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Angel Millar- Supernatural Woman and the Male Initiate: Bonded through Dreams · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What I.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: Welcome back to the occult Rejects. Today we are joined
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  Speaker 3: by Angel Miller, an author, esoteric researcher, lecturer, hypnotist, martial artist,
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  Speaker 3: and longtime practitioner of the initiatic path. Angel has written
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  Speaker 3: extensively on freemasonry, masculinity, symbolism, mysticism, self transformation, and the
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  Speaker 3: deeper architecture of initiation. His work has always, has always
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  Speaker 3: moved in that difficult territory between tradition and transformation, between
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  Speaker 3: the old initiatic systems and the modern human being trying
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  Speaker 3: to recover meaning, discipline, spiritual force, and contact with something
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  Speaker 3: beyond on the flat material world. Today we are getting
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  Speaker 3: into his new book, Supernatural Woman and the Male Initiate
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  Speaker 3: Bonded through Dreams. This is a book about one of
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  Speaker 3: the most strange, powerful and misunderstood figures in religious and
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  Speaker 3: esoteric history. The supernatural woman, the muse, the valkyrie, the sorceress,
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  Speaker 3: the dream visitor, the erotic initiatrix, the divine feminine presence
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  Speaker 3: who appears not as decoration, not as passive symbol, but
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  Speaker 3: as a force that tests, transforms, inspires, wounds, awakens and initiates.
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  Speaker 3: Angel traces this figure through ancient Greek and Sorestrian traditions,
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  Speaker 3: the edis Icelandic sagas, Chaucer, wicker, freemasonry, young fraud, art,
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  Speaker 3: sexual symbolism, mystical ecstasy, and the visionary lives of figures
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  Speaker 3: like Saint Teresa, Marjorie Kemp, Alistair Crowley, and Lady FRIEDA Harris.
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  Speaker 3: This is exactly this is exactly the kind of conversation
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  Speaker 3: we like to have here, where myth, psychology, ritual, sex, dames, initiation,
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  Speaker 3: and the occult all collide. Is the supernatural woman an archetype?
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  Speaker 3: Is she a spirit? Is she the anima? Is she
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  Speaker 3: a test? Is she a doorway? Is she dangerous? Is
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  Speaker 3: she necessary? And what does it mean when the male
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  Speaker 3: initiate is not transformed by domination, conquest or force, but
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  Speaker 3: by encounter with a feminine intelligence that comes through dreams, desire, poetry, terror,
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  Speaker 3: ecstasy and revelation. And now, before we get to the
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  Speaker 3: guest himself, let me introduce the other rejects. Judith the
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  Speaker 3: Lon what is going on? Oh, maybe she's not ready.
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  Speaker 3: We'll start with jen Jen What is going on? Sir?
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  Speaker 3: How wire you?
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  Speaker 1: What is up, Cardinal mister ninety three. I'm pretty good.
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  Speaker 1: I'm excited for this. I'm a so angel doesn't probably
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  Speaker 1: know who I am, but I'm a contrack Buddhist so
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  Speaker 1: vaudrianas so the scarlet woman or Tikini or Vaudriogini. This
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  Speaker 1: is a very frequent figure that I've discussed on this
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  Speaker 1: show for the last three years. This is why I
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  Speaker 1: started podcasting, because I had to see of Tikini experiences,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: which I like, into the Tree of Life. I compared
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: it to the Maha Vida, the grouping of ten new
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  Speaker 1: Worri goddesses from Nepal. So I'm it's a discussion every
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  Speaker 1: time we have about Kabbala or about Tntra who she
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  Speaker 1: is and like what is her nature and what is
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  Speaker 1: her name? So I don't know how much I'll be
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  Speaker 1: able to add to this because I'm not as familiar
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  Speaker 1: with the Western estoturs perspective, but I will be here
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  Speaker 1: to listen and learn. So if people want to check
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  Speaker 1: me out, they can check me out on substack at
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  Speaker 1: Threshold Saints dot substack dot com, on x and ig
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  Speaker 1: at Threshold Saints, as well as our YouTube channel, which
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  Speaker 1: is undergoing renovation. But it is active and we just
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  Speaker 1: did a live on Friday so YouTube dot com slash
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  Speaker 1: at the True tr Ve Gray Lodge dot com. So
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  Speaker 1: we talked about metamagic speculative Cabala, speculative Cali chakra, and
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  Speaker 1: speculative narscissism. So that's what you get every Friday. It's
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  Speaker 1: kind of like a gonzo gnostic radio kind of thing.
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  Speaker 1: So yeah, you can check us all out there, and
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  Speaker 1: of course let me shout out arros Up who just
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  Speaker 1: interviewed another Lodge member on her channel, Joshua the Branch.
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  Speaker 1: She's been on the show many times and he's interviewed.
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  Speaker 1: She's also interviewed me as well as Solar Exile, who's
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  Speaker 1: also part of the Great Lodge and also fou on
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  Speaker 1: the show. So thank you guys so much. Appreciate it.
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  Speaker 1: Judith and Brandon and of course Nick and Angel great
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  Speaker 1: to me. Thank you so much.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you Jin for joining us. I really appreciate it.
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  Speaker 3: I'm really glad you here. Hey my boy Brandon Maggus
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  Speaker 3: in the media. What is going on game? So hell
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  Speaker 3: will you?
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  Speaker 2: I'm great. What a great morning to start us off with.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you for always having me.
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  Speaker 4: Nick. Love being here at all.
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  Speaker 2: Times, Jin, my boy and my man. I'm so happy
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  Speaker 2: that we can be on a stream together. Love it
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  Speaker 2: as always. Everyone should go check out Jin and I's
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: five part episode on Battle Cry. We crush all things
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  Speaker 2: O cult, Western, Esoteric, Eastern mysticism. We really just bring
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: the fire to the space, and I think it's really
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: important everyone out there that they don't know hit over
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: to megas and the media on YouTube, subscribe, like and share,
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: hit all the things Instagram x TikTok. We dislike TikTok,
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: but we're there anyway. One of those things that I'm
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: really excited for is that I've read Angel's books. Two
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  Speaker 2: of them that really helped move me were The Path
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: of the Warrior Mystic in the Three Stages of Initiatic Spirituality,
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  Speaker 2: fantastic books. I myself can really relate due to being
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  Speaker 2: a practitioner of the Western Esoteric tradition as well as
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  Speaker 2: almost twenty years now deeply ingrained into my martial arts practice.
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  Speaker 2: And so when we're hitting on all those things, trying
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  Speaker 2: to be the best warrior mystics we can Angel, So
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  Speaker 2: I'm just really excited for this conversation. Yeah, we're just
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  Speaker 2: dropping knowledge all the time. I've got all kinds of
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  Speaker 2: interviews coming out, so just everyone just go check out
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  Speaker 2: magas in the media. We're here to bring back myth
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  Speaker 2: magic and meaning, thank you Nick.
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  Speaker 4: For the day.
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  Speaker 3: No, of course, thank you and like you were saying,
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I'll be honest, Angel, I haven't read any
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  Speaker 3: of your books before, but I remember seeing your name
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  Speaker 3: when I first got into this stuff. So when I
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  Speaker 3: was sent an email saying that you know, would you
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: be interested in so and so, I was like, oh,
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  Speaker 3: holy shit, I was like, I remember this name from
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  Speaker 3: when I got into this, so this is really cool
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  Speaker 3: for me. Also, I really appreciate it. And Judith the Loon,
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  Speaker 3: she is back. What is going on? How are you?
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  Speaker 3: Can you let everybody know what's up with you and
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: all your amazing stuff.
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  Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. I apologize for having to
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  Speaker 5: dash out there for a quick moment. Angel I look
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  Speaker 5: forward to your discussion today. Like Nick and Maga says,
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  Speaker 5: I am familiar with your name. You're liking an icon
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  Speaker 5: in a way. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So I was like, oh, thank.
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  Speaker 5: You, Brandon, Jen It's always a pleasure to see you
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  Speaker 5: and everyone. You can find me at YouTube speaker and
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  Speaker 5: on x I'm sorry as the loon.
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  Speaker 3: Don't thank you very much and I'm glad you made it.
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  Speaker 3: Judith should be another fun one. And finally, Angel sir,
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  Speaker 3: if you want to let anybody let people know anything
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  Speaker 3: I might have left out and want to promote anything,
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  Speaker 3: please let everybody know where they can find all your
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  Speaker 3: amazing books and anything else you got going on.
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  Speaker 6: Well, all of the books are on Amazon dot Com
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  Speaker 6: and Buns and Noble and all that kind of thing. Actually,
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  Speaker 6: the Supernatural Woman book is available for pre order at
• 7:20
  Speaker 6: the moment. It will be out in three weeks.
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  Speaker 4: But yeah, so yeah.
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  Speaker 6: I've written seven books. The first three were histories of Freemasonry,
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  Speaker 6: also one on the history of Freemasonry and the occult,
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  Speaker 6: and then the last four within ther traditions have been
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  Speaker 6: much more on my own kind of reflections on the
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  Speaker 6: occult world and initiation, but really diving into a lot
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  Speaker 6: of I think lesser known areas awesome.
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  Speaker 3: I'm noticing that painting you have behind you. Did you
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  Speaker 3: make that yourself?
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  Speaker 4: I did.
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  Speaker 6: I painted that around probably around two thousand and four,
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  Speaker 6: somewhere around there. I'd have to think a little bit more,
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  Speaker 6: but somewhere around two thousand and.
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  Speaker 4: Four I think nice and five.
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  Speaker 3: Maybe it just got my attention.
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  Speaker 6: It's based on a Masonic tracing board, which are which
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  Speaker 6: are paintings that are shown during what that were shown
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  Speaker 6: traditionally during Masonic ritual to show all of the different
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  Speaker 6: symbols of each degree.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. I was going to ask real quick and uh,
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  Speaker 3: you know, I wasn't trying to do it to put
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  Speaker 3: any pressure on you, but are you are you because
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  Speaker 3: of the Freemasonry stuff? And then I was like, you know,
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  Speaker 3: I'm going to ask him if he's a member of
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  Speaker 3: you know, Freemasons, And then I saw that behind you
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  Speaker 3: and I'm like, oh, it probably is, But are you
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  Speaker 3: you a member of the Freemasons and stuff? Yeah, I am.
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  Speaker 6: I mean I joined in October two thousand and one
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  Speaker 6: in New York City and yeah, and so I've been
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  Speaker 6: a member for over twenty five or twenty five years now.
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  Speaker 6: But yeah, I don't attend launch that often just because
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  Speaker 6: my routine tends to be waking.
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  Speaker 4: Up really really early in the morning.
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  Speaker 6: But it's still involved in other ways that I give
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  Speaker 6: talks and Masonic lodges and uh. And I'm the editor
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  Speaker 6: in chief of a Fraternal Review, which is a Masonic
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  Speaker 6: magazine but we do a lot of interesting things. I
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  Speaker 6: just I just created an issue on Freemasonry and Haiti
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  Speaker 6: and I interviewed a Voodoo priest for that, looking at
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  Speaker 6: the influence of Freemasonry on voodoo, which I didn't I
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  Speaker 6: knew nothing about. So you know, we go where other
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  Speaker 6: Masonic magazines.
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  Speaker 4: Dare to dread.
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  Speaker 3: That was pretty cool.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: When I when you had all those books on freemasonry,
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  Speaker 3: I was like, well, I would assume he might be
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  Speaker 3: a Freemason if he's got that much to say about it.
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  Speaker 3: I was just taking a guess, so I was.
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  Speaker 6: Like, yeah, they're all history, so I don't really give
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  Speaker 6: any opinion or anything, but I do. I do think
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  Speaker 6: for the time, it went into a lot of areas
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  Speaker 6: that weren't explored, and maybe even a.
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  Speaker 3: Well known now and I know, like you know obviously
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  Speaker 3: know who Crawelly is. Have you ever went to any
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  Speaker 3: Oto lodges when you were in New York?
