Latest / Infidels / From Egypt to Judaism: What Real Ideological Change Looks Like | Khaled Hassan with Sheri Oz

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From Egypt to Judaism: What Real Ideological Change Looks Like | Khaled Hassan with Sheri Oz · Infidels

• Sheri: Good afternoon, Khaled. Thank you for being here. Khaled Hassan: Thank you for having me. Sheri: I'm speaking with Khaled Hassan, who was born and raised in Egypt and now lives in the UK. And I specifically wanted to speak with you, Khaled, because you can shed some light on something that's been puzzling me for a long time. How does somebody like me, who was raised in neither a Muslim nor an Arab environment, distinguish between somebody who has undergone a true ideological transformation, leaving behind jihadism? And Muslim supremacism versus someone who's only pretending to. And that's what I want to explore with you today. But Khaled Hassan: Yes. Sheri: I want to begin with something that happened when you were a child. You told me about a time when you were outside with your dog and your Christian neighborhood. Neighbor. Can you tell us what happened? Khaled Hassan: Yes, I I I I always loved dogs and I loved having dogs. And I think my family found this sometimes difficult because, you know, during Muslim holidays, you know, dogs are basically, you know, according to most Muslims, dogs are not okay basically. You're not allowed to own dogs in the house. because there is this perception that if you own dogs, your your house is going to be basically impure and that means that the angels won't come to your house. So, you know, God won't bless your house. and that's the main challenge. And I had a Christian neighbor and I sometimes just went to them to say, you know, look, can you please look after my dog for you know those few days? Because my mom wants me to get rid of it and I don't want to get rid of it, so maybe you could keep the dog for a few days. And my Christian neighbor was very kind to always agree, so you know, they did this. And I remember one day I went during the Friday prayers during the sermon. And while I was giving her the dog, she was a lady who lived with her sisters. They lived alone. And I heard the Imam in the mosque basically saying things that are horrific about Christians, you know, that God should read the world of Christians and stuff like this. And I think this was as a child because this woman was very helpful, so I I really liked her, you know, and I felt like the fact that she was Sheri: Speaking of dogs. Khaled Hassan: Yes. The fact that she was essentially being discriminated against in such a way and being essentially referred to as someone who's impure and someone who's, you know, basically, you know, just just like a second class citizen Sheri: Yeah. Khaled Hassan: or worse, was really embarrassing for me. Like I stood there as a child and I I felt really, really, really sad and I I remember this vividly because I didn't know what to say and I could see the look on her face. She was quite hurt by it because obviously you know those are your neighbors and when you hear your neighbors saying basically, you know, in loud speakers, saying that you are filth and saying that you are impure and you know, God should cleanse the world of Jews and Christians, it's it was quite horrific, yeah. Sheri: Wow. So what what really what impact further did that did that experience have on you? The the shock Khaled Hassan: I think Sheri: of the mo where did it go? Khaled Hassan: i it it made me feel like I really I started to question many things. I mean I was a child, I was never really religious, you know, I was a child, but you the fact that this happened made me feel like I had many, many serious questions about Islam anyway, because this man, the Imam of the mosque, was actually an uneducated man. Like, you know, we have we have something called al Baweb in Egypt, and the beweb is essentially the man who looks after every building. So he lives in a small room, you know, sort of in the basement of every block of flats. And his job is to, you know, clean the building, you know, get, you know, groceries for people, you know, and stuff like this. And he was the Imam, you know, it was often the case that the Imam would be the man who's essentially, you know, he's got a bit of time to kill. So he would go open the mosque for the prayer and, you know, play the l the role of the Imam. And he was an uneducated peasant. That's how I would put it basically. Because he came from the countryside, from a place that is very much still living in the you know dark times, I would probably say, you know, in the in in the dark areas. And he still played the Imam. So the fact that we had someone who is again, you know, I mean, that's how I saw him, because you know, Egypt is also very focused on class. So the fact that he was uneducated, that he was you know, again, comes from this peasant background. A lot of people won't think that's nice thing to say, but that's how things happen in Egypt. And he would be seen, you know, to be taking to the podium and leading the Muslims in prayer. I really found that quite despicable. Sheri: