Latest / Project Podcast / Lessons on reaching the C-suite with Babcock International Group’s Donna Sinnick

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Lessons on reaching the C-suite with Babcock International Group’s Donna Sinnick · Project Podcast

0:08
Welcome to the APM podcast. APM is the childhood body for
0:11
the project profession. My name is Emma DaVita and I'm
0:14
the editor of Project APM's quarterly journal and your host.
0:18
In this podcast, I'm speaking to Donna Sinnick, Chief Delivery
0:22
Officer at Babcock International, a defence,
0:25
aerospace and security company, about her rise to the top of the
0:29
profession and the valuable career and project management
0:32
lessons she's learnt along the way.
0:34
Donna shares her advice on everything from creating
0:37
simplicity in programmes and projects, being a woman in a
0:40
male dominated environment and moving on from impostor
0:44
syndrome. Listen on to hear her story.
0:50
Welcome, Donna. Thanks so much for your time
0:52
today and big congratulations. New job role, Chief Delivery
0:57
Officer at Babcock International.
0:59
Congratulations. Thank you very, very much.
1:03
But why don't we begin with you telling us a bit about what you
1:06
do, so your kind of role and responsibilities and what kinds
1:10
of projects and programmes you work on?
1:12
So Babcock so I cover global Babcock.
1:16
So we've got footprint in in many countries across across the
1:20
world, quite a strong footprint within the defence of the UK.
1:25
So my responsibilities when I first joined Babcock three years
1:29
ago, it was to set up a global project management organisation.
1:33
We already had around 2000 project programme management
1:36
professionals, but kind of no one pulling it all together and
1:40
defining the single way for Babcock to move forwards.
1:44
Gosh, that's that's a lot of people to be working without a
1:47
kind of leader. Yeah, absolutely.
1:49
Absolutely, Yeah, so, so, so they've all got individual
1:52
business leaders. Obviously, as we, as we know,
1:54
within project and programme management, they tend to go up
1:57
through their business lines. But really looking for the
1:59
synergies and the frameworks and how we think about competencies
2:04
and how we work across the organisation, kind of that free
2:08
flow of people and movement. Once you get anywhere near that
2:11
number of people, you get an awful lot of mobility and
2:14
people, people want to be able to get across the breadth of of
2:18
an organisation. So we just weren't capitalising
2:20
on it as much. So that was kind of what I came
2:23
in to start and do and obviously either done something really
2:27
well or really badly because it's expanded and I've now got
2:31
quite a few other functions as well.
2:33
So quite a quite a number of other functional groups
2:35
including kind of procurement, supply chain, IT which is quite
2:40
an interesting one, particularly from a project handling
2:42
perspective. Quality, which is always
2:46
fascinating to kind of get into the real sort of products, the
2:50
way that we run the business and also facilities management,
2:55
which is again something completely different.
2:58
But for me, I think the grounding in project management
3:02
is what absolutely sets a foundation for everything.
3:06
So as long as you've got that, that ability to understand and
3:09
question and pull apart what you're being told and what you
3:13
understand and kind of ask hopefully intelligent questions,
3:16
sometimes probably not so intelligent after the obvious
3:19
questions, I think you can pretty much turn your hand to
3:22
most things. Are you able to tell us a bit
3:25
about the kinds of projects or programmes you're working on at
3:28
the moment? So full range of projects and
3:31
programmes. So I spend a lot of time.
3:34
So I sponsor one of our major programmes at a dockyard down on
3:38
the South Coast. So it's spent get some
3:41
fascinating insights. I'm able to really sponsor them
3:45
because the project and programme management profession
3:49
and the customer are getting much more sort of intelligent
3:53
and understanding what a sponsor's really there for.
3:55
So that's fascinating because I get to work with the Royal Navy,
3:59
with some ship staff, with obviously the Babcock personnel
4:02
and a number of other professional industry
4:05
organisations. So that's more around the
4:09
programme sponsorship side of a major critical national
4:14
endeavour and then move into. So sometimes on ships, sometimes
4:20
on aircraft, sometimes in the the civil space.
