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Return to Fox Hollow: New Victims, Darker Secrets · Murder Files Unsealed

0:00
Speaker 1: So I want to start today by having you picture
0:04
a very specific kind of American estate. Go, I'm picturing
0:07
it right. So it is a sprawling eighteen acre property
0:11
sitting in Westfield, Indiana.
0:13
Speaker 2: Oh wow, eighteen acres, yeah, massive?
0:16
Speaker 1: And Westfield is this wealthy, quiet, highly sought after suburb
0:21
just north of Indianapolis.
0:23
Speaker 2: Right, very upscale exactly.
0:25
Speaker 1: So if you were to drive past it, you would
0:27
see this grand, imposing Tudor style.
0:30
Speaker 2: Mansion, the kind of place that just screams money completely.
0:33
Speaker 1: It is surrounded by thick old growth woods, vast stretches
0:37
of open ground, maybe a stray horse or two in
0:39
the distance.
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Speaker 2: Sounds idyllic, honestly it does.
0:42
Speaker 1: It is the kind of place that projects safety, stability,
0:44
and generational wealth. But now I want you to imagine
0:47
walking into those thick woods behind the manicured lawn. Okay,
0:50
you brush aside the heavy autumn leaf litter and that
0:52
dark Indiana soil, and you find bone fragments. Oh and
0:57
not just a few straight pieces, ten thousand of them,
1:00
staggering ten thousand human bone fragments, crushed, burned, and scattered
1:04
like discarded refuse, across the backyard of a family home.
1:09
Speaker 2: It really is a genuinely staggering image to try and
1:12
hold in your mind.
1:13
Speaker 1: I mean, how do you even process that number?
1:15
Speaker 2: You really can't at first. And to put that number,
1:17
that sheer volume, into its proper historical and forensic perspective,
1:22
you have to look at national data. Right that amount
1:25
of unidentified human remains, those ten thousand fragments represents a
1:28
recovery effort second in the United States only to the
1:31
aftermath of the September eleventh attacks in New.
1:34
Speaker 1: York, Wait, really second only to nine to eleven.
1:36
Speaker 2: Yes, we are talking about a mass casualty event localized
1:40
entirely within the property lines of a single suburban home.
1:44
Speaker 1: When I first read that statistic in our source material
1:47
for today, it completely stopped me in my tracks.
1:50
Speaker 2: It's hard to wrap your head around.
1:51
Speaker 1: It totally recontextualizes everything you think you know about suburban safety.
1:55
We are, of course talking about Fox Hall.
1:57
Speaker 2: Of Farm, Yes, a very infamous location.
2:00
Speaker 1: And today for you listening, we are going on a
2:02
deep dive into the sprawling thirty year arc of a
2:05
case that is, somehow, against all conventional logic, still an
2:10
active breathing investigation today.
2:12
Speaker 2: Which is wild for a case from the nineties, It
2:14
really is.
2:15
Speaker 1: We are pulling our insights from a mountain of new research,
2:18
specifically anchored by the July eighth, twenty twenty six documentary
2:22
release from ABC News Studios and Hulu.
2:25
Speaker 2: Right the new one.
2:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's titled Return to Fox Hollow, New Victims, Darker Secrets.
2:31
Speaker 2: It's a fantastic, really thorough piece of journalism.
2:34
Speaker 1: It really is. So our mission today is to look
2:37
at this case not as some dusty closed chapter from
2:40
a nineteen nineties true crime paperback, but as a living,
2:43
evolving puzzle.
2:44
Speaker 2: And it is very much evolving right now.
2:46
Speaker 1: Right, It is a puzzle that forensic scientists, journalists, and
2:50
a surprisingly tenacious local corner are actively trying to solve
2:54
right this very minute.
2:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very much an active investigation. And to understand
2:58
where we are in twenty twenty six, we have to
2:59
lay out the blueprint. We have to understand the foundation
3:02
of the case.
3:02
Speaker 1: First, which means looking at the man himself exactly.
3:06
Speaker 2: We will be tracing the deeply unsettling double life of
3:09
the man who owned Fox Hollow Farm, Herbert Baumeister.
3:12
Speaker 1: The ultimate Jekyl and Hide, truly.
3:15
Speaker 2: But we aren't stopping at the nineteen nineties narrative. We
3:18
are going to dive deep into the modern forensic crusade
3:21
to identify the.
3:23
Speaker 1: Victims, and the science there is just mind blowing it is.
3:26
Speaker 2: We will explore exactly how the science of twenty twenty
3:29
six is breathing life back into thirty year old ash,
3:32
and perhaps most importantly, we are going to examine the
3:35
deeply unsettling new evidence.
3:37
Speaker 1: This is the part that really got me right.
3:39
Speaker 2: The newly unearthed police files that suggest Baumeister might not
3:43
have been the isolated lone wolf that history and law
3:46
enforcement made him out to be.
3:47
Speaker 1: Okay, So to understand how an eighteen acre mass grave
3:50
goes unnoticed while kids are literally playing in the front yard,
3:53
we have to start with the facade of.
3:55
Speaker 2: Fox Hollow, The perfect suburban cover.
3:57
Speaker 1: Exactly introduces to Herbert Richard baumi So.
4:00
Speaker 2: He was born in nineteen forty seven. He marries a
4:02
woman named Julie Satter in nineteen seventy one, and they
4:05
have three kids.
4:07
Speaker 1: Very conventional setup.
4:08
Speaker 2: Very he presents as this highly successful Midwestern businessman. In
4:14
the late nineteen eighties, he actually founds a chain of
4:17
thrift stores in the Indianapolis area called Sabalot.
4:21
Speaker 1: You know, the choice of profession is actually a fascinating
4:24
psychological detail when you consider how he was perceived by
4:28
the community. Oh, absolutely, Like he's an entrepreneur, yes, but
4:31
he's dealing in the business of discarded.
4:33
Speaker 2: Things, right, that's a great point.
4:35
Speaker 1: He buys what others have thrown away, organizes it, and
4:38
resells it. But more than that, he is deeply embedded
4:41
in the public sphere.
4:42
Speaker 2: He is. He's married with a family, living in this
4:45
massive Tudor style mansion.
4:47
Speaker 1: Right to his neighbors, to his business associates, to the
4:50
parents of his kids' friends. He is the absolute picture
4:54
of conventional upper middle class stability.
