Latest / Financial Planner Life Podcast / Simon Parfitt - Fee Based, Life Centred Financial Planning in Hong Kong

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Simon Parfitt - Fee Based, Life Centred Financial Planning in Hong Kong · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, and welcome to the Financial Planner Life Podcast, where we talk to professionals at varying stages in their career about what it's like working in the wonderful world of financial planning and financial advice.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is proudly sponsored by Recruit UK, a recruitment consultancy specifically focused on the financial services.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: They have a niche specialism, recruiting, within the financial planning industry.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: So check out their website for the latest job opportunities, hints and tips, and blog articles.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Today's guest is Simon Parfitt, and Simon is a financial planner and he set up a company called Piermont Wealth Management.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: And he is one of the very early adopters of fee-based financial advice in the offshore market and especially in Hong Kong, where only a handful of people today are doing this.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: We also talk about life-centered financial planning.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Again, very early adopter, and he is the only person in Hong Kong offering life-centered financial planning.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: So we find out what that is and the benefits to the clients and the opportunities available to financial planners in Hong Kong around this area of expertise.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: We also talk to him about his career to date, what it's like working in Hong Kong, the highs and lows of being an offshore financial advisor, the earning potential, and loads of other stuff.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope you enjoy today's episode and get in contact with me if you're interested in joining Simon in Hong Kong.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Cheers.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: So hi Simon, thanks for joining me today, uh, all the way from Hong Kong on the Financial Planner Live podcast.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um how are you?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_01: Great, no, very well.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: No worries, not no problem at all.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: How's um how's life in Hong Kong during um during COVID-19?
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, it's been a bit of a strange time in Hong Kong because prior to the virus happening, we also have us had a space of protests.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we've been lucky because with Hong Kong having experienced SARS before, everybody was quite quick to adapt.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so actually we haven't had as many restrictions as other places.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's been business as normal on the most part, more Zoom meetings, um, yeah, a little bit more stuff by distance, but on the whole, it's been business as usual, which is quite lucky.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: All right, okay, so not massively being affected.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: So are you still seeing clients on a face-to-face basis?
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or is it mainly sort of video linked?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yep, still seeing clients um uh face-to-face.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think what this has proven is the ability to do advice virtually and that you can still sort of retain a good level of service and a good relationship with people.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but actually I was saying to somebody earlier today, it's now people are you know quite happy, uh far more happy to come in and see us and for us to go and see them.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas, yeah, maybe towards the beginning it was all you know, zoom, zoom, zoom.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: So uh no, it's uh it's good.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Fabulous.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, great.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone's healthy in your family and everything like that, no one's been affected.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I mean that's a strange thing, is in Hong Kong, I think we've had four deaths in full stop, which is often incredibly low number.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it was only actually I've had two clients who have unfortunately had relatives pass away from it, and that's what sort of brings it a little bit closer to home.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, no, I mean, luckily, touch wood, my family are okay, thank you.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: But um, no, it's obviously a very serious, uh, very serious matter.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Are they still doing any protests or anything during this period, or have they sort of been told just do they have the common sense not to all get together?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: In the UK, everybody everyone's protesting at the moment, aren't they, and around the world?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: There was no protest, but actually we've had a we've had a little bit happen again.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you may have seen about the national security law that was being passed or proposed to be passed by China, and that wasn't sort of very well received.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a few small protests that happened again since then.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but no, I mean, fortunately it's uh it's quite calm now.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Fabulous.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so Simon, you're a um you're a financial planner, and um as we've established, you're based out in Hong Kong.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you're one of the one of the guys that decided to go and work offshore as opposed to work in the UK.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and today it's about really finding out a bit about your journey, your career um working offshore, why you chose that, the the highs, the lows of it, the realities of it, and with an aim really to to give our listeners an idea of um, as we said, the realities of working offshore as a financial planner, the struggles and the challenges that you might come against, and um, and also why people perhaps should consider going out there and why perhaps your company, PM on Wealth Management, would be a great place for someone who wants to work in Hong Kong, for instance.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: What one of the questions I always like to start with really is to understand your journey getting into financial planning, because especially in the UK, some some people find it quite difficult to get into a role of a financial planner.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really interested to understand your career path into financial advice.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: So, how did you get into financial planning?
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I think like a lot of people, it found me rather than sort of me actually looking for it.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um I didn't ever go to university, and from school, I actually was working for a telecoms company, a very successful telecoms company that was selling uh telephone systems to offices.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And a colleague of mine that was also very good at it, he was the sales director of that company, um, through a friend of his that was with DeVere in Singapore.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, he suddenly was offered this opportunity.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And and I think about a year before I got involved, he was out in in Singapore, you know, the photos looked great, the lifestyle sounded fabulous, the earning potential of what he was doing was was obviously very good.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so he actually got in touch with me and said, you know, this is the sort of thing that you should be considering.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and then actually I did a bit of research and decided, well, the company that he had joined maybe wasn't the one for me.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think at that time, you know, I was 23 or 24 years old.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Going to Asia would have been that one step too far, probably.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, and in doing some research, I actually had a chance encounter with um a guy I knew from that uh uh telecoms background who put me in touch with Guardian wealth management.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um the Chap Murray was actually Guardian's recruitment, internal sort of recruitment and a bit of HR at that time, and uh yeah, that's sort of how it came about.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, it was a very different time back then, I think.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the industries evolved a lot, you know.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: We had very little training, it was uh um, you know, the the sort of the fundamentals of offshore sort of financial planning, so to speak, and that was it thrown in at the deep end.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I did a uh like a one-week induction course um that was based in Doncaster, sunny Doncaster.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'd always recommend if you're in the north of England, go to Agra for a hurry, and uh and in fact I didn't know where I was going until the end of that week.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I knew it was going to be somewhere in Europe, um, and I think I was offered to go to either Zurich or to go to Amsterdam, and as a you know, 24-year-old guy, I um chose Amsterdam.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Not that that's commercially the most sensible decision, but I don't think I was making decisions that way at that time.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, sort of a couple of weeks later, I um I found myself in Amsterdam with two bags of clothes and a mobile phone, knowing that I now provided financial planning to well, it wasn't financial planning, that's one step too far.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: I knew that I was selling financial products to expats, and yeah, off we went.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: So bit of a baptism of fire, really.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so again, you know, classic example of what I would always assume tends to be the type of person that goes and works offshore is somebody who's who's quite young, tends to be male, um and they are usually drawn in by um the lifestyle that it looks like working offshore can provide, plus the high earning potential as as well.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: And as you mentioned, your friend there was working for DeVere.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: You explored that option, found it wasn't quite right for you, ended up meeting up and speaking to somebody from Guardian Wealth Management.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: And then so you went through the interview process with Guardian.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now you were 23 years old.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: How old are you now?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh 37, nearly 38.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I assume back then that must have been the job you went in to do with Guardian, where you had your week-long induction over was it Doncaster, did you say?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Doncaster, yeah.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: Were you being paid for that?
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_00: Was that like, did you was this a self-employed option or was it an employed option?
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because most of them back then were definitely self-employed, weren't they?
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, all self-employed, all commission only.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, uh but I mean, the strange thing is from the age of 17, I had worked on a commission only basis anyway.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't really think anything of that.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, and actually, probably looking back, that's quite strange.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_01: But to me, that's the way that I'd already done it, so that's the way it was.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I think actually looking back in a lot of the early parts of my career in financial planning, that's how things were done at that time.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: And luckily, the model has broadly evolved.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's still, unfortunately, companies that haven't quite caught up to a better way of doing advice yet.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the way in which firms are hiring people has improved.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: I think the training which has been put in place has improved.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think unfortunately back then that because it was commission only, the reality is a lot of advisors were disposable, you know, and companies could throw as much against the wall to see what stuck.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: And if it didn't work out, well, they hadn't really lost anything.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: But I think actually there was a realization, even for Guardian that I was with, that that that approach wasn't sensible.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there was reputational damage.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: You did get the, and not for Guardian necessarily, but I'm sure for them as well, um, that you did get a very high turnover of staff that was no good to anybody.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, if you wanted longevity in the business, then there had to be some sort of improvement.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean, the business today, and obviously I'm not with Guardian anymore, that's definitely um it's definitely changed.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because um, I mean, you mentioned there about your friend being at um at DeVere.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're a massive company and they've got offices worldwide, haven't they?
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um Guardian are a growing firm.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: They've now got offices that are situated in lots of different cities across across the world.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: And when you moved across to Guardian, you mentioned there you were working in Amsterdam.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: When you did you then move from Amsterdam to Hong Kong?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know the edits didn't obviously that's how we know each other, is that I got in contact with you when you were working in in Guardian.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: So talk to me about that transition.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: So you obviously went in, self-employed, 23 years old, right?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Completely commission-based only, over in Amsterdam, saying to me, Did you do quite well in Amsterdam?
