Latest / Motherhood Uncut / Motherhood and Spirituality | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 1 Episode 9

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Motherhood and Spirituality | Motherhood Uncut Podcast | Season 1 Episode 9 · Motherhood Uncut

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Motherhood Uncut podcast, where Deb Rubin and I, Kate Crickke, show up weekly to jump in to those conversations that we know have to be happening about motherhood.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: We are coming fully to you, uncut, with our own stories and challenges and successes in motherhood, as well as bringing to you some data and research and clinical anecdotes and all kinds of stuff so that we can all help each other get unstuck.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: We are not meant to mother alone.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: So pull up a chair.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Come join us in these conversations.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: We are so glad you're here.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 0:46
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• 0:48
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• 0:53
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• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: We also want you to know about the programs happening, both over uh with Deb and with me.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: You can find out more about Deb's really incredible mother-daughter journey workshops.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: I am not kidding, these workshops set me and both daughters up for total success in adolescence.
• 1:41
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• 1:50
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• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to join my Healthy Mom membership, which is really an awesome, low-hanging fruit way to begin a more active process in leaning into health and wellness in motherhood.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: You will come over and join other phenomenal moms like you who are learning about how to step into greatness.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: We have amazing speakers.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Deb actually came and spoke twice.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Once about parenting, once about sex and sexuality in motherhood, we have other phenomenal speakers all lined up so you can learn about that membership on my web on my website, and we'll put all the links in the show notes.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the show.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, Deb.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Kate.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Happy Podcast Day.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: Happy Podcast Day.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um I am better now that I'm sitting here with you.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Me too, really.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: So what are we talking about today, Deb?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we have we have a lot of conversations about the struggle, right?
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: We all know that parenting is really challenging.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's the biggest, hardest, most amazing mountain you'll ever climb, right?
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we talk about self-care, what the fuck is that anyway?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: We talk about how to work with substance, we talk about judgment, we've talked about a lot of things.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Today we're gonna talk about how do we move through or move with the struggle in a really tender and curious way.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, I think we can get stuck as moms talking about all the things that feel hard and all the things that feel frustrating.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I really honor about our mothering partnership our marriage.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: Our marriage.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, we will continue to support in any way we can other mothers to find other mother partners because it really does make a big difference.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: But one of the things we do so well is make space to talk about the shit.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And validate that.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: We do.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things we wanted to bring to you, listeners, today, was our part in that, in our journey in that.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: And what is it that allows us, Deb, to move from heartbreak in motherhood to confidence and trust and lightness and even joy, even humor, even when the things feel really hard, because we do that well.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: So I think one thing that we have kind of done as long as we've been friends is we look at parenting as a spiritual journey.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sure do.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that word in itself is can be activating for some, it can be overused, but actually at its purest form, it's actually a really simple concept.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: So why don't you tell me the recent definition you've heard of spirituality, which I think is how we both see it, but it's so beautifully said.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and maybe I'll start by saying, I used to be so intimidated to use that word or to talk about God or spirit or divine meaning or energy or any of those words.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like I used to use I used to keep them out of my therapy practice.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: I used to sort of cringe a little bit, and I just can't get enough of those words right now.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in part that's because I found a new definition for them.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So that's wonderful.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what I hold space for when I think about this idea of spirituality is a sense of trust in being held in something bigger than myself, right?