4:56
Speaker 2: He is a community pillar, or at least he played
4:58
one very well.
4:59
Speaker 1: But while he is playing the role of the quirky,
5:01
successful thrist store king of the suburbs by day, by night,
5:04
he is operating in the gay bars of Indianapolis under
5:07
a completely different.
5:08
Speaker 2: Identity, a totally separate life.
5:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is introducing himself to people as Brian Smart
5:14
Ran Smart. Yeah. It is this classic Doctor Jekyl in
5:18
Mister Hyde scenario, but playing out in real life in
5:21
the American Midwest.
5:23
Speaker 2: And he is specifically targeting vulnerable men. Yes, he's bringing
5:27
them back to Fox Hollow Farm, murdering them and disposing
5:31
of their bodies just hundreds of yards from where his
5:33
wife and children are sleeping.
5:35
Speaker 1: I mean, the sheer audacity of that compartmentalization is what
5:39
forensic psychologists often point to when discussing Baumeister. Right.
5:42
Speaker 2: Oh, definitely, the psychological walls he had to build to
5:46
maintain this dual existence are almost incomprehensible.
5:50
Speaker 1: Is terrifying.
5:51
Speaker 2: He is bringing this incredibly dark, violent reality back to
5:55
his sanctuary. Most predators of this scale attempt to create
5:59
geogo graphic distance between their crimes and their family life.
6:02
Speaker 1: Right, you'd think he would have a secondary.
6:04
Speaker 2: Location exactly, but Bawmeister essentially merged them.
6:07
Speaker 1: And that merging is exactly what leads to the unraveling
6:10
of the whole thing.
6:11
Speaker 2: It was bound to happen eventually.
6:12
Speaker 1: The way this starts to fall apart honestly reads like
6:15
a scene cut from a horror movie because it was
6:18
deemed too unbelievable.
6:19
Speaker 2: It really does so.
6:20
Speaker 1: It is the mid nineteen nineties. Bowmeister's teenage son is
6:25
out playing in the woods on the property, exploring the
6:28
estate and He looks down and finds a human.
6:31
Speaker 2: Skull just sitting right there and.
6:33
Speaker 1: Some scattered bones, and he actually brings this up to
6:36
his parents.
6:36
Speaker 2: He does. He brings it to them, and Baumeister's response
6:40
is a terrifying masterclass in deflection and cognitive dissonance.
6:44
Speaker 1: Oh totally.
6:45
Speaker 2: He tells his wife and son, Oh, those are just
6:47
from medical skeleton.
6:48
Speaker 1: A medical skeleton. Unbelievable, right.
6:51
Speaker 2: He explains that his own father had been a physician,
6:53
which was true, and he claims this is just an
6:56
old anatomical.
6:57
Speaker 1: Prop, like a teaching skeleton.
6:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, teaching skeleton that somehow got left out in the
7:02
yard or buried in the dirt years ago.
7:04
Speaker 1: Okay, wait, hold on, Yeah, a teenage boy finds an
7:07
actual human skull in the dirt of a wealthy suburban
7:11
backyard and the explanation is, oh, that is just grandpa's
7:14
old medical skeleton. That was the excuse, and they just
7:17
go back to eating dinner. How does anyone accept that explanation.
7:20
Speaker 2: I know it sounds crazy now, but you have to
7:22
view it through the lens of normalcy bias.
7:24
Speaker 1: Normalcy bias.
7:25
Speaker 2: Right in the mid nineteen nineties, before the explosion of
7:28
twenty four to seven true crime media before everyone had
7:31
a smartphone with access to a million documentaries. Your brain
7:35
simply does not jump to my husband is a serial
7:38
killer operating a mass grave in the backyard.
7:41
Speaker 1: I guess that's fair. You don't want to believe that.
7:42
Speaker 2: Right, Your brain scrambles for the most rational, least world
7:46
shattering explanation available.
7:48
Speaker 1: So his father was a doctor.
7:49
Speaker 2: Exactly doctors have skeletons. Therefore the skeleton must be a
7:54
medical prop It is a defense mechanism by the family
7:57
as much as it is a manipulation by bounty.
8:00
Speaker 1: That makes a chilling kind of sense. Yeah, you want
8:02
to believe the lie because the truth destroys your entire life, precisely,
8:06
But the marriage was already buckling under the weight of
8:08
his erratic behavior anyway. By nineteen ninety six, Julie Baummeister
8:13
has had enough. She files for.
8:15
Speaker 2: Divorce, a huge turning point.
8:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, and crucially, while Herbert is away on a trip,
8:20
she allows the police to come onto the estate and
8:21
conduct a search of the property.
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Speaker 2: And that search is the true inflection point of this
8:26
entire saga, because once law enforcement and subsequently forensic anthropologists
8:31
step onto that eighteen acre property in nineteen ninety six
8:34
and begins systematically turning over the soil. The true scale
8:38
of the horror becomes impossible to ignore.
8:41
Speaker 1: You can't explain it away with a medical prop excuse anymore.
8:44
Speaker 2: No, absolutely not. They spend weeks metigulously recovering these charred,
8:50
fragmented bones from the woods.
8:52
Speaker 1: It really is like that moment where you pull a
8:54
loose thread on a heavy, expensive winter coat expecting just
8:57
a tiny snack.
8:58
Speaker 2: Great analogy, yeah, But instead.
9:00
Speaker 1: The entire garment just rapidly unrawls and falls apart right
9:03
in front of you. The facade didn't just crack, it
9:05
completely vaporized. It did, But the physical reality of the
9:09
crime scene is what really gets me. How do you
9:11
hide a mass grave ten thousand bone fragments at a
9:14
family home without the neighbors smelling something or the kids
9:17
stumbling upon it much earlier.
9:19
Speaker 2: Well, it speaks heavily to the extreme isolation of the property.
9:22
Eighteen acres of dense woods provides a.
9:24
Speaker 1: Lot of covert true, that is a lot of land.
9:26
Speaker 2: But it also speaks directly to his disposal methods. These
9:30
were not whole intact remains buried in shallow graves right.
9:34
Speaker 1: As the sources meticulously entail, these fragments were heavily burned,
9:38
they were mechanically crushed, and they were widely scattered across
9:42
a large area.
9:43
Speaker 2: So he was actively trying to destroy the evidence, actively.
