
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word because I think we'll be okay.
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Maybe YouTube won't like it.
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So this is what she said.
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She is an attorney and a stay at home mom and I'll go into her story a little bit in
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a second.
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But she got up and she said, David didn't fornicate, David raped.
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Which is quite a statement in A, a conservative space.
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And in B, a Christian space at all because that's just not a word that they like to use.
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At all costs, they want to make this situation, if they're talking about it at all, they want
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to smooth it over as much as possible and put as much blame on Bathsheba as they can
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because they don't want to mess with David's reputation.
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And again, that's what we do in society now.
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So it was pretty, I can't say it was overall inflammatory.
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I wasn't sitting there.
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I don't know.
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But here are some of the comments.
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So one of the things that she said is if you understand the power dynamics and you understand
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the Hebrew and you look at the Levitical examples and discussion of rape and you understand
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what Nathan, who's the prophet, is saying in his parable, it is abundantly clear from
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that text that David raped.
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And then she goes on to expand upon that.
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So on Twitter, now these are not necessarily people who are even of the faith, but comments
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on Twitter that came back.
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Ruthie You mean X.
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Bekkah Oh, I do actually.
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I do mean that, but I hate that I mean that.
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So one comment said, I love what the Den Hollanders have done for victim awareness, but this kind
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of thing is a perfect example of why it's really dangerous to let your own experiences
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cloud the way you read and understand scripture.
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This was from a pastor in Chicago.
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Ruthie No, I think your own experiences make the Bible more real to you because you're
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able to read that and say, oh, this is what happened to her.
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Bekkah So then another comment, it was a male commenter,
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that's all we know about him.
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And we'll go into her story in just a second.
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But another commenter said, if she wasn't a willing participant, she could have simply
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refused and dealt with the consequences.
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Ruthie What?
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Bekkah Countless people have chosen death over violating
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their own consciences.
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Ruthie What?
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Bekkah Uh huh.
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Now this is Twitter, guys.
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Trolls are everywhere.
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Ruthie That's just an insane statement.
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Like, preserve David.
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Don't say David did anything wrong.
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She should have died rather than let David take advantage of her.
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Bekkah Well, let's also make the point that she
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may not have had even that option.
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Ruthie That's true.
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Bekkah David's men, his guards, whatever you want to call them, went to get her.
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She didn't know what was happening.
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Did she have the option to throw herself off the roof at that point?
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Probably not.
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They probably came, grabbed her arms, carried her off, whether she wanted it or not.
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Ruthie Yeah.
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Oh my gosh.
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Bekkah I know.
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So Rachel's husband commented back, and I think it's really, his comment is very poignant.
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So they do a lot of this advocacy together.
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And he was basically paraphrasing what that man just said.
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He said, if she's not dead, it means she's an adulterous woman.
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Ruthie Oh my god.
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Bekkah He's just paraphrasing what was already said.
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Ruthie Yeah, but that's true.
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Bekkah But yeah, when you boil it down, and think of that in the context of today, of
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assault today, if a woman walks down the street and is assaulted, and she doesn't die to stop
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that from happening, now she's part of it.
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She's part of the wrongdoing.
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Ruthie I dare you to look into the eyes of a woman who has taken advantage of and say,
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your life is not worth living.
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You should have died.
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Bekkah Well, that's why these things are said on Twitter, and not to someone's face.
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So Rachel, her story is quite incredible, actually.
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So she, if you didn't hear about this story, this was very big where we live, because we
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live in Michigan, and this happened at Michigan State.
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She actually grew up not too far from where we went to college.
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Ruthie We went to college right next door to each other.
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Bekkah We did.
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Ruthie I didn't want to go to your college.
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I didn't want to be associated with you.
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Bekkah You loved me.
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I was with you all the time.
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Ruthie I think you loved me.
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Bekkah I think at this point, again, we've morphed into the same person.
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Ruthie We have mutual love.
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Bekkah So Rachel was one of the women, actually one of the first women to go public with accusations
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against Larry Nassar, who was the doctor for the gymnastics team at Michigan State.
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And he was accused and convicted of assaulting hundreds of girls.
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Was it just the Michigan State gymnastics team, or was it the Olympic?
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Bekkah He was at Michigan State, it had something to do with the Olympics.
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I'm not 100% clear on where all of the girls came from, but they were primarily underage,
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if not all underage.
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And so this happened to her, and then she didn't say anything, or didn't get traction
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on having said anything for about six or seven years.
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And this was happening to girls the whole time, before her, after her, and other people
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had come forward and said things, but it was again, brushed away.
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Ruthie Exactly, because we need to keep him in power, or his job is more important than
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your literal well-being.
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Bekkah So Rachel went on, she was the first one to get some traction with an accusation,
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she wasn't going to drop it.
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She essentially organized a group of women willing to testify, she was then the last
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woman to testify in his case.