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  Speaker 4: I haven't.
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  Speaker 3: Sorry, Okay, Now, I was just one. I used to
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  Speaker 3: be a member of to Whodi Lodge, So I was
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  Speaker 3: just one of a cross paths.
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  Speaker 6: One of my one of my friends, one of my
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  Speaker 6: closest friends here used to be a member of to
• 10:12
  Speaker 6: who do you lodge action?
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  Speaker 7: Oh I'm sorry, Yeah, yeah, yeah, sounds like there's some
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  Speaker 7: issues issues in the OT world right now.
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  Speaker 6: So that's what I see. Yeah, that's what I hear
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  Speaker 6: from YouTube.
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  Speaker 4: From the YouTube exactly.
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  Speaker 3: I've been hearing that since I was a members. So
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  Speaker 3: it's like, is there anything changed? All right? I guess
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: real quick before we start getting into it, and I
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: asked everybody this, you know, this question basically, what was
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  Speaker 3: it that got you to you know, that brought you
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  Speaker 3: to the cult? Yeah.
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  Speaker 6: I've actually mentioned it before a few times, but basically,
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  Speaker 6: when I was fifteen, I picked up a book on
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  Speaker 6: astro projection and the elements just from a local book
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  Speaker 6: store actually, and obviously I didn't understand what of it,
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  Speaker 6: but you know, I did try it, and then about
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  Speaker 6: a year later I did get ahold of a book
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  Speaker 6: when I was sixteen on pagan rituals and which is
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  Speaker 6: I didn't realize until recently. I was by Hermon Slader
• 11:12
  Speaker 6: of the Magical Child bookshop in New York. I didn't
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  Speaker 6: know that at the time. And then when I was seventeen,
• 11:20
  Speaker 6: friends took me to what they called a hippie shop
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  Speaker 6: and it turned out really to be a sort of
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  Speaker 6: neopagan occult shop. I just all a lot of hippie
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  Speaker 6: stuff like Ti diye clothing and boxes with you know,
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  Speaker 6: brass moons on them and stuff like that. But that's
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  Speaker 6: when I really really started to get involved in it
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  Speaker 6: in a serious way. And then when I was seventeen
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  Speaker 6: at that point and I found it the atmosphere, I
• 11:46
  Speaker 6: have to say, was quite toxic and unhealthy.
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  Speaker 4: But although you know, beautiful.
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  Speaker 6: In another of sense that you know, they sort of
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  Speaker 6: you know, it was impressed upon me that the world
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  Speaker 6: is more than shopping malls and nine to five and
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  Speaker 6: this kind of stuff often, that there's something intrinsically magical
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  Speaker 6: about the natural.
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  Speaker 4: World, which I think was very healthy for that age.
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  Speaker 6: But then when I was nineteen, I was initiated into
• 12:09
  Speaker 6: the illuminus of the Nastros by Peter Carroll, who has
• 12:13
  Speaker 6: just passed away. So yeah, it's just been colorful.
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  Speaker 3: Some lineage there that's impressive.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, I'm writing about that at the moment actually,
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  Speaker 6: but we'll see where it goes.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Nice.
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  Speaker 2: How do you think that your experience with that group
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  Speaker 2: and Peter Carroll himself like changed your whole magical Outlook.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a good question, and I think I think
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  Speaker 6: the answer to that doesn't come for decades actually, but
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  Speaker 6: now I can probably answer it. But you know, just
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  Speaker 6: to say, at the time, the neopagan group was very
• 12:54
  Speaker 6: controlling and dogmatic and actually not very pagan. It was
• 12:57
  Speaker 6: more of a you know, they wouldn't have acknowledge that,
• 13:01
  Speaker 6: but in a way it was much more of a
• 13:02
  Speaker 6: sort of Freudian interpretation of paganism and not very authentic.
• 13:06
  Speaker 6: But you know, the IoT when I joined, I joined
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  Speaker 6: in London in the Temple Misanthropy, which was the only
• 13:13
  Speaker 6: London temple at the time. Later one was another one
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  Speaker 6: was established apparently, but but yeah, it was incredibly intense.
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  Speaker 6: It was during the quote unquote is Magic War, during
• 13:25
  Speaker 6: the Gulf War, which which I think we were much
• 13:28
  Speaker 6: more let's say, magically linked to than the Ice War
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  Speaker 6: in some respects and some things that haven't been said
• 13:34
  Speaker 6: that I'm going to say eventually. But but yeah, so
• 13:40
  Speaker 6: it was an incredibly tense time and just in the
• 13:43
  Speaker 6: country in general, it was an incredibly paranoid time. We were,
• 13:46
  Speaker 6: you know, we were in the war in the Middle East.
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  Speaker 6: There was the Satanic panic going on, so it felt
• 13:52
  Speaker 6: like it was sort of under siege, and I think
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  Speaker 6: that was very much reflected in the in the attitudes,
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  Speaker 6: and that the magic of temple misanthropy, which was really,
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  Speaker 6: I think, very dark, to be honest. But I left
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  Speaker 6: a year later, and I perhaps I should say it
• 14:11
  Speaker 6: was a bit of a trigger warning that I left
• 14:13
  Speaker 6: because I woke up one day well, the backtrack slightly.
• 14:16
  Speaker 6: It was in the summer and I woke up in
• 14:18
  Speaker 6: the middle of the night one night I could hardly breathe,
• 14:20
  Speaker 6: and I felt like something was blocking my lungs.
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: And then and then I was okay.
• 14:24
  Speaker 6: Like a minute later obviously, or it'd be dead. But
• 14:27
  Speaker 6: and then not the next morning, but the morning after that,
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  Speaker 6: it woke up and it was like blood came out
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  Speaker 6: of my mouth and I spell this blood into the sink.
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  Speaker 6: And at that point I was like, I'm I'm quitting
• 14:38
  Speaker 6: the IoT and quitting everything. And I changed my life entirely,
• 14:42
  Speaker 6: and basically a year later, I was like a different person.
• 14:44
  Speaker 6: I had every long hair and shaved it off and
• 14:47
  Speaker 6: went to our college and changed changed my life in
• 14:51
  Speaker 6: really radical way.
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: It's blood, well, you know, I think in.
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  Speaker 6: How it kind of shaped me magically. I think, you
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  Speaker 6: know some I think interesting happened about probably that two
• 15:03
  Speaker 6: years ago. Now i'd have to look at the date,
• 15:05
  Speaker 6: but after i'd well, actually must be listening to maybe
• 15:09
  Speaker 6: a year ago. After I had finished the Supernatural Woman book,
• 15:14
  Speaker 6: I started writing a book on chaos magic, which is
• 15:18
  Speaker 6: now it's sort of a it's this narrative of different
• 15:20
  Speaker 6: things I've gone through book with that in it. And
• 15:23
  Speaker 6: I picked up Dave Lee's Primordial Chaos on chaos Magic.
• 15:30
  Speaker 6: He's been in the iotator for about forty years, I think,
• 15:33
  Speaker 6: And in there it mentioned that there was a book
• 15:37
  Speaker 6: by Ingrid Fisher on hamming Yard, and I thought that
• 15:40
  Speaker 6: sounds like the book I've just written. And I knew
• 15:42
  Speaker 6: her from the Temple thirty five years ago, and I thought,
• 15:46
  Speaker 6: I have to read this book. And it said that
• 15:49
  Speaker 6: it would be available I think in like two thousand
• 15:51
  Speaker 6: and twenty four or twenty three or whenever. It wasn't it,
• 15:54
  Speaker 6: And I looked for it and I couldn't find it anyway,
• 15:56
  Speaker 6: even though it should have been out. And then literally
• 15:58
  Speaker 6: three weeks later the publisher contact me and say, can
• 16:01
  Speaker 6: you read this book and give it a give to
• 16:03
  Speaker 6: give a blurb for it, and it was that book
• 16:05
  Speaker 6: that I was looking for, And there are definite links
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  Speaker 6: to the book that I've written as well, though it's
• 16:11
  Speaker 6: a very different perspective. Hers is a much more union
• 16:14
  Speaker 6: perspective on it. But it's kind of crazy that thirty
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  Speaker 6: five years later this book should show up exactly as
• 16:20
  Speaker 6: I'm looking. Well, actually I had given up looking for
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: it at that point, I had been looking for it,
• 16:25
  Speaker 6: and I think, you know, reading her book, I think
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  Speaker 6: if I was to ask her, you know, why would
• 16:30
  Speaker 6: that happen? And considering we hadn't been in contact for decades,
• 16:34
  Speaker 6: I think she would say that, you know, it was
• 16:36
  Speaker 6: such a weird and intense time, that there was some
• 16:38
  Speaker 6: sort of hamming up in the group, which is a
• 16:40
  Speaker 6: kind of luck that can be transmitted to different people.
• 16:44
  Speaker 6: But it certainly seemed like or felt like a magical
• 16:47
  Speaker 6: thing for sure. But yeah, I've sort of reassessed my
• 16:50
  Speaker 6: views of the IoT over the years, which was, you know,
• 16:53
  Speaker 6: as I say, dark and intense, and in some way
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  Speaker 6: it's very very negative, but also in another respect, you know,
• 16:59
  Speaker 6: it's a very of a positive thing. And ultimately I
• 17:02
  Speaker 6: think I was just too young to appreciate it all
• 17:06
  Speaker 6: at the time I was nineteen, so you know, but
• 17:09
  Speaker 6: on the other hand, maybe that's a good thing.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: I have a Oh sorry, Brandon, I have a quick
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: follow up for Angel. Do you consider, maybe in perspective,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: like historical perspective now, as you were saying that your
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: early initiations into chaos magic allowed you to undergo radical
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: personal transformation as you described going to cutting your hair,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: going to our college, because though you know, it teaches
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: us to be very flexible as a system. Right, So
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: I just wonder, like, on your perspective, do you think
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: that perhaps maybe as what Brannan was saying as a
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: transformational magical experience, but maybe that is what it is.
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: It's the flexibility of the system, the ability to change
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: not only the parameters of your will or whatever, but
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: also yourself.
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 17:57
  Speaker 6: Well, I have to say that my recollection is there
• 18:00
  Speaker 6: was it was in a sense, Temple misanthropy was a
• 18:04
  Speaker 6: lot less chaos magic y than you might imagine in
• 18:06
  Speaker 6: the you know, most of the time we weren't doing
• 18:10
  Speaker 6: these sort of postmodern rituals. You know, Ian Reid, who
• 18:13
  Speaker 6: was the temple Master, was basically devoted to Northern European mysteries,
• 18:19
  Speaker 6: and you know, I remember someone else did a well
• 18:22
  Speaker 6: in grimoire invocation that leave it that, so you know,
• 18:26
  Speaker 6: it was it wasn't this wacky postmodernism where we're all
• 18:31
  Speaker 6: playing with paradigms all the time, though that's what you
• 18:34
  Speaker 6: tend to think of chaos magic.
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean.
• 18:38
  Speaker 6: As a as a catalyst, it definitely, yeah, was what
• 18:41
  Speaker 6: facilitated this radical transformation. But you know that's also because
• 18:46
  Speaker 6: I was staring my mortality in the face very dramatically,
• 18:50
  Speaker 6: and things that really had to change.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: I think, I do think it's interesting you brought up
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: the idea of chaos magic with postmodernity or post modern
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: ways of magic, simply because the way I approach it,
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: I very much tie it to the tontric conception of things,
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Like you give all tontric cosmology changes with the text,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: so you have to have like a degree of flexibility,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: but you're still you're still within the same ontological If
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: you practice Buddhist arma, then you're still within the same
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: ontological view of things, So you're sore, your great greater
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: perspective remains the same, but maybe you're like day to
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: day or textual hermoneutic changes. So that I just want
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: to clarify that that. I agree that there is a
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: problem probably with doing postmodern and marpage where you're you know,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: invoking every Abystle God possible. That's probably not that useful.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: But I do think that there's a kind of flexibility
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: where you can change cosmologies. That is, if you're within
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: the same I would call it being within the same mandola.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: So you're you're maybe invoking parallel entities. Are they real
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: or not real? Well, that's a question, but no. I
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: so I appreciate that. Thank you, Angel.