9:46
Speaker 1: And aggressively trying to destroy the biological evidence. And the
9:49
moment he realizes the police are closing in in July
9:52
of nineteen ninety six, Bombmeister makes a run for it.
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He bolt, he flees across the border into Ontario, Canada,
9:59
and he dies by suicide in a local park before
10:01
he can ever be arrested, questioned, or put on trial.
10:04
Speaker 2: He takes the absolute coward's way out. He really did,
10:08
essentially taking his darkest secrets to the grave and leaving
10:11
his family, the victims' families, and law enforcement holding the bag.
10:16
Speaker 1: And because he died, the justice system's typical mechanism for
10:19
finding the truth a trial of vanish right.
10:21
Speaker 2: There's no courtroom drama to lay out the facts exactly.
10:24
Speaker 1: Which leaves us with the science. And we really need
10:26
to emphasize the severe limitations of nineteen ninety six forensic technology.
10:31
Speaker 2: Oh for sure, if you look at the history of
10:33
forensic science, nineteen ninety six is practically the dark Ages
10:36
compared to the capabilities we have today in twenty twenty six.
10:39
It really is. Law enforcement in Hamilton County was suddenly
10:42
presented with a scene that resembled a localized mass disaster
10:46
like a plane crash, a commercial plane crash essentially, but
10:49
in a backyard. The condition of the remains, calcified by
10:53
extreme heat and shattered made comprehensive identification extraordinarily difficult.
10:59
Speaker 1: So what could they actually do back then?
11:01
Speaker 2: With the rudimentary technology of the nineteen nineties, They managed
11:04
to make a handful of initial identifications, but it was
11:07
a monumental struggle.
11:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, the sources list these early named victims, and I'll
11:11
want to make sure we pause and say their names
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for you listening, because these were real men with families, absolutely,
11:17
Roger Allen Goodlett, Alan Wayne Rossard, Steven Sperlin Hale, Michael
11:22
Frederick Kern, John Lee, Johnny Bayer, Jeffrey Allen Jones, Richard Douglas,
11:30
Hamilton Junior, and Manuel Rezendez.
11:33
Speaker 2: Those initial eight identifications were made primarily through traditional dental
11:37
records and the very early rudimentary DNA technology that was
11:40
available at the time.
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Speaker 1: Just eight out of an estimated twenty five.
11:43
Speaker 2: Right after that initial push, the criminal investigation effectively hit
11:47
a massive brick wall because the killer was dead. Yes,
11:51
the perpetrator was dead, so there was no prosecutor demanding
11:54
evidence for a trial, right, and the remaining thousands of
11:57
bone fragments were simply too small, too degraded, and two
12:01
burned for nineteen nineties science to extract any viable data from.
12:05
Speaker 1: So what do they do with them?
12:06
Speaker 2: They were cataloged, placed into cardboard boxes, and sent to
12:10
long term evidence storage.
12:11
Speaker 1: Where they sat on shells, collecting dust for twenty five years.
12:15
Speaker 2: Just sitting there.
12:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, which brings up a really painful but necessary systemic question.
12:21
It does to understand how someone could murder people on
12:25
this scale authorities estimate up to twenty five men over
12:28
several years and accumulate ten thousand bone fragments in his
12:33
backyard without triggering a massive, coordinated citywide panic.
12:38
Speaker 2: We have to look at the era, right.
12:39
Speaker 1: We have to look at exactly who he was targeting
12:42
and the specific era he was operating in.
12:44
Speaker 2: This is crucial context. The target profile Baumeister honed in
12:47
on was highly specific, young gay man. Yes, he was
12:50
hunting young men, the vast majority of them gay in
12:53
the late nineteen eighties and early to mid nineteen nineties,
12:56
And importantly, many of these men were already living on
12:59
the margins of society.
13:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, the sources make a point to note that these
13:03
were guys who were often struggling with severe housing instability.
13:07
Speaker 2: Many were yes, some.
13:08
Speaker 1: Had substance abuse issues. Many were completely estranged from their
13:11
biological families because they had come out, and this was
13:14
an era where that often meant being entirely cut off
13:17
from your support system.
13:18
Speaker 2: Exactly. You have to contextualize this within the systemic blind
13:21
spots of the era. Right, this is pre widespread Internet.
13:25
There are no cell phones pinging cell towers to leave
13:28
a digital.
13:28
Speaker 1: Footprint, no GPS tracking.
13:30
Speaker 2: No expansive DNA databases. But more fundamentally, this was during
13:34
a time when the LGBTQ plus community in places like
13:38
the Midwest faced intense structural marginalization.
13:42
Speaker 1: The AIDS epidemic was a huge factor too.
13:44
Speaker 2: The AIDS epidemic was still a dominant stigmatizing force when
13:47
these men vanished. Their disappearances simply didn't generate the kind
13:51
of coordinated, multi agency law enforcement response we might expect
13:55
today for a missing person.
13:57
Speaker 1: I hear that, but I have to stop you there
13:59
and ask them be how of our listeners?
14:00
Speaker 2: Sure? Go ahead?
14:01
Speaker 1: Twenty five men, up to two dozen men vanishing from
14:05
the exact same social circles, the exact same handful of
14:08
gay bars in Indianapolis.
14:10
Speaker 2: I know, it sounds impossible.
14:12
Speaker 1: Even without cell phones. How is it mathematically possible that
14:15
non enforcement does not form a massive task force. How
14:18
does that not trigger alarms in every police precinct in
14:21
the state.
14:22
Speaker 2: The tragedy is that it did trigger massive alarms, but
14:25
only within the community itself.
14:27
Speaker 1: Right the community mew friends.
14:28
Speaker 2: Noticed the empty barstools, partners noticed the absences. Families who
14:33
were still in contact did file missing person.
14:35
Speaker 1: Reports, so the police knew they were missing.
14:38
Speaker 2: The failure wasn't that no one noticed. The failure was
14:40
how the system processed the information. Police often investigated these
14:44
missing persons as isolated individual.
14:47
Speaker 1: Cases, like they were just unrelated runaways.
14:49
Speaker 2: Exactly. They'd classified them as runaways or assumed they had
14:52
just moved to another city, which was common in transient communities. Wow,
14:55
they failed to connect the dots to see the overarching
14:58
pattern of a single highly organized predator. Predators like Bowmeister
15:04
are deeply opportunistic.
15:06
Speaker 1: They know who to target.