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Did you, you know, to progress from Amsterdam to Hong Kong?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: What was the story there?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I mean, yeah, did did well, but it was it was still transactional, you know.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think at that time the model was this robbing Peter to PayPal, you know, you're selling products, you're making commission, the numbers are going up onto a sales leaderboard, you know, at the end of that year, somebody gets hailed a hero, somebody gets hailed a zero, and come January 1, it goes back to zero and sort of starts all over again.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, and I think it probably wasn't until, I mean, I was quite an early adopter within Guardian of a funds under advice sort of model.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: But we weren't doing that, I think, until about 2013, 2014.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in fact, you know, maybe yeah, 2013, I think it was just having arrived in Hong Kong that we started to sort of, you know, I I realized, or I'd come to the realisation at least, that there was a better way of doing things, something that was more sustainable.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, maybe I wasn't sort of day one getting those same big upfront commissions, but I was building something that had a much better value to me, a better value for the business that I was working for.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And also, of course, let's not forget the most important thing is it was better for clients as well.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: But sort of how I got to that point is that Guardian at that time, their footprint was predominantly European-based.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I was in Amsterdam, we had an office in Brussels, some in Switzerland, some in Spain, Germany, and um, they'd expanded out to Qatar, and then they said they wanted to open in Asia, and yeah, so I sort of threw my um hat in the ring, and uh yeah, and that's sort of how it came about, really.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I I'd never visited Hong Kong.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, and then I found myself January 2012 in Hong Kong and sort of in the same position.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I joined Guardian, we had no office, no clients, no prospective clients.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, I think there was something exciting about doing that again as well, but doing it from a position of greater sort of experience of just yeah, you know, getting stuck in an exciting, thriving, you know, energetic city, um, yeah, getting getting stuck in.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you've always been quite an entrepreneurial type person to work on a pure commission basis, you've got to be pretty damn sure that you're able to write business, but also have that inner motivation and inner drive to be to be a success, because no one's sort of handing you a paycheck every month for sitting on your ass, basically, are they?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that I think that even if you are entrepreneurial, there still is again the the I think the models evolved, and I and I acknowledge entirely that even for somebody that's experienced, getting a momentum and attraction and a an attraction is difficult.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that those that you know there's definitely been characters that have been sold that sort of dream of the streets being paved of gold and off you go, and that and you know, let's be honest, that is not the reality for the majority of people.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is still a difficult sort of job, but I think for people that are already experienced advisors, the thing that they bring is an additional level of credibility, you know, is that the the the the the and and this is where Hong Kong has evolved as well, you know, they banned indemnified commission in 2015, and I think that when you hear a lot of the stories of these really big numbers and even really big numbers on individual deals, that is because of the types of products that were being sold.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: And these are products a la UK 1980s, UK 1990s that paid big upfront indemnified commissions.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And when that was banned in Hong Kong in 2015, there was certainly a bit of a clear out of some of the the people who couldn't evolve if they hadn't already evolved by that point.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, and I'm and I'm all for that.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's just that's just improving the market that we're operating in.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: When that when that happened, were you guys adopting that funds under advice model ongoing fee structure within Guardian wealth management?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Were you did you foresee that and therefore were prepared?
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, whilst other companies sort of perhaps lost a lot of advisers because they couldn't continue on the the the structure that they'd implemented around advice?
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: I I think I don't think I had the foresight.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think that would be being too kind.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think I just sort of um I think I just realized that there was a better way of delivering advice in general and actually taking big upfront commissions plus big ongoing commissions, well not big ongoing commissions, you know, just big upfront commissions and an ongoing fee wasn't a sustainable model and it wasn't very client-friendly.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And Hong Kong is an environment of sophisticated or more sophisticated investors.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, when I was in Amsterdam, and partly that would just have been my age and my credibility, the types of clients that I was dealing with on the whole were in a relatively similar situation to me.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that they were sort of starting their investment journeys, they were starting to save and think about doing stuff for their future.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and actually, in a market like Hong Kong, which is a predominantly legal and banking um centre, well, there's just a different type of expat, I uh I think.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, for me, the types of clients that I would see in Hong Kong, I would maybe see one of those sorts of clients in Europe or in Amsterdam once every month.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas in Amsterdam, in Hong Kong, I was seeing clients of that, you know, that higher calibre of investing opportunity every week.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: So then you're in a position where you don't need as many clients because actually you're getting better quality clients, which are you know you can then work with for the longer term as well.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't have the foresight of I didn't know that there was going to be a regulatory change, but I just believe there is a better way of doing it.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, we were two years into that sort of journey, and that certainly helped us because our cash flow wasn't sort of cut off.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we had that recurring income um coming in.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so predominantly, so obviously, over in Hong Kong, higher net worth client and more of them compared to say Amsterdam.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, what would be like the average investable assets of a typical client that you would deal with?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Hong Kong's quite a funny market, it's quite fragmented.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got it you've got a lot of private banks, but they're mainly focusing in that plus one million, and actually a nice sweet spot for us is as the private banks have been increasing their minimums to 3 million, 5 million, 10 million US dollars, there's now an under-service gap, which is a great sweet spot to sort of to fish in that$1 million plus um type of pond.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: So um Hong Kong is then dominated by insurance agents.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think at the last count there was 100,000 agents, and these are again mainly domestic market focused.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: They are working for AIA, prudential, manulife, they are selling some form of insurance product, and that's mainly also into the local market because the expats know they're tied agents and they want to have a variety of choice.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: So then in the sort of the expat focused market, there are um some companies that only have insurance licenses, and everything they do has to be facilitated through some form of insurance product, which is not wildly different to before 2015.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then there's companies like ours that also have a full asset management license, and that means that we've got a broader variety of products and solutions that we can offer, and that also means that we can then deal with um clients that have more investable assets because of the types of products that we can that we can offer them.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: So um uh I I would say that the majority of our clients would have at least sort of 250,000 US dollars of liquid assets to invest.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there is certainly a market of that the Henry clients, you know, the high earning, not rich yet, where let's not kid ourselves Hong Kong is an expensive city.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of people that earn well and have good disposable income, but they haven't actually accumulated that sort of asset base yet.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: But again, they're great, great clients to actually work with to build that relationship, and they can they can build an AUM for the business and become profitable clients um in quite a short period of of time.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: Never heard that before, Henry.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Or is it high earning not rich yet?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: Not rich yet.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: I've not I've never heard that.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: I've not like the what's the double income no kids dinks, isn't it?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Double income no no kids is one.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Never heard that.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's what we use, they're quite useful to find as well, yeah.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: So the predominantly then the types of clients that you're seeing out in Hong Kong, just imagine someone's listening to this and they're thinking, I want to go out to Hong Kong and I I want to I want to work in Hong Kong.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: So from a client perspective and building clients, are they looking at the locals?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Are they looking at uh expats?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: What are they expected to do?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: What's the easiest way or the most commercial way for them to start generating clients?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: What type of clients should they target in Hong Kong?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: So there is quite an interesting division, I think, in the advice market that you have those that almost entirely focus on the expat market and those that almost entirely focus in the local market.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: And part of that is still this sort of nuance that the domestic market is very transactional.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: It is, I've got some money to invest, it's quite short-termist.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's well, what can you get me in the next six months?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: What can you get me in the next year?
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Not really financial planning.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: And they don't mind the insurance uh products, hence, there's so many agents selling these products with great success.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually think there's a fantastic opportunity for Cantonese speakers that understand the virtues of proper financial planning where they can articulate that message.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because whilst I can articulate the message, I can't speak Cantonese, you know.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: So there's always going to be something which is is is lost.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a very interesting opportunity for somebody who who is already well versed in proper financial planning to come and kick the doors open and deliver that that model properly.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the one thing that Hong Kong is fantastic for is it um is for networking.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: It is an incredibly social place.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, in fact, when we turned up in Hong Kong, you know, I was getting in touch with people that I knew in the UK, getting in touch with clients that I already had in Amsterdam.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, I'm here in Hong Kong.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: Is there people you know that I could have a, you know, that I could just introduce myself to?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And immediately, um week one, we were, you know, again, lucky that I already had a client base in another country that could introduce me to people.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: But that certainly helped with getting the um, you know, getting the um the momentum.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think there's a sort of a funny misconception that Hong Kong is this urban jungle.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: It is, you know, it is an incredibly dense um.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Urban city.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we've got buildings of 90.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think the highest building in Hong Kong has 120 floors.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a bar on that 118th floor.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite bizarre, really.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also got hundreds of kilometres of hiking trails, it's got beaches, it's got lots of sports teams.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, people do dragon boating.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: I play rugby.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a real, I think there's a real sense of um of expat sort of camaraderie almost.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I lived in Amsterdam, it was mainly a European or a lot of a European demographic.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: So at the weekend, because Europe was so accessible, a lot of people would just go home.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: They would go back to where they came from.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: But I think in Hong Kong there is the commonality that everybody is often a long way from home.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I think people are more inclined to, you know, to help, to introduce, to refer.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it's a great networking place.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that certainly helps in terms of getting that momentum and getting stuck in.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: And not only if you for the fact that if you are a long way from home, it's nice to be able to meet people that have common interests that you can build, you know, friendships with as well.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think as well, when when I hear the word expat, I think expat being like people from the UK who are living in Hong Kong.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean Hong Kong's perfectly situated with a lot of westernized countries there, as well.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, likes of Australia, for example.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and it is a kind of international place, isn't it?