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like that really deep knowing that there is some method to this madness that science can't even kind of quantify or qualify, and that there's no, sometimes there's no language, and there's we can't sort of prove anything, but it's just a deep knowing, right?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Lisa Miller is a psychologist that you and I have talked about recently, and she's written a great book that I'm just finishing right now called The Awakened Brain, and we can put some um links to some of her work in the show notes.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: But she is a psychologist who's really brought to the mainstream psychology and science realm this idea of how protective spirituality is in um or protects against depression and anxiety and substance abuse, and she differentiates it from religion, which is I think where we can get triggered with that word.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, I think a lot of people do feel that trigger.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is a place that I think is where you and my relationship makes me giggle because this is not a place I've been cringy around.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we often laugh about how would we have been friends in college?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like our biggest joke, right?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: But I think as a therapist, I have been very much into bringing spirituality into my practice, but I have been weary and of who I turn away or who I push away because of that.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: And when I did a lot of work with couples, I actually used to, I still do, but refer to the marriage or the partnership or any long-term relationship as truly an opportunity for spiritual growth and holding and recognition of someone else's path and how that came into your world.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember some people like looking at me and rolling their eyes, and so I say all this because this conversation can be eye roll-y unless we really consciously choose to go into it with curiosity.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And that actually, when we tap into our spiritual parts of ourselves, they are curiosity.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: They like that's like where they live.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And you made a comment so beautifully earlier today that what was it?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, okay, historically we've talked about that curiosity and and and like dysregulation cannot coexist.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that and you said I said that the problem and the solution can't coexist.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and so and I think the antidote for all of that is to be curious.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's right.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I digressed for a minute.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's okay.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's worth for just I love that we're starting with this because I think it's worth for this conversation today to just differentiate as we sit here between religion, religious practice, you know, reading the Bible and going to church or whatever your your discipline, your religious faith is, right?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're differentiating that between just this sense, this sense of well-being, this sense of love, the sense of being connected, interconnectedness, right?
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's actually what Dr.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Miller talks about in her work is that the beauty, what what spirituality brings is a sense of interconnectedness.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I love that.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And most depression and anxiety comes from isolation.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's so good.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_01: I have to say one thing really quickly.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Please.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that is one thing I've been feeling so much is that in motherhood we are so much more alike than we're different.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Say more.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: That I I'll give you an example.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was on the trail the other day with a girlfriend, we were talking about our adolescence, the whole hike.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: We get to the top, we run into another dad in the community who is also parenting adolescents.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: And the first thing he said was, Oh my goodness, my adolescents are kicking my ass.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then he had this really beautiful open share, and then we carried on, and then I got to my car and I ran into another mom.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, I just had this actual moment of inner peace that we are so much more alike than we're different.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and that actually gives me trust of being held really by this greater almost heartbeat of mothers.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: If we're gonna go back to mothering, like the mothering journey, just from the moment you even think about becoming a mother, whatever that looks like, that's when the journey begins.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hallelujah.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I think I think one of the things that I would like to bring forward, maybe you and I could even workshop this a little bit, you know what I mean?
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like literally bring up a topic and move through the expression of feeling into something that feels more hopeful for us.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like maybe we could do it in real time so people know what we do.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we'll pick a real topic so we're being authentic.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I think one of the things that you and I keep talking about over and over is that having a sense of trust, faith, spirituality in motherhood saves us from deep, deep, deep confusion and despair.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And um again, the only reason really I bring up Dr.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Miller's work is because we are now have more and more science that is pointing to that.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right, this is funny because you have just always moved in these waters, right?
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: It is part of your general way of being, and I am really beginning to crack open my need for um evidence.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you love evidence.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: I love evidence.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: I've always and it's interesting.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, as I say this out loud, it's like, you know, talk a lot about almost turning 50 because it feels very meaningful for me.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I think the reason I feel better than I ever have in my whole life is because I'm willing to not know the answer to things and to trust that the answer is there even if I don't know it.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't require evidence the same way.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, I just have to say something about that because I think for a long time evidence served you so much because it it gave you something to trust.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, right?