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And she got up on the stand, and she essentially begged the jury to give this man the full
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possible sentence, the highest amount of years in prison that they possibly could.
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And she ended her statement by saying, how much is a little girl worth?
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And then she went on to say, these victims are worth everything.
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I plead with you to impose the maximum sentence under the plea agreement, because everything
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is what these survivors are worth.
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Now I want you to imagine looking at this woman, this woman who was assaulted, and then
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who built an army of people to go against the man that hurt them.
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And I want you to imagine looking her in the face and saying, you were complicit in that,
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because you should have died instead.
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Ruthie You should have died instead, yeah.
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Your life isn't worth living if you have lived through this.
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Bekkah I just, it's beyond me.
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That's insane.
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It's insane.
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And so this again informs where the pastor that commented on Twitter, when he said like,
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oh, your personal experiences have shaped the way you're seeing the Bible.
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When this woman says, I'm looking at a story and I'm seeing assault, abuse and rape.
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You don't question that.
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Ruthie You do not question it.
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How dare you?
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Bekkah She knows what she's talking about.
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A whole lot more than a random pastor from Chicago.
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She knows exactly what she's talking about, so don't question her when she says these
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things.
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Additionally, even if let's say you looked at this and you were like, I don't know, maybe
17:00
you don't know her story, something like that.
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The Bible backs her up.
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Ruthie Yeah, it really does.
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Bekkah Like it really, really backs her up to the point that even a lot of conservative
17:11
pastors are flipping around and saying, yeah, okay, the Bathsheba really wasn't at fault
17:19
here.
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Ruthie And we talked about that in the last two episodes, but like specifically the story
17:23
of the lamb that Nathan talked about.
17:28
How innocent that says she is.
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She's completely innocent.
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She is without fault.
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And again, at no point was she told Bathsheba, we're back on Bathsheba now.
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Bekkah What about Bath?
17:39
Ruthie At no point was she told, go and sin no more,
17:45
turn from your sinful ways.
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Like whatever you want to, whatever phrasing you want to use that was used with other people
17:51
in the Bible, wasn't used with her.
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It wasn't there.
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So the Bible in no small way says that it's her fault and really distinctly says that
18:03
it's David's fault.
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So it's really hard to get to a place where it's not 100% on him.
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So that was kind of her story.
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And I just thought that was really powerful and I was really excited to learn about who
18:20
she is.
18:21
She's gone Rachel, Rachel Dunhollander.
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Sorry, we're going back and forth between multiple she's at this point.
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Bekkah I was following you, but not everybody's your sister.
18:28
Ruthie Okay, sorry.
18:29
So I was excited to learn about Rachel Dunhollander because she has gone on to write, I think,
18:39
four books.
18:40
Yes, so four books.
18:43
One is a memoir that's titled What is a Girl Worth?
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She also has two children's books out and titled How Much is a Little Girl Worth?
18:51
And then How Much is a Little Boy Worth?
18:54
And then she also has a third book called Discover Your True Worth.
18:59
So she's really taken her advocacy to a whole new level.
19:02
Bekkah That'd be interesting for us to read.
19:04
Ruthie It was published by Tyndale.
19:06
So if you guys want to check any of those out.
19:08
Bekkah Different from Ashley Tisdale?
19:10
Ruthie Yes, and she's now married and has four children.
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So person who wants to say that your life is over after these situations.
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Clearly God was not done with her story yet.
19:24
Very clearly God was not done with her story.
19:27
And very clearly God was not done with Bathsheba's story.
19:31
Because she goes on to be the mother of Solomon and through her is the lineage of Jesus.
19:37
That's a pretty big I'm not done with you.
19:39
Bekkah That is a pretty big slap into the face of...
19:44
Into the face?
19:45
Ruthie Slap in the face.
19:49
To that guy on Twitter.
19:51
Bekkah Yeah.
19:52
Ruthie Like really?
19:54
Bekkah Yeah.
19:55
Ruthie Without her you wouldn't have Jesus.
19:59
Without her you wouldn't have heaven.
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Dang it all the heck.
20:04
I want to slap that guy on Twitter.
20:06
Bekkah Well I don't think he can because we don't know who he is.
20:09
But maybe we can find out.
20:11
Ruthie I was watching a YouTube video today.
20:15
You told me to research and so I was trying with YouTube.
20:18
It was like this untold story of Bathsheba.
20:22
And it was just so interesting to me the power of words.
20:28
So it's not someone reading the actual verses of her story.
20:32
It's just someone kind of giving the general gist of her story.
20:37
And they said their adultery.
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Their adultery.
20:42
And just the power of words there.
20:44
It wasn't up to her.
20:46
It wasn't adultery.
20:48
It was rape.
20:49
Bekkah Yep.
20:51
And that's the wording that you find almost everywhere.