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: Did anybody have any any questions?
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, My last thing just about that before we move on,
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: is do you think like, were you already going through
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: initiations and learning from them and doing the thing, and
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: do you feel like some kind of aggre attached and
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: then that was like a thing that you had to
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: that your body was reacting to, and then you just
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: had to completely like the whole like body physiological psychological
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: change had to happen to help detach from that kind
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: of Egregor.
• 20:29
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I think that would be one interpretation,
• 20:31
  Speaker 6: and I think you could say yes to that. I
• 20:34
  Speaker 6: think it's part a part of the you know, aggor
• 20:36
  Speaker 6: quote unquote, I would say that I think we all
• 20:39
  Speaker 6: lived a very transient life for that year that I
• 20:42
  Speaker 6: was a member. Most of us did anyway, I mean
• 20:44
  Speaker 6: I was, I lived in I moved from one apartment
• 20:48
  Speaker 6: to the next to the next. I lived in three
• 20:49
  Speaker 6: apartments during that time in London. And you know my
• 20:54
  Speaker 6: closest friend Nick he you know, he moved out from
• 20:59
  Speaker 6: his girlfriend and who was beautiful, and there was living
• 21:02
  Speaker 6: above a I think above a kebab shop or sleeping
• 21:04
  Speaker 6: on the floor. And then you know, Nick, Ian Reid
• 21:10
  Speaker 6: and Ingrid moved to Germany for three months, lost lost
• 21:14
  Speaker 6: the apartment they were living in, and then returns. So
• 21:17
  Speaker 6: it was this weird thing of really transient at the
• 21:19
  Speaker 6: same time, you know, very intense something emotionally and psychologically
• 21:25
  Speaker 6: and you know me personally doing doing magic and art
• 21:29
  Speaker 6: all the time, you know, So it was and you
• 21:33
  Speaker 6: know I work, to be honest with you, I work
• 21:35
  Speaker 6: all the time. But you know, even now, but that
• 21:38
  Speaker 6: was really too intense. It was a demanding agricole.
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you mentioned before a little bit something. It's just
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: something I wanted to ask your opinion when you mentioned
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: it earlier about satanic panic. Do you see that coming
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: back around again and.
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: There is a little bit of that.
• 22:02
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, definitely, And you know, I would I would say,
• 22:08
  Speaker 6: you know, there's always a danger of you know, blindly
• 22:13
  Speaker 6: supporting what appears to be our own side. And you know,
• 22:16
  Speaker 6: I think that a lot of occult imagery gets misused
• 22:20
  Speaker 6: by people that just want to upset Christians because then
• 22:23
  Speaker 6: they will get in the media, and then that will
• 22:26
  Speaker 6: get them pressed and they'll sell more records.
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: And I find I find it all very cynical really.
• 22:31
  Speaker 6: But and you know, the people that are going that's
• 22:34
  Speaker 6: going to effect are not going to be these pop
• 22:36
  Speaker 6: stars breaking in the cash. It's going to be you know,
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: some you know kid who's into wicker or something like
• 22:42
  Speaker 6: that in the middle of nowhere.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 22:45
  Speaker 6: So yeah, I mean it definitely is stirring. I've definitely
• 22:49
  Speaker 6: seen that. But but yeah, there's a lot of us
• 22:52
  Speaker 6: sort of misuse of this symbolism as well.
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: I think, you.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: Know, I never thought of that angle, but I mean
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: that that does happen. You're like, really, yeah, that really
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: good point.
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: People just yeah throw this stuff around or they'll even
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: like you have to do it to control people or
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: about Yeah.
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, even this sort of satanic imagery.
• 23:12
  Speaker 6: I mean, I'm not very up on pop music, but
• 23:14
  Speaker 6: you know, I've seen, you know, some pop singers using
• 23:17
  Speaker 6: dressing as the devil, and it's you know, it's to me, yeah,
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: obviously Christians are going to react to that, But to me,
• 23:23
  Speaker 6: I also look at it and think it's a bit
• 23:26
  Speaker 6: pathetic to be doing that in an age when really
• 23:28
  Speaker 6: there's no Yeah, there's no sort of downside for you. You're
• 23:33
  Speaker 6: not going to lose your livelihood or anything. There's no
• 23:36
  Speaker 6: risk at all. I mean, if you were doing it
• 23:38
  Speaker 6: in the nineteen seventies, you're okay, cool, maybe maybe you're
• 23:41
  Speaker 6: taking a risk. But now I think it's just people
• 23:44
  Speaker 6: do it because there is no risk to them, but
• 23:46
  Speaker 6: they feel that they're looking edgy and they're not. They
• 23:49
  Speaker 6: just look silly in my view.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: And it's almost like this whole cultural or thing that
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: like they're like their publicists are telling them to dress
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: this way and to act this way, and then you
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: get the dialectic or all of a sudden, you get
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: the evangelical conservative religious who are then completely battling against
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: that and and so, and the only harm is the
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: people in the middle.
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: It seems, yeah, that's right, Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: Nice, That's how it's intends to happen. It's like, well,
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: like you'll get like, you know, some Christians or conspiracy
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: theorist it's like they point at a like at the
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: dead people you know that really can't like even stand
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: up or even say anything back, and then that trickles
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: down kind of to us who like follow some of
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: those teachings. You know, I'm kind of getting that, like,
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: you know, Crowley will get a bad rap, and then
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: since I'm Athella might then obviously now my connection makes
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: me a fucking, you know, crazy person.
• 24:47
  Speaker 6: I mean, I know what about these conspiracy theories, but
• 24:51
  Speaker 6: but yeah, once you'd always take into consideration people on
• 24:54
  Speaker 6: offside saying stupid things as well and giving them ammunition,
• 24:58
  Speaker 6: because I see that a law, especially in some people
• 25:01
  Speaker 6: in freemasonry making all these wild claims and think, oh
• 25:03
  Speaker 6: my goodness, you know they're completely historically false, and yeah,
• 25:07
  Speaker 6: they're feeding these conspiracy theories with their crazy talk, and
• 25:13
  Speaker 6: we let them off because we think that they're not guys,
• 25:15
  Speaker 6: you know that they're not.
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: It's so true.
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: I feel like it's almost like I feel like we
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: have to bring back the sword of reason in a
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: flaming manner to be able to cut away all the nonsense.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: I've been feeling that extra, especially because Jen and I
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: we're doing some live streams where like we're really trying
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: to you see how convoluted the occult Western esoteric podcasting
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: YouTube kind of scene is. And it seems like there's
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: just so much craziness out there, no matter the institutionalized
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: lodges to the solo practitioneers, and it's kind and that's
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: for me, and I'm only speaking for me. That's one
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: of my issues with the post modern occult scene is
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: that it's like the allegiance is too the like trying
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: to sell something instead of trying to be the best
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: individual that you can become, and then doing so you
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: radiate a kind of magnetism that then others want to
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: try to make themselves become the best individual that they
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: can become.
• 26:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's yeah, uh yeah. I've seen it get in
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: a little uh crazy lately too. I've seen some conspiracy
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: podcasts is like literally calling for the killing of non
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: Christians and I'm.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Like, holy fuck Jesus.
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: I was like, what the fuck is wrong with you?
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: And it's a funny thing. It comes out of like
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: the skinniest, smallest fucking dude's mouth.
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: I wanted to reply and be like, yo, when you
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: want to do that, please come see me first. Come
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: see me first, because your crucable and real fucking quick,
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: like come on, dude, like, get the fuck over yourself.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: All right, let's get back into the book. Let's get
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: serious here, Angel. For the listeners who are just encountering
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: this book, even you, what do you mean by supernatural women?
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: And why is she so important to the male initiate?
• 27:10
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah. So the book explores
• 27:15
  Speaker 6: the history of the appearance of a supernatural woman to
• 27:20
  Speaker 6: male initiatives, let's say early from ancient Greece through Norse
• 27:26
  Speaker 6: mythology to Middle English literature. So there is a common theme,
• 27:33
  Speaker 6: and it seems to me that this figure of this
• 27:37
  Speaker 6: female is tied not only to the genius, but often specifically.
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: To poetry or literature.
• 27:45
  Speaker 6: And you know, you do see the supernatural man appearing
• 27:48
  Speaker 6: to women often, though not as often, and the best
• 27:55
  Speaker 6: example of that were part from fairies. But the best
• 27:59
  Speaker 6: example of that would be in the worldview of the
• 28:04
  Speaker 6: Norse speaking peoples or the Norse, and that is that
• 28:08
  Speaker 6: they had the conception of this supernatural woman called the
• 28:11
  Speaker 6: fil Gear, which basically followed one filgear would follow one
• 28:18
  Speaker 6: man throughout his life. Not every man had a fil gear,
• 28:22
  Speaker 6: but they were this supernatural being, and they would appear
• 28:26
  Speaker 6: right before death or a little while before death. But
• 28:30
  Speaker 6: they could also appear in dreams, and sometimes they would
• 28:33
  Speaker 6: appear if they got really say that they got really
• 28:35
  Speaker 6: fed up with the man, and they might appear and
• 28:37
  Speaker 6: then leave him. So they could actually detach themselves. It
• 28:40
  Speaker 6: wasn't like Crowley's you know, Holy Guardian Angel, which is
• 28:46
  Speaker 6: somehow it always tied to you. This female being could
• 28:52
  Speaker 6: actually desert one man if she didn't like him anymore,
• 28:56
  Speaker 6: and go with another man.
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: So and it.
• 28:59
  Speaker 6: Depended on the character of the individual. So if the
• 29:03
  Speaker 6: if a man had a strong character, we had a
• 29:04
  Speaker 6: strong field gear, and there was some relationship between the
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: character and this this supernatural being, as if they're kind
• 29:11
  Speaker 6: of feeding each other. But then if the man, you know,
• 29:15
  Speaker 6: proved himself to be a lowly character, then she would depart.
• 29:19
  Speaker 6: But in the same culture, there's no there's no equivalent
• 29:24
  Speaker 6: for women. Women don't have a supernatural man in the
• 29:27
  Speaker 6: same sense there is there is a term a dream
• 29:30
  Speaker 6: drama connor, meaning dream woman, which is sometimes synonymous with
• 29:34
  Speaker 6: this fil gear, and there is a there is another
• 29:38
  Speaker 6: term drama draw method, meaning dream man. So there were
• 29:43
  Speaker 6: a woman could have some sort of dreams of some
• 29:46
  Speaker 6: kind of male being, but there were wasn't quite the same.
• 29:49
  Speaker 6: It wasn't like a dream man would turn up at
• 29:51
  Speaker 6: the end of their lives or anything like that. Was
• 29:55
  Speaker 6: seemed to be intimately tied to the character, at least
• 29:57
  Speaker 6: not as far as we know anyway.
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: I know, like for myself, and it made me like
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: kind of wonder about your book or this idea. Once
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: I started having certain experiences and I, you know, I
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: don't I do believe that I like, I guess, you know,
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: left my body to an extent. It was just not
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: here anymore for some reason having that experience, and I
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: think like where I was. It's hard to explain, but
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: I've always kind of looked at it as some sort
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: of feminine thing. Or I think also because maybe the
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: whole experience, like when I had the experience, it was love,
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: So maybe I just have that associated with women or something.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: I don't know, but uh, even to the point where
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: I was trying to make sense of what I'm trying
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: to get at it. People happen to even know Mega
• 30:51
  Speaker 3: Death their song Mary Jane to me feels like the
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: same thing where it's like this sort of mystical woman
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: thing that you were just obsessed with now because of
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: an experience, And for me, I guess like there's like
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: some sort of divine feminine that I resonate with because
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: of that. It's almost like a you know, I had
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: to sound crazy or silly, but it's like almost a
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: longing for that experience again or that love.