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so when you're giving and let's get our head around this, because you're now at Piemont, right?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: You join Piemont, and we'll and we'll we'll talk about that in a minute and why you join there and what it's all about and everything.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to understand and establish, so someone else, someone's listening to this, the types of clients that they can target.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we understood there, like it's very international, we've got lots of people there, everyone socializes, it's got a hub.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: So networking and building relationships isn't a major issue.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: You've got, you know, high-earning, not rich yet type clients to go after.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: You've got the private banks that aren't seeing clients with anything below below a million quid.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lovely pool uh to tap into in respect to those client opportunities.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you can kind of build relationships with people in banks as well and get referrals and all that kind of stuff.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: So definitely there is a an opportunity to make money with clients there.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's there's there's stuff going on.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Those clients, even I think when I think expat, I think used to live in the UK, but is that right?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_00: Are you seeing just UK-based clients or are you seeing clients from lots of different types of countries?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: And do you have to have a specific license to be able to advise people from these different countries?
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think part of that is just a natural client segmentation process and also the you know, I you uh of how you want to build your book of business.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that there's not necessarily a right or wrong answer with that.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I was young and starting, I was obviously happy to deal with anybody because they were clients, and that was a way of me generating sort of revenue.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you certainly reach a point in time, as with you, as you would in the UK, when you want to be able to segment your clients, you want to work with clients that are like-minded, you want to work with clients where there's some sort of commonality.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, the majority of my clients are British or would have some connection to the to the UK.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of my clients work in banking, law, um, uh senior HR roles, a few in logistics, um, not that's probably uh the core investment management as well.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I think so.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: We we also probably have a slightly upside-down demographic in that in a lot of um, I think a lot of financial advisors go after the retiree set.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, actually in Hong Kong, not that many people normally retire in Hong Kong.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: People might live here for many years, for decades.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've got several clients that have been here for 20, 30 years, but most of them build their wealth in Hong Kong and then go back to somewhere else or maybe somewhere else in Asia.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so yes, I think that what we have ended up focusing on is the British and Australian communities predominantly, because my partner's Australian, uh my business partner's Australian Chinese.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that's just where we have an immediate connection.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's actually proper financial planning that can be done.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think that with some of these nationalities where there is a limited amount of bona fide planning that can be done that you can really add value to, I just don't have an interest in those sorts of clients personally.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: And some people might tell me that's the wrong way of doing it, but I want to build clients where we can add real value to them and that we can build a very long-term working relationship, not just be selling them an investment for the sake of trying to make some fees, and then you know, at some point in time that breaks down and we, you know, we lose them.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's a real common misconception as well.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the more I'm speaking to good quality financial planners offshore, you know, such as yourself, I think there's a misconception that everybody's just out there flogging products.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that obviously goes on, as you said, of the insurance agents over there that are out there selling products, and and obviously there's a market for it because there's plenty of insurance agents that are that are actually doing it.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: But there is that misconception, I think, in the UK, perhaps based on previous experience or horror stories that people have come back, you know, uh from working over in Abu Dhabi or wherever, and um, you know, don't really have great things to say.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: They just feel it's like a stack it high, sell it cheap, well not sell it cheap, but sell it really expensive, you know, product pushing place, you know, with unethical investments.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: No one cares about the client relationships or anything along those lines.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: And with yourself, you know, when you were at Guardian and you were adopting that funds under management um under advice proposition and building out the ongoing advice model for expact clients, there you must not have a huge amount of competition out there then in that respect.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: There can't be that many people that are offering, you know, that structure of ongoing advice and charging ongoing fees.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have a battle with clients in the early stages to get them to buy into that uh style of advice and and and fee arrangement?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Not no, because of the experience that a lot of them had had prior to that with the sort of indemnified commission insurance product.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think people on the whole were quite welcoming about fee-based advice.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we are one of a handful of fee-based advice companies.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think prior to us doing it, there were probably only two or three, you know.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, and and there is still an educational process.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's still people that don't understand why I am paying for advice.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if you're getting something for free, what do you get?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you don't normally get anything.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_01: There is always some form of hidden motivation, which is, you know, if you're a financial advisor, that's normally that you want them to be investing with you, you'll try and hook them in in some way, because the end goal is to sell them something.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: So, actually, how our process has also evolved is charging fees for the financial planning advice, irrespective of whether or not they engage us any further, so that they receive objective financial planning, and of course, the majority of people then engage us to execute that plan thereafter.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: But we're still one of a handful of companies in Hong Kong that do it.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: There is still a lot of companies that hold on to the old way of doing things whilst they can.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: They still can receive those commissions.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Some of them have, you know, some of them have um ended up going into property sales, some of them have gone into some horrendous things like hydroponic farming in the desert and of being called out because, hey, who knows that wasn't um legitimate.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, who would have thought that, right?
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think some, you know, and and so there is a division, but again, to me that's a good thing because there's still this fantastic market of clients.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: And as long as we keep doing a good job, and as long as we keep doing, as long as we keep um, you know, developing this model which is entirely client-focused, we will build a really good business.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: But I think the challenge with Hong Kong is still that if you're a UK advisor, we're a long way from home.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we're a 12-hour, we're a top 12-hour flight away.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember when I was at Guardian and we would hold these open days in in London and a nice hotel, and and at that time we didn't know, you know, we were recruiting for everywhere.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: It was while you're in London, you can either go to Switzerland, which is an hour away, you can go to Dubai where the streets are paved with gold, it's tax-free and it's sunny all year round, or you can go to you can go and see Simon in Hong Kong.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: He's 12 hours away, the market's becoming more and more restricted.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's quite nice out there, you know.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that the the type of advisor that comes to Hong Kong is coming because of they are probably already established in some way, or they want to be delivering proper financial planning.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: They see financial planning as a career rather than just as a short-term, I'm going to move away for a couple of years, earn a bit of bucks, bank it, and then and then um, you know, and then come home.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: And or it's those that have an interest in Asia because Asia is a fantastically exciting place to be.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think when I first came to Hong Kong, that was a thing that got me is I'd I'd lived in Amsterdam, I'd started during the GFC, or not long before the GFC.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: We'd lived through these sort of dark and somber times, a period of you know economic uncertainty, employment uncertainty, and then you get to Hong Kong where just things happen.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's a just a general excitement in businesses we're recruiting people, and it's just there's energy, and that's quite an exciting sort of environment um to be in.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: And of course, it's good for business because there's always this influx of potential clients and and and people that we can be helping.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Fabulous.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so great.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: So you had a good stint at uh you had a good stint at Guardian, didn't you?