20:55
So another one of the articles that I read.
20:58
Now this is a little bit of an older one as well.
20:59
It's from 2017.
21:00
Ruthie Why are you saying that's old?
21:02
Bekkah I'm sorry.
21:03
Ruthie I'm feeling incredibly old.
21:06
Bekkah I'm sorry.
21:07
That was seven years ago.
21:10
Oh my gosh.
21:13
Bekkah And the reason a lot of these resources are older is because Bathsheba's story got
21:19
some press.
21:22
And it became very unpopular to call her the one at fault.
21:28
So you started seeing even conservative pastors kind of like backpedaling at least publicly.
21:34
Now you're not seeing the same thing in church services where it's not necessarily being
21:39
recorded and posted or even if it is it's not getting a lot of views.
21:43
You know your local church may post a video and get a hundred views on it.
21:47
Two hundred views on it.
21:49
But the likelihood of that getting a lot of negative feedback is pretty low.
21:55
So you do see it in churches still but you aren't seeing it necessarily on people's blogs,
22:00
on people's Twitter, on people's whatever.
22:03
Actually one of the articles that I was reading she calls and I think this is a fairly common
22:07
term but it's newer for me.
22:09
She calls the like the men that are all about you know the patriarchal Christianity and
22:14
women submitting and whatever she calls them Theo bros.
22:17
And I thought that was hilarious.
22:20
But she even said that most of the Theo bros have kind of turned the other way on this
22:27
story if they talk about it at all which you're not going to get them to talk about it very
22:31
often but if you do then they'll at least say she wasn't at fault.
22:36
They won't necessarily call it out for what it is but they at least will try not to say
22:40
it's her fault.
22:41
Right.
22:42
I saw a TikTok today.
22:45
This is not necessarily on topic but I sent it to the we are more TikTok we can repost
22:52
it.
22:53
But this lady was just saying essentially why do you think these Gen Z men are flocking
22:58
to the church?
23:00
They're flocking to the church because they found an institution that tells them they
23:03
have no faults and that they are in complete power and now you see just droves of women
23:11
leaving the church because this institution has told women that they are worth nothing
23:17
other than bearing the children of these all-important men and that everything is their fault.
23:25
Well I think that actually really ties into I was working on an article at work and it
23:30
talked about how I think they say 70% of divorces in the United States are initiated by women
23:38
and that gets thrown out by the theobro community and people like that to say look women are
23:44
terrible, they're just divorcing men left and right, they hate the institution of marriage,
23:48
etc.
23:49
But the reality is what's happening is women are starting to have the ability to value
23:55
themselves more and they don't have to sit there while you treat them like garbage.
24:01
Well they've said that on other TikToks that I've seen marriage is great for men specifically
24:08
because it gives them someone to take care of their children, it gives them someone to
24:13
cook, to clean, to run their house, but it's not necessarily fantastic for women because
24:20
they still in 2024 have to have a part-time or full-time job to help support the family,
24:26
but they also are taking on all these like traditional roles too so it's not necessarily
24:34
great for women.
24:35
It's not necessarily a benefit, so it's like you said a couple episodes ago and we're a
24:40
little off topic but we'll come back.
24:42
I think you said...
24:43
I've said a lot of things.
24:46
You said in order to get married a man has to be more valuable to you than being by yourself.
24:54
Yeah, you have to compete with me, with my time, with how much I like being by myself
25:01
and that is a big competition.
25:04
I love spending time by myself.
25:06
I think you can see...
25:09
I don't find the divorce rate a horrifying thing.
25:12
I know that's like a really controversial thing to say as a Christian, but I think God values
25:17
you more than he values your marriage.
25:20
He values your safety and well-being, whether that's mental well-being or physical well-being,
25:29
more than he values the rule of staying married.
25:34
I truly believe that in my heart and so I find that the ability, not that divorce is
25:44
a great thing, not that it isn't hurtful, not that it doesn't rip people to shreds at
25:49
times, but the fact that the ability is out there for women to walk away, for Christian
25:57
women to walk away from terrible situations, I'm applauding that.
26:03
I'm totally behind that.
26:05
When were women legally allowed to initiate divorce?
26:08
I don't know.
26:09
I'm Googling.
26:10
Oh, it's not an easy answer.
26:13
It's probably state by state.
26:15
But it's not all that long ago that women were actually allowed to initiate divorce.
26:21
And even beyond allowed to, that most women, let's say most women, had the financial stability
26:29
to do so.
26:31
And now you're looking at a world where a lot of women do, not every woman, but a lot
26:35
of women do and I think that's something to applaud.
26:39
Yeah, equality.
26:40
Equality.
26:41
All right, now back to our main topic.
26:44
And back to our scheduled episode.
26:47
So another article that I read, it's from Diana Lee Matthews and it's her website is
26:53
dianaleematthews.com.