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And totally you've and that you've named on this podcast before that you struggled with anxiety.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, and I think it was actually whether it was conscious or unconscious, it was an incredible coping skill at the time that you needed something to kind of hold on to, and it gave you it worked for a long time.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: And here you are now, a very different human than even when I met you.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: We both are, yeah.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: But like in regards to this, that your need to have something to hold on to, yeah, tangible is totally changing.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I just want to really, really applaud that because that worked, you took you worked hard to get there.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: And this did not come easy, and I just think that that is such a testament, Kate, of how much you care about you and how much energy you want to put into this life you're living with and doing it differently than maybe your family did, or the the systemic messaging that is in your soul, you know.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: I just I really bow to you because I think it's profound.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's such I thank you for that reflection.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: I feel that too.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not anxious anymore.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I know.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I have moments, who doesn't?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: But I can get back on track really quickly.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: And that is not, I mean, I hugely respect psychotherapy.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: I hugely respect medication when it's warranted.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say what has gotten me to a place of confidence and trust is my sense in something bigger than myself that I'm connected to.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't always have something tangible to speak for, to your point.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we do giggle because I'm always like a little step behind you in this.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, but I think it would- And then you do all the reading.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I do because I like the evidence.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, tell me what you learned.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, tell me what proves the way I've been living in the world.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think what what we get to do for our listeners is to show folks that you can land in this place from any direction.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: I think what you and I both feel so strongly about is that there's nothing that you and I have or that we're capable of that our listeners are not.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: I want to go back to one thing we were saying before about religion.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I was raised in a Jewish upbringing.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember really early on not totally, not connecting with um Hebrew school, not connecting with what felt like some exclusion in some of the Jewish ways that where I was raised.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: But what I loved was singing together.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: What I I loved, like actually, and I still love, when I walk in to a synagogue, and you know, I do an outdoor synagogue now, but like when I'm in a with a group of people and we're singing songs that has been that have been sung forever and ever and ever, I have this deep sense of being held.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so for me, I do identify as a Jewish woman.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: My both my kids are one is about to get bot mitzvah.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's a lot of tradition and ritual that I absolutely adore.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: There's things that I don't totally align with, and Judaism gives you space to have that.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: But the things that feel that I really connect with are this idea of being some part of something bigger than me, part of something that I can't quite sink my teeth into, and this feeling I get when I'm in those situations.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I think sometimes there's parts of religion that can play into this that can get murky.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And that's I wanted to go back to this piece where you're like sometimes that can get confusing and can put people off.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And again, it's like this is everyone's personal journey of what they pick and choose in your adult life to serve you.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so on the heels of that, in in regards to spirituality and to your definition, something outside of yourself that you cannot see or touch or there's so many ways to access this.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna name a few, and I want you to name a few too, and then maybe we'll workshop.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: So there's language around guardians or spiritual guides.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And this is such important language.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I'd love to bring one of my friends, Erica Anderson, onto this podcast at some point because this is her deep work right now around accessing your guides.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And but I think it's actually very easy to access some image of a guide that is that is there, that will always love you, that is always with you.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: This can be someone that passed away, that you can feel their presence near you.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: This can be something that's totally disconnected.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like it could be a like a a saint, you know, it could be Jesus, it could be Saint Michael.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many ways.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I went to a we've both been to the same psychic, and she told me that my spiritual guide was named Una.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I I like when I'm really in the deep dark places of it, I will call on Una and be like, Una, just tell me everything.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so just naming her out loud, I feel this like warmth.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: So that's just one thing that might seem really out there, but it's actually really just it's just something to play with.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it's interesting.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: I'm imagining that more people resonate with that than are willing to acknowledge that they resonate with that.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm only saying I might be projecting, but I know that you know, it's almost you and I say often, and Emily, my our clinical director here and I say often, we were just talking about this today, a very fine line between spirituality and psychosis.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, I say that, we say that humorlessly humorfully, and of course that is a serious topic, but when we say things out loud, they can sound crazy.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: They can.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I mean.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: To it, right?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Old school way of thinking.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, clinical.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: Or even to ourselves.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes when I say out loud things that feel so true to me, I literally sound crazy to myself.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: But when I when I'm holding them in mind, they feel so real and true, right?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: So my spiritual guide, I mean, I I feel like I have many of them, they've sort of blended together, but you know, my mom passed away five years ago, right?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I have no doubt that her spirit is part of me all the time.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you know what's interesting is I don't know if you remember this, but I felt mostly joy after she died.