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you did well there, became like the the director of the Guardian um uh branch, basically.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: You want to call it a branch or business or uh yeah, you were the manager there, so you built that up and everything.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then at that point, though, you decided to to to become to move on.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you decided to move on from Guardian, and you ended up joining or setting up or being part of the creation of Piemont.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: So just talk to me how that came about.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: Why, you know, what what why did you become part of Piemont Wealth Management?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it was 2015.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Guardian had become quite a Middle Eastern focused uh business.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: At one point in time, there was a push to move me to Abu Dhabi, and I and I didn't want to uh I didn't want to go there.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they wanted me to set up the office there.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I was very settled in Hong Kong.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: They loved the Hong Kong, um, the Hong Kong market.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I'd already become quite interested in lifestyle financial planning.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'd done some um a little bit of coaching with a chap called Paul Armson, who's quite well known in the UK financial planning scene.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, there was a fantastic conference last week, Life Summit, which is you can watch the replays of it.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's some fantastic sort of talks.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and I think I just reached a cross point where I was doing the fee-based model, I was starting to do the fee-based model.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I was into that by then.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: I was looking at lifestyle financial planning, and I think because I was out of sight and out of mind, they just let me get on with it.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: But I was certainly, I it was just sort of I was moving in a different direction.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I just decided, well, this isn't really how I'm going to be able to progress and really develop the model that I like in the way that I could sort of see that um developing.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Donald, my partner, who's a uh you know, 20-year financial planning veteran, he's Australian Chinese, he spent seven years in the advice market in Singapore as well.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: He had the licenses.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we already had the asset management license, we had a securities advice license, and had an insurance license, but he wasn't actually using them for financial planning at that time.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, to be honest with you, my opening gambit to him was I would just like to be an AR under you, you know, be an appointed representative.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'd sort of had my fill of running an office and the trials and tribulations that sort of come with that.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: I basically just wanted to do my own thing, look after my clients, find more clients, and have a nice, easy life.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_01: And there was a third chap that was also interested in getting involved, an Australian multifamily office uh um guy that was building his own business.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and so Donald said, Well, he's Mark's also encrypted, let's have a chat.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the three of us started having a discussion.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: We decided that actually Mark wasn't quite as well aligned as we were.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: So then Donald and I came to the conclusion, well, hey, let's build this new sort of financial planning business together.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, at that point in time, we rebranded his company that was called Orb Global Wealth Management.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_01: We rebranded that to Piemont Wealth Management, really just as a reflection of what we were doing in sort of starting from scratch.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it was an established business, yes, it had the licenses, but no clients.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: I brought all of my clients with me from Guardian and um yeah, and off we and off we went really.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Off you went.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: So again, you know, he had that sort of um that drive yourself to be able to create something on your own, and initially thinking that, okay, well, I've been running a business, I've been running running it for somebody else.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and essentially thought you want, you know, you want to build your own business.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, initially thinking that AR route would be quite good for you, but then recognising that they had the licenses in place, weren't using it, and that you could help build that side of the business, become a partner within it and grow it up.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what's interesting in there as well is that you you when you were at Guardian, you you'd obviously built your client relationships up and then you transferred those client relationships across from Guardian across to Piemont.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: In the UK, there are certain levels of restricted covenants in place around sort of say employed advisors where you can't, you know, uh solicit or anything like that clients and bring them across usually within the first 12 months unless there's like a legal agreement in place.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: And when they're self-employed, slightly different contractual basis.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: But was that because you were self-employed and the relationships were yours that you were able to then sort of just almost because in the UK you would just just change agencies and almost the income stream just moves over nice and easy.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is that kind of how it works out in Hong Kong as well?
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: Similar, similar way of doing it, or that that is how it happened for me.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: But to be honest, I was fortuno in that my split from from Guardian was amicable.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think that you know, I'd worked there for eight and a half years, um, you know, we'd had some great times, I'd like the people in Guardian.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: There was no sort of malice to what I was doing.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was just that, yeah, you know, I was I was sort of going in a different direction and I wanted to do things differently.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, in you know, in fairness, John Hasbury, who at that time, you know, was was the owner of Guardian, I think, um, yeah, he he I think he understood that really, and and that we'd almost just come to the end of what we were doing together.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And there had been some equity opportunities along the way with Guardian that I decided sort of weren't for me.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I think that my departure from Guardian, an increasingly uh uh um uh intensive regulatory regime in Hong Kong, probably guess they decided, well, actually, we're just gonna stay as a Middle Eastern focused and European focused business.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, I was quite lucky in my sort of departure that it was transfer of agency and nothing really, you know, nothing really changed.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, in my building of Premont, what I wanted to build was a business and an environment that I would want to work for, you know, that I could easily just have adopted the same model.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: But one of the things was I did have a little bit of a bug there about the split of of fees that it wasn't necessarily equitable in terms of the efforts that I was putting in versus what I was I was getting back.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, I wanted this sort of platform, and I say this to people that you know, what we're trying to build is a platform that everybody benefits from participating, but with a cohesive message so that we all benefit from what we're from what we're doing.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and also, you know, even things like we say to our advisors that contractually the clients belong to the advisor, because the reality is the relation the you know the advice is within the relationship, right?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're an advisor and you decide to leave Piemont, well, the clients are going to want to go with you if you've done a good job for them.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you haven't done a good job for them, well, that's your fault, and they will stay with with Piemont.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: But what's the point, even before we started and people are reviewing our contract saying, well, they're my clients?
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, they're our clients.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just an unnecessary because these things a lot of the time don't stand up if they were disputed anyway.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, let's not just get ourselves into that, you know, unnecessary predicament.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, okay, great stuff.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's talk about Piermont then.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: So Piermont's now set up.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: You've been how long have you been at Piemont for running that?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: So since January 2016, I think was my sort of uh start date.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Since January 2016, okay.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you got stuck into that.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, going from Guardian, where you've got the people in the background supporting you, marketing, all those typical types of things you get used to when you've got a larger company, how different was it, you know, from moving from Guardian over to Piermont?
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: What were the realities of then setting up your own business?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think because I had an existing client base, it was probably easier than obviously somebody starting, well, not probably, it was almost definitely easier than starting from from scratch.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, at that time, very shortly after, we decided that we weren't going to be doing any cold calling or cold prospecting.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was lucky that a lot of my uh business did come through networking, doing seminars, doing events, through uh referrals and introductions as well.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Not so much through the professional introducer space, that's still something which we're sort of you know cracking the door.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's definitely something we've built good momentum in now, but we didn't sort of have that at the at the beginning.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I think the motivation at that time wasn't and still isn't now.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're not trying to build the world's biggest financial planning company.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: What we're trying to build is a great financial planning company that provides brilliant, you know, really deep value to clients and is known for doing that.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, often there is this sort of differentiation of offshore advisors and onshore advisors.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I understand there is a difference, of course, in the products and the solutions which are available to people, but I don't believe that the standard or quality of advice that somebody should be getting should be any different because they're living in Hong Kong rather than living in the UK.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: And just because I have the capacity to deliver advice in a slightly more, you know, in a looser way because you know, I don't have to disclose commissions or fees if I don't want to, but we do it fee-based and we do disclose what we're earning.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: We have a very transparent structure just because that is that's integrity, right?
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: That's doing the right thing when you don't have to, and that's how we will build a business that is known to be good, and that's how we will also hopefully attract the right sort of people to have a similar outlook to us in how they believe that advice should be delivered.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I I you know you mentioned there about lifestyle, financial planning, having a clear financial plan.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_00: So sitting down with the client and and going over a financial plan instead of just trying to shove a product in front of them, justifying then, I guess, the fee and ongoing fee arrangement as well.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: I guess reviews and things like that are done uh throughout the year.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: You you know, you're building those stronger relationships with the client.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: So um, are there many companies out there in Hong Kong that are offering lifestyle financial planning like Pier Montes?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, in short, no.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's probably, as I said, there's five or six companies that are fee-based.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I know that there's probably three companies that would include, for example, lifetime cash flow modelling as part of their advice process.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, I think that what we've tried to do and what I believe in, and there's sort of a movement which is also garnering momentum, is in life-centered financial planning, and that's about taking it that little bit further.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's about taking it deeper than goals-based advice.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, goals-based advice is important, but I think life-centered financial planning is really the best that you can be delivering financial planning advice.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, don't get me wrong, I believe this for two things.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: I believe this because of the value that it brings to clients, but I also believe in it for the commercial benefits that it brings to the business, in that this is not only if you if you're providing true deep value to clients, they will stay with you, they will work with you.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Even if the investments don't work out quite as according to plan, which is again why we also believe in evidence-based investing, and that's a separate sort of you know thing to touch on, is that the the value is what um keeps clients working with you.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: So there is obviously there is obviously a benefit to working in that in that way um as well, in terms of the longevity of of our of our client base.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: So that must be quite a nice say, let's say, for example, I'm a financial planner, I'm I'm I'm listening to this at the moment, I'm thinking about coming over to Hong Kong.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: First thing is like, you know, I'm I'm sort of getting to starting to understand from from talking to you is that you know you can come out to somewhere like Hong Kong and be a financial planner in the same way as you can in the UK if you are part of the right company.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: There are a lot of companies that aren't doing it.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: There are very few that are offering this fee based advice model, you being one of them.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: Now, what separates you as a company as well from your competitors that are out there offering fee based is that you're offering this life centered financial plan.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: planning, you know, this this level of service that nobody else in Hong Kong is is offering.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: So that ties in beautifully with with with with a lot with the way the way a lot of advisors are now moving in the UK is this kind of behavioral science, this kind of understanding the behaviors of the of the client, why they do what they want, you know, why they do what they do.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of advisors here in the UK also moving into that financial coaching as well.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: Coaching their their clients emotionally as well about how they invest, looking at the psychology of investing.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that you're adopting as well?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is that really what life-centered planning is about as well?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: Or absolutely so I'm I'm actually I'm a certified money coach.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm one of three in Hong Kong.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: I don't practice money coaching in the um in its pure sort of format of coaching um but I certainly use some of the things that we learnt in that process within our within our advice process.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're right that in the UK there's some people doing great work from a behavioural finance perspective.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: People like Andy Hart for example that are putting out great um you know resources into the public domain to try and encourage people to to develop people like Paul Armson there's a chap in the US called Mitch Anthony and actually that's how a lot of my interest in this sort of space has developed is that I like I I've got a I guess a hunger sometimes to my detriment because I I always fetter with things too much.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I want to keep evolving so that we stay ahead of the basics of what we have to do.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know I want to have a model which is fantastically well received by clients because that is of course stuff that they talk to people about.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: Do people go to the pub with their mates and talk about bog standard investment pensions?