4:24
But yeah, it's, it's, but you could probably think of
4:27
something and somewhere in the portfolio we'd cover it.
4:30
So Met Police training or the London Fire Brigade or some, you
4:35
know, there's a whole range of, of projects and programmes and
4:39
business areas that we, that we run and, and I'm in a fantastic
4:43
place to be able to kind of get involved in all of them.
4:47
What attracted you to Babcock when you first joined and what
4:51
have you enjoyed doing look forward to when you get up in
4:53
the morning? So I grew up in a military
4:56
family. Both of my parents were in were
4:59
in the services. So it's kind of the way that I
5:01
grew up in that way. I grew up moving around the
5:05
world with them and sometimes not moving with them when I went
5:08
off to off to boarding school for a little while just to
5:11
towards the latter part of my school years.
5:14
So I've spent my entire career, I'm merely working in the
5:18
defence business. So I spent 24 years working on
5:22
military aircraft before I made the decision to come over to
5:25
Babcock. But again, it's it's kind of all
5:29
in the same, along the same vein.
5:32
What is it about that world that you enjoy and that you've wanted
5:36
to kind of forge your career in? I would describe it a little bit
5:40
like project management. I think it's almost literally in
5:42
my DNA. So what Why do you know?
5:46
I grew up, I knew no different. I grew up moving about.
5:48
I grew up in a world where everyone was in service of, of
5:52
the, of the country and my kind of same as project management.
5:57
It's kind of in your DNA. It's just something that you
5:59
that I found that just really falls naturally and I feel
6:02
really privileged to be able to work in a defence organisation.
6:06
So, yeah, so, so I'm not sure I ever chose to do it.
6:10
I think I just kind of continued on from I guess a lot of people
6:14
do, don't they, they, you know, they follow in their, in the
6:17
footsteps of their, of their parents and their family and,
6:21
and mine is, is very different. So I never joined the services
6:25
but I do work, you know, within, within the UK defence.
6:29
How did you get into project management?
6:31
Did you always wanted to be want to become a project manager?
6:34
I hear very few people say they that's their dream.
6:38
That's kind of what I mean when I say I think it's part of your
6:40
DNA. So I joined, I joined a company
6:43
and do you know the moment I remember being asked to go into
6:47
project management. I don't think project management
6:49
was particularly big or sexy at all at the time.
6:55
So it was probably it was 25 years plus ago.
6:59
If we if we start there. And I just remember having some
7:03
challenges between the customer, the contract and the, and the
7:06
production, the operations team and I just drew out a fairly
7:11
basic flow of work that we needed to do and just trying to
7:15
get pull everyone together and say this is the flow of the work
7:18
we need to do. Does everyone agree?
7:19
And suddenly I was the bee's knees of project management.
7:22
So it's that's kind of that's the first moment that I remember
7:27
someone saying to me to almost do you want to move into project
7:30
management? We don't.
7:31
We've kind of got a few people who are project managers, but it
7:36
is an area that we really want to grow.
7:39
And so I obviously jumped to the chance because the ability to
7:43
have a high level view of lots and lots of different complex
7:48
projects, programmes, people. So I've always worked in a, in a
7:52
big engineering organisations. So the ability to kind of stay
7:59
at surface level but understand what it is and how you pull it
8:03
all together just always really interested me.
8:05
And I think it's just just kind of growing from there.
8:08
I wanted to ask you about the challenges that you face and the
8:11
work that you do and that you obviously enjoy getting to grips
8:14
with, and inevitably one of those things must be complexity.