So this contrast between the Imam and your Christian friend was one of that was one of the things that started to change the way you saw things. Is that true? Khaled Hassan: absolutely, yes. And I also really hated, you know, the fact that I was not allowed to have dogs because I always loved dogs and I felt like, you know, the dog was my best friend. Like, you know, as a child, I you know, I I I used to watch films about, you know, you know, people having dogs and having animals and having all that stuff and I loved that. You know, it's it was just part of me really. And I felt like, you know, training my dog to do tricks, training my dog to do st it was like, you know, essentially one of the happiest moments of my life. Sheri: Wow. Khaled Hassan: So I felt like it was it was just taking too much from me. Taking too much from my, you know, things that, you know, I I saw, like, because I was fascinated with America, still am, to be honest. you know, like you would watch TV, and in America, you know, the families have dogs and it's perfectly fine. And I felt like, why is this being taken away from me? Like there is no logical reason. Like, I couldn't really come to terms with it. Sheri: Okay, so now I want to jump ahead. You know from your own experience and all that you've gone through what ideological change can look like from the inside. Something I can I can't know. So today, when somebody tells you that they have rejected the anti Semitism or the Muslim supremacist ideas that they once held, what makes you believe that that change is genuine? Khaled Hassan: I think it has to be a journey. It has to be a journey, you know, you start to question things, you start to distance yourself, you start to feel like maybe I don't belong here, but there is a lot of pressure. So you start to, you know, sort of maybe try to hold on to this community because you still feel like, you know, you don't want to essentially be cut off from your family and your community. So there has to be for it to be genuine, there has to be a journey. I'm very skeptical of many people who just, you know After October 7th, just decided to grow, you know, this is just me now. I had this sort of awakening. I suppose it could happen. but for me, it has to be, you know, a journey. It happens gradually. No one changes drastically just overnight. Like you never go to sleep as an antisemite and wake up the next morning as someone who supports Israel and Jews. Like it just doesn't happen. It has to happen gradually, and people have to also. accept and talk about who they were, you know, why they're they they were antisemitic or what happened to them and take ownership of it. You know, you have to take ownership of it. And instead of I've seen quite a few people for instance, they go on and they start to delete tweets, they go on and start to do this. You know, I don't think you should. I think you should be honest about the change you've experienced and why your views have changed. And instead of trying to hide it and pretend that you were basically always pro peace or always, you know, y basically like you almost trying to erase your history with anti Semitism. I think that that for me is always a question mark because people who try to hide things like this for me are, you know, again they're trying to hide something for a reason. Sheri: Well that makes sense to me, but I can also imagine that somebody could easily say, Yes, of course I used to be this and this and this and I'm not anymore. How do you know if it's really, really true? Khaled Hassan: Well, I think you you for me there have there has to be, you know, a bunch of indications essentially. You know, for it to be true, you also have to be like you have to behave in a way like I'm very skeptical, for instance, of people who are not at all critical of Israel. Like people who would not criticize Israel at all. Like people who sort of, you know, sort of like, okay, I am now on Israel's side, so I will be one hundred percent not critical of Israel. Or, you know, basically, Sheri: Mm-hmm. Khaled Hassan: you know, just sort of bombard Isra Israelis and Israel with compliments and flattery and stuff. It just feels fake to me. Like it doesn't feel like, you know, because Israel is not a perfect community. It never will be. There is no such thing as a perfect community. So again, there has to be there also has to be stuff that you still grapple with, you know, stuff that you feel like, like, I mean, I I I I love certain things. About Arab communities, for instance, how they look after their families, you know. Like you don't have to, in my view, you don't have to basically pretend that you are someone completely who are you are not, you know. Like, like I feel like that's very, you know, again, that raises many questions for me. So you have to have a healthy relationship with who you were, who you are now, and you know, again, just just essentially being genuine in terms of your views on Israel, your views on I mean, I criticize many things even about Judaism now, although I, you know, I I converted to Judaism. There are things. And I say this to some of the most prominent rabbis. There are