15:07
Speaker 2: Yes, they specifically weaponize society's apathy toward marginalized groups. He
15:13
operated with impunity because he calculated correctly that the systemic
15:16
response to missing gay men in the early nineties would
15:19
be slow, fragmented, and largely indifferent.
15:23
Speaker 1: And what makes it so infuriating is that it wasn't
15:26
like there were zero warnings to law enforcement.
15:28
Speaker 2: Oh, there were warnings.
15:29
Speaker 1: There was a massive neon flashing early tip from a
15:33
man named Tony Harris.
15:34
Speaker 2: Yes, the Tony Harris tip is heartbreaking in hindsight.
15:37
Speaker 1: The sources detail how Harris actually goes to the authorities
15:41
and reports that a man calling himself Brian Smart had
15:44
nearly strangled him to death with a pool hose during
15:47
a sexual encounter, a horrifying ordeal. Harris survives this. He
15:51
does his own sleuthing, and he eventually identifies the license
15:54
plate of Brian Smart, leading him to realize this guy
15:57
is actually Herbert.
15:59
Speaker 2: Bellmeister and gives this to the police.
16:01
Speaker 1: He hands this to them. He basically hands them the
16:04
killer on a silver platter.
16:05
Speaker 2: He did, and yet investigators at the time determined they
16:09
lacked sufficient legal grounds to obtain a search warrant for
16:13
the Fox Hollow property based on that identification, Alan, are
16:17
you kidding me? When you combine the strict legal threshold
16:20
for probable cause with the underlying lack of institutional urgency
16:24
given the demographic of the victims, the result is paralysis.
16:28
Speaker 1: System just froze.
16:29
Speaker 2: The investigation stalled completely. Baumeister remained free to kill until
16:34
his own wife inadvertently opened the door for police years later.
16:38
Speaker 1: It is a profound institutional failure.
16:41
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
16:41
Speaker 1: Society essentially failed these men in life and then failed
16:45
them again in depth by putting them in cardboard boxes
16:47
for a quarter of a century.
16:48
Speaker 2: Which brings us to the modern era.
16:50
Speaker 1: Right, Because what makes this deep dive so compelling, which
16:54
shifts this from a purely tragic history lesson into a
16:58
story of incredible modern Reziliacellians, is that a localized crusade
17:02
in the twenty twenties is finally attempting to write those
17:05
historical wrongs using cutting edge science.
17:08
Speaker 2: And that crusade is led by one very specific.
17:11
Speaker 1: Person entered Jeff Jellison.
17:13
Speaker 2: Yes, Jess Jellison enters the narrative in a maybe way
17:16
when he is elected as the Hamilton County Corner in
17:19
twenty twenty two, so just recently right now. Typically, an
17:22
incoming corner inherits the current case load and manages the
17:26
day to day operations of the.
17:27
Speaker 1: County, like recent accidents and homicides exactly.
17:30
Speaker 2: But Jellison makes a monumental, highly unusual decision. Instead of
17:35
letting sleeping dogs lie, he decides to look backward.
17:38
Speaker 1: He literally unboxes a thirty year old cold case.
17:41
Speaker 2: He physically goes into the county storage facility. He locates
17:44
these dusty boxes of bones that have been sitting in
17:46
the dark since nineteen ninety six, and he officially reopens
17:50
the identification effort for Fox Hollow Farm.
17:52
Speaker 1: He's a local county corner, right like. He doesn't have
17:55
a massive federal budget, not at all, so he doesn't
17:57
do it alone. The methodological stratum employees is this incredible,
18:03
massive collaborative effort.
18:05
Speaker 2: It had to be collaborative.
18:06
Speaker 1: He starts reaching out and partnering with the Indiana State
18:08
Police Laboratory, the University of Indianapolis Human Identification Center, the
18:13
University of North Texas Center for Human Identification.
18:16
Speaker 2: UNT is a major player in.
18:18
Speaker 1: This and a private forensic lab out of Texas called
18:20
Athrum that specializes in degraded DNA. He even brings in
18:25
the FBI.
18:26
Speaker 2: It's a masterclass and interagency cooperation. Jellison realized quickly that
18:31
the scale of the degradation required the absolute bleeding edge
18:34
of forensic science.
18:35
Speaker 1: The stuff they're doing now is just wild.
18:38
Speaker 2: The techniques they are applying today are light years ahead
18:40
of what was possible in nineteen ninety six. We are
18:44
talking about advanced str analysis, which is shorthandem repeat analysis,
18:48
mitochondrial DNA testing, and highly complex forensic genetic genealogy.
18:53
Speaker 1: Okay, let's unpack those terms because it sounds like science fiction.
18:56
But this is the actual physical labor being done on
18:58
these francs. Yes, let's break it down for you listening
19:01
trying to graft the sheer physical difficulty of what these
19:04
scientists are attempting to do. I want to expand on
19:07
an analogy. Go for imagine someone hands you a ten
19:10
thousand piece jigsaw puzzle. Okay, but before they gave it
19:14
to you, they put the pieces through an industrial blender,
19:17
tearing them into jagged shards.
19:19
Speaker 2: A nightmare puzzle, right.
19:21
Speaker 1: And then they set those shards on fire, turning half
19:24
of them to ash. And to top it off, they
19:26
threw away the box, so you don't even have the
19:28
picture on the front to guide you. That is the
19:30
physical reality of these bone fragments.
19:33
Speaker 2: That analogy perfectly captures the mechanical challenge here.
19:36
Speaker 1: It's just so daunting.
19:37
Speaker 2: Let's look at the biology of why. That is our
19:40
genetic blueprint. Our nuclear DNA is housed inside the nucleus
19:44
of ourselves. It's what makes you you. Okay, But nuclear
19:47
DNA is surprisingly fragile when exposed to extreme environmental.
19:51
Speaker 1: Stress, like being burned in a fire pit.
19:53
Speaker 2: Exactly when bone is subjected to massive sustained heat, the
19:58
heat physically shatters the strands. So when scientists try to
20:02
perform str analysis, which relies on reading specific repeating patterns
20:06
in long strands of nuclear DNA, they often find nothing but.
20:10
Speaker 1: Static because the strands are too broken to read exactly.
20:13
So if the main DNA is destroyed by the fire,
20:16
how are they getting any matches at all today?