8:19
I think the whole point of project management is to
8:22
overcome the complexity. I'm a massive believer in
8:25
simplification, so if I can't describe something in the
8:29
simplest possible way for whoever I'm talking to to
8:33
understand, it probably means I haven't quite unpicked it enough
8:36
to be able to describe it. So I probably go the absolute
8:40
opposite way to to other people where I look for the simplest
8:45
possible version and the simplest way of understanding
8:49
something. Because I think you can really
8:51
get under the skin of complex problems and stitch things
8:55
together. Not not trying to do any
8:59
discredit to complex situations, but just trying to say what is
9:04
the simplest way that we can think about this?
9:06
Because the simpler we can make things, the more people
9:10
understand and therefore the more you can get behind the
9:12
cause and the more you can get people kind of pointing in the
9:15
right direction. Which personally I think is the
9:17
biggest challenge of project management is how do you get,
9:22
you know, huge projects and programmes where we can be
9:25
working on projects and programmes with, you know,
9:27
thousands of people. How do you get them to
9:30
understand in the simplest possible way?
9:33
Sometimes it is by describing things in the simplest possible
9:36
way. So, so that's how I have always
9:40
addressed things and tried to think about complex issues and
9:44
complex programmes whilst respecting and really trying to
9:50
unpick the specialisms. Because there's no doubt that
9:53
there's huge complexities, but it doesn't mean that everyone in
9:57
in the project or programme or the organisation has to
10:00
understand them in in a level of detail.
10:02
So how do you pull it apart enough that people understand
10:06
point in the right direction, but you still allow space for
10:09
the specialist to really kind of drive their technical or their
10:14
commercial or whatever, whatever specialism it is to allow them
10:18
to drive forwards? Have you got any advice to
10:22
anyone who might be listening who thinks you know what?
10:25
I want to try and make the way I talk about projects to my team
10:29
simpler? What have you picked up along
10:31
the way? I think honesty and humility is
10:36
just really underrated. So to be able to say somewhat to
10:40
somebody, I really respect your detailed subject matter
10:46
knowledge, but actually that is your role and my role's
10:51
different. My role is to be able to stitch
10:54
and pull together an organisation or a project or
10:57
programme so that we enable you and actually the level of
11:02
conversation that we're having or the depth of the conversation
11:05
or the acronyms that you're using.
11:07
We, I live in a heavy acronym world and you can get to the end
11:11
of a presentation and think, if I were an outsider, I'm not sure
11:14
I would have understood any of that.
11:17
If we can just respect the position of each of the people
11:21
in the team, but have them respect kind of what your role
11:25
is, I think that's a massive learning point for for the
11:28
project. That would be what I would say
11:31
to all kind of project management professionals,
11:35
respect the SME's. Don't try and be the SME.
11:37
You don't have to be the engineer or the commercial
11:40
contract manager. You need all of those people,
11:43
but you actually need simplification.
11:45
You need to get under the skin event.
11:46
So being able to say, quite honestly, thank you, but we need
11:50
to raise this up a level because this is this is kind of your,
11:54
your responsibility rather than mine.
11:56
And I'm here to enable you. But that means I have to
11:58
understand it and I have to be able to get that message across
12:02
to everybody. Are there any other challenges
12:04
that you regularly face in your work that you think you've
12:07
learned a lot about how to deal with well that you could pass
12:11
some advice on? Maybe on the people's side of
12:14
things, perhaps. I love getting into an
12:17
organisation and finding those secret little ninjas that are in
12:23
the organisation that are almost buried.
12:26
And I think the ability to step back and recognise not everyone
12:33
has to go up a classical kind of hierarchical step by step route.
12:37
Sometimes there are people for whatever reason who are buried
12:41
in the organisation who are ready to be picked out and and
12:45
kind of elevated really quickly. And I, I did that in one of one
12:49
of the most complex programmes I've ever worked in and run.
12:53
It was an aerospace defence contract with multiple customers
13:00
right at the time where the 737 Max incidents were happening.
13:05
And obviously, you know, horrendous outcome.
13:09
So we were dealing with a couple of organisations who were
13:12
directly involved and directly related with that.