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know if that's like anywhere kind of
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: what you go with with this book.
• 31:25
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, And I do talk a lot about altered
• 31:29
  Speaker 6: states of consciousness or hypnosis or trance in relation to
• 31:33
  Speaker 6: this figure, because she often turns up in dreams, and
• 31:38
  Speaker 6: this seems to be an important not way of contacting her.
• 31:42
  Speaker 6: Because at least in the North Well there's no sort
• 31:47
  Speaker 6: of ritual to the fil gear or anything like that.
• 31:49
  Speaker 6: There may be another culture, just like in ancient Greece
• 31:52
  Speaker 6: for example. You know, they might be prayers to the
• 31:56
  Speaker 6: nymph which a man would marry. But but yeah, but
• 32:01
  Speaker 6: it is intimately somehow tied to dreams and with that
• 32:05
  Speaker 6: with altered states of consciousness and the genius. So it's
• 32:08
  Speaker 6: a you know, inspiration. So yeah, so I definitely on
• 32:12
  Speaker 6: that exactly the inspiration. Yeah, it's almost like you now,
• 32:16
  Speaker 6: it's like an ethereal muse.
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, definitely, Yeah.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: I like that. That's awesome. Man, What was your original spark? Like,
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: what was it? What made you think, you know what,
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: we need a book on this?
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So I didn't actually think that. So I was writing.
• 32:35
  Speaker 6: I wrote, I wrote a lengthy prose poem, which I'm
• 32:40
  Speaker 6: you know, I'll probably be editing for the rest of
• 32:42
  Speaker 6: my life, no doubt.
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: But but I thought.
• 32:45
  Speaker 6: Well, no one's going to read a prose poem by itself,
• 32:48
  Speaker 6: and I need some some essays to go with it.
• 32:50
  Speaker 6: So it's so I wrote, I wrote some essays, and
• 32:52
  Speaker 6: I kept writing, and I kept editing and editing, and
• 32:55
  Speaker 6: then at one point, just this this theme started to
• 32:58
  Speaker 6: emerge and I thought maybe it should be a book,
• 33:02
  Speaker 6: and so it became a book. It just extracted a
• 33:05
  Speaker 6: couple of chapters and then began writing it as a book.
• 33:07
  Speaker 6: So that's actually how it happened. There wasn't a defining moment,
• 33:13
  Speaker 6: but Yeah, it was just sort of an awakening to
• 33:15
  Speaker 6: this subject that I don't think most people consider, even
• 33:19
  Speaker 6: in the occult world.
• 33:21
  Speaker 4: It's pretty undre.
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's cool. Look how that worked out. And here
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: you want to.
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: Did anybody have anything they wanted to say?
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: Actually did Yeah?
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: No, going, I actually wanted to ask you when it
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: comes to the mail in the ship, they don't usually
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: share this experience out loud with many people. When they do,
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: it's usually poo pooed off as a fantasy they're having
• 33:57
  Speaker 5: or something just a psychological thing. Do you think it's
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: danger to that particular initiate to be to encounter those dismissive,
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: dismissive explanations.
• 34:13
  Speaker 6: Well, I think, you know, we're very aware of how
• 34:18
  Speaker 6: he stereotyped women and all of the ways in which
• 34:21
  Speaker 6: women might be disenfranchised, but we don't really think the
• 34:24
  Speaker 6: same about men, because we tend to think that men
• 34:27
  Speaker 6: are oppressors. And you know, before I answer your question directly,
• 34:33
  Speaker 6: you know, as I've spoken across across America at different
• 34:37
  Speaker 6: Masonic lodges, and one of the reasons I wrote my
• 34:40
  Speaker 6: book as part of the Warrior Mystic being a man
• 34:42
  Speaker 6: in an Age of Chaos was because I just met
• 34:45
  Speaker 6: so many men who would you know, come up to
• 34:47
  Speaker 6: me after and say, well, you know, my father was
• 34:51
  Speaker 6: an alcoholic, or it was an abuser, or I didn't
• 34:53
  Speaker 6: know him. And it was clear to me that most
• 34:55
  Speaker 6: men are just completely lost in this day and age
• 34:58
  Speaker 6: and have no real guide. And you know, one of
• 35:01
  Speaker 6: the reasons for joining a Masonic lodge is actually to actually,
• 35:06
  Speaker 6: you know, have a little bit of guidance from men
• 35:08
  Speaker 6: who have character, rather than just sort of floating through life,
• 35:13
  Speaker 6: going from one thing to the next and never being
• 35:16
  Speaker 6: anchored anywhere. And you know, we're suspicious of a Masonic
• 35:20
  Speaker 6: lodge with men getting together and oh that's terrible and
• 35:24
  Speaker 6: all this kind of thing, but you know, it's like, yeah,
• 35:27
  Speaker 6: I try being a man.
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: You know, how do you like it?
• 35:30
  Speaker 6: You know, you grow up, you barely see your father.
• 35:33
  Speaker 6: You'll get your mother's always there, but you barely see
• 35:36
  Speaker 6: your father. You don't have any good role models. You're
• 35:39
  Speaker 6: told that you're just this horrible person who has oppressed
• 35:42
  Speaker 6: everyone from the age of zero.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 35:46
  Speaker 6: Yeah, of course, of course men are going to want
• 35:48
  Speaker 6: to be around other men of character, and it's a
• 35:51
  Speaker 6: healing thing. Why are you complaining? But but yeah, so
• 35:56
  Speaker 6: you know, one thing that we do is we talk about,
• 35:58
  Speaker 6: you know, men's sexual fantasies or you know, that's just
• 36:02
  Speaker 6: that's a male fantasy. Me men have fantasies. Of course,
• 36:05
  Speaker 6: women have fantasies too, you.
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: Know, and you know, and you know, I look.
• 36:10
  Speaker 6: A little bit at the female literature, and Jordan Peterson
• 36:15
  Speaker 6: has mentioned as but godic are completely wrong saying that actually,
• 36:18
  Speaker 6: you know, the most popular literature is where wolves. It's
• 36:22
  Speaker 6: actually not true, but but I mean it is true
• 36:25
  Speaker 6: that it's a tiny percent. So you can kind of
• 36:28
  Speaker 6: divide women's romantic literature into two. Mostly it's billionaires, doctors, lawyers, bodyguards,
• 36:36
  Speaker 6: you know, all the people who are kind of respectable
• 36:39
  Speaker 6: in society and have power in society. That's what women
• 36:43
  Speaker 6: fantasize about, apparently. But you know, there's a sort of
• 36:45
  Speaker 6: smaller genre of romantic literature, which is where wolves, warlocks,
• 36:51
  Speaker 6: vampires of course, you know, sort of these sort of
• 36:54
  Speaker 6: nighttime creatures that are going to take you away from society.
• 36:58
  Speaker 6: But yes, you know, it's a complex question that you're
• 37:03
  Speaker 6: asking in that you know, yeah, men do have fantasies,
• 37:06
  Speaker 6: and men like to project sexual fantasies onto the occult,
• 37:11
  Speaker 6: if that's what they are into.
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: And you know, not every.
• 37:14
  Speaker 6: Dream is a revelation. Sometimes it's just a dream. Not
• 37:18
  Speaker 6: every not every female figure that comes to your mind
• 37:22
  Speaker 6: when you're meditating is an appearance of a deity. Maybe
• 37:26
  Speaker 6: it's just your imagination. And I think that takes a
• 37:29
  Speaker 6: long time to kind of get a grips with and
• 37:33
  Speaker 6: to understand and to see what in a sense, what
• 37:37
  Speaker 6: emerges with each of these things, or doesn't emerge, or
• 37:40
  Speaker 6: what repeats over many decades. But yeah, to be instantly dismissive,
• 37:47
  Speaker 6: oh that's just a male fantasy is actually quite a
• 37:49
  Speaker 6: juvenile and actually of an unintelligent way of thinking about things.
• 37:55
  Speaker 6: You know, we should be able to look at, you know,
• 37:57
  Speaker 6: everything dispassionately and ask reasonable and rational questions, even though
• 38:03
  Speaker 6: what we're doing might not be rational.
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: And you know, and I tell you know, I meet all.
• 38:06
  Speaker 6: These people always say, you know, say that they're rational,
• 38:10
  Speaker 6: and well, why why do they put ingredients on the
• 38:13
  Speaker 6: back of food instead of on the front If you're.
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: So rational, why, you know, aren't you.
• 38:17
  Speaker 6: Interested in sex and movies and you know, a flashy
• 38:22
  Speaker 6: car and all this kind of nothing none of this
• 38:25
  Speaker 6: is is rational. We almost never think rationally, very I
• 38:29
  Speaker 6: mean very rarely we really think rationally. But we should
• 38:32
  Speaker 6: have the capacity to think rationally so that, you know,
• 38:35
  Speaker 6: so that we can evaluate things that are not necessarily irrational.
• 38:40
  Speaker 6: But yeah, so yeah, it in you know, in brief, Yeah,
• 38:43
  Speaker 6: it's it's a danger to dismiss something as just that's
• 38:48
  Speaker 6: a male fantasy. Justice is a danger to think that, oh,
• 38:52
  Speaker 6: you know, a woman appeared in my dream. That must
• 38:54
  Speaker 6: be some kind of supernatural woman who's got a message
• 38:56
  Speaker 6: for me. And I have to take it all terribly seriously.
• 38:59
  Speaker 6: You know, things need to be evaluated on their own merits.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: I believe in safe for myself. You don't be totally
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: honest with you. There was experiences that I had had
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: They were pretty intense and definitely changed my life, you know,
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: rock you know, I even had physical changes and everything
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: pretty pretty bizarre. And uh, I try talking to a
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: few people that were in the lodge with me when
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: I was in the OTO, and their answers were like
• 39:33
  Speaker 3: kind of a major reason why I left actually mmm,
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: because I was like, you're no fucking help whatsoever at all.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: And unfortunately, and this is the problem and I've even
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: it's another it must be like these orders. Like I've
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: even tried to talk to Golden Dawn dudes about it,
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: and it's like, I'm just at this point to where
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: it's like, if you didn't have this experience, you just
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: want to fucking blow it off because it's like, oh, fuck,
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: they might be better than me. And I'm not even
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: trying to say that. Yeah, where I think that's even
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: a huge reason. It's like the person might hurt their
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: ego if they think some other person that's in the
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: occult might have had an extainment or an experience they
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: haven't had yet. Yeah, it's like if I'm confused about it.
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: If I'm confused about it's still how much you know,
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: there's like what's really the difference because I don't fully
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: understand it, So I don't have the knowledge and understanding
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: still yet you know what I'm getting at it, It's
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: like what the I don't know?
• 40:25
  Speaker 6: Yes, silly, Yeah that's right. I mean, yeah, we don't
• 40:30
  Speaker 6: really have a system like Tantric Buddhism that goes back
• 40:34
  Speaker 6: thousands of years at all, and in some ways we're
• 40:37
  Speaker 6: kind of groping in the dark. I mean I think
• 40:40
  Speaker 6: The positive thing about that is that you know, that
• 40:45
  Speaker 6: enables us to be maybe more creative and artistic. But
• 40:49
  Speaker 6: there's a bigger risk to it as well well, unless
• 40:52
  Speaker 6: you get into the whole guru thing, which you know
• 40:54
  Speaker 6: sometimes i's abuse. But yeah, we're in a sense out
• 40:59
  Speaker 6: on our own psychoonauts, you know, exploring these worlds and
• 41:04
  Speaker 6: trying to having trying to figure things out for ourselves
• 41:07
  Speaker 6: to a very large degree. And you know, I've been
• 41:10
  Speaker 6: doing this for over forty years at this point, forty
• 41:16
  Speaker 6: five years. So I'm able to reflect to some degree
• 41:20
  Speaker 6: on forty years. So I've been able to reflect to
• 41:25
  Speaker 6: some degree on things that have happened. But you know,
• 41:28
  Speaker 6: it's a long process and you know it can't be rushed.