20:19
Speaker 2: That is where the brilliance of mitochondrial DNA testing comes in.
20:22
Speaker 1: Oh okay, think of the.
20:23
Speaker 2: Cell's nucleus like the main power grid of a building.
20:26
The fire destroyed the power grid, but floating around outside
20:30
the nucleus in the fluid of the cell are mitochondria,
20:33
the energy factories.
20:34
Speaker 1: Of the cell, right the powerhouse of the cell.
20:36
Speaker 2: Exactly, they have their own tiny loop of DNA. Think
20:39
of them as thousands of little backup generators. Even if
20:42
the main power grid is completely destroyed, there are so
20:45
many of these backup generators that a few of them
20:47
might survive the fire.
20:48
Speaker 1: That is incredible.
20:50
Speaker 2: Scientists can extract that mitochondrial DNA the catches. Mitochondrial DNA
20:55
is only inherited from the mother, so it doesn't identify
20:57
the exact individual, but it firmly I do identifies the
21:00
maternal family line.
21:02
Speaker 1: Which gives them a foothold, a huge foothold. And they
21:05
take that foothold and combine it with genetic genealogy, mapping
21:08
out sprawling family trees to narrow down who this person
21:12
could possibly be. It's painstaking work, but against all odds,
21:17
this agonizingly slow process is actually working.
21:20
Speaker 2: It is yielding results.
21:22
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty three, they successfully identified Allan Lee Livingstone,
21:26
a young man who had been missing since nineteen ninety three.
21:29
That was the first major breakthrough of Jellison's renewed.
21:32
Speaker 2: Effort a huge victory for his family, and then.
21:35
Speaker 1: Just recently, in twenty twenty five, they identified Daniel Thomas Hallerin.
21:39
Speaker 2: The identification of Daniel Hallerin is a particularly poignant moment
21:42
in the source material.
21:43
Speaker 1: It really stuck with me.
21:44
Speaker 2: It highlights the generational trauma caused by Baumeister. Hallerin had
21:48
never been formally reported missing in a way that cross
21:51
referenced with the Fox Hollow investigation back in the nineties,
21:54
So he just vanished. He essentially fell through the bureaucratic cracks.
21:57
Speaker 1: Entirely, yes, and the documentary spends time highlighting the story
22:02
of his daughter, Coral Hallerin.
22:04
Speaker 2: Oh Her story is devastating.
22:06
Speaker 1: She was just a young girl when he vanished. She
22:09
grew up with absolutely zero answers, just a void where
22:13
her father should.
22:13
Speaker 2: Have been thirty two years of waiting.
22:16
Speaker 1: She talks about how she intentionally kept her maiden name
22:20
Hallarin for thirty two years. She'd never changed it when
22:24
she got older, holding onto this quiet, desperate hope that
22:27
one day her father would get his life together try
22:30
to find her, and he'd need to know what name
22:32
to look for in the phone book.
22:33
Speaker 2: It humanizes the collateral damage of these crimes so powerfully.
22:37
Speaker 1: It really does.
22:38
Speaker 2: The documentary team captures the raw, unfiltered moment she finally
22:42
receives the news that her father's remains were among those
22:45
in the boxes.
22:45
Speaker 1: Such an intense moment.
22:47
Speaker 2: She says, and I quote, I waited thirty two years
22:49
for this. Unfortunately, this is how I have to get
22:51
him back.
22:52
Speaker 1: Wow.
22:52
Speaker 2: He was born in nineteen sixty two, meaning he would
22:54
have been only about thirty years old at the time
22:56
of his murder.
22:57
Speaker 1: That quote, this is how I have to get him back.
23:00
It just sits heavy in your chest.
23:02
Speaker 2: It really grounds the whole investigation.
23:04
Speaker 1: It strips away the clinical nature of bone fragments and
23:07
DNA extraction and brings the agonizing human reality right back
23:11
to the forefront.
23:12
Speaker 2: We can't lose sight of that.
23:13
Speaker 1: But as much as we celebrate these incredible identifications by
23:17
the coroner's office, Jealoson gives this very sobering, very grounded
23:22
reality check in the documentary.
23:24
Speaker 2: He has to manage expectations.
23:26
Speaker 1: He emphasizes that, out of the ten thousand fragments currently
23:29
sitting in his custody, they have only been able to
23:32
successfully test about two hundred.
23:33
Speaker 2: Of them so far, two hundred out of ten thousand.
23:36
Speaker 1: That is barely a dent.
23:37
Speaker 2: Which means there are thousands upon thousands of fragments left.
23:41
The work is painstakingly slow, incredibly expensive, and fraught with
23:46
technical failures.
23:47
Speaker 1: But Jellison's crusade didn't just yield DNA matches and bring
23:50
closure to a few families, did it.
23:52
Speaker 2: No, it sparks something much bigger.
23:54
Speaker 1: It yielded massive global media attention, and those headlines, those
23:59
docs documentaries acted as a catalyst that shook loose an
24:03
avalanche of new, deeply unsettling information.
24:06
Speaker 2: Which brings us to the docuseary's effect.
24:08
Speaker 1: Let's transition into how media is literally shaping this investigation.
24:12
You have to talk about that effect.
24:13
Speaker 2: It's a huge part of the story now.
24:14
Speaker 1: In twenty twenty five, Hulu releases a series called The
24:17
Fox Hollow Murders Playground of a serial killer, and it
24:21
absolutely explodes, massive hit. It becomes ABC News Studio's most
24:26
watched Hulu documentary of the entire year based on ours streamed.
24:30
It earns an Emmy nomination. It puts the case in
24:32
front of millions of eyeballs.
24:34
Speaker 2: But more than the viewership. It was the response right.
24:37
Speaker 1: Most importantly for the investigation, it generates over five hundred
24:41
new tips, emails, and direct messages to the Coroner's office
24:44
and to local law enforcement.
24:46
Speaker 2: And this represents a massive fundamental shift in how we
24:49
understand the role of true crime media today. Totally ten
24:52
years ago, documentaries were largely passive retellings of historical events.
24:56
They summarized what had already been adjudicated.
24:59
Speaker 1: They just told you what happened.
25:00
Speaker 2: Today, productions like the Hulu series are active participants in
25:03
ongoing investigations. Those five hundred tips helped bridge a crucial
25:08
glaring gap between the raw forensic science the bones Jealouson
25:12
is working with and the criminal investigation, which is the
25:15
narrative of what actually happened on that property, who was there,
25:19
and how it was done.