13:15
So you've got an organisation who are already quite concerned
13:19
and quite anxious and obviously dealing with things that none of
13:23
us would ever want to deal with. But I, I picked up that
13:27
programme when actually, and it's, it's one of my, I think
13:31
now pivotal moments in my career.
13:33
So my boss at the time had said to me, I'd really like you to
13:38
run this programme. And at the time I was running a
13:41
portfolio, I was absolutely loving my job had multiple kind
13:46
of Tier 1 aerospace customers and I kind of, and everyone
13:51
who'd been in this programme had had not finished it very well
13:55
and it kind of there, they'd had a really, really tough time.
13:58
So I said, thank you for the opportunity, but I'm good, I'm
14:02
going to stick here. So he asked me twice and I said
14:06
no both times. And now I remember so clearly.
14:10
He sat down in my office. He said, I've asked you twice
14:14
and now I'm telling you. And I thought, OK, right then
14:18
that's what that's what's coming next.
14:21
But it's it's probably one of my biggest lessons is sometimes
14:27
opportunities come even if you don't see it as an opportunity.
14:31
So I didn't want that role. I was in a fantastic world.
14:35
I was loving my job. I was loving the team that I was
14:37
working with all the way through the customer, the supply chain.
14:41
But I was this moment of no, we need you to go and do this.
14:46
That I thought at that moment was pretty catastrophic,
14:50
actually became one of my proudest moments and one of my
14:52
pivotal moments. And to be honest, I wouldn't be
14:55
at Babcock now if it wasn't for that because the level of
14:58
confidence that it gave me, having said no and then and then
15:04
moving into a role and rebuilding basically a
15:07
completely fractured team, none of whom wanted to be in that
15:11
programme. Really, really tough
15:13
relationships internally and with the customer and just being
15:17
able to kind of find those superstars that are hidden in in
15:21
that organisation, being able to pull them out, restructure and
15:26
then drive the programme forwards with that kind of let's
15:29
simplify it. Let's all be able to talk in
15:32
this in a similar way. Let's be able to point in the
15:35
same direction because fundamentally, what do we all
15:38
want? We want this programme to end.
15:40
So let's drive it to the end. And it was just from a moment of
15:44
saying thank you, but I really don't want that to, OK, that's
15:48
the direction we're travelling in and, and grabbing hold of it
15:51
and saying if this is the direction we're going, that's
15:53
what we're going to do. Do you think that was the lesson
15:56
in going beyond your comfort zone so someone knew you well
15:59
enough to push you and say yes, you can do that?
16:02
100 percent, 100% and it all it was also a lesson in I think it
16:08
was a lesson in saying no initially, to be honest, because
16:11
I'm not sure at any point I had previously said thank you very
16:15
much, but I'm I that programme doesn't feel right for me.
16:18
I. Mean.
16:19
That's a brave thing to do. That's a brave thing to say to
16:21
your boss. No, I don't want you to do what
16:24
you. Do but so yes, exactly.
16:28
I think the point is you can say no, you don't have to take every
16:32
opportunity. But if it gets to a point where
16:35
the business needs you to take a role or to go in a direction, my
16:40
advice would be at that point, go for it because you never
16:44
know. All of the reasons I didn't want
16:47
to take that role. Actually, I now look back on and
16:50
think, wow, they were either confidence building or pivotal
16:54
moments in my career to the point where when, when that
16:58
programme did end, which which took three years for us to take
17:03
that programme over the line. The number of people who still
17:06
say today I really miss that programme, but what they miss is
17:11
the team spirit of it because we were just able to turn and
17:15
direct and really drive it all in the same way.
17:18
Yes, I get that. It must have been quite.
17:20
I mean, it must have been very daunting, but exciting as well.
17:24
So it was daunting, but it also also, I guess, I guess it was
17:27
quite flattering if I'm just really honest, because you go
17:30
right, OK, Someone has actually actively not not only asked me,
17:35
but now told me that this role that I'm going to be doing, so
17:39
they must have great confidence in my ability to do it.