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: Probably, Yeah, yeah, I know, that's great.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: I was, I was wondering, and it seems to me
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: that when I first read the title of your new book,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: that this you know, supernatural woman, the first thing that
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: comes to mind for myself is again, it's interesting, I said,
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: it's not really talked about that much for many reasons,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: but in Dante's you know, works in his mind comedies,
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Beatrice being his supernatural woman, that idea of the beloved
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: coming down and making sure Dante follows the correct path,
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: so then Virgil can guide him through into the inferno
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: in the underworld. That also then reminds me of Plato
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: and his Platonic works, talking about how you know the
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: beloved and the beloved in the Phadrus that Socrates is
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: talking about, and how he has gone up against the
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: muses and he feels bad for what he says, so
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: he has to rework the whole.
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: Thing is that?
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: How much does that have to do with I think
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: it has a lot to do with what you're talking about, correct.
• 42:28
  Speaker 6: Yeah, it definitely does. Although I don't speak about Dante,
• 42:31
  Speaker 6: but you know, just just as an a science. Since
• 42:33
  Speaker 6: you mentioned Plato, and I forget which which Platonic dialogue
• 42:37
  Speaker 6: it's in, but you know, in one of the Platonic dialogues,
• 42:41
  Speaker 6: a Socrates says, so I'm speaking much more eloquently at
• 42:45
  Speaker 6: the moment. That's because you've exposed me to this nymph
• 42:47
  Speaker 6: that lives in this area, you know, And so the
• 42:50
  Speaker 6: nymph is something that some men would you marry, and
• 42:54
  Speaker 6: they would, you know, pray to the nymph or be
• 42:55
  Speaker 6: married to the nymph. Well, maybe pray to the goddesses
• 42:58
  Speaker 6: and gods as well, but maybe live out in the
• 43:01
  Speaker 6: wilds and be in a relationship with this nymph. So
• 43:04
  Speaker 6: it sounds to us just like it's a literary kind
• 43:06
  Speaker 6: of affectation, but it was really believed at the time.
• 43:10
  Speaker 6: But yeah, in regard to Dante and the supernatural woman
• 43:15
  Speaker 6: coming down to you know, help out the male, you
• 43:18
  Speaker 6: definitely see that a lot. And you know in Norse mythology,
• 43:23
  Speaker 6: for example, you know cigur to come what the dragon
• 43:27
  Speaker 6: slayer comes across this valkyrie, you know, the chooser of
• 43:30
  Speaker 6: the slain, who's a ring of fire on a mountaintop,
• 43:34
  Speaker 6: and she teaches him the magic. And it seems to me,
• 43:37
  Speaker 6: And I know I mentioned Jordan Peterson already kind of critically,
• 43:41
  Speaker 6: and I don't want to be critical, but you know,
• 43:45
  Speaker 6: Peterson talks about how the woman mythologically or psychologically, the
• 43:50
  Speaker 6: woman represents chaos, and just to strong Man his argument
• 43:57
  Speaker 6: or steel Man his arguments slightly, I mean, I guess
• 44:00
  Speaker 6: you could say that well, you know, yeah, the female
• 44:02
  Speaker 6: is often, not always, but often associated with the earth,
• 44:06
  Speaker 6: and the earth it's kind of chaotic, it's nature and wild,
• 44:09
  Speaker 6: and that is true. But I have to say in
• 44:12
  Speaker 6: my research over you know, everything from Ancient Greek to
• 44:16
  Speaker 6: Middle English. To me, what seems to be much more
• 44:20
  Speaker 6: of a recurring theme is that the woman is actually
• 44:23
  Speaker 6: the mind or the kind of intellects and the guiding principle,
• 44:28
  Speaker 6: and the male is this sort of a brute force,
• 44:31
  Speaker 6: you know, who's you know, slaying the dragon and going
• 44:34
  Speaker 6: out into nature of you know, in this ship going
• 44:36
  Speaker 6: to steal the golden fleece, and you know, it's just
• 44:40
  Speaker 6: this brute force, almost a brute force of nature in
• 44:43
  Speaker 6: a sense, just not really guided. And then that the
• 44:46
  Speaker 6: woman comes into to sort of you know, refine him
• 44:51
  Speaker 6: and put him in the right direction and also protect
• 44:53
  Speaker 6: him with magic. So you know, the male was like
• 44:56
  Speaker 6: this force, this energy, and the female is actually the mind.
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: They work together.
• 45:01
  Speaker 8: You get a character, Please go ahead, No, I just
• 45:08
  Speaker 8: wanted to ask, could it be that the woman is
• 45:11
  Speaker 8: viewed as chaos only because in order to refine and redeveloped,
• 45:17
  Speaker 8: you're going to have to shake some of the unneeded aspects,
• 45:21
  Speaker 8: and that brings on the chaos because it's usually.
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: Something that the initiate or the person is attached to
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: and they don't want to release.
• 45:32
  Speaker 4: So it seems to yeah.
• 45:35
  Speaker 6: I mean, I think you could say that. I think
• 45:37
  Speaker 6: it would. I mean, I don't think Jordan Peterson has
• 45:39
  Speaker 6: looked deeply at these same miss and isn't aware of them,
• 45:42
  Speaker 6: or isn't aware of most of them. So but you know,
• 45:45
  Speaker 6: I think, I mean, my honest the praise would be actually,
• 45:48
  Speaker 6: she more more likely represents order than anything that she
• 45:52
  Speaker 6: She is the one who establishes the path.
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: And you know, there's a really great.
• 45:57
  Speaker 6: Middle English what's a chore Chaucer Jeffrey Chaucer, the Middle
• 46:02
  Speaker 6: English author who wrote Canterbury Tales, And in there there's
• 46:07
  Speaker 6: a tale called the Wife of Bath, which is really
• 46:10
  Speaker 6: awesome and I won't go into the whole tale, but
• 46:14
  Speaker 6: this degenerate knight is forced to marry this old hag
• 46:19
  Speaker 6: and she beats him down. He's very abusive to her
• 46:24
  Speaker 6: and just an all around bad guy, and then she
• 46:26
  Speaker 6: beats him down psychologically or spiritually. And you know, says, oh,
• 46:30
  Speaker 6: you think you're an aristocrat because you were born into money,
• 46:33
  Speaker 6: But a real aristocrat is the character, and you don't
• 46:37
  Speaker 6: have one. You're just this, you know monster, and you
• 46:41
  Speaker 6: know what about Jesus and you're nothing like that, and
• 46:43
  Speaker 6: you're just terrible, and then she beats him down so
• 46:46
  Speaker 6: much that he accepts her a dominion over her, and
• 46:50
  Speaker 6: at that point she transforms into this beautiful woman, and
• 46:53
  Speaker 6: we realize, or we should realize, that she's actually a
• 46:56
  Speaker 6: fairy and she's sort of initiating him in a sense,
• 46:59
  Speaker 6: you know, our terminology and you know, rather like.
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: The film gear.
• 47:04
  Speaker 6: You know, she she or at least her appearance is
• 47:07
  Speaker 6: tied to his character. She is the ugliest woman on earth,
• 47:10
  Speaker 6: and he's a pretty ugly person inside. And then once
• 47:14
  Speaker 6: his character is transformed by her, then she she turns
• 47:17
  Speaker 6: into this beautiful woman, which you know, which matches his
• 47:22
  Speaker 6: inside now which has changed. But in this sense, she
• 47:26
  Speaker 6: is actually the initiator of order. She's the one who's
• 47:29
  Speaker 6: you know, making him not this sort of degenera who
• 47:32
  Speaker 6: should have had his head chopped off because he's just
• 47:34
  Speaker 6: this criminal, low life and you know, it has now
• 47:37
  Speaker 6: made him conform to society or society was obviously Christian
• 47:41
  Speaker 6: at the time. So yeah, so I think I think
• 47:45
  Speaker 6: he's mostly wrong, although you could just you could say
• 47:47
  Speaker 6: that well, you know, as a as a embodiment of
• 47:51
  Speaker 6: mother Earth or something that that would that would be chaos.
• 47:54
  Speaker 6: But I think that in my experience and as I
• 47:57
  Speaker 6: write about, I think this figure is much more about
• 48:00
  Speaker 6: order and about the minds than chaos. Vishal the man
• 48:05
  Speaker 6: is actually the kind of chaotic being. He is out
• 48:09
  Speaker 6: of control, you know.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: So her, you kind of answered my question angel or
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: my sort of thesis point. But I mean, and Judith
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: obviously address it with her question. But in Tantra, we
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: do consider the female concert to be able to arise
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: from chaos into space, so she can start there as
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: a lower point of consciousness. This kind of like quote
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: unquote guy in, I'm not that comfortable using the Hellenic cosmology,
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: but so I apologize, But we would call it like
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Mamos or Ekajati or like the primordial queen of like
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: the Pleiades or the Polestar. Sometimes it depends on you know,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: your text obviously, but yeah, she would climb in consciousness
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: to if you want to call it Ketter. So in
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: that action she kind of reconciles and rectifies herself. So
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: I but this is something that Brandon and I often
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: disagree about, is that like the more Hermetica ball places
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: like the Devouring Mother. Obviously I've been a but in tantra.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: We would say that every female wisdom dikini is a
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: wisdom dikini so closer to hope mad because they're free
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: in space if they're enlightened. Of course there are obviously
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: they can take appearance existence, or she can take appearance
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: existence in many forms. So I don't know if you
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: had any thoughts on that. If you if you like
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: like that idea that she can be sort of free
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: in space as wisdom rather than like the intellect. But
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to comment on that, I
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: would I would love to hear what you have to say.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 49:36
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so well, I think that what I'm dealing with
• 49:40
  Speaker 6: in the book is a particular category of the being,
• 49:45
  Speaker 6: which is one that is, you know, associated with the man,
• 49:47
  Speaker 6: but also with you know, the genius, poetry, literature, or
• 49:51
  Speaker 6: wisdom and dreams and death as well.
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: So you know, I.
• 49:55
  Speaker 6: Don't see anything in the myths that I've studied about
• 50:00
  Speaker 6: a woman kind of arising from a lower consciousness to
• 50:03
  Speaker 6: higher then might you might well be sort of lower
• 50:06
  Speaker 6: consciousness females in in the same culture that it's not
• 50:13
  Speaker 6: within these myths themselves or these stories themselves, or at
• 50:19
  Speaker 6: least it would if you even if you could discern it,
• 50:21
  Speaker 6: I think you would be largely projecting onto.
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: Does anybody have anything?
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just one more thought was that in which I
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: like from personally, I always like as much as I
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: like classical literature, I like to relate things to anime
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: and manga.
• 50:40
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: In there's this author Kishimoto who wrote Naruto, but he
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: did this like side thing where it's called Samurai eight
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: and he is talking about something fascinating where he's the samurai.
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: So he puts a lot of Bushido code into his workings,
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: and that the samurai so is his soul. And in
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: this in this story, what's beautiful about it is the
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: kid who's trying to become the samurai, and he's trying
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: to remember that he actually is and comes from this
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: long line of Samurai avatars, and so he himself lost
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: his higher self that he's trying to find back, and
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: he does that through the princess, through and in this aid.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: In this way, it's like an actual physical princess. But
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: the idea is that she is the only one who
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: has the key to unlock his his Samurai's sword, which
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: can be seen in many different ways, right the Freudian way,
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: to the Youngian way to the occultid esoteric way where
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: it's that holy grail, the merging type of sacred marriage.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: So I kind of find that fascinating with this beloved
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: to the beloved, but you also see it in the
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: Eastern styles with the bushido stuff.
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: So and I know with your Warrior Path work, you've talked.
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: To kind of about the mystic bushido stuff too, So
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: I just wonder if you have some thoughts.
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: On that's interesting.