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: Well maybe they do but it's not interesting and being British you know it's not very British to talk about money in the first place.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas actually if you're delivering a fantastic experience to people the differentiation is the bit that people is the bit that people talk about.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a process that's called life plan and and it is that it's about helping people to plan what their financial future or to understand what their financial future looks like.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: It is unrealistic and unnecessary I think to know well what to to forecast what are your utilities going to cost 30 years from now but what is hugely important is to help people well to understand well in the career that you're in at the moment you're in banking you know and this is the case with a lot of our clients you're working in banking you're working in law it is a very well paid but very high pressured environment do you can you foresee yourself doing that for the next 15 or 20 years it might not even be a choice especially when you get to a level of seniority in banking that might not be a choice that you have it might be that you've become so expensive if the bank are making cuts you're an obvious target.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore if there is something that you would rather be doing in your life or in your career what is the financial position that you need to be in to be able to make those sorts of significant life changes.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know we've only got one life life is not a rehearsal so our whole process is about how you can make the most of it.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: How can you optimize your time?
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know people say you can't buy time but you can buy time because the whole point about optimizing your finances is to give you the capacity to make decisions about the time that you've got and that's really what our sort of life plan process is is is built around those sorts of uh ideas.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay cool.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: So again there's that unique selling point as a as a business you know you're offering that higher level of service to the clients that are out there in in Hong Kong.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: So again if a financial planner is thinking about going to Hong Kong and and and working offshore you are delivering a level of advice which is far greater than any other company out there in Hong Kong in respect of service especially around that lifestyle financial planning.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: And as a business PM by the sounds of it are looking to evolve uh continue training continue developing so the advisors that you have within the business as well have they taken to this approach um to financial planning well or have they do they find it's a bit long-winded and all they want to do is just chuck out some high earning commission based products no they I think you know we're not a bums on seats company I've got I'm not I don't want I'm not trying to be all things to all people because that's going to end up having a detrimental impact to the name of the business and what we're trying to build.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know we are really about trying to find a team uh a team of people that are really like minded in how they think advice should be delivered.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm very quick even if someone comes with a good book of business that they could transfer over to us and that could be an immediate uh uh you know income stream revenue stream for us if they're not philosophically aligned or if they're not at least willing to be open to this way of giving advice and actually they want towards want to work towards that very quickly then they're probably not for us and actually part of the reason as to why um I developed life plan was for our capacity to organically grow because to the point of turning up in a new place and being able to get that momentum we charge people to go through the life plan process.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: So and we have two versions of it we have life plan foundations which is designed for those Henry type clients you know those that are just embarking on their financial planning journey simple circumstances single people you know maybe they're just getting married or just having a kid and they're starting to you know put pen to paper and think about what the future looks like.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have a more um a deeper version life plan foundations so but it immediately means that somebody can turn up and they can they can talk to somebody about proper financial planning they can engage somebody in that process they can be earning a fee for that process without having to get to the end before there may or may not be some investment management and there there is there's sort of revenue there's revenue coming in and because it's objective advice we also have clients that engage in the process where they don't we're not doing anything at the end of that you know people that have already got financial advisors and they tell me I've got a financial plan.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: Brilliant bring it with you and what do they turn up with they turn up with a valuation statement of the product or investment account that they've got there's no financial planning.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Or maybe it's people who are very bullish in buying property you know rightly or wrongly property property property but they actually don't understand how from a financial planning perspective the acquisition the disposal the tax implications the tax burdens and how does that all fit together in terms of how property will work for their future financial life so there's that's where it's also been to me a surprising success is people who are engaging us for that objective advice.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so for somebody turning up fresh off the boat other than getting into that rhythm of understanding how to deliver the life plan process which is a systematized pretty slick process um they can really get a momentum quite quickly.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: What's realistically what does year one look like for a financial planner fresh off the boat in Hong Kong experienced UK advisor someone who's used to giving financial advice in the UK they decide I want to go to Hong Kong uh I've got no clients in Hong Kong I want to go for the culture I want to go for the lifestyle I want to spend the next 10 to 15 15 years being a financial planner in Hong Kong realistically what does year one year two look like to them?
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I I think being realistic a realistic year one um would be an 8000 in in in Sterling terms 80 to 100 and something um when I look at what our the value of our average clients are I think the the the the the value of an average client is probably in the 5,000 pounds mark or so maybe we have some which are a lot more um in fact actually I mean for my personal clients they're probably closer to£15,000 per client as an initial sort of fee um sort of base but for somebody new not doesn't have that same experience hasn't got worked their way into those sort of higher earning people immediately I would think that their client demographic that the the fee to them would be worth probably around about the£5,000 mark.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: So you're looking at 15 to 20 clients over the course of that year which is not a huge number of of clients um I don't I don't I don't think but it's entirely the good thing about this job and one of the things that I love about it is it your success is almost entirely intrinsic you know intrinsically linked to your capacity to and desire to get stuck in and there is no doubt that hard work can offset you know um experience at the end of the day.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you know one of the biggest challenges I think with financial planners in the UK is they're a lot of them aren't naturally business developers you know they're not naturally out there selling their services all the time um in reality in Hong Kong should you as an advisor be a strong business developer?
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: Do you need to have that business developer mentality?
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I would be lying if I said no because it is undoubtedly a big advantage.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think you have to be the world's best business developer because Hong Kong is a natural sort of networking environment but undoubtedly that is something which is hugely um you know is hugely beneficial to you I think um that uh um the the the the the environment of Hong Kong Hong Kong is an expensive place to live you know rent is very expensive in Hong Kong there's you know that that's just an unfortunate fact.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: But on the flip side of that tax is very low you know we pay 15% um income tax and living costs are probably not really that much more than than than london so you don't have to be the world's best business developer but yes I think you I think to have a hunger and to but to have that credibility and a hunger is um yeah you're you're you're you're sort of already on the right path.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: If I come over to Hong Kong and I start working as a financial advisor for Piemont now let's say for example I decide that I want to go back to the UK after say 15 years I've had a good stint in Hong Kong I've built some great client relationships got loads of assets under management lovely income coming in if I then go back to the UK and I want to continue being an advisor can I still take my income from the clients that I built and the assets I have under management whilst being in Hong Kong but living in the UK?
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: So um to add something to the last question as well sorry you know we don't have a big legacy book but we are also working on a lot of the ways of digital marketing lead generation to help people to join um but sorry to answer that question I think um yes you know we are in terms of our own um uh plans we already have some advisors that are UK regulated in the UK that have clients in Hong Kong and we're in discussions and I would like to think probably not now by the end of this year with um with you know the current COVID circumstances but by early next year we will have a Piemont entity in the UK for several things first of all for the repatriation of clients at the moment I continue to look after my own clients who are repatriating or we do it with um our advisors in the UK um but yeah we will have the UK office for the purpose of repatriating and also as a bit of a training ground that somebody can in the UK can become sort of piemonized and then actually they say well I want to go out to Asia there's a progression sort of out this way as well.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's also you know we have people that live in Hong Kong they love Asia it's not back to the UK it's a bit you know dreary and um you know and a bit rainy so they want to go to Thailand or I want to go somewhere else.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of opportunity to still take your client base to still retain those relationships.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know as we said at the beginning COVID has shown that um technology can work very well for retaining client relationships.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_01: So yes as long as you're sort of complying or as long as we're complying to the regulatory requirements of the jurisdictions that people are living in then yeah absolutely as I said Donald my partner is Australian we have an Australian license through him as well so we're also um exploring and developing that sort of Australian side of the business hence our focus is mainly on the British and um Australian communities here.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's a fantastic opportunity for an Australian advisor or an advisor with Australian qualification to be in Hong Kong because there is a relatively underserved affluent Australian community as well.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay cool.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: So again and that's a beautiful thing about your business like you know it's not you're not just limited to just saying I want someone from the UK you can take people from from different parts of the world um you know and um and that's the beauty I suppose of an expat expat community in an international an international city an international country um there's certainly a lot going on over in Hong Kong isn't there what about um okay so another question I'm going to ask you is if I'm an advisor and I come over and I generate 200 grand you know 200k's worth of recurring income but I want to exit you know I want to exit the industry are you um at Piermont in a position to be able to buy that client book because I suppose it's down really to whether or not the advisor is employed by you or self-employed underneath you but let's say for example I'm self-employed I've got 200k's worth of recurring income nice little client book you know what it looks like you've seen the income coming in would you be in a position to then buy that client book from me so I can shoot off back home and enjoy my life back in the UK?