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I remember.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like I felt I I didn't, I mean, I grieved the loss of her, of course, but I didn't go into despair.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in part that's because I really felt her.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: I allowed myself to see her and feel her as an all-being soul, as part of something that I was also part of, right?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I can say that now without like thinking like I sound crazy, but five years ago, saying that out loud made me feel crazy.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: But the truth is that it works and resonates and makes me feel held.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: It and makes you feel better, better and good, exactly.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: So to go back to yeah, to go back to our initi original like title how do we move through suffering.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's like you were grieving, you were at the depth of it.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Really, you lost your mother.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's very disorganizing and it was unexpected.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you leaned in towards trust, yeah, the opening your heart to feeling her.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of I watched you do it over and over of like going towards gratitude and just something that wasn't so narrow and like constricting as grief can feel.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's the shift from fear from going from feeling fear to feeling love, from protectedness and kind of tightness to openness and curiosity and trust.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, right, and I think guides, spiritual guides can do that.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: That was my point.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Nature is a big one for me.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: I actually had um, we were in uh snowmass last weekend, and I was outside and I actually began to feel buzzed.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: My body was like buzzing, and nature's been doing that to me a lot lately.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's that interconnectedness.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I hear the birds, and I'm and there's a part of me that can lean into like, oh, they are made of the same stuff that I'm made of.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that is like energizing.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, exactly.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: So those are two things that can help people.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: One thing I love about nature is there's no drama in nature.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: None things die, nope, things rebirth, plants die.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, it just keeps going in these cycles.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds so obvious, but like these seasonal shifts, and there's no real story attached to it.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's like again, this trust of the process.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: So let's take this back.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let me ask, because you were on you were you were on an important direction there.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: You were trying, I think you were.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Giving suggestions about where people can tap into spirituality.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you said guides, and I said nature.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Anything else on your mind that you want to share?
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I want to I mentioned music, singing.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, singing, the collective, you know, even camaraderie of like being in like I as we've mentioned before, I love live music.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_01: And I was recently at a concert with so many people, and every now and then I would just look around at all the people.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, we are having a shared experience.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's having different experiences, but we are sharing an experience of this concert right now.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Something about that to me feels so big and expansive and powerful.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that stuff happens all the time.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: So people could find a spiritual experience in a baseball game.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just think these are these little invitations of what how you find it for you.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Creativity is what that makes me think of.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: To me, spirituality and creativity are the same thing.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like that flow of information.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: So let's bring it back to motherhood for a minute.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I I mean, I we started today before we went live talking about how, which we've been talking about every week on this podcast, about how painful and heartbreaking motherhood can be.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, you and I get to lean on each other that way and come to each other with the little or big things that happen that break our heart as mothers.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: And we make space for that.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we feel that because I think most people, you and I included, who have some spiritual connection honor that our emotions are important to feel because they help us get back on track of what feels clear and true, or you know, reminds us of where we're off track.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's a better way of saying that.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: But we spend, you know, we spent 15, 20, 25 minutes talking about all the things that felt really hard.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then we fairly quickly got back to that idea of trust.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, Deb, I have actually a great example to use.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if I've brought this up with you recently.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you can you can um you can share whatever thoughts you want, because you always have good thoughts.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_00: So one of my daughters, um, as you know, so interesting how our kids can be so different, right?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like really, really different little beings, right?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my daughters was born very, very feisty, right?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: She cried a lot when she was born.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: She was challenging for um people to soothe, for us to soothe.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: I actually found that when she was a baby, I was just telling her this the other day, it's hilarious.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: She was like rolling her eyes, but the only thing that really worked to get her to quiet was if I held her to my chest like so snugly, close to me, tightly.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: I told her this the other day and she was like, I stopped crying because I couldn't breathe.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, You're a baby, you don't remember.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, but really, right?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like she liked, she was had to be really tightly wound up in her, what's that called?
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Swaddle.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but she would have big feelings a lot of the time.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I really and I, as you know, I'm a lover.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love in general being close and hugging and you know, you know, kind of whatever.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Affectionate, affectionate.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: And she has turned into a um a being who does not like closeness the same way I do, right?