26:54
I read a little bit about her.
26:57
I'm not really sure if she lands on the more conservative side or not, but she has a pretty
27:03
robust blog and she-
27:05
That's how I take my coffee.
27:08
Robust.
27:10
So she has a series called Mothers of the Bible and one of them is Bathsheba.
27:16
Now there are just a couple of things that I want to highlight.
27:18
Her overall article is pretty solid.
27:21
She talks about Bathsheba's whole story.
27:24
She also goes into after David dies and Solomon takes over as king, etc.
27:30
But a couple of things that I want to point out is one, the pictures that she uses.
27:36
Now she does not say where these come from.
27:39
I don't know exactly where she got them from.
27:42
A lot of them I was noticing on the YouTube videos I was watching today were AI.
27:46
Oh, well this would have been before AI.
27:49
This was 2017.
27:50
Seven whole years ago.
27:51
Far, far in the past.
27:56
So I'm going to show these to Brie right now.
27:57
She has not seen them.
27:59
What in the heck?
28:03
So the first one is Bathsheba standing-
28:05
This looks like a flanograph.
28:08
Is that what they call it?
28:09
Flan-o-graph.
28:10
What is a flanograph?
28:12
It's a flanograph.
28:16
So the first picture-
28:17
I've seen that picture.
28:18
I literally think that's a flanograph.
28:20
That's not a flanograph, you weirdo.
28:23
No, I'm like 50% positive that's a flanograph.
28:28
Well I've seen that picture before.
28:31
So the first picture is Bathsheba standing just sort of out in the middle of wherever
28:37
and she's covering up her boobs with her hair and her arms and her bath is just out in the
28:42
middle of nowhere and she's like got her head off to the side and she's very clearly being
28:50
seductive and you can see David very nearby.
28:54
I mean like he's 50 yards away staring her down and if you were this woman in this picture
29:01
you would absolutely know that that man was staring at you.
29:04
The second picture is then I assume a similar- it's supposed to be the same moment and she's
29:11
stepping into the largest bathtub that's ever existed or an actual pool.
29:16
I don't think they remember what the Bible times were like.
29:19
This person didn't.
29:20
Because she was the wife of a soldier.
29:23
She wasn't like royalty.
29:25
No, and nobody had this anyway.
29:28
This is a pool.
29:29
She's literally stepping into a pool.
29:30
An Olympic sized swimming pool bare naked.
29:34
And she's- he's staring at her.
29:36
And again very close by the woman in this picture would have known that someone was
29:41
staring at her.
29:42
I just want everybody to know that I just googled Beth Sheba flannel graph and nothing
29:47
popped up.
29:50
So Bree's 50% chance when she says later on 50-50 ignore her.
29:55
I was in the wrong.
29:58
So then another couple things that I want to point out here.
30:02
One of the things that she says is we do not know how innocent or complacent Bath Sheba
30:07
is in her affair with David.
30:09
Most likely she is given no choice.
30:12
And I think that's how a lot of Christians approach it.
30:16
Like well we just don't know.
30:17
The Bible doesn't say for sure.
30:19
I think it does.
30:20
It does.
30:21
It says he went and got her.
30:23
Yeah, let's just end this argument right here.
30:25
The Bible itself, not just Alyssa and Brianna sitting here.
30:29
The Bible tells you what happened.
30:33
You have to be in full denial to not recognize that that is what the Bible says is happening.
30:41
If today you were sitting in your room and literally in your room in your house and two
30:50
people from the government, two FBI agents show up at your door and they say, hey, the
30:58
president would like to see you.
31:02
And then you, do you have an option there?
31:05
Do you have an option to say-
31:06
They've literally come into your home.
31:07
No thank you.
31:08
No, they're taking you whether you like it or not.
31:11
Right there at that moment, you are at no fault for what's about to happen.
31:17
Just right there.
31:18
Just right there.
31:19
Forget the rest of the story.
31:20
Exactly.
31:21
Where David is a peeping Tom.
31:23
He's a peeping Tom.
31:24
Where he's being a creeper.
31:25
He's a liar.
31:26
He's a murderer.
31:27
I understand that it's easy to defend him because it makes your life easier.
31:37
It makes your faith a little bit easier potentially because you don't have to work out why does
31:43
God say this is a man after God's own heart?
31:45
Why does he write several portions of the Bible?
31:48
You don't have to figure that out.
31:50
But one of the quotes that I found I believe from Rachel said that it costs you nothing
31:58
to defend the abuser.
32:01
It costs you nothing.
32:04
It costs you something oftentimes to defend the abused.
32:09
And so it's going to cost us something in this scenario to defend Bathsheba.
32:14
It's going to cost us some confusion about our faith.
32:20
It's going to cost us some questions.
32:22
It's going to cost us talking to God about really hard stuff.