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah absolutely I think you know we have advisors within the business and um that are interested in you know that would be interested in that sort of buyout we could do it in some form of earn out type um structure as well so absolutely I think you know the one the whole point of having a funds under advice model for the advisors is that they are building their own you know their own revenue stream and something of actual value to them.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes there's a value to the business but because the clients belong to the advisor importantly they're building a real value um for them and you know to the question before earlier of of income potential I think I just want to be realistic about year one income potential.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_01: Years two, three four five that we that's when it really sort of ramps up I think you would be naive or misled or you're selling products which are not very client friendly to think year one I'm turning up and I'm banging out monstrous you know figures.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes you might be lucky you might find one sort of you know very wealthy client and but but you know I I always think it's better to to be realistic about about about these things and and I think that's why you have to be viewing this as a more medium term opportunity is it's about being willing to put the time in to build it up to something which is then very sizable.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: But in the same way that we preach life centered financial planning to our clients you know I believe in that for advisors as well so we're you know we're not an eight to six you've got to be in the office you've got to wear a uh you know a blue suit and a stripy tie and it's our way or the highway who wants to work in that environment you know if advisors are experienced they're treated like adults so they can have their own flexibility to live the life that they want to live as well to me that is that's also very important.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is it very different in Hong Kong?
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because you mentioned there about lifestyle and I guess you know work-life balance is a massive thing at the moment and it's going to be even more so with with the way people have been working since COVID-19 um I mean is the lifestyle massively different in Hong Kong can you be that relaxed approach to work as opposed to that you know feeling in fear that you're not doing your job in the UK that someone's watching you know is it different in Hong Kong is it more is it more laid back and flexible what's the difference to the UK for example?
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think yes but I think to a certain extent you have to earn that freedom right in that because of the living cost of Hong Kong you do have to get to a point where you can afford to take your foot off the gas.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: But you you know like I said earlier Hong Kong's got hundreds of kilometres of hiking trails it's got beaches it's got lots of islands so a lot of people live on an at what's called an outlying island Hong Kong actually has about 200 islands not all of them are inhabitable um but there's a good dozen or so where there's you know real community and people live there because they don't want to be in that sort of fast-paced urban environment that of you know that everybody sees of the Hong Kong of the Hong Kong skyline um but also you know we're very well placed for those trips to going and playing golf in Vietnam it's a one hour flight away going to Thailand it's a two hour flight away um you know going to Bali it's a four and a half hour flight away so you know Hong Kong can be whatever you want it to be it definitely has a hardworking hard living energy to it and I've certainly seen people normally the younger guys that come out they get carried away with the fact that you can get a beer 24 hours of a day and you can just go bananas and they do lose themselves and and that's definitely a talk that I have with somebody who's very young coming is it's going to be very easy for you to get carried away with this environment that you are that you are in.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: But on the flip side of that if you're somebody who's very quiet you know not that interested in the social side not you know not not somebody you just want to have that quieter side of of living that is definitely a um you know that that that is there as in in the equal way you could do it the other way as well.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah and I guess as well like that's I can understand why you you you're then looking at more established financial planners really people that have gone through the process understand what it's about to be a financial advisor you know are you are are used to delivering good solid financial planning if they've you know done some sort of life centered for planning type approach in the past that's going to be beneficial but also from a maturity perspective because I can imagine and I hear this a lot is that if you're going offshore it's like almost feeling like you're going on holiday um and there's a big ri there's a big risk that you earn some big bugs start buying yourself a nice watch going out on the piss every two seconds and sort of ruining it basically and but but then again that's part of the process for some people isn't it some people go out there live the high life what does it matter if you're 26 years old 27 years old you're earning 100k plus a year um and you know you're in a foreign country and you're gonna have a right good time aren't you so there's that there is that kind of aspect as well isn't it it's fun and I love the idea if I was 27 and I was living in Hong Kong when you just said I love Southeast Asia travelled all over Southeast Asia I love Australia I love the idea of you know jumping on a plane going to Vietnam absolutely love Vietnam love Malaysia love Cambodia love it all.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_01: So for me I'd be buzzing about where I am situated in the world because you've you've got a bit of everything in you at your doorstep absolutely and I you know I I think you you said at the beginning did I look at the UK you know about why offshore versus the UK I mean I never even looked at the UK because I was actually quite happy with my job at that time before the offshore sort of side approached me and you know I've had fantastic experience probably experience to do with clients that the person still has to be the right person.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: They have to be coming to Hong Kong with that right mindset.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: And actually if I can see it's somebody that is a you know that they don't want it for the right reasons they're probably not going to they're not they're not going to be right for us.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: They could be right for somebody else in Hong Kong but they're not a Piemont advisor.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know I see for people coming out of the UK I see it the real opportunity is for those that have already either grasped or got an interest in this better way of giving advice and because of the offshore environment that credibility can just help you to expedite it.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay cool.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you know you've worked offshore for quite some time can I sort of ask you I'm not gonna go too sort of personal but I always think it's good to to get an account and a testimonial from somebody that's out there doing it and built a business you know how much assets under management have you generated yourself personally whilst being out in Hong Kong and what sort of income are you generating for yourself?
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah so I mean individually I think I've got about 50 something clients now I've definitely gone through a process of of segmenting clients already I think those 50 clients is representative of around about 50 something million US dollars of assets under advice of which is predominantly paying a 1% sort of um uh uh ongoing Growing revenue.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, there's also new fees which are generated every year through either new clients or through additional investing or through protection and other sort of revenue streams as well.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: But we're a small team, you know, we're a small team, we're um we're four advisors with some back office staff.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_01: We've got some non-client-facing experienced advisors as well from a regulatory and sort of responsibility perspective.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I think as a firm we're around about 160 something US of assets under advice.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_01: We've got two new advisors joining, hopefully, in the coming months, which will actually add another 60 or 70 on top of that as well.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: But that's what we want.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we want people that want to build their business to a good level or that are joining already from an offshore environment who have got something to bring with them.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then within that team, we will we will foster and help to nurture some talent a little bit more organically.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, like uh you know, I've got a chap who he was a one-year power planner, he joined St.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_01: James's Place uh in Shanghai, wasn't what he anticipated, but you know, he believes in feed-based planning, he believes in evidence-based investing, a great goator for us to nurture and to um, you know, to develop and for him to have uh a good career in in you know in what we're doing.
• 1:07:24
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so somebody from a power planning background's joined you, you've seen the potential in that individual, and um you're taking him through the process of becoming a life planner.
• 1:07:34
  SPEAKER_00: What about qualifications-wise then?
• 1:07:36
  SPEAKER_00: So is it you know, some of the country, some of the companies in in different countries, you know, you don't need to have, you know, diploma level four, you know.
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_00: What's it like in Hong Kong?
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_00: What's the league, you know, what's the requirement to be able to give financial planning?
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_00: What qualifications do you have to have?
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think from what you have to have, as Hong Kong, in terms of Hong Kong as a city, you have to have very little.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because the reality is that if you are working for a company that only has an insurance license, you've got three very basic insurance exams to do.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you can, I mean, I did those in two days, I think.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I had the stuff for a couple of weeks, did two exams one day, one exam the next day, but that is no good thing.
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the fact that you can get away with that is no good thing.
• 1:08:23
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're a firm like ours that had properly licensed with a full asset management license, there is also a robust securities regulator that, depending on your other qualifications, requires you to either do one quite big exam, which is a securities asset management exam, or four exams to get the two different um investment management licenses that we have.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I, you know, for us, if you're a UK advisor coming or somebody you know who's wanting to join that we don't know, we would want that level four qualification just because of the credibility that it gives.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_01: And also it helps, it means you don't have to do four Hong Kong exams, you only have to do, you only have to do one.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I think just in terms of that credibility, it it that that that again is something which immediately um you know differentiates you from some of the other people that are that are here.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned also before about digital marketing lead generation, again, an area where if an advisor says, what opportunities are there for me?