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I only bring up the pla times when she was little because sometimes I'm like, oh my god, did I like scare her away because I held her so tight?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, she came in this way, she did, but she's become this being that really needs space.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I have really struggled with that.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like I soothe and care for people by getting close.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my hardest parts of parenting her was my wanting to get close with her when she's struggling, because that's what I need.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: And when she pushes me away to take it personally and I can spin out and and literally go back to like, oh my God, she liked this because I held her too tight when I was baby, you know, all that stuff that we do.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that, you know, it just happened the other day, right?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: That she was going through something, and what I know best to do when people are having a hard time is to show up for them in the way I know how, which is close and connecting.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that doesn't work for her.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And there have been a lot of moments of total mother and confusion for me.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that time, maybe what we're what I'm just starting with in this little workshop is just naming.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like that is really painful for me when that happens.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I have been able to, over my life as her mom, recognize that it's painful for me because of what I need and want when I'm uncomfortable.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Are you looking at me?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what I actually heard you say is that she is this little being, you mentioned that word being, that came in the on the on this planet with her own karmic story.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that you had to learn as a mom how to separate from her journey and what you know to be true on your journey.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: And what I have watched you do with this beautiful daughter of yours is give her space over and over, remind her that you're here and you're present, and then tend to yourself.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then and and she knows how to tend to herself and she always comes back.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: She always comes back to you.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that what you're naming right now more than anything is that all of our kids come in with their own agenda.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if we're gonna look at parenting as a spiritual journey, it's recognizing that they are on their own their own spiritual journey of learning, and we have to actually let them do that.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: And when we can trust that they are going to be okay because they're on this own their own journey, we can pause and kind of be free and make space for that.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_00: So we're go so I'm gonna go backwards because we just talked about how, you know, I'm about to turn 50 and feel better than I ever have, and I haven't always been 50 and felt better than I ever have.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: And as I think back to the times when she was younger and really struggling, that landing in that place that you're describing where I can land pretty quickly now did not come easily for me.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And there are, I have memories of utter spin outs where she would spinning out, you know, when she was like two, three, four, right?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: She would be spinning out and feeling deep despair, and then I would spin out and feel like deep despair, and I would feel stuck and scared and like, what's wrong with her?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: And is she, is there really something wrong?
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was like looking at it from the perspective of there is a problem, right?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know how to solve the problem, and I'd get all spun out, my fear and her fear would get entangled because I felt like I needed to know what to do.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that place that we said I've released myself from, yeah, where I like need to have the evidence.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: What do I do?
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: What am I supposed to do?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: That mentality would complicate things for me.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And as I got more feisty and scared, guess what she would do?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Get more feisty and scared.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I can remember times in my mothering where I literally would feel panic around it.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't know how to mother her.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you didn't know how to mother her yet.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, right.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: At that in those moments.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: But back to the what was keeping me anxious and stuck was that mentality.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I have learned to do, which you're reminding me right now over time, is to trust that she knows what is best for her.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: And to trust that there is something more divine or large or energetic and energetic holding her and me, and that if we can ride the wave, everything's gonna be just fine.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: And because she's always fine, to your point.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: She's always fine.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: And she just has a different way of emoting and a different way of soothing.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Now, one thing we play a lot, and this is not totally on the spiritual conversation, but we play a lot with this idea of giving space, but not avoiding.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: So giving space for them to go through their process, but making sure we are still the container holder.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, this thing you're saying that I'm really appreciating is the solution mentality that we get stuck in.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that that actually there's a place for problem solving, absolutely, but in a moment of fear, it's it's actually really blurry to problem solve.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what we then need is the moment to separate from our fear.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: So w yeah, I was gonna say one really quick thing.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: One of my kiddos was having a pretty big dilemma recently, and she just needed to process, and I was I went into problem solving, which is I know better, but I got hooked and I got entangled in her emotion, and she looked at me and said, Stop being a detective.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it was actually the best feedback I got, and I was like, Oh my god, you're right, you're right.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: I am that is not helpful, and actually, in that moment, you just giggled.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was able to giggle, it kind of interrupted the process, yeah, it put me back into a place of trust, and I didn't need to problem solve right then and there.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think that's what's so interesting, right?