things, for instance, I mean I always say, for instance, you know, this image of the Ashkenazi Hasidic Jew, you know, the way an Ashken Ashkenazi Hasidic Jew dresses, is not necessarily, you know, how well it's not at all how Jews dressed in Mizrahi communities in Egypt and Iraq and elsewhere. So, you know, I feel like there is something. So, you know, again, it's about it's about the experience of how somebody presents themselves or how some how somebody views themselves and the world around them that will just make you just really see who they are. Sheri: Well, you mentioned that somebody who has really sincerely gone through an ideological change might still talk about conflicts within themselves, right? Did I understand you correctly? Khaled Hassan: Yes, absolutely. Yes, yes, yes. Sheri: Okay, now here's an interesting thing I think. Would they be willing to disclose their con inner conflicts to somebody like me or to somebody like you? Khaled Hassan: I think it depends. I think it's if someone is honest, if someone is, you know, also in the public eye, like someone is, you know, engaged in politics and public life, I think it makes sense to, you know, as as as much as the problem is some people would share certain things and not come anywhere near this. So, you know, I think some people have to in a way what I'm saying is Sheri: What do you mean? Can you Khaled Hassan: they they they they share a lot of personal aspects about their lives. But they wouldn't necessarily share, you know, the conflicts within themselves. Like, you know, they want to share a personal side, you know, of who they are that basically makes you feel like this is a saint. This is a person who's amazing, you know. Not like, you know, not like that this is a human being who also has questions and still grapples with a few issues. I think this is when becomes not really quite realistic to me, if you know what mean. so yes. Sheri: Okay, and still that person would that person be able to disclose such questions to me who I I was raised in Canada, always a Jew, now an Israeli. Very like would there be some would they be able to be open with me? Should I expect a Khaled Hassan: Think they should be. I think they should be. I think they should be. Again, if they're being open about their personal journey, but they're not being open about the fact that they at at least at some point had questions, at least at some point had doubts, at least at some point had, you know, sort of conflicts within themselves, then I would be suspicious of this. So again, you know, if you're open about your journey and if you're open about you know who you are or who you were, but you're choosing to ignore that side. Like pretending, I never had questions. I you know, I always had the answers. I think that's for me is a bit dishonest if you ask. Sheri: So in other words, I could be I should feel more confident with somebody who sees nuance and who sees who doesn't see doesn't pretend pr present a black and white story, but presents themselves as a real human being. Khaled Hassan: Yes, precisely, yes. Exactly. Yes. Because I think that's that's that's what it all comes down to. You have to be able to if you are telling your story, but you're telling your story in a certain narrative that ignores, you know, the conflicts within, that ignores the questions you had and sort of makes it seem like you were just completely, you know, had the answers, I feel like that's that's challenging. I mean, I feel like now I have many answers. There was at some point in my life I I definitely had, you know, a conflict within. I definitely had questions. I d I wasn't sure about things. but now I feel like obviously, you know, as someone who matured, I have far more answers than ever before, at least about my own identity. But the the point is, again, you cannot deny that there was at least a stage in your life where you felt like I still have questions and conflicts. Sheri: So in other words, still having questions means that they could still go either way, they could still continue forward towards change, or they could go back to the group think that they were part of before. Khaled Hassan: I don't think so. I I I I I don't really I mean there is no rule because I feel like you know having questions is actually part of change because once you start asking questions, you can never go back to the same person you were, basically. Sheri: Mm. Khaled Hassan: So you know, once you start asking questions genuinely, I don't think you can go back to you know who you were because if you ask if you're asking questions, that's a process. That means you are looking for answers and you're going to get information that will make you feel quite different about who you are, you know, and how you see the world. So I don't think you can go back to, you know, exactly the person you are. But we have seen people who have gone from, you know, anti Semitic to supporting Israel and Jews to being anti Semitic. We've seen this. We've we've seen this with, you know, one of the most prominent cases in Britain with a broadcaster. And I think quite frankly, I think that he's got mental issues. I think he's got