32:26
I think your faith cannot grow and mature and you can't have a real relationship with
32:34
God unless you start to question some things.
32:38
You start to really dig deep into why do I believe this?
32:43
Why do I have faith in heaven and God and Jesus?
32:47
You have to question things.
32:48
And I think God encourages it.
32:51
I've had a lot of periods in my life of...
32:53
I've also had a lot of periods.
32:55
How often are we going to mention our periods?
32:58
It's a lot at this point.
32:59
Sorry, Dad.
33:00
No, but I've had a lot of times in my life where I've struggled with my faith.
33:08
Where I've either...
33:09
I don't think I've ever not believed in any sort of God, but either believed that God
33:14
was not good or things like that.
33:16
Where I've just really struggled with that.
33:19
I was taught by churches, by many people, to not question too hard your faith.
33:28
Don't ask those big questions because then you might walk away from your faith completely.
33:33
I was thinking about this story the other day and asking some really big questions.
33:38
I had that feeling of like, oh, shouldn't do that.
33:41
Like that stopping yourself moment.
33:43
I just felt this...I know this is going to sound weird, okay guys?
33:47
But I just felt like God was telling me, you can question me.
33:51
I'll hold up.
33:52
That's not weird.
33:54
This is a Christian podcast.
33:55
You're not familiar with the faith.
33:58
Of the faith.
33:59
No, but I really felt like God was like, I'll hold up.
34:04
You can ask all the hard questions.
34:07
Faith is called faith for a reason.
34:09
It means that you don't have all the answers.
34:12
It doesn't mean that you have all the proof.
34:14
You can still have faith and you can still have questions.
34:17
Some of these questions we're not going to get answers to until we meet Jesus.
34:24
Hopefully sooner rather than later.
34:26
Well you are 97.
34:27
I am 97.
34:28
I'm not sure how much longer it's going to last.
34:30
I'm barely able to turn my head to breathe.
34:32
Someone's going to actually believe that at some point.
34:34
They're going to be concerned.
34:35
I look good for 97.
34:37
You do look great for 97.
34:38
You don't look great for...
34:40
Zip it.
34:41
And I do.
34:44
Thank you very much.
34:47
So that was all I wanted to go into on that one.
34:49
So I'm going to read a couple of quotes and talk about them.
34:52
I wish you would.
34:53
I will.
34:54
I love when people read to me.
34:56
I know you do.
34:57
You really do.
34:58
It's kind of strange.
34:59
I don't have to do anything else.
35:00
I don't have to focus on anything else.
35:01
Okay, just sit and listen.
35:02
All right, well listen, it's a one sentence thing.
35:05
So one of the quotes that I found, it said, stop gaslighting people with Goliath's death
35:09
while Bathsheba is killing you.
35:13
So I'm not exactly sure.
35:15
I think it's...
35:16
That's a lot of words.
35:17
I need you to break that down for me.
35:20
I think essentially they're saying he was writing the fame and the like, oh look, God
35:27
wants to use me of Goliath's death from when he was younger.
35:32
Right.
35:33
I forget that those are the same people.
35:34
It is.
35:35
And then...
35:36
It is.
35:37
Shut up.
35:38
I'm just going to continue that sentence and it's going nowhere.
35:41
And then in modern day, Bathsheba's existence, I guess, is killing him.
35:48
But the reality is, again, we use her name here instead of saying your sin is killing
35:55
you, your lust is killing you, your stupidity is killing you.
36:02
We use her name as though it's her fault.
36:05
I saw another YouTube video today.
36:08
I was looking at all of them.
36:09
It was like, Bathsheba, victim or villain?
36:12
Is that even a question?
36:14
I think unfortunately it is something that people are asking.
36:19
That video did say victim, but to even put that as a question is disgusting.
36:25
Right.
36:26
Well, I think people are right now trying to use it as like a buzz phrase to get you
36:31
to click on it.
36:33
But the unfortunate reality is the reason that that can happen is because she's been
36:38
turned into the villain in the past for countless years at this point.
36:43
And how often...
36:44
I know that we've said this a million times in all of our other Bathsheba podcasts, but
36:49
how many times in modern day are we villainizing women for being victims?
36:56
All the time.
36:57
All the time.
36:58
Her dress was too short.
36:59
She was asking for it.
37:01
Did you see how low cut her top was?
37:02
She was walking in the wrong part of town.
37:06
She was drunk.
37:08
Just the argument of whether or not she was naked is the same argument as what was she
37:14
wearing.
37:15
Right.
37:16
Do you shower naked?
37:17
I mean, when I was a kid I used to wear my socks in the shower because I thought I was
37:21
being rebellious.
37:22
What?
37:23
I don't know.
37:24
I was a weird kid.
37:26
Not all the time.
37:28
Just sometimes.
37:29
You know, I think I know everything about you and then you spit stuff like that out.