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_00: So if I join that firm, what what are they doing for me to help me generate new business?
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned there about digital marketing.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something that you're investing in?
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_00: You're you're going to have some, have you had some success around digital marketing already, or is it quite early stages for you?
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_00: What's the crack with that?
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's relatively early stages.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: So actually, until not too long ago, our asset management license had a self-imposed restriction that we would only actually deal with investors that had one million US dollars of liquid assets or more.
• 1:09:54
  SPEAKER_01: So has this two-tier regulatory regime when anybody with less than 1.1 million US dollars of liquid assets is needed to be a retail investor, and there are some limitations in how their money can be invested.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And for us that worked fine because that was my sort of, you know, that was my segment of clients that I was and the other advisors that we had as well.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_01: But so we could grow organically, we then went through the process of opening up our license so that we can help retail clients as well.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_01: So we sort of put a pause on the uh on the digital marketing for a period of time just because some of the inquiries that we were receiving were retail and we were actually having to turn people away, which sounds sort of silly.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So now we've got the retail license, now we will get involved in that much more heavily because that's a good way for the more junior advisors to deal with those slightly less sophisticated retail investor clients, and we're going to be getting those sort of coming through passively.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_01: But what has worked well for us are um affinity group presentations, webinars, we've done events for corporate events doing things on workplace financial planning, workplace well-being, protection planning for families, and that that is also a uh you know a good opportunity and a good way of building momentum.
• 1:11:11
  SPEAKER_01: And for a new advisor, that's something that either they might participate in something that I'm speaking at, or I would support them in terms of them speaking at it.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that really depends on how comfortable they are.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I appreciate that some people don't like doing seminars, but that doesn't mean they can't sort of benefit from the spoils of it if we're doing it as a as a company.
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, all right, so someone comes out and joins you.
• 1:11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now what would your advice to be would be to somebody becoming a financial planner out in Hong Kong, should they go down the employed route or should they go down the self-employed route?
• 1:11:51
  SPEAKER_00: What what's your sort of advice around that?
• 1:11:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that you know that has to be if you're somebody that's coming from scratch, if you're coming from a market like, let's say, for example, you know, we've had inquiries from advisors that were based in Dubai.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, advisor based in Dubai wanted to come out to Asia clients that he wanted to look after and continues to look after.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_01: So for him, there would be no reason for him to go down the employed route because he's going to do well from being self-employed.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, you know, the one thing that we've acknowledged along the way is that if you're coming out from scratch, there has to be some form of support to at least help you to get that sort of momentum.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_01: That is not a one-year full salary, because actually that that to a certain extent gives you that full sense of security.
• 1:12:42
  SPEAKER_01: You still need that hunger.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_01: We are, you know, whilst we deliver great advice and we're doing it, I think, in a very good way, it's still about um, it's still a hunting market.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're still going out looking for new for new clients.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think that will evolve in time as we may have other clients that we can just give to people to look after.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, if you are um I think coming from scratch, you need a bit of financial support to help you to get that momentum.
• 1:13:09
  SPEAKER_01: And if it is purely, you're more than welcome to come out on a fee-only basis, but it's just going to make it that little bit more difficult.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So if let's say, for example, I I'm on, um let's say I'm in the UK, all right.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm I'm relatively good.
• 1:13:23
  SPEAKER_00: You want a good advisor, don't you, at the end of the day?
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want some dross coming over.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm used to earning 70,000, 80,000 pounds a year in the UK, right?
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_00: What would I have to write in Hong Kong to be able to live a good lifestyle in Hong Kong?
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to eat out, I want to rent a nice apartment, you know, I want to go over to Vietnam and play golf, you know, all those things.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, what do you think I need to write in business a year in Hong Kong and US dollars to really have a good, above average lifestyle?
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think that depends on your circumstances, if you're coming on your own or if you're coming with family, because the unfortunate reality with family is Hong Kong can be expensive, especially if you've got a non-working spouse.
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if only one of you is working and you need an apartment big enough, Hong Kong apartments are not sizable, unfortunately.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, hence, you know, you can see we're a small space with seven million people, there's a lot of small apartments.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_01: So, and that's why people live in some of these outlying islands because you get a lot more, a lot more bang for buck.
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, I think if you're coming on your own, then you can live a very nice life earning 50, 60, 70,000 US dollars a year.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, your rent is is going to set you back probably um you know 1500 US dollars to choose.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_01: You you can spend as much as you want on property in Hong Kong because it's got such such extremities.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think if you are going to, you know, if you're a totally young guy and you're happy to, you know, flat share, that's going to cost you five or six hundred um, you know, US dollars a month, something maybe sorry, about 700 US dollars a month.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_01: A small one-bedroom apartment is going to cost you about 1,500 to 2,000 US dollars a month.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_01: Living, beers in socializing can again be as expensive as you want it to be.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that is the sort of the basic minimum.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_01: You can have a nice life.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_01: It costs you 100 US dollars to fly to Jenang.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't cost you very much to be there.
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's um, you know, it it's not all about high, high, high, high, high.
• 1:15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, that that it can it it it can have good balance.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Is Hong Kong quite um a racially diverse city, or you know, is it predominantly white over there?
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_01: You know, whites advising, you know, is it is it mixed race or um I mean I think the the female advice, I mean not the females obviously race, but the female advice community is definitely underrepresented.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think there is a fantastic opportunity for good female advice, Julie Delivery.com.
• 1:16:10
  SPEAKER_01: There's a couple who are quite good, but there's a real, there's definitely uh uh an opportunity for good female financial advisors.
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_01: There are a couple of um of uh Asian um advisors in in Hong Kong by that sort of I, you know, um I'm not sure how to word it without being rude, but would be sort of Indian community focused.
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_01: There is a big non-resident Indian community in Hong Kong.
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think there are some advisors here to specifically serve that market.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there are some advisors who are European, but I think in terms of ethnicity, it would still be in the you know, in the expat market, it is still a predominantly Caucasian market, which is no for what reason?
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's no reason for that.
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's an absolute, you know, it's it's it's a nonsense, really.
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um that is just yeah, yeah, yeah, fine.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, it's a big, you know, it's a big it's it's a big deal in the UK at the moment, especially around um financial services.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I've spoken to um a couple of black advisors actually in the UK, and it's really around sort of raising that profile of advisors from different cultural backgrounds, different and ethnicities, and increasingly the advisors out you know in the UK around this.
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and also in respect of um, you know, diversity, inclusivity, we're also looking to increase the amount of female financial advisors, and there's a huge market for female financial advisors in the UK.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_00: There's gonna be more women with more money over the next few years.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot more women are coming into financial planning in the UK.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and as you mentioned, you know, that you know, perhaps a if if a female is listening to this, Hong Kong could be a fantastic place to really establish yourself, get out there and and um and start advising.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Is it you know, is is there a need for for female-based financial advice in Hong Kong, do you think?
• 1:17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think there's a lot of quite wealthy females out there as well as as males?
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Not that they would only advise females, but no, absolutely.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I think at the end of the day, financial advice, you know, we're in a relationships business, and relationships are built around trust, and part of that trust comes from commonality.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, irrespective of race, gender, um, ethnicity, sexual orientation, the reality is some people would just prefer to deal with people that have they have that commonality with for that very reason that they have something in common.
• 1:18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And there might be some cultural nuances as to how that advice is delivered, and there can be some niches for people to take advantage of.
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's been a couple of firms in Hong Kong who have tried to go down that, you know, the LGBT asset management path.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yes, I think from an estate planning perspective, if you are a gay couple, there can obviously be some countries that don't recognise gay marriage, and therefore there are some things to be aware of.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're gay, does your money need to be managed differently?
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_01: No, it doesn't.
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I think I think it can also become there is the danger that people can end up becoming, you know, ignorant about it.
• 1:19:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, just your your preferences, orientations, and ethnicities should have no impact on how on on who you work with uh and and how you give advice, but there are certainly some nuances and potentially niches that you could take advantage of for that reason.
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think um, you know, a lot of females do like to work with a female financial advisor, just tends to be a higher level of empathy with when when when females provide advice and when they go through like the advice and life planning process.
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Not that they're doing it any better than men who could sit in front of a woman, but I think a woman tends to, a female by the sounds of things, what I'm hearing from other female financial advisors, there seems to be a deeper connection around sort of empathy and behaviours.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and a lot of advisors in the UK, as a as a great lady actually, Catherine Catherine Morgan, she's got a podcast called In In Her Financial Shoes.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna bring her on the podcast because she's doing some great stuff around it, you know, and really established that niche within female financial planning.
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um that's what it is at the end of the day, innit?