serious issues in the sense of trauma potentially. I don't really know. But again, we have seen this happen. so it's not it's not it's not hundred percent unlikely. Sheri: Now, with all your experience, your personal experience of your o what you've gone through and your experience with meeting other people who have also undergone ideological changes, is there somebody who really fooled you, who you thought this person is really genuine, and then you discovered that they weren't? Khaled Hassan: Hmm, that's a good question actually. Someone who really fooled me. I mean fooled me in the sense of I thought they were a good person, but they turned out to be not a good person. Sheri: Well I wasn't judging it as far as good or bad, but okay. I was talking about Khaled Hassan: Well, I mean I that that's what I was asking. I I I don't think I would judge it as good or bad. I think I would judge it as Sheri: Honest versus performing. Khaled Hassan: I don't know. I think I think actually in Britain there is more of these examples. Like someone that you think, you know, stands against anti Semitism, stands against, you know, like like normal average British people, white people, you think they stand against anti Semitism, you think they stand with Israel, but actually what they're trying to do is stand against Muslims. So not with Israel, not with Jews, but against Muslims. So I I I've seen Sheri: Okay, well that Khaled Hassan: many cases where I were where where I was fooled, you know, by thinking that someone who is critical of terrorism and jihadism and all that stuff. And I felt like, okay, this this person looks like, you know, they are sort of, you know, on the right side of history. But then they revealed themselves as, no, we actually don't like Jews either. Like we don't want Jews or Muslims in this country. So, you know, they are like sort of this ultra nationalist, far right, you know, neo Nazi in a way, who's just who just believes, you know, like Britain belongs to white Christian people. That that has happened on numerous cases. but it also there are many Sheri: But but not with X movement. Khaled Hassan: cases where I'm proud sorry? Sheri: But not with Muslims or with Arabs. You haven't had the same you have don't feel you've been fooled by a Muslim or an Arab who says that they've undergone this change. Khaled Hassan: No, I don't really think so, because I think I I would know them far more than, you know, like I I would be able to tell far more than with, you know, British nationalists, for example. Like, you know, British nationalists. Yes. Yes. Sheri: Right. That's why I'm asking you. Because so what can I take? You you haven't been fooled, but I can be fooled, even then. Khaled Hassan: yes, yes. I think many people can be fooled. I think many people can be fooled because many people can sort of assume I I think actually Britain. In Britain, many people are fooled by our mayor, for instance, who's a Muslim, who, you know, who who who sort of pretends that he is a friend of the Jewish community, but in my view, he is one of the most he's one of the cleverest antisemitism in Britain. And you can see this from his stance on Israel. You can see this from how he only picks certain, you know, certain section of the Jewish community and he's very friendly with and you know it's mostly those who are critical of Israel. It's mostly those who are on the left. So I've seen those many cases where, you know, a Muslim is or someone who pretends to be a moderate is actually not really a moderate at all. I've seen the many, many such cases, yes. Sheri: Okay, so then what you're telling me is that like you you can tell I you have more sensitivities to the body language of Arabs and Muslims than I would, having grown up in Egypt. But for me, then what I would look at is who does this person associate with, together with what he declares and what who he associates with might be a better criteria for me to be able to see where he falls. Is that what you're saying? Khaled Hassan: absolutely, yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. I think that's, you know, that's Sheri: Okay. Khaled Hassan: really important. And I think I always have this sort of like test where I feel like where do they stand on Israel's right to self-defense? That's an issue. You know, that's the main issue. what did they do after October seventh? You know, like for me that's a key issue now. and also, yes, the people they associate with, because obviously you have got Man like he actually, I revealed many cases where he was linked to people who are outright Hamas supporters in the Muslim community. He never called them out. Like he never, to my knowledge, he never actually said, you know, I was linked to this person and this person is an anti Semite or this person is an extremist and I'm sorry I didn't see it, or I'm sorry. Like he never did that. Like he would never condemn them. Like there's this sort of very, very strong loyalty to the Muslim community where he would not even criticize the people who are antisemitic and supporters of Hamas. The other issue I I always find really revealing is the fact that you see no criticism whatsoever