37:34
You never wore your socks in the shower just to see how it felt?
37:37
You have an utter terror of wet socks.
37:41
Partially wet socks.
37:42
But if they're fully submerged, it's fine.
37:43
It's the same sensation across all your feet.
37:47
I don't think so.
37:48
I worry about you.
37:50
Deeply.
37:51
I worry about myself too.
37:54
Anyway.
37:56
Starting off that same vein, one of the things that I found was called Bathsheba Syndrome.
38:01
Like the villain from The Incredibles?
38:03
No.
38:04
Syndrome.
38:05
But that was a good movie.
38:07
I think they're making a part three.
38:08
What?
38:09
Yeah.
38:10
I think they announced that at D23.
38:11
Which is Disney Comic Con for those of you who are not fully Disney adults.
38:17
Anyway.
38:18
So Bathsheba Syndrome.
38:21
I had never heard of this.
38:23
So I don't know that this is the most mainstream term in the world.
38:26
Let me guess what it is.
38:28
Hang on.
38:29
You shower naked.
38:31
Yes.
38:33
So you all have it.
38:34
Except for Brianna.
38:35
Bathsheba Syndrome.
38:36
Who showers with their socks on.
38:38
Not now.
38:39
Only when I was a child.
38:41
That doesn't make it better.
38:43
You weirdo.
38:44
I'm not weird.
38:46
Someone out there will really.
38:47
No, they won't.
38:48
So Bathsheba Syndrome.
38:50
Like I said, I don't think this is a super common term, but it was one that I came across
38:54
in my research.
38:56
And primarily used for religious leaders, but I think it could be used for any leaders.
39:02
Google says Bathsheba Syndrome is a term used to describe the ethical failures of successful
39:08
leaders who are unable to deal with the consequences of their success.
39:12
What?
39:13
The term comes from the story of King David, which is familiar in many traditions.
39:18
Why are we calling it Bathsheba Syndrome?
39:21
Because I don't know.
39:23
So essentially it's describing.
39:26
David.
39:27
David.
39:28
But because we have to put it on the woman all the time, we call it Bathsheba Syndrome.
39:35
Now.
39:36
Is it just because her name was more fun to say than David?
39:40
I mean.
39:41
Ew, David.
39:43
I think David Syndrome might be a little bit confusing.
39:46
However, Bathsheba Syndrome absolutely makes it sound like she's at fault.
39:53
She's causing the problem.
39:56
She has created an issue.
39:58
She caused her brother in Christ to stumble.
40:01
I want to do a whole episode on that.
40:05
I want to do five episodes on that.
40:07
You know, it'd be a good song to go with all of that.
40:09
You got me trippin.
40:10
Ooh, stumbling.
40:11
Ooh, man, man.
40:12
Now you guys.
40:13
That's Fergalicious.
40:14
Nope, it's Fergie.
40:15
Just in general.
40:16
It's called Clumsy.
40:17
Fergalicious is another song.
40:18
Oh, good.
40:19
By Fergie.
40:20
So I just thought that was kind of insane.
40:25
Yeah.
40:26
That everywhere this poor woman is depicted, whether it's in art, whether it's in classic
40:33
literature, there's actually a movie I found as well.
40:37
Like from.
40:38
I want to say it's the 50s.
40:39
The 50s?
40:40
They weren't allowed to do that in the 50s.
40:41
You couldn't be nude on TV.
40:42
They didn't have nude on TV.
40:43
They didn't have that in the 50s.
40:46
You couldn't be nude on TV.
40:47
They didn't have Netflix back then.
40:48
Oh, another quote on the similar vein.
40:49
David defeated Goliath but lost to Bathsheba.
40:53
Our real giants are the desires we haven't killed yet.
40:56
But it's not Goliath.
40:59
What?
41:01
I want to point out.
41:02
She wasn't looking to take him down.
41:04
She was looking to take up Earth.
41:06
I also want to point out that it says we haven't killed yet.
41:10
Oh, good.
41:11
We've talked before about how when you look at the risk for men versus women when it comes
41:16
to rejection, when it comes to any of these things, oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes
41:22
the risk for men in putting themselves out there or in telling their story or in whatever
41:28
is pretty simply rejection.
41:32
I'm not saying for every moment.
41:33
I'm not saying.
41:34
A little bit of hurt ego.
41:35
Yeah.
41:36
I'm not saying rejection is not difficult in certain circumstances.
41:38
But you compare that with the risks for women and it's right in this quote.
41:43
It's right here.
41:45
We're trying to stay alive.
41:47
Our risk is death.
41:49
How often are you watching the news and you hear something tragic that happens?
41:54
You know, XYZ that you see on the news.
41:57
Terrible, horrible things.
41:58
How often are you seeing a woman being the main villain?
42:04
And it does happen and it does happen occasionally.
42:09
It's like, whoa, that's crazy.