• 51:57
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I'm not familiar with that story. I mean,
• 51:59
  Speaker 6: it's a very interesting and it seems to aligne with
• 52:02
  Speaker 6: what we're talking about, but you know, since I don't know,
• 52:04
  Speaker 6: I'm not going to comment on it. But yeah, I mean,
• 52:08
  Speaker 6: this is obviously not related to the samurai, but sort
• 52:11
  Speaker 6: of an interesting point that you know, in England and
• 52:14
  Speaker 6: maybe other parts of Northern Europe, there was a practice
• 52:18
  Speaker 6: of where you would bend a sword and break it
• 52:20
  Speaker 6: and throw it in the river when when the owner died,
• 52:23
  Speaker 6: as if to send it, you know, send it to
• 52:25
  Speaker 6: the afterlife with the owner. So that's kind of interesting. So,
• 52:29
  Speaker 6: you know what, I guess there's always a danger of
• 52:33
  Speaker 6: comparing cultures or thinking that similarities means it's the same
• 52:38
  Speaker 6: thing and it doesn't. But you know, you know, I
• 52:42
  Speaker 6: guess it might suggest that there is this idea that
• 52:46
  Speaker 6: the sword has a soul or as part of the
• 52:49
  Speaker 6: soul of the owner, which you could see.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: Why, Yeah, definitely, And what's so cool about it is
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: it does adhere to the idea that the masculine initiate,
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: which is what this that make character is, is a
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: more chaotic minded individual who's trying to get his shit together,
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: and he until he finds his honor, which is the princess,
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: until he has that thing to work towards, he can't
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: get and structure his life accordingly, which then is the
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: symbolic understanding of that sword being that of your critical
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: thinking or reason or you know, in these different things.
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: Let alone the intellect.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: And so it's almost like the feminine figure can ignite
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: the masculine intellect to be the true protector of the kingdom.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: Is kind of how I was reading that kind of situation,
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: which kind of relates.
• 53:40
  Speaker 3: I wanted to ask, And this is kind of actually
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: due to Gin a little bit about something he said
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: earlier that made me think about my own experience again
• 53:50
  Speaker 3: and kind of like the tree of life if you
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: were to kind of like for me, you know, if
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: I'm asking maybe the supernatural woman, if you from my
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: experience talking about this stuff I had before, and how
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: I looked at like this female divinity or something I
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: for some reason have always kind of looked at it
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: for some reason, as like the Empress Tarot card. When
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: Jin mentioned something about Chalkmar and a female thing that
• 54:18
  Speaker 3: made me think about, well it is between Chokmar and Bena.
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: Would you say that maybe would be if you had
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: to pick a Tarot card to maybe represent what you're
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: getting at, would you say that might Suffice might be
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: good enough.
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:32
  Speaker 6: I don't think it really aligns the terror Okay, yeah,
• 54:37
  Speaker 6: I mean there you know, there are plenty of female cards,
• 54:40
  Speaker 6: you know, the High Priestess as well. But yeah, I'm
• 54:43
  Speaker 6: not I'm not really sure which one I would pick,
• 54:47
  Speaker 6: and I'm not sure.
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: That it would really align with it totally if it did,
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: to be.
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: Honest, Okay, No, it was just something for me. That's
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: how we with the Umbers card. All right. Yeah, Now
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: the question I did have next, uh about the Muse.
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: You trace this figure through ancient Greek tradition. How does
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: the Muse differ from the modern idea of inspiration, do.
• 55:12
  Speaker 6: You Yeah, well, I think our modern idea of inspiration
• 55:17
  Speaker 6: is in a sense it's personal. That is, you know,
• 55:24
  Speaker 6: as someone who writes and you know, creates art as well.
• 55:28
  Speaker 6: The inspiration is seen to be, yeah, to come from
• 55:32
  Speaker 6: the genius. But the genius is just just a result
• 55:36
  Speaker 6: of the machinations of the brain ticking over or whatever
• 55:42
  Speaker 6: it might be. And I think the muse or these
• 55:47
  Speaker 6: figures that are associated with the genius in some way
• 55:51
  Speaker 6: they are external or to the person. And you know,
• 55:57
  Speaker 6: even as I mentioned in the Cigaret the dragon Slay
• 56:00
  Speaker 6: who meets this valkyrie who teaches in magic, that it's
• 56:03
  Speaker 6: something that comes from outside. And you know, there's always good,
• 56:10
  Speaker 6: good and bad points about anything. But I think, you know,
• 56:15
  Speaker 6: young and psychology has convinced us that it's all just
• 56:18
  Speaker 6: in our own heads. And I think that's just a
• 56:25
  Speaker 6: little bit dangerous that some things actually might be outside
• 56:29
  Speaker 6: of our heads. You know, it may be in a
• 56:32
  Speaker 6: supernatural sense obviously in other ways as wow, but you know,
• 56:37
  Speaker 6: some things are unexplained or seem to be. And I
• 56:41
  Speaker 6: think we all sort of sense that when you know,
• 56:44
  Speaker 6: we will move through the world and even if it's
• 56:46
  Speaker 6: these sort of coincidences or synchronicities, as Young would say,
• 56:51
  Speaker 6: something seems to be going on outside of us, some
• 56:54
  Speaker 6: force seems to be working outside of us. But yes,
• 56:59
  Speaker 6: I think, you know, that's the big difference that since
• 57:03
  Speaker 6: psychology we see everything as a just a process of
• 57:06
  Speaker 6: the of the brain. So I think, you know, even
• 57:09
  Speaker 6: gods are just god to just represent some aspect of
• 57:11
  Speaker 6: our psyche or whatever it might be. And maybe there's
• 57:14
  Speaker 6: a parallel in nature or something like that, but it's
• 57:17
  Speaker 6: essentially internal that you know, if you do a ritual
• 57:20
  Speaker 6: to Mars, you know, Mars isn't a real thing that's
• 57:23
  Speaker 6: out there. Mars is you know, it's the you know,
• 57:27
  Speaker 6: the feisty Marshall aspect of our personality that might be
• 57:31
  Speaker 6: underdeveloped or whatever. But you know, in antiquity it wasn't
• 57:35
  Speaker 6: you know, they didn't really think, well, you know, let
• 57:38
  Speaker 6: me pray to Mars because it's part of my personality.
• 57:40
  Speaker 6: They thought, so that the God can come and help
• 57:42
  Speaker 6: me win a battle. You know, maybe i'll see him
• 57:45
  Speaker 6: on the battlefield. It's this external thing. So I think
• 57:48
  Speaker 6: that's the big difference.
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: Thank you, that was a great answer. Anybody have anything
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: before I go forward. Nothing. What role does the supernatural
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: woman play in Zoraeshrian or Irenian tradition?
• 58:07
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's not something I touch on as much or
• 58:11
  Speaker 6: go into as much, but yeah, it's intriguing. There's this
• 58:15
  Speaker 6: this female being called a Dana, and she stands on
• 58:20
  Speaker 6: this bridge between life and death, of the Bridge of Sinba,
• 58:25
  Speaker 6: and if when the deceased person approaches, if she judges
• 58:30
  Speaker 6: that they are of a poor character, she will, you know,
• 58:33
  Speaker 6: send them into hell. And if if they are of
• 58:35
  Speaker 6: a good character, then she will lead them across the
• 58:39
  Speaker 6: bridge into the heavenly realm. So you know, it's you
• 58:44
  Speaker 6: know again, it's this female being who's who's in some
• 58:47
  Speaker 6: way tied to the character of the individual.
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: That's interesting. There was a an actual name. I forget,
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: I can't remember. I should. I just was reading it
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: and recording it yesterday, but there was like an actual male.
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: I wanted to do a show on male moon gods
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: because you know, I think most people just always associate
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: that with feminine that's right, And I'm like, well, there
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: are dudes associated with it, and there may be a
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: reason for them, you know. So I did a show
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: on that, and there was one that like one of
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: the male moon gods kind of was like a dude
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: that was like judging you in the sky. Like it
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: was kind of the whole story was kind of being
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: like from being judged and like on kind of toss
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: to the side almost like well, you're just interesting what
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: you just said right now. I was like, oh, I
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: was just reading about a male moon god that that
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: had that attribute, but yet you were giving it to
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: a woman, you know.
• 59:37
  Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, well on the on the note of male
• 59:42
  Speaker 6: moon gods, yeah, I mean this came out recently. I
• 59:45
  Speaker 6: gave it a talk and a Masonic lodge and somebody
• 59:47
  Speaker 6: said to me, well, isn't isn't the male and female
• 59:50
  Speaker 6: implied in the sun and moon in the lodge? And
• 59:53
  Speaker 6: I said, well, I assuming you think that the sun
• 59:55
  Speaker 6: is male and the moon is female, because it doesn't
• 59:58
  Speaker 6: say that they have a during freemasonryes. But you know,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 6: but he's ready young and he knows that that's the
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 6: case always except when it's not the case. And yeah,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 6: I mean even you know, Sunday and Monday come from
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 6: old Old English words, and the Old English or the
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 6: Anglo Saxons had a moon god and a sun goddess.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: And you know, you can see why if.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 6: You read the old English written poem where it talks
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 6: about day, you know, meaning the sun is effectively you
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 6: know what is day or what is the sun? It's
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 6: this nurturing thing that brings blessings to everyone. And you
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 6: know you can see why, right if you're in the
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 6: desert and the sun is blazing down, destroying your crops,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 6: going to burn you to a crisp in three hours,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 6: and it's a then it's this raging war god with
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 6: its spears of you know heat. But if you're in
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 6: some freezing country in northern Europe where they have you know,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 6: night for twelve hours, the sun is a goddess that's
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 6: nurturing and brings life. It's the same thing, but it's
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 6: a totally different experience of it.
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I even found it interesting how a lot of
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: ways that it was tied to men was because of
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: the hunting aspect, because exactly that's right. Yeah, yeah, even
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: with the moonlight, it's like enough to where you could
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: still hide, but enough to see to go out and hunt.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 4: And I was like, oh, that's yeah, that's interesting. Yeah.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 6: Years ago on that years ago, I went to a
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 6: Masonic lodge and it was in the middle of the
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 6: countryside in America and they said, oh, this is a
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 6: moon lodge, and I'd never even heard of a moon
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 6: lodge and they said, well it us. They used to
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 6: meet on the full moon because it was the only
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 6: time you have enough light to get to lodge in back.
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it was used as a way to like, yeah,
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: function and yeah. I found that so interesting.
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so you can see it, like one hundred, two
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 6: hundred years ago that the full moon would have been
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 6: a big thing, and it's going to just having whether
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 6: you go out or not, probably not most of the time,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 6: you know, meeting once a month because of the full moon.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. It was like I even put in there,
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: it's like, how will we even think of that now
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: with all the external lights, but like with you all
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: that gone, think about how dark it will be outside
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: that full moon. It's like, yeah, party time, let's have
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 3: a rate.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 9: Yeah yeah, nice, that's all right, to anybody have anything
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 9: before I keep going, okay, all right, Why do you
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 9: think erotic or romantic dream encounters are so common in
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 9: spiritual magical traditions?