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_00: When we are in a place of fear and protection, we it's sort of like it feeds on itself, right?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: We get heady, we get tunnel vision, not interconnected.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, the opposite of interconnected.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I would say that in those moments when she was younger, I felt so separate from her.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: I felt the opposite of connected, which just made me more fearful, right?
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: But when is when there is this sense of like okayness, this sense of being held in okayness.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know how, you know, I know this is a Buddhist sort of philosophy or take, but it really works for me, right?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: That the the opposite of fear is confidence, right?
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: When we're in a state of fear, we do not believe everything's gonna be okay.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the moment we can fall back in that like trust that everything is gonna be okay, like I have the confidence that things are gonna be okay, my fear softens.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: You said something else that just reminded me of something very important to say and it slipped my mind, but it'll circle back in a minute.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_02: It will.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that's that to me, that's that it's making space for that more spiritual big picture perspective that softens those moments for me.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's hard to get there on my own, which I think is why it's useful to have a person to talk to.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I know that, you know, while it's so important to me that when I'm really in a place of despair or fear, and I come to you and I say, Oh my gosh, this thing is happening, and I this feels really crappy, and I'm very frustrated that it's super useful when you say, Oh my gosh, of course that's frustrating.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds so frustrating.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_00: But if you and I just got stuck there talking about how frustrating it is, that would not be useful.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, something we also do for each other is, and this is something I know we have learned from a spiritual teacher years ago, is that when we're worried about our kid or kids or anything, we send and visualize light around the person we're worried about.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we do that for each other all the time.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, we validate the fear and then we transition it to what is an energetic visualization we can do so we don't feel powerless.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing something actually, but it's not around language, it's not around solutions, it's around sending a message to the people we love the most in the world that we see them circled in love and light.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that to me is actually one of the most powerful practices because I think that people feel that.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we just feel that, just like if you walk into a room and someone's been talking shit about you, you can feel that.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, and so we have to remember that we're just as powerful with the positive and sending that kind of help holding energy.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that you often do for me, which is so helpful, is we will be talking about something I'm struggling with with a kiddo, and you will say after we make room for all the shit, because that really feels good to get the shit out, is you will say, I just want to remind you of something.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_00: I like and hear, I feel like I'm channeling you.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: You will say, I just want to remind you of something.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: She has always been okay, right?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Or you'll say, I just want to remind you of something.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: That kid has been in a hard place before and will get out of it again, right?
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_00: There's that, there's that invitation of the biggerness than the situation.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: That invitation to see that something is more than it is in that moment that I think is so important to release us as moms from the things that are keeping us stuck, right?
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_00: Rather than swimming in the stuckness, we sometimes need someone outside of us to say, I want to remind you of the bigger picture.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: I want to remind you of the more, the, the more endless, all okayness part of this thing that's happening.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's spirituality.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: That's the invitation of spirituality.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_01: That is it.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: And what when you're speaking, I'm just seeing like expansiveness.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's expansive in our perspective.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: And it feels good, and it's expansive in nature, yeah.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it's expansive when we just like are sitting on a cushion and imagine ourselves like our energy field getting larger and taking up space in the room.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I kind of think that that is one of the huge antidotes of what you just said.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's these reminders of something bigger.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: And again, this is nothing new, but it's like one thing I love about you is we have these conversations all the time, and I feel like when I listen to you, I hear it differently.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's like something I've maybe studied or read or experienced, but when I get to riff off you with it, I just keep hearing it, which is an a differently, which is another reminder that the spiritual journey is non-linear.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's nonlinear.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just like we're we're just we have permission to keep exploring and keep seeing where we're going.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I do have the sense that the spiritual does not live in our mind.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's ego.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what we could remind our listeners of in this moment, we've talked about this in podcasts before, is that the quickest way to tap into this idea we're talking about is by going inside, right?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Is by really quick recognizing the ego and the thoughts, but really to go inside, right?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what am I feeling right now?