17:42
So all of that kind of, I actually don't necessarily agree
17:47
with imposter syndrome, but all of that kind of concern in your
17:50
head, just you're able to switch off and say I wouldn't be doing
17:54
this role if this person, this organisation didn't believe I
17:59
could do it. I wanted to ask you about the
18:02
style of leadership you have as a programme leader.
18:05
Have you consciously cultivate the style of leadership, or have
18:12
you just found yourself leading in a natural way for you?
18:15
What? What?
18:16
What way would that be? I think probably more the latter
18:20
because do you think you have to be honest to yourself?
18:23
I remember quite early in my career, someone said you're not
18:27
hard enough, you're not direct enough, You're not, you know,
18:30
they would describe it as holding people to account.
18:33
I think what they meant when I look back, it's kind of shouty
18:37
and direct and everything that I'm not.
18:41
So, so I remember for about a month trying to be someone
18:47
really different to who I am. And I got to the end of the
18:51
month because it was really conscious.
18:53
Right. OK, I'll take the advice.
18:56
And I was, I was a project manager.
18:57
I was managing around about 50 engineers at the time.
19:01
I'll take the advice. I'll think about how I show up
19:06
every day, and I do remember being this kind of really
19:09
direct, really almost forceful, loud person for about for a
19:17
month, which was what I'd set myself to really test it.
19:20
I got to the end of that month and I just thought, even if this
19:24
is working, I am utterly miserable because it's not me.
19:29
And from that moment and it was quite an early career learning
19:33
for me and and I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but for me
19:36
personally, it didn't, it didn't work.
19:39
So I've always found that just like if someone shouts at me, if
19:43
someone kind of directs me and tells me, tells me what to do
19:49
rather than kind of seeks opinion or I've no issue with
19:53
being direct. But there's a different way in
19:57
style. And I think certainly for
19:59
project management, your job is to get the best out of people.
20:02
And you don't tend to get the best out of people if, if you
20:05
are forceful direct, if you're always telling them what to do,
20:09
there's only a certain number of people who like that style.
20:12
So I've just, I think I've more naturally moved to what what's
20:17
core to me, but I have tested it along the way and found that
20:21
certainly other styles don't necessarily suit me.
20:25
We're APM, the only chartered membership organisation for the
20:29
project profession. When you become an APM member,
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you'll receive the resources and support you need to make an
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impact, delivering better projects with better outcomes.
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Plus, you'll access exclusive training and benefits to support
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your ongoing career development. Find out how we can help you
20:45
reach your potential by visiting apm.org.uk.
20:50
Because when projects succeed, society benefits.
20:55
I wanted to ask you what have been the biggest lessons around
20:59
the actual execution projects, so project management side of
21:03
things that you've learned as you've climbed up the ladder
21:06
that you wish you'd told a younger version of yourself?
21:10
So I think the first would be trust the data, build the data,
21:15
trust the data. So I know so through lots of
21:19
different psychometric profiles that I've had the pleasure of
21:22
doing over the years, I know that in certain situations I, I
21:28
can be pretty decisive, I can move very quickly, but in a, in
21:34
a really, really difficult situation, I tend to move
21:37
straight back to the centre and go into data.
21:39
So as long as you're measuring and monitoring and appropriately
21:45
and correctly it, it's, it's got no reason to lie, It's not lying
21:49
to you. So if something under the
21:50
surface is telling you that there is an issue, there's a
21:54
problem. You do need to dig into it.
21:57
So I'd say trust the data and secondly, don't put it off.
22:01
It is, it is not going to get any better by ignoring it or by
22:05
putting it off. And sometimes that comes into
22:08
the prioritisation. So we do an awful lot with
22:11
rocks, pebbles, sand. So we fill our time with sand,
22:14
which is kind of the day-to-day stuff that just has to be done.
22:18
But if you start with that, you've got no time left really
22:22
to drive the rocks. The big strategic changes that
22:27
you need to get into your programme, into your project,
22:30
into your business. What's your next ambition for
22:33
your career? Or do you have a dream job
22:36
you're willing to share with us? Do I have a dream job?