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 6: Well, it may be it may be partly authentic and
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 6: it might be partly male fantasies, right, so.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 4: It can be a bit of both.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 6: So that's probably why. But yeah, I mean, I'll talk
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 6: about my own experience. I've mentioned this before, but I
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 6: had a very very interesting experience that I really did
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 6: think and do you think was something really significant, and
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 6: that is, you know, I used to have these nightmares,
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 6: these reoccurring nightmares, and yeah, one night or one morning,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 6: it gets sense. I was asleep and I could sense
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 6: that I was going into this nightmare and I feel
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 6: the dread, you know, because I was getting sucked into it.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 6: And then all of a sudden, this beautiful naked woman
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 6: wrapped herself around me. And you know, the natural instinct
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 6: Lune was saying with our culture would be to interpret
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 6: that as all that's a male fantasy and boo and
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 6: you know, sexism. But you know, this being sort of
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 6: wrapped herself around me, and the nightmare sort of dissipated.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 6: It didn't happen, and I've never had that nightmare since.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 6: And you know, in a world of psychology, you know,
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 6: I think the instinct if not to just say it's
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 6: a male fantasy, but if we were going to go
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 6: a bit deeper, in our culture, we would say that, wow,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 6: this is some part of the unconscious and this is
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 6: just part of the psyche, and you know, well, it's
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 6: just part of you.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 4: But you know, I would.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 6: Say, well, how is it possible that when I was
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 6: in a state of dreads going into this nightmare, that
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 6: there's some independent part of my psyche that can swoop
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 6: in and save me from it and then it never
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 6: happens again. And you know, and maybe you know, maybe
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 6: they're right, but you know, I don't know that they
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 6: are or they're not. They didn't feel like that at all.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 6: It felt like something completely external.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 4: And you know.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 6: I was saying earlier that our conception of these things,
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 6: as opposed to the ancients or the people before them,
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 6: modern the world, is that, you know, we think of
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 6: it as all in our brain, and they think thought
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 6: of it as all all external. But you know, regardless
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 6: of who's right, I think at the end of the day,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 6: it might be better to think that it's external, even if
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 6: it's not, because that gives it a sort of power
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 6: that it wouldn't otherwise have. But you know, I personally
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 6: do think it's at least partly external. But certainly this
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 6: this figure you know, did not feel like a tool.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 6: It was part of my my psyche. It seemed to
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 6: be completely independent to it. And the fact that I've
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 6: never had this nightmare again when I had it pretty frequently,
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 6: you know, it says something to me that is beyond
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 6: what I think psychology can explain, or at least can explain.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, no, I love that because it's it's going on.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: Something that I think is really important that happens in
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: our history of language is that we start to understand that,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: due to our language, we separate things into subjective and
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: objective consciousness, and it's actually so much like more merged
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: into that kind of thing. And so it's like troublesome
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: that we keep wanting to make things all mind or
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: all matter, when actually that's not how we experience reality.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: We experience it phenomenlogically, which means that we're like our We're.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 4: Intending towards something at all times.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: And so it's like, how do we then get to
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: the place where we can speak and write and actually
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: explain our real in a way that merges.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 4: These two things.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: We always have to come up with a brand new
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: language to do so, and I think it would be
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: a lot healthier because then we want psychologize things and
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: we want like objectify things so much.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 6: Yeah that's right, Yeah, yeah.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 5: I do. I do have a I do have a
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 5: question because we're talking about how a supernatural woman actually
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 5: helps elevate and mold the male initiate. But do you
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 5: find that sometimes instead of being elevated, sometimes the male
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 5: initiate gets trapped within the ideology and or I hate
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 5: to say fantasy, but fantasy of her.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 6: Well, I think that this supernatural woman figure is largely
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 6: in our time, but I mean, yeah, I mean, if
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 6: they may always devoting himself, let's say, to a female goddess,
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 6: it might well be you know, obviously there's a danger
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 6: of it sort of becoming this sort of sexual obsession or.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 4: Something like that.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 6: But I think, you know, personally, I see most people
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 6: in the esoteric are in some way trapped, and that's
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 6: definitely my experience of being around them or being involved
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 6: in their groups or whatever. I would honestly say that
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 6: most people involved in the esoteric are actually not esoteric
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 6: at all. They're actually fundamentalists, and we foolishly get tricked
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 6: into believing they're esoteric because they like alchemy or something
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 6: like that. You know, it's like, you know, I was
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 6: with members of Tahodi Lodge about twenty five years ago
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 6: a couple of birthday celebrations in a restaurant, and not
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 6: to pick on them, but you know, I remember this simply.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 6: You know, they were all through the night they were
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 6: quoting the Book of the Law and their system and system,
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 6: and I was like, good God, you know, if this
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 6: was if this was Christians, I mean, at least their
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 6: book is huge in comparison. But you know, if this
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 6: was Christians, I would think these people are utter lunatics.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: But they would have been talking if they heard another
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: religion doing that, sorry Mysade. So they totally would have
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: had something to say if they heard overheard another religion
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: doing that.
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 6: Absolutely they were they would, they would, and if it
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 6: was Christians, they would laugh their head off. Your book,
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 6: your Holy Book is about five pages long, but yet
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 6: you quote it all night long at everything.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: That's why.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 6: But it's a fundamentalist mindset, but it is. You know,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 6: we think, oh, they're esoteric because they like Crawley, but
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 6: actually it's it's fundamentalism, and I see it. I see
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 6: it everywhere more and more.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 4: It's you know, I gave a talk at.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 6: At a larger a little while ago on the Supernatural Woman.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 6: And you know, this person asked about the sun of
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 6: moonbie male and female, and I said, well, where where
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 6: you know, where you're getting that.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 4: Doesn't say that they're male or female.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 6: And the Masonic Lodge you're projecting your you know, it's
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 6: jungianism that you think is real and everywhere onto the
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 6: onto the Masonic ritual and symbolism, whereas you should actually
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 6: just begin with what it says and figure out what
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 6: it actually means in itself. But when I you know,
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 6: as soon as I said that, someone else, you know,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 6: put up their hand and said, well, but but there
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 6: are other But couldn't you say, you know, there's male
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 6: and female all through? And I said, you could. You
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 6: could say that, right, You could say a sword is
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 6: male and a and the column of beauty is female.
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 6: Of course you could say that, I mean, obviously, But
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 6: you know, it's like he couldn't process the idea that
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 6: it might not be the sort of Jungian male and
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 6: female thing, and that we should just begin with what
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 6: it says rather than what we can impose on it.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 6: It's like, yeah, obviously, a sword could be masculine. But
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 6: if that's not what it's saying, why not begin with
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 6: what it says? What does it say about the sword?
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 6: Or what does it say about.
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 4: The column of beauty? Why wouldn't you begin? Why would you?
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 6: Why would you go to something and impose your views
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 6: on it because you think that they're universal. Why wouldn't
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 6: you actually try to just learn what it says and
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 6: then see if you agree with it or not.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: You know, it's like.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 6: That Zen saying, that Zen anecdote, which I'm sure we
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 6: all know of, you know, the I forget who it is,
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 6: but this, you know, zen disciple goes to a Zen
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 6: monk is talking away, and that the Zen monk is
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 6: pouring tea into a carp and he allows it to
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 6: all flow over.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 4: And the disciple says, you know, what are you doing?
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 6: It's all flowing over, And he says, you know, like
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 6: your your mind, nothing else can go in. You know,
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 6: that's a that's a state of so many people in
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 6: this world that they have a theory and then they join,
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 6: you know, some initiatic tradition and they imposed that on
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 6: the tradition. They see it there, but they don't actually
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 6: learn anything about the tradition that they just join. They
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 6: just try and impost something and post something on it.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 6: So you know, I think that you know that this,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 6: you know, fundamentalism is not something that's inherent to Christianity
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 6: or Buddhism or Judaism, and just as esotericism is not
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 6: fundamental to the world of the esoteric, you know, and
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 6: most people in esotericism are you know, have fundamentalist traits,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 6: whereas you know, I've met a monk. You know, I
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 6: used to stay in a monastery for a few days
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 6: a year, and you could say that they were extremely,
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 6: extremely chill in comparison. You know, if you didn't believe it,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 6: they didn't care. I wouldn't reading the Bug of our
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 6: Guita the first time. And you know there's a monk
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 6: who's converted, who was Indian. He's just it's just sort
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 6: of interested why I was reading the Bug of our Guita.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 6: You know, no one said to me, I shouldn't do that,
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 6: So you know, it's the mindset is different. But you know,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 6: there is this fundamentalism in the occult world and in
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 6: the esoteric world.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I've noticed for just some reason, I don't know,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: I've just noticed it seems to go with orders more
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: and I wonder if it almost looks to me like
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: like a religion or a church for them.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I've definitely known people who have, you know, said, well,
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 6: you know, they will go through all of the Masonic degrees,
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 6: and there are many of them. I mean there's three
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 6: ended apprentice, Fellowcraft and Master Mason when you've essentially completed Freemasonry.
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 6: But then they all of these others were created in
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 6: France and Germany as you've got all of these competing
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 6: Masonic rites during the eighteenth century, and then some of
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 6: these degrees remain, but you know, there's thirty three in
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 6: the Scottish rite. I think there's ten ten authentic and
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 6: depending on account it in the Yorkry. And then there
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 6: are all these other degrees on the side, and you know,
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 6: I've met people who have gone through them all. And
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 6: then they join invitational Masonic bodies, and they join the
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 6: Martinists and the Hamitic Order of the Golden Dawn, and
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 6: they really feel that they've got the secret now because
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 6: in the Rose quad degree, the rose and Cross means this.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 6: And then they joined the Society Cristiana and a little
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 6: bit different, and then they joined the Golden Dawn. It
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 6: was a little bit different. And now they've got the secret.
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 6: So all these things were just made up historically. It's
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 6: nothing wrong with them, you know their systems. But the
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 6: point isn't to keep going through collecting little tidbits of
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 6: information or getting another symbol.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 4: It's to have a.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 6: Revelation and be connected to something real. You know, I
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 6: said this rather controversially at the large I spoke to
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 6: I said, you know, you go through these degrees, that's
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 6: not the point of an initiation.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 4: The point of an initiation isn't to go through.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 6: Another thirty degrees or then you join you know, some
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 6: irregular Masonic, you know Memphis and misraem right of ninety
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 6: three degrees or ninety five degrees, and you can get
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 6: those and then it's endless. The point is to be
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 6: connected to something real or you know, something outside of
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 6: yourself that reveals the mystery of existence that you know,
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 6: reveals life to be a kind of poem in a sense.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 3: You know, I remember when I and I mean well,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, I guess it's story with you, Judith, me
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: and you, me and you and Jordan happened to take
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: whenever a degree together at the lodge. I remember afterwards
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 3: Jordan had made like a comment like us, I really
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 3: because like they would have specific times you had a
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 3: weight between initiations, and he was like, oh, we really
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: got a weight. And I think you might have been
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: the lodge mister actually at the time who said like
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 3: kind of helps to even understand the experience you just
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: had from the initiation before you move on to another one. Yeah,
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: And I'm like, yeah, it's supposed to be an experience.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well it's almost even like the people who
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: take massive dosages of mushrooms or psychedelics and then all
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: of a sudden they do it again the.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 4: Next day or a week later.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: It's like, how can you You can't possibly fathom and
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: to integrate the experience and then just to continue putting
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: your nervous system in a vulnerable state.
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 4: You know. That's how we lose boundaries.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: And I think that's one of the massive problems with
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: the psychedelic and theogenic usages, is that we don't know
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: how to create boundaries, which are really important.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 5: Also to add on that, I think it's people tend
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 5: not to process the experience they don't they don't try
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 5: to learn from it, and I think that's also a
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 5: big problem.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it is.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and that's you know that you know, as I say,
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 6: you know that that's something that takes years, especially for
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 6: you know, people in the West where we don't have
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 6: a kind of cannon that we're drawing on necessarily. You know,
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 6: you know, it takes and you know, as you were saying,
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 6: you know, then you get people in orders who try
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 6: and dismiss what you've experienced, or they try and tell
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 6: you what it is and it's actually not that because
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 6: they want to fit it into their mold, but actually
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 6: it might be something else for you. And to explore
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 6: that deeply, it takes a long time. Thanks, years gonna
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 6: get little little things are gonna happen along the way.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 4: That kind of makes sense of that.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: So there's times now when I was like, things that
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 3: I went through with initiation will pop into my head
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: and I'll be like, holy fuck, what the fuck did
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 3: that mean? Yeah, you know, like I'm still like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, And.