42:13
It's shocking.
42:15
It's not shocking for a man to murder his wife or his girlfriend or go crazy in a grocery
42:24
store or school.
42:26
It's just why are we always accepting that men are so violent?
42:32
You know, how do we flip the script?
42:37
How can women become more violent?
42:41
I think it's as I look through all of, I've got a bunch of screenshots here and it's David
42:48
sin with Bathsheba.
42:50
That's one of the titles of a sermon that was against, right?
42:55
How about many things?
42:58
It's just, it becomes abundantly clear that as Christians we are working overtime to keep
43:07
David clean.
43:11
To keep his story pure.
43:14
But the Bible isn't doing that.
43:18
Even modern day, and like I said, it's not popular to anymore blame her because-
43:24
Because we're getting woke.
43:28
Well, at least on the internet, people are trying not to seem quite as bad.
43:34
So this is a quote from Baptist News Global.
43:37
My favorite.
43:40
And it's a quote that they are just describing something.
43:47
So it says male dominated cultures like Bathsheba's and our own teach women that they are responsible
43:52
for men's lust.
43:54
Women may think and may have been told that their behavior evokes this response in men.
43:58
Somehow they have telegraphed availability messages.
44:02
As a consequence, when men lust after them, some women feel guilty.
44:07
Somehow they think they have caused the sexual harassment, the unwanted sexual come ons or
44:11
touching or even the rape.
44:13
Do you think they feel that way maybe because society tells them they're at fault?
44:18
The church tells them they are at fault?
44:22
They tell them that the very sight of their bra straps could cause their brother in crisis
44:27
to stumble?
44:30
One of the articles that I read as well was saying that maybe part of the reason that
44:35
these megachurch pastors are so quick to defend David and pretend that this is not a story
44:40
of what it is, is because think of how many of those pastors have maybe not- some of them
44:48
have done such an extreme act against women, but many, many, many of them have been accused
44:55
of terrible things against women.
44:58
I mean just a couple of weeks ago.
45:00
We heard from people in our own community.
45:04
So if you think about the fact that there's an ulterior motive here.
45:09
Yeah, of course.
45:11
If they make him look a little less guilty, they don't feel as guilty themselves and they
45:16
can write off a lot of wrongdoings of their own.
45:19
Because this was a man after God's own heart.
45:21
Yes, and so am I.
45:23
Right.
45:24
And if God was willing to excuse David's sin, then well, mine's probably fine also.
45:31
And turns out I can do whatever I want if I just ask for forgiveness.
45:35
The more you look into it, and we've really researched this story, okay?
45:41
To death.
45:42
It's only two chapters of the Bible, guys.
45:45
We've really researched this story.
45:48
And it becomes so painfully clear that anyone defending David in this story is wrong.
45:56
Is wrong?
45:57
And is not reading their Bible.
45:59
No.
46:00
God is not defending David in this story.
46:03
It's almost like, you know when you're talking to someone and rather than listening to you,
46:08
they're thinking about how they're going to respond.
46:11
That's how people read their Bibles half the time.
46:13
That's good.
46:14
I know.
46:15
It's the wine.
46:18
They're not actually reading to learn from God.
46:22
They're learning to excuse themselves.
46:27
Or find a loophole.
46:28
Yeah.
46:29
How can I use this passage of the Bible?
46:32
I've been watching, I'm sure I've said this before, but I've been watching a lot of Mormon
46:36
content on YouTube.
46:37
Between you and Mom, I'm convinced you're going to become a Mormon in Mom's Anomachy.
46:44
I'm very confused.
46:45
Well, I've been watching, if it helps, ex-Mormon content.
46:50
And I'm just fascinated by the Mormon Church.
46:54
It's very different from anything that I grew up with.
46:58
It's interesting.
46:59
And they talk a lot about the fact that it's a high control religion.
47:06
And so people are always trying to find loopholes.
47:10
Because if it doesn't exactly say you can't do this specific thing, then it must be fine.
47:18
And I think that Christians are often doing the same thing.
47:21
100%.
47:23
And I wouldn't necessarily consider Christianity a high control religion.
47:27
Now you may disagree with me on that, but when I look at Christianity I see-
47:32
Compared to other religions.
47:34
Sure.
47:35
I see choices.
47:38
God's not about to kick you out of the church because you sin, because you do this, because
47:43
you do that.
47:44
There's not a list of rules.
47:45
Whereas, actually, with Mormonism there is a list of rules that you then can't enter
47:49
the temple if you've broken them.
47:52
I don't see that happening in Christianity.
47:54
Now there may be certain spaces in Christianity where that's happening.
47:58
But I think because we like to do our own thing, follow our own rules, whatever, we
48:05
do try and find those loopholes.
48:07
Some people use this story, certainly, as a loophole.
48:12
How can I get out of doing what God tells me to do?