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if I think about, if I go back and think about the moments where my daughter, this daughter we've been talking about, has been struggling and crying and showing pain, and then I feel her pain, and you were to say, what's in your body, I would say tight, heavy, hot, we are not meant to feel tight and heavy and hot.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_00: That is not what we are meant to feel as humans.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: As humans, as spiritual humans, right?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: We're meant to feel light and spacious and connected.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so the question that I would, you would probably ask me back then, and I would ask myself now is what is a thought I could have right now that would lead me to feeling light and spacious and good.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: And the thought is probably something like she's gonna be okay.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: That she knows what's best for her.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: And she's equipped, and she's equipped.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: All of those larger, more kind of, you know, bigger picture, untangible things are what lead me to that feeling.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: And our thoughts impact how we feel.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the curiosity, it's the knowing, it's the following, being willing to not know.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, it's the deep wisdom of knowing, but also the willingness to not know in that moment about the quote unquote right thing to do.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder if we're confusing our listeners.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it is confusing at times.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is not the topic that actually, like, I almost think when we trip over our words around it, that's it.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's because this this journey, this practice, is not conceptualized.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like to your point, it's an experience, it's moment to moment, it's always changing.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like being willing to kind of let go of that thinking mind to really feel something outside of yourself.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess I will say that I've also learned how to slow down as I've gotten older.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that we can tap if we can really tap into this deeper knowing that we're now calling spirituality and motherhood when we're busy all the time.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I think a lot of people don't like the idea or the feeling of slowing down because it it can feel bad, right?
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_00: There's so many thoughts in our heads, and then our we feel anxious or it's so uncomfortable.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, I think that's the portal to slowing down.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, to feeling uh having access to these things that we're describing are really the way to get out of those stuck points in motherhood is a willingness to slow down, you know?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's hard.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: It is, it is.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: This conversation's making me want to go sit by the river, put my feet in, and just breathe.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna summarize a couple things for us.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: As with every podcast, I'm gonna summarize the obvious, which is motherhood can feel very, very complicated and hard and heavy, right?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's along with the full love, it can be heartbreaking.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that it is really important and appropriate to be able to feel those feelings and name them and talk to someone about them because we have to actually go there before we can go to a higher, more light, more comfortable place.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: The way to that place, I want to summarize based on what I've you I've heard you use this word like 42 times today, is being curious, to wonder, to be curious and to be willing to not know a tangible answer in that moment, right?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: And to fall back into some sort of trust and knowing that like deeper faith in something that is bigger than ourselves, whether it's a guide or nature or just a deep knowing, you know, that deepest part of ourselves that has always been okay.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: And all the other times we felt stuck, yeah.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: We've been okay there then.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: Finding a way to tap into that is super helpful.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because if we're still here, we're okay.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: We've always been okay.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: And we will always be okay, right?
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so so to slow down and remind ourselves that that's a spiritual concept.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because what's the part of us that's always okay?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: You were talking about it earlier in our podcast.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's the the Buddhists would say it's the witness, the observer.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_01: The IFS would call it the self.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's self.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, the part that's always there.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's the essence of you.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's the witness that's always watching.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not tangible.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not the mother or the wife or the blonde-haired, tall Kate, or the beautiful, curly-haired, bouncy Deb, right?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not that, right?
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's the it's all the stuff inside.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and then I think once we can tap into that and feel that, there's a lightness that comes with that.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lack of drama, yeah, that we said, a lack of conf there's a deep knowing.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: And when we can access that for ourselves, we can access it for our kids.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: We can trust that our kids have it.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: And that for me is such a savior for me.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_00: When my kids are struggling, is to be able to like fall into that, okay, okay, this is does not have to be a problem.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's something bigger at work here.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: And she will be okay.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: They will be okay.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: So good.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Kate.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Deb.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if this podcast touched you or made you think or made you question, please, please comment.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: We're so curious.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: We want to hear what you have to say.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: We really, really want to start to create a community where everyone's voice is welcome and we want to learn from you.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: So please join us in that.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: Love you, Deb.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: Love you, Kate.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.