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 5: It's not the initiation you just went through. It's probably
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 5: the initiation you took a couple.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 3: Of yek yeah, yeah, So yeah, that's what I'm saying.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 3: It's like shit from like years ago. Now I'm like,
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: fuck that small little thing, like is there a reason
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 3: for that? You know? And I'll mind fucked the shit
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: out of it, and who knows. But yeah, like there's
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 3: still things that still pop up that I'm like, I
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 3: don't even understand what that was there for why, you know? So, yeah,
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 3: there's something I think you need to figure out whatever,
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 3: I think it helps.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think I even myself am still putting
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: together and learning from and reworking my early years of
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 2: psychedelic experiences. I'm almost forty. In my younger twenties is
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: when I, you know, broke free from the matrix or
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: whatever the fuck that means. But it's when I had
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: my own apocalyptic vision and everything is I'm now talking
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: to you guys, you know what I mean. My whole
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: life changed in those moments. But I find like it
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: took me twenty years and my own you know, externalized
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: supernatural woman, my lovely Kaiva Rose, she like I've gone
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: through so not gone through, but like I've had relationships.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 2: We're just me projecting my Onama externally and it has
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: been kind of like what they say, I think. In
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: Crowley's book four, he talks about through the initiations that
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: you can actually have a feminine figure, or for the females,
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 2: the masculine figure that leads you away from your path
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: as you're going up the initiatory grades right, and instead
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 2: I'm finally figuring, like I figure not figured it out,
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: but I've worked my way through a bunch of stuff.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: And then all of a sudden, my beautiful Rose has
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: now helped lead me into my true pathway because if
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: she knows how to a bring the fire and at
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: the same time hold the crucible that allows my own
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: organizational intellect. And you know, it's led me to you know,
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 2: the stream with you three.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 4: You know, so fascinating.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's good, thank you. Oh one other thing I
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 3: didn't want to get into. I was gonna kind of
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 3: get in there and cut it off. Soon the book
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 3: brings in young Animal and animals. Where does young help
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 3: us understand this phenomenon? And where do you think he
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 3: falls short? Yeah?
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 4: Well I think he mostly falls short.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 6: To be honest with you, you probably expected I was going
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 6: to say that, right, Yeah, I mean I suppose I
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 6: suppose you could say that, Well, you know, he he
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 6: kind of unveiled to our society that was quite rigid
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 6: at one point, that there was this, you know, feminine side,
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 6: and that the men could have a feminine side and
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 6: this kind of thing. I mean, I read his wife's
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 6: writing on the animal and animals, I thought that she
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 6: would be the best person to read and Emma Young
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 6: and I have to say, it's more a cult than
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 6: almost any occult book you could read. But it also
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 6: to me it also didn't make a lot of sense,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 6: you know, and that's one thing that actually kind of
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 6: made it very occult sounding. But you know, she references
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 6: Odin and ruins and valkyries.
• 1:19:15
  Speaker 4: And stuff like that. It's all very cool, but.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 6: At the same time, you know, I was less convinced
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 6: by the theory after I had read it than I
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 6: was before, and I felt that the popular notion of
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 6: the anima, where you know, the woman you fall in
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 6: love with is your reflection of your animal. It was
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 6: actually much more sophisticated than the real sort of Yungian theory,
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 6: which I found bizarre. But I hope by not doing
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 6: it an injustice. But basically, it's the idea that well,
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 6: you know, so any and almost anything you're attracted to
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 6: is let's say, as men is the anima, and you know,
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 6: and the animal can appear in could appear in a
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 6: fairy tale or on that's some TV drama in life,
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 6: of course, and then behind it there's this great mother
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 6: animal that's molding all of these to her shape, she says.
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 6: And I already found that kind of confusing enough, not
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 6: least of all because I would be constantly assaulted by
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 6: the anima, you know, and I think we all would,
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 6: but which would make us living in a matriarchy, I guess.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 6: But but but but then at one point she says, oh,
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 6: and the anima leads us to more and more consciousness,
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 6: which seems to be more like more and more fitting
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 6: into society. But then she says, but there's this other
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 6: type of anima, and she says, she can't explain why,
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 6: but that leads leads the man away from consciousness, or
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 6: you know, might say, leads him away from fitting into society.
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 4: I think.
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 6: And although she says she can't understand why, which is
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 6: maybe not a good thing to say in a book,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 6: but you know, I did feel if she had explored that,
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 6: they would have got somewhere really interesting, because rather like
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 6: the female romantic literature of billionaires and doctors on one side,
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 6: and were wolves and vampires.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 3: On the other.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 6: You know, maybe this other anima that's leading men away
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 6: from consciousness is actually leading them to the genius and
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 6: maybe the anima And this was my reading. The animal
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 6: of you know, of unionism is actually this thing that's
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 6: kind of plugged, trying to plug men into society. And yeah,
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 6: and so it's almost like it's anti genius when you
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 6: really take a look at what, at least what I'm
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 6: a younger saying.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 4: That's my reading on it.
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 6: But you know, my objection to it is ultimately that
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 6: it's less interesting than you know, what you find in
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 6: antiquity with the fil gear or the nymph. For it's
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 6: this real being that transforms you, is associated with the
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 6: with the genius, not with plugging you into society, but
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 6: with the genius and with literature and poetry and dreams
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 6: and death, and I find that much more exciting. And
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 6: it's considered to be a real thing that you know,
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 6: can show up and kind of you know, well maybe
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 6: you know, reveal itself to you when it wants to,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 6: so you know, so, yeah, on the one hand, yeah,
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 6: it's it's good because you know, and they's okay, men
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 6: have a feminine side or whatever, or that there's some
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 6: kind of projection of the character into a kind of
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 6: feminine appearance. But I don't think for me that doesn't
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 6: really get me anywhere. But yeah, so it's good in
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 6: that sense maybe, but I think it's kind of inferior
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 6: to what we see in ancient mythology, which is a
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 6: lot more interesting.
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's great.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: I do completely agree with that because the animal psychological
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: like young and Nima thing. Is it helpful when we're
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: trying to understand, but not help when we're trying to
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: implement an actual magical worldview of a completely synthesized world
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: of mind magic.
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 6: Yeah, And I don't think it was her, but I
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 6: saw another early Youngian astu as the recording of her
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 6: speaking and she says, oh, she had a dream about
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 6: this little boy, and she realized that this was the
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 6: It was the animals, and it's everywhere.
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 4: It's your lover, it's this attractive man or woman.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 6: It's a woman or a man in a fairy tale,
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 6: it's the mother goddess behind it, or it's a child.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 6: It's like, is there anything that isn't the animal, and
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 6: I found that confusing.
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, help, yeah, because why can't it actually be its
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: own autonomous entity that enters into the dream world to
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: help bring you into Yeah, that's it.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's it, because I mean, let's let's just convert
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 6: it not being a little boy the animals, but let's
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 6: say it's a little girl the animal.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 4: But it's like, what's that everything?
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 6: It's the attractive woman, you know, it's your girlfriend, it's
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 6: you're you know, this woman you read about in a book.
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 6: It's this child. It's like, what's going on. It's just
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 6: too much. It's like this constant animal astule.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 6: It's like, it can't be that if it's a real thing,
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 6: and I think that's the thing it starts to reveal itself.
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 4: It's more, it's like a.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 6: Theory that you can you can mold or that it
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 6: can mold you.
• 1:24:20
  Speaker 4: But it's not. It's not itself.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 6: It's not you know, I would expect the anima to
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 6: be one thing that would be recognizable, even if it's
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 6: projected onto your goldfriend or whatever. But but you know,
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 6: it's it's a definite thing, and that's it. That the
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 6: theory is it's just too amorphous and it can be anything,
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 6: and that that I think allows it to be open
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 6: to abuse.
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: So yeah, no, and it almost it seems a little
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: sylapsistic and it's.
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 6: Yeah, very much so yeah, which I think, you know
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 6: psychology that there is a danger of that anyway, but yeah,
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 6: I mean I think, yeah, and then but of course
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 6: you know that it can also be well, that attractive
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 6: woman is my animal, so of course, so ship, you.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, then that's that's like scarlet woman ship. All
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 2: of a sudden, we're like protecting the scarlet woman onto
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: every woman we want to bang or something like that.
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 4: So delicately yeah, yeah, that's that redneck farm kid in.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 3: Me that I was like, Yo, how does he know that?
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 3: That's fucking funny you just said that, Brandon. It's real
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 3: talk out with the mouth.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 4: Can't help it, can help it.
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: Born and raised, I may have transcended that, but it's
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: forever there.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 3: I get it. I get it. Thank you so much
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 3: for coming all man, this is really a great talk.
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 3: I really love to have you back on in the
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 3: future too. I mean, there's so many things a conversation
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 3: with Again, it was truly a pleasure, great answers and
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 3: brilliant depth stuff. Man, I appreciate you coming on.
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 6: And bringing That's.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 3: Exactly what I try to get kind of, guess I
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 3: try to get on. Before we wrap it up, Judith,
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 3: would you like to say anything and let everybody know
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 3: the funny stuff first?
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 5: Thank you for having me. It's always a pleasure to
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 5: see Brandon and Jin. I love seeing you guys. Angel
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 5: I actually have to say a special thank you for
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 5: you addressing this subject matter. As someone who's been dealing
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 5: within the occult world for decades now, the male experience
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 5: has not been represented enough I feel or understood enough,
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 5: and I actually you've brought a little bit more of
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 5: an understanding into my view and I hope throughout the
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 5: community more people will understand this angle of the process.
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 5: Everybody else. You could find me on X breaker and
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 5: YouTube as the Loon. Actually, I have the weekly brunch
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 5: coming up later on today.
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 3: Weesome, awesome. Thank you very much for joining us. I
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 3: appreciate it. I know you are busy some of this
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: and my man, Brandon, what is going on? So please
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 3: let everybody know what's up with the maggis.
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, lots of stuff.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 5: Going on.
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: Yet Nick has always loved being a fellow reject trying
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: to reorganize the Western soteric occult community of all its nonsense,
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: bringing that fire on a daily basis. Judith, I love
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: being on stream with you. You're I You are such
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: a doll, and I just, yeah, what, I'm so lucky
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 2: every time our our stars aligned to be here together. Yeah, Angel,
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: I'm so looking forward to chatting with you on my
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 2: own area as well. Your books have been helping guide
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: of also uh masculine male myself trying to find his
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: way in this strange ocean of a world, and so
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 2: I'm very grateful that we were able to meet. Yeah,
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: so this is this has actually been something I wanted
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: to do for a long time, as meet you and
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 2: have this conversation. Yeah, besides that, people just head over
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: to Maggas in the media. We're breaking things down on
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 2: a daily basis, and that's all. Just subscribe, like and share.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 2: I got merch, we got videos, we got all that stuff.
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 2: Everyone on this panel and every reject there, everyone out
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 2: there listening, just subscribe to all of us because there's
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: lots of nonsense out there and we're trying to take
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: the sort of reason to it as fast as possible.
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 4: So yeah, thank you Nick, thank you, Angel, thank you
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 4: for much.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 3: Thank you, Maggie. Always appreciate it when you're here, my man,
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 3: and shout out to Jen, thank you very much for
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 3: making it on here. Go check out a special Saints
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 3: and that Friday Night nastic mess stuff he does. Go
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 3: check that out. And Angel, please let everybody know anything
• 1:28:39
  Speaker 3: you want to promote, mind him about the book. If
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 3: you got anything you want people to check out, please
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 3: let him know.
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 6: Well, I would love people to check out the book
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 6: Supernatural Woman and the Male Initiate bomb It through Dreams,
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 6: which you can get on pre order from Amazon, and
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 6: it'll be on bombs and Noble and all of those
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 6: other places pretty soon.
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 4: So yeah, awesome.
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 3: Well again, thank you very much, and hopefully we'll have
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 3: you back as a return and guest some point in
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 3: the future.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely, thank you. Good chatting with.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 3: You, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, and everybody in the chat, I
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 3: really appreciate it. There was a lot of great stuff
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 3: in there, and that's why I go live. I love
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 3: seeing you guys, And until the next one, everybody be well.
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 3: Lada