25:20
Speaker 1: And the sheer volume of that new information leads directly
25:24
to the July twenty twenty six follow up special that
25:28
is the core of our deep dive today, Return to
25:30
Fox Hollow, New Victims, Darker Secrets, directed by Alex.
25:35
Speaker 2: Dublonski, Such a crucial follow up.
25:37
Speaker 1: And the central, highly controversial theory of this new documentary
25:41
is right there in the title The Darker Secrets, the
25:43
big uncomfortable question that is suddenly being asked out loud.
25:47
Did Herbert Baumeister act alone?
25:49
Speaker 2: It is a question that Corner Jeff Jellison himself has
25:52
begun to raise.
25:53
Speaker 1: Publicly, which is saying something when you look at.
25:55
Speaker 2: The evidence, objectively stripped of the preconceived narrative. He points
25:59
to the sh the sheer volume of the remains, He
26:02
looks at the brutal logistics of the disposal process, and
26:05
he legitimately questions how one man, operating entirely in secret
26:09
could manage the physical execution of that scale of destruction alone.
26:13
Speaker 1: I have to say, I think is brilliant that they
26:15
are finally asking this.
26:16
Speaker 2: It's long overdue because.
26:18
Speaker 1: The whole lone Wolf serial killer myth needs to be dismantled.
26:24
We are so deeply conditioned by pop culture, by Hollywood
26:27
thrillers and paperback novels, to view these killers as these isolated,
26:32
omnipotent evil geniuses who operate entirely in a vacuum.
26:36
Speaker 2: The media loves the evil genius.
26:38
Speaker 1: Trope, but step back and think about the physical logistics
26:41
at Fox Hollow, ten thousand, burned, crushed, fragments. The physical
26:45
labor required to achieve that is staggering.
26:48
Speaker 2: It really is.
26:48
Speaker 1: You have to murder a grown man, then you have
26:50
to move a dead weight, then you have to dig
26:52
a massive pit.
26:52
Speaker 2: And then you have to generate heat. Burning a human
26:55
body to the point of calcification requires an immense amount
26:59
of sustained extreme heat. We are talking thousands of degrees
27:04
for hours on end.
27:05
Speaker 1: You have to chop cords of wood, keep a massive
27:08
fire stoked for hours, perhaps use chemical accelerants.
27:12
Speaker 2: Its industrial level work, and.
27:13
Speaker 1: Then once it's burned, you have to physically smash the
27:17
remaining bones and scatter them across acres of land. Right
27:20
doing that repeatedly up to two dozen times over several years,
27:24
without drawing the suspicion of neighbors or your wife or
27:28
your children who might return home unexpectedly.
27:30
Speaker 2: It's almost impossible to picture.
27:32
Speaker 1: It completely strains credulity that there wasn't a supply chain
27:35
of horror here. It seems impossible there wasn't at least
27:38
some level of complicity or another person who knew something
27:41
or helped with something.
27:42
Speaker 2: It is a profound logistical argument. The physical evidence points
27:46
toward a workload that suggests assistance exactly. And what makes
27:50
this new documentary so explosive is that the skepticism isn't
27:54
just internet sleuth speculating on message boards.
27:56
Speaker 1: No, they have receipts.
27:57
Speaker 2: The documentary roots this accomplice theory in very specific names,
28:01
eyewitness accounts and long buried police files. This isn't just theory,
28:07
there's a messy, complicated paper trail.
28:09
Speaker 1: Okay, let's dive into those specific names. The documentary introduces,
28:13
or in some cases, reintroduces some highly polarizing figures who
28:18
challenge the accepted history.
28:19
Speaker 2: Mark Goodyear is a big one.
28:21
Speaker 1: First is Mark Goodyear. He was a central figure in
28:24
the twenty twenty five series and remains a key focus
28:27
in twenty twenty six. Goodyear claims to have survived an
28:31
encounter with Baumeister.
28:32
Speaker 2: Which is incredible in itself, but more.
28:34
Speaker 1: Chillingly for this new theory. He describes having first hand
28:38
knowledge of the body disposal process. He claims to have
28:41
actually seen bodies being burned in a pit on the
28:43
Fox Hollow property.
28:44
Speaker 2: Now, the documentary team treats Goodyear carefully, as they must,
28:48
they explicitly frame him as a polarizing figure whose claims
28:51
require intense scrutiny.
28:53
Speaker 1: Why is that? Why not just take a survivor at
28:55
their word.
28:55
Speaker 2: Because of the fragility of memory and trauma When you
28:58
are dealing with thirty year old memories from a highly traumatizing,
29:02
life threatening event, cognitive science tells us that memory is
29:06
inherently malleable.
29:07
Speaker 1: That makes sense.
29:08
Speaker 2: Over three decades, memories can combine, shift, or be influenced
29:13
by media coverage. Investigators and journalists have to treat him
29:16
as a potential key witness, yes, but they know they
29:20
desperately need corroborating physical or documentary evidence to back up
29:24
his specific claims about witnessing the disposal.
29:27
Speaker 1: But that's the twist. There is corroborating paper evidence regarding accomplices.
29:32
Speaker 2: There is surprisingly, maybe.
29:33
Speaker 1: Not directly linking to Goodyear's specific night at the fire pit,
29:37
but firmly linking to the idea that Baumeister was not operating.
29:40
Speaker 2: In a vacuum right the IPD files.
29:42
Speaker 1: The documentary unerks a name from the old original Indianapolis
29:45
Police Department files from the nineteen nineties, Thomas Ackerman.
29:49
Speaker 2: Yes, the Thomas Ackerman connection is where the lone wolf
29:51
theory really starts to fracture under its own weight.
29:54
Speaker 1: It really does.
29:55
Speaker 2: According to these IPD files, which were meticulously reviewed by
29:58
the documentary team, Ackerman's name appears repeatedly in direct association
30:03
with more than one of the specific men who are
30:05
later identified among the dead at Fox Hollow Farm.
30:08
Speaker 1: The specifics of the Ackerman connection are mind blowing to me.
30:12
Speaker 2: It's hard to ignore.
30:13
Speaker 1: The police records show that Thomas Afferman actually bailed Steven
30:17
spurl and Hale out of jail. Hale is one of
30:20
the confirmed victims whose remains were found burned on Ballmeister's.