• 1:20:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's establishing that niece and niche and and and um you know capitalising on it.
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's plenty of people out there that want the advice, and um it's but predominantly being quite male focused, isn't it?
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, actually how I came about money coaching was I I I heard Haley Tink on um, I think it was Martin Bamford's podcast.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_01: I listened to a lot of financial planning podcasts, and uh, you know, again, another another great fight female financial advisor, but it that you you know it there is uh that sort of um life-centered female advisor, I don't think is in Hong Kong.
• 1:20:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're in the UK and you've already got that sort of life-centered um lifestyle financial planning approach, and you can deliver that out here, that's a fantastic sort of opportunity.
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because the reality is advice is still a male-dominated industry, and there's no reason for it.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a lot of statistics to prove that women make for better financial better um financial advisors.
• 1:21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe, you know, I think the the you know, a lot of the that sort of stereotypical product selling male, wham-bam, thank you, ma'am type approach, but that shouldn't that doesn't bode well with anybody.
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, the empathy of advice and the understanding of who you're dealing with is hugely important, irrespective of the market that you're you know delivering within.
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_00: All right, fantastic.
• 1:21:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, what do you think the next three to five years looks like for you then over in Hong Kong and Pierre Montwealth?
• 1:21:38
  SPEAKER_00: What's your what's your plans for growth and what does it all look like your future?
• 1:21:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think really it's just about evolving the model that we've got.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, life plan is quite new.
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Life plan was you know is it is a mix of some US software, some UK software, some questions which have been developed over time.
• 1:21:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm you know, I'm talking to a UK coach about developing that as well.
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just about getting that message out there even more and becoming known for being a great advice business.
• 1:22:02
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the reality in terms of our headcount growth, that is entirely determined by the caliber of people that we come across.
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, from my point of view, next year, if we have two more advisors, fantastic.
• 1:22:16
  SPEAKER_01: If we have one more advisor, great.
• 1:22:18
  SPEAKER_01: And if we have no more, well, so be it.
• 1:22:21
  SPEAKER_01: We're not going to force it, we're not gonna force headcount just because we want bums on seats to try and generate revenue.
• 1:22:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about trying to find people that are like-minded and are you know philosophically aligned.
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_01: The thing that we haven't touched on is that we believe in evidence-based investing, and so you know, we do a lot of work with dimensional fund advisors.
• 1:22:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so again, there is an education piece for people that are purely down that active investment route.
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's going to be some disalignment there.
• 1:22:51
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so I and I think what that then ends up is that you have client, you have advisors that are on the same page in terms of how they want to give advice, a very deep client-focused approach.
• 1:23:02
  SPEAKER_01: You have advisors that are on the same page from an investment management sort of philosophy.
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you're bringing that out into the digital space as well, the message then becomes very cohesive, and that then benefits all of us that are involved because it just helps to get the name out there rather than it being fragmented in advisors running around town.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, this advisor thinks that this advisor, all under the same banner.
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a much more cohesive and a much stronger message, and that what that's what will help us be known for being a great advice firm.
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Great stuff.
• 1:23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it all sounds really, really positive.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um, you certainly stand out as a as an advisor yourself, as an individual, but also as a company as being very um forward-thinking and different from your competitors.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I think um, again, you've kind of shone a um a very honest and um light on what it's like to be an advisor out in Hong Kong, you know.
• 1:23:58
  SPEAKER_00: The one thing I would probably say is as one more question before we sort of wrap this up, is you know, what are the what have been the biggest struggles?
• 1:24:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because we've talked about a lot of the positive things, but what is the biggest struggle that you've come up against?
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Something you've had to overcome?
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what's the toughest part about being a financial planner over in Hong Kong?
• 1:24:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I think it's the industry in general.
• 1:24:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, two weeks into living in Amsterdam, I found myself sat in a park on a Saturday, not knowing what was going on around me because I didn't understand Dutch in this alien environment, thinking, hold on, what have I signed up for?
• 1:24:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but I think but because I've been doing this for a long time and I appreciate that experience, I don't think that new advisors coming to Hong Kong would have those same struggles because we're sort of here to support them.
• 1:24:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the I think our challenge is actually probably about the education piece of people really seeing the value of proper financial planning and being willing to pay for that.
• 1:24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that is not a bad challenge to have because as soon as they get that message and as soon as they understand it, that then becomes a great sort of opportunity.
• 1:25:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't actually think, maybe fortunately, that there's never been one big obstacle that has stood in the way of our ability to evolve and progress and build and you know and and prosper.
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_00: So in reality, if you were a financial planner and you're thinking about working offshore, you know, Hong Kong is definitely a location you should be looking at.
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you've got clients out there that have got high-income um, you know, million million plus type individuals.
• 1:25:39
  SPEAKER_00: You yourself have generated 50 clients with average investable assets of a million quid.
• 1:25:44
  SPEAKER_00: So you've shown that you can do it.
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_00: You've built and are the only lifestyle financial planning company in Hong Kong.
• 1:25:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that space does work.
• 1:25:53
  SPEAKER_00: You can generate assets under management to get that level of recurring income.
• 1:25:57
  SPEAKER_00: It isn't just a product pushing type environment, although you can still sell those types of things, and there's plenty of insurance agents out there doing that.
• 1:26:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's a diverse client base out there that require it.
• 1:26:08
  SPEAKER_00: You can generate clients through networking.
• 1:26:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, clients can come from Australia, America, the UK, whatever, expats.
• 1:26:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's plenty of expats out there.
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you can, you know, you're perfectly situated in in the world to be able to enjoy multiple other countries.
• 1:26:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like popping over, you know, down to Devon or something instead of popping over to Vietnam, you know, and you're having a crack out there as well.
• 1:26:29
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and you can really make it out there in a different culture and um and and and build a business.
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the biggest thing, I think, from my perspective is is that taking away the worry that your next paycheck is based on commission, actually, you are building a sustain you know sustainable business where you are getting that level of recurring income.
• 1:26:50
  SPEAKER_00: And as you mentioned in year one, if you can realistically earn, you should be able to realistically earn around 80,000 to you know 100k US dollars.
• 1:26:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're doing that, you're having a good lifestyle over in Hong Kong, and you're only ever going to build upon that by the sounds of it.
• 1:27:06
  SPEAKER_00: So um PM on obviously a company, your company, you're building it up there, it's standing out from the crowd out there.
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if someone is interested in joining someone like yourselves, is to get in contact with myself or get in contact with you and and discuss it a little bit further.
• 1:27:21
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and thank you so much for sharing uh an honest appraisal of what it's like to work out there, an honest appraisal of your background and why you do what you do, because I think it's a great insight into um working offshore.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And not a lot of people are doing it in an explaining it in an honest, articulate way.
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you very much for your time today.
• 1:27:39
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, thanks for having me.
• 1:27:40
  SPEAKER_01: And we're on LinkedIn and we're putting some content out there, so you'll get a feel for what we're up to and what Hong Kong's like.
• 1:27:46
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, feel free to connect and have a look.
• 1:27:49
  SPEAKER_00: Feel free to send me some plane tickets, I'll come out and uh reccu the place, do a little recruitment video.
• 1:27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the sevens is a is uh unfortunately cancelled this year, but that that you should do that as your as a recruit UK incentive, Hong Kong for the Sevens.
• 1:28:03
  SPEAKER_01: It is a fantastic few days, yeah, one not to be missed.
• 1:28:07
  SPEAKER_00: You like your rugby, don't you?
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_01: I do, yeah.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_01: Bath, unfortunately, for you in Bristol.
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Your Bath rugby rugby fanny, yeah.
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:28:14
  SPEAKER_01: Do you play rugby at in Hong Kong?
• 1:28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, play rugby in Hong Kong.
• 1:28:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, for my sins, my wife would rather I didn't, but but that's the thing, right?
• 1:28:21
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I I I I stopped playing rugby at 19, turned up in Hong Kong, aged um, you know, by then I was 30, and then the first guy I met in Hong Kong said, if you ever played rugby, I said not for a long time, that'll do, come down on Saturday.
• 1:28:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was dreadful, and I don't think I've improved much since then, but it's great fun just to have a run around on a Saturday, the team, it has been good for work as well.
• 1:28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, you know, it's just something to get involved in.
• 1:28:44
  SPEAKER_00: Good social aspect as well.
• 1:28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, brilliant stuff.
• 1:28:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, listen, thanks so much for your time.
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'll keep knowing more of it, and um and um yeah, thank you so much for your time today, Simon.
• 1:28:52
  SPEAKER_01: Great, cheers, thank you.
• 1:28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Cheers, buddy.
• 1:28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Cheers.
• 1:28:54
  unknown: Cool.