22:40
So I've maybe controversially, I've always just, I've never had
22:47
a career plan as it were like within two years I want to be
22:51
this, within five years I want to be that.
22:53
I think I've, I've always just believed if you work hard and
22:58
you're kind of true to the core of you and you've got great
23:03
sponsorship and allyship, then certainly what I've found is
23:10
that opportunities come up and they might not, they might not
23:14
appear to be opportunities. So I did 24 years at my last
23:18
organisation and was probably no doubt classified as a lifer, but
23:24
an opportunity came up to move and to move over to over to
23:29
Babcock. And I think it, it's, that was
23:33
less of a choice at that moment. It was just in that moment in
23:36
time, an opportunity came and kind of decide whether or not
23:39
that's the right, the right chance to take for you.
23:45
So picking up, I mean, person picking up IT and procurement
23:48
and supply chain and some of the other kind of aspects and
23:52
strings that I've now got within My Portfolio of delivery.
23:56
And would they have been on a career plan for me?
23:59
No, but what's happened is it it kind of stabilise and and get do
24:05
something really, really well and then more, more
24:08
opportunities come along. So I think being kind of
24:11
flexible and open to take them has been the way that I've kind
24:15
of gone through my career as opposed to a quite a set
24:19
direction of travel. So do I have the next stream
24:22
job? I generally like to think that
24:26
my, my job at the moment, whatever it is, if I do it
24:31
exceptionally well, if I really drive into it, then the next
24:35
dream job will come up. So it's, it's quite a difficult
24:39
one to answer without a really direct statement, but that
24:43
that's how I found, that's how I found my career kind of
24:46
progress. Is there anything else you
24:50
wanted to mention before we finish?
24:52
Any bits of advice you pass on to maybe people just starting
24:56
out in their careers in project management or anything else you
24:59
wanted to raise? I think people starting out in
25:02
their careers in project management, I think my biggest
25:04
piece of advice would be maybe a little cautious here actually in
25:09
my advice, don't be so fixated on moving quickly.
25:15
Because actually what I don't think people want to do is move
25:19
so quickly that they don't learn the lessons along the way.
25:22
Because you'll get to a certain level in your career where you
25:25
can't backfill that knowledge and that and that level of
25:28
experience. So certainly the way project
25:31
controls are moving and the and the measures that we put in
25:35
place around and around project controls really get under the
25:40
skin of that and understand it truly before you, before you
25:44
want to drive on and drive forwards.
25:45
It's great picking up bigger programmes, but that grounding
25:49
is so important. So that would probably be my
25:53
cautious but my advice. Listen, dykes.
25:58
So it's such a pleasure listening, chatting with you and
26:02
getting your advice and understanding a bit about how
26:05
you've got to where you, you have.
26:07
And you know, it's, it's really important when we get time with
26:11
people at your level as well to understand the kind of
26:15
challenges you face and how you've overcome them.
26:17
And also it's evident to me how much you enjoy your work.
26:21
So that's always lovely to hear. It just leads me to say big,
26:25
massive thank you for your time. It's been brilliant talking to
26:28
you. And you thank you very much for
26:30
your time. Thanks again to Donna for
26:41
joining us and to you for listening to the APM Podcast.
26:45
I hope you'll be able to take something useful from our
26:47
conversation that will help you in your own career, whether it's
26:50
finding a way to ditch the jargon or feeling like you can
26:53
step into a room and own it anyway.
26:56
Don't forget to look out for more episodes or to rate and
26:58
review it Wherever you get your podcasts.
27:01
We'd welcome you to get in touch with your comments, feedback and
27:04
suggestions by emailing us at apmpodcast@thinkpublishing.co.uk.
27:11
This podcast has been brought to you by APM, the childhood body
27:14
for the project profession. For more information on APM,
27:18
visit apm.org.uk.