30:24
Speaker 2: Estate, direct contact prior to the murder, and it.
30:28
Speaker 1: Doesn't stop there. Ackerman's name is also directly connected in
30:32
police files to the missing person report for Richard Douglas
30:35
Hamilton Junior, who is another confirmed Fox Hollow victim.
30:39
Speaker 2: The sheer volume of material on Ackerman in these historical
30:42
police files is notable. It isn't a passing mention. It
30:45
is a documented intersection with multiple victims prior to their.
30:49
Speaker 1: Deaths, which is a huge red flag.
30:51
Speaker 2: And this raises the most glaring, uncomfortable question of the
30:54
entire deep dive. If this paper trail existed in the
30:57
IPD files, before the bones were even found in a
31:00
ninety six. Why wasn't it fully pursued?
31:03
Speaker 1: That is exactly what I was yelling at my screen.
31:05
Speaker 2: It's frustrating.
31:06
Speaker 1: We have good years, thirty year old memories over here,
31:10
standing right next to Ackerman's actual ink on paper trail
31:13
and official police files. Why was a paper trail that
31:16
points to a wider network seemingly just ignored or shoved
31:20
in a drawer.
31:21
Speaker 2: It's a complex failure, and it comes down to a
31:24
mix of bureaucratic inertia, the legal mechanics of cold cases,
31:29
and frankly institutional embarrassment.
31:32
Speaker 1: Embarrassment.
31:32
Speaker 2: Sure, when Herbert Baumeister fled to Canada and committed suicide,
31:37
the immediate intense pressure on the investigation essentially evaporated overnight.
31:42
In many jurisdictions, when the primary offender dies, the case
31:45
is prematurely designated as closed.
31:47
Speaker 1: So just because the main guy is dead, they just
31:50
pack it up like case closed, we got them, let's
31:52
go home.
31:53
Speaker 2: Essentially, yes, the budget is immediately cut, the task forces disbanded,
31:57
the manpower is reassigned to fresh active home homicides. Wow,
32:01
potential accomplices are left completely unchecked because there is no
32:04
longer an impending trial to prepare for. The prosecutor doesn't
32:08
need to build a flawless.
32:09
Speaker 1: Narrative anymore, so they just stopped looking.
32:12
Speaker 2: Furthermore, pursuing accomplices might have required the police to publicly
32:15
admit they had missed massive clues like the Tony Harris
32:18
tip or the Ackerman connections years earlier. Closing the book
32:23
with Baumeister suicide was the path of least institutional resistance.
32:27
Speaker 1: It is the ultimate cover up by apathy. Unfortunately, Yes,
32:31
and we also have to consider the investigative gaps from
32:34
nineteen ninety six that the documentary highlights. We are talking
32:37
about missing physical evidence that is seemingly vanished from locup.
32:42
Speaker 2: Missing evidence is a huge problem.
32:44
Speaker 1: We are talking about massive gaps in the chain of
32:46
custody for certain items recovered from the estate. There are
32:49
different accounts from officers in the mid nineties regarding what
32:53
was actually observed on the property during the initial search.
32:57
Speaker 2: The current owner of the property, Rob Graves, and a
33:00
former local reporter who covered the case extensively, Laura Musil,
33:03
are both featured prominently in the special.
33:05
Speaker 1: They bring up so many.
33:06
Speaker 2: Good points and they point out very clearly using original
33:09
documentation that not all the evidence collected in nineteen ninety
33:12
six has been fully accounted for. Today items are missing.
33:16
Speaker 1: Which puts corner Jeff Jellison in an incredibly delicate, almost
33:19
impossible position. He is the one on earthing all this,
33:23
but he's not.
33:23
Speaker 2: A detective exactly. He has had to establish a very strict,
33:28
legally defined boundary for.
33:30
Speaker 1: His offers because he can investigate.
33:31
Speaker 2: Crimes right his mandate, his legal job description as the
33:35
county coroner is strictly the identification of the dead. He
33:39
is trying to put names to bone fragments. That's his
33:42
whole job, criminal charges, investigating the historical footprint of Thomas
33:46
Ackerman or interrogating Mark Goodyear's claims. That is entirely the
33:50
province of law enforcement agencies like the police and the
33:53
prosecutor's office. Jellison gathers the tips, he forwards them to
33:57
the police, but he has to constantly force himself to say,
34:00
focused on the bones in front of him.
34:02
Speaker 1: It is a massive burden for one office to carry.
34:04
Speaker 2: It is a heavy load.
34:05
Speaker 1: And while the search for accomplices is inherently looking backward,
34:08
digging into dusty police files, interviewing aging witnesses about things
34:13
they saw in the nineties. The search to identify the
34:15
remaining victims is looking squarely into the future of forensic technology.
34:20
Speaker 2: The science is where the hope is.
34:22
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the danting road ahead for Jellison in
34:24
his team.
34:25
Speaker 2: The backlog they are facing is almost insurmountable. Thousands of
34:29
fragments remain completely untested.
34:32
Speaker 1: Because of the cost and time.
34:34
Speaker 2: And as we discussed, it's not just a simple matter
34:36
of putting a bone in a machine and waiting for
34:38
a ding. It is a matter of severe funding constraints.
34:42
Corner's offices are not budgeted for multi million dollar genealogical
34:46
deep dives. There are massive laboratory backlogs at places like
34:51
Offram and unt and the highly degraded calcified condition of
34:55
the bones themselves means many extraction attempts yield zero results.
35:00
This investigation is going to be measured in years, possibly decades,
35:04
not months.
35:04
Speaker 1: And what blew my mind is that the physical search
35:06
of the property isn't even over.
35:08
Speaker 2: No, it's still ongoing.
35:09
Speaker 1: You'd think after nineteen ninety six they got everything, but
35:11
in twenty twenty five investigators actually brought certified, highly trained
35:15
cadaver dogs back on to portions of the Fox Hollow
35:18
property and the dogs alerted.
35:20
Speaker 2: Duel alerts from multiple certified dogs and specific areas of
35:23
the woods that is wild. Now, it's important to be
35:26
precise that specific targeted excavation in twenty twenty five following
35:31
the dog alerts did not yield additional human remains in
35:35
that particular spot.
35:36
Speaker 1: Okay, so they didn't find new bones right then, But the.