to their Muslim community. So our mayor would often say things like, London is home to everyone. We're very happy to see you know pride. We're very happy to be, you know, a capital that welcomes gays and LGBTQ plus community. But hold on a moment. Your Muslim community does the exact opposite. Why have why have you never spoken about this? Yeah, and and and it's fascinating why no one ever asks. Like, why no one ever asks, like, how does the Muslim community in Britain feel about gays? Why are you, as a Muslim leader in politics, not challenging this? You know, we are supposed to you know, they they they they want Jews to criticize Israel. But they don't even criticize the terrorism supporters within them their community. So Sheri: That's very interesting. I think that gives me something that I can hang on to. So not just listening to their declarations of once I was an antisemite, but I'm no longer. I look at what they say about their own community, what they and what they don't say about their own community and who Khaled Hassan: Yes. Sheri: they associate with. So that has that there has to be some that there has to be consistency. in their behavior, their associations, and their words. That's that's a good one. Is there another point Khaled Hassan: Yes. Sheri: that you want to bring up that I haven't asked you about, that you think is another important criterion for people like me to be able to tell the difference? Khaled Hassan: I think also, I mean, to tell the difference, I think when people change because they really want to change, there's going to be a philosophy behind it. There is going to be a deeper conversation about theology, about you know, philosophy, about morality, about ethics. You know, I feel like some people are just doing this like it's a show. Like, you know, like they don't really I've never seen because I think you know this kind of change has to happen on a deep level, you know, like you have to engage with, you know, multiple disciplines, like you have to engage with theology, like, you know, like where Sharia law comes from, where, you know, halakha comes from, where, you know, like you have to engage with that stuff because if you're not, then your change is sort of superficial or for certain interests. certain interests in the sense of you didn't really do the actual thinking process of why you need to change or why things have gone, you know, in the wrong direction. You've just decided to be the face of the moderate Muslim or, you know, whatever it is, just for potentially financial gains, for media appearances, for whatever it is. So I think, you know, for me, like I wa I I like listening to people who can actually show like this deep level of questioning that happened and engagement with these very serious issue. Because otherwise if they don't have this, it's like there hasn't been real change. It's almost like I'm taking a different political position, but I haven't actually, you know, appro I I I also have s a certain issue with some people who say like we are moderate Muslims. Like there is this specific person who says I'm a moderate Muslim. And I support Israel. Although they don't even fast during Ramadan, they hardly do anything that is related to Islam, which in my view makes you more of an atheist. You're not a moderate Muslim, you are an atheist. Do Sheri: Uh-huh. Khaled Hassan: you see the difference? There is a huge difference here. If you don't really believe in Islam, but you present yourself as a moderate Muslim, then for me that's a certain issue. Like you again. If you're not saying you're suggesting you're a devout Muslim who is moderate, but you're not really a devout Muslim. You're more you're closer to being an atheist. Sheri: So that's another kind of pretense you're saying. Okay. Khaled Hassan: Yes, yes, I think so, because I think people just maybe they don't want to admit it themselves, but I feel like they have actually abandoned Islam and they're presenting themselves as a moderate Muslim, although like they don't really go to the mosque, they don't really worship, they don't really believe in, you know, the fundamentals of Islam, which makes them an atheist, but for convenience they still say, you know, I'm a moderate Muslim. Sheri: And how what how what kind of relationship would that have to to the question that I've raised to you today, how to distinguish someone who's undergone a true ideological change? How is that related? Khaled Hassan: I think when when I think I think true ideological change is you have to be true to yourself. So you have to ask yourself, like, am I actually a devout moderate Muslim, or have Sheri: Mm-hmm. Khaled Hassan: I just chosen to stop believing in Islam and essentially be, you know, a non believer or an infidel or an atheist or whatever you want call it, but I'm still sort of clinging on to the idea that I I am a moderate Muslim. Sheri: Okay. You've given me a lot to think about here, and I hope to our viewers as well. You've shone some shone light in some aspects that I never thought of. So I really appreciate our talk, Khaled. Thank you very much. Khaled Hassan: Thank you very much for your time. Thank you.