48:15
How can I excuse my own horrific behavior against women?
48:19
Well, David did it.
48:21
So it's probably fine.
48:23
It's probably fine.
48:24
He was a man after God's own heart, so I can do what I want.
48:27
And we'll just forget that chapter 12 where anything comes in.
48:30
And maybe that's not conscious thoughts, but it's all these little things that you're being
48:34
taught in church or not being taught in church that add up to that conclusion in your head.
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But it's okay.
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Whatever I'm doing is fine.
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Well, think of also, we talk a lot about making the women of the Bible real, turning them
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into real people, real women that have female experiences and fears and rage.
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And I think in churches we do sometimes get that with the men of the Bible.
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To me, David feels like a real person.
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Paul feels like a real person.
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These men of the Bible, I've heard enough about them that they feel like real people.
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But how often have you heard this story told where Bathsheba becomes a real person to you?
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Never.
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Literally never.
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Not until now.
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Because she's not the important part of her own story.
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But if we make her into a real person, now we can follow what the Bible has actually
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said, which is she was a victim.
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She was told to show up.
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She was not loved by her husband.
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There's not even, and some of the resources that I was looking at said, oh, and she was
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able to forgive him for his sin as well.
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And then they had this great connection after that and blah, blah, blah.
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But that is not in the Bible.
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It's super not.
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And I think we have to assume based on David's relationships with his other wives that we
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aren't really seeing at all and the fact that David was a relatively selfish person, that
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they probably didn't have much of a relationship at all moving forward.
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So this was a woman who had been raped, whose husband had been murdered, who then had to
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marry the man that raped her, lost her son because of her now husband's sin against her.
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And then she has to stay married to this man.
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And we don't know what kind of relationship they have.
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This is going off of the fact that we don't know, the fact that there's no talk of it.
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I think if it was important enough, it would be in the Bible.
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It would say, and Bathsheba forgave David and they lived happily ever after.
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Because that would be an important part of the story.
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But it's not there.
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It's not there.
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Now, she does have a really incredible after he dies part of her story, because she was
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probably significantly younger than he was.
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So he died.
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Ha ha.
51:02
And then she keeps going.
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But she was a real person with this real story.
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And I think until she becomes that real person for you, it is really hard to see that she
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was a victim here.
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But as we close out this part of the series, now we'll again talk about the rest of her
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story and her children and David's children.
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Yay, Brie, for more research.
51:27
Woo!
51:28
So we'll go into that next week.
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But just as we close out this part of her story, I hope that she's become real to all
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of you.
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I hope that you can move forward with her story and ask really hard questions yourselves.
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I don't want to answer those questions for you.
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No, I'm not here to do that.
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Start researching.
51:51
Start asking big questions.
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Start asking them of the people in your life, of the Bible, of God, of the internet, if
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that's helpful for you.
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Read these stories in the Bible with no expectations, no other preconceived notions.
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Just read what the actual words say and try to come to some conclusions on your own too.
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Read it in multiple different versions, like Elyssa did.
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I wrote it in a lot of versions.
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And I think God will speak to you in that.
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God will meet you right there.
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And if that happens for you or if you have questions, please reach out to us.
52:31
We would love to hear them.
52:32
We would love to talk about them.
52:35
We might not have all the answers, but we can talk.
52:37
We can talk.
52:38
We will talk.
52:39
And we can research.
52:41
I can research.
52:42
I'll send you a TikTok.
52:43
Briel will send you a TikTok.
52:44
All right, guys, I want to go to bed.
52:49
Wait.
52:50
Um, are you from?
52:52
Oh no.
52:53
Thailand?
52:54
Okay.
52:55
Thailand!
52:56
I like your food.
53:00
They do have good food.
53:03
So if you're from Thailand and you would like to listen about females, faith, and feminism,
53:08
and sisters, and wine.
53:10
And periods.
53:11
And periods.
53:12
That's it.
53:13
If you would like to listen to us.
53:19
You guys can also follow us on TikTok and Instagram.
53:23
On TikTok we are we.r.more4.
53:27
Just search the hashtag we are more.
53:29
And I don't really know what, search the hashtag we are more on Instagram too.
53:32
I would have to look up what our technical username is.
53:35
I don't know.
53:36
We are more something.
53:37
But we do a lot of previews over there and we love to get any of your feedback.
53:41
We've been getting some great feedback lately and maybe we'll have a whole episode where
53:45
we get to talk about it.
53:46
But we have talked about a couple little things.
53:48
A little bit of here and there.
53:50
So if you have any questions or comments.
53:53
Concerns?
53:54
I have many concerns.
53:57
Where do I, do you have an inbox I can send them to?
54:00
Yeah, it's called shutup.com.
54:02
All right, we'll see you guys next week for part four.
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Goodbye!
54:08
I love you.
54:09
Bye!