35:39
Speaker 2: Fact that dogs are alerting to volatile organic compounds associated
35:42
with human decomposition thirty years later absolutely underscores the point
35:46
that the site is still viewed as a highly active,
35:49
contaminated examination zone. The earth there still holds secrets.
35:53
Speaker 1: But even when the science works perfectly, even when they
35:56
pull off a miracle, it can still hit a brick wall.
35:58
And this is the part of the source material that
36:00
absolutely fascinated me. The phenotyping puzzle.
36:03
Speaker 2: Right this is where we see the incredible promise and
36:06
the devastating limitations of modern forensics.
36:09
Speaker 1: It's a bittersweet.
36:10
Speaker 2: Advanced technology was able to extract just enough viable DNA
36:14
from one single unidentified profile to create an estimate of
36:18
the victim's physical appearance. This is called DNA phenotyping.
36:22
Speaker 1: They literally reverse engineered a face from a shattered bone. Essentially, yes,
36:26
they figured out this specific victim had pale skin, brown
36:32
to dark auburn hair, and hazel brown eyes, and then,
36:36
using extensive forensic genetic genealogy, they take that profile and
36:40
trace his family lineage back centuries.
36:43
Speaker 2: It's unbelievable the.
36:44
Speaker 1: Source of state they identified a deceased father for this
36:48
victim through lineage tracing that goes all the way back
36:51
to the fourteenth century.
36:52
Speaker 2: It is a modern miracle of biological science and computational mapping.
36:57
To pull a fourteenth century ancestral line from a piece
37:00
of bone that was set on fire in nineteen ninety
37:02
three is astounding, it really is. But and this is
37:05
the heartbreaking caveat that Jellysin has to live with. Despite
37:08
tracing the family tree back to the Middle Ages, they
37:10
still do not know the victim's actual name or his
37:13
mother's name.
37:13
Speaker 1: They hit a dead end.
37:14
Speaker 2: They know what he looked like, they know where his
37:16
ancestors came from, but they don't know who.
37:18
Speaker 1: He was, which is where I have to ask a
37:20
deeply philosophical question about all this. Are we relying too
37:23
heavily on the magic of science when what we really
37:26
need is raw human memory. It is mind blowing that
37:30
we can trace a bone fragment to a fourteenth century
37:32
peasant in Europe, but we can't figure out the name
37:35
of a guy who went missing in Indiana thirty years ago.
37:39
Why is that gap so unbridgable.
37:41
Speaker 2: It is a highly valid point, and it perfectly illustrates
37:44
the absolute limit of current technology when historical comparative data
37:48
is absent. Think of science as the bridge builder. Science
37:52
can build the bridge. It can tell you the hair color,
37:55
the eye color, the deep ancestral roots. But a bridge
37:59
needs an anchor on both sides to be useful.
38:01
Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense.
38:02
Speaker 2: In this case, the family reference sample a DNA swab
38:05
from a living relative is the anchor. In the present day.
38:08
Without a direct comparison to a missing person's parent, sibling,
38:12
or child, that highly advanced, incredibly expensive bridge of science
38:15
just ends in bit air. It doesn't connect to a name.
38:18
Speaker 1: Which explains exactly why Jellison is practically pleading with the
38:21
public in these documentaries.
38:23
Speaker 2: He really is begging for help.
38:25
Speaker 1: He is actively begging families anywhere in the Midwest who
38:29
had a male relative go missing between the mid nineteen
38:31
eighties and the mid nineteen nineties to come forward and
38:35
submit a simple cheek swab for a DNA sample.
38:38
Speaker 2: And he emphasizes that even distant relatives can help build
38:41
these reference profiles. It's an urgent call to action so important.
38:45
The documentaries we discuss have generated more identifications and leads
38:48
in three years than the preceding quarter century achieved. But
38:52
it fundamentally requires that human element, the brave families willing
38:56
to step forward, to cross the finish line and put
38:58
a name to the remains.
39:00
Speaker 1: So as we wrap up this massive deep dive, let's
39:02
summarize exactly where we stand today. Okay, Foxhall of Farm
39:05
is not a closed chapter from a nineteen nineties true
39:08
crime book. It is a raw, active, breathing forensic investigation.
39:13
Speaker 2: Very much alive.
39:14
Speaker 1: Cutting edge DNA matches are finally restoring names to the dead.
39:17
Families like Coral Hallarins are finally getting a measure of resolution,
39:21
even if it comes thirty years too late.
39:23
Speaker 2: And simultaneously, fresh tips from the public and newly re
39:26
examined police files are completely complicating the long accepted historical narrative.
39:31
Speaker 1: The lone wolf theory is crumbling.
39:33
Speaker 2: The idea of Herbert Baumeister as a singular, brilliant Loane
39:37
Keller operating in a vacuum is being seriously and perhaps
39:41
permanently challenged by documentary evidence that suggests he may have
39:45
had logistical help, or at least that others were involved
39:48
in the periphery of these horrific crimes.
39:51
Speaker 1: The thick woods of Fox Hollow don't hide the exact
39:54
same secrets they used to in nineteen ninety six. But
39:57
the full, unvarnished accounting of who who died there, exactly
40:01
how many men there were, and whether Baumeister had accomplices
40:05
walking free, well, it means glaringly incomplete.
40:08
Speaker 2: It does. There is still so much work to do, and.
40:10
Speaker 1: As we close out today, I want to leave you
40:13
the listener with a chilling thought to mull over next
40:16
time you're driving through a quiet neighborhood. If an eighteen
40:19
acre estate in a wealthy, seemingly perfectly safe suburb could
40:23
hold ten thousand pieces of human evidence completely undetected for years, yeah,
40:27
and if a case that law enforcement effectively wrapped up
40:30
and put a bow on thirty years ago is suddenly
40:32
yielding secret accomplices, ignored police files, and brand new victims
40:36
just because one coroner decided to look closer.
40:39
Speaker 2: It makes you wonder.
40:40
Speaker 1: What others solved historical crimes in our own backyards are
40:43
just waiting for someone brave enough to pick up a
40:46
shovel and start digging again.
40:47
Speaker 2: It's a profound question and one that demands we constantly
40:51
keep questioning the tidy narratives we think we know.
40:54
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us on this deep dive into
40:56
the ongoing mysteries of the Fox Hollow Farm case. Keep
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your eyes open, stay curious